Post #SourceDatesAuthorPost
#1SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.4.0
 Vulajin
Roguecraft 101

1. Introduction


This post is currently up-to-date for patch 2.4.0.

This post is intended as a consolidated resource on rogue theorycraft with a heavy slant towards practical application in raiding. The overwhelming majority of the information contained herein relates to PvE, although I'm sure some of it may be useful in PvP. There is a rogue PvP thread located here: [Rogue] PVP Stat Standards/advice.

Please feel free to make suggestions for section changes/reorganization/content/whatever you want. Note that it's possible I've made errors in this post, or perhaps that the state of the rogue class changes over time. The remainder of this thread is available for the purpose of discussing such things. Please use it, that other rogue megathreads might be reduced in clutter somewhat.

Contents

  1. Introduction
  2. Aldriana's 7 Commandments of Rogue DPS
  3. Weapon Selection and Talent Builds
  4. Regarding the Hit and Expertise Caps
  5. Gear Selection
  6. Gem Selection
  7. Combo Point Cycles
  8. Buffs and Enchants
  9. Mechanics
  10. Miscellaneous Links

Acknowledgements

The following individuals have contributed to the creation of this resource. Thanks for your help!


Aldriana
Aquasheep
Hanos
Nite_Moogle
Olgas
Oscarvil
Shaker
sp00n
Tryss
Vitaminc

Abbreviations

In order to reduce any confusion, here is a list of abbreviations commonly used either in this post or in general by rogues:

CP - combo point
IP - Instant Poison
DP - Deadly Poison
DPE - damage per energy
SnD - Slice and Dice
T4 2pc - 2-piece tier 4 (Netherblade) set bonus
1s/5r - represents the combo point cycle of 1 CP, Slice and Dice, 5 CP, Rupture
Xs/5e - represents the general class of cycles where you gain some number of CP (X), Slice and Dice, 5 CP, Eviscerate

2. Aldriana's 7 Commandments of Rogue DPS

The first step to success as a raiding rogue is to adhere to the 7 commandments of rogue DPS. Following these guidelines is by far the most important step to improving your DPS, and if you do not follow them, then nothing in the rest of this post will help you.
  1. Don't die.
  2. Don't do anything that risks wiping the raid.
  3. Maximize your time on target.
  4. Don't let your energy cap out.
  5. Don't let SnD drop.
  6. Use one of the spreadsheets to figure out your best cycle; this will usually be the highest rupture uptime cycle that doesn't violate rule 4 or 5.
  7. Use your cooldowns.

3. Weapon Selection and Talent Builds

On main hand theory: in general, any considerations about weapon stats are subordinate to the fact of limited itemization. The selection of weapons provided supports a strategy of picking the highest DPS weapon of "slow" speed (1.7-1.9 for daggers, 2.6-2.8 for fists/maces/swords). Note: there are exceptions (e.g. [Talon of Azshara] > [Merciless Gladiator's Slicer]).

On offhand theory: for rogues with Combat Potency, a fast offhand is extremely important to increase the frequency of Combat Potency procs. For these builds, you can compare offhands by equating each 0.1 increment of speed to roughly 10 extra weapon DPS in favor of the faster weapon. For example, [Latro's Shifting Sword] is effectively 91.8 DPS when compared against [Fireguard]. Note that the stats on a weapon are still very important; for example, [Tracker's Blade] is superior to [Searing Sunblade] due to its stat allocation.

For non-Combat Potency rogues, offhand weapon speed is less important, but can still impact DPS via poison procs and sword spec procs. For any rogue with sword spec, each 0.1 increment of speed can be equated to roughly 5 extra weapon DPS in favor of the faster weapon. For rogues without sword spec, you can convert each 0.1 increment to 2 extra weapon DPS for the faster weapon. For combat Mutilate builds, offhand speed is nearly immaterial. This article points out that fast offhands suffer a very slight decrease in Mutilate damage relative to slow ones, most likely offsetting the increase in poison DPS.

On spec choice: in general, the maximum possible DPS can be achieved using swords. The current top personal DPS specs are combat swords and combat fist+sword. Combat mace+sword, combat fists, and combat daggers lag about 1-2% behind these builds in total DPS, with combat maces being about 3% back. Given the scarcity of weapons at most gear levels, it safe to "let your weapons choose your spec" -- that is, decide your spec based on whatever drops for you.

Hemo-based specs such as Hemo+swords (also called trispec Hemo) and Hemo+Deadliness have gained some popularity in recent months due to the damage debuff caused by the ability. Though most Hemo builds lag at least 5-6% behind combat builds in personal DPS, the raid DPS provided by the debuff often makes up a significant part of the deficit. Note that by or during tier 6 content, your personal DPS loss from being specced Hemo likely eclipses the raid DPS benefit of the debuff. With Hemo, you may again let your weapons choose your spec: sword-users should spec Hemo+swords, while those with other weapons should choose Hemo+Deadliness. Hemo specs involving Shadowstep, Cheat Death, Seal Fate, or Combat Potency are provably inferior to the two aforementioned specs, and should be avoided.

Note that we do not currently have a mathematical model for Mutilate DPS as accurate as those for other specs. Empirical evidence suggests that Mutilate DPS is inferior to combat swords, but still reasonably competitive, possibly on par with Hemo-based specs.

On talents: for PvE builds, the two most important talents in any tree are Relentless Strikes and Dual Wield Specialization (which therefore mandates Precision). For any combat build, mandatory talents are Improved Slice and Dice, Blade Flurry, Weapon Expertise, Aggression, Adrenaline Rush, Combat Potency, and Surprise Attacks, as well as an appropriate weapon specialization. Combat dagger specs additionally require Puncturing Wounds and Opportunity, while Sinister Strike builds require Improved Sinister Strike.

Hemo builds have a large number of optional talents, with mandatory talents being Serrated Blades and Hemorrhage. For Hemo+sword builds, note that one point of Sword Specialization and one point of Weapon Expertise are each superior to one point of Dirty Deeds for sustained DPS. For Hemo+Deadliness builds, Blade Flurry is superior to the fifth point in Deadliness.

Combat Mutilate builds also have a number of optional talents, with Puncturing Wounds, Cold Blood, Seal Fate, Vigor, Find Weakness, and Mutilate being required. Nearly all PvE-focused builds should carry the same initial point spread in Assassination: Malice, Ruthlessness, Murder, and Relentless Strikes. If there are still available points, spend them in Lethality, then Vile Poisons.

Sample builds:

Here are sample builds for each typical rogue raid spec. Keep in mind when looking at these which talents are required and which ones are up to taste.

Combat swords (or any Sinister Strike-based weapon spec) - Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
Combat fist+sword (or any dual weapon spec) - Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
Combat daggers - Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
Hemo+swords - Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
Hemo+Deadliness - Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
Combat Mutilate - Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (HELP! Need a new Mutilate template for 2.4)

4. Regarding the Hit and Expertise Caps

In the context of stats, the term "cap" refers to the point at which equipping more of a particular stat will have no additional value. For hit rating and expertise rating in particular, the cap usually discussed is for the effect of these stats on raid bosses. For example, once you reach or surpass the hit cap, you will never miss an attack against a raid boss unless you are under the effect of some debuff that reduces your hit chance (for example, Attumen the Huntsman's curse). There is no "minimum" chance to miss melee attacks, nor to be dodged or parried.

Your base chance to miss a raid boss while dual wielding is 28% with auto-attack on both hands. Your base chance to miss a special attack is 9%. For each 15.77 hit rating you equip, you reduce your chance to miss by 1%. Thus we can calculate hit caps for auto-attack and special attacks:

Auto-attack, 0/5 Precision: 442
Auto-attack, 5/5 Precision: 363
Special, 0/5 Precision: 142
Special, 5/5 Precision: 64

Your base chance to be dodged by a raid boss with any attack is thought to be 6.5%. For each 3.94 expertise rating you equip, you gain 1 expertise, reducing your chance to be dodged by 0.25% (thus it takes exactly 15.77 expertise rating to reduce your chance to be dodged by 1%). Thus, we can calculate expertise caps for various combinations of talents and racial abilities:

0/2 Weapon Expertise, non-Human: 103
1/2 Weapon Expertise, non-Human: 83
2/2 Weapon Expertise, non-Human: 64
0/2 Weapon Expertise, Human (wielding swords or maces): 83
1/2 Weapon Expertise, Human: 64
2/2 Weapon Expertise, Human: 44

The hit and expertise caps are NOT magic numbers that every rogue [or any rogue] must reach. Whether you're in T4 or T6, there are NO MAGIC NUMBERS for how much hit or expertise rating you "should" have. There is no special benefit to being capped with either stat, nor is there any special benefit to reaching an arbitrary threshold. The purpose of listing the caps here is so that you do not accidentally overshoot either cap by equipping too much hit rating or expertise rating. Always remember that any hit rating or expertise rating beyond the cap will have zero positive effect on your DPS.

5. Gear Selection

In this section, rather than listing comparisons between every piece of gear a rogue could conceivably obtain, I will describe a general-purpose system for comparing pieces of gear against one another. To compare two pieces, you can give each stat a "weight" proportional to its DPS contribution relative to other stats. Let's call this weight Equivalence Points (EP). We'll define 1 AP = 1 EP; that is, 1 attack power is worth exactly 1 Equivalence Point. Now we can use a spreadsheet to determine how much DPS a single point of any stat provides relative to a single point of attack power, and convert those directly into EP values.

To utilize the EP weights, simply take a piece of gear and multiply each stat bonus on that piece by the EP weight for that stat. In case of gem sockets, figure out how you would gem the piece in actual use (instructions for gemming are given in the following section), and multiply the stats provided by each gem by their respective EP weights. Any stat provided that does not have direct DPS value (e.g. stamina, dodge rating, resilience) can be valued at 0 EP. Examples of using the EP weights are provided below.

Note that all EP weights assume the following set of buffs: Leader of the Pack, 5/5 Mark of the Wild, Faerie Fire, Mangle, 5/5 Hunter's Mark, 0/5 Blessing of Might, Blessing of Kings, 2/2 Power Word: Fortitude, Bloodlust, 2/2 Strength of Earth Totem, 2/2 Windfury Totem, Unleashed Rage, Curse of Recklessness, Sunder Armor, 5/5 Battle Shout, Flask of Relentless Assault, Spicy Hot Talbuk. If you raid with more or fewer buffs, consult a spreadsheet to obtain more accurate EP weights.

Tier 4: the following is a table of EP values for sword (16/41+4), dagger (15/41/5), Hemo+sword (11/28/22), and Hemo+Deadliness (11/21/29) builds, assuming a projected tier 4 level of gear (heroics, Karazhan, Gruul, Magtheridon, pre-2.3 badge rewards).

Tier 4 EP    | 16/41+4  | 15/41/5  | 11/28/22 | 11/21/29 
Strength     |   1.00   |   1.00   |   1.00   |   1.00   
Agility      |   2.19   |   2.06   |   1.97   |   1.96   
Atk. Power   |   1.00   |   1.00   |   1.00   |   1.00   
Hit Rating   |   2.27   |   2.08   |   2.09   |   1.91   
Crit Rating  |   1.57   |   1.50   |   1.43   |   1.41   
Exp. Rating  |   2.54   |   2.37   |   2.43   |   2.25   
Haste Rating |   1.94   |   1.97   |   1.79   |   1.73   
Armor Pen.   |   0.30   |   0.33   |   0.30   |   0.29   
Meta Gem     |  79.64   | 101.48   |  74.49   |  73.35
Tier 5: the following is a table of EP values for the same builds, assuming a projected tier 5 level of gear (Zul'Aman through first two timed chests, Serpentshrine Cavern, Tempest Keep, 2.3 badge rewards):

Tier 5 EP    | 16/41+4  | 15/41/5  | 11/28/22 | 11/21/29 
Strength     |   1.00   |   1.00   |   1.00   |   1.00   
Agility      |   2.15   |   2.09   |   2.01   |   2.00   
Atk. Power   |   1.00   |   1.00   |   1.00   |   1.00   
Hit Rating   |   2.32   |   2.20   |   2.19   |   2.00   
Crit Rating  |   1.64   |   1.56   |   1.51   |   1.49   
Exp. Rating* |   2.61   |   2.55   |   2.55   |   2.35   
Haste Rating |   1.95   |   2.03   |   1.85   |   1.78   
Armor Pen.   |   0.34   |   0.36   |   0.34   |   0.32   
Meta Gem     |  93.88   | 115.14   |  88.23   |  87.10
Tier 6: the following is a table of EP values for the same builds, assuming a projected tier 6 level of gear (Zul'Aman third timed chest, Hyjal Summit, Black Temple).

Tier 6 EP    | 16/41+4  | 15/41/5  | 11/28/22 | 11/21/29 
Strength     |   1.00   |   1.00   |   1.00   |   1.00   
Agility      |   2.16   |   2.10   |   2.04   |   2.02   
Atk. Power   |   1.00   |   1.00   |   1.00   |   1.00   
Hit Rating   |   2.40   |   2.22   |   2.21   |   2.00   
Crit Rating  |   1.67   |   1.58   |   1.54   |   1.52   
Exp. Rating* |   2.74   |   2.59   |   2.59   |   2.46   
Haste Rating |   2.16   |   2.20   |   2.00   |   1.93   
Armor Pen.   |   0.38   |   0.40   |   0.38   |   0.37   
Meta Gem     |  99.94   | 121.26   |  94.12   |  92.81
Example comparison: here's an example of using the T5 EP weights for a combat swords build to compare [Shoulderpads of the Stranger] to [Shoulderpads of Dancing Blades]:

Shoulderpads of the Stranger
303 Armor ---> 0 EP
+33 Agility ---> 33 * 2.15 = 70.95 EP
+28 Stamina ---> 0 EP
[ ] Red: +4 Agi / +4 Hit ---> 4 * 2.15 + 4 * 2.32 = 17.88 EP
Socket Bonus: +2 Agility ---> 2 * 2.15 = 4.30 EP
Equip: Improves critical strike rating by 16. ---> 16 * 1.67 = 26.72 EP
Equip: Increases your expertise rating by 10. ---> 10 * 2.74 = 27.40 EP
Equip: Increases attack power by 60. ---> 60 EP
Total: 70.95 + 17.88 + 4.30 + 26.72 + 27.40 + 60 = 207.25 EP

Shoulderpads of Dancing Blades
303 Armor ---> 0 EP
+33 Agility ---> 33 * 2.15 = 70.95 EP
+39 Stamina ---> 0 EP
Equip: Improves hit rating by 16. ---> 16 * 2.32 = 37.12 EP
Equip: Increases attack power by 68. ---> 68 EP
Total: 70.95 + 37.12 + 68 = 176.07 EP

These two items make a good comparison for two reasons. First, with a difference as large as 30 EP, you can reasonably confident that the [Shoulderpads of the Stranger] are better for just about any combat sword rogue than the [Shoulderpads of Dancing Blades]. However, they also illustrate one potential flaw -- expertise rating comes in increments of 1, but expertise itself only increases in increments of 0.25% (~3.94 expertise rating). For example, if you have 0 expertise rating, [Shoulderpads of the Stranger] by themselves will only increase your expertise to 2, and [Grips of Deftness] by themselves will only increase your expertise to 3. However, equipping both items together will increase your expertise to 6. Keep this effect in mind when using EP weights for expertise.

On stat weight scaling: each stat's EP value will tend to scale with your gear, talents, and raid buffs. Sinister Calling will increase the EP value of agility by about 15%, while Blessing of Kings will increase the EP values of agility and strength by 10%. Deadliness will increase the DPS contribution of strength, agility, and attack power, which will have the effect of reducing the EP values of any other stats. On-hit procs such as Windfury, Mongoose, Combat Potency, and [Dragonspine Trophy] will all increase the values of hit and expertise ratings, while [Relentless Earthstorm Diamond] and Mace Specialization will both increase the value of crit rating. All of the EP weights given above are examples based on a theoretical raid composition and gear/talent setup; for the most exact valuation of stats, you should always consult a spreadsheet.

On trinkets: [Dragonspine Trophy] is the best trinket in the game for combat rogues, currently. [Shard of Contempt] is a very close second, as long as you can make use of the expertise. Humans wielding swords or maces can only make use of the Shard if they have no other items with expertise rating. Other races (or humans with other weapon types) can make use of it providing they have at most one of the following items: [Belt of One-Hundred Deaths], [Dragonscale-Encrusted Longblade], [Slayer's Boots], or any other item with more than 20 expertise rating. The Blackened Naaru Sliver trinket has not yet been seen in-game, therefore we have no idea how it compares to these.

[Warp-Spring Coil] is the next best option, though it does not reach this level of relative power until T6 and Sunwell gear levels. [Ashtongue Talisman of Lethality] and [Madness of the Betrayer] are next, then [Berserker's Call] and [Tsunami Talisman]. [Bloodlust Brooch], [Darkmoon Card: Crusade], [Abacus of Violent Odds], [Hourglass of the Unraveller], and [Icon of Unyielding Courage] are all good pre-raiding options. [Romulo's Poison Vial] is decent if you have plenty of room under the hit cap. As with main hand weapons, because of scarcity it's often safe to choose trinkets on a policy of "whatever drops first."

6. Gem Selection

On meta gems: you want a headpiece with a meta gem socket. Use [Relentless Earthstorm Diamond] in that socket. [Thundering Skyfire Diamond] is inferior due to a ~40 second cooldown, 6 second duration, and low proc rate, but it is the second-best option for the socket. [Swift Skyfire Diamond] is nowhere near as good as either of these, and should be avoided.

On combat gem selection: only gem for socket bonuses that provide offensive stats (hit/crit rating, agility, AP), and only if they are achievable using solely red and yellow gems. If you are socketing for a bonus, always use [Rigid Dawnstone] in yellow sockets and [Glinting Noble Topaz] in red sockets, unless you are nearing the hit cap, in which case use [Glinting Noble Topaz] in yellow sockets and [Delicate Living Ruby] in red sockets.

Pay attention to your meta gem socket requirement of 2 blue gems. Only use [Shifting Nightseye] to fulfill the requirement, and only as many as necessary. If you are not socketing for a bonus, always use [Rigid Dawnstone] or [Glinting Noble Topaz], switching to [Delicate Living Ruby] if you reach the hit cap.

On Hemo gem selection: for Hemo+sword builds, gem very much the same as you would for combat. For Hemo+Deadliness, prefer [Delicate Living Ruby] for red sockets (or for all sockets, if not gemming for a bonus) and [Glinting Noble Topaz] for yellow sockets. [Shifting Nightseye] should still be the gem of choice for satisfying the 2 blue gem requirement of RED or TSD. Only if you know for certain you will never be getting Blessing of Kings, [Bright Living Ruby] and [Balanced Nightseye] are appropriate gems for a Hemo+Deadliness build.

On Mutilate gem selection: Mutilate builds should prefer [Delicate Living Ruby] for red sockets (or for all sockets, if not gemming for a bonus) and [Glinting Noble Topaz] for yellow sockets. Use [Shifting Nightseye] to satisfy meta gem requirements.

On unique gems: several BoP gems are available from heroics, jewelcrafting, and PvP which may be used in place of any of the gems mentioned above. The following gems may be obtained and used in any socket where a rare ("blue" quality) gem of the same color would normally be placed. Note that the PvP and jewelcrafting gems listed below are also unique-equip, meaning you may only wear one in any given set of gear.

On epic gemming: follow the same gemming rules as above, substituting the epic versions ([Delicate Crimson Spinel], [Glinting Pyrestone], [Rigid Lionseye], [Shifting Shadowsong Amethyst]) where appropriate. Note that [Crimson Spinel] are still in high demand from just about every caster class, therefore if you would like to use them, you should consider using your [Badge of Justice] stock. Note that epic gems are only available for purchase via badges once the Isle of Quel'danas has been fully opened on your realm.

On incorrect gemming: regardless of spec, the following gems are strictly inferior to available alternatives and should not be used by any rogue: [Bold Living Ruby], [Wicked Noble Topaz], [Smooth Dawnstone], [Jagged Talasite].

7. Combo Point Cycles

"Combo point cycle" refers to the algorithm used by a rogue to determine what finishers to use, and in what order, during sustained combat (e.g. against a raid boss). A combo point cycle revolves around keeping Slice and Dice active as close to 100% of the time as possible while also keeping Rupture active as much as possible. Eviscerate should only be used if the target is close to death, if the target is bleed-immune, or if you already have Slice and Dice and Rupture up with plenty of time left. See the Mechanics section for more about Eviscerate.

Combo point cycles are usually expressed in the format "1s/5r" or "3s/5s/5e" (for example). Each number-letter pair indicates a finisher to be used at a certain number of CP. An 's' represents Slice and Dice, an 'r' represents Rupture, and an 'e' represents Eviscerate. Thus, 1s/5r represents a cycle where you gain 1 CP, use Slice and Dice, gain 5 CP, use Rupture, and then repeat; and 3s/5s/5e represents a cycle where you gain 3 CP, use Slice and Dice, gain 5 CP, use Slice and Dice again, gain 5 CP, use Eviscerate, and then repeat. For maximum performance, do not deviate from the cycle unless you are forced to stop attacking the target.

On combat cycles: combat builds using swords, fists, maces, or any combination thereof will generally use a 4s/5r cycle, unless the rogue has T4 2pc, in which case he should use 1s/5r. If the target is immune to bleed effects, use 5s/5e (or 2s/5e, if you have T4 2pc). Combat dagger builds should use a 3s/5s/5r cycle, unless the rogue has T4 2pc, in which case he should use 1s/3r. If the target is immune to bleed effects, use 3s/5s/5e (or 1s/3e, if you have T4 2pc).

On Hemo cycles: Hemo builds should use a 5s/5r cycle, unless the rogue has T4 2pc, in which case he should use 2s/5r. Substitute Eviscerate in place of Rupture if the target is immune to bleed effects.

On Mutilate cycles: Mutilate doesn't use a fixed cycle because its CP generation can vary widely. Rather, a Mutilate build uses a general policy of "3+" or "4+", performing finishers after a certain minimum number of CP (either 3 or 4) have been accumulated. Finishers used are SnD, Rupture, and Eviscerate/Envenom, in order of priority (note: see the Mechanics section regarding Envenom). Be sure to balance finisher usage to get the most value out of Find Weakness procs.

On movement and on-the-fly cycles: in many fights, rogues will be required to run in and out of melee range with the boss, or will be prevented at times from entering melee range to continue their cycle. Depending on the length of time you'll be out of melee range, there are many ways to handle these situations. If the interruption will only be brief (less than 10 seconds between leaving melee range and reentering it), your energy bar should be able to absorb the delay and you can continue your cycle when you get back into melee range as if nothing had happened. Otherwise, you should either burn your CP immediately on a Rupture (or Eviscerate, in the case of a bleed-immune target) or save them for a Slice and Dice when you next enter melee. In some fights, it is impossible to predict how often you will be interrupted or for how long. In these situations, your best bet is to get Slice and Dice up immediately upon starting melee and keep it up at all costs, only Rupturing if you have extra combo points to burn.

8. Buffs and Enchants

On raid buffs: the standard raid group for a rogue is typically feral druid + DPS warrior + enhance shaman + rogue + rogue (or something similar). The biggest party-based DPS buffs for a combat build are Battle Shout (5/5 improved), Unleashed Rage, Grace of Air/Windfury (see further below), Leader of the Pack, in that order. If your raid is short on paladins, Salvation > Might > Kings. If your raid doesn't have an enhancement shaman, a resto shaman in the group dropping totems is the next best thing (Unleashed Rage is a big loss, but Windfury Totem and Grace of Air Totem provide nearly their full benefit even if the shaman doesn't have the talents for them).

On self-buffs: [Flask of Relentless Assault] is the best DPS option for your elixir slots; however, [Elixir of Major Agility] is very close behind. In general, choose the flask for progression and the elixir for farm content. Your best food option is [Spicy Hot Talbuk] if you're combat or Hemo+swords, [Warp Burger] otherwise. [Haste Potion] are extremely powerful if used on cooldown, but save your potion timer if you know you'll be taking a lot of damage. If you're a leatherworker, [Drums of Battle] > [Drums of War].

On poisons and Windfury: for PvE, always choose DP on the offhand. If you are in a group with a shaman and you're combat, you'll get more DPS from Windfury as opposed to Grace of Air + IP. However, the difference is not as dramatic as it is for, say, a DPS warrior. If your group contains a DPS warrior, Windfury Totem will usually be dropped. Otherwise, if less than half the group is rogues, Grace of Air Totem will probably be dropped and you should use IP on the MH. Always check with your shaman if you're unsure what will be dropped. For Mutilate, Grace of Air Totem might be preferable, but Windfury Totem is still quite powerful. Note that dual DP is a waste for all builds except Mutilate, and only if you use Envenom. For all builds, [Adamantite Sharpening Stone] are inferior unless the target is immune to poisons.

On weapon enchants: Mongoose is currently considered the only viable weapon enchant for rogues. 20 agility is inferior, even on the offhand. Executioner was once thought to out-scale Mongoose as a main hand enchant towards the end of T6 content, when the rogue obtained a decent amount of passive armor penetration. However, this observation was based on a bugged model. The circumstances under which Executioner does out-scale Mongoose are now thought to be so restrictive as to rule out use of the enchant for PvE purposes.

On other enchants: [Greater Inscription of Vengeance] (Aldor) is very slightly better than [Greater Inscription of the Blade] (Scryer). 15 agility to gloves is superior to 26 attack power. If you aren't using [Swift Skyfire Diamond] in your helmet, then a solid case can be made for getting Cat's Swiftness to boots instead of Dexterity (you lose 6 agility, but gain 8% run speed -- see this post by Aldriana for a more detailed look at boot enchants). If you are an enchanter, Stats should be your ring enchant of choice, unless you are daggers, in which case Striking will come out very slightly ahead. Always make sure you have [Glyph of Ferocity] on your helm, 12 agility on your cloak, 6 stats on your chest, 24 attack power on your bracers, and [Nethercobra Leg Armor] (or [Cobrahide Leg Armor] if you're poor) on your legs.

9. Mechanics

On haste: haste effects provide extra attacks per time unit equal to their magnitude; so Slice and Dice provides 30% extra attacks over its duration compared to without it. Percentage-based haste effects are multiplicative; however, rating-based haste effects (e.g. [Dragonspine Trophy]) are all added together into a total haste rating before being converted (at a rate of 15.77 rating to 1%) into a single percentage-based haste. Thus, separate percentage-based hastes increase one another's effects, while separate rating-based hastes do not do the same. As a result, coordinating rating-based hastes (e.g. trying to time a Haste Potion and Abacus of Violent Odds simultaneously with a Dragonspine Trophy proc and Dragonstrike proc) will not have any special effects. However, coordinating percentage-based hastes (e.g. hitting Blade Flurry together with Bloodlust) will increase your benefits.

On cooldown usage: because of the way different stats scale with one another, it is generally preferable to use DPS-increasing cooldowns simultaneously rather than one at a time. This post and this post demonstrate the increased effect possible by simultaneously triggering cooldowns, especially haste-based effects. In general, you should use cooldowns as they become available. However, in some cases of cooldowns with staggered timers (e.g. Blade Flurry and Troll Berserking), it may be best, when the longer cooldown becomes available, to delay it slightly until the shorter one also becomes available. See this post for more detail.

On Eviscerate: at nearly all reachable levels of gear, Rupture will be superior to Eviscerate on any target that isn't immune to bleeds. At 5 CP, Rupture deals 1000 damage plus 24% of your AP for 25 energy, or 40 damage plus 0.96% of your AP per energy. At 5 CP and with T5 2pc, Eviscerate deals 1245 damage plus 15% of your AP for 35 energy, or roughly 35.57 damage plus 0.43% of your AP per energy. Applying 3/3 Improved Eviscerate and 3/3 Aggression (121% modifier), 40% crit and RED (142.4% modifier), and 30% armor reduction (assuming a typical debuffed raid boss), Eviscerate comes to 42.90 damage plus 0.52% of your AP per energy. Thus, Eviscerate holds an advantage of 2.90 base damage per energy, but Rupture gains an additional 0.44% of your AP. At this rate, it takes only 656 AP for Rupture to overcome Eviscerate's base advantage. Simply, in any situation where you can Rupture, you should Rupture.

On Shiv: Shiv cannot be dodged or parried, and like other offhand attacks, it can proc Combat Potency. Even so, its damage per energy will be inferior to Sinister Strike or Backstab almost regardless of stats, largely due to the offhand damage penalty and the lack of any static damage boost built into the ability. This post and this addendum contain some sample calculations of Shiv DPE. Shiv spam with DP offhand and Envenom is inferior to Rupture-based cycles in most raid/group situations (see this post).

On Envenom: Envenom damage is not mitigated by armor, and can be boosted by Stormstrike, Misery (shadow priest debuff), and Vile Poisons. However, in all but the most favorable circumstances (for example, extremely high crit, T5 2pc, RED, 5/5 Vile, Stormstrike and Misery both up), Envenom's DPE will be inferior to Rupture. The more apt comparison to make is Envenom versus Eviscerate. At 5 CP and untalented (talents can boost both abilities by roughly the same: Envenom by 20%, Eviscerate by 21%), Envenom 2 deals 900 base damage plus 15% of AP, while Eviscerate deals 1045 damage plus 15% of AP. However, Eviscerate damage is mitigated by armor, which is typically roughly 30% damage reduction by a raid boss. Thus, Envenom is, at base, slightly better straight-up DPE than Eviscerate. However, Envenom results in the loss of your entire DP stack, resulting in a drop of roughly 45 DPS (before Vile Poisons) for as long as it takes to get the full stack up again. A Mutilate build running dual DP can get enough DPS out of Envenom and DP to make it worthwhile to use. However, for other builds, if you must choose between Eviscerate and Envenom, choose Eviscerate.

10. Miscellaneous Links

Rogue Gear Spreadsheet

Last edited by Vulajin : 03/25/08 at 2:24 PM.
#2SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Nite_Moogle
1) How does the human racial +5 sword skill interact with Weapon Expertise? I was under the impression that humans had 355 skill with swords, and if they took 1/2 Weapon Expertise, it would have no effect, but if they took 2/2 Weapon Expertise, they'd increase to 360. Is this correct or not?
These abilities stack. Racial bonus + 2/2 weapon expertise = 365 weapon skill.
#3SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
 Shaker
Weapon speed on mutilate does "matter" but the degree to which it matters is not very large - Kalman had a post back in pf's old thread (I believe) which showed that if you have a reasonable upgrade DPSwise from an offhand dagger, the speed was not a SIGNIFICANT factor to its performance. However, given equal statted/dps daggers, the slower offhand will do (slightly) more damage.

General BT gem rarity from what I can tell from other posts is that the red gems (Crimson Spinel) are in very high demand, so +10 agi gems for rogues aren't a high priority. Given that Rigid Lionseye and Glinting Pyrestones are damn near the same level of DPS and in less demand from other classes, these are excellent choices for the T6 rogue to pursue. Things may change with the Sunwell, depending on changing number/type of sockets on the gear there, and of course, what sort of stats the gear there has.


(edit: not so good at gem names)

Last edited by Shaker : 10/10/07 at 5:08 PM.
#4SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3aquasheep
Originally Posted by Vulajin View Post

1) I'm planning to write the gem selection portion without respect to any issues of actually obtaining the gems, i.e. in Hyjal and Black Temple. If anyone with Hyjal/BT experience could provide some information about what gems are common or rare, what gems are in high demand by other classes, and anything else I should know about Hyjal/BT gemming, I'd greatly appreciate it.
Not sure how it is for other guilds, but Crimson Spinels are in huge demand from our casters; if I ever wanted to gem 10agi or 20ap for whatever reason, I would have a lot of competition. We seem to have plenty of Lionseyes and Pyrestones though, so 10hit, 10crit, or 5agi/5hit is no problem. 10hit does require your JCs to be Revered with Hyjal, so any gear early on in the instance will have to make do with something else.
#5SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Oscarvil
Here's some stuff about mutilate offhand from Vitaminc.

Rogue Theorycrap: Mutilate, Part 4: Myth on Off-hand Weapon Choices

The gist is that slow offhand does matter but not so much due to the +101 offhand modifier mutilate gets.
#6SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Vulajin
This is about as much as I'm going to get in here tonight, there's a hockey game to watch and then a raid to run. Please post any suggestions/additions/corrections/whatever and I'll take care of them after raid or tomorrow.
#7SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3winst
it would be nice to see some math on the actual value of haste, as i'm still (yes even after plugging it into the spreadsheets) questioning my band of devastation and shadow walkers cord over other parts sporting more raw stats.
#8SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Oscarvil
How about this for a combat mutilate (41/20/0) build?

There are a few filler points in the middle of the assassination tree. You can forgo either of Fleet Footed or Quick Recovery to put points into Improved Poisons, Imp. Kidney Shot or Master Poisoner but these are really minimal changes based on the flavour of your playstyle.

Fleet Footed is a decent dps increase (even more so in 2.3 where it's a 15% speed increase) whenever you're running a lot in an encounter and Quick Recovery is a small dps increase with the bonus of your bandages ticking for just that little bit more which is why I prefer them.

In the combat tree the main talents are Imp. Slice and Dice, Precision and Dual Wield Spec. with the others being fillers. I chose Imp. SS and Gouge because a lot of the time you can't be behind the mob and this enables to build CP more cheaply for a KS to regain position or gives you a little more time to regen energy after a Gouge when regaining position. These are probably as useful in a raid situation as Lightning Reflexes so it's pretty much your choice what to take.

Other builds such as 41/15/5 to get Opportunity or 41/0/20 for Serrated Blades are not recommended for PvE DPS due to the fact that Opportunity nor Serrated Blades can give the DPS increase that Imp. SnD, Precision or Dual Wield Spec give.

There should be something said in the Mutilate section about cycles. It is more complicated running Mut cycles because of the ever-changing number of CP that you generate, coupled with the fact that you want to maximise the benefit of your 10 seconds of Expose Weakness after every finisher. When I played Mut I ran a 4+ cycle, meaning every time I got 4 or more CP I threw a finisher. For the most part the finishers are SnD and Rupture but sometimes you end up with 4 CP and a long time left on your Rupture. In this situation you can either wait for the Rupture to tick off (letting your energy to regen, but not over 100) before refreshing it, otherwise an Eviscerate can be used to spend the CP.

Windfury, poisons and Mutulate: I'm not sure what the optimal setup for a Mut rogue is nowadays. Before the WF nerf it was no question what you used on your mainhand but I have read some people talking about running with dual Deadly Poison and using Envenom over eviscerate/rupture. Someone else should elucidate the intricacies of this problem as I haven't played Mut for a while.

If this is all total crap please educate me (-:
#9SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Vulajin
Gear and gem sections added. They seem a bit light to me, maybe because there's not a lot to discuss, but let me know if there's anything missing. The AP equivalency numbers were pulled from Aldriana's spreadsheet using the best gear I could put together only from tier 4 level. The numbers given for my current gear seem to be fairly close to these, so I assume they're fairly good, but please yell at me if you disagree.
#10SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Tyran
It looks like you made some mistakes in the talent spec templates:

The combat swords, combat fist and combat mace specs have 42 points in combat while it is possible to take out 1 filler point (Nerves of Steel/Endurance) and max Lethality instead (4/5 in your templates).
For the fist+sword template you forgot to max Combat Potency (take points out of Lightning Reflexes, Endurance).

Last edited by Tyran : 10/11/07 at 6:30 AM.
#11SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3koaschten
For combat swords i prefer something more along Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft especially because you dont need the evasion cooldown and 10% stun and fear resist is definitly more dps. One could argue now about 2/2 nerves of steel and 3/5 vile poisons or 1/2 nerves of steel and 4/5 vile poisons.
#12SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Vulajin
I consider both of your comments (except forgetting to max CP in the fist+sword template) to be more of "taste"-based things (and I'll freely admit I made those templates based on my taste, which certainly doesn't agree with everybody's). How about if I rewrite the talent section a bit to identify the key talents and which ones are optional?
#13SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Tyran
Originally Posted by Vulajin View Post
I consider both of your comments (except forgetting to max CP in the fist+sword template) to be more of "taste"-based things (and I'll freely admit I made those templates based on my taste, which certainly doesn't agree with everybody's). How about if I rewrite the talent section a bit to identify the key talents and which ones are optional?
I agree there isn't any clearly superior choice for those last points, I just assumed it was a mistake because you had 5/5 Lethality in the fist+sword build but not in the other builds
Identifying key talents would probably be the way to go. They are supposed to be templates after all and not exact guides for where to put each point.
#14SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Suesse
Your gem info is pretty good an concise right now. [Shifting Tanzanite] is a red/blue gem.
#15SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
sp00n
Some theorycrafting stuff you might or might not want to add:


Haste formula

Haste is multiplicative from talents (SnD, Blade Flurry, & Mongoose), and additive from haste rating.
That means, all haste ratings are first added together, and then multiplicated with the remaining haste factors.
Hasted Speed = Weapon Speed / ( (1+(Haste 1 %/100)) * (1+Haste 2 %/100)) * (1+(((Haste Rating 1 + Haste Rating 2 + ... )/100)/15.77)))

Examples: 2.6 weapon speed
  • SnD:
    2.6 / ( 1+(30/100) )
    = 2.0 hasted speed
    ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
  • SnD + Blade Flurry:
    2.6 / ( (1+(30/100)) * (1+(20/100)) )
    = 1.667 hasted speed
    ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
  • SnD + Blade Flurry + 2x Mongoose + Abacus of Violent Odds + Haste Potion:
    2.6 / ( (1+(30/100)) * (1+(20/100)) * (1+(2/100)) * (1+(2/100)) * (1+(((260 + 400)/100)/15.77)) )
    = 1.129 hasted speed
    ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
There is no cap on how fast you can haste your weapon.




Damage calculation for special attacks

Backstab
  • without talents:
    ( (DAMAGE+(AP/14*1.7)) * 1.5 + 255 )
  • with Opportunity:
    ( (DAMAGE+(AP/14*1.7)) * 1.5 + 255 ) * 1.2
  • without Opportunity but with Surprise Attacks:
    ( (DAMAGE+(AP/14*1.7)) * 1.5 + 255 ) * (1 + 0.1)
  • with Opportunity & Surprise Attacks:
    ( (DAMAGE+(AP/14*1.7)) * 1.5 + 255 ) * (1.2 + 0.1)


Sinister Strike
  • without talents:
    ( (DAMAGE+(AP/14*2.4)) + 98 )
  • with Aggression:
    ( (DAMAGE+(AP/14*2.4)) + 98 ) * 1.06
  • without Aggression but with Surprise Attacks:
    ( (DAMAGE+(AP/14*2.4)) + 98 ) * (1 + 0.1)
  • with Aggression & Surprise Attacks:
    ( (DAMAGE+(AP/14*2.4)) + 98 ) * (1.06 + 0.1)


Mutilate
  • without talents:
    ( (DAMAGE+(AP/14*1.7)) + 101 ) * POISONED [* 1.5]
  • with Opportunity:
    ( (DAMAGE+(AP/14*1.7)) + 101 ) * 1.2 * POISONED [* 1.5]
Offhand [Mutilate]
>> Is the behaviour first mentioned by Kalman here still in place? <<
If yes, then:
  • without talents:
    ( (DAMAGE+(AP/14*1.7)) * 0.5 + 101 ) * POISONED [* 1.5]
  • with Opportunity:
    ( (DAMAGE+(AP/14*1.7)) * 0.5 + 101 ) * 1.2 * POISONED [* 1.5]
  • with Dual Wield:
    ( (DAMAGE+(AP/14*1.7)) * 0.5 + 101 ) * 1.5 * POISONED [* 1.5]
Making Dual Wield spec only slightly less effective than Opportunity in terms of total Mutilate damage.
But Dual Wield spec also increases your white DPS, thus overall it wins against Opportunity.


Hemorrhage
Hemorrhage is still not normalized, so a slower weapon means higher damage.
( (DAMAGE+(AP/14*WEAPONSPEED) ) + 10)


Eviscerate
  • 1 CP: 245 to 365 + (AP * 0.03)
  • 2 CP: 430 to 550 + (AP * 0.06)
  • 3 CP: 615 to 735 + (AP * 0.09)
  • 4 CP: 800 to 920 + (AP * 0.12)
  • 5 CP: 985 to 1105 + (AP * 0.15)

Rupture
  • 1 CP: 8 sec/4 ticks - Total damage: ( 324 + 4*0.01 * AP)
  • 2 CP: 10 sec/5 ticks - Total damage: ( 460 + 5*0.02 * AP)
  • 3 CP: 12 sec/6 ticks - Total damage: ( 618 + 6*0.03 * AP)
  • 4 CP: 14 sec/7 ticks - Total damage: ( 798 + 7*0.03 * AP)
  • 5 CP: 16 sec/8 ticks - Total damage: (1000 + 8*0.03 * AP)
Serrated Blades is 130% and Mangle another 130%.




Damage reduction through armor

All physical attacks suffer from damage reduction through armor.

This is the simplified formula do calculate damage reduction:
  • vs. level 70: (Armor / (Armor + 10557.5)) * 100
  • vs. level 73: (Armor / (Armor + 11960)) * 100

Most boss mobs in TBC seem to have either 6200 or 7700 armor, setting them to 34.14% resp. 39.17% damage reduction (before Sunder Armor, etc).

To calculate damage reduction against any other target's level:
  • Enemies 01-59: Damage Reduction % = ( Armor / ( Armor + 400 + 85 * Target Level) ) * 100
  • Enemies 60-73: Damage Reduction % = ( Armor / ( Armor + 400 + 85 * (Target Level + 4.5 * (Target Level-59)) ) ) * 100

Last edited by sp00n : 10/19/07 at 10:11 AM.
#16SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Gryzemuis
Maybe a few words about poisons and shaman totems would be useful ?
#17SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Anath
I have noticed that a great many Rogues skip Master Poisoner in their Mutilate builds. Does anyone know why? I noticed in WWS logs that Rogues at the hit cap were seeing poison resists, so I assume it's governed by Nature Resistance. Are these resists level-inherent resistances that can't be ignored or would Master Poisoner take them off the table?
#18SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Shaker
Note that for a combat Mutilate build, offhand spec matters much less.
Change to "offhand speed".

Also, the gemming recommendations should be noted to be aimed at COMBAT rogues, as +hit will lose a ton of value from not having either DW Spec or Combat Potency. I'm not 100% sure what those rogues should gem for (well, I know Agility is good, but not sure if 1 crit rating will be better or worse than 1 hit rating).
#19SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3NvidiaN
Vulajin, you stated in the 'gear selection' section that besides haste, for which there is no real itemization, increasing hit rating is the best option for increasing DPS. Then in the 'regarding the hit cap' area you say, "Hit is an extremely valuable stat for rogues, but single-mindedly increasing hit at the expense of other stats will hurt your DPS output". I'm wondering how this can be possible if the first item is true. I was hoping you could elaborate on this, as I'm currently having issues with the spreadsheet.
#20SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3aquasheep
Originally Posted by NvidiaN View Post
Vulajin, you stated in the 'gear selection' section that besides haste, for which there is no real itemization, increasing hit rating is the best option for increasing DPS. Then in the 'regarding the hit cap' area you say, "Hit is an extremely valuable stat for rogues, but single-mindedly increasing hit at the expense of other stats will hurt your DPS output". I'm wondering how this can be possible if the first item is true. I was hoping you could elaborate on this, as I'm currently having issues with the spreadsheet.
An example I use to illustrate this is: let's say you are far below the hit cap and are trying to choose between two upgrades to your gear. If one upgrade gives you +1 AP and the other gives you +1 hit rating, you should choose +1 to hit, since it is clearly the better option.

If on the other hand, one upgrade gives you +100 AP and the other gives you +1 hit rating, you would be foolish to choose the +1 hit; regardless of how far below the cap you are, 100 AP is still a better upgrade.



It's an extreme case, but many people seem to think that the hit cap is the only thing that maximizes their DPS, and make the wrong choices in these kinds of tradeoffs without realizing it.
#21SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Vulajin
Originally Posted by NvidiaN View Post
Vulajin, you stated in the 'gear selection' section that besides haste, for which there is no real itemization, increasing hit rating is the best option for increasing DPS. Then in the 'regarding the hit cap' area you say, "Hit is an extremely valuable stat for rogues, but single-mindedly increasing hit at the expense of other stats will hurt your DPS output". I'm wondering how this can be possible if the first item is true. I was hoping you could elaborate on this, as I'm currently having issues with the spreadsheet.
Hm, those two statements do sound contradictory. What I'm getting at is that if you have two pieces of gear and one just happens to have more hit on it, doesn't make the piece with more hit better. In other words, even if you're not hit-capped, you should always consider the overall stats on an item, and not just the hit rating. Just by way of a simple example, I would expect most rogues would prefer Warp-Spring Coil over Romulo's Poison Vial, even if they're not hit-capped.

Re: everyone else who posted anything overnight or this afternoon, I'll be getting around to it all shortly.
#22SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 songster
Originally Posted by NvidiaN View Post
Vulajin, you stated in the 'gear selection' section that besides haste, for which there is no real itemization, increasing hit rating is the best option for increasing DPS. Then in the 'regarding the hit cap' area you say, "Hit is an extremely valuable stat for rogues, but single-mindedly increasing hit at the expense of other stats will hurt your DPS output". I'm wondering how this can be possible if the first item is true. I was hoping you could elaborate on this, as I'm currently having issues with the spreadsheet.
All this means is that although 1 hit rating is more valuable than 1 Agility, given the choice between 5 hit rating and 10 agility, take the agility.
#23SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Vulajin
Several sections modified based on suggestions, combo point cycle section added. Input is always appreciated, particularly where I have placed the text "(HELP!)" with some question or request for clarification.

Originally Posted by Anath
I have noticed that a great many Rogues skip Master Poisoner in their Mutilate builds. Does anyone know why? I noticed in WWS logs that Rogues at the hit cap were seeing poison resists, so I assume it's governed by Nature Resistance. Are these resists level-inherent resistances that can't be ignored or would Master Poisoner take them off the table?
I believe that Master Poisoner comes out to be worth slightly fewer additional poison procs per hit than Improved Poisons. As to why one would not take both, I don't necessarily know.
#24SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Dontmindme
Originally Posted by sp00n View Post
Some theorycrafting stuff you might or might not want to add:
Damage calculation for special attacks

Backstab
  • without talents:
    ( (DAMAGE+(AP/14*1.7)) * 1.5 + 255 )
  • with Opportunity:
    ( (DAMAGE+(AP/14*1.7)) * 1.5 + 255 ) * 1.2
  • with Opportunity & Surprise Attacks:
    ( (DAMAGE+(AP/14*1.7)) * 1.5 + 255 ) * 1.2 * 1.1

Actually, I have done testing that shows that Opportunity and Surprise Attacks are additive. Spec both without Murder. Go out to the Dwarf start area. Kick some level 1 Young Ragged Wolves to verify 0 armor gives 110/220 on a crit. Now backstab them multiple times with a starter dagger. Guess what?
The damage is consistant with (DAMAGE+(AP/14*1.7)) * 1.5 + 255 ) * 1.3
and not with
(DAMAGE+(AP/14*1.7)) * 1.5 + 255 ) * 1.2 * 1.1

Even if you want to believe the armor is above 0 but still rounds to 110, the kick test proves the armor is not high enough to give damage reduction consistant with Opportunity and Surprise Attacks being multiplicative.

I suspect the same of Aggression and Surprise Attacks but have not tested this.
#25SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Shaker
Could you post a combat log with the weapon stats so we can verify this?
#26SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Xoya
Question:

On main hand theory: in general, any considerations about weapon stats are subordinate to the fact of limited itemization. The selection of weapons provided supports a strategy of picking the highest DPS weapon of "slow" speed (1.7-1.9 for daggers, 2.6-2.8 for fists/maces/swords). Note: there are exceptions (e.g. [Talon of Azshara] > [Merciless Gladiator's Slicer]).
On the topic of maces, given their improvement in 2.3 and available weapons in T6 content I'm assuming they will be desired above all other types of specs. If this is the case, how does [Dragonstrike] compare to [Syphon of the Nathrezim]?
#27SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Dontmindme
When I did the testing, both when Surprise Attacks was first added and recently when I saw that the spreadsheets were calling the combination multiplicative, I did not take combat logs. But quite frankly, this is one instance where a combat log tells you little.

You can't tell from the combat log whether I'm attacking Level 1 Young Ragged Wolves or Level 2. If you get lucky and get a crit and a hit with your kicks, it takes a minimum of 2 to demonstrate armor and using a 1-3 damage dagger, it doesn't take many swings to see min and max damage for both normal hits and crits. It's very easy to replicate. But most of the important information doesn't show in the combat log, like your base AP, equipment, etc.

I have since switched to swords and now have Murder which has been showing some unusual behavior at times given that Wolves are beasts, so I cannot currently repeat this on Live without blowing 20g respecing (and I'm cash tight after buying some LW patterns recently. I plan to do a more comprehensive analysis if I can ever get a character copied to the PTR to see which talent synergies are additive and which are multiplicative and checking again how the PTR is handling Murder. Until that time, I have done testing with this. I could not find a post anywhere on these forums showing where someone tested that they multiplicative. It seems people are assuming they multiply.

I reported this information [Rogue] DPS Spreadsheet
You can verify my math...

The weapon in question was the 1.6 speed 1-3 dagger Dirk sold by the vendor.

Last edited by Dontmindme : 10/12/07 at 10:23 PM.
#28SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Bael
Originally Posted by Vulajin View Post

On poisons and Windfury: for PvE, always choose Deadly Poison on the offhand.
Does this apply even when Windfury is unavailable?

We are low on raiding shamans and typically rely on poisons; I've always used Deadly Mainhand, Instant Offhand in the (perhaps mistaken) belief that the faster attack speed of my offhand will generate more poison applications. Does factoring in the extra hits of Sinister Strike/Sword Specialisation outweigh the faster speed? Windfury being unavailable, is it worth applying Instant to the mainhand instead?

If so, at what point in the discrepancy between mainhand-offhand speeds are you more likely to achieve a higher rate of Instant procs with the offhand?
#29SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Vulajin
Originally Posted by Xoya View Post
Question:

On the topic of maces, given their improvement in 2.3 and available weapons in T6 content I'm assuming they will be desired above all other types of specs. If this is the case, how does [Dragonstrike] compare to [Syphon of the Nathrezim]?
I don't know if you can "assume" that maces will be desired above other specs. 5% additional critical damage is awesome (I love my RED as much as anyone else), but so are extra attacks. I'll get back to you later on this, though, I'll see if I can't whip up a quick model of the new mace spec and do some comparisons.

Originally Posted by Bael View Post
Does this apply even when Windfury is unavailable?

We are low on raiding shamans and typically rely on poisons; I've always used Deadly Mainhand, Instant Offhand in the (perhaps mistaken) belief that the faster attack speed of my offhand will generate more poison applications. Does factoring in the extra hits of Sinister Strike/Sword Specialisation outweigh the faster speed? Windfury being unavailable, is it worth applying Instant to the mainhand instead?

If so, at what point in the discrepancy between mainhand-offhand speeds are you more likely to achieve a higher rate of Instant procs with the offhand?
Both Aldriana's spreadsheet and my spreadsheet seem to indicate that, for my combination of weapons ([Talon of Azshara] and [Merciless Gladiator's Quickblade]), IP/DP is a couple DPS better than DP/IP. The difference is certainly too small to be noticeable. I'd say leave it up to taste. Note, I tried switching to [Blade of Savagery] for my offhand and the difference was still in favor of IP/DP.

Will it be different with other weapon types? Possibly. You're more than welcome to check the spreadsheets yourself. Personally, I think the napkin math to figure out the difference between DP/IP and IP/DP is a bit too complicated, it's much better to just use one of the excellent spreadsheets we have available to us.
#30SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Vulajin
Okay, did a quick model assuming that mace spec functions additively with RED (I have no idea if this will be the case, but it seems to be the most likely assumption to make). Started with [Talon of Azshara] and [Merciless Gladiator's Quickblade] as my control set. Then I switched to [Dragonstrike] and [Merciless Gladiator's Bonecracker] and lost 35 DPS. Upgraded the main hand to [Syphon of the Nathrezim] and lost another 11 DPS. Switched the offhand to [Swiftsteel Bludgeon] and gained back 16.5 DPS.

Long story short, looks like mace spec will be right up there with fists in 2.3, but swords and fist+sword will still win out.
#31SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Littlefinger
I have a question about your assessment on the gems. You constantly say that the ones with agility is superior to the ones with only attack power. For example. 8 Agi should be prefered over 16 AP and 4 Agi 6 Stam should be prefered over 8 AP 6 Stam. However when I do the same comparison in the rogue DPS spreadsheet then the AP ones always come out ahead. So, which is it?

For reference I'm a T4 (few T5) Sword spec rogue with Spiteblade and Merciless Quickblade.
#32SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Tryss
Don't forget [Icon of Unyielding Courage] is a good pre-raid trinket, as well.
#33SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3vokzhen
I think this is the best place for this. I've heard (mainly from the 2.1 Theorycrafting thread) that Mutilate falls significantly behind combat, due to some change in 2.1. Can anyone elaborate on this? I just haven't been able to find any solidly-stated reason why it falls behind besides "it just does;" maybe something about haste and Combat Potency, but I don't *think* that's a big concern until haste rating gets more common on gear, and something about less out of Windfury but I don't know why unless running with DP/DP.
#34SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Vulajin
Originally Posted by Littlefinger View Post
I have a question about your assessment on the gems. You constantly say that the ones with agility is superior to the ones with only attack power. For example. 8 Agi should be prefered over 16 AP and 4 Agi 6 Stam should be prefered over 8 AP 6 Stam. However when I do the same comparison in the rogue DPS spreadsheet then the AP ones always come out ahead. So, which is it?

For reference I'm a T4 (few T5) Sword spec rogue with Spiteblade and Merciless Quickblade.
Oops, sorry for not getting back to you on this. My answer would be that it can vary greatly depending on your current gear and the buffs with which you evaluate your DPS. In general, I'd do two things:

1) compare the output from both spreadsheets to make sure it's not just a difference in the modeling
2) value the opinion given by the spreadsheets slightly higher than general rules such as the ones I've given

Guidelines are great, but don't necessarily trust them as law. If the spreadsheets tell you that AP gems are better at your gear level and with the buffs you get in raids, then go with AP gems.

Originally Posted by Tryss View Post
Don't forget [Icon of Unyielding Courage] is a good pre-raid trinket, as well.
Will add, thanks for reminding me.
#35SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Marvie
"On gem selection: only gem for socket bonuses that provide offensive stats (hit rating, crit rating, AP), and only if they are achievable using solely red and yellow gems. If you are socketing for a bonus, always use [Rigid Dawnstone] in yellow sockets and [Glinting Noble Topaz] in red sockets, unless you are nearing the hit cap, in which case use [Glinting Noble Topaz] in yellow sockets and [Delicate Living Ruby] in red sockets."

Curious, why is Glinting (4hit 4agi) a better choice than Wicked (4crit 8AP)?

Just wondering because I'm at 300hit right now and any gem slots I have to fill I planned on using Wicked. If there is a reason Glinting is superior I would love to be enlightened.
#36SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Amaevisane
Agility is your bestfriend.

Originally Posted by Marvie View Post
Curious, why is Glinting (4hit 4agi) a better choice than Wicked (4crit 8AP)?

Attack power and crit gems should not be used in Rogue Gear, unless the AP or crit gem is greater than a Delicate Living Ruby. A Glinting Noble Topaz is used in a red or yellow slot to help close the gap of your hit cap. I myself use the Crimson Sun (24 ap ruby) in my Netherblade chest, as I am hit capped at 300. The Crimson Sun is far superior dps compared to a Delicate Living Ruby. I chose the Pulsing Amethyst for my Deathmantle pants. It's a wonderful gem for the slot, again I am hit capped. I'm considering using a Stone of Blades (12 crit rating dawnstone) in something when I can squeeze it in.

A Delicate Living Ruby (8 agi) gives you 8 attack power, 4.4 crit, plus dodge and armor. The Paladin blessing Kings increases agility by 10%. Kings does not increase ap or crit, only base stats.

I laugh (on the inside) every time I see a rogue using a Wicked Noble Topaz in the red slot of their Netherblade chest. There is never a time it would make sense. If you need a yellow gem to make your meta work, chances are you are low on hit, and therefore a Glinting Noble Topaz is a far superior choice to a Wicked Noble Topaz.

(If you were to armory me at the moment, I'm wearing my Thalasian Wildercloak, and not the Drape of the Dark Reavers, which is what I wear to raid. Also mace spec, as the guild I am applying to does not raid again until Tuesday)

Last edited by Amaevisane : 10/15/07 at 3:37 PM.
#37SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Drunk
Originally Posted by Littlefinger View Post
I have a question about your assessment on the gems. You constantly say that the ones with agility is superior to the ones with only attack power. For example. 8 Agi should be prefered over 16 AP and 4 Agi 6 Stam should be prefered over 8 AP 6 Stam. However when I do the same comparison in the rogue DPS spreadsheet then the AP ones always come out ahead. So, which is it?

For reference I'm a T4 (few T5) Sword spec rogue with Spiteblade and Merciless Quickblade.
Check out buffed dps. Stacking AP over agi gives you bigger boost when unbuffed/solo grinding, but buffed with BoK, agi takes the lead. And we care only for raids dps anyway so Vulajin is correct
#38SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Lunaviel
Originally Posted by Marvie View Post
Curious, why is Glinting (4hit 4agi) a better choice than Wicked (4crit 8AP)?
Using the simple AP conversions from the topic gives us:

4 crit @ 1.6 AP = 6.4 AP

This gives Wicked a total value of 6.4 + 8 = 14.4 AP

Compare to Glinting:

4 hit @ 2.3 AP = 9.2 AP
4 agi @ 2.2 AP = 8.4 AP

Total for Glinting is 9.2 + 8.4 = 17.6 AP - clearly superior.

This of course assumes that you have not reached the hit cap, at which point the value of hit approaches 0 giving Wicked a clear advantage over glinting. For red sockets the Delicate (8 agi) still beats Wicked of course.

1 Strength = 1 AP (1.1 with Kings)
1 Agility = 2 AP (2.2 with Kings)
1 Crit Rating = 1.6 AP
1 Hit Rating = 2.3 AP
4 Armor Penetration = 1 AP
1 Haste Rating = 2.3 AP
What I really want to know is where the value of 2.3 AP for 1 haste rating comes from. Using the rogue DPS spreadsheet, I get a raid-buffed value of 0.82 AEP for haste, which translated to AP is roughly 1.7 (AP clocks in at .49 AEP for me).
#39SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3mmaker
Anyone done any calculation of the new mace spec with 5% more crit damage?
#40SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
bossmonster
edit: I'm stupid.

Last edited by bossmonster : 10/16/07 at 10:50 AM.
#41SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Kellhus
Originally Posted by Vulajin View Post
Okay, did a quick model assuming that mace spec functions additively with RED (I have no idea if this will be the case, but it seems to be the most likely assumption to make). Started with [Talon of Azshara] and [Merciless Gladiator's Quickblade] as my control set. Then I switched to [Dragonstrike] and [Merciless Gladiator's Bonecracker] and lost 35 DPS. Upgraded the main hand to [Syphon of the Nathrezim] and lost another 11 DPS. Switched the offhand to [Swiftsteel Bludgeon] and gained back 16.5 DPS.

Long story short, looks like mace spec will be right up there with fists in 2.3, but swords and fist+sword will still win out.
Comparing the talon to dragonstrike is rough, given the talons nice pve stats. How much of the dps loss can be purely attributed to a stat loss, and how much comes from the spec change?

Also, since mace and claw will be very similar in specialization, and the mace does have a haste proc still --does this mean that a Mace/Sword build becomes as valid for dps as a claw/sword post 2.3?
#42SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Cluey
Originally Posted by bossmonster View Post
Do you even play a rogue?
While not made clear the person you are quoting is referring to an equivalence of AP not direct AP.
I expect if you read more of the theory threads around here you would have picked that up.
#43SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Lunaviel
Originally Posted by bossmonster View Post
Do you even play a rogue?
I have to admit the 1 agi = 2 AP puzzled me a bit, especially the 2.2 with kings part. However, given that my gear currently yields .49 AEP for AP according to the rogue gear sheet, assuming that 1 agi = 2 AP isn't outrageous as a rule of thumb. This is stat weighting we're talking about after all, even if using AP as a unit might lead to misunderstandings.
#44SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Vulajin
Originally Posted by Kellhus View Post
Comparing the talon to dragonstrike is rough, given the talons nice pve stats. How much of the dps loss can be purely attributed to a stat loss, and how much comes from the spec change?

Also, since mace and claw will be very similar in specialization, and the mace does have a haste proc still --does this mean that a Mace/Sword build becomes as valid for dps as a claw/sword post 2.3?
Well, using Talon as a baseline functions to show how a mace build using T5-equivalent weapons would compare to a sword build using T5-equivalent. Obviously there aren't any maces with better stats, which I think is the pertinent info. You can see from the comparison to the Syphon that Dragonstrike is likely the best of the bunch, although I have no clue at all what kind of proc rate the Rod has, so I can't fairly model that.

My rough estimates show that a mace/sword build will be quite competitive, very slightly behind fist/sword, where fist/sword is very slightly behind sword/sword. All these estimates assume that mace spec's 5% crit damage functions additively with RED. If it functions differently, the numbers will be skewed.

Also, check your PM's momentarily.

Regarding people commenting on "1 Agi = 2 AP"...I'm confused as to how you could call me on that, but not get confused when I went on to equate crit rating and hit rating to AP amounts. Obviously the table is meant to value the DPS contribution from any stat in terms of the amount of pure AP it would take to get equal DPS contribution.

If anyone would like to help me correct my wording for that portion so that it's more clear and I don't have people jumping on me in the future for "spouting misinformation," please feel free.
#45SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Cluey
Originally Posted by Vulajin View Post
*snip*

Regarding people commenting on "1 Agi = 2 AP"...I'm confused as to how you could call me on that, but not get confused when I went on to equate crit rating and hit rating to AP amounts. Obviously the table is meant to value the DPS contribution from any stat in terms of the amount of pure AP it would take to get equal DPS contribution.

If anyone would like to help me correct my wording for that portion so that it's more clear and I don't have people jumping on me in the future for "spouting misinformation," please feel free.
While I understood what you meant it won't be obviously clear to new readers, given that this is a summary post to get new people up to speed perhaps you should note it in the first post along with your other abbreviations?
Even better would be to use a different abbreviation, maybe APE or APe, the e/E for equivalence?
*I think there is/was a system using AEP but my brain is not clear on this anymore, I also seem to recall the rating you are doing to be different from the way that system works.

I know with the feral druid stuff we ended up using KP (kitty points) to avoid the confusion but that was a while ago on the official forums which I haven't visited in a while, the druids here just use straight AP as well.
#46SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3dukes
Probably the main problem is that Agi = 2AP is what used to be true for hunters. If it had been a weird value like Agi = 2.24782 then it would've been clear that it's an equivalence.

AEP is Agility Equivalence Points, which was equating everything to 1 point of agility instead of 1 point of AP. AEP values are generally less than 1, while APe (or whatever) are generally more than 1. AP is generally easier to equate to anyway, as agility has crit involved which is always a bit funny (lots of modifiers because of RED and other stuff).
#47SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Shaker
Vul,

I'd reword into something like "AEP" or "AtkEP" (I personally prefer AtkEP for the calculation you're doing, as it's "Attack Power Equivalency Points"). Hold on, I'll just copy the section and edit, and if you like it, you can just copy it back into the original post.

Stat weighting depends heavily on the stats a character already possesses. The following general guidelines are based roughly on a projected tier 4 level of gear (Kara/Gruul/Mag/world bosses). These guidelines work by comparing the amount of DPS provided by any one stat to the amount of DPS provided by a point of Attack Power (called AtkEP, or Attack Power Equivalency Points):

1 Strength = 1 AtkEP (1.1 with Kings)
1 Agility = 2 AtkEP (2.2 with Kings)
1 Crit Rating = 1.6 AtkEP
1 Hit Rating = 2.3 AtkEP
4 Armor Penetration = 1 AtkEP
1 Haste Rating = 2.3 AtkEP

For specific values for your character, see one of the spreadsheets linked in this post.
or if you prefer AEP (though personally I don't because I get that confused with Agility Equivalency ..):

Stat weighting depends heavily on the stats a character already possesses. The following general guidelines are based roughly on a projected tier 4 level of gear (Kara/Gruul/Mag/world bosses). These guidelines work by comparing the amount of DPS provided by any one stat to the amount of DPS provided by a point of Attack Power (called AEP, or Attack Equivalency Points):

1 Strength = 1 AEP (1.1 with Kings)
1 Agility = 2 AEP (2.2 with Kings)
1 Crit Rating = 1.6 AEP
1 Hit Rating = 2.3 AEP
4 Armor Penetration = 1 AEP
1 Haste Rating = 2.3 AEP

For specific values for your character, see one of the spreadsheets linked in this post.
#48SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Manuva
@Vul/rogue community,

Recently I've been reading everywhere about combat sword dps in comparison to combat dagger dps, and in every comparison drawn swords comes out top hands down. Now when I first saw these posts popping up on the official rogue forums about everyone turning to swords I stuck it through with daggers, as generally I don't beleive anything on those BS forums.

I am not benign to the fact that on paper swords > daggers (combat) and will not flat out deny objective truths. However the amount of dps I still produce easily equals the other two combat rogues in my guild (who are both swords). Comparing our profiles you will see that we are pretty much all equally geared:

The World of Warcraft Armory

The World of Warcraft Armory

The World of Warcraft Armory

(I would appreciate no commenting about improving my current stats - I know 306 +hit is far from optimal with the amount of AP I have, but there are some major upgrades in store so right now there would be no use in re-socketing my gear accordingly as I usually do if I receive upgrades).

So I am just inquiring as to WHY combat daggers is such a no go for most people, even in mid-high end BT? In my experience it's as viable as combat swords.

Thanks in advance for answers,

Manuva.

P.S. Sorry for taking it slightly off topic, but I thought posting a new thread about this is pointless.
#49SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
 Shaker
Everyone has their rockstar players and their not-as-rockstar players. You'd see a DPS boost by going swords, and you'd still beat those guys. Your example proves that player skill > spec and gear, and that spec/gear only make a difference when they're either drastically different (i.e. T6 vs T4 gear or really crappy spec), or when player skill is very similar.

I can show you WWS of fights where my holdout frost mage beats the snot out of a similarly equipped fire mage - but that doesn't mean frost beats fire. It means he's pushing really hard, and my fire mage isn't.

Edit to add: I by no means am suggesting "You should go swords" - I (personally) think daggers is within acceptable limits of swords as far as raid viability, and you're certainly proving that you deserve your spot - I'm merely addressing the fallacy raised by "Well, I do more damage with X spec" - small sample size. Also, seeing as there's what, 7(?) dagger drops through the raid game, vs the 4 sword drops (Netherspite, Morogrim, Sharhaz, Anetheron..) pre-Illidan, it's always good to have a little spread so that more gear gets used. :P

As far as your fellow rogues, Ciara has great gear that's just gemmed all wrong - Blazefury is also a less optimal offhand (wish that wasn't the case, buut). She's got +7 agi on her boots, that's .. a pre-BC enchant. Solid Star of Elune is never a rogue purchase, except maybe for resist or pvp gear (and even then . . . ). Her spec doesn't have any fundamental errors, though having Imp Evisc, I get a funny feeling she might be using it too much, which would be less than optimal.

Eldorian has good gear, and generally good gem choices (I'd skip the 4crit/6sta for 4agi/6sta gems..) His talent spec is darn similar to Ciara's, so he might be overusing Evisc as well.

Since I'm into the armory critique game, I looked at your gear - it IS somewhat surprising that you're beating those two out, seeing as your gear is mostly T4 level, whereas theirs is mostly T5+. You do have a few flaws in your gemming as well - you need 2 blues to activate your meta gem, yet you do so with a red slot in your hat that has a great set bonus (bad), and then 1 slot in a belt with 2 blue slots and a decent set bonus. Also, the set bonus on the NB breastplate is really nice as well, so you have 3 blue slots that could take blue gems without costing you anything, and you're utilizing one of them... :P Specwise, I think you'd see some improvement (mostly from the accessability of being able to run 1s/3r) in moving 2/2 Murder into 2/3 Ruthlessness. Other than that, looks totally clean.

Probably more than you asked for, but heyyy, why not. :P

Last edited by Shaker : 10/16/07 at 1:04 PM.
#50SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Takkara
Originally Posted by Manuva View Post
@Vul/rogue community,

Recently I've been reading everywhere about combat sword dps in comparison to combat dagger dps, and in every comparison drawn swords comes out top hands down. Now when I first saw these posts popping up on the official rogue forums about everyone turning to swords I stuck it through with daggers, as generally I don't beleive anything on those BS forums.

I am not benign to the fact that on paper swords > daggers (combat) and will not flat out deny objective truths. However the amount of dps I still produce easily equals the other two combat rogues in my guild (who are both swords). Comparing our profiles you will see that we are pretty much all equally geared:

The World of Warcraft Armory

The World of Warcraft Armory

The World of Warcraft Armory

(I would appreciate no commenting about improving my current stats - I know 306 +hit is far from optimal with the amount of AP I have, but there are some major upgrades in store so right now there would be no use in re-socketing my gear accordingly as I usually do if I receive upgrades).

So I am just inquiring as to WHY combat daggers is such a no go for most people, even in mid-high end BT? In my experience it's as viable as combat swords.

Thanks in advance for answers,

Manuva.

P.S. Sorry for taking it slightly off topic, but I thought posting a new thread about this is pointless.
Of course combat daggers are VIABLE, that's not the issue in the least. At worst, combat swords are roughly equivalent to combat daggers. At best, they are superior in DPS. Now let's think in addition the utility that one gains from that. You can go deeper into the assassination tree for more DPS gains and you are free from positional restraints.

In Hyjal, you sometimes have to tank the caster trash, sometimes you can't safely get behind a boss, etc.

When you add the utility to the DPS, combat swords comes out as a pretty clear winner in the overall best raid department. However, this does not mean combat daggers is not viable, of course it is, but it's not optimal, or in many cases, friendly to manage.

As to why you stay competitive/beat the other rogues in your guild, there's a number of reasons, all anecdotal. Maybe you run a tighter rotation, pay more attention to CD's, get more procs, pop more potions, etc. There's a number of intangibles that can cause identically geared rogues with identical specs to perform not identically.

Hopefully this answers your question.
#51SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Keyne
Skill, gear, and spec

Originally Posted by Shaker View Post
Your example proves that player skill > spec and gear, and that spec/gear only make a difference when they're either drastically different (i.e. T6 vs T4 gear or really crappy spec), or when player skill is very similar.
Purely for the sake of arguement....

The implied proof here is that a player that has 'skill' yields better results than a player that has no/less 'skill'. The same is true for 'good' gear vs 'bad' gear. There is no way to meaningfully quantify whether 'skill' (and its implications) are > or < 'gear'. Spec and gear ALWAYS make a difference, as each marginal change in how talent points are spent, or how gear is itemized has a non-zero change on a relevant variable in the game, whether a stat on the stat sheet, DPS, health, etc. (which I guess are all stats on the stat sheet :P). Only reason one might say that these two things 'don't matter' is that they are not quantifiable until 'skill' can be controlled out of the equation...

Granted this post is more relevent to a thread about raid-leading, but its something good for everyone to be aware of when thinking (incorrectly) that you can compare your dps against anyone else's in the raid (with very specific exceptions).
#52SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Vulajin
Originally Posted by Keyne View Post
Purely for the sake of arguement....

The implied proof here is that a player that has 'skill' yields better results than a player that has no/less 'skill'. The same is true for 'good' gear vs 'bad' gear. There is no way to meaningfully quantify whether 'skill' (and its implications) are > or < 'gear'. Spec and gear ALWAYS make a difference, as each marginal change in how talent points are spent, or how gear is itemized has a non-zero change on a relevant variable in the game, whether a stat on the stat sheet, DPS, health, etc. (which I guess are all stats on the stat sheet :P). Only reason one might say that these two things 'don't matter' is that they are not quantifiable until 'skill' can be controlled out of the equation...

Granted this post is more relevent to a thread about raid-leading, but its something good for everyone to be aware of when thinking (incorrectly) that you can compare your dps against anyone else's in the raid (with very specific exceptions).
Definitely true. I think the important thing to glean, though, is that skill is definitely a consideration. I've heard many a rogue quip that playing a rogue takes zero skill, hell, I've certainly joked about it from time to time. However, we regularly see instances where a rogue with a particular level of gear, gemmed and specced properly, defies logic by putting out DPS that rogues half his level could achieve.

There are a lot of intangibles at play. Sometimes, it has to do with how you survive during fights. Sometimes, it has to do with how attentively you keep on target. Sometimes, it has to do with simply being more awake and alert during a raid than someone else. Never let yourself believe for a second, though, that maximizing your DPS takes zero skill. There's a wide gulf between your max theoretical DPS output and what you can do if you just go on autopilot during raids.

...sorry, a lot of that rant is horribly off-topic, but it's just something I've talked about with my guild lately.
#53SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3xumie
Has anyone looked into +5% to crit damage via mace spec as being superior to +5% extra attack via sword spec in 2.3? I sit around 40% crit raid buffed, and I'm sure there's some point in which one spec becomes superior to the other, depending on your ap/crit.
#54SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
 Vulajin
Post #30 in this very thread.

(edit) Never mind, I see, you're looking for information on how it may scale with gear. Let me see if I can't cook up some numbers on that.

(edit 2) Taking the same spreadsheet I used to do the comparison from post #30, I first started with [Talon of Azshara] and [Merciless Gladiator's Quickblade]. Theoretical DPS: 1407.68.

Arbitrarily, I add 1000 AP. DPS increases by 290.57.
Now I remove that AP and instead arbitrarily add 600 crit rating. DPS increases by 285.38.

Now I switch weapons to [Dragonstrike] and [Merciless Gladiator's Bonecracker]. Theoretical DPS: 1372.82.

Arbitrarily, I add 1000 AP. DPS increases by 285.09.
Now I remove that AP and instead arbitrarily add 600 crit rating. DPS increases by 297.77.

Obviously, the implication is that maces scale better with crit rating after the change, but swords continue to scale better with AP. Additionally, it would clearly take ungodly amounts of crit rating for the mace bonus to scale past the inherent DPS deficit it suffers at this gear level (and itemization doesn't really favor maces past this gear level, either, whereas swords have one more tier to go).

Last edited by Vulajin : 10/16/07 at 4:06 PM.
#55SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3xumie
Originally Posted by Vulajin View Post
Post #30 in this very thread.

(edit) Never mind, I see, you're looking for information on how it may scale with gear. Let me see if I can't cook up some numbers on that.
Totally skimmed right past that. Thanks.

(edit) It answered the question roughly. I was just thinking that when you got 2400ish+ ap and 40%ish+ crit, that the 5% extra crit damage would outweigh the MH sword proc.
#56SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Autolycus
boots

Not sure if it has been mentioned, but I noticed under the gear enchants section in your post you mentioned dexterity and cat's swiftness however you did not say anything about the Surefooted enchant. Based on your AP conversion, dexterity (12 agility = 24 AP), and cat's swiftness (9 agility = 18 AP). Since you're saying 1 hit rating = 2.3 AP, then shouldn't surefooted be right up there as well? (10 hit rating = 23 AP)
#57SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3xumie
Roughly, going by just white damage, you get an extra sword attack proc every 20 swings. Brief check of the Illidan WWS last night shows my MH hitting for an average (noncrit)of 523, with a 34% average crit, so the average sword proc would hit for 700?

So for mace spec, in that 20 swings, the extra crit damage would have to add up to more than 700 damage, or 35 damage a swing. Average MH crit was ~1192, which would occur 6.8 times in those 20 swings. +5% damage of 1192 is 59.6 damage * 6.8 occurances in 20 swings = 405 damage, and that's just counting MH swings.

Seems like sword spec would still be superior, unless I suck at math, which is very likely.

(edit - I'm using s2 MH and s2 OH, which have a very confined damage range, so it's likely that the wider range on maces ie syphon, s2 mace, etc would make up for some of the lost damage.)
#58SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Vulajin
Originally Posted by Autolycus View Post
Not sure if it has been mentioned, but I noticed under the gear enchants section in your post you mentioned dexterity and cat's swiftness however you did not say anything about the Surefooted enchant. Based on your AP conversion, dexterity (12 agility = 24 AP), and cat's swiftness (9 agility = 18 AP). Since you're saying 1 hit rating = 2.3 AP, then shouldn't surefooted be right up there as well? (10 hit rating = 23 AP)
That raises an interesting question...for raiding purposes, does anyone actually use Surefooted? It's definitely a good DPS enchant, but the allure of Cat's Swiftness is actually the speed boost, which you can't replicate with any combination of stats. I vaguely recall a derivation in the first post of the enhancement shaman thread showing that Cat's Swiftness easily surpasses any other enchant if you spend a certain percentage of a fight having to move between targets. It was a small percentage.

If anyone can make a serious case that Surefooted is useful and is used in raids, then I will be sure to add a note saying so. Otherwise, perhaps I will instead add a summary of my above paragraph explaining why Cat's Swiftness is preferred over the other two.
#59SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Shaker
Cat's swiftness is 6 agility + runspeed, not 9. (So 12 AEP +whatever you value runspeed at, which I value relatively high).

Surefooted is a decent enchant if you need the hit rating, but given that Dexterity is easier to get, takes 1 less primal nether (i.e. 0), and is better (even if by only 1 AEP) then I'd argue for going Dexterity if you're considering only damage output. I have Cat's Swiftness on my boots, and I doubt I'm going back - there's just far too many fights where movement is a key concept. I think Aldriana had a post on it somewhere in the gear thread that said she used two pairs of boots, one with swiftness, the other without - and swapped them based on the fight.... and that she used the swiftness boots far more and was putting it on her next upgrade... that's pretty much my exact sentiment.
#60SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Shaker
Originally Posted by Keyne View Post
Purely for the sake of arguement....

The implied proof here is that a player that has 'skill' yields better results than a player that has no/less 'skill'. The same is true for 'good' gear vs 'bad' gear. There is no way to meaningfully quantify whether 'skill' (and its implications) are > or < 'gear'. Spec and gear ALWAYS make a difference, as each marginal change in how talent points are spent, or how gear is itemized has a non-zero change on a relevant variable in the game, whether a stat on the stat sheet, DPS, health, etc. (which I guess are all stats on the stat sheet :P). Only reason one might say that these two things 'don't matter' is that they are not quantifiable until 'skill' can be controlled out of the equation...

Granted this post is more relevent to a thread about raid-leading, but its something good for everyone to be aware of when thinking (incorrectly) that you can compare your dps against anyone else's in the raid (with very specific exceptions).
I believe, and I think the post I responded to supports, that a T4 geared character with a reasonably higher level of skill will equally perform, if not outperform, a T5/T6 geared character. While it's true you can't exactly quantify it, I still will assert (also as a raid leader) that skill is the largest variable in raid performance. This is assuming that we're talking about "viable" specs and "raid gear", I'm not saying a 0/0/0 kid in greens can outdps a sluggish T6 geared rogue, but I DO think that skill plays a much larger factor than "daggers vs swords", or "T4 vs T5 gear".
#61SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Autolycus
Well I'm clearly not in the most amazing raiding guild around. Currently we are only 3 bosses into SSC and 2 in TK, but I've always based my rogue's gearing around what information i can find from the more experienced, and the socket/enchant choices of some of the best guilds in the world.

As long as I've been watching rogues in those guilds armory pages get updated, they've always seemed to prefer surefooted to any other enchant.

Just to reference you to where I'm looking:

The World of Warcraft Armory
The World of Warcraft Armory
The World of Warcraft Armory

I'm not going to go specifically into the math on run speed, but if you just think logically about it and compare the amount of time you spend moving to your target, to the amount of time you spend dpsing, you can then calculate exactly (theoretically of course) how much dps you gain from the movement speed. Take the total amount of time spent running x.08% to find out how much time that movement speed enchant saves you, and then multiply that by your personal DPS achieved that fight will give you how much more damage you could have done. In most fights it seems incredibly miniscule to me. Although in specific fights like Al'ar the number might be a lot higher, personally I just don't see an incredibly significant value in the runspeed to justify taking the enchant.

edit: also, sorry my mistake about the 6 agility on the enchant
#62SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3vokzhen
For Cat's Swiftness, read the opening post in the Enhance Shammy Theorycraft thread. They have there that a 6 minute fight with more than 4.68 second of movement, Cat's Swiftness offers more damage. Afaik, that's pretty much every single fight.
#63SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Shaker
Might be a small number, but you're comparing it to the opportunity cost of 6 agility (going from Dex (12agi) to Cat's (6agi + runspeed). I'm pretty sure that in any fight involving movement (as noted above), you can make up 6 agi's worth of damage by getting just a few more autoattacks off.
#64SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Oscarvil
Here's the latest post in the shaman thread on cat's swiftness.

http://elitistjerks.com/470765-post2228.html
#65SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Aldriana
Rough numbers on run speed:

With my current gear, according to the rogue gear sheet, I do 1486.91 DPS. The loss of 6 agility reduces this to 1482.92.

Lets assume that without Cat's Swiftness, I spend X seconds out of every minute moving; thus, my damage per minute is (60-X)*1486.91. With Cat's Swiftness, it would instead be (60-x/1.08)*1482.92. Equating these and solving for X, we find that the break-even point is at X = 2.1. So, by this estimate, if you're spending more than 2.1 seconds out of every minute moving, Cat's Swiftness is better.

In practice, this isn't *quite* a fair estimate, since movement time generally doesn't diminish your yellow DPS, only your white DPS; hence, this calculation should be redone considering only white damage loss. But this is probably a reasonable estimate to start from.

So, any fight in which you spend more than 2.1 seconds out of every minute moving favors Cat's Swiftness. So, for instance, in T5 instances, this would be everything except Tidewalker and, depending on your guild's strategy, Void Reaver; for these instances, Cat's Swiftness is thus fairly clearly superior. However, the situation is a bit less clear in the T6 instances; I would argue that for Anetheron, Kaz'rogal, Naj'entus, Teron, Gurtogg, and Reliquary there is insufficient running to warrant using Cat's Speed, and there are a few others where it is questionable (Rage Winterchill and Anetheron, for instance) where it doesn't make sense to use Cat's Swiftness from a DPS perspective but one could argue that there's reason to do so from a survival perspective, given that there is AoE to run out of. Also note that one one of the remaining fights (Shahraz) you will not be wearing your regular boots anyway, so Cat's Swiftness is only the superior choice for your day-to-day boots on 5 out of 13 fights.

My current solution to this problem is to maintain 2 sets of boots, one with Cat's Swiftness on for movement fights, and one with 12 agi on them for more sustained fights. This does require one to have access to two reasonably comparable sets of boots, of course, but I do believe it's the right decision in general.

Regarding Surefooted: the snare break is only useful from a PvE perspective on Vashj, and, in practice, using Vanish/Cloak/Imp Sprint is usually sufficient to stay clear on her. As such, the only motivation for Surefooted (from a purely PvE standpoint) would be if 10 hit is superior DPS to 12 agi, which is not true for the majority of raid-buffed PvE rogues.

In brief: 12 agi and Cat's Swiftness are competitive enchants, with each being superior on some fights. Surefooted is generally inferior from a PvE perspective.
#66SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Vulajin
Linked from the enchants section to your post, Ald. We can always count on you for an insightful post when one is needed.

I'm thinking of adding another section, under the general heading of "Mechanics." I don't want to exclude information, but I also don't want to cram the post so full of crap that no one reads it. Thus, I'm thinking of omitting things like the formulas provided by sp00n on the first page, and rather focusing on things such as cooldown management (with a link to a thread where I recall seeing the effects of stacking BF/AR/etc. versus not stacking them analyzed), Evis vs. Envenom, Shiv vs. Sinister Strike. Any thoughts?
#67SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Bshan
Just to chipping in on combat mutilate builds:

OH weapon speed: sorta a toss up as mentioned. However, with a fast OH weapon and the poison talents, using Instant Poison OH becomes a better option.

Fleet Footed: marginal for PvE right now, but it'll be very good in 2.3.

Mutilate cycle: although it was shown in the talent tree, I think special emphasis needs to be put on Ruthlessness. That extra combo point makes it viable to use a finisher after a single Mutilate, and that's what you want to be doing. That improves your chance at Relentless Strikes working: your only energy since you don't have Combat Potency.

If you're doing 2 Mutilates before a finisher (ex: Ruth didn't proc & Mutilate didn't crit), then you're suddenly in the hole energy-wise, and hurting your dps.


Edit:

I have read some people talking about running with dual Deadly Poison and using Envenom over eviscerate/rupture. Someone else should elucidate the intricacies of this problem as I haven't played Mut for a while.
Dual Deadly is good in two cases. One - if the mob has high enough armor that Eviscerates are wasteful. Two - if the mob can strip poisons. Good example here is Tidalvess on the Fathom Lord fight. He can drop Greater Poison Cleansing totems which can mess up your Deadly stacks, and worst case, cause you to briefly lose the Mutilate bonus damage. Deadly on both weapons keeps it stacked, even though Envenom is not so hot on him.

You'll always be doing at least some Evisc / Envenom because you generate combo points faster than SnD and Rupture wear off.

Last edited by Bshan : 10/16/07 at 8:06 PM.
#68SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Autolycus
Alright well reguardless, i just thought that if dexterity was worth mentioning for boot enchant, surefooted would be as well. currently i'm sitting at 276 hit rating, so i personally don't think i can give up that 10 hit rating.

I don't have to agree with everything posted on these forums right?
#69SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Vulajin
Originally Posted by Autolycus View Post
Alright well reguardless, i just thought that if dexterity was worth mentioning for boot enchant, surefooted would be as well. currently i'm sitting at 276 hit rating, so i personally don't think i can give up that 10 hit rating.

I don't have to agree with everything posted on these forums right?
On the contrary, I wish more people would contradict me and get some discussion going so that this thread stays up and so that I get ideas for ways to improve it.
#70SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Aldriana
No, you're not obligated to agree with everything on these forums, but, allow me to ask you:

In what sense can you "not afford to give up that 10 hit rating"? If you will demonstrably do more damage with 12 agi than with 10 hit on your boots, why does it matter what the actual hit rating number is?

I bring this up purely because it's a common mistake I see people make. A lot of people are bought into the idea of magic numbers - "I must have 275 hit rating or I'm gimping myself", and the like. The thing is: there is nothing fundamentally special about being at or near the hit cap. Hit is a powerful stat, so items that have a lot of it tend to be good, so if you select "good" equipment you will tend to have a lot of hit; however, it is important to remember that what makes the items good is not that they have a lot of hit, but that they generate good DPS output. Hit is just a number; damage is what matters in the end. And regardless of your current stats, there always exist tradeoffs. Even if the Surefooted enchant was the *only* you hit you had, there would exist some amount of AP, Crit, and other stats that would be worth trading it for. If there was a +1000 AP enchant, would you still feel those 10 points of hit were necessary?

Now, this is an extreme example, of course, but it is true that most rogues - and in particular almost all rogues who are optimizing in terms of 25-man raids - will benefit more from 12 agi than 10 hit, and, as such, I would encourage them to not get too fixated on exactly what their hit number is right now and make the superior DPS choice.

I'm not trying to pick on you, and I'm sorry if it comes across that way. This is just one of my pet peaves .
#71SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Autolycus
I don't know. I mean, I understand exactly what your saying in your example, however, I just have it drilled into my brain that every single swing I miss is a huge potential amount of increased damage dealt. I know it's argued all the time that there is no magic hit number, but I still put more value on closing the +hit rating cap with my gear, and THEN focusing on the other stats.

This may not be the most ideal way to gear yourself theoretically, but it's what I do, and I absolutely dominate the dps boards in our raids, so I must be doing something right.

I see rogues around all the time with gear that looks almost identical to my own except the cram in 8 agility gems, wicked noble topaz etc etc, and they sit around 225 hit rating. They have much more attack power and much more crit than myself, but I believe I would destroy their dps.

I set this magic *never go below this number* for myself at 252 (+16 % hit since we regularly do raid with a moonkin) although i try to shoot higher since imp FF isn't always going to be there for me. (actually clearing up to alar right now with no moonkin)

As soon as i get my tunic of assassination upgraded to bloodsail brigand's vest (hopefully this week!), i'll switch to cat's swiftness k?
#72SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Shaker
Well, Ald, there is ONE magic number for hit rating - I mean, if you're missing Sinister Strikes... I mean, that's not a huge concern for combat rogues - though, I suppose at REALLY low gear levels it might be once we're switched to Expertise .. but that would be ~60 hit rating. However, for a Mutilate spec that doesn't pick up precision, that "magic hit number" is going to be a little more important, and it is at 142. (ceil(9 x 15.769))

Edit to add: I'm not trying to be a devil's advocate - for any raiding situation, which Ald's normal stuff is applied to, she is 100% correct. I think this post caters to a slightly broader crowd, including people who might be raiding in pvp specs. It's the only reason I posted that.. I swear.
#73SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Aldriana
Originally Posted by Autolycus View Post
I don't know. I mean, I understand exactly what your saying in your example, however, I just have it drilled into my brain that every single swing I miss is a huge potential amount of increased damage dealt. I know it's argued all the time that there is no magic hit number, but I still put more value on closing the +hit rating cap with my gear, and THEN focusing on the other stats.

This may not be the most ideal way to gear yourself theoretically, but it's what I do, and I absolutely dominate the dps boards in our raids, so I must be doing something right.
So, a couple of points here:

Yes, it's true, every attack that doesn't hit is DPS loss. But, by the same token, every hit that doesn't crit is damage lost as well. As is every attack that is made with the opponent being at full mitigation due to lack of armor pen. As is every attack that doesn't get made due to not stacking haste rating.

I mean, I see where you're coming from, and it's a totally valid way to look at things... but what's important to remember is that *all* stats increase your DPS, so the relevant question is not *if* you're gaining DPS from stacking that stat, but *how much* DPS you're gaining, and, in turn, *how much* DPS you're losing by not stacking the other available stats.

I see rogues around all the time with gear that looks almost identical to my own except the cram in 8 agility gems, wicked noble topaz etc etc, and they sit around 225 hit rating. They have much more attack power and much more crit than myself, but I believe I would destroy their dps.
As a general rule of thumb you want to be socketing with either agi or hit. There are exceptions, to be sure; but it's a good starting point. So socketing with Delicate is perfectly valid; socketing with Wicked, less so.

Originally Posted by Shaker View Post
Well, Ald, there is ONE magic number for hit rating - I mean, if you're missing Sinister Strikes... I mean, that's not a huge concern for combat rogues - though, I suppose at REALLY low gear levels it might be once we're switched to Expertise .. but that would be ~60 hit rating. However, for a Mutilate spec that doesn't pick up precision, that "magic hit number" is going to be a little more important, and it is at 142. (ceil(9 x 15.769))

Edit to add: I'm not trying to be a devil's advocate - for any raiding situation, which Ald's normal stuff is applied to, she is 100% correct. I think this post caters to a slightly broader crowd, including people who might be raiding in pvp specs. It's the only reason I posted that.. I swear.
So, to be perfectly technical: 60 hit (or whatever it is) is not a "you must not drop below this line", but a "below this line hit is worth more than it was before, so it takes *even more* other assorted stats in order to make it worth it".

And to be even more perfectly technical: the amount of difference it makes is actually surprisingly small. Hit below the yellow hit cap is only worth about 10-15% more than hit above the yellow hit cap.

Of course, while we're on the topic: it's pretty much impossible to wind up with that little hit without actively trying to, so the distinction is not necessarily relevant.
#74SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Lunaviel
Originally Posted by Autolycus View Post
This may not be the most ideal way to gear yourself theoretically, but it's what I do, and I absolutely dominate the dps boards in our raids, so I must be doing something right.

I see rogues around all the time with gear that looks almost identical to my own except the cram in 8 agility gems, wicked noble topaz etc etc, and they sit around 225 hit rating. They have much more attack power and much more crit than myself, but I believe I would destroy their dps.
I'm afraid you just had to hit one of my pet peeves; drawing conclusions based on your performance compared to other rogues in your raids.

As was repeated earlier in this thread, even subtle differences in play style will make a much larger difference than gemming delicate/wicked over rigid/glinting, etc.

You may dominate the meters now, but that doesn't mean your +hit tunnel vision is the cause. While their lack of focus on +hit likely contributes to the difference, I would wager that you could further increase the gap by going for dps instead of hit.
#75SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3sp00n
Originally Posted by Vulajin View Post
with a link to a thread where I recall seeing the effects of stacking BF/AR/etc. versus not stacking them analyzed
I did some calculations here: http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t13122-r...ls/#post389595

This was before the haste nerf, but the base thesis is still valid.
#76SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Shaker
And to be even more perfectly technical: the amount of difference it makes is actually surprisingly small. Hit below the yellow hit cap is only worth about 10-15% more than hit above the yellow hit cap.
Do misses have an energy discount? Lord knows it's been a very, VERY long time since I missed an SS. And heck, while we're on the topic - do parries get an energy discount as well?
#77SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Drunk
Originally Posted by Autolycus View Post
I don't know. I mean, I understand exactly what your saying in your example, however, I just have it drilled into my brain that every single swing I miss is a huge potential amount of increased damage dealt. I know it's argued all the time that there is no magic hit number, but I still put more value on closing the +hit rating cap with my gear, and THEN focusing on the other stats.

This may not be the most ideal way to gear yourself theoretically, but it's what I do, and I absolutely dominate the dps boards in our raids, so I must be doing something right.

I see rogues around all the time with gear that looks almost identical to my own except the cram in 8 agility gems, wicked noble topaz etc etc, and they sit around 225 hit rating. They have much more attack power and much more crit than myself, but I believe I would destroy their dps.

I set this magic *never go below this number* for myself at 252 (+16 % hit since we regularly do raid with a moonkin) although i try to shoot higher since imp FF isn't always going to be there for me. (actually clearing up to alar right now with no moonkin)

As soon as i get my tunic of assassination upgraded to bloodsail brigand's vest (hopefully this week!), i'll switch to cat's swiftness k?
Well this is easy - get an addon like recount, record a trash raid, then record a boss fight and check it out. You will see what you white damage is, what % miss you have, how much exactly it is hurting your dps, then be able to calculate if the hit will be better or the agi one. Generally hit scales better with the gear than the agi/ap if you are below hit cap
#78SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Rerolled
Originally Posted by Shaker View Post
Do misses have an energy discount? Lord knows it's been a very, VERY long time since I missed an SS. And heck, while we're on the topic - do parries get an energy discount as well?
Yeah, you only lose I believe 7 energy for missed/dodged/parried SSes. With finishers you lose all the energy, unless you have quick recovery of course.

Edit: it's 8 energy.

Last edited by Rerolled : 10/17/07 at 5:43 AM.
#79SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Krollin
Originally Posted by Rerolled View Post
Yeah, you only lose I believe 7 energy for missed/dodged/parried SSes. With finishers you lose all the energy, unless you have quick recovery of course.
Surprise Attacks guarantees that no finishers can be dodged.
2/2 Quick Recovery means that finishers which fail to hit only cost 20% of their energy.
Finishers are not a factor anyway, with Surprise Attacks you get no benefit from Expertise unless your finishers are in danger of being parried and the energy cost of finishers is small compared to CP generators.

If you are working on a 0 Energy budget then your next special will come in when you have sufficient energy available.

One reason for not doing things this way but people often do.

In this case a dodged/parried CP generator means you have to wait at least one energy tick before you can try the special again. 2 seconds deeper into your DPS cycle.

Any reduction in dodge rate is useful in that it makes DPS cycles easier to maintain and DPS easier to sustain.

Blizzard have also introduced a new food buff which gets +20 Hit Rating, this takes some of the pain out of the new hit cap.
#80SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Tifwn
i want your opinion please...

I am about to get the [Merciless Gladiator's Right Ripper] or the [Merciless Gladiator's Slicer]

currently i am using the [Vindicator's Brand] and the [Merciless Gladiator's Quickblade]

What do you propose to purchase now? (PVE Spec)

thanks in advance
#81SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3mmaker
Originally Posted by Manuva View Post
@Vul/rogue community,

Recently I've been reading everywhere about combat sword dps in comparison to combat dagger dps, and in every comparison drawn swords comes out top hands down. Now when I first saw these posts popping up on the official rogue forums about everyone turning to swords I stuck it through with daggers, as generally I don't beleive anything on those BS forums.

I am not benign to the fact that on paper swords > daggers (combat) and will not flat out deny objective truths. However the amount of dps I still produce easily equals the other two combat rogues in my guild (who are both swords). Comparing our profiles you will see that we are pretty much all equally geared:

The World of Warcraft Armory

The World of Warcraft Armory

The World of Warcraft Armory

(I would appreciate no commenting about improving my current stats - I know 306 +hit is far from optimal with the amount of AP I have, but there are some major upgrades in store so right now there would be no use in re-socketing my gear accordingly as I usually do if I receive upgrades).

So I am just inquiring as to WHY combat daggers is such a no go for most people, even in mid-high end BT? In my experience it's as viable as combat swords.

Thanks in advance for answers,

Manuva.

P.S. Sorry for taking it slightly off topic, but I thought posting a new thread about this is pointless.

You right, i think the hype about swords make people think that swords is WAY better then daggers. But if you take the numbers of the first page for example, saying swords is 5% more dps then daggers it equals to 1050 dps for a swordrogue if the daggers holds 1000 dps. So in reality the differents is not much. Ofcourse if the rogue got the warglaives its another story, but then again there are no comparable daggers
#82SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Relkin
New Subtlety Changes.....Raid Worthy?

Looking at a few of these new Subtlety changes, is it possible now that dagger rogues may end up being able to output more DPS? With Dirty Deeds changes (20% more damage against targets below 35% health) and Shadowstep able to be used while out of stealth, there is a possibility of generating a solid amount of damage. What do you think?
#83SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
 Vulajin
I've been thinking about what precisely to put in the mechanics section, and here's a little thought I had with regard to cooldown syncing and its effect on DPS. Assume ability A with cooldown C(A) and ability B with cooldown C(B) = k*C(A), for some real value k > 1. Either k is an integer (e.g. C(A) = 2 min and C(B) = 4 min, so k = 2) or k is not an integer (e.g. C(A) = 2 min and C(B) = 3 min, so k = 1.5).

Additionally, assume there are three possible strategies:

1) We use both cooldowns on cooldown.
2) We use A on cooldown, but hold off on B until the next time A is available.
3) We use B on cooldown, but hold off on A until the next time B is available.

If k is an integer, our calculations are very simple. Since C(B) is a multiple of C(A), ability A will always be available when B becomes available. Thus:

1) If we use both abilities on cooldown, we can consider a timeframe of length C(B). Over this timeframe, we will use A exactly k times, and B exactly once. The cooldowns will sync up exactly once.

2) If we hold off on B until A becomes available, that won't change anything, since A is always available when B becomes available.

3) If we hold off on A until B becomes available, trivially, this will be inferior. Rather than being used k times in C(B), A will be used only once. B will still be used once. The abilities will still sync up once.

Thus, when k is an integer, it is obvious that strategy 1/2 is best.

If k is not an integer, our calculations become slightly less simple. However, we can take a timeframe of C(A)*C(B). Over this time, we know that the abilities will sync up a number of times equal to the greatest common factor between C(A) and C(B) (e.g. if C(A) = 6 and C(B) = 9, greatest common factor is 3, C(A)*C(B) = 54, so they will sync up 3 times in 54 minutes).

1) If we use both abilities on cooldown, we can consider a timeframe of C(A)*C(B)/gcf. Over this timeframe, we will use A exactly C(B)/gcf times, and B exactly C(A)/gcf times. The abilities will sync up once.

2) If we hold off on B until A becomes available, then we can consider a timeframe of ceil(k)*C(A). Over this timeframe, we will use A exactly ceil(k) times, and B exactly once. The abilities will sync up once.

3) If we hold off on A until B becomes available, then we can consider a timeframe of C(B), or k*C(A). Over this timeframe, we will use A exactly once, and B exactly once. The abilities will sync up once.

Here it is less obvious which is best. First, we must compare strategy 2 to strategy 3. Strategy 2 has a ratio of usage of ability A to time equal to ceil(k)/(ceil(k)*C(A)) = 1/C(A). Strategy 3's same ratio is 1/(k*C(A)). Since k > 1, strategy 2's ratio is greater. However, strategy 2 has a syncing ratio of 1/(ceil(k)*C(A)), while 3's ratio is 1/(k*C(A)); since k is not an integer, ceil(k) > k, therefore strategy 3's ratio is greater. Let the DPS increase factor of a cooldown be quantified by I(x). The DPS change going from strategy 2 to strategy 3 is:

I(A)/(k*C(A)) - I(A)/C(A) + I(A)*I(B)/(k*C(A)) - I(A)*I(B)/(ceil(k)*C(A)) =
(I(A) + I(A)*I(B))/(k*C(A)) - I(A)/C(A) - I(A)*I(B)/(ceil(k)*C(A)) =
1 + I(B) - 1 - k*I(B)/ceil(k) < (note that k/ceil(k) < 1 by definition if k is not an integer)
I(B) - I(B) = 0

The DPS change is less than zero; in other words, by switching from strategy 2 to strategy 3, you will always lose DPS. Now we want to figure out how strategy 1 compares to strategy 2. First, we can trivially find that A is used with a ratio of 1/C(A), and B with a ratio of 1/(k*C(A)). Note that strategy 2's ratio for A was also 1/C(A), and its ratio for B was 1/(ceil(k)*C(A)). However, 1's ratio of syncing the cooldowns is gcf/(C(A)*C(B)). This makes for a slightly more complicated analysis. The DPS change going from strategy 1 to strategy 2 is:

I(A)/C(A) - I(A)/C(A) + I(B)/(ceil(k)*C(A)) - I(B)/(k*C(A)) + I(A)*I(B)/(ceil(k)*C(A)) - I(A)*I(B)*gcf/(C(A)*C(B)) =
I(B)/ceil(k) - I(B)/k + I(A)*I(B)/ceil(k) - I(A)*I(B)*gcf/C(B) =
(1 + I(A))/ceil(k) - 1/k - I(A)*gcf/C(B) =
k*(1 + I(A))/ceil(k) - 1 - k*I(A)*gcf/C(B) <
I(A) - k*I(A)*gcf/C(B)

The DPS change going from strategy 1 to strategy 2 must be less than this given quantity. Thus, if we set this quantity equal to zero, we can find the conditions under which strategy 1 must be better than strategy 2.

I(A) - k*I(A)*gcf/C(B) = 0
I(A) = k*I(A)*gcf/C(B)
1 = k*gcf/k*C(A)
1 = gcf/C(A)
C(A) = gcf

If C(A) is a common factor between C(A) and C(B), then C(B) must be a multiple of C(A). Note that this is not a contradiction of our assumptions; rather, this is simply using the general case to illustrate what we already proved above when discussing integer values of k.

If C(A) is not the greater common factor between C(A) and C(B), we cannot actually make any general-case guarantees about strategy 1 versus strategy 2. If C(A) != gcf (and therefore C(A) > gcf), then strategy 2 might be better than strategy 1. If C(A) = gcf, then strategy 1 must be better.

(edit) (edited again -- Note that was formerly here has been invalidated.)

(edit 2) Please correct me if I've made any logical fallacies.

(edit 3) Just noticed a big problem with it. Pay me no heed while I fix this up. :p

(edit 4) Fixed. It's a lot more complex than I originally thought.

Last edited by Vulajin : 10/17/07 at 10:19 AM.
#84SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 nilme
Originally Posted by Tifwn View Post
i want your opinion please...

I am about to get the [Merciless Gladiator's Right Ripper] or the [Merciless Gladiator's Slicer]

currently i am using the [Vindicator's Brand] and the [Merciless Gladiator's Quickblade]

What do you propose to purchase now? (PVE Spec)

thanks in advance
You should check the DPS&Gear Spreadsheets on this same forum.
Anyway, just to save you some time, fist+sword would give you SLIGHTLY more dps at the cost of 5talent points. On my current setup I go from 1550 to 1555 dps, which is hardly noticeable.
At the sametime I'm an avid pvper so my combat builds include extra toys like blade twisting or improved kick, so fist+sword is a no-no for me.
Up to you :-)
#85SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Krollin
Originally Posted by mmaker View Post
You right, i think the hype about swords make people think that swords is WAY better then daggers. But if you take the numbers of the first page for example, saying swords is 5% more dps then daggers it equals to 1050 dps for a swordrogue if the daggers holds 1000 dps. So in reality the differents is not much. Ofcourse if the rogue got the warglaives its another story, but then again there are no comparable daggers
The difference has little to do with itemisation, skill, or talents.

The fact is that in most TBC endgame encounters a non-Dagger Combat build is better suited for the job.
It was always the case that Combat Daggers excels in a fight that is stable: tank and spank.
Little has changed in that respect.
However the fights we have now, phases including adds for example, and the increased importance of fast trash clearing mean that overall a non-Dagger Combat Rogue brings better performance with it in TBC than a Combat Dagger Rogue does.

So the advantages of playing Combat Daggers in Vanilla WoW no longer outweigh the disadvantages: awkward solo play, rubbish PvP playability. In fact many say that even in tank and spank fights there is little or nothing to be gained being Combat Daggers.

So many people don't bother anymore.
#86SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Vulajin
You seem to have missed the fact that, according to our most accurate spreadsheet models these days, combat daggers actually does come out behind sword and fist builds, even in a sustained tank and spank fight. The other disadvantages of being daggers just make it even less desireable.
#87SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Aldriana
Originally Posted by Relkin View Post
Looking at a few of these new Subtlety changes, is it possible now that dagger rogues may end up being able to output more DPS? With Dirty Deeds changes (20% more damage against targets below 35% health) and Shadowstep able to be used while out of stealth, there is a possibility of generating a solid amount of damage. What do you think?
So, the problem is that in order to get even Dirty Deeds one needs to spec fairly deep in Hemo, meaning you need to sacrifice either assassination or high-end combat, both of which hurt a *lot*. And this is doubly true for Shadowstep. I don't expect those talents to be sufficiently powerful to justify the loss of DPS through other talents for a dagger build.

In fact, I think the big winner in the subtlety changes is... sword builds (shockingly enough). Combat Hemo (11/26/24 and it's ilk) will be the major benefactors of such a change. They will still do less total DPS than Combat, but when you factor in the Hemo debuff it is sufficient to justify a raid slot.

Originally Posted by Krollin View Post
The difference has little to do with itemisation, skill, or talents.

The fact is that in most TBC endgame encounters a non-Dagger Combat build is better suited for the job.
It was always the case that Combat Daggers excels in a fight that is stable: tank and spank.
Little has changed in that respect.
However the fights we have now, phases including adds for example, and the increased importance of fast trash clearing mean that overall a non-Dagger Combat Rogue brings better performance with it in TBC than a Combat Dagger Rogue does.

So the advantages of playing Combat Daggers in Vanilla WoW no longer outweigh the disadvantages: awkward solo play, rubbish PvP playability. In fact many say that even in tank and spank fights there is little or nothing to be gained being Combat Daggers.

So many people don't bother anymore.
Oddly, this is somewhat reversed now. In purely sustained fights where swords can maintain cycles like 3s5r and keep very high rupture uptime, they blow past daggers. It is in interrupted fights where swords have a hard time maintaining tight cycles that daggers have the ability to compete, as dagger builds are much less reliant on rupture and much more reliant on simply keeping SnD up and backstabbing. Hence, to the extent a dagger rogue is going to be able to keep up at all, it's going to be on trash and interrupted fights, not on purely sustained fights. Which is exactly reversed from what it was pre-BC, but that's the way it goes.
#88SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Talda
Hello Vulajin,

at first I wanted to thank you for this very informative post. I still got some remarks on the two below quoted passages.

Originally Posted by Vulajin View Post
Combo Point Cycles

On fist/mace/sword cycles: in general, the cycle of choice is Xs/5r. With T4 2pc, 1s/5r or 2s/5r are the likely choices, with 2s/5r being less likely to let SnD drop. Without T4 2pc, 4s/5r or 5s/5r are the choices, with 5s/5r being less likely to let Slice and Dice drop. Do not try to squeeze in extra finishers like Eviscerate. Should the target be immune to bleed effects, use Xs/5e (with T4 2pc, 2s/5e; without it, 5s/5e).

On combat dagger cycles: with T4 2pc, the cycle of choice is Xs/3r, most commonly 1s/3r, although other variants are possible. Typically increasing the CP used on SnD will not result in a gain of SnD uptime, because generating the additional CP will take as long as the amount of extra SnD duration gained. Without T4 2pc, the cycle of choice is 3s/5s/5r. (HELP! Please verify this section is correct. Thanks.)
I have ever since been on Combat Daggers until the start of S2, I changed to Maces for more Arena viabilty then. On raids without t4, having no t5 4 bonus yet, the cycle 3s/5r worked for me fine there.
Now I am back to daggers again, still searching for the perfect cycle, and I have to confess that 5s/5r never works out for me, after 5s building up cps again I have about ~7 to 8s left until snd runs out, so it probably is about 5s/2r at max for me, even having t5 4bonus now.
anyone any ideas or experiences?
#89SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3aleyro
Originally Posted by Relkin View Post
Looking at a few of these new Subtlety changes, is it possible now that dagger rogues may end up being able to output more DPS? With Dirty Deeds changes (20% more damage against targets below 35% health) and Shadowstep able to be used while out of stealth, there is a possibility of generating a solid amount of damage. What do you think?

I spent some time in deep sub in ZA on the PTR. My gear isn't outstanding (hitcap, T4, properly enchanted/socketed etc) and I wasn't in a stacked DPS group, but i was doing considerably better damage as sub-daggers than I was as combat daggers. Specifically, I found that premed->garrote->rupture->relentless->1cp snd was a great opener, and generally followed up by backstab spam, with an occassional hemo or shiv to quickly hit 5cp ruptures.

Also, I macro'ed shadowstep into my backstab spam, so that I would use it (and its associated aggro reduction) every time it was up. It essentially worked like free feint. (i.e., /cast shadowstep /stopcasting /cast backstab).


So, anecdotally, yes, maybe there is a place for shs daggers in raiding. Lets see what the yet-to-be-announced hemo buff looks like? If they find a way to make it more dagger friendly, they we may have a serious contender. I would love it if they 1.) had hemo increase dot damage, 2.) made it into a more stackable buff; so, instead of just refreshing the count, 3 hemos would leave 90 charges of the debuff on the target.
#90SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Stabmaster
Originally Posted by Rerolled View Post
Yeah, you only lose I believe 7 energy for missed/dodged/parried SSes. With finishers you lose all the energy, unless you have quick recovery of course.

Edit: it's 8 energy.
A missed SS/BS/etc uses 20% of the normal energy. So 8 for SS, 12 for BS
#91SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Pstar
I'm also a little uncertain about the gem info here. I think the root of the disagreement comes from the AEP numbers. Where do those come from? My calculated AEP #s from the rogue DPS spreadsheet comes out to 1 AGI = .55 AP = 1.01 hit (buffed w/ kings). For red gems, this would suggest 16 AP is > 8 AGI, and would agree that the optimal yellow is 8 hit (tho barely).
#92SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3neg^
Originally Posted by Pstar View Post
I'm also a little uncertain about the gem info here. I think the root of the disagreement comes from the AEP numbers. Where do those come from? My calculated AEP #s from the rogue DPS spreadsheet comes out to 1 AGI = .55 AP = 1.01 hit (buffed w/ kings). For red gems, this would suggest 16 AP is > 8 AGI, and would agree that the optimal yellow is 8 hit (tho barely).
Your AEP numbers are relative to your current gear and buffs. Straight AP is probably a bigger boost for unbuffed dps, while agi will give more dps once raidbuffed with kings+might+shout+flask etc.
#93SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Krollin
@Aldriana:
I find the problems with Dagger builds on trash are the same as before and that Swords has reached at least parity with Daggers on bosses. Mind you I freely admit that issues with gear in the Raids I take part in distort what I am seeing and I have not taken these into account.
What I am seeing on trash is that Sword Rogues with worse gear than me in chaotic fights/small trash are out DPSing me, on bosses and big trash I am leaving them far behind.
With sword rogues of equal gear I tend compete on even terms on bosses only.
A lot of this could be down to me not trying so hard on smaller trash though.

I am a Combat Dagger Rogue, I am impatiently waiting a decent sword drop so I can respec. I am even contemplating PvP to get my weapons that way and I hate PvP with a vengeance. Sorry, I am boring people with my life story :/

@Talda:
I have the 4 set T4 bonus, I am not Ruthlessness specced (should be) but I find that a 1s/3s/5r cycle is still easy to maintain.
Respeccing to 3/3 Ruthlessness 4/5 Lethality should make 1s/3r easier. Doing so makes better use of the 4 set bonus, it hardly features otherwise.
#94SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Akka
Originally Posted by Pstar View Post
My calculated AEP #s from the rogue DPS spreadsheet comes out to 1 AGI = .55 AP = 1.01 hit (buffed w/ kings).
I may have misunderstood something, but how 1 Agi can be worth only 0,55 AP, while 1 Agi gives 1 AP and additionnal crit/dodge ?
#95SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3plin
Was just wondering how the effect of haste items like Band Of Devastation effects the yellow attacks? Does it calculate it from the stats on the weapon or do it count it after the "new" speed with the haste item?
#96SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Akka
Originally Posted by plin View Post
Was just wondering how the effect of haste items like Band Of Devastation effects the yellow attacks? Does it calculate it from the stats on the weapon or do it count it after the "new" speed with the haste item?
Stats from the weapon AFAIK (or haste would downgrade your yellow DPS, which would be quite absurd, though absurdity happens). I never noticed a diminution in my yellow hits when under haste effect anyway.
#97SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3sp00n
Originally Posted by Akka View Post
I may have misunderstood something, but how 1 Agi can be worth only 0,55 AP, while 1 Agi gives 1 AP and additionnal crit/dodge ?
It was articulated a bit mistakeable.
What he meant was that 1 AP is worth 0.55 AEP, 1 agi worth 1 AEP (obviously) and 1 hit 1.01 AEP for his gear.
#98SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Kurani
Hey guys I have a question. WIth 3/3 Imp Faerie Fire what would be the new Hit Cap (consider Precison and Weapon Expertise)? I'm really lost there.

Thaks in advance
#99SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Krollin
Originally Posted by Kurani View Post
Hey guys I have a question. WIth 3/3 Imp Faerie Fire what would be the new Hit Cap (consider Precison and Weapon Expertise)? I'm really lost there.

Thaks in advance
3/3 Imp FF gives 3% hit.
2/2 Weapon Expertise was equivalent to 10 Weapon Skill, roughly 3.5% hit.
New Hit Cap is 363 Hit Rating, Hit Rating to Hit% conversion at level 70 is 15.8 = 1% Hit.
3 * 15.8 = 47.4. Round that down, decimals make arithmetic so ugly

363 - 47 = 316

Chuck in the new food buff and you have a hit cap of 296, with a Draenei Warrior in your party you get 281.

Of course to check my figures you may have to search for Imp FF on these forums and read the Weapon Expertise threads.

Last edited by Krollin : 10/18/07 at 10:11 AM. Reason: Be accurate young man or go west via the exit!
#100SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Kellhus
Originally Posted by mmaker View Post
But if you take the numbers of the first page for example, saying swords is 5% more dps then daggers it equals to 1050 dps for a swordrogue if the daggers holds 1000 dps. So in reality the differents is not much.
In the span of 2 seconds, yes. It's fairly mild looking, but still 5%. Over the course of a 10+ minute fight (read as: any raid boss these days) it becomes a more respectable number when weighed against the fact that our job, as a class, is to eek the most possible damage out of a timeframe that we can.

5% more damage is 5% more damage any way you slice it. I guess I'm just of the mind that given the option, why would you purposefully do 5% less damage (all things being equal of course, and pretending you have access to weapon drops that make different builds possible)?
#101SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Krollin
The figure of 5% more DPS for Swords over Daggers hasn't been substantiated.
Any of these comparisons are only meangingful in ideal circumstances and that means never take the results literally.

Stupidly enough it is the Arena OH weapons which bring Swords up, the only other OH sword available before Mount Hyjal, Latros, hardly compares.

I suspect Blizzard were balancing things via itemisation but screwed up royally with Arena PvP items. In more ways than one as well.

It is remarkable that Dagger itemisation continues to be superior in PvE and that if it weren't for Arena gear Combat Daggers would still be the best Raiding spec purely because of that. Well until BT perhaps.

I wonder what the effect of fast high quality OH swords would have had in Vanilla WoW if they were more generally available before Naxx. I do not include Maladath in the fast bracket compared to what you can get now although it was a tasty OH way back when.
A job for the spreadsheet indeed.

Last edited by Krollin : 10/18/07 at 10:23 AM. Reason: Talking about OH weapons from MH could be confusing
#102SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Arindelest
Originally Posted by Krollin View Post

I wonder what the effect of fast high quality OH swords would have had in Vanilla WoW if they were more generally available before Naxx. I do not include Maladath in the fast bracket compared to what you can get now although it was a tasty OH way back when.
A job for the spreadsheet indeed.
It's important to note that Combat Potency didn't exist in Vanilla WoW, so the value of a fast OH, while still important, was not as large as it is now.

Also pre-xpac Sword Spec (and indeed up until 2.1) reset the swing timer when proccing off a yellow attack, making it less desireable than Daggers.
#103SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Drunk
Ermm guys, 2 post mentioning new hit cap... what? I found nowhere in the 2.3 changelog about that, current hit cap is simply 0% white dmg miss... new hit cap will mean base miss % increase or what?
#104SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3zeth_russ
Originally Posted by Drunk View Post
Ermm guys, 2 post mentioning new hit cap... what? I found nowhere in the 2.3 changelog about that, current hit cap is simply 0% white dmg miss... new hit cap will mean base miss % increase or what?
the new hit cap is the same as the old hit cap - the change is that weapon expertise now gives expertise instead of weapon skill. The +hit previously gained from +skill (in the form of -miss) now has to be fully made up for with +hit.
#105SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3mmaker
Originally Posted by Kellhus View Post
In the span of 2 seconds, yes. It's fairly mild looking, but still 5%. Over the course of a 10+ minute fight (read as: any raid boss these days) it becomes a more respectable number when weighed against the fact that our job, as a class, is to eek the most possible damage out of a timeframe that we can.

5% more damage is 5% more damage any way you slice it. I guess I'm just of the mind that given the option, why would you purposefully do 5% less damage (all things being equal of course, and pretending you have access to weapon drops that make different builds possible)?
Well if you play 10 min, 50 more dps is 30k damage. And 30k in 10 min is not much imo

The reason you should pick dagger over sword even if swords has higher dps is simple because its 10 times more fun, atleast for me. The only thing i wanted to say was that people seems to choice swords over other speccs because of the "awesome" dps instead of asking themself what
they think is fun. If nihilum had dagger rogues when they took illidan world first, its good enough dps for me atleast
#106SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Vulajin
I believe that, over the next day or two, I'll begin updating the first post with some preliminary 2.3 information. So far what we have is a pretty good chunk (if not all) of the new items that will be available, a new weapon enchant on which I feel like I need more data before I can reach any conclusions, and of course, the expertise change, for which we're sort of relying on the assumption that Blizzard isn't changing the base miss rate against a raid boss. If they're not, the 363 hit cap holds. Otherwise, who knows.

Everything will go in a separate section near the top, since it's what people seem to want to know about lately, and none of it is considered final yet. As always, please double check anything I post for accuracy.

Regarding the 5% DPS difference with daggers: I caution everyone not to get too caught up in numbers like that. Such a number is, by necessity, an approximation. Swords, daggers, fists, and maces all scale slightly differently with gear; as a result, the difference will vary slightly. 5% difference assumes a particular level of gear (I believe I did that comparison using the same assumed T4 level of gear I used for the stat weights) that certainly may not be true for everyone. That's why I always stress double-checking any "rule" given here with the spreadsheets.
#107SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3roq
Originally Posted by Talda View Post
I have ever since been on Combat Daggers until the start of S2, I changed to Maces for more Arena viabilty then. On raids without t4, having no t5 4 bonus yet, the cycle 3s/5r worked for me fine there.
Now I am back to daggers again, still searching for the perfect cycle, and I have to confess that 5s/5r never works out for me, after 5s building up cps again I have about ~7 to 8s left until snd runs out, so it probably is about 5s/2r at max for me, even having t5 4bonus now.
anyone any ideas or experiences?
Run 1s/3r. It works fine as long as you have the 2 piece t4.

Vulajin, as for your combat Daggers section about SnD. It looks fine. I don't see anything wrong with it. Currently i am a huge supporter of the 1s/3r cycle as you are suggesting, and used to run 3s/5s/5r before i had the set bonus.
#108SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Autolycus
In Reguards to the attack cycle, I find myself using shiv quite often as opposed to sinister strike when i notice the timer on my deadly poison stack getting low, so i can keep it at 5 poisons. I also use shiv at the beginning of the fight to get my SnD up quicker. Is this acceptable practice to switch this in and out of the attack cycle like I am, or should i just be sticking solely with sinister strike?
#109SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3saedo
I'd like to suggest a section on Rupture.

It may be a no brainer to use it for some of us, but I know some rogues that know little about DPE, assumes Evis is better cause they can see 3K crits once in a while, and thinks Evis scales better.
#110SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Kellhus
Originally Posted by mmaker View Post
Well if you play 10 min, 50 more dps is 30k damage. And 30k in 10 min is not much imo

The reason you should pick dagger over sword even if swords has higher dps is simple because its 10 times more fun, atleast for me. The only thing i wanted to say was that people seems to choice swords over other speccs because of the "awesome" dps instead of asking themself what
they think is fun. If nihilum had dagger rogues when they took illidan world first, its good enough dps for me atleast
In a rogue theorycraft thread, the entire idea is maximizing your damage by understanding the supporting math. Choosing not to for fun is fine, knock yourself out. But it does sort of defeat the purpose of a thread centered on, as stated above, maximizing your damage.

For any rogue who takes the current spreadsheets as valid, daggers does less damage then swords - end of story. This doesn't say daggers doesn't do "enough" damage, however. It simply says swords does more, by however small/large a margin your spec/gear/playstyle creates.

and the 5% thing wasn't something I was taking as gospel -- I responded to a post that used it, and I was just making my point referencing it.
#111SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Vulajin
Originally Posted by Autolycus View Post
In Reguards to the attack cycle, I find myself using shiv quite often as opposed to sinister strike when i notice the timer on my deadly poison stack getting low, so i can keep it at 5 poisons. I also use shiv at the beginning of the fight to get my SnD up quicker. Is this acceptable practice to switch this in and out of the attack cycle like I am, or should i just be sticking solely with sinister strike?
Personally, I never Shiv to save DP stacks, but I've never actually done any math to support my practice. So here comes some math:

Looking at my handy spreadsheet here, I can see that over any given span of 12 seconds, I have roughly a 4% chance not to proc DP. So let's assume that means I have a 4% chance to need to Shiv every 12 seconds. Let's completely ignore any other ramifications with respect to my cycle. This means that on average, I'll Shiv once every 300 seconds.

Using my current gear, [Talon of Azshara] and [Merciless Gladiator's Quickblade], my SS damage is roughly 1184, while my Shiv damage is roughly 426. So let's say I'm trading exactly one Sinister Strike for one Shiv every 300 seconds to keep DP up 100% of the time. That's 758 damage given up every 300 seconds.

Now, with my current gear assuming never Shivving, DP deals about 72 DPS. If I increase my DP uptime to exactly 100%, the DPS increases by 3.36. Over 300 seconds, that's an increase of roughly 1007 damage. This assumes 3/5 Vile Poisons. With 0/5 Vile Poisons, it's 899 damage.

So, if you only Shiv in the case where DP is in imminent danger of falling off, then you will gain approximately 0.5-1 DPS. In my opinion, this isn't even remotely worth the kind of micromanagement it would take to make sure you're only Shivving when you aren't going to get a proc and that you always have the GCD to Shiv at that last possible second to refresh the stack.

In other words, never Shiv. Ever. If you need to get SnD up quickly at the start of the fight, use a 1-2 CP SnD before starting your normal cycle. Don't Shiv for it. The speedier gain in CP is nowhere near worth the loss of DPS.

Originally Posted by saedo
I'd like to suggest a section on Rupture.

It may be a no brainer to use it for some of us, but I know some rogues that know little about DPE, assumes Evis is better cause they can see 3K crits once in a while, and thinks Evis scales better.
Perhaps I'll throw in a blurb at the start of the CP cycle section.
#112SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Fands
First, I'd like to say thanks for the great post on maximizing DPS, anytime a new rogue asks I send them here.
I have a question about the change to WF a while back. For me at least (ToA and Arena2 OH, 297 hit) the dps spreadsheet shows that GoA in combination with 2 poisons is actually higher dps (1.5 dps) than WF + poison raid buffed. It also shows there is almost no difference (0.05) between what poison goes on the MH and OH. Are both of these now generally the case? I'm curious as I usually pick my melee group make up and its generally 1 enh shammy, 2-4 rogues, feral druid or dps warrior. Should I stick with GoA regardless of group make up?
#113SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Vulajin
Originally Posted by Fands View Post
First, I'd like to say thanks for the great post on maximizing DPS, anytime a new rogue asks I send them here.
I have a question about the change to WF a while back. For me at least (ToA and Arena2 OH, 297 hit) the dps spreadsheet shows that GoA in combination with 2 poisons is actually higher dps (1.5 dps) than WF + poison raid buffed. It also shows there is almost no difference (0.05) between what poison goes on the MH and OH. Are both of these now generally the case? I'm curious as I usually pick my melee group make up and its generally 1 enh shammy, 2-4 rogues, feral druid or dps warrior. Should I stick with GoA regardless of group make up?
Windfury is definitely still better for you, but definitely by a much smaller margin than it used to be. My spreadsheet gives me about a 12 DPS loss switching from WF to GoA+IP. Rule of thumb: if there's a warrior in that group at all, you should have your shaman dropping WF. You also want that warrior in the group because Battle Shout is a gigantic DPS increase, particularly if talented. The feral druid is probably the most dispensable member of the group, so if you need to choose, go with enhance shaman + rogues + fury warrior and have the shaman drop WF. If the group doesn't have a fury warrior (e.g. enhance shaman + feral druid + 3 rogues), then dropping GoA might be better for the group overall.
#114SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3path411
Originally Posted by Vulajin View Post
On raid buffs: the ideal party for a rogue is typically feral druid + fury warrior + enhance shaman + rogue + rogue. The biggest DPS buffs for a combat build are Battle Shout (5/5 improved), Unleashed Rage, Blessing of Might (5/5 improved), Grace of Air/Windfury (see further below), Leader of the Pack, in that order. If your raid is short on paladins, Salvation > Might > Kings. If your raid doesn't have an enhancement shaman, a resto shaman in the group dropping totems will do just fine (Unleashed Rage is the big difference, Enhancing Totems and Improved Weapon Totems have very little impact).
I would ask why is Salvation rated higher then Might and Kings. Maybe on bosses where an aggro wipe is present in a form of phase or multiple mobs, but on a single target boss I never have problem with threat due to simply Vanishing around 70-80% and then again around 20-30%

Originally Posted by Vulajin View Post
On poisons and Windfury: for PvE, always choose DP on the offhand. If you are in a group with a shaman and you're combat, you'll generally get more DPS from Windfury as opposed to Grace of Air + IP. However, the difference is not as dramatic as it is for, say, a DPS warrior. If your group contains a DPS warrior, Windfury Totem will usually be dropped. Otherwise, if less than half the group is rogues, Grace of Air Totem will probably be dropped and you should use IP on the MH. Always check with the shaman in your group. For Mutilate, Grace of Air Totem is probably preferable, but Windfury Totem is still quite powerful. Note that dual DP is a waste for all builds except Mutilate, and only if you use Envenom.
I have always shown more DPS from practice and the spreadsheet from DP on MH and IP OH if no Windfury is present. Am I simply missing something again?
#115SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Keyne
Shiv

Originally Posted by Autolycus View Post
In Reguards to the attack cycle, I find myself using shiv quite often as opposed to sinister strike when i notice the timer on my deadly poison stack getting low, so i can keep it at 5 poisons. I also use shiv at the beginning of the fight to get my SnD up quicker. Is this acceptable practice to switch this in and out of the attack cycle like I am, or should i just be sticking solely with sinister strike?
I can see using Shiv to reapply DP if it prevents the stack from falling off, as DP falling off is a Very Bad Thing. However, I don't see how Shiv'ing at the start of combat gets SnD off any 'faster'. As I understand it*, SS and Shiv invoke the same GCD, and both award one CP with which to get SND up, which I understand are the only factors that affect how fast SnD can be used. If Shiv and SS are equal in this regard (getting SnD up), you should use whichever skill is higher DPS (or DPE or whatever).

* My conclusion here admittedly is not ironclad, as I am not an expert rogue. (I'm still leveling her, and thus still learning the ins and outs of roguery.) My conclusions, like any good conclusion, is based off assumptions. If my assumptions are valid, then my conclusion is valid (read as: use SS, not Shiv at the start). If I am somehow misinformed on my assumptions, please let me know, as I enjoy learning...
#116SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Mideci
"I can see using Shiv to reapply DP if it prevents the stack from falling off, as DP falling off is a Very Bad Thing"

No it really isn't so terrible. It doesn't happen often and when it does it'll be back soon. All the models assume that deadly poison will do a certain amount of dps based on how often it's applied and its damage value.

You don't need to break the cycle to reapply DP as was demonstrated above (it might provide some infinitesimal dps boost but for most of us at the cost of our rhythm).

As for shiv-ing early, shiv requires a lot less energy than SS does. So if you are obsesses about getting SnD up -- and as the fight goes this is the thing you *must* have up at all times -- then you can shiv your way to some combo pts and SnD with more time on the counter faster than you can do the same with SS. I suppose it depends on your cycle and how you many CP is normal for you before you SnD. If it's a higher number, this might make sense with the proviso that it's still out of rhythm: First pass, 4x shiv, SnD, start real cycle vs. First pass, <normal SS, SnD, start real cycle.
#117SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Vulajin
Originally Posted by path411 View Post
I would ask why is Salvation rated higher then Might and Kings. Maybe on bosses where an aggro wipe is present in a form of phase or multiple mobs, but on a single target boss I never have problem with threat due to simply Vanishing around 70-80% and then again around 20-30%
Do you have Salvation on you when doing that?

Salvation is obviously not quantifiable, but it has huge intangible value. On Hydross, Leotheras, Lurker, and Al'ar, at the very least, Salvation has great benefit due to threat wipes or having to DPS adds quickly without pulling aggro on them. Additionally, on Morogrim and Void Reaver, it's easily possible to have threat issues as your gear scales up (since tank threat scales slower than DPS). On Vashj, I would consider Vanishing for threat a liability, since you never know when you may need it on phase 3 to escape being rooted in toxic spores.

Originally Posted by path411
I have always shown more DPS from practice and the spreadsheet from DP on MH and IP OH if no Windfury is present. Am I simply missing something again?
Different spreadsheets give different results. However, both the gear spreadsheet and my personal spreadsheet put IP/DP above DP/IP.
#118SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Aldriana
Originally Posted by path411 View Post
I would ask why is Salvation rated higher then Might and Kings. Maybe on bosses where an aggro wipe is present in a form of phase or multiple mobs, but on a single target boss I never have problem with threat due to simply Vanishing around 70-80% and then again around 20-30%
Perhaps your tanks are better than the ones I've dealt with, but having played with about 5 different tanks in two different guilds, in most cases I'm generating 90% (or more) of the aggro of the tank even with salvation on. Without salvation, then, I'd be generating something like 125% of his aggro, and thereby would need to spend a lot of time holding back to avoid pulling aggro, even with vanish. Consider: it's 5 minutes between vanishes. If one is dealing 125% of the aggro of the tank, it takes the tank 6.25 minutes to generate this much aggro. Hence, your first vanish would need to occur 75 seconds into the fight to avoid pulling aggro before the 2nd vanish. Thus, one would need to spend the first 75 seconds of the fight dealing less than 80% of your damage potential, which is just a huge waste of damage. Also, there's more potential for accidentally pulling aggro, which is usual fatal and thus an even larger loss of DPS.

I'm not going to say that there aren't combinations of really good tanks and undergeared rogues that render salvation unnecessary; but I do think the general rule that salvation is the most important rogue buff is correct.
#119SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3path411
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
Perhaps your tanks are better than the ones I've dealt with, but having played with about 5 different tanks in two different guilds, in most cases I'm generating 90% (or more) of the aggro of the tank even with salvation on. Without salvation, then, I'd be generating something like 125% of his aggro, and thereby would need to spend a lot of time holding back to avoid pulling aggro, even with vanish. Consider: it's 5 minutes between vanishes. If one is dealing 125% of the aggro of the tank, it takes the tank 6.25 minutes to generate this much aggro. Hence, your first vanish would need to occur 75 seconds into the fight to avoid pulling aggro before the 2nd vanish. Thus, one would need to spend the first 75 seconds of the fight dealing less than 80% of your damage potential, which is just a huge waste of damage. Also, there's more potential for accidentally pulling aggro, which is usual fatal and thus an even larger loss of DPS.

I'm not going to say that there aren't combinations of really good tanks and undergeared rogues that render salvation unnecessary; but I do think the general rule that salvation is the most important rogue buff is correct.
Maybe I wait too long to start DPS, but I normally I can blow AR/BF right around 85-90%, vanish after and be good on threat. (I am mainly basing this off of Gruul since that's the furthest we have down so far =/)

Originally Posted by Vulajin
Do you have Salvation on you when doing that?

Salvation is obviously not quantifiable, but it has huge intangible value. On Hydross, Leotheras, Lurker, and Al'ar, at the very least, Salvation has great benefit due to threat wipes or having to DPS adds quickly without pulling aggro on them. Additionally, on Morogrim and Void Reaver, it's easily possible to have threat issues as your gear scales up (since tank threat scales slower than DPS). On Vashj, I would consider Vanishing for threat a liability, since you never know when you may need it on phase 3 to escape being rooted in toxic spores.
We are on a shortage of Paladins and normally rogues just get might/kings.
Yeah, I can see salv very useful in all of those fights with adds/threat wipes. (We just did our first attempts on Lootreaver this week and once we get it down I'll definitely be needing salv )


I'm hoping that I've been doing fine from having a tank that can threat well instead of a lack in my part, haha.
#120SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Aldriana
Well, okay, on Gruul, I can see not needing salv; your DPS is interrupted enough that it's hard to keep good, tight cycles up. Also, it has been my impression that rogue DPS scales faster than tank threat, so what's true in T4 may not be true in T5 and T6. On uninterrupted sustained fights like Tidewalker and Gorefiend, I have found salvation to be essential.
#121SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3path411
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
Well, okay, on Gruul, I can see not needing salv; your DPS is interrupted enough that it's hard to keep good, tight cycles up. Also, it has been my impression that rogue DPS scales faster than tank threat, so what's true in T4 may not be true in T5 and T6. On uninterrupted sustained fights like Tidewalker and Gorefiend, I have found salvation to be essential.
Okies, excuse my lack of progression then. =/


On a completely different topic, I've always wondered if I've been loosing DPS on my ARs and how to use my AR efficiently because few people specifically talk about it. Normally I end up for one cycle just going 1s/5r/3e.
#122SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
 Vulajin
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
Well, okay, on Gruul, I can see not needing salv; your DPS is interrupted enough that it's hard to keep good, tight cycles up. Also, it has been my impression that rogue DPS scales faster than tank threat, so what's true in T4 may not be true in T5 and T6. On uninterrupted sustained fights like Tidewalker and Gorefiend, I have found salvation to be essential.
As an addendum to this, most of the conclusions in the first post apply to what I consider to be "after-T4," referring to the gear and progression level encompassing Karazhan, Gruul, Mag, and world bosses. A rogue at this level would be just about to start in SSC/TK, or might already have killed Void Reaver or Lurker. Gear will mostly consist of Netherblade, Kara epics, rep rewards, heroic epics, and maybe arena 2 weapons.

If someone were still in dungeon blues running heroics, not every fact in the thread would be 100% accurate.

Originally Posted by path411
On a completely different topic, I've always wondered if I've been loosing DPS on my ARs and how to use my AR efficiently because few people specifically talk about it. Normally I end up for one cycle just going 1s/5r/3e.
If possible, start AR right after hitting SnD. Assuming a normal cycle of 1s/5r, the goal would be to instead do 1s/5r/5e for one cycle.

Last edited by Vulajin : 10/18/07 at 3:59 PM.
#123SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3path411
Originally Posted by Vulajin View Post
As an addendum to this, most of the conclusions in the first post apply to what I consider to be "after-T4," referring to the gear and progression level encompassing Karazhan, Gruul, Mag, and world bosses. A rogue at this level would be just about to start in SSC/TK, or might already have killed Void Reaver or Lurker. Gear will mostly consist of Netherblade, Kara epics, rep rewards, heroic epics, and maybe arena 2 weapons.

If someone were still in dungeon blues running heroics, not every fact in the thread would be 100% accurate.
I would consider myself ready and capable of competing in t5 instances. I guess as you put it "after-T4". I think the main point is you won't really see some of the points until you are actually in SSC/TK

Originally Posted by Vulajin View Post
If possible, start AR right after hitting SnD. Assuming a normal cycle of 1s/5r, the goal would be to instead do 1s/5r/5e for one cycle.
Thanks, I'll try using that and see how it goes.
#124SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Krollin
Edited this out to merge into one reply.

Last edited by Krollin : 10/18/07 at 4:56 PM.
#125SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Krollin
Originally Posted by Arindelest View Post
It's important to note that Combat Potency didn't exist in Vanilla WoW, so the value of a fast OH, while still important, was not as large as it is now.

Also pre-xpac Sword Spec (and indeed up until 2.1) reset the swing timer when proccing off a yellow attack, making it less desireable than Daggers.
Patch 2.0 brought in the new Talent Trees for everyone in Vanilla WoW giving us Combat Potency. I was Mutilate specced from then on until I hit the endgame in TBC.

The Sword spec bug did not have that drastic an effect on your DPS. Undesirable, irritating but hardly a deciding factor for speccing away from swords.

Itemisation plays a major factor in how you spec, in this case Arena PvP gear was what made Sword Spec the obvious choice of build and not what was available from PvE content.

The other factor was type of encounter.

Originally Posted by Vulajin View Post
Windfury is definitely still better for you, but definitely by a much smaller margin than it used to be. My spreadsheet gives me about a 12 DPS loss switching from WF to GoA+IP. Rule of thumb: if there's a warrior in that group at all, you should have your shaman dropping WF. You also want that warrior in the group because Battle Shout is a gigantic DPS increase, particularly if talented. The feral druid is probably the most dispensable member of the group, so if you need to choose, go with enhance shaman + rogues + fury warrior and have the shaman drop WF. If the group doesn't have a fury warrior (e.g. enhance shaman + feral druid + 3 rogues), then dropping GoA might be better for the group overall.
There is room for a Retribution Paladin too because they use 'that' aura to give you a 2% increase on all your dmg.

My ideal group would be me, Enhancement Shaman (WF), Warrior (BS), Retridin, BM Hunter.
I get nothing from having any other Rogue in the party, another Warrior the same.
Choice of 2% general increase in DPS + healing from Judgement or 5% crit and the odd healing proc from Imp LotP. I prefer the Paladin in there for some reason.
#126SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Vulajin
Originally Posted by Krollin View Post
There is room for a Retribution Paladin too because they use 'that' aura to give you a 2% increase on all your dmg.

My ideal group would be me, Enhancement Shaman (WF), Warrior (BS), Retridin, BM Hunter.
I get nothing from having any other Rogue in the party, another Warrior the same.
Choice of 2% general increase in DPS + healing from Judgement or 5% crit and the odd healing proc from Imp LotP. I prefer the Paladin in there for some reason.
Even at 2000 DPS, a 2% DPS gain is 40. This is roughly on par with what I get from Leader of the Pack right now at 1400 DPS. Still, I wouldn't mind taking the ret paladin over the feral druid in my ideal group, given that the feral druid doesn't benefit at all from WF, and the ret paladin does.

Regarding not having a second (or third) rogue in there, I understand that other rogues offer nothing to you, but unless you're running a raid with only one rogue, there are going to be other rogues around, and they need a group. I'm willing to venture that it's a far bigger loss of DPS to shove a second rogue into some suboptimal group just so that you can get all the DPS boosts you want.

I would argue against the inclusion of a BM hunter in this melee group. Although I love Ferocious Inspiration as much as anyone else, all the BM hunter is getting here is Battle Shout and Imp Sanc Aura. I was under the impression that BM hunters were preferred for caster groups with shadow priests anyway. If not, I stand corrected.
#127SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3aquasheep
Originally Posted by Krollin View Post
I get nothing from having any other Rogue in the party, another Warrior the same.
This is true if you only have one rogue in your raid, but with multiple rogues, the benefit the raid gains from giving them all (at minimum) an Enhancement Shaman and Warrior with Imp BS is going to be better than stacking one super-dps group and leaving the other rogues to slum it up in a leftover group.

In my guild, at least, we usually only raid with one Enhancement Shaman and 2-3 rogues. Usually we toss all three in one group with the Sham and one of the DPS Warrs; if we swapped one of the BM hunters in there, the other four get the bonus from FI, but it's not nearly enough to make up for the other rogue losing BS, UR, and possibly WF.
#128SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Trazhenko
Salv is definitely very important. This week we somehow managed to pull Najentus without realizing salv was not buffed on most of the raid, and I was riding the tank pretty much the whole fight.

Typically I watch omen and don't start damage till I see the tank has 6-8K threat. I'll open with a 1 or 2 point SnD, then blow everything (haste pot/bf/ar/berserking). I typically have to vanish not long after AR wears off, but I rarely catch back up to the tank unless I'm having an absolutely amazing day.
#129SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Shaker
Originally Posted by Krollin View Post
The Sword spec bug did not have that drastic an effect on your DPS. Undesirable, irritating but hardly a deciding factor for speccing away from swords.
Well, other than it basically making it do half as much damage as it currently does (on average)...

Itemisation plays a major factor in how you spec, in this case Arena PvP gear was what made Sword Spec the obvious choice of build and not what was available from PvE content.
You're just stubbornly holding onto some notion that daggers really is better and it's just these weird "quirks" that are causing people to go swords when supposedly, everyone really wants to be daggers or something. Swords are numerically (at least at current T4+ raid target levels) superior, and the reasons for it are NOT due to itemization, nor due to encounter types, it's due to game mechanics - they may change in the future (as they have in the past), but CURRENTLY swords are stronger, not by a huge margin, but enough to matter to some people.

I get nothing from having any other Rogue in the party, another Warrior the same.
I don't think anyone cares about a single rogue's DPS except maybe the rogue, or his raid leader if it sucks - raidwide DPS is so far above personal dps that this statement is just ridiculous.
#130SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Aldriana
Originally Posted by Shaker View Post
You're just stubbornly holding onto some notion that daggers really is better and it's just these weird "quirks" that are causing people to go swords when supposedly, everyone really wants to be daggers or something. Swords are numerically (at least at current T4+ raid target levels) superior, and the reasons for it are NOT due to itemization, nor due to encounter types, it's due to game mechanics - they may change in the future (as they have in the past), but CURRENTLY swords are stronger, not by a huge margin, but enough to matter to some people.
Well, I think his assertion was that the availability of good, fast OH swords via PvP are making swords stronger than they otherwise might be, which is true. However, you are correct in that this effect is not large enough to matter; even without the availability of PvP weapons, sworrds would be superior. For instance, according the Rogue Gear Spreadsheet: with my current gear and typical raid buffs, I would do as much damage with Talon of Azshara/Latro's as I would with Shard of Azzinoth/Messenger of Fate (the optimal daggers for combat daggers) - even against targets where Murder does not apply. And when one can match the damage output of the best daggers in the game with an early SSC drop and a blue from a non-heroic 5 man, that's a pretty good indicator that daggers are a bit weak right now.
#131SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Shaker
Yes, that was exactly my point.

Also, I want to come clearly out and say that I don't believe that this disparity is "right" or imply that swords are inherently better and should remain that way - I honestly think that when you're talking about deep combat, they should be as close as possible, and I certainly wouldn't begrudge daggers a slight buff to make them closer.

That being said, I honestly can't remember a time when they were closer - I'm pretty sure that by mid-Naxx, your combat dagger builds were more than 5% better than a sword build with an equal gear level. But I'll admit that's just conjecture.
#132SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Aldriana
Well, the complication in Naxx was the lack of swords; until one killed Kel'thuzad, there wasn't a single MH sword available that did more than 58.5 DPS, whereas Rag dropped a dagger that did that much and there were 3 viable MH Daggers over 60 DPS in AQ40 and the early parts of Naxx - so it tended to be the case in Naxx that dagger rogues had higher DPS MH weapons than did sword rogues, hence their DPS tends to be higher. My sense is that when you did actually have sword rogues with weapons of comparable quality, the difference was probably of equal magnitude; there was simply an itemization gap that made it appear larger.
#133SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Vulajin
I still maintain that offhand sword spec needs to be changed to proc an extra offhand attack. Even if it does, sword spec still scales beyond any other spec once you have high levels of crit and hit. However, changing offhand sword spec will increase the competitiveness of other weapon specs. The primary downside of doing this would be that */sword hybrid specs would lose a lot of their competitiveness. However, without a change like this, sword spec will continue to be far too powerful for its own good, and the only fix would be to make the other specs equally overpowered.
#134SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Aldriana
I agree that some way of equalizing the specs is probably needed. The most likely options would seem to be:

1) OH Sword hits proc OH attacks
2) Internal cooldown on Sword Spec (as is true of Windfury Weapon for shamans)
3) Reinstatement of the previous sword spec mechanic, wherein Sword Spec procs reset the MH swing timer.

Any of these would do nicely in bringing the specs back towards balance; the fact that they would nerf hybrid xxx/sword specs is not really that big a deal; they would be replaced with nonhybrid specs. For instance, hybrid fist/sword spec would be replaced with fist/fist spec; instead of using Talon of the Phoenix/Quickblade, you'd use Talon of the Phoenix/Claw of the Phoenix.

The issue that I would be concerned about with such a change is that it would effectively be a blanket rogue nerf; as most raiding rogues are swords right now, this would work out to a 5% reduction in rogue DPS for the majority of raiders. Particularly since the recent rogue nerfs (to Haste Rating, Dragonspine Trophy, Weapon Skill, etc.) I fear that such a change would drop rogues dangerously low in DPS output, to the extent that our value in a raid would be called into question. As such, while I do feel that a weapon specialization rebalancing is needed, I think it also needs to be accompanied with balance tweaks in other areas to help rogues maintain they're value to 25-man raids.
#135SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Sebek
I haven't been able to find any real in depth topic covering this, and maybe they're just Bible and I'm not looking in the right places. But where and how did we establish these values?

Stat weighting depends heavily on the stats a character already possesses. The following general guidelines are based roughly on a projected tier 4 level of gear (Kara/Gruul/Mag/world bosses). These guidelines work by comparing the amount of DPS provided by any one stat to the amount of DPS provided by a point of Attack Power:

1 Strength = 1 AP (1.1 with Kings)
1 Agility = 2 AP (2.2 with Kings)
1 Crit Rating = 1.6 AP
1 Hit Rating = 2.3 AP
4 Armor Penetration = 1 AP
1 Haste Rating = 2.3 AP
What I might be more specifically asking is, what was the testing method to arrive at these figures, how much are these numbers rounded, et cetera. Obviously as the spreadsheets imply, which stat is more valuable depends on where your character is already sitting. But if you were to make a spreadsheet that just broke down every piece of gear, and said Gear(A) is superior to Gear(B) in a vacuum, you have to start with these base numbers.

[edit] Yes I know of the shadow panther website, but even he has 3 different formulas for what exactly AEP is. I'm not claiming the numbers are wrong, I'd just like to look at the formula, especially with the hit cap changing, and see where the formula is. And also because I see a lot of rogues sitting well below the hit cap and doing just fine on DPS.

Last edited by Sebek : 10/18/07 at 10:06 PM.
#136SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Vulajin
Originally Posted by Sebek View Post
I haven't been able to find any real in depth topic covering this, and maybe they're just Bible and I'm not looking in the right places. But where and how did we establish these values?
They were pulled from Aldriana's rogue gear spreadsheet, using as a base an "after-T4" gear set as best I could judge it. To my best satisfaction, the values given for that gear set agree with values given for arbitrary other gear sets a rogue might be found wearing.

Originally Posted by Sebek
[edit] Yes I know of the shadow panther website, but even he has 3 different formulas for what exactly AEP is. I'm not claiming the numbers are wrong, I'd just like to look at the formula, especially with the hit cap changing, and see where the formula is. And also because I see a lot of rogues sitting well below the hit cap and doing just fine on DPS.
If you see a rogue doing well on DPS with well below the hit cap, it is likely because he has gear that is so good even without hit that it doesn't matter. Such gear exists, in large quantities, at the Hyjal/BT gear level.
#137SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Harmonics
Is sword spec really over that overpowered though that it would be catastrophic to buff the other two to equality? (well maybe maces in pvp, ouch) It seems like rogues do pretty decent damage in raids these days but would adding more dps be absurdly overpowered?

Also, I mean that as a 'fo reals' question. I stopped raiding in Kara, and my own rogue is only 51 at the moment.
#138SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Vulajin
Originally Posted by Harmonics View Post
Is sword spec really over that overpowered though that it would be catastrophic to buff the other two to equality? (well maybe maces in pvp, ouch) It seems like rogues do pretty decent damage in raids these days but would adding more dps be absurdly overpowered?

Also, I mean that as a 'fo reals' question. I stopped raiding in Kara, and my own rogue is only 51 at the moment.
I suppose using the word "overpowered" was a tad inaccurate. If rogue damage falls behind that of classes that bring more than just damage to raids (read: most other classes), then we've got a balance issue. However, there's definitely an issue within the scope of the class itself if the spec with least utility other than in raids doesn't do the most damage (or even tie for the most damage).

I wouldn't mind seeing one or more of the weapon specs changed to 1/2/3/4/5% haste. That would scale much better relative to sword spec.
#139SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Aldriana
The difficulty with "buffing the others to match" is the *way* in which Swords are overpowered. The problem is not that swords are too strong in general; on the MH, sword spec is well-balanced against the other two specs; it's a bit weaker than fist at low gear levels, a bit strong at high gear levels, a little worse than mace for PvP, and a bit better than mace for PvE. The problem is that sword spec on the offhand is about 3 times as good as any of the other specs on the offhand. Thus, the naive solution of just bumping fist spec up to 1.5% crit per level doesn't work; all that would do is make fist/sword hybrid spec more powerful, and you still have the fundamental issue that everyone wants to offhand a sword. If it were just a case that "swords in general are too strong", it'd be easy to fix by buffing the others. Since the problem is that "OH Swords are too powerful", it's harder to fix without nerfing sword spec.
#140SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Mideci
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
Well, okay, on Gruul, I can see not needing salv; your DPS is interrupted enough that it's hard to keep good, tight cycles up. Also, it has been my impression that rogue DPS scales faster than tank threat, so what's true in T4 may not be true in T5 and T6. On uninterrupted sustained fights like Tidewalker and Gorefiend, I have found salvation to be essential.
Not to belabor this point, but in Gruul I cannot imagine being without salvation. Even with the ground slam / shatter and some awfully solid tanks, I have to vanish during Gruul. With salvation up.

I can only imagine that the guild which doesn't need salvation on rogues has exceptionally good tanks generated exceptionally good threat or rogues not generating the dps they ought to be.

Another "must have salv" fight is Void Reaver.. And really the list of "must have salv" fights is pretty much the vast majority of them if not all of them.

"Mideci vanish now or you're gonna be tanking soon" is not uncommon. And again our tanks are pretty darned solid and I'm hardly the greatest rogue in WoW.

Last edited by Mideci : 10/19/07 at 7:15 AM.
#141SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3tymoney321
Do daggers scale better with crit or AP?
I read on the nilihum website that daggers should itemize for HIT>CRIT>AP. Why is that true? Or is that a false statement.
#142SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3clii
maces the new top dps raid weapon?

In 2.3 maces may no longer be pvp oriented; be thankful all you rogues that already raid with maces (lawl). Blizzard decided that giving mace rogues +10 expertise was too good or not good enough, either way they made mace specialization give 5% increased critical strike damage. With a mace like syphon of nathrezim sinister strike will be insane and not to mention the extra off hand damage. They didnt remove the stun effect so maybe blizz is finally giving rogues a lil of that hot buff ass. Look foward to seeing some charts and whatnot on this.
#143SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3tymoney321
I can only imagine a mace/sword hybrid with a RED meta gem.
#144SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
 Vulajin
Originally Posted by clii View Post
In 2.3 maces may no longer be pvp oriented; be thankful all you rogues that already raid with maces (lawl). Blizzard decided that giving mace rogues +10 expertise was too good or not good enough, either way they made mace specialization give 5% increased critical strike damage. With a mace like syphon of nathrezim sinister strike will be insane and not to mention the extra off hand damage. They didnt remove the stun effect so maybe blizz is finally giving rogues a lil of that hot buff ass. Look foward to seeing some charts and whatnot on this.
I knew I had forgotten to add something to the first post. According to my preliminary modeling, dual maces will be roughly as good as fists now, and mace/sword hybrid will be slightly behind fist/sword.

Originally Posted by tymoney321
Do daggers scale better with crit or AP?
I read on the nilihum website that daggers should itemize for HIT>CRIT>AP. Why is that true? Or is that a false statement.
According to that rogue's own guide, he does not like theorycraft. Personally, I don't like relying on empirical data. His opinions and those of the majority of the rogues on this forum disagree in several ways, and I would venture that most of ours here are based on solid math, while his are based on intuition and feel (which certainly counts for something, but just being in Nihilum doesn't make one right).

I would leave it up to you to decide which to put more stock in. For what it's worth, I don't believe the weighting of stats changes very much between daggers and swords, though if I'm wrong hopefully someone will correct me here.

Last edited by Vulajin : 10/19/07 at 7:36 AM.
#145SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Krollin
Originally Posted by Vulajin View Post
Even at 2000 DPS, a 2% DPS gain is 40. This is roughly on par with what I get from Leader of the Pack right now at 1400 DPS. Still, I wouldn't mind taking the ret paladin over the feral druid in my ideal group, given that the feral druid doesn't benefit at all from WF, and the ret paladin does.

Regarding not having a second (or third) rogue in there, I understand that other rogues offer nothing to you, but unless you're running a raid with only one rogue, there are going to be other rogues around, and they need a group. I'm willing to venture that it's a far bigger loss of DPS to shove a second rogue into some suboptimal group just so that you can get all the DPS boosts you want.

I would argue against the inclusion of a BM hunter in this melee group. Although I love Ferocious Inspiration as much as anyone else, all the BM hunter is getting here is Battle Shout and Imp Sanc Aura. I was under the impression that BM hunters were preferred for caster groups with shadow priests anyway. If not, I stand corrected.
The word you are looking for but overlooked is ideal and the group setup is my personal choice for reasons other than just DPS. My ideal for my personal DPS and survivability, not the optimum for the Raid.

The healing from Judgement of Light (?) in certain encounters, Hydross in either Phase, Lurker etc, is significant and frees healers up from having to constantly watch over melee. It does not replace it but it makes it easier on them.

Having the melee DPS in one group has other benefits.

2 Rogues, BM Hunter, Warrior, Enhancement Shaman in one group is more convenient in the Raid and means that more advantage is taken of the buffs available.

@Shaker with respect to Sword Spec up to 2.1. The bug only caused the damage caused by OH procs to reset the MH swing, this was not a reduction of DPS by half, it was a reduction of DPS from those OH procs by half, that was not major and not a reason to stay away from sword spec.

Also I am not sticking to the belief that Combat Daggers is better. I have not been saying that either. What I have been saying is that IF the only weapons we had available were from PvE then Daggers would not be at the disadvantage it is currently at.
Sword itemisation compared to Dagger itemisation until MH/BT in PvE stinks.
Fist is worse until SSC and Maces, well Mace Spec in a Raid is fine until the mobs are stunnable. I will resist a rant on that subject.

The word "overpowered" has been used together with Sword Spec. As other have said this is an exaggeration. I think Sword Spec, in terms of DPS, is where the other specs -should- be with the exception of Mace Spec. Must.. resist.. the... rant: Mace Spec has no place in Raids, stunned mobs are a pain for the tanks to have to deal with.

Having Sword Spec cause procs to cause an extra swing for the weapon that procced would balance things out.

I would -love- to see Opportunity changed to give Haste at 1/2/3/4/5% and have the dmg buff built into the skills that are currently buffed by it. Oh and dump Aggression, make Vitality more effective.

In terms of playability -every- other usual build is better than combat daggers. Well possibly not Shadowstep. It is the playability aspect which is why I am going Combat Swords. I must be too old to have grasped this earlier. Mind you I was seduced by Mutilate, Blizzard have dropped the ball on that Talent so no point crying over spilled milk.
#146SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Lunaviel
Originally Posted by Krollin View Post
What I have been saying is that IF the only weapons we had available were from PvE then Daggers would not be at the disadvantage it is currently at.
Sword itemisation compared to Dagger itemisation until MH/BT in PvE stinks.
Are you making the argument that Blizzard purposefully stunted sword itemization as a design decision to reign in sword spec?
#147SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Vulajin
Originally Posted by Krollin View Post
The word you are looking for but overlooked is ideal and the group setup is my personal choice for reasons other than just DPS. My ideal for my personal DPS and survivability, not the optimum for the Raid.

The healing from Judgement of Light (?) in certain encounters, Hydross in either Phase, Lurker etc, is significant and frees healers up from having to constantly watch over melee. It does not replace it but it makes it easier on them.

Having the melee DPS in one group has other benefits.

2 Rogues, BM Hunter, Warrior, Enhancement Shaman in one group is more convenient in the Raid and means that more advantage is taken of the buffs available.
I understand the concept of an "ideal" group, but your ideal group doesn't really have a purpose in discussion if it has nothing to do with reality. I would define "ideal" as the group I would put together in an actual raid, with the success of the raid in mind, if I had all the parts available to do it. Also, I don't understand why you would say "having the melee DPS in one group has other benefits" (on which I don't disagree) and then shove a BM hunter in the group. Finally, last nitpick, Judgment of Light is usable and affects you whether the ret paladin is in your group or not. However, as I said, I wouldn't mind trading the feral druid for the paladin at all.

Also I am not sticking to the belief that Combat Daggers is better. I have not been saying that either. What I have been saying is that IF the only weapons we had available were from PvE then Daggers would not be at the disadvantage it is currently at.
Sword itemisation compared to Dagger itemisation until MH/BT in PvE stinks.
Fist is worse until SSC and Maces, well Mace Spec in a Raid is fine until the mobs are stunnable. I will resist a rant on that subject.
Yes, and this is what Shaker is trying to tell you simply isn't correct. Itemization doesn't have the least bit to do with it. Go ahead and whip out your copy of Aldriana's gear spreadsheet, and do the following comparison: [Vindicator's Brand]+[Latro's Shifting Sword] vs. [Shard of Azzinoth]+[Messenger of Fate]. Make sure you plug in the appropriate respective talent builds. How much does the Hyjal/BT dagger combination come out on top of the pre-raiding swords? Therein lies your problem.

I would -love- to see Opportunity changed to give Haste at 1/2/3/4/5% and have the dmg buff built into the skills that are currently buffed by it.
I venture that this would be an overall negative change, because it would essentially force every build to spec 5 points into Subtlety, instead of just combat dagger builds. It's that reliance on Subtlety that needs to be broken, so combat daggers can get the same 20/41 or variant that everyone else gets.
#148SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Raynforce
Originally posted by Vulajin
I knew I had forgotten to add something to the first post. According to my preliminary modeling, dual maces will be roughly as good as fists now, and mace/sword hybrid will be slightly behind fist/sword.
Would someone mind explaining to me why mace/sword hybrids will be slightly behind fist/sword in terms of dps since both mace and fist specializations give the same bonuses (5% crit) in 2.3?
#149SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Katherine
Originally Posted by Raynforce View Post
Would someone mind explaining to me why mace/sword hybrids will be slightly behind fist/sword in terms of dps since both mace and fist specializations give the same bonuses (5% crit) in 2.3?
Unless i am totally mistaken, Fist-Spec gives overall +5% crit to all attacks in contrary to the Mace-Spec giving you 5% increased damage to all your crits.
#150SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Raynforce
Originally posted by Katherine
Unless i am totally mistaken, Fist-Spec gives overall +5% crit to all attacks in contrary to the Mace-Spec giving you 5% increased damage to all your crits.
Silly me.. should've read the changes to mace spec carefully
#151SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3mmaker
Originally Posted by Kellhus View Post
In a rogue theorycraft thread, the entire idea is maximizing your damage by understanding the supporting math. Choosing not to for fun is fine, knock yourself out. But it does sort of defeat the purpose of a thread centered on, as stated above, maximizing your damage.
Nah it doesnt defeat any purpose since its a great sourch for dagger rogues aswell.

Ty Vulajin for all the work btw!
#152SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Krollin
Originally Posted by Vulajin View Post
I understand the concept of an "ideal" group, but your ideal group doesn't really have a purpose in discussion if it has nothing to do with reality. I would define "ideal" as the group I would put together in an actual raid, with the success of the raid in mind, if I had all the parts available to do it. Also, I don't understand why you would say "having the melee DPS in one group has other benefits" (on which I don't disagree) and then shove a BM hunter in the group. Finally, last nitpick, Judgment of Light is usable and affects you whether the ret paladin is in your group or not. However, as I said, I wouldn't mind trading the feral druid for the paladin at all.
Such things do have a very valid place in a discussion about what you would do in reality.
It allows you to see what make up produces the best results for a given objective.

You can use what you learn from that to make up groups in a Raid because you know how the buffs interact with the members of the party.

I also made no mention of being in a Raid or having to account for raid efficiency.

Too much was being read into what I typed, all the things about "raid", "best for raid" etc came from others. I try to keep what I say simple, add no hidden meaning and I try not to require that the reader has to make assumptions.

I shove the BM Hunter in the "melee group" because if the pet is not a caster then it will be doing melee and be buffing the party doing that. With all due respect to Hunters I am only interested in his pet in my Party, the owner is literally secondary to my needs.
Call it an ideosynchracy of mine if you will.
Originally Posted by Vulajin View Post
Yes, and this is what Shaker is trying to tell you simply isn't correct. Itemization doesn't have the least bit to do with it. Go ahead and whip out your copy of Aldriana's gear spreadsheet, and do the following comparison: [Vindicator's Brand]+[Latro's Shifting Sword] vs. [Shard of Azzinoth]+[Messenger of Fate]. Make sure you plug in the appropriate respective talent builds. How much does the Hyjal/BT dagger combination come out on top of the pre-raiding swords? Therein lies your problem.
Hey, I am not disputing that Swords is better than Daggers.
I see the results in reality, where the metal meets the meat, to be different. If I were doing less dmg with my gear (Malchazeen, Heroic Dagger) than a Vindicator/Latros equipped Rogue I would be tearing my hair out.
If I were not doing significantly more dmg I would be looking for what I was doing wrong.
The spreadsheet, any spreadsheet, gives approximate results under ideal conditions.
While it is a guide it is not a reflection of what happens in practice.
As you said about my ideal group, it is not what happens in practice.

I would be horrified if the state of play in the game was actually that shown by the spreadsheet. I don't think it is either, mainly because my own experience tells me that it isn't.
Fact is that itemization -does- play a role and I do contend that Blizzard use itemisation as a tool to balance things out.
There is very strong evidence of this in every patch note where they change item stats.
They didn't just drop the ball on this, they kicked it out of the stadium too.
Originally Posted by Vulajin View Post


I venture that this would be an overall negative change, because it would essentially force every build to spec 5 points into Subtlety, instead of just combat dagger builds. It's that reliance on Subtlety that needs to be broken, so combat daggers can get the same 20/41 or variant that everyone else gets.
It would not force every build to spec it, there is no need for Combat to do so.
The effect of 5% haste would not be greater than 5/5 Lethality (which is what would be dropped).
It would remove the need for any combat build to spec Sub at all, Sub Rogues would get a meaningful boost however.

Edit: Just to make this perfectly clear. It is obvious that both the mechanics of the Sword Spec Combat Build and itemisation give Combat Sword a clear advantage over any other Rogue build both in terms of DPS and in terms of playability. I am in total agreement with you on this.
My point about itemisation as far as Arena gear is concerned is that it has dramatically widened the gap and done it much earlier. Without this then things would not be as bad as they are now.

As far as the OP is concerned:
1- both theory and practice show that in order to maximise your DPS you should start with a Combat Swords build and equip a Rogue thus specced accordingly.
2- It is advisable to use Arena PvP as a way of improving your weapons to at least SSC/TK:TE standard or better.

Last edited by Krollin : 10/19/07 at 9:22 AM.
#153SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3sp00n
Originally Posted by sp00n View Post
Damage calculation for special attacks

Backstab
  • with Opportunity:
    ( (DAMAGE+(AP/14*1.7)) * 1.5 + 255 ) * 1.2
  • with Opportunity & Surprise Attacks:
    ( (DAMAGE+(AP/14*1.7)) * 1.5 + 255 ) * 1.2 * 1.1

Sinister Strike
  • with Aggression & Surprise Attacks:
    ( (DAMAGE+(AP/14*2.4)) + 98 ) * 1.06 * 1.1
Originally Posted by Dontmindme View Post
Actually, I have done testing that shows that Opportunity and Surprise Attacks are additive. Spec both without Murder. Go out to the Dwarf start area. Kick some level 1 Young Ragged Wolves to verify 0 armor gives 110/220 on a crit. Now backstab them multiple times with a starter dagger. Guess what?
The damage is consistant with (DAMAGE+(AP/14*1.7)) * 1.5 + 255 ) * 1.3
and not with
(DAMAGE+(AP/14*1.7)) * 1.5 + 255 ) * 1.2 * 1.1

Even if you want to believe the armor is above 0 but still rounds to 110, the kick test proves the armor is not high enough to give damage reduction consistant with Opportunity and Surprise Attacks being multiplicative.

I suspect the same of Aggression and Surprise Attacks but have not tested this.
I just tested this on the PTR and you're right. Surprise Attacks stacks additive for both Opportunity and Aggression. I'm going to update my formulas.

By the way, the wolves in this starting area have 20 armor (level 1) resp. 21 armor (level 2) (checked with a hunter). Sometimes this *does* reduce your damage range, although only by 1 (and only if your minimum damage is only slightly above a natural number, so that this 0.189% damage reduction bring it down to a smaller natural number).

The formulas are:

Backstab with Opportunity
( (DAMAGE+(AP/14*1.7)) * 1.5 + 255 ) * 1.2

Backstab without Opportunity, but with Surprise Attacks
( (DAMAGE+(AP/14*1.7)) * 1.5 + 255 ) * (1 + 0.1)

With Opportunity and Surprise Attacks
( (DAMAGE+(AP/14*1.7)) * 1.5 + 255 ) * (1.2 + 0.1)


Sinister Strike with Aggression
( (DAMAGE+(AP/14*2.4)) + 98 ) * 1.06

Sinister Strike without Aggression, but with Surprise Attacks
( (DAMAGE+(AP/14*2.4)) + 98 ) * (1 + 0.1)

Sinister Strike with Aggression and Surprise Attacks
( (DAMAGE+(AP/14*2.4)) + 98 ) * (1.06 + 0.1)
#154SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
 Vulajin
Originally Posted by Krollin View Post
Edit: Just to make this perfectly clear. It is obvious that both the mechanics of the Sword Spec Combat Build and itemisation give Combat Sword a clear advantage over any other Rogue build both in terms of DPS and in terms of playability. I am in total agreement with you on this.
My point about itemisation as far as Arena gear is concerned is that it has dramatically widened the gap and done it much earlier. Without this then things would not be as bad as they are now.
I don't think this is a productive discussion anymore, but I'd just like to conclude by reiterating that I am not at all in agreement with your point about itemization. Comparing any pair of daggers at a given itemization level against any pair of swords, the swords will always come out on top by a significant margin. Neither has arena gear widened the gap, as you can carry out the same comparison with PvE gear and obtain the same results. The two changes that really did it were making offhand sword spec procs cause main hand swings, and introducing a large amount of hit gear (enabling rogues to approach and even reach the cap) in BC.

(edit) I just noticed how contradictory this post of mine is. What I wanted to get at was that it's not weapon itemization itself responsible for the issue, as I believe you are arguing.

Last edited by Vulajin : 10/19/07 at 1:28 PM.
#155SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Shaker
Originally Posted by Krollin View Post
@Shaker with respect to Sword Spec up to 2.1. The bug only caused the damage caused by OH procs to reset the MH swing, this was not a reduction of DPS by half, it was a reduction of DPS from those OH procs by half, that was not major and not a reason to stay away from sword spec.
I think everyone else handled all the other parts of your post, but you're forgetting mainhand special attacks that trigger sword spec as well. Your opinion that it was not a major difference is different than mine, but I'm not really willing to go into it, since I think this thread has enough of non-math discussion on completely outdated topics (I am not simply blaming you for that - my posts aren't exactly numbers-laden either).

As for the attitude of "Well that's just theorycraft", I will say that I think you're really posting in the wrong thread if every disagreement is going to come down to that - that's why we're here. Several people have made calculations in "non-ideal" conditions, but there isn't much call for spreadsheets that deal with "optimum gear selections for the Gruul Encounter" - we have to choose something to generally agree with, and while we ALL realize that the tank & spank fights are limited in BC - the principles used in analyzing those fights are useful when engaged in any fight.
#156SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 astearns
Originally Posted by Vulajin View Post
Stat weighting depends heavily on the stats a character already possesses. The following general guidelines are based roughly on a projected tier 4 level of gear (Kara/Gruul/Mag/world bosses). These guidelines work by comparing the amount of DPS provided by any one stat to the amount of DPS provided by a point of Attack Power:

1 Strength = 1 AP (1.1 with Kings)
1 Agility = 2 AP (2.2 with Kings)
1 Crit Rating = 1.6 AP
1 Hit Rating = 2.3 AP
4 Armor Penetration = 1 AP
1 Haste Rating = 2.3 AP
I've found in the gear spreadsheet that the weighting of hit rating versus agility is extremely dependent on just one item. With my T4-5 gear but no Dragonspine Trophy hit rating is worth just slightly less than agility (2.09 AP for hit rating versus 2.11 AP for agility). Add in the DST and the relative worth flips (2.18 AP for hit rating versus 2.13 for agility). I wear two proc trinkets (WSC and RPV) and have combat potency, but without the DST the sheet never weighs hit rating over agility.

When I discuss the value of hit rating with my guild rogues I always put a caveat on pushing hit rating and the hit cap - it's much more important if you have the DST. If not, then either hit rating or agility are good choices.
#157SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Vulajin
Originally Posted by astearns View Post
I've found in the gear spreadsheet that the weighting of hit rating versus agility is extremely dependent on just one item. With my T4-5 gear but no Dragonspine Trophy hit rating is worth just slightly less than agility (2.09 AP for hit rating versus 2.11 AP for agility). Add in the DST and the relative worth flips (2.18 AP for hit rating versus 2.13 for agility). I wear two proc trinkets (WSC and RPV) and have combat potency, but without the DST the sheet never weighs hit rating over agility.

When I discuss the value of hit rating with my guild rogues I always put a caveat on pushing hit rating and the hit cap - it's much more important if you have the DST. If not, then either hit rating or agility are good choices.
A fair point. I'll add such a caveat to the first post.

For anyone reading who has maces and an RED, I'm looking (and I'm sure many other people are as well) for a kind soul to get on the PTR and test out the new mace spec to see how it functions with RED.
#158SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Aldriana
To make the point a bit more fundamental: the more powerful procs you have, the more hit is worth. Dragonspine, being a powerful proc, tends to push up the value; however, it's not the only thing. Combat Potency, Mongoose/Executioner, Windfury, etc. all increase the value of hit by nontrivial amounts. The more of these you have, the more hit is worth.
#159SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Mideci
"Hey, I am not disputing that Swords is better than Daggers.
I see the results in reality, where the metal meets the meat, to be different. If I were doing less dmg with my gear (Malchazeen, Heroic Dagger) than a Vindicator/Latros equipped Rogue I would be tearing my hair out."

Maybe EJ should ban these kinds of statements? As is often the guy, a guy is generalizing from his own personal experience in a theorycrafting thread. He's wrong. The differences he is seeing are based on his skill vs. someone else. There are thousands of post in the other threads backing up the actual math that proves the superiority of swords over daggers. And he says but in the real world daggers are better.

The "reality" of which he speaks is solely himself vs. someone else he knows (or a couple of people, however many rogues he raids with). It serves as some kind of counter-illumination to have these "but I know my personal setup is better" posts when the opposite has been proved.

The forum bans signing of posts, perhaps it's time for no more I'm-sure-it's-true-even-though-it-isn't posts? Anyway, not my forums, but just a thought.
#160SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Nathe
Originally Posted by Anath View Post
I have noticed that a great many Rogues skip Master Poisoner in their Mutilate builds. Does anyone know why? I noticed in WWS logs that Rogues at the hit cap were seeing poison resists, so I assume it's governed by Nature Resistance. Are these resists level-inherent resistances that can't be ignored or would Master Poisoner take them off the table?
Well because poisons are considered Nature (not Physical) damage, it's fair to assume that they fall victim to the same level-based resistance rules as spells. 2 points in Master Poisoner decreases the 17% resist rate of a level 73 mob to 7%.

I think most people skip it because there are 41 better talent points in the Assassination tree if you plan to use Mutilate. Poisons contribute nicely to your damage, but they're not the hinge of your performance. A resist or two is nothing to nothing to quibble about when avoiding them would cost you valuable points like Quick Recovery, Fleet Footed, or something in your 20-talent support tree.
#161SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Analogkid
Originally Posted by roq View Post
Run 1s/3r. It works fine as long as you have the 2 piece t4.

Vulajin, as for your combat Daggers section about SnD. It looks fine. I don't see anything wrong with it. Currently i am a huge supporter of the 1s/3r cycle as you are suggesting, and used to run 3s/5s/5r before i had the set bonus.

I have to pipe in on this one.

You will be missing so many "% chance" talent procs (energy, etc.) going with this 1s/3r rotation.

As I recall hearing someone say long ago, "It's better to know what you aren't getting than what you are." If that's not an exact quote, I reserve all rights to copyright it.
#162SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Shaker
Originally Posted by Analogkid View Post
I have to pipe in on this one.

You will be missing so many "% chance" talent procs (energy, etc.) going with this 1s/3r rotation.
What are you talking about? 1s/3r keeps 100% SnD uptime - I'm assuming (and please correct me if I'm wrong) that you're stating that 1s/3r is dropping SnD.
#163SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Nathe
Relentless Strikes maybe?
#164SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Idk
Originally Posted by Analogkid View Post
I have to pipe in on this one.

You will be missing so many "% chance" talent procs (energy, etc.) going with this 1s/3r rotation.

As I recall hearing someone say long ago, "It's better to know what you aren't getting than what you are." If that's not an exact quote, I reserve all rights to copyright it.
I don't think this is entirely correct. Let's look at those talents individually.

ruthlessness: 60% chance to get another combo point with a finisher. The value of this talent degrades linearally with the number of combo points that you build. If you always do 1 cp finishers, than each combo point is always worth an extra 0.6 combo points. if you always do 5 cp finishers, than each combo point is always worth an extra 0.12 combo points. So the fewer combo points you build before using a finisher, the greater effect you get from ruthlessness.

relentless strikes: 20% chance per combo point to regain 25 energy when landing a finisher. This scales linearly with the number of combo points that you acquire before using a finisher. 1 cp is 20%, 5 cp is 100%. So it doesn't matter if you do 1 cp finishers, 3 cp finishers, or 5 cp finishers.. you'll get the same amount of bonus energy per cp.

Let's take an example of 20 combo points:

Scenario 1: 20 combo points built, finisher used every 5 cp, so 4 finishers. Ruthlessness will give you an extra 2.4 combo points and relentless strikes will give you 4 guaranteed procs for 100 energy.

Scenario 2: 20 combo points built, finisher used every 2 cp, so 10 finishers. Ruthlessness will give you an extra 6 combo points and relentless strikes will have 10 chances at 40% each of returning 25 energy... 10 * .4 * 25 = 100 energy.

It's correct to say that the energy gains from relentless strikes are more _consistent_ with 5 cp than with less than 5 cp.. but the energy gained over the course of the fight per combo point is unchanged.

A 1s/3r rotation gains more from ruthlessness and the same from relentless strikes as compared to 1s/5r... 1s/5r is simply more consistent with regard to the energy return from relentless strikes.
#165SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3tymoney321
Rogue Combat talent Aggression now applies its 2/4/6% bonus to Backstab. This is in addition to the previous effects of 2/4/6% increased damage on Sinister Strike and Eviscerate.



- Shadowstep reduced to 30 second cooldown. 8-25 yd range. Changed from 20 yard. (previously no min range) Also adds +20% damage to any special on next attack.

- Hemorrhage debuffed increased from 10 to 36. Now lasts 10 charges or 15 seconds.


Goodbye, nerves of steel and 2/2 endurance, hello Aggression. This is a nice step toward a needed buff for combat daggers and I'm GLAD it didn't involve nerfing swords.

Subtley is also becomming more viable for pve and pvp purposes
#166SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Greymist1
Originally Posted by Krollin View Post
The figure of 5% more DPS for Swords over Daggers hasn't been substantiated.
Any of these comparisons are only meangingful in ideal circumstances and that means never take the results literally.
Let me tell you my 'realcraft' experiences, then.

On my old server, in my old guild, we ran with 2 rogues for 25 man raids. Both of us started out as daggers. Our gear was very close. So was our position on the meters; we took the top 2 slots on most fights and it was a tossup which one of us took #1 on any particular day.

When Arena Season 2 came around, we decided to test swords vs. daggers by having me stay daggers and my guildmate go swords, in part because he was in a better arena team situation and could buy a set of S2 swords right away.

Result: I started losing the damage meter battles by a wide margin. Even after I completed my S2 dagger set (bringing our gear back to near parity) it still wasn't close. The only times I ever beat him were on low-armor bosses during the short period of time when I had Warp-Spring Coil and he didn't.

I'm on a different server now, so I can no longer compare to him, but I did recently get a Talon of Azshara and a S2 OH to replace my S2 MH/OH daggers. The Rogue DPS Spreadsheet predicted about 150 raidbuffed DPS gain from doing this without any other changes to my gear. I can report that it doesn't seem to be horribly wrong in practice; I'm not actually getting quite that much but the set of buffs I have enabled in the spreadsheet is probably a bit optimistic. It's certainly worth at least 100 DPS, which is substantially more than 5% gain for me.

So yes, sword spec really is that good.

Stupidly enough it is the Arena OH weapons which bring Swords up, the only other OH sword available before Mount Hyjal, Latros, hardly compares.

I suspect Blizzard were balancing things via itemisation but screwed up royally with Arena PvP items. In more ways than one as well.
Both specializations benefit a great deal from Arena items. The S2 OH dagger is vastly superior to anything you can get before Hyjal, and there's nothing to compete with the S2 MH dagger until Vashj.

I think you may be overestimating the impact of the availability of the Arena OH on swords, too. Consider a thought experiment: All else equal, what is the DPS due to weapon specialization for sword and dagger when changing between a 1 DPS OH and a 1000 DPS OH? Sword spec's contribution stays constant, because SS procs from your OH result in MH swings; changing OH DPS doesn't change sword spec DPS at all. The DPS from dagger spec, on the other hand, changes considerably since the 5% crit scales the DPS of the OH weapon.

So the point of my thought experiment is that sword spec is quite insensitive to OH weapon DPS. If you have to use a Latro's instead of a S2 OH, you only lose out on the raw autoattack OH DPS -- about 26 * 0.75, modified by crit etc. Latro's happens to have excellent DPS stats, probably better overall than the DPS stats on the S2 OH sword. It's also 0.1 faster than the Arena OH, and that means even more for sword spec than it would for dagger spec. Thus, Latro's is surprisingly competitive with the Arena S2 OH. Not as good, but not a disaster either.

Originally Posted by Krollin View Post
Hey, I am not disputing that Swords is better than Daggers.
I see the results in reality, where the metal meets the meat, to be different. If I were doing less dmg with my gear (Malchazeen, Heroic Dagger) than a Vindicator/Latros equipped Rogue I would be tearing my hair out.
If I were not doing significantly more dmg I would be looking for what I was doing wrong.
The spreadsheet, any spreadsheet, gives approximate results under ideal conditions.
While it is a guide it is not a reflection of what happens in practice.
As you said about my ideal group, it is not what happens in practice.

I would be horrified if the state of play in the game was actually that shown by the spreadsheet. I don't think it is either, mainly because my own experience tells me that it isn't.
I'm afraid, then, that you are going to have to be horrified. If you're beating a Vindicator/Latro's rogue, it's because that rogue isn't up to your standard in some regard (gearing choices, talent choices, player skill). Like I said above, I've seen two of the best real world scenarios to verify what the theorycraft says: both comparison between two closely matched rogues and personal experience switching from daggers to swords.

I think nobody would disagree that the Rogue DPS spreadsheet can't predict exact outcomes. (At one time pre-TBC it came close, but it really ought to be a Monte Carlo simulator these days to accurately model the interactions between haste procs, combat potency, cycles, etc. The game's too complicated now to model in a straightforward way with a spreadsheet.) But you seem to want to have it both ways: anything that's useful as a guide obviously does reflect what happens in practice to some extent, no?

Personally, I've had great success using it as a relative ranking tool. That is, if you set up your gear, talents, race, and buffs, save the DPS you get from that setup, then start playing with the options available to you, it's quite good at predicting whether your dps will go up or down, and even at predicting the relative value of different gear upgrade options. Do I rely on it as much to tell me whether spec A is better than spec B? No, but it's at least close, and when it predicts a huge difference between one spec and another, I'd take it seriously if I were you. People have done a lot of work on it to make it reflect reality as closely as possible.
#167SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Aldriana
Originally Posted by Greymist1 View Post
I think nobody would disagree that the Rogue DPS spreadsheet can't predict exact outcomes. (At one time pre-TBC it came close, but it really ought to be a Monte Carlo simulator these days to accurately model the interactions between haste procs, combat potency, cycles, etc. The game's too complicated now to model in a straightforward way with a spreadsheet.) But you seem to want to have it both ways: anything that's useful as a guide obviously does reflect what happens in practice to some extent, no?
I'd dispute this to some extent; while it's certainly harder to model things in a spreadsheet than it was before, it's certainly still possible; for everything but deep-Assassination builds, I'm confident that the Rogue Gear Spreadsheet is as accurate as any Monte Carlo method. And even high-end Assassination *could* be modeled with it - I just haven't bothered, since it is fairly challenging and not really that worthwhile.
#168SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Vulajin
Originally Posted by Idk View Post
relentless strikes: 20% chance per combo point to regain 25 energy when landing a finisher. This scales linearly with the number of combo points that you acquire before using a finisher. 1 cp is 20%, 5 cp is 100%. So it doesn't matter if you do 1 cp finishers, 3 cp finishers, or 5 cp finishers.. you'll get the same amount of bonus energy per cp.

...

A 1s/3r rotation gains more from ruthlessness and the same from relentless strikes as compared to 1s/5r... 1s/5r is simply more consistent with regard to the energy return from relentless strikes.
Here's the thing, though. Over a given period of time, you generate a certain amount of energy from base energy regeneration, and you also generate a certain amount from Combat Potency if applicable. Both of these effects, we will assume to be independent of cycles (as they largely are).

Now let's say you gain 5 energy back on every single combo point generator you perform (let's use Sinister Strike as an example). Let's assume only the base energy regeneration of 10/s (if there were Combat Potency, it would apply equally to both cycles):

Running 1s/5r
Sinister Strikes used: 6
Finishers used: 2
Total energy spent per cycle: 40 * 6 + 25 * 2 = 290
Total energy back from Relentless Strikes: 6 * 5 = 30
Net energy spent: 260
Sinister Strike energy spent: 240
% energy spent on Sinister Strike: 92.31%
Cycle duration: 260 / 10 = 26s
Relentless Strikes energy/s: 30 / 26 = 1.15

Running 5s/5r
Sinister Strikes used: 10
Finishers used: 2
Total energy spent per cycle: 40 * 10 + 25 * 2 = 450
Total energy back from Relentless Strikes: 10 * 5 = 50
Net energy spent: 400
Sinister Strike energy spent: 400
% energy spent on Sinister Strike: 100%
Cycle duration: 400 / 10 = 40s
Relentless Strikes energy/s: 1.25

So not only does the cycle with higher-CP finishers use more of its energy, on average, on Sinister Strikes (thereby increasing Sinister Strike DPS), it also obtains higher energy output per time from Relentless Strikes. The effect, thus, does depend quite heavily on the cycle you run.
#169SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Spoony
This topic has helped out my rogue nicely, thanks.

One question though - I plan on making a mace/hemo build given the changes to 2.3. Does the hemo calculation treat your main hand weapon as .3 quicker with SnD on? Or is it the static 2.6-2.8 given with the base weapon speed?
#170SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Vulajin
Originally Posted by Spoony View Post
This topic has helped out my rogue nicely, thanks.

One question though - I plan on making a mace/hemo build given the changes to 2.3. Does the hemo calculation treat your main hand weapon as .3 quicker with SnD on? Or is it the static 2.6-2.8 given with the base weapon speed?
It's based on your tooltip weapon speed.
#171SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Krollin
Originally Posted by Greymist1 View Post
I'm afraid, then, that you are going to have to be horrified. If you're beating a Vindicator/Latro's rogue, it's because that rogue isn't up to your standard in some regard (gearing choices, talent choices, player skill). Like I said above, I've seen two of the best real world scenarios to verify what the theorycraft says: both comparison between two closely matched rogues and personal experience switching from daggers to swords.
I spent some time over the weekend taking a closer look at what the Spreadsheet is telling me and what an event driven model I have been knocking together is telling me as well.

I must admit I have completely underestimated Sword Spec. By rights a Vindicator/Latros rogue shouldn't just be close behind me I in fact should be trailing them on dmg.

This is good news for me, it shows that at least 3 rogues in the world are worse than I am

Reading this and other threads about DPS cycles:
I am specced Combat Daggers with 3/3 Ruthlessness and Relentless Strikes.

Two questions then.

I am running 1s/3r comfortably but is this the best cycle to be going for in Raids?
The other option is 1s/3s/5r.

Quite often this can stretch to a 1s/4r but that often means a short gap in SnD which many say is anathema. Is it wise to stretch a combo that far? (the gaps are somewhere in the region of 2 seconds)?
Edit: My second question arises out of the fact that Aldrianna's spreadsheet is saying my Approximate Cycle is 1s/3.7r

Last edited by Krollin : 10/22/07 at 8:16 AM. Reason: Reason why I am asking + show I have actually used a recognised tool and am not just trolling for an answer
#172SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Mush
mutilate off hand weapon = Vengeful Gladiator's Mutilator - Items - World of Warcraft
#173SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Aldriana
Originally Posted by Krollin View Post
I am running 1s/3r comfortably but is this the best cycle to be going for in Raids?
The other option is 1s/3s/5r.

Quite often this can stretch to a 1s/4r but that often means a short gap in SnD which many say is anathema. Is it wise to stretch a combo that far? (the gaps are somewhere in the region of 2 seconds)?
Edit: My second question arises out of the fact that Aldrianna's spreadsheet is saying my Approximate Cycle is 1s/3.7r
You do not want to let SnD drop, ever. Hence, the ideal solution is to watch your SnD uptime carefully and do 1s4r when you can and 1s3r if you can tell that that will give you an SnD gap. If you are having trouble with that, it is better to just do 1s3r than to have SnD gaps.
#174SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Roquefire
Haste-based effects post 2.2

First up thanks Vulajin for this thread, I've found it extremely useful in helping to plan future upgrades/compare pieces of gear =)

I apologise if this has come up elsewhere but I've been reading conflicting views on the value of different trinkets for Rogues after the haste nerf in 2.2

Pre-2.2 DST was the best by a fair margin but after the changes in calculating haste rating --> haste % I've noticed some rogues preferring to go for the combination of Warp-Spring Coil and Tsunami Talisman (and later Madness of the Betrayer) as opposed to using Dragonspine in one of those slots, are there any post 2.2 calculations on this to back up one side or the other? Also what would be the better option between Warp-Spring Coil and Tsunami Talisman assuming neither would put me above the hit cap?

Sorry if I've posted in the wrong format, first time posting on EJ ^_^
#175SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Aldriana
According to the Rogue Gear Spreadsheet, DST is still the best trinket. What's number 2 depends on your spec and gear to some extent, but generally the answer is either Ashtongue Talisman of Lethality, Madness of the Betrayer, or Warp Spring Coil. Tsunami Talisman, while certainly better than the pre-raid trinkets, is on the whole inferior to these 4.
#176SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Roquefire
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
According to the Rogue Gear Spreadsheet, DST is still the best trinket. What's number 2 depends on your spec and gear to some extent, but generally the answer is either Ashtongue Talisman of Lethality, Madness of the Betrayer, or Warp Spring Coil. Tsunami Talisman, while certainly better than the pre-raid trinkets, is on the whole inferior to these 4.
Cheers for clearing that up for me =), hope to replace the Abacus with a Warp-Spring Coil soon if Void Reaver would hurry up and drop another one after close to 3 months+ of downing him every week ><.
#177SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Grunge
I wonder, has anyone researched or modeled effects of crit over hit for Mutilate builds?
Seeing how Vashj has been very uncooperative in regards of the belt I was starting to consider Don Alejandro's over my current Belt of Deep Shadows.
Common sense tells me that Deep Shadows is superior (dps wise), but I began wondering if crit might be better for Mutilate due to it's "2" attack nature, or where the cut-off point would be?

From what I understand Mutilate is a two-roll (or is it rather one+two roll system?)
First to check if the attack lands and two "secondary" rolls to check if the attacks are either crits or hits.

Assuming that the only "procs" are Mongoose (WSC+Lethality in my case. DST or MoB would alter the results somewhat I assume) would mean that hit isn't that valued.
So I'm throwing it out here as a idea.



As for the overall mutilate aspect. I'd have to disagree. The suggested spec assumes the usage of dual DP that is highly unlikely as WF is much better (at least with a warrior in the group). Even in case of GoA I would use IP over dual deadly.
I personally use: this build.
Even without Imp. Poisons I rarely find DP falling off and Fleet Footed allows Dexterity or Surefooted enchant.
As I mentioned above, for mutilate hit isn't as important so I prefer Crimson Spinels over Pyrestone/Lionseye where possible.
#178SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3sp00n
Originally Posted by Grunge View Post
From what I understand Mutilate is a two-roll (or is it rather one+two roll system?)
First to check if the attack lands and two "secondary" rolls to check if the attacks are either crits or hits.
As far as my understanding goes, first it is determined wether Mutilate hits at all, so 1 roll for dodge, parry (in dead zone or lag situations) and miss. This roll counts for both main hand and off hand. You won't see any missed main hand Mutilate but a landed off hand Mutilate (however, you will see a main hand mutilate hit and no off hand Mutilate at all if the target is already dead after the main hand hit).
Then for each hand there is another roll to determine wether it's a hit or a crit.
#179SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Krollin
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
You do not want to let SnD drop, ever. Hence, the ideal solution is to watch your SnD uptime carefully and do 1s4r when you can and 1s3r if you can tell that that will give you an SnD gap. If you are having trouble with that, it is better to just do 1s3r than to have SnD gaps.
This is exactly what I am doing right now but being a little slack about SnD gaps that do creep in. Erring on the side of caution is what I will do from now on.

I have an additional question about the 4 set T4 bonus, 15% chance of being awarded a combo point when a Finisher is used.

I need to furnish proof about this with a combat log ofc but I got the impression I was sometimes getting 2 CPs awarded when using a finisher, 1 from Ruthlessness and 1 from somewhere else (presumably T4). I have no other talents or items which could account for this.

Now I assumed, rightly or wrongly, that the T4 bonus would stack with Ruthlessness but if I wasn't suffering hallucinations then this is not the case.
Is this in fact how it works, the 4 set T4 bonus I mean?

Last edited by Krollin : 10/23/07 at 5:34 AM.
#180SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3exog
Well say you get airbursted on archimonde with 4cp, usually i then ss-->rup. Do you mean a 4pt snd there would be better?
#181SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Raynforce
Originally posted by Vulajin
Zul'Aman itself provides the following items: [Grimgrin Faceguard] is roughly on par with [Helm of the Claw] due to the lack of a meta gem socket.
I would just like to hear more opinions on this. The last I checked on shadowpanther.net, this item is ranked pretty high as a good PVE helm, probably comparable or better then X-11 engineering crafted helm or Deathmantle helm. I have access to Epic gems and Im planning to socket this with 2 Glinting Pyrestones and 1 Rigid Lionseye. Im currently using the X-11 engineering crafted goggles with RED. Am I making a good choice?

Last edited by Raynforce : 10/23/07 at 6:29 AM.
#182SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Drunk
Well, to my calculations they are pretty close... if you value the +3% increased critical strike damage for 26 ApEP then they are identical. Probably shadowpanther undervalues the meta socket
#183SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Vulajin
Originally Posted by Krollin View Post
Now I assumed, rightly or wrongly, that the T4 bonus would stack with Ruthlessness but if I wasn't suffering hallucinations then this is not the case.
Is this in fact how it works, the 4 set T4 bonus I mean?
Always be careful with the word "stacking," it can mean a lot of different things in a lot of different contexts. In the case of T4 4pc, it has its own chance to proc, independent of Ruthlessness, which means that you can in fact end up with 2 CP from a finisher. The chance of getting 2 CP is equal to 60% * 15% = 9%. The chance of getting 1 CP is equal to 60% * 85% + 40% * 15% = 57%. The chance of getting 0 CP is equal to 40% * 85% = 34%.

If you average out the number of CP gained on a finisher when you have both Ruthlessness and T4 4pc, it comes out to 0.75.

Originally Posted by Raynforce View Post
I would just like to hear more opinions on this. The last I checked on shadowpanther.net, this item is ranked pretty high as a good PVE helm, probably comparable or better then X-11 engineering crafted helm or Deathmantle helm. I have access to Epic gems and Im planning to socket this with 2 Glinting Pyrestones and 1 Rigid Lionseye. Im currently using the X-11 engineering crafted goggles with RED. Am I making a good choice?
Well, using the weighting system given in the first post and assuming Hyjal gems, Grimgin is worth 40 * 2.2 + 24 * 2.3 + 82 + 23 * 3 = 294.2 (+8 if you socket for the bonus). Netherblade Facemask is worth 28 * 2.2 + 14 * 2.3 + 78 + 23 = 194.8 (+8.8 if you socket for the bonus). So the question is how high you rate Relentless Earthstorm Diamond. Aldriana's sheet puts it at roughly 93.66 AP, meaning that Netherblade is right on par with Grimgrin. This would make Grimgrin inferior to Deathblow and Deathmantle.

Thanks for checking my facts. Next time I update the first post, I'll fix that.
#184SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Raynforce
Originally posted by Vulajin
Well, using the weighting system given in the first post and assuming Hyjal gems, Grimgin is worth 40 * 2.2 + 24 * 2.3 + 82 + 23 * 3 = 294.2 (+8 if you socket for the bonus). Netherblade Facemask is worth 28 * 2.2 + 14 * 2.3 + 78 + 23 = 194.8 (+8.8 if you socket for the bonus). So the question is how high you rate Relentless Earthstorm Diamond. Aldriana's sheet puts it at roughly 93.66 AP, meaning that Netherblade is right on par with Grimgrin. This would make Grimgrin inferior to Deathblow and Deathmantle.

I am in a dilemma on this decision because although RED is hard to give up on, the fact that I have to socket 2 blue gems to fulfill its requirement makes me feel as though it cancels out its advantage. Losing 10 hit for 16 stam hurts.
#185SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Vulajin
Originally Posted by Raynforce View Post
I am in a dilemma on this decision because although RED is hard to give up on, the fact that I have to socket 2 blue gems to fulfill its requirement makes me feel as though it cancels out its advantage. Losing 10 hit for 16 stam hurts.
Again, using Aldriana's weighting, you're looking at a meta gem that grants over 90 AP, versus losing 10 hit (which would be about 23 AP worth). RED is huge, make no mistake. Additionally, you can use your two blue gems to activate socket bonuses that you wouldn't otherwise have gotten, lessening the impact of the 10 hit loss.
#186SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Mideci
For what it's worth, Shadowpanther uses a fairly crude raiding system that is a fine "first pass" but not a mathematically correct dps tool. The Rogue Gear and Rogue DPS Spreadsheets take out the opinion quotient and actually measure the worth of a meta-socketed RED or hit or whatnot. They thus gain a level of accuracy the shadowpanther tables don't have.
#187SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Raynforce
Thanks for the valuable input guys. Really appreciate it!!
#188SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3vigorouss
A spec i've never seen mentioned before but I tried out tonight on gruuls was 30/31 seal fate/adrenaline rush. I used this spec. My dps was lower than combat swords, but that was with 5 16ap gems a 20ap gem and a 8 hit gem, if those were all changed to crit gems or more of a dagger 30/31 build was used... I don't think it'd be that bad of a build.
#189SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3ekval
Originally Posted by vigorouss View Post
A spec i've never seen mentioned before but I tried out tonight on gruuls was 30/31 seal fate/adrenaline rush. I used this spec. My dps was lower than combat swords, but that was with 5 16ap gems a 20ap gem and a 8 hit gem, if those were all changed to crit gems or more of a dagger 30/31 build was used... I don't think it'd be that bad of a build.
Dont think Sealfate can keep up with Combat Potency toe to toe. Cold blood aint that much substained damage either. QR is nice and all but I would still go full combat instead.
#190SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
tatzuki
Vulajin,

I would like to understand a little be more on the mechanics of expertise. I've been told that dpsing from behind a raid boss, that you can get dodged and thus the significance of this stat. But, I can't really recall if I have in fact seen a dodge from dpsing behind a target, so I'd like to verify the validity of that statement. Given, that if you cannot be dodged from behind the target this would infer that you are at 0% dodge, and x% miss depending only on your hit rating. Would that make expertise be more meaningful only in situations where you may be moving all around your target and dpsing from the front a good amount of the time? While I'm sure there is already some preliminary number crunching going on the ptr regarding this change, is there an AP equivalency for it at this point? How can I quantify using hit vs. expertise when stat weighing gear in this case? Might I wear a set of gear that includes some expertise up to the cap for a fight that moves around alot and only gear that favors hit when doing simple tank and spank?

Also, in regards to armor reduction or penatration, implicitly, you cannot reduce a targets armor mitigation below 0%, so is there a magic number on how much you should keep in mind if you were to use this stat to your advantage?

Thank you in advance, and I appologize if these questions sound ignorant.

Last edited by tatzuki : 10/24/07 at 7:02 AM.
#191SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3exog
Both white and yellow attacks can be dodged by bosses when you attack from behind.
There are no parries or blocks when attacking from behind.
Attacks from the front can be parried, this resets boss swingtimer increasing dps on tank.

I'm sure you have also experienced doing a rupture on a boss yet you still have all your combopoints. Then you do 1-2 more ss before noticing it, fucking up the cycle and wasting cps and so on... Dodge of DOOM!

Armorlevels varies, so theres not ONE magical number of armorpenetration that acts as a CAP. Believe theres a thread on boss armorvalues, there you can subtract your common armordebuffs on a target, then subtract whatever armorpenetration you have on your gear and youll see if you go below 0.
#192SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3saedo
Originally Posted by exog View Post
Both white and yellow attacks can be dodged by bosses when you attack
I'm sure you have also experienced doing a rupture on a boss yet you still have all your combopoints. Then you do 1-2 more ss before noticing it, fucking up the cycle and wasting cps and so on... Dodge of DOOM!
Combat rogues shouldn't be worried about the rupture being dodged. Surprise Attacks!
#193SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Ghli
1 Strength = 1 AP (1.1 with Kings)
1 Agility = 2 AP (2.2 with Kings)
1 Crit Rating = 1.6 AP
1 Hit Rating = 2.3 AP
4 Armor Penetration = 1 AP
1 Haste Rating = 2.3 AP
Gem Socket = 18 AP (unless you know exactly what you'll put in it) / 23 AP (if you have access to Hyjal/BT gems)
Looking at this, and after spending a decent amount of time using the above formulas, I've grown to question them. I know a lot of the AtkEP formulas and AEP formulas vary, but for these, is your "1 Hit Rating = 2.3 AP" factor in Combat Potency? Also, is "1 Crit Rating = 1.6 AP" derived from using RED?


Few Questions for the crowd:
I've grown very accustomed to constantly viewing this thread for updates. One thing that you haven't touched on is Poisons. I know that DP is approx 45 DPS when fully applied. I've heard that IP is best for your MH, assuming you do not have a Shaman in your group to give WF. Has anyone really done the math on Sharpening Stones vs IP for MH. I'm sure its been done, but can't seem to locate exact numbers anywhere (I do realize that the SS should vary depending on gear, AP, RED, and other factors, vs IP which will/should be constant).

Last edited by Ghli : 10/24/07 at 6:50 PM.
#194SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Vulajin
Originally Posted by Ghli View Post
Looking at this, and after spending a decent amount of time using the above formulas, I've grown to question them. I know a lot of the AtkEP formulas and AEP formulas vary, but for these, is your "1 Hit Rating = 2.3 AP" factor in Combat Potency? Also, is "1 Crit Rating = 1.6 AP" derived from using RED?
At several times I've been tempted to remove those weightings entirely, as I've found that too much confusion arises from them, and they can vary quite a lot with your spec and gear level. Anyone who would like to comment on whether that would be a good idea is welcome to do so.

To answer the questions you've posed, yes, a standard combat build including Combat Potency was used to derive those weights, as well as a Netherblade Facemask socketed with Relentless Earthstorm Diamond. These conditions would hold for most raiding rogues (at least at or past Kara level).
#195SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3tatzuki
I think that the weightings are very helpful to most raiding rogues b/c your target audience is typically going to be kara geared and spec'd combat. Before reading this post I was stuck on simply obtaining gear that would only help me reach the hit cap, passing on gear that was potentially a huge upgrade to me. After taking advice from this post and using this weighting system, I have found a significant upgrade to my own performance in raids and really appreciate what you have done. As long as ppl understand that these findings are based upon certain assumptions, there really shouldn't be any confusion here. Thanks for your hard work.
#196SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Rerolled
Originally Posted by Vulajin View Post
At several times I've been tempted to remove those weightings entirely, as I've found that too much confusion arises from them, and they can vary quite a lot with your spec and gear level. Anyone who would like to comment on whether that would be a good idea is welcome to do so.

To answer the questions you've posed, yes, a standard combat build including Combat Potency was used to derive those weights, as well as a Netherblade Facemask socketed with Relentless Earthstorm Diamond. These conditions would hold for most raiding rogues (at least at or past Kara level).
I suggest just putting in a note in the original post stating that they were derived from Aldriana's spreadsheet and the spec you used.
#197SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Vulajin
Originally Posted by Rerolled View Post
I suggest just putting in a note in the original post stating that they were derived from Aldriana's spreadsheet and the spec you used.
Originally Posted by Vulajin
Stat weighting depends heavily on the stats a character already possesses. The following general guidelines are based roughly on a projected tier 4 level of gear (Kara/Gruul/Mag/world bosses). These guidelines work by comparing the amount of DPS provided by any one stat to the amount of DPS provided by a point of Attack Power:
Is this sufficient (note: it was already there, but apparently people keep overlooking it, so maybe more is needed)?
#198SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Ghli
I noticed it there, but to me it didn't give enough detail. I assumed it was combat and took factors of a full combat build including combat potency, but I was more interested in the crit number. I have been using 1.55 instead of 1.6 because I don't have a RED (using Maelific), which I believe is correct without RED (trying to backtrack your math).
#199SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
izobelle
I love this thread and the boards here. I was daunted by the prospect of a "DPS Spreadsheet" but it's awesome. With all that out of the way...

I'm wondering if a certain section could be added (if it's needed, however brief) of which builds aim for which stats.

I know we all want high AP, Hit, and Crit to a degree, but Mutilate (for example) would probably put more emphasis on crit than a different stat. I'm combat daggers for a change of pace from maces, and trying to figure out how much a backstab is affected by each stat in general... we have so much crit built into our backstabs through talents; would I be off the mark to aim for AP gear in that sense? My mace (Dragonmaw) procced haste, and I went a little overboard stacking other haste items (SSD, Crystalweave Cape), just because i loved seeing that MH speed pushed further and further down (SnD, Blade Flurry, Mongoose, Dragonmaw, Abacus, etc).

A simple paragraph on good ratios to aim for for vaying builds would be the only thing I can think that's missing from the thread.

<3

Last edited by izobelle : 10/25/07 at 1:57 AM. Reason: spelling
#200SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Dontmindme
I don't believe the weighings actually change as much as many think. People forget that one of the main reasons hit rating is better than crit rating is that it takes 10*82/52 for 1% hit and 14*82/52 for 1% crit. This makes hit seeded 1.4 times better than crit before you take into account Combat Potency or anything else. If you look at the weighings: 1.6 * 1.4 = 2.24 which is very close to the 2.3 factor of hit rating.

So, a mutilate build without Combat Potency may tip the scales a little, but I'd venture to guess the weighing won't change more than say 0.2 one way or another, especially since all rogue builds rely on a significant portion of white damage. The same would apply to haste which even without Combat Potency, has a significant effect on one's white damage (where its giving its greatest benefit).
#201SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Asherz
I especially like the weapon comparisons under the 2.3 Preliminary Info section.

Would it be a good idea to flush this out a bit more such as including comparison information down to weapons like Spiteblade, Blinkstrike or even a top level blue item?
#202SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Vulajin
Originally Posted by Asherz View Post
I especially like the weapon comparisons under the 2.3 Preliminary Info section.

Would it be a good idea to flush this out a bit more such as including comparison information down to weapons like Spiteblade, Blinkstrike or even a top level blue item?
I would rather the section didn't become any more bloated than it already is. Also, as per the information in the Weapon Selection and Talent Builds section, the general strategy is to pick the highest DPS weapon within the "slow" speed range. If a rogue has trouble figuring out what order to rank [Heartless], [Spiteblade], and [Blinkstrike], then this thread's probably not going to be enough help for him.

(edit) Also, my apologies for lacking updates on this lately. I just became a raid leader in my guild this past Sunday, so it's been a tough week. Some more stuff will be incoming over the next couple hours.
#203SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Cloak-SH
It may be worthwhile to note the existence of [Shifting Tanzanite] as it is the best dps blue gem in the game.

Apparently it is a somewhat rare drop from the bosses in heroic SV, they haven't been cooperating with me as of this point.
#204SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Vulajin
Originally Posted by Cloak-SH View Post
It may be worthwhile to note the existence of [Shifting Tanzanite] as it is the best dps blue gem in the game.

Apparently it is a somewhat rare drop from the bosses in heroic SV, they haven't been cooperating with me as of this point.
Thanks for reminding me, it has been linked before in this thread and I just completely forgot about it.
#205SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3nelalas
It might be worth noting in your raid buffs / totems section that shamans can keep both Windfury and Grace of Air (or Tranquil Air) buffs active at the same time. Windfury + Grace of Air will be superior to Grace of Air + Instant Poison. This "twisting" of totems is somewhat mana intensive, but not difficult, and is extremely useful in short DPS or threat-sensitive fights.
#206SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3tymoney321
Grace of Air doesn't effect weapons at all. So You can have Instant/Deadly+Grace if you are not using windfury. Not quite sure what you are talking about in that above post honestly.
#207SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Vulajin
Originally Posted by tymoney321 View Post
Grace of Air doesn't effect weapons at all. So You can have Instant/Deadly+Grace if you are not using windfury. Not quite sure what you are talking about in that above post honestly.
It is possible to "twist" Windfury and Grace of Air totems, dropping both of them in alternation, thus granting your party the effects of both totems. You can have WF+DP and GoA simultaneously by doing that, instead of GoA and IP+DP.
#208SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3nelalas
Originally Posted by tymoney321 View Post
Grace of Air doesn't effect weapons at all. So You can have Instant/Deadly+Grace if you are not using windfury. Not quite sure what you are talking about in that above post honestly.
The Windfury totem buff can be maintained simultaneously with the Grace of Air totem buff by a shaman. Therefore the argument between using Windfury vs. Grace of Air + Instant Poison is not exactly accurate. The argument becomes using Windfury + Grace of Air vs. Instant Poison + Grace of Air, and I'm quite confident that Windfury > Instant Poison. My enhancement shaman regularly keeps both Windfury and Grace of Air active for our melee group.
#209SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Calidar
Originally Posted by nelalas View Post
It might be worth noting in your raid buffs / totems section that shamans can keep both Windfury and Grace of Air (or Tranquil Air) buffs active at the same time. Windfury + Grace of Air will be superior to Grace of Air + Instant Poison. This "twisting" of totems is somewhat mana intensive, but not difficult, and is extremely useful in short DPS or threat-sensitive fights.
It will also be a footnote in the theorycraft history books come 2.3.
#210SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
 izobelle
Blizzard has said they don't really care too much about this so called "totem twisting". I wouldn't read 'they're gonna change it' from that, but maybe they will.

On the other hand, it's such a waste of time and mana on the shamans part that I REALLY think you'd be hard pressed to find a shaman interested in doing this. They need to be continuously throwing totems down, and can't really do anything else effectively at that same time (heal or DPS).

It's only really a proof on concept; hardly applicable in a raid.

Last edited by izobelle : 10/30/07 at 4:49 AM.
#211SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 songster
They've said that it's definitely unintended, that the only reason it's not been removed already is for technical reasons, and that they're actively looking into ways to fix it. No ETA on the fix though.
#212SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Katherine
Sounds for me as if they didnt want to go the sledge hammer way this time, which simply would have been "10 second cooldown on <element> totem after last cast".
#213SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Tornwings
I have a question. So I was thinking of lvling a rogue alt. I know aat the T5+ levle of gear swords become better than daggers. At the lvl 70 blues/kara lvl of gear, are swords still better than daggers, or are daggers better untill you get better gear?
#214SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Varsyn
I think part of the confusion on the derived numbers may be the surface inconsistency in them. Even looking at Aldriana's thread, I am still a little confused as to how exactly these work out. For example:

1agi = 2aep
1cr = 1.6 aep

Trying to reconcile that:

1agi = (AP from agi) + (Crit rating from agi * 1.6)
1agi = (1) + ( (22.077/40) *1.6)
1agi = 1 + .883 = 1.883

It looks like Aldriana assumed vitality, but even then:
1agi = (1.02) + (.883 * 1.02) = 1.92

So, I am left wondering how exactly 1agi is worth 2aep within this system. So maybe a quick summary in the same place as the displayed numbers explaining how the base values were derived might help.
#215SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Aldriana
The conversions assume whatever talents and buffs you have selected in the sheet; thus, if you have Vitality, it assumes Vitality. And, more to the point, if you select Kings, it uses Kings. Since Kings is relatively common in 25-man raids, this is generally a sensible thing to factor in.
#216SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Varsyn
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
The conversions assume whatever talents and buffs you have selected in the sheet; thus, if you have Vitality, it assumes Vitality. And, more to the point, if you select Kings, it uses Kings. Since Kings is relatively common in 25-man raids, this is generally a sensible thing to factor in.
I assumed as much for your sheet (and I do love your sheet, by the way. /end ass kissery). Sorry for the obscurity, I was more directing the post at Vulajin, because I wasn't coming up with something that made those numbers consistent (as he has a separate value for with kings). Rather, I am not seeing exactly what combination of buffs/talents yield those numbers.

Either way, in the context of this thread, if Vulajin is going to keep the rating system there I would suggest that the exact "assumptions" made are included to clear up the confusion surrounding the system.

As of now, the only way I'm seeing agi = 2.0 is with 2/5 sinister calling, and that seems like a poor assumption considering the rest of the assumptions here seem to be biased towards combat rogues.

(with 2/5 sinister calling: 1agi = 1.06 + (22.077/40)*1.6*1.06 = 1.996)

So how about if with the system you choose, Vulajin, you just define the assumed talents and buffs that are active. I think that will go a long way to alleviate the confusion people are finding.

*edit*

For clarity, I am referencing

Stat weighting depends heavily on the stats a character already possesses. The following general guidelines are derived from Aldriana's Rogue Gear Spreadsheet (link in References section) based on a projected pre-SSC/TK level of gear and a combat swords build (though they should apply to most straight combat builds). These guidelines work by comparing the amount of DPS provided by any one stat to the amount of DPS provided by a point of Attack Power:

1 Strength = 1 AP (1.1 with Kings)
1 Agility = 2 AP (2.2 with Kings)
1 Crit Rating = 1.6 AP

And the actual issue is, with a combat swords build, Vitality is the only agi enhancing talent and we still have 1agi = 2AP without kings. This is what is confusing me.

Last edited by Varsyn : 10/26/07 at 12:40 PM. Reason: Clarity
#217SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Darlal
What balance option do you have set? If the sheet isn't set to "Offensive" it will factor in the dodge/armor from agility as well.
#218SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3nelalas
Originally Posted by izobelle View Post
on the other hand, it's such a waste of time and mana on the shamans part that i REALLY think you'd be hard pressed to find a shaman interested in doing this. they need to be continuously throwing totems down, and can't really do anything else effectively at that same time (heal or DPS).

it's only really a proof on concept; hardly applicable in a raid.
This may be true for your raid but our enhancement shaman has no problem twisting totems and contributing a fair portion of DPS. He is not number one but he is not dead last either, and the DPS lost by this one character having to switch air totems every 10 seconds is certainly gained back by the other four melee in his group. We do not do this for every boss.

If totem twisting is going to be disallowed then it is now a mute point; I was only sharing an idea that works well for our raid.
#219SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Dontmindme
The one thing that changes the most with gear is attack power. As your equipment and weapons get better, the value of attack power goes down. This occurs because increasing one's hit or crit or haste gives percent damage increases, while increasing attack power has diminishing returns as your overall attack power goes up.

For example:
Pre-Kara: Most sheets are going to show the 16 AP gem (out of the standard gems) as best.
Mid-Kara: I ran into a brief moment where the 8 Agility came out on top, but nearly neck-to-neck with 16 AP and 8 Hit.
Late-Post-Kara: 8 Hit gems reign supreme.

Why? Well, when your base AP is only about 1500, 16 AP means quite a bit. Agility is half based on AP (half crit) so some of it scales well, some doesn't. Hit rating being purely a % increase to damage, scales best.

As to the swords vs. daggers, right now swords of the same level are superior to equal daggers at all gear levels because of the superiority of sword specialization.
#220SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Tosa
Originally Posted by Dontmindme View Post
For example:
Pre-Kara: Most sheets are going to show the 16 AP gem (out of the standard gems) as best.
Mid-Kara: I ran into a brief moment where the 8 Agility came out on top, but nearly neck-to-neck with 16 AP and 8 Hit.
Late-Post-Kara: 8 Hit gems reign supreme.
Where would you put Dragonspine there? I think that Dragonspine by itself pretty much puts 8 hit on top.
#221SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Arindelest
The one thing that changes the most with gear is attack power. As your equipment and weapons get better, the value of attack power goes down. This occurs because increasing one's hit or crit or haste gives percent damage increases, while increasing attack power has diminishing returns as your overall attack power goes up.

For example:
Pre-Kara: Most sheets are going to show the 16 AP gem (out of the standard gems) as best.
Mid-Kara: I ran into a brief moment where the 8 Agility came out on top, but nearly neck-to-neck with 16 AP and 8 Hit.
Late-Post-Kara: 8 Hit gems reign supreme.

Why? Well, when your base AP is only about 1500, 16 AP means quite a bit. Agility is half based on AP (half crit) so some of it scales well, some doesn't. Hit rating being purely a % increase to damage, scales best.
Not sure I quite follow. I was under the impression that X Amount of attack power is going to always give you 1 DPS and that's not going to change. This would imply that Attack Power does not scale inversely as the amount of it you have goes up.

On the other hand Crit and Hit (as well as Haste of course) are going to become more valuable with more on-crit abilities (Seal Fate, Hourglass, etc.) and on-hit abilites (Dragonspine Trophy, Poisons, etc.).

I could be wrong here but I always assumed this.
#222SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Zellyn
The xAP/14=yDPS only applies to white damage. AP also scales instant attacks and finishers, so the DPS gain is much larger than just one AP.
#223SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Urgonzigh
Can someone point me to the math or testing which supports the rating of 4 Armor Penetration = 1 AP? All I can find is, "that's what the spreadsheet says."
#224SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Faytte
Originally Posted by Dontmindme View Post

As to the swords vs. daggers, right now swords of the same level are superior to equal daggers at all gear levels because of the superiority of sword specialization.
The advantage held by swords is not simply due to sword specialziation, but also do to the much more efficient finisher rotations that all non-backstab specs utilize. The average finisher rotation for sword rogues is in the mid 20 seconds (depending on 2 piece tier 4 or no). The average finishing rotation for c-daggers (3s/5s/5r) takes over a minute. That means that over time your combat sword/fist rogue is keeping rupture up on the target more often, and the increase in rupture dps offsets the DPE advantages of backstab over SS and generates a lead in overall dps.

The single easiest way to 'help combat daggers' is to address the rotation. That could mean cheapening backstab cost leading to more CP, or something else entirely.
#225SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
 Aldriana
I would suggest that we not go down the road of swords vs daggers, as we've already almost had one thread closed due to this debate. However, stated briefly: it is true that daggers get less finisher damage than swords; however, it is also true that backstab is more energy-efficient than Sinister Strike, such that the total damage from Combo Point Generators + Finishers is about the same in both cases. Sword Spec - and in particular OH Sword Spec - is actually the main reason for the superiority of swords these days.

If you would like more information about this, there are any number of posts on it in the Rogue Gear Spreadsheet thread.

Last edited by Aldriana : 10/26/07 at 3:52 PM.
#226SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Vulajin
Originally Posted by Varsyn View Post
I think part of the confusion on the derived numbers may be the surface inconsistency in them. Even looking at Aldriana's thread, I am still a little confused as to how exactly these work out. For example:

1agi = 2aep
1cr = 1.6 aep

...

So, I am left wondering how exactly 1agi is worth 2aep within this system. So maybe a quick summary in the same place as the displayed numbers explaining how the base values were derived might help.
The buffs used to derive these values were as follows: Improved Fortitude, Gift of the Wild, Improved Battle Shout, Improved Blessing of Might, Unleashed Rage, Improved Hunter's Mark, Flask of Relentless Assault, Warp Burger, Improved Strength of Earth Totem, Sunder Armor, Faerie Fire, Mangle, Heroism/Bloodlust. MH Windfury, OH Deadly Poison. Blessing of Kings was turned on and off as needed to observe differences based on that.

Gear used was, as given in the first post, a set consisting entirely of gear a pre-SSC/TK rogue could be expected to have. Netherblade Facemask, Choker of Vile Intent, Bladed Shoulderpads of the Merciless, Netherblade Chestpiece, Shard-bound Bracers, Netherblade Gloves, Girdle of the Deathdealer (I also tried with Gronn-Stitched Girdle and had very similar results), Skulker's Greaves, Edgewalker Longboots, Ring of a Thousand Marks, Violet Signet of the Master Assassin, Dragonspine Trophy (also tried with Abacus of Violent Odds to ensure DST wasn't throwing it off), Bloodlust Brooch, Spiteblade (also tried with Merciless Gladiator's Shanker), Merciless Gladiator's Quickblade (also tried with Merciless Gladiator's Shiv), Sunfury Bow of the Phoenix.

Builds used were standard 19/41+1 combat swords and 15/41/5 combat daggers. Your Armory, in fact, was what reminded me that I never specifically tested with combat daggers, so I will provide the values for that here. Note that a large number of your issues with my numbers stem either from the dagger oversight or from rounding, because I did not want to have all the weights be double-digit decimal. I think I'll change that in the future. (Weights for fists and fist/sword without Kings included for comparison.)

Combat Swords
1 Str = 1 AP (1.1 w/ Kings)
1 Agi = 2.00 AP (2.21 w/ Kings)
1 Crit = 1.74 AP (1.75 w/ Kings)
1 Hit = 2.34 AP (2.37 w/ Kings)
1 ArP = 0.27 AP (0.27 w/ Kings)
1 Haste = 2.01 AP (2.05 w/ Kings)

Combat Daggers
1 Str = 1 AP (1.1 w/ Kings)
1 Agi = 1.96 AP (2.17 w/ Kings)
1 Crit = 1.67 AP (1.69 w/ Kings)
1 Hit = 2.21 AP (2.24 w/ Kings)
1 ArP = 0.30 AP (0.30 w/ Kings)
1 Haste = 2.07 AP (2.11 w/ Kings)

Fist/Sword (no Kings)
1 Str = 1 AP
1 Agi = 1.97 AP
1 Crit = 1.69 AP
1 Hit = 2.21 AP
1 ArP = 0.27 AP
1 Haste = 2.01 AP

Combat Fists (no Kings)
1 Str = 1 AP
1 Agi = 1.96 AP
1 Crit = 1.67 AP
1 Hit = 2.10 AP
1 ArP = 0.27 AP
1 Haste = 2.00 AP

The primary differences between swords and daggers seem to be that agility, crit, and hit are all slightly more valuable with swords, but armor penetration and haste slightly less valuable. Note that the values of agility, crit, hit, armor penetration, and haste will all scale up relative to AP as your gear improves. Also note that fist/sword and fists seem to incorporate the poorer scaling of swords for armor penetration and haste, and the poorer scaling of daggers for agility, crit, and hit.

I'd like to figure out some way to integrate the above information into the first post in a compact manner. Once I do, I'll make the change. And as always, thanks for checking my facts for me. I'm only one guy, I can't get everything perfect on the first shot.
#227SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3sedrikk
I am just curious how others modify their dps cycle to accommodate AP increasing procs and abilities. Things such as Mongoose, Unleashed Rage, Tsunami Talisman, Hourglass of the Unraveller, etc. I often find myself unable to reapply rupture because i still have time left on my previous which was applied while i had an AP buff, and now the AP buff is gone. So I am spamming the rupture key yet all i get is the fun "A more powerful spell is already active" message. So while i wait i continue to regen energy, SnD gets closer to running out, and my 1s/5r cycle can get completely thrown off. Depending on how lucky i get with relentless and combat potency the time can be several seconds. Is it best to just wait the entire duration of rupture, which can lead to a loss of snd and a loss of energy and continue with the 5 pt rupture. Or is it best to just throw up a 5pt snd and start building combo points for a 5pt rupture and let rupture fall off and not snd. Or perhaps a 5pt evis, and then start over.
#228SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Ticia
Originally Posted by Faytte View Post
The advantage held by swords is not simply due to sword specialziation, but also do to the much more efficient finisher rotations that all non-backstab specs utilize. The average finisher rotation for sword rogues is in the mid 20 seconds (depending on 2 piece tier 4 or no). The average finishing rotation for c-daggers (3s/5s/5r) takes over a minute. That means that over time your combat sword/fist rogue is keeping rupture up on the target more often, and the increase in rupture dps offsets the DPE advantages of backstab over SS and generates a lead in overall dps.

The single easiest way to 'help combat daggers' is to address the rotation. That could mean cheapening backstab cost leading to more CP, or something else entirely.

Edit: Damnit, Aldriana beat me to the punch and was more concise about it.
#229SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Faytte
Yep. Noted for future threads to, srry for the sword v dag stuff
#230SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Arindelest
Originally Posted by sedrikk View Post
I am just curious how others modify their dps cycle to accommodate AP increasing procs and abilities. Things such as Mongoose, Unleashed Rage, Tsunami Talisman, Hourglass of the Unraveller, etc. I often find myself unable to reapply rupture because i still have time left on my previous which was applied while i had an AP buff, and now the AP buff is gone. So I am spamming the rupture key yet all i get is the fun "A more powerful spell is already active" message. So while i wait i continue to regen energy, SnD gets closer to running out, and my 1s/5r cycle can get completely thrown off. Depending on how lucky i get with relentless and combat potency the time can be several seconds. Is it best to just wait the entire duration of rupture, which can lead to a loss of snd and a loss of energy and continue with the 5 pt rupture. Or is it best to just throw up a 5pt snd and start building combo points for a 5pt rupture and let rupture fall off and not snd. Or perhaps a 5pt evis, and then start over.
The problem with Rupture (and the whole "overwrite" situation) is that there are so many variable buffs that even were it very advantageous to optimally time your Ruptures it is basically impossible to do so. For example there are many buffs which you can't control, but end up going off, such as Mongoose, UR, TT, Hourglass, Ferocious Inspiration, Grace of Air Totem (for a totem-twisting shaman); there are ones you can (Bloodlust Brooch, etc.).

You're never going to get the "optimal" buffs up just because there are so many, for example, at one point you may have Double Mongoose, and think that is a good point to Rupture, but the next time you have 5 Combo Points, you now have UR + Mongoose + TT.

So instead, if you can, just build to five combo points and drop the Rupture, if you can't, I tend to SS an extra time or two (even with 5 CPs) and then Rupture when I can, then use SnD as I would normally. This results in little to no lost SnD uptime. Also, once you lose the 2pc-NB bonus this problem basically never occurs, because you're spending a lot more of your Rupture time building for the succeeding SnD.
#231SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Varsyn
Originally Posted by Vulajin View Post

Combat Swords
1 Str = 1 AP (1.1 w/ Kings)
1 Agi = 2.00 AP (2.21 w/ Kings)
1 Crit = 1.74 AP (1.75 w/ Kings)
1 Hit = 2.34 AP (2.37 w/ Kings)
1 ArP = 0.27 AP (0.27 w/ Kings)
1 Haste = 2.01 AP (2.05 w/ Kings)

Combat Daggers
1 Str = 1 AP (1.1 w/ Kings)
1 Agi = 1.96 AP (2.17 w/ Kings)
1 Crit = 1.67 AP (1.69 w/ Kings)
1 Hit = 2.21 AP (2.24 w/ Kings)
1 ArP = 0.30 AP (0.30 w/ Kings)
1 Haste = 2.07 AP (2.11 w/ Kings)
Excellent, these I can agree with

I'd like to figure out some way to integrate the above information into the first post in a compact manner. Once I do, I'll make the change. And as always, thanks for checking my facts for me. I'm only one guy, I can't get everything perfect on the first shot.
I think for the sake of compactness, you do not really need to include all the additive buffs. Maybe just include specifications on the buffs that affect a total unit by a % such as kings, sinister calling, presence of Relentless Earthstorm Diamond, etc.

And really, we should be thanking you! Taking the time and putting in the effort to write this compendium of useful information is really very neat. I don't think words can describe just how thankful many rogues will be to have this useful information compiled into a single post for quick reference. So, with that, I offer you a hearty "Thank you!"
#232SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Auluras
So here is a quick question I'm not sure if its been asked yet but......is the amount of hit rating a rogue will loose going from Kara to ZA gear worth while? or should one stick with the Karazhan Gear and focus on the weapon drops in ZA and only worry about getting the boots from Badge turn in. Or is the Haste and Ignore Armor a larger DPS upgrade for us over the Huge Hit rating we would looses
#233SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Vulajin
Originally Posted by Auluras View Post
So here is a quick question I'm not sure if its been asked yet but......is the amount of hit rating a rogue will loose going from Kara to ZA gear worth while? or should one stick with the Karazhan Gear and focus on the weapon drops in ZA and only worry about getting the boots from Badge turn in. Or is the Haste and Ignore Armor a larger DPS upgrade for us over the Huge Hit rating we would looses
I bet the first post answers these questions. I just betcha. Don't ask how I know.
#234SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Kenamoto
Sorry if I'm repeating old news, but I've been going through threads to find out where maces fall in dps now since the 2.3 changes on the PTR with weapon skill to expertise now and maces gaining a 5% damage increase on critcal strikes. I saw on the first page reading the roguecraft post that for a maces spec you didn't need weapon expertise since that only affected swords, daggers and fist. Now it's changed and was wondering is that now needed for maces? I know maces is a little bit more pve viable but where can I find some more info on combat maces?
#235SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Volc
Looking at the new changes with mace spec receiving 5% crit damage and sword procs effecting mainhand it would nearly be possible to make a mace/sword spec that is a viable spec for pve and pvp, with minimal loss of talents from either side. I'm looking forward to it.
#236SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Vulajin
Originally Posted by Kenamoto View Post
Sorry if I'm repeating old news, but I've been going through threads to find out where maces fall in dps now since the 2.3 changes on the PTR with weapon skill to expertise now and maces gaining a 5% damage increase on critcal strikes. I saw on the first page reading the roguecraft post that for a maces spec you didn't need weapon expertise since that only affected swords, daggers and fist. Now it's changed and was wondering is that now needed for maces? I know maces is a little bit more pve viable but where can I find some more info on combat maces?
Originally Posted by Volc View Post
Looking at the new changes with mace spec receiving 5% crit damage and sword procs effecting mainhand it would nearly be possible to make a mace/sword spec that is a viable spec for pve and pvp, with minimal loss of talents from either side. I'm looking forward to it.
Responses to both of these things are in the first post, in the "Preliminary 2.3 Information" section.
#237SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Volc
wasn't after a response was making a statement :P
#238SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Mideci
Has anyone actually tested 2.3 at all to find out (a) if the dual-wield miss penalty has seen any changes or (b) if the massive increase in misses is reducing dps meaningfully?
#239SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Bluefish
Originally Posted by Vulajin View Post
- If anyone with some spare time, maces, and a RED could get on the PTR and figure out how the new mace spec and RED interact, I'd greatly appreciate it.
Done. Download here.

All logs are with 1540 AP, no procs altering attack power. They should be pretty clearly labelled as to what effects were in play with each log. I was wielding a [Blackout Truncheon] with a boquet of flowers in the off-hand.

If there's any questions or you need more data, let me know

Last edited by Bluefish : 10/27/07 at 5:39 PM.
#240SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Urgonzigh
Can someone point me to the math or testing which demonstrates how much armor penetration increases DPS? I see above where 0.27 ArP = 1 AP for sword rogues, but the only source I can find is, "that's what the spreadsheet says."
#241SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Vulajin
Originally Posted by Urgonzigh View Post
Can someone point me to the math or testing which demonstrates how much armor penetration increases DPS? I see above where 0.27 ArP = 1 AP for sword rogues, but the only source I can find is, "that's what the spreadsheet says."
The math is in the spreadsheet. Moreover, it varies with your gear and spec. 0.27 ArP = 1 AP is an example value for a particular configuration of gear and talents.
#242SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Autolycus
armor pen

Just curious, because damage mitigation through armor works on a non-linear scale, in your equations where 1 armor pen = 0.27 ap, does this change with the more armor penetration you get? are there any charts out there that show how the mitigation works from 1 armor - 32k armor?
#243SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Aldriana
The .27 number is drawn from what a boss typically has in a raid situation. As you get more armor penetration, it becomes more powerful - and, conversely, if you have less armor penetration, it's worth less. That said, in the ranges that we usually operate (where it's hard to have more than 500 or so passive armor penetration from gear) the value doesn't fluxuate too dramatically, so as a first approximation I think the .27 number is fine. Those that want a more detailed answer, customized to their current gear and talents, can use the spreadsheet to obtain it.
#244SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3panny
Originally Posted by izobelle View Post
blizzard has said they don't really care too much about this so called "totem twisting". i wouldn't read 'they're gonna change it' from that, but maybe they will.

on the other hand, it's such a waste of time and mana on the shamans part that i REALLY think you'd be hard pressed to find a shaman interested in doing this. they need to be continuously throwing totems down, and can't really do anything else effectively at that same time (heal or DPS).

it's only really a proof on concept; hardly applicable in a raid.
How is 88 agility for 5 people a waste of time and mana? Obviously, there is a gain there, the trade-offs should be considered instead of dismissing it.

First of all: time. Not including buff totems every 2 minutes, all Shaman do while DPSing is to click Stormstrike every 10 seconds and a shock every 6 seconds. We have plently of free GCDs. Since instants don't interrupt auto-attacking, we can drop totems during our free GCDs to boost DPS.

Secondly: mana. This will be dependant on your Shaman's gear, but I manage a WF rank 2 rotation with a max rank GoA fine. If your Shaman doesn't have the gear/consumable usage to do this, he should work out whether 88 agility is more overall raidDPS than his shock rotation and prioritise whichever is higher when he's mana constrained (it is most likely totem twisting).

One thing to clarify though: GoA can't be up for 100% of the time due to the GCD. The best you can hope for without losing WF Totem is 81%.
#245SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Urgonzigh
Well, there are a few problems with simply relying on messing with the spreadsheet and seeing what it say for the value of armor penetration.

1. Sometimes spreadsheets have mistakes and so independant verification is valuable.

2. By understanding the formulas, I can, for example, figure out which stats and talents are synergistic and so make better choices.

3. When I tell the other rogues, "Well, the spreadsheet says..." I get cut off by someone saying "you and your *** spreadsheets."

To a zero order approximation, AP and ArP do the same thing - increase the damage done by each hit. Why do they both need to exist? There must be a crossover point where itemizing ArP becomes more effective, or some types of target where ArP is more effective.
#246SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Vulajin
Originally Posted by Urgonzigh View Post
Well, there are a few problems with simply relying on messing with the spreadsheet and seeing what it say for the value of armor penetration.

1. Sometimes spreadsheets have mistakes and so independant verification is valuable.

2. By understanding the formulas, I can, for example, figure out which stats and talents are synergistic and so make better choices.

3. When I tell the other rogues, "Well, the spreadsheet says..." I get cut off by someone saying "you and your *** spreadsheets."

To a zero order approximation, AP and ArP do the same thing - increase the damage done by each hit. Why do they both need to exist? There must be a crossover point where itemizing ArP becomes more effective, or some types of target where ArP is more effective.
Long story short, the calculations are far too complex to simply "verify independently," unless you wish to construct your own spreadsheet. The spreadsheet calculations incorporate all of your procs and talents as well as your combo point cycle to arrive at a conclusion. I can't imagine actually going through the tedium to repeat such calculations by hand. Might there be mistakes in the spreadsheet? Possibly. Are they blatant enough to be easily shown using calculations done by hand? No.
#247SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Bluefish
Is anybody gonna do anything with the Mace Spec / RED / Lethality combat logs I posted here? I'd do the math myself but I'm not sure I'm capable of it...
#248SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Vulajin
Originally Posted by Bluefish View Post
Is anybody gonna do anything with the Mace Spec / RED / Lethality combat logs I posted here? I'd do the math myself but I'm not sure I'm capable of it...
Sorry, I downloaded your log the other day, I haven't had a chance to go through it yet. Thanks for reminding me, though.
#249SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3HazardBlade
I've been looking over and doing some tests in-game and I've realised that your guide contains an error; apparently 1 agility = 1 attack power, instead of two. If I am wrong, and this is an upcoming change in a later patch then sorry, was just trying to point it out.

Can anyone shed any light on the matter?
#250SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Rerolled
From the first post: These guidelines work by comparing the amount of DPS provided by any one stat to the amount of DPS provided by a point of Attack Power
#251SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3HazardBlade
Aha... Sorry about that - complete brainfart. Can a mod remove my post / whatever?
#252SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Shaker
By the way, that is one of the reasons that the abbreviation should be switched from "AP" to "AEP" or "AtkEP".
#253SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Aldriana
Personally I tend to use EAP (Effective Attack Power) rather than AtkEP, because it's shorter. Although I suppose there is more possibility of confusion when talking about both EAP and AEP.
#254SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Shaker
Yeah, I suppose I'm not being hardcore about what it ends up being, as long as it's not "AP", and I suppose I'd kinda prefer not "AEP" since that can be confused with Agility Equivalency. EAP is fine. APEP would kinda work too, and is reasonably distinct.
#255SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Vulajin
Overhauled the Gear Selection section, also added a tidbit to the patch 2.3 info about valuing expertise rating. Check it over and let me know if it's okay now (I'm still a bit uncertain about two-digit decimal precision and having so many different values, but I'd rather be accused of being too comprehensive than inaccurate).
#256SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Dontmindme
You should qualify the 3.5% loss to hit as being "vs. bosses" in the Expertise section. The loss is minimal vs. trash.
#257SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Shaker
Also, the "Hit Cap" section is not reflecting the changes in 2.3 (though that may be intentional UNTIL 2.3) with regards to WEx.
#258SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Vulajin
Originally Posted by Shaker View Post
Also, the "Hit Cap" section is not reflecting the changes in 2.3 (though that may be intentional UNTIL 2.3) with regards to WEx.
It is intentional. I'll update the other sections when 2.3 is imminent (i.e. a week away) or live.
#259SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Left
As for geming for a Mutilate build, my hunch is (and the current Rogue DPS spreadsheet agrees for T4 level gearing) that +agi has a greater benefit than +hit. Thus, all red sockets should be +8 agi and all yellow sockets should be +4agi/+4hit.

Unbuffed, when I ran the DPS spreadsheet's agility equivalence points calculator I got 1agi=0.74hit=0.56ap for a Mutilate build. Buffed (Kings and Windfury being the key buffs), the equivalence was 1agi=0.88hit=0.51ap. Since so much of a Mutilate build's damage comes from specials and finishers, the combo point generation scaling of crits from +agi yield a better DPS boost than the white damage scaling from +hit.

(Interestingly, without Windfury +crit is worth almost as much as +hit in the spreadsheet, which shows the importance of crits in a Mutilate build. Also interesting was that going from Windfury to Instant Poison was only a ~10 buffed DPS loss for my gear level, which surprised me.)

This was my experience early Kara when I was still running a Mutilate build. Getting in 2 4-5CP finishers between slice and dices is just awesome.
#260SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3goatpoker
Hello,

I've been playing a rogue for a while now - never had much time to play, and now I have a bit too much time which lead me to these forums. I've learned a lot about the rogue class, and I want to thank you folks for all your hard work and valuable information. There are a few things that aren't as clear to me as I'd like however and I hope that as I read, the mud will clear from the water.

I would like you to take a look at my current rogue on the armory, and give me a critique on how I could improve my raid damage. I currently am what I thought a rather pvp/pve hybrid, where I took out some points from sub (motd) and rearranged my other talents to be a productive combat build in a raid scenario. However, I feel that I'm lacking maxing out my rogues' potential quite a bit.

If you take a gander at the build; the gear I have is the "best" gear I own. There's not much I change when I pve/pvp except for a resilience/+dodge helm.

I have yet to look at my gems and their EAP worth, (which I just learned today from this post) but could you give me a critique on my rogue, and let me know what/how you think I could improve. (short of going to a pve combat swords build; since I dont have any swords or daggers that are higher than 71 dps blues)

Goatpoker, hakkar server
The World of Warcraft Armory

Thanks for the advice in advance
#261SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Shaker
Just so you know, these types of posts are frowned upon - the whole reason we have topics like these with summaries at the top is so you can do the general work yourself - if you have specific questions, you'll usually get an answer by "Here's my armory, tell me what I can do better" is best left for the WWS thread.

So as not to just be a crybaby about forum rules, to answer your questions, your best bet is to look into the two spreadsheets linked in the first post of this thread - for your gear level, and to figure out how things work with your particular talent build, I'd highly recommend the DPS spreadsheet. If you end up in a more conventional combat build and with a tad higher gear level, I personally prefer the gear sheet (though that is a personal opinion). Both sheets have a lot of value, and will get you within very acceptable margins of error for the answers you're looking for.
#262SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
goatpoker
Alright, I figured as much.

I'll have to take a more indepth look at the spreadsheets - I had downloaded them and browsed through them trying to understand... but the problem I encountered was that I could not pick gear (such as maces) that I had, and therefore I could not use the sheet as I initially thought I could.

It seems that as well created the sheet is; it's based on very high end gear specific to conventional "best" raid types - such as combat swords.

I'll be posting the thread above in the wow forums to see what type of reaction I might get since I'm not up to par yet on the elitist level.

Last edited by goatpoker : 11/02/07 at 3:26 PM.
#263SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Tomb
First off, very good post you have put together been a good read with alot of great information.

Now my question !

With the change to mace spec in 2.3 would a Mace/Sword spec abit like the Fist/Sword one work?

I understand the crit bonus is different on mace to fist but with weapons like BS mace *haste* would this be something worth testing/trying?

Sorry if this has been posted before or has not been posted because it does not work.

Thanks

Tomb
#264SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Tryss
I noticed something interesting today while leveling my unarmed skill in Blasted Lands against the invincible mob. All my strikes always hit for 139 or 140, but my critical strikes hit for 285 or 286 (about 204% damage). I do not have the 12 agil/+3% crit damage meta gem (I have the +3 damage/chance to stun one [which is underwhelming, by the way], and I took my helm off in case that was messing with something). I was just auto attacking with my bare fists, so nothing like Lethality could explain it. In fact, the only explanation I have is that Murder doesn't just give +2% damage, but acts like the Hunter Slaying Talents, and gives +2% damage and increases critical damage by an additional 2%.

Anybody else have any explanation, information or insight on this talent/situation?
#265SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Aldriana
This was dicussed in the Relentless Earthstorm Diamond thread; the conclusion was that, yes, Murder double-passes on critical strikes.
#266SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Lavery
Originally Posted by Tomb View Post
First off, very good post you have put together been a good read with alot of great information.

Now my question !

With the change to mace spec in 2.3 would a Mace/Sword spec abit like the Fist/Sword one work?

I understand the crit bonus is different on mace to fist but with weapons like BS mace *haste* would this be something worth testing/trying?

Sorry if this has been posted before or has not been posted because it does not work.

Thanks

Tomb
From the second page:

http://elitistjerks.com/509683-post30.html
http://elitistjerks.com/513443-post44.html

It was covered a few more times in later pages, these were merely the first two I found.
#267SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3flaminghomer
Hemorrhage: This ability now does 125% of weapon damage. (source)
#268SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Vulajin
I'm aware of it and plan to have some DPS comparisons for the new Hemo available tomorrow at some point. A rough guess on inspection suggests that an 11/28/22 Hemo/swords build or 11/21/29 Hemo/Deadliness may well equal or surpass combat swords in base DPS, before factoring in the contribution of the Hemo debuff. However, this is just a guess and should not be taken as gospel.
#269SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3ModusTollens
I was looking over this thread, and the gem selection portion of the post had me confused. I was under the impression that +AP gems were more beneficial than +agi gems (im combat daggers).

The newest Rogue dps spreadsheet keeps telling me that AP gems are higher dps, what am i missing? I dont mind re-gemming, but i want to get a more clear understanding before I do.
#270SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Cos-
Originally Posted by ModusTollens View Post
I was looking over this thread, and the gem selection portion of the post had me confused. I was under the impression that +AP gems were more beneficial than +agi gems (im combat daggers).

The newest Rogue dps spreadsheet keeps telling me that AP gems are higher dps, what am i missing? I dont mind re-gemming, but i want to get a more clear understanding before I do.
This thread depends on the equivalency calculations that Vulajin has in the first post. The end result is along the lines of : Raid buffs make pure agi gems better then pure ap (with the exception of 1 20 ap gem from pvp) until you get access to t6 gems (10 agi is basically always worth more then 20 ap). That will probably be all moot anyway when the patch hits and the hit cap rockets up another 60 points.
#271SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Vulajin
http://elitistjerks.com/536225-post549.html

I ran the numbers in the above post and, as I thought, 11/28/22 is more than competitive with combat swords, even before factoring in the Hemo debuff. As such, it may be beneficial for several rogues in any given raid to be Hemo, even if all the charges don't get eaten up every time.

I'll wait a couple days to see if anything more changes before I put this information in the first post.
#272SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Shaker
Originally Posted by Vulajin View Post
http://elitistjerks.com/536225-post549.html

I ran the numbers in the above post and, as I thought, 11/28/22 is more than competitive with combat swords, even before factoring in the Hemo debuff. As such, it may be beneficial for several rogues in any given raid to be Hemo, even if all the charges don't get eaten up every time.

I'll wait a couple days to see if anything more changes before I put this information in the first post.
Now, in the interest of balance, what buff to Hemo (along these same lines) brings it up to par with Combat Swords, but doesn't trounce it out of the water? I think it's somewhat ... silly that a buff to Sub makes it FoTM (though it's been known to happen - see arcane mages in 2.2) and something like this single change that totally affects the class and makes one build vastly superior (+5% dps BEFORE the debuff? yes please) is likely to get nerfed in the future. It may be interesting (and hell, if Blizzard reads these boards, it might even be USEFUL) to extrapolate a weapon damage % buff to Hemo that would bring it completely in line with combat swords without making it so that all your rogues should be sub. (I'd advocate a similar setup for assassination/mut builds, but Bliz seems to be happy with assassination atm).

What would those numbers look like with a 110% weapon damage modifier on Hemo? 115%?

And before everyone jumps me as a hemo hater, I'd really like it to be very viable for one rogue to go hemo and have it be an overall raid dps increase, but the marginal benefits of more than one rogue being so to be less (though still within ~5% of all other competitive builds). If it isn't, and regardless of the debuff 11/28/22 is still king, then we just have the same problem we have today (Combat being the only way to be), except it's in a different tree.
#273SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Vulajin
Originally Posted by Shaker View Post
(+5% dps BEFORE the debuff? yes please)
I have probably been unclear in my post, but all the theoretical DPS numbers given for the builds did include the Hemo debuff estimate. At that gear level, Hemo/swords (11/28/22) comes out roughly equivalent to 19/41+1 before the debuff.
#274SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3sp00n
Not trying to disregard your work Vulajin, but what kind of spreadsheet are you using for your calculations?

I know spreadsheets can only be so far precise, but comparing a 11/28/22 build to a standard 20/41 combat build with the newest DPS Spreadsheed (already updated with 125% normalized hemo), I see combat leading with a good 30 DPS. If I uncheck the home debuff (but leave it checked for the hemo build), combat is falling behind by only 3 DPS.

This is why I'd like to ask, are you confident that your spreadsheet can take it up with the DPS spreadsheet, with all its considerations and side effects, procs, etc. (but also possible flaws)?
#275SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Fold
*edit* found the answer to my question in the Hemo thread

Last edited by Fold : 11/03/07 at 10:16 PM.
#276SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Vulajin
Originally Posted by sp00n View Post
Not trying to disregard your work Vulajin, but what kind of spreadsheet are you using for your calculations?

I know spreadsheets can only be so far precise, but comparing a 11/28/22 build to a standard 20/41 combat build with the newest DPS Spreadsheed (already updated with 125% normalized hemo), I see combat leading with a good 30 DPS. If I uncheck the home debuff (but leave it checked for the hemo build), combat is falling behind by only 3 DPS.

This is why I'd like to ask, are you confident that your spreadsheet can take it up with the DPS spreadsheet, with all its considerations and side effects, procs, etc. (but also possible flaws)?
I'm pretty confident in the accuracy of my spreadsheet. Note that I exclude the effect the Hemo debuff has on the rogue's personal DPS, because I'm already calculating the total DPS provided by the debuff as part of the rogue's DPS. Regardless of whether the rogue or someone else is consuming the debuff, as long as it gets fully consumed, the total DPS yielded will be a certain amount.

If you'd like to take a look at my sheet and confirm its accuracy, send me a PM and I'll be happy to e-mail it to you. I would already have released it publicly, but I don't consider it fit for public consumption yet (the UI is still not fully functional). When it does reach that point, especially since the DPS spreadsheet doesn't currently have an author, I'll probably release mine.
#277SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3sp00n
Originally Posted by Vulajin View Post
Note that I exclude the effect the Hemo debuff has on the rogue's personal DPS, because I'm already calculating the total DPS provided by the debuff as part of the rogue's DPS.
Ah I see. The numbers make more sense then.


Originally Posted by Vulajin View Post
I'm pretty confident in the accuracy of my spreadsheet.
[...]
If you'd like to take a look at my sheet and confirm its accuracy, send me a PM and I'll be happy to e-mail it to you. I would already have released it publicly, but I don't consider it fit for public consumption yet (the UI is still not fully functional). When it does reach that point, especially since the DPS spreadsheet doesn't currently have an author, I'll probably release mine.
Again, not trying to disregard or disrespect you and your work, but do we really need a third spreadsheet for the rogue class? Seeing how much the DPS spreadsheet has evolved and what features it offers (gear upgrades, cycle recommendations, AEP calculations, gem upgrades, etc), does your spreadsheet bring something new to the table? Did you manage to circumvent any of the stumbling blocks, errors, mistakes (seal fate comes to mind)?

Honestly speaking, wouldn't it be better if you focused your energy on maintaining the existing DPS spreadsheet (which is now without an author as you have noticed), instead of trying to re-invent the wheel (a third time)?

Again, I appreciate every work and theorycraft for the rogue class, especially such a complicated task as writing a spreadsheet, I am just wondering if this is the right approach.
#278SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Vulajin
Originally Posted by sp00n View Post
Again, not trying to disregard or disrespect you and your work, but do we really need a third spreadsheet for the rogue class? Seeing how much the DPS spreadsheet has evolved and what features it offers (gear upgrades, cycle recommendations, AEP calculations, gem upgrades, etc), does your spreadsheet bring something new to the table? Did you manage to circumvent any of the stumbling blocks, errors, mistakes (seal fate comes to mind)?

Honestly speaking, wouldn't it be better if you focused your energy on maintaining the existing DPS spreadsheet (which is now without an author as you have noticed), instead of trying to re-invent the wheel (a third time)?

Again, I appreciate every work and theorycraft for the rogue class, especially such a complicated task as writing a spreadsheet, I am just wondering if this is the right approach.
Well, the story of why I wrote my spreadsheet is a bit off-topic, but since you asked, I'll answer. This should clear up any confusion about my intentions.

Initially my issue was with the accuracy of CP cycle models in other sheets. It's not that the other sheets don't have good models, but that they couldn't answer the particular questions I had. Specifically, what is the effect of the overall cycle DPS of the chance that procs don't occur? In a typical Xs/5r cycle, there is a chance the Slice doesn't proc Relentless Strikes, and a chance either finisher doesn't proc Ruthlessness. I wanted to have a more exact value for Slice uptime, factoring these things in. Both other spreadsheets, I believe, would calculate Slice uptime at ~100% for 2s/5r with T4 2pc. This is accurate in a sense, but if Slice ever drops (in the situation of no-procs, for example), then your average Slice uptime cannot possibly be 100%.

My second issue had to do with the lack of freedom in cycle selection in the other sheets. I really wanted to be able to enter literally any cycle in my sheet, and compare it accurately against other cycles. For this, I needed more than just Slice uptime and Rupture uptime; I needed to know exact values for white DPS (to figure out the DPS contribution of Slice) and for special attacks (both Sinister Strike/Backstab and finishers). So I implemented calculations for these things.

Another thing I needed to know was my energy contribution from Combat Potency. This was a function of several haste effects, such as Mongoose, which is a 2% haste proc with no internal cooldown. Haste procs with no internal cooldowns, under the old way of thinking (in which haste increased PPM effects), have circular effects. Thus, I needed to create a special model for these things; so I did. I went ahead and added models for DST, TSD, Dragonstrike, and others. I made all these calculations intentionally circular along with my cycle calculations, to ensure that any self-increasing effects (like haste procs w/o internal cooldowns) were modeled appropriately.

At this point I realized that I had large portions of the work for an honest-to-goodness DPS spreadsheet done. As a result, whenever a new question arose for which I needed a suitable answer, I would implement it in my own sheet and use that to provide the answer. Some examples of the questions I addressed are: raid Hemo builds, Shiv spam builds, how RED compared to TSD (when patch 2.2 was looming), and how Eviscerate cycles would compare to Rupture with 3/3 Imp Evis, 3/3 Aggression, and T5 2pc. Eventually I also decided that I liked my sheet enough to use seriously (i.e. to consult for gear and buff choices). So I took an hour here and there and added a full gear/buff selection sheet (the gear mostly has yet to be populated, though).

At this point after several months of using it to answer questions I felt couldn't be answered adequately to the degree of exactness I desired by the other sheets, it has approached the point of being roughly a duplicate of the same. Still, it has served me quite well -- most of the conclusions in the first post of this thread were made using my spreadsheet, and I'm pretty confident in their correctness.

If you ask whether I feel I've wasted my time, my answer would be no. Although the questions I initially asked when writing this spreadsheet have been answered or, in some cases, rendered obsolete (read: haste doesn't increase BC PPM effects), they were still important questions to ask at one time, and therefore the sheet has meaning. And for the record, I do still use it for all of my personal DPS questions.

Anyway. Sorry for the horribly off-topic rant. Feel free to PM me if you'd like to discuss it further.
#279SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3aleyro
(This seemed like the most appropriate thread for this comment; if not, I apologize.)

It seems as though as of patch 2.3, there will be a "build progression" that corresponds to the natural gear progression that exists in the raiding environment. Specifically:

Up to entry level t5 content, mutilate seems to be an accessible, effective build. There are 3 kara daggers available, and a mix of kara gear, badge gear, and heroic purples can easily give you the stats needed to support mutilate.

As long as you have the 4pc t4 bonus, you can experiment with deep sub builds that include active aggro reduction (shadow step) and death avoidance (cheat death).

Once you move beyond the t4 set bonus, you can transition to pure combat builds to maximize your dps output. Initially, that will probably be combat swords, eventually, that could switch to combat maces.

Basically, the best build is highly dependant on the gear available to you and the content you are facing, and there seems to be a smooth, planned transition layed out as you move through content.
#280SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Walkertr
With the changes coming in 2.3 to weapon skill i have been wondering lately how effective expertise would actually be. Most spreadsheets that i see show it to be on par with hit rating. However from my point of view as a rogue, most of the time we should be attacking mobs from behind to avoid the parry causing a tank to be killed. And if your not able to be parried or dodged from the mob then doesnt that effectivly make expertise at best situationally dependant and worthless in all but a few cases.
#281SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3ake
Has anyone done any research as to whether Mace/Sword in 2.3 will be as viable as Fist/Sword is today?

It just seems that it might be a reasonable pve/pvp hybrid if it works out.
#282SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Katria
Originally Posted by Walkertr View Post
With the changes coming in 2.3 to weapon skill i have been wondering lately how effective expertise would actually be. Most spreadsheets that i see show it to be on par with hit rating. However from my point of view as a rogue, most of the time we should be attacking mobs from behind to avoid the parry causing a tank to be killed. And if your not able to be parried or dodged from the mob then doesnt that effectivly make expertise at best situationally dependant and worthless in all but a few cases.

Weapon skill will reduce your target's dodge and parry at the same rate hit rating increases your hit (more or less). 16 weapon skill = -1% dodge and -1% parry for the mob. They can't parry from behind, but they can dodge. This has the added bonus of insuring that your yellow damage isn't dodged, which makes it slightly better than +1% hit.

The fact that it also reduces %parry for the mob is just gravy for when you aren't behind them for some reason.
#283SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Rerolled
Originally Posted by Walkertr View Post
With the changes coming in 2.3 to weapon skill i have been wondering lately how effective expertise would actually be. Most spreadsheets that i see show it to be on par with hit rating. However from my point of view as a rogue, most of the time we should be attacking mobs from behind to avoid the parry causing a tank to be killed. And if your not able to be parried or dodged from the mob then doesnt that effectivly make expertise at best situationally dependant and worthless in all but a few cases.
Mobs can dodge from behind. (Maybe this should be explicitly stated in the first post?)
#284SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Vulajin
Originally Posted by Walkertr View Post
With the changes coming in 2.3 to weapon skill i have been wondering lately how effective expertise would actually be. Most spreadsheets that i see show it to be on par with hit rating. However from my point of view as a rogue, most of the time we should be attacking mobs from behind to avoid the parry causing a tank to be killed. And if your not able to be parried or dodged from the mob then doesnt that effectivly make expertise at best situationally dependant and worthless in all but a few cases.
Originally Posted by ake View Post
Has anyone done any research as to whether Mace/Sword in 2.3 will be as viable as Fist/Sword is today?

It just seems that it might be a reasonable pve/pvp hybrid if it works out.
Answers to both of these questions are in the first post under "Preliminary 2.3 Information."

Originally Posted by aleyro View Post
(This seemed like the most appropriate thread for this comment; if not, I apologize.)

It seems as though as of patch 2.3, there will be a "build progression" that corresponds to the natural gear progression that exists in the raiding environment. Specifically:

Up to entry level t5 content, mutilate seems to be an accessible, effective build. There are 3 kara daggers available, and a mix of kara gear, badge gear, and heroic purples can easily give you the stats needed to support mutilate.

As long as you have the 4pc t4 bonus, you can experiment with deep sub builds that include active aggro reduction (shadow step) and death avoidance (cheat death).

Once you move beyond the t4 set bonus, you can transition to pure combat builds to maximize your dps output. Initially, that will probably be combat swords, eventually, that could switch to combat maces.

Basically, the best build is highly dependant on the gear available to you and the content you are facing, and there seems to be a smooth, planned transition layed out as you move through content.
I don't believe that Blizzard had such foresight when they planned BC itemization for rogues, nor do I believe your assessment of the viability of builds is accurate. Notably, deep sub builds will always be terrible for DPS, no matter what gear level. Combat swords is always a top flight DPS option, regardless of gear level.

Originally Posted by Rerolled View Post
Mobs can dodge from behind. (Maybe this should be explicitly stated in the first post?)
I'd rather not clutter up the first post with a ton of stuff that's general to all classes. There is a combat mechanics thread somewhere on the boards...I'll try to dig it up.
#285SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Ashersky
EP applied to leg armor?

Is it safe to assume we should apply the EP system to leg armor selection as well?

I assume Nethercobra Leg Armor > Cobrahide Leg Armor > Nethercleft Leg Armor > Clefthide Leg Armor based on the following (fist/sword buffed numbers used). Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Nethercobra Leg Armor
+50 AP
+12 Crit Strike Rating

50 EP + 20.52 EP (12 * 1.71) = 70.52 EP

Cobrahide Leg Armor
+40 AP
+10 Crit Strike Rating

40 EP + 17.1 EP (10 * 1.71) = 57.1 EP

Nethercleft Leg Armor
+40 Stamina
+12 Agility

0 EP + 26.16 EP (12 * 2.18) = 26.16 EP

Clefthide Leg Armor
+30 Stamina
+10 Agility

0 EP + 21.8 EP (10 * 2.18) = 21.8 EP

Not sure if Leg Armor warrants its own section in the post, but a sentence under "self-buffs" much like the drums explanation may be useful.
#286SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Oscarvil
Is it really necessary to spell out every little detail such as EP for leg armour where it is obvious which is the optimum choice?

There is pretty much one set of enchants which are optimal for rogues (with a couple of exceptions) in PvE. The CE head enchant, the Aldor shoulder enchant (very small difference in EP between this and the Scryer enchant as detailed in the OP), +6 stats to chest, +12 agi to cloak, +24 AP to bracer, +15 agi to gloves, Nethercobra armour for legs and Cat's Swiftness to boots. There is benefit on sustained fights to choosing +12 agi to boots over run speed increase but the others really should be a no-brainer.

It is understandable that gems may need more explanation due to the fact there are 3 types of gem which change in relative power as gear progresses but this is not the case for leg enchants where 10 seconds thought on the topic makes clear that the Nethercobra is the best by far.

EP is supposed to be used to weight similar power items for optimum choice, there is no question which of the four leg armours is the most powerful so including a section on EP detailing the obvious seems like a waste of time.
#287SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Dontmindme
That said, it might be a good idea to say "These are the optimum enchants:" as you stated above with a brief blurb about the couple that are arguable. I think every rogue had to at one point look up all the enchants and find the good ones. Seems a perfect section to Roguecraft 101. That said, I agree that its unnecessary to mention the poor options just as its unnecessary to mention which are the best green gems.
#288SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Vulajin
There is already a section differentiating between enchants for any slots with two seriously competing choices. Though [Nethercleft Leg Armor] is very nice, no DPS-minded rogue should really have any trouble deciding whether those or [Nethercobra Leg Armor] are superior DPS.
#289SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
tymoney321
So with the changes to expertise, It has come to my understanding that Belt of One-Hundred Deaths will become the best in the game. It happened to drop today and no rogue really wanted it so I was awarded it. My question is, pre-patch is [Belt of One-Hundred Deaths] currently better than [Belt of Deep Shadow]. I know it doesn't matter since 2.3 will change things, but thats not for another couple weeks and I want to maximize my dps for the time being.

Last edited by tymoney321 : 11/05/07 at 5:46 AM.
#290SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Azaziel
Yes the one-hundred deaths is better.
#291SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Drunk
Go for the one hundred deaths, even pre-2.3 it is better and your rogues needs to l2read
#292SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Latito
A Note on the Expertise stuff in regards to -parry.. Nearly every boss out there has some sort of "Cast on a random raid member" ability. Considering the raid is by-and-large behind the boss, the boss will spin around and cast it on the player. During this brief time you WILL be able to parry. Rage and his Ice thing, Anetheron and Infernals + Carrion, Archimonde and Grip + Burst, Teron is always spinning around, etc. While not a huge difference, or even a big effect on your dps.. its probably worth noting. I wouldn't change the value of expertise to be any higher than it is now (10% better than hit).. but its something to remember in the back of your mind I'd think.. for those who like to nit-pick every detail at least :P
#293SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Ricard
Racial effects

I've been following this thread and I hope that this hasn't been mentioned yet, but has anyone considered the human racial in respect to either mace/mace or mace/sword? As I understand it, it's going to add 1% crit chance to hits with maces. Would that make it more valuable? To have that 1% crit in addition to the OH sword procs and the MH crit damage with maces increase?
#294SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3sp00n
Originally Posted by Latito View Post
A Note on the Expertise stuff in regards to -parry.. Nearly every boss out there has some sort of "Cast on a random raid member" ability. Considering the raid is by-and-large behind the boss, the boss will spin around and cast it on the player. During this brief time you WILL be able to parry. Rage and his Ice thing, Anetheron and Infernals + Carrion, Archimonde and Grip + Burst, Teron is always spinning around, etc. While not a huge difference, or even a big effect on your dps.. its probably worth noting. I wouldn't change the value of expertise to be any higher than it is now (10% better than hit).. but its something to remember in the back of your mind I'd think.. for those who like to nit-pick every detail at least :P
In terms of nitpicking, certain casts also prevent the mobs from dodging and parrying.
#295SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Vulajin
Originally Posted by Ricard View Post
I've been following this thread and I hope that this hasn't been mentioned yet, but has anyone considered the human racial in respect to either mace/mace or mace/sword? As I understand it, it's going to add 1% crit chance to hits with maces. Would that make it more valuable? To have that 1% crit in addition to the OH sword procs and the MH crit damage with maces increase?
The human racials also add 1% crit to swords, so the relative difference is probably not going to change much.
#296SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Latito
Originally Posted by sp00n View Post
In terms of nitpicking, certain casts also prevent the mobs from dodging and parrying.
Granted, but I know I see Parry ever now and then on bosses when they spin around... the no dodge/parry while casting, yet I see parries puzzles me..

Its not like I'm standing in front of the boss, I get like 0.2% parry or something on WWS for those bosses and all the melee are similar *shrug*
#297SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Grunge
Originally Posted by Latito View Post
Granted, but I know I see Parry ever now and then on bosses when they spin around... the no dodge/parry while casting, yet I see parries puzzles me..

Its not like I'm standing in front of the boss, I get like 0.2% parry or something on WWS for those bosses and all the melee are similar *shrug*
I think only casted and channeled spells prevent parry? Some bosses have instant abilities (Teron Incinerate, Shadowbolts also I think?), in which they turn and at that short time it's possible to get a parry or two?
#298SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Ricard
Originally Posted by Vulajin View Post
The human racials also add 1% crit to swords, so the relative difference is probably not going to change much.
Aye, but I was referring to the difference between maces/swords and fists/swords. Seeing as maces gets 1% chance to crit as well as 5% increased crit damage, whereas fists only get 5% increased chance to crit.
#299SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Busko
Hi i was checking out the post real nice ^^ learn something new each day .

But i was wondering what is your thought on armor penetration stuff.
#300SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Lavery
There's a point for point comparison of Armor Penetration to other stats in the first post.
#301SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3ake
Originally Posted by Vulajin View Post
Originally Posted by ake
Has anyone done any research as to whether Mace/Sword in 2.3 will be as viable as Fist/Sword is today? It just seems that it might be a reasonable pve/pvp hybrid if it works out.
Answers to both of these questions are in the first post under "Preliminary 2.3 Information."
I was looking for something a little more in depth than:
"The effects of these two changes bring maces and daggers roughly up to the level of fists for DPS (that is, about 2-3% behind swords; however, note that daggers will still lag further behind on fights where Murder is effective). In addition, mace/sword builds increase in DPS, such that the top DPS builds will likely be sword/sword ~ fist/sword > mace/sword."

I had in fact read "Preliminary 2.3 Information".
#302SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Fold
Perhaps you should ask some more specific questions then. What does "as viable" mean? If you're asking specifically about the change to Mace Specialization which gives +5% damage to crits, the answer is that Fist with inherent crit, not a lethality type bonus, is still higher DPS. What does "reasonable hybrid" mean? I think you'll find that most posters and information here are dedicated to min/maxing, or at least the theorycraft behind min/maxing. A hybrid PVE/PVP build is pretty subjective.
#303SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Lavery
Ake, you ask if it will be "as viable" as fist/sword, and then you quote the answer. In the context of PvE raiding, no, it does not look to be as viable. Where's the confusion, here?

[e] Fold beat me here by a good deal. Woops.
#304SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Squirl
hit v. haste

would haste and hit have the same affect...

Here's some that may or may not be accurate...

mob hp = 10000, mob dodge = 5%, dmg per hit = 100, atk speed = 1.0 (weird stats for the sake of simplicity)

no +hit/haste- ((10000[hp]/100[dmg])*1.05[dodge]) = 105[hits to mob death]

+ 1% hit- ((10000/100)*(1.05-.01[hit]) = 104

+1% haste- ((10000/100)*1.05)*(1.0/1.01[haste]) = 104 (rounded, did I do something wrong here?)

Last edited by Squirl : 11/08/07 at 2:00 AM.
#305SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Ricard
Originally Posted by Squirl View Post
would haste and hit have the same affect...

Here's some that may or may not be accurate...

mob hp = 10000, mob dodge = 5%, dmg per hit = 100, atk speed = 1.0 (weird stats for the sake of simplicity)

no +hit/haste- ((10000[hp]/100[dmg])*1.05[dodge]) = 105[hits to mob death]

+ 1% hit- ((10000/100)*(1.05-.01[hit]) = 104

+1% haste- ((10000/100)*1.05)*(1.0/1.01[haste]) = 104 (rounded, did I do something wrong here?)
Well, for one, + hit % doesn't lower dodge chance. So, it wouldn't subtract from the 5% dodge that you say this enemy has. Expertise will do that. +hit decreases your miss chance, which is talked about at the beginning of this thread.
#306SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3madman
I have a couple of questions. I am combat dagger specced, and without BoK AP is worth a bit more than Agility (1.96). When we raid, we don't always have 3 pallys, some times only two. So it boils down to this. You say that Salvation > BoM > BoK. Is that still the case for dagger rogues? If we only have two pallies, I tend to currently ask for Salv and BoM, but them I'm getting diminishing returns from the Agility compared to AP.

Since the hit cap will be raised in 2.3, it is my understanding that stacking hit upwards to 363 will be the thing to do. If the stat values will not change in 2.3, I presume 343 will be the new cap to work towards, as the 20hit food will be the best food buff? So just to be safe, I wonder will the values assigned to the difference stats stay the same in the upcoming patch?
#307SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3madman
Originally Posted by Vulajin View Post
Zul'Aman itself provides the following items: [Grimgrin Faceguard] is roughly on par with [Netherblade Facemask] due to the lack of a meta gem socket.
Looking at those stats, I can not understand why it would be on par with the Netherblade headpiece. To me, most of the stats on the Grimgrim look better, and it has 3 gem slots which should also make up for the red+meta on the Netherblade. So unless you are losing the set bonus, the Grimgrin seem like an upgrade to me.
#308SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Katherine
Quite simple, Grimgrin lacks the meta socket.
#309SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Foxx2405
Im just wondering some stuff here.
Im not a rogue myself, im an enhancement shaman, but in regard to hit and crit rating

For shamans hit rating doesnt have a huge value, since once you cross the 9% hit, you are hitcapped on your special attacks for bosses...

A enhancement shamans dps chart looks pretty much this way:
50% White attacks
30% Windfury
10% Stormstrike
10% Shocks

That means if i invest into hit when i have more then 9% (we get 9% from talents, so that starts right away), im only improving the 50% part of my dps....whereas crit for example increases dmg for 90% of my attacks

----

Now ive been looking at rogues that way, and ive seen several different values for this

Some sites say that rogue hit is equal to crit, until a rogue gets to 9% hit (special attack cap) and then crit becomes slightly better

But when i see the values in this topic hit is vastly vastly superior

Now i know rogues have a lot of abilities (restore energy on hit / poisons) which require you to hit the enemy, but do those way up against the fact that with hit you boost a smaller portion of your dps then crit for example does...
#310SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Cos-
Originally Posted by Foxx2405 View Post
Im just wondering some stuff here.
Im not a rogue myself, im an enhancement shaman, but in regard to hit and crit rating

For shamans hit rating doesnt have a huge value, since once you cross the 9% hit, you are hitcapped on your special attacks for bosses...

A enhancement shamans dps chart looks pretty much this way:
50% White attacks
30% Windfury
10% Stormstrike
10% Shocks

That means if i invest into hit when i have more then 9% (we get 9% from talents, so that starts right away), im only improving the 50% part of my dps....whereas crit for example increases dmg for 90% of my attacks

----

Now ive been looking at rogues that way, and ive seen several different values for this

Some sites say that rogue hit is equal to crit, until a rogue gets to 9% hit (special attack cap) and then crit becomes slightly better

But when i see the values in this topic hit is vastly vastly superior

Now i know rogues have a lot of abilities (restore energy on hit / poisons) which require you to hit the enemy, but do those way up against the fact that with hit you boost a smaller portion of your dps then crit for example does...
1% crit is more item budget then 1% hit, rogue white damage is 60%+ usually, and combat potency/sword spec/poison/anything that is ON HIT benefits from hit rating so it isn't simple more auto attack damage. Go look at the first post, hit and crit aren't that far off in the AEP thingy.
#311SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Bluefish
RE: Mutilate

I've been trying out 41/20 Mutilate for the last week in anticipation of the patch. Its DPS is certainly lower than Combat Swords but I've been pleasantly surprised by how close the two are. Here's some WWS reports for you. Supremecy is Fist/Sword with Al'ar fist / merc sword, Zinterax is Swords with Merc MH, Glad OH. I'm mainhanding Malchazeen and offhanding Gladiator's Shiv. In all cases we were in the same group and (I think) used the same consumables.

617k vs. 689k (89%)
Tidewalker (I swigged one haste pot)

353k vs. 400k (88%)
Lurker

307k vs. 277k (110%)
Leotheras

326k vs. 346k (94%)
Karathress I was on the Priest, he stomped totems

338k vs. 363k (93%)
Al'ar

306k vs. 270k (88%)
Solarian

On Void Reaver I did 700 DPS. >__<

My personal conclusion from these numbers is that given equal gear, PvE experience with the build, 115% speed Fleet Footed, and some good theorycrafting for Mutilate, a 41/20 Rogue on poisonable mobs can probably do 95% of a Sword Rogue's damage. From that point it becomes a matter of opinion whether Quick Recovery closes the gap.

I used the following priority queue:
Always keep Slice and Dice up
Always Mutilate / Rupture / Eviscerate during Find Weakness
Rupture > Evisc
#312SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Cluey
Originally Posted by Foxx2405 View Post
stuff
Honestly you would be better off reading the first post in the enhance shaman thread and then asking in there if it doesn't answer your questions.
The first post is updated frequently so it is unlikely that you would need to ask anything so read and learn
Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I
#313SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Foxx2405
Originally Posted by Cluey View Post
Honestly you would be better off reading the first post in the enhance shaman thread and then asking in there if it doesn't answer your questions.
The first post is updated frequently so it is unlikely that you would need to ask anything so read and learn
Enhance Shaman: The Collected Works of Theorycraft, Vol I
I know it inside out, but it doenst handle rogues... im wondering about rogues not shamans :P

---------

1% crit is more item budget then 1% hit, rogue white damage is 60%+ usually, and combat potency/sword spec/poison/anything that is ON HIT benefits from hit rating so it isn't simple more auto attack damage. Go look at the first post, hit and crit aren't that far off in the AEP thingy.
Ok thanks...Thats exactly what i was wondering..

The first page show that hit has quite a higher value (2.34 vs 1.74 for combat swords), but i read that part includes all ablities which have on hit procs
#314SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Faytte
Originally Posted by Bluefish View Post
I've been trying out 41/20 Mutilate for the last week in anticipation of the patch. I
Query. You said 41/20 in anticipation of the patch? Have I missed something regarding 41/20 in regards to the patch notes?
#315SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Latito
Just to clarify a few things about hit/crit values..

1% Crit > 1% Hit
1 hit RATING > 1 crit RATING

Thus, due to hit and crit rating being equal in the developers eyes for itemization, items with hit rating tend to be better.

This is due largely to 2 factors:
-Several powerful procs which only occur on a successful melee attack (hit OR crit, not miss)
-High amount of white damage (affected equally by hit and crit)

A typical rogue will be somewhere around 65% white damage, 25% SS, 6% rupture, 4% deadly poison. This makes for 65% damage which is affected equally by hit and crit, 25% just by crit and 4% just by hit (keeping DP stack up.. although not really a big issue).

This may seem like crit would be worth more (25% > 4%, right?) but due to so many procs that a rogue depends on (Combat Potency, DST, Mongoose, Poisons, etc) which are very powerful, hit edges out crit.. per RATING. Yes, 22 crit rating > 15.7 hit rating... but rating point for rating point, hit is better.

Using the values quoted above:
2.34 apEP * 15.7 rating per hit = 36.74 apEP per 1% hit
1.74 apEP * 22.1 rating per crit = 38.45 apEP per 1% crit
#316SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Cos-
Originally Posted by Faytte View Post
Query. You said 41/20 in anticipation of the patch? Have I missed something regarding 41/20 in regards to the patch notes?
Best I can figure they think it'll be fun to run around with 115% speed and want to see if the damage can be competitive.

I went and tested 41/20/0 up to Gorefiend with Boundless Agony/S2 shiv and it performed a solid 200 (12-14%) dps worse then BoI/s2quickblade in the same situations. I chalk some of that up to general mutilate newbness but honestly and all things considered unless you are stuck waiting for drops and daggers are coming out your ears mutilate isn't competitive.
#317SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Mideci
I'm always very suspicious of "I did this with this build and gear, he did that with this build and gear." The spreadsheets do a tremendous job of teling you what your dps will be hitting targets.

Mutilate is less good it appears mathematically. With a skilled player in a guild that doesn't min max, it won't be so much less good that they throw you out of the raid. If the multilate rogue is more consistently on point than the combat rogue, he might win the meters. But it doesn't mean mutilate is actually a good choice if you are seeking damage maximization purely and simply.

And yet if that's the way you want to play, you ought to. It's a game.
#318SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Bluefish
Originally Posted by Mideci View Post
I'm always very suspicious of "I did this with this build and gear, he did that with this build and gear." The spreadsheets do a tremendous job of teling you what your dps will be hitting targets.
And I'm very skeptical of the spreadsheet's modeling of Mutilate, thus the acquisition of hard data to support or refute it. There is reams and reams of data on Combat specs, but hardly any on Mutilate, and very little empirical testing as well.

Originally Posted by Cos-
I went and tested 41/20/0 up to Gorefiend with Boundless Agony/S2 shiv and it performed a solid 200 (12-14%) dps worse then BoI/s2quickblade in the same situations.
This sort of stuff doesn't count; the truth is that nobody really knows how to raid with Mutilate. Is double Deadly + Envenom better than WF or Instant + Deadly + Eviscerate? At 3 CPs with 5 seconds on Find Weakness and 10+ seconds on Slice and Dice, should I Muti->Rupture or Rupture->Muti->some other finisher? What's the best gem for a yellow slot with a 4 agi bonus? 3 agi? 3 hit rating?

Stories of "Well I spec'd Muti for a day and it didn't beat Combat" are just that, stories -- they are not hard data. As far as I know there isn't a decent Mutilate sheet or simulator in existence; nobody even knows what balance of stats a Mutilate Rogue should be looking for. Yes, it is true that it's doing less damage than Combat right now, but that may be due to a lack of information, not due to a straight-out inferiority. I wouldn't dismiss it so easily
#319SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Cyn
If you think mutilate is going to suddenly gain 200dps from minor play adjustments, you are sorely mistaken. Sure it's hard to play "technically perfect", but most people that have played it for any considerable time aren't far off.

I raided as mutilate all the way from Attumen to Teron (fang of Vashj/s2 shanker), then switched to combat swords (double s2). The DPS jump was considerable, 3hit vs 3agi, 1 second of snd overlap in certain scenarios will not account for this. Mutilate isn't terrible, it's a decent all round spec, but combat is simply superior for pve damage, no adjustment to gear or strategy will change that.
#320SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Squirl
Originally Posted by Squirl View Post
would haste and hit have the same affect...

Here's some that may or may not be accurate...

mob hp = 10000, mob dodge = 5%, dmg per hit = 100, atk speed = 1.0 (weird stats for the sake of simplicity)

no +hit/haste- ((10000[hp]/100[dmg])*1.05[dodge]) = 105[hits to mob death]

+ 1% hit- ((10000/100)*(1.05-.01[hit]) = 104

+1% haste- ((10000/100)*1.05)*(1.0/1.01[haste]) = 104 (rounded, did I do something wrong here?)
Sooo, anyone have an answer to hit vs. haste? The reason I ask is because I saw that a lot of the ZA drops/2.3 badge rewards have haste, not hit, and with 2.3 a few days away (scheduled for 13th), I'd like to know what to spend my badges on.

Any info would be appreciated.

Last edited by Squirl : 11/08/07 at 7:17 PM.
#321SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Vulajin
Originally Posted by Squirl View Post
Sooo... anyone have an answer to hit vs. haste? The reason I ask is because I saw that a lot of the ZA drops/2.3 badge rewards have haste, and not hit, and with 2.3 a few days away (scheduled for 13th), I'd like to know what to spend my badges on...
There are EP values for all stats in the first post, and the 2.3 information section compares the new items to existing ones. I'm not sure what more you could ask for. A list of every item you could conceivably get? Google "Shadowpanther" and you'll find one.
#322SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Aldriana
Originally Posted by Cyn View Post
If you think mutilate is going to suddenly gain 200dps from minor play adjustments, you are sorely mistaken. Sure it's hard to play "technically perfect", but most people that have played it for any considerable time aren't far off.
While 200 DPS would indeed be an impressive increase, I'm not sure I'd totally dismiss it as out of hand. The single largest determiner of rogue DPS is the skill of the player. I've seen rogues in blues and greens outDPS rogues in full epics with an identical spec. Ones ability to play a spec *can* make 200 DPS difference.

Now, if we're assuming that the Mutilate rogue in question a) is reasonably competent, b) has been playing the spec for a while, and thus c) generally is playing the spec pretty well, it would be pretty surprising to gain 200 DPS from that point. I'm not going to say impossible, but definitely unlikely

That said, your underlying point - that Mutilate, while it can get reasonably close to combat, tends to run somewhat behind - is totally true, and I have no complaints with. I'm just observing that the anecdotal difference between Mutilate and Combat is probably more strongly colored by the relative skill of the players involved than it is by the underlying supremacy of combat.
#323SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Squirl
Originally Posted by Vulajin View Post
There are EP values for all stats in the first post, and the 2.3 information section compares the new items to existing ones. I'm not sure what more you could ask for. A list of every item you could conceivably get? Google "Shadowpanther" and you'll find one.
Thats not exactly what I'm asking, what I'm asking is: does haste have the same effect as hit, which is landing more blows on your enemy and getting CP to pop more often.
#324SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Aldriana
Haste and Hit both generate more white hits. However, they do so in different amounts, and have significant other effects on rogue mechanics; for instance, hit will increase the number of PPM procs you get (Mongoose, Dragonspine, etc.) while Haste does not. So while their effects are somewhat similar, there are some pretty important differences as well.
#325SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Squirl
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
Haste and Hit both generate more white hits. However, they do so in different amounts, and have significant other effects on rogue mechanics; for instance, hit will increase the number of PPM procs you get (Mongoose, Dragonspine, etc.) while Haste does not. So while their effects are somewhat similar, there are some pretty important differences as well.
That's exactly the kind of info I was looking for, many thanks!
#326SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Cyn
I totally agree aswell Aldriana, the difference between a bad mutilate rogue and a good mutilate rogue is huge. When the same rogue who can allready play both combat and mutilate well sees a large dps increase, it comes down to the inferiority of the spec. Which is a disappointment, because there are so many awesome mutilate daggers in T6, and the spec is so fun.
#327SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Bluefish
Originally Posted by Cyn View Post
it comes down to the inferiority of [Mutilate].
No one has proven the inferiority of Mutilate. All we have is anecdotal evidence from people playing the build in a way that "feels" right. I'm sure many BM Hunters would tell you that it "feels" better to pewpew with Illidan's bow than with a Wolfslayer Sniper Rifle. I'm sure many Enhancement Shaman would tell you it "feels" better to off-hand a 91 DPS 1.4-speed weapon than a 71 DPS 2.6-speed weapon. Some Resto Druids feel that they are ideal raid healers, some guilds feel Curse of Recklessness will cause your tank to take additional damage, some Paladins feel that Devotion Aura is overrated. The purpose of these boards is to separate these feelings from fact.

I am working on a true Mutilate model -- it's coming along slowly, but when it's done, if the math says that Mutilate is inferior to Combat, okay, fine! No big deal. But until then, lets not assume that speculation, conjecture, anecdotes, and personal feelings are substitutes for facts.
#328SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Nakkato
I was just wondering if anybody had the numbers on rating to percentage. I saw that hit rating was mentioned in the OP but none of the others. "It takes approximately 15.77 hit rating to gain 1% chance to hit." What are the numbers for crit, dodge, etc.? TIA
#329SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Katherine
Originally Posted by Nakkato View Post
I was just wondering if anybody had the numbers on rating to percentage. I saw that hit rating was mentioned in the OP but none of the others. "It takes approximately 15.77 hit rating to gain 1% chance to hit." What are the numbers for crit, dodge, etc.? TIA
Combat rating system - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft
#330SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Metho
Originally Posted by Vulajin View Post
New OH Fist drop in ZA (2.3) : [Fury]
So with is 2.6 speed, very nice OH for Hemo spec
#331SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3hannigaholic
Originally Posted by Metho View Post
New OH Fist drop in ZA (2.3) : [Fury]
So with is 2.6 speed, very nice OH for Hemo spec
Hemo rogues still prefer fast offhands, assuming comparable base dps and stats) for poison procs (and personally for Sword Spec procs).

Since the mainhand is also 2.6-speed the ZA offhand is better for fury warriors, because they may get 4 hasted hits instead of just 3 when flurry procs if their MH and OH are the same speed (or at least so I read on the [Melee Combat] How does Flurry work? thread).
#332SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3pindle
The big problem with mutilate is the dmg we lose on poison immune mobs, other than that, it's quite a viable raidspec. Not as good as combat, but not that far behind, at least on my gear lvl. If Blizz would just remove the crappy "enemy needs to be poisoned" limitation and made it something like "requires poison on weapon" they would make my day.

Unless they do that, daggers are going to played less and less...
#333SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Chestrcheeto
Forgive me if this has been shown elsewhere in the thread, but has there been talk of rotations and gemming for the new proposed Hemo builds in 2.3?
I'm assuming that hit rating is the number one stat to go for as well as a 1s/5r rotation because of the cheaper cost of Hemo. I could be wrong though as I've not had any experience raiding with Hemo.
I'm also asking this assuming (perhaps I'm being too presumptuous?) that sword spec is being taken for such a build.

Last edited by Chestrcheeto : 11/09/07 at 10:58 AM.
#334SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Katherine
Chestrcheeto due to lacking Combat Potency you will rather use 5s5r cycles. For 11/28/22 no re-gemming is needed, 11/20/30 suggests gemming heavier into agility than hit.
#335SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3weirdaljr
So, I apologize if this was posted, as I have scanned every page of the thread and have not found a answer. Has anyone gone on the PTR to test hemo builds vs standard 19/42 type of combat swords? Any info that is better for personal dps compared to raid dps? I am really interested to know if anyone has put the math to the test to see if a same gear hemo has more personal DPS then a combat sword.. assuming the overall raid dps would increase with hemo already.
#336SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Cluey
Originally Posted by weirdaljr View Post
So, I apologize if this was posted, as I have scanned every page of the thread and have not found a answer. Has anyone gone on the PTR to test hemo builds vs standard 19/42 type of combat swords? Any info that is better for personal dps compared to raid dps? I am really interested to know if anyone has put the math to the test to see if a same gear hemo has more personal DPS then a combat sword.. assuming the overall raid dps would increase with hemo already.
Try using the search feature.
I clicked on the search link at the top there and typed in "hemo", chose "search titles only" and to look in the Class mechanics forums.

I know its almost like rocket science.

#337SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Shadowlin
I've attempted to locate concrete information on the dodge rate of lvl 73 bosses (or average if the dodge rate differs from boss to boss), which would be useful in determining the expertise cap, if it's even obtainable with the limited selection of currently available gear with expertise. I have not been able to locate this information.

If getting close or exceeding the expertise cap is practical, it would reduce the finishing moves anti-dodge value of Suprise Attacks tremendously.

Regardless if the cap is obtainable, Surprise Attacks has lost some of it's value with the introduction of 2.3, but I am ultimately curious as to how much and if by a large margin then should we be looking to see the talent altered?
#338SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Cos-
Originally Posted by pindle View Post
The big problem with mutilate is the dmg we lose on poison immune mobs, other than that, it's quite a viable raidspec. Not as good as combat, but not that far behind, at least on my gear lvl. If Blizz would just remove the crappy "enemy needs to be poisoned" limitation and made it something like "requires poison on weapon" they would make my day.

Unless they do that, daggers are going to played less and less...
There are 2(?) raid bosses past karazahn that can't be poisoned. I'm not sure that is really an issue for the spec.
#339SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Aldriana
The principal value of Surprise Attacks was never the fact that it made finishers undodgeable. The DPS benefit of the talent is almost entirely due to the +10% damage to specials it provides.

Consider: for a finisher costing 25 energy, a 5% (or so) chance to be dodged means that 5% of the time, you'll need to spend an extra 25 energy. When you add this up, this means your SnD effectively costs an extra 1.3 energy or so. Now, SnD isn't dodgeable in the first place, so we're basically just talking about dodged Ruptures. With, say, a 3s5r cycle, you're thus gaining an extra 1.3 energy every 22 seconds, or about 1 energy every 17 seconds. Note that natural regen in this period is roughly 220 energy; hence Surprise Attacks basically increases your energy regen by about half a percent, and thus boosts your yellow damage by roughly half a percent.

The other aspect of the talent boosts your yellow damage by 10%. Thus, the benefit granted by Surprise Attacks is about 95% due to the damage increase and only 5% due to the undodgeability. Hence, even if you could become passively undodgeable with Expertise (which, frankly, would be pretty hard to do and probably not worth trying for)... Surprise Attacks would not be significantly less good than it is now.
#340SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Notter
T5 leggings Vs shady dealer's pantaloons

ermm, thought i could get some help here.

the story goes like this... i currently use [Deathmantle Legguards] (with [Shifting Nightseye]) and in the latest MH raid i got force to loot [Shady Dealer's Pantaloons]

shady dealer's advantage is 11 more AP and 62 more HP.
plus 175 armor penetration.

and the disadvantages are a lose of 1.20% crit

in my opinion, a lose of 1.20% crit is quite a big lose, and it's not worth losing it for the armor penetration.
but since i'm not too learned in theory crafting, i'd be grateful if someone could supply me with some facts on what's better.
#341SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Cos-
Originally Posted by Notter View Post
ermm, thought i could get some help here.

the story goes like this... i currently use [Deathmantle Legguards] and in the latest MH raid i got force to loot [Shady Dealer's Pantaloons]

shady dealer's advantage is 11 more AP and 62 more HP.
plus 175 armor penetration.

and the disadvantages are a lose of 1.20% crit

in my opinion, a lose of 1.20% crit is quite a big lose, and it's not worth losing it for the armor penetration.
but since i'm not too learned in theory crafting, i'd be grateful if someone could supply me with some facts on what's better.
You can go to the first post in this thread to where the equivalency table is and see that 1.2% crit is worth in the area of 47 ap versus 11ap and the 47 ap equiv in armor pen shady dealers have. Shady pantaloons are a tiny up over t5 and by that a dissapointingly tiny up over skulkers when gemmed with all hit :P.
#342SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3tedv
Originally Posted by Cos- View Post
You can go to the first post in this thread to where the equivalency table is and see that 1.2% crit is worth in the area of 47 ap versus 11ap and the 47 ap equiv in armor pen shady dealers have. Shady pantaloons are a tiny up over t5 and by that a dissapointingly tiny up over skulkers when gemmed with all hit :P.
So you'd consider that a downgrade if you broke 4 piece T5 to get it?
#343SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Notter
i got only 3 pieces of T5, so i don't break a set bonus.

anyway, so you're saying this is a bit better then what i have?
seems a bit awkward to me :x
thing is a use mostly evis for my finishers, and i'm afried less crit will reduce their efficiency.
#344SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Cos-
Originally Posted by tedv View Post
So you'd consider that a downgrade if you broke 4 piece T5 to get it?
If you're going to break 4pc t5 you should do it for more then the ~11 ap upgrade t5->shady is.
#345SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Cos-
Originally Posted by Notter View Post
i got only 3 pieces of T5, so i don't break a set bonus.

anyway, so you're saying this is a bit better then what i have?
seems a bit awkward to me :x
thing is a use mostly evis for my finishers, and i'm afried less crit will reduce their efficiency.
You really really really want to read the first post of this thread. It does a good job of explaining why your love of evis is unrequited and not worth worrying about. The efficiency of evis is already shot :P


Edit: Here's the quote from p1

"On Eviscerate: at nearly all reachable levels of gear, Rupture will be superior to Eviscerate on any target that isn't immune to bleeds. At 5 CP, Rupture deals 1000 damage plus 24% of your AP for 25 energy, or 40 damage plus 0.96% of your AP per energy. At 5 CP and with T5 2pc, Eviscerate deals 1245 damage plus 15% of your AP for 35 energy, or roughly 35.57 damage plus 0.43% of your AP per energy. Applying 3/3 Improved Eviscerate and 3/3 Aggression (121% modifier), 40% crit and RED (142.4% modifier), and 30% armor reduction (assuming a typical debuffed raid boss), Eviscerate comes to 42.90 damage plus 0.52% of your AP per energy. Thus, Eviscerate holds an advantage of 2.90 base damage per energy, but Rupture gains an additional 0.44% of your AP. At this rate, it takes only 656 AP for Rupture to overcome Eviscerate's base advantage. Simply, in any situation where you can Rupture, you should Rupture."
#346SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Aldriana
Originally Posted by tedv View Post
So you'd consider that a downgrade if you broke 4 piece T5 to get it?
Defenitely. 4pc T5 is actually pretty good; as a general rule it doesn't make sense to break it until you can get 2pc T6.

Originally Posted by Notter View Post
anyway, so you're saying this is a bit better then what i have?
seems a bit awkward to me :x
thing is a use mostly evis for my finishers, and i'm afried less crit will reduce their efficiency.
Well, the first question would be "why are you mostly using Evis, anyway?". But moving past that for the moment...

1) Evis gains damage from Armor Penetration as well; hence, while it may lose *some* damage from the loss of crit, it's not going to be an overwhelming amount.

2) Evis is only, what, 5% of your damage output anyway? So even if it does effect you Evis damage a bit, it's not that big a deal.

3) Fundamentally, what you want to do is maximize *total* DPS output, not DPS from any one move. The conversion factors in the first post are designed to estimate this, and by those estimates you will do more damage than with T5. So if you're looking to maximize DPS, and you're not breaking 4/5 to wear them, you should wear them. It's really just that simple.
#347SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3royaljester
Are Glinting Pyrestones/Rigid Lionseye for [Skulker's Greaves] worth it if I'm in a position in BT/Hyjal where I won't be able to get anything but the Shady Dealer Pantaloons (bleh!) and T6 will be a good month or two off, even if it drops every week. (I'll be far back in the drop status)
#348SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3hannigaholic
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
Hence, even if you could become passively undodgeable with Expertise (which, frankly, would be pretty hard to do and probably not worth trying for)... Surprise Attacks would not be significantly less good than it is now.
I agree with most of what you're saying with regard to where the benefit from the Surprise Attacks talent comes from, and its relative value with regard to dodged finishers.

But to claim that it's difficult to reach or come close to the dodge cap through gear is misleading. Take 3 items; [Shoulderpads of the Stranger], [Gloves of the Searing Grip] and [Belt of One-Hundred Deaths]. Together they will give 53 Expertise Rating in 2.3, which becomes 13 Expertise. Add in the 10 from the Weapon Expertise tlent and you have 23 Expertise, which gives you a 5.75% lower chance to be dodged, on all attacks. Humans wielding swords or maces get an extra 1.25% (5 Expertise). That's up to 7% dodge negation from 3 items, a talent and a racial.

I know that the dodge cap itself is yet to be determined but it's thought to be roughly 6.5% against a level 73 mob (as stated in the first post of this thread). If that's right then it's certainly possible to achieve for some, and to get very close for others. The items in question are hardly unnatatinable either; the shoulders come from Hydross, the gloves from Al'ar and the belt from Vashj.
#349SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Cos-
Originally Posted by royaljester View Post
Are Glinting Pyrestones/Rigid Lionseye for [Skulker's Greaves] worth it if I'm in a position in BT/Hyjal where I won't be able to get anything but the Shady Dealer Pantaloons (bleh!) and T6 will be a good month or two off, even if it drops every week. (I'll be far back in the drop status)
Just use the table in the first post, this thread is here for people to use to help themselves. Please :P

if you put 3 10 hit gems in skulkers you get:
58 hit rating = 135.72
32 agi = 64 ap
64 ap = 64 ap

263.72

Shady dealers are:
50 agi = 100 ap
102 ap = 102 ap
-175 armor = 47.25

249.25

Going from rigid dawnstones to rigid lions eye is something like 14.04 ap so I was wrong in an earlier post. According to the numbers in the beginning of this thread, skulkers are superior til t6 by about .43 ap. With blue gems in Skulker's and t6 legs as your first piece of t6, Slayer's would only be about a 38 ap upgrade.

This doesn't take into account any sort of optimal hit rating or set bonus though.

Last edited by Cos- : 11/09/07 at 3:36 PM.
#350SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Aldriana
I think that's fundamentally a question of what your guild's policy on epic gems is. My guild generally only gives them out for T6 and best-in-slot gear; as such, it would not be possible to get them for something like Skulker's Greaves. However, if your guild is less stingy with them, it may make sense.
#351SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Aldriana
Originally Posted by hannigaholic View Post
I agree with most of what you're saying with regard to where the benefit from the Surprise Attacks talent comes from, and its relative value with regard to dodged finishers.

But to claim that it's difficult to reach or come close to the dodge cap through gear is misleading. Take 3 items; [Shoulderpads of the Stranger], [Gloves of the Searing Grip] and [Belt of One-Hundred Deaths]. Together they will give 53 Expertise Rating in 2.3, which becomes 13 Expertise. Add in the 10 from the Weapon Expertise tlent and you have 23 Expertise, which gives you a 5.75% lower chance to be dodged, on all attacks. Humans wielding swords or maces get an extra 1.25% (5 Expertise). That's up to 7% dodge negation from 3 items, a talent and a racial.

I know that the dodge cap itself is yet to be determined but it's thought to be roughly 6.5% against a level 73 mob (as stated in the first post of this thread). If that's right then it's certainly possible to achieve for some, and to get very close for others. The items in question are hardly unnatatinable either; the shoulders come from Hydross, the gloves from Al'ar and the belt from Vashj.
You're right. I was speaking from the perspective of a Night Elf without the benefit of an expertise racial, which means that, assuming that the base dodge rate is 6.5% (which seems like a reasonable guess), I would need 64 expertise to cap out, which is indeed challenging to obtain. Particularly since not all the items with Expertise on them are actually good; while the items you suggest do give a fair amount of Expertise, there tends not to be a lot of motivation to wear Gloves of the Searing Grip in practice, as they're inferior to Deathmantle for most purposes and, as such, are unlikely to be worn for very long (in particular, if you've done SSC/TK long enough to have the shoulders, the belt *and* the glove, you're about 95% likely to have picked up a pair of T5 gloves in the meantime).

So yes, as a human, you *can* reach the Expertise cap (although doing so is not necessarily advisable); as other races, it's somewhat harder, and even more questionable in it's merits.
#352SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3royaljester
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
I think that's fundamentally a question of what your guild's policy on epic gems is. My guild generally only gives them out for T6 and best-in-slot gear; as such, it would not be possible to get them for something like Skulker's Greaves. However, if your guild is less stingy with them, it may make sense.
That's kind of what I was asking. You look at several peices of gear withing BT/Hyjal and you can get upgrades from the later, harder bosses. As that is, shouldn't you have the best gems/enchants possible for your current gear to defeat the later bosses? In this case, the guild doesnt need me to perform to my peak ability gear-wise every week, they ahve the bosses on farm. As for their policy on gems, not sure. My question was mainly at how others feel about it. With the 10hit gems (mainly used for 10 spell crit on pallies and 10 resilience lol) I could upgrade my stats with a good 18hit rating taht would last me till t6 legs, probably not coming my way for a while.

Maybe I'll just go ghetto farm gems with some of the guys and ask for 3 lionseye as my share of the gems/money. Inherently, is there anything wrong, does it seem like "a waste of epic gems" if I'll be keeping them for a month or more at the very least?
#353SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3royaljester
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
So yes, as a human, you *can* reach the Expertise cap (although doing so is not necessarily advisable); as other races, it's somewhat harder, and even more questionable in it's merits.

Mmk, speaking of...

What kind/type of testing would we need to figure out a boss's base dodge/parry rates?

If it's possible, we should get some testing going. I'd def take some parses of my combat logs in BT/Hyjal instances if it would help out.
#354SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3hannigaholic
Well, even for a Night Elf, a 5.75% (including the 2.5% from Weapon Expertise) lower chance to be dodged can be achieved, which is great.

With regard to the gear, the Shoulderpads of the Stranger are actually better than the Deathmantle Shoulderpads (at least in patch 2.3, they're extremely close in 2.2) and the 2 pairs of gloves are so very close to each other that you may as well just take whichever you get first, unless replacing the Searing Grip gloves will net you the 4-piece Deathmantle bonus. That would be the only reason to make a point of taking Deathmantle pieces over the non-tier items.

If you're operating at tier 6 level, however, then obviously it would be foolish to not upgrade to the tier 6 equivalents, just for the sake of reaching the Expertise cap.

If Blizzard ever decide to include Rupture in the Deathmantle 2-piece bonus, however, then the Deathmantle pieces will be the clear best-in-slot items at tier 5 level.

--edit--

With regard to testing dodge rates I think the best we can do is something similar to the way the hit caps were tested. Get somebody with all the Expertise gear they can get (preferably including some human and some non-human characters) and see if they can ever record a long test without a dodge showing up (let's say against Venoxis). Slowly take away gear and talent points until you see a dodge. It's not the most accurate test in the world but it at least gives a minimum baseline for base dodge rates.

It's certainly better than simply seeing how many times you were dodged in a particular bossfight, since that could vary for any number of reasons, not the least of which is pure dumb luck.
#355SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Dontmindme
Originally Posted by royaljester View Post
Mmk, speaking of...

What kind/type of testing would we need to figure out a boss's base dodge/parry rates?

If it's possible, we should get some testing going. I'd def take some parses of my combat logs in BT/Hyjal instances if it would help out.
Well, getting your Expertise rating into the 20's and fighting 73 bosses would be the way to go to test dodge. Parry will be harder, as it is thought to be much higher and gear can't get you to the 52 Expertise you might need to really narrow it down.

If you believe that 26 Expertise is the number you need (for 6.5% dodge):
Test as follows:
1) Equip gear to 25 Expertise until a boss dodges you, maybe a couple times to be sure. This will prove that the dodge rate is greater than 6.25%.

2) Equip gear to 26 Expertise and get as many reps in vs. 73 bosses showing that you never get a dodge.

3) With enough repetitions, this would prove the dodge rate to be between 6.25% and 6.5%, given that 6.5% makes a lot of theoretical sense, many would probably say its proven. You could follow up with a lot of reps at 25 Expertise trying to show that the observed dodge rate still appears to be about 0.25% at that level.

Now, we don't know that 6.5% is really the number, so depending on your results, you would add more Expertise if you are still experiencing dodges, and reduce your Expertise if you have a lot of reps with no dodges, until you are confident how much Expertise it takes.

And, I am speaking actual Expertise (not Expertise rating).
#356SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Vulajin
I will be modifying the first post sometime in the near future to reflect all of the patch 2.3 information. The "Preliminary 2.3 Information" section will be removed. Note, we still don't have any solid information on the proc rate of Executioner, unless I have missed something in the other thread. As such I cannot make an informed recommendation on whether to use it or not. Nearly everything else about the patch has been pretty well uncovered.

If anyone has any information they'd like to add that isn't covered in the "Preliminary 2.3 Information" section yet, please post here.
#357SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Dontmindme
Originally Posted by hannigaholic View Post
With regard to testing dodge rates I think the best we can do is something similar to the way the hit caps were tested. Get somebody with all the Expertise gear they can get (preferably including some human and some non-human characters) and see if they can ever record a long test without a dodge showing up (let's say against Venoxis). Slowly take away gear and talent points until you see a dodge. It's not the most accurate test in the world but it at least gives a minimum baseline for base dodge rates.

It's certainly better than simply seeing how many times you were dodged in a particular bossfight, since that could vary for any number of reasons, not the least of which is pure dumb luck.
Right idea, but it's actually much better to work up by increasing your Expertise while still getting dodges. This is because a single dodge proves you do not have enough Expertise (and hence that the dodge cap is higher) but no amount of repetitions without a dodge "proves" that one will never happen.
#358SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Shaker
Vul, one thing missing from the prelim 2.3 information is a blurb about the trinket off of Zul'jin - Bezerker's Rage I think ..?
#359SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Vulajin
Originally Posted by Shaker View Post
Vul, one thing missing from the prelim 2.3 information is a blurb about the trinket off of Zul'jin - Bezerker's Rage I think ..?
Thanks for reminding me, it's [Berserker's Call] and I'll be sure to add it.
#360SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3royaljester
Originally Posted by Dontmindme View Post
Right idea, but it's actually much better to work up by increasing your Expertise while still getting dodges. This is because a single dodge proves you do not have enough Expertise (and hence that the dodge cap is higher) but no amount of repetitions without a dodge "proves" that one will never happen.

Definitely true. Can't prove because of a lack of information.

I have the searing grip, gloves, vashj belt (which with human and talents gets me to liek 16.5 expertise) and I'll try with and without the gloves on VR. Its' a steady fight, long in duration usually and can easily be done. I'll check out what I get on there both with and without the gloves (about 1.1 expertise I think).

My hope is that with 6.5% dodge (assumed of course) I'll be able to mitigate a good 4-4.5% of the dodges, which on 700+ swings is quite a bit. The downside, of course, is that to maintain my miss percentage that I just finally got to (289 with 6% passive haste and 371 weapon skill), I'll have to ravage some items and socket with mostly 10hits, meaning lionseye will go up in value (hence I previously asked about socketing my Skulker's Greaves). We'll have to see after tuesday, I guess. :-(
#361SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Urgonzigh
Armor Penetration

I asked a while ago about the value of armor penetration, and whether someone could point me to the math or testing which verified the results the spreadsheets gave. The answer I got was that it's too complicated to explain the math, and no one replied with any test data.

Well, now I finally got a piece of gear with armor penetration on it (Shady Dealer's Pantaloons) so I did a very small bit of testing on my own. While this testing is far from perfect, it was enough to raise some questions in my mind, so I'd like to ask again if anyone has actually tested armor penetration more extensively.

My test was to equip a worn dagger and hit a level 64 spider (i.e. a convenient mob near shattrath that I could kill with this weapon using only white attacks) with various amounts of attack power (AtP) and armor penetration (ArP). I used a 1-point expose armor to get an additional "armor penetration" data point. Here's the data:
AtP       ArmP     AvgHit
1166        0       93.2
1399        0      111.7
1735        0      138.4
1211      175       97.8
1444      175      116.6
1700      175      137.0
1166      410       95.7
1399      410      114.9
1735      410      142.1
Typically, the number of hits was 30-40, and I threw out crits, so all the hits at a given level of AtP and ArP were N or N+1.

The relationship between AtP and average hit ought to be perfectly linear, and it is (to the extent one can say this with such a small number of data points). ArP shouldn't be linear, but it's close enough over this small range that we can get a rough answer by treating it as linear.

There are a number of ways to look at this data, but the simplest is to ask, approximately how much attack power or armor penetration does it take to hit 1% harder? The answer I get is that starting from 1735 AtP and 0 ArP, it takes 17.44 AtP or 152.8 ArP, so 1 AtP is worth 8.75 ArP. Since the spreadsheets come up with valuations in the 3.5-4 range, this testing result is quite surprising.

Of course, the spreadsheets model a level 73 raid boss with quite a bit more armor, but as I understand it, the value of armor pentration will be *less* against a higher level, higher armored opponent. Unfortunatly, testing in a raid environment with a wide range weapon, and mongoose, unleashed rage, and other effects which change my attack power going off unpredictably is all but impossible.

Other than the fact that I'm hitting a spider instead of a raid boss, am I making any other serious error in this analysis? I ask again, has anyone done any testing to verify the accuracy of our understanding?

Last edited by Urgonzigh : 11/09/07 at 6:28 PM.
#362SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 songster
Armor has less effect when fighting something higher level than you. What that means in this context is that each point of the spider's armor is less effective than it would be against an even con player. Thus, armor penetration is correspondingly less effective against lower level targets.
#363SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3hannigaholic
Originally Posted by Dontmindme View Post
Right idea, but it's actually much better to work up by increasing your Expertise while still getting dodges. This is because a single dodge proves you do not have enough Expertise (and hence that the dodge cap is higher) but no amount of repetitions without a dodge "proves" that one will never happen.
Originally Posted by royaljester View Post
Definitely true. Can't prove because of a lack of information.

I have the searing grip, gloves, vashj belt (which with human and talents gets me to liek 16.5 expertise) and I'll try with and without the gloves on VR. Its' a steady fight, long in duration usually and can easily be done. I'll check out what I get on there both with and without the gloves (about 1.1 expertise I think).
You're both right, my mistake

But the gloves give 4 Expertise (18 Rating) which becomes 1% dodge negation. It's still the smallest change you can make though.
#364SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3
Edited onPatch 2.2.3
Urgonzigh
Originally Posted by songster View Post
Armor has less effect when fighting something higher level than you. What that means in this context is that each point of the spider's armor is less effective than it would be against an even con player. Thus, armor penetration is correspondingly less effective against lower level targets.
I believe this is incorrect. *My* armor has less effect when fighting something higher level, but that's not what I'm looking at. Although it is discussing mobs hitting the player, rather than the reverse, the formulas on wowwiki state clearly that the level of the mob being hit does not matter. Damage reduction for a given amount of armor depends only on the level of the mob (or in the case of my tests, the player) doing the hitting.

If you're right, then the common understanding (which I believe the formulas accurately represent) needs to be revised.

What *does* matter is the amount of armor which the target has. I'm not sure how to determine this accurately, perhaps by fitting a curve obtained with 0 through 5 point expose armor? In any case, as I said before, and assuming my understanding is correct, armor penetration has a bigger effect on targets with lower armor, and so assuming that raid bosses have more armor than the spider, the value of armor penetration on a boss is worse than my test calculated, not better.

EDIT: The curve fit says these spiders have 4985 armor, which seems kind of high, it is actually a bit more than the DPS spreadsheet assumes for bosses (7000 minus sunder and faerie fire = 3828) but the difference in the conclusion when I account for that is quite small. Still looking for the discrepancy between my tests and the spreadsheet.

EDIT2: Well, I think my tests don't mean anything. When I artificially add 165 ArP to the spreadsheet set up with my current gear, the buffed dps goes up 1%. It takes 49 AtP to boost buffed DPS 1%, so the ratio is 3.36:1. If I put in my test gear (worn dagger etc) and look at UNBUFFED dps, it takes 245 ArP and 28 AtP, a ratio of 8.75:1. I'm sure it's just a coincidence that this is exactly what my test showed. On the other hand, if I put in the rogue's dream gear, It takes 151 and 50. So, there's nothing to see here, move along.

Last edited by Urgonzigh : 11/09/07 at 10:48 PM.
#365SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3sp00n
Originally Posted by Dontmindme View Post
Right idea, but it's actually much better to work up by increasing your Expertise while still getting dodges. This is because a single dodge proves you do not have enough Expertise (and hence that the dodge cap is higher) but no amount of repetitions without a dodge "proves" that one will never happen.
While this being true, you can establish a (more or less high) certainty that you will never dodge, if you have a sufficient large amount of data.
#366SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Dontmindme
Have I missed someone? I keep seeing the Human racial being referred to as adding Expertise. I thought all the racial weapon skills were switched to critical chance.
#367SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Grunge
Originally Posted by Dontmindme View Post
Have I missed someone? I keep seeing the Human racial being referred to as adding Expertise. I thought all the racial weapon skills were switched to critical chance.
The change was reverted for some strange reason. (Human favoritism!)
#368SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Vulajin
Patch 2.3 information has been integrated into the main body of the first post. Check it over and let me know if there are any blatant errors.
#369SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Bluefish
Your example Combat Mutilate build skips Imp KS and QR. Imp KS is certainly of debatable utility -- it's very nice where it can be used, but most significant fights it can't be -- but getting that deep into assassination without QR seems like a strange choice. The extra what, 10 DPS from Vile Poisons? has got to be worth less than surviving pounding -> melee orb, root in green goo with shock debuff, etc. Non-DPS-related intangibles are pretty much the only thing Combat Mutilate has going for it atm, skipping them seems a bit silly.

There's also the possibility the energy return on dodge actually makes QR higher DPS than Vile Poisons. As far as I know, nobody's done any math on it :P
#370SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3 Vulajin
Originally Posted by Bluefish View Post
Your example Combat Mutilate build skips Imp KS and QR. Imp KS is certainly of debatable utility -- it's very nice where it can be used, but most significant fights it can't be -- but getting that deep into assassination without QR seems like a strange choice. The extra what, 10 DPS from Vile Poisons? has got to be worth less than surviving pounding -> melee orb, root in green goo with shock debuff, etc. Non-DPS-related intangibles are pretty much the only thing Combat Mutilate has going for it atm, skipping them seems a bit silly.

There's also the possibility the energy return on dodge actually makes QR higher DPS than Vile Poisons. As far as I know, nobody's done any math on it :P
I had constructed the template from scratch with my roughly zero knowledge of Mutilate because I had forgotten that Oscarvil already provided a Mutilate template on the first page of this thread. I went back and substituted his build in.
#371SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3madman
I am wondering if you can put any EP value to the T4 2pc set bonus. Several of the new badge rewards are better than T4 pieces, and so are Arena S3 head/chest, and I can replace them if I want. However, you said "keep 2pc T4 until 4pc T5". The only T5 piece I am likely to get in a long time would be the T5 shoulders. Should I keep two T4 regardless? I gain around 27-37 EP for each T4 I can replace with Badge/S3 items. My spec is combat dagger if that makes any diff. Will it be worth losing 2pc T4?
#372SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Oscarvil
Aldriana's spreadsheet estimates an EP for T4 2pc on the "Set bonus values" tab. For me it comes out at approximately 46 AEP.
#373SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3royaljester
Originally Posted by Dontmindme View Post
Have I missed someone? I keep seeing the Human racial being referred to as adding Expertise. I thought all the racial weapon skills were switched to critical chance.
They dropped the +1% crit and decided to give 5 expertise.

I'm personally excited, because with that, talents and [Belt of One-Hundred Deaths] I'll have over 16 expertise or ~ 4% -dodge. I can't wait to see on fights like winterchill, akama and others how much extra dps will be possible once I get my hit rating closer to the new cap, which tbh, isn't really that hard once you factor in melee dranaei buff, hit-rating food and just stacking pure hit, rather than ap/agi/crit or whatever else kids these days think is best. lol
#374SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Em.
How does 4p tier 4 gear stack with Ruthlessness?
#375SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3saedo
Originally Posted by Em. View Post
How does 4p tier 4 gear stack with Ruthlessness?
Independently. So quite possible to get them both to proc at the same time for 2 combo points.
#376SourcePosted on Patch 2.2.3Watcher
PVP hit cap?

Using the hit calculator provided in the OP post, Weapon Skill

Is the pvp hit cap with duel wield versus a level 70 mob with 5/5 precision (350 wep skill) really 299.62? (for white attacks)

see reasoning below.

(change mob level to 70 (from 73) and select duel wield box (so check is showing) and put in 5 on +hit from talents (percentage 5 % from precision if you have it). it will show that the hit cap is 299.62 (19% chance to miss on a 70 target with 5/5 precision) (64 hit rating for with 5/5 precision for special not to miss on 73/boss mob (not sure of figure for 70 mob) without 5/5 precision its 24% chance chance to miss 378.46 hit cap on a level target.

for a warrior on the other hand with a 2H, base chance to miss is 5% leaving their hit cap at 78.85 with no +hit chance from talents... on a level 70

QQ without hit talents hit cap on level 70 mob for non duel wield 78.85 for a duel wielder 378.46
#377SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0sp00n
Originally Posted by Watcher View Post
Using the hit calculator provided in the OP post, Weapon Skill

Is the pvp hit cap with duel wield versus a level 70 mob with 5/5 precision (350 wep skill) really 299.62? (for white attacks)

see reasoning below.

(change mob level to 70 (from 73) and select duel wield box (so check is showing) and put in 5 on +hit from talents (percentage 5 % from precision if you have it). it will show that the hit cap is 299.62 (19% chance to miss on a 70 target with 5/5 precision) (64 hit rating for with 5/5 precision for special not to miss on 73/boss mob (not sure of figure for 70 mob) without 5/5 precision its 24% chance chance to miss 378.46 hit cap on a level target.

for a warrior on the other hand with a 2H, base chance to miss is 5% leaving their hit cap at 78.85 with no +hit chance from talents... on a level 70

QQ without hit talents hit cap on level 70 mob for non duel wield 78.85 for a duel wielder 378.46
I don't see your point really.
5% has ever been the standard miss chance for 1 hand or 2 hand against an even level mob (or PvP target). Dual wielding this increases by 19% and the rating to hit conversion is 15.769.
So yes, against a level 70 mob and Precision your miss chance for white attacks is 19% and 0% for special attacks.

For PvP, you would want to have at least 10% hit, as e.g. mages have a talent that increases their chance to be missed by 5% (and missing a finisher just sucks).
#378SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Darkwyng
Here are sample builds for each typical rogue raid spec. Keep in mind when looking at these which talents are required and which ones are up to taste.

Combat swords (or any Sinister Strike-based weapon spec) - Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Here is my build:

The World of Warcraft Armory

It's pretty similar to the cookie cutter one posted in the first post. I do have some questions regarding the choices in the cookie cutter one though

1) Why Imp. Gouge? Is Gouge a widely used opening move in Kara and beyond? I usually open with Garrote.

2) Why Imp. Sprint over Endurance?

3) Why no Imp. Eviscerate?


Just wondering cause if 19/42/0 as shown in that build is truly better than what I've chosen I would probably switch.
#379SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Xanthi
Originally Posted by Darkwyng View Post
Here is my build:

The World of Warcraft Armory

It's pretty similar to the cookie cutter one posted in the first post. I do have some questions regarding the choices in the cookie cutter one though

1) Why Imp. Gouge? Is Gouge a widely used opening move in Kara and beyond? I usually open with Garrote.

2) Why Imp. Sprint over Endurance?

3) Why no Imp. Eviscerate?


Just wondering cause if 19/42/0 as shown in that build is truly better than what I've chosen I would probably switch.
1) It's between 3/3 gouge and 3/5 dodge, both of which doesn't really matter for pve. Chances are if you pull aggro and a boss turns on you, the 3% dodge isn't really gonna be a lifesaver. If it does, you could thank your lucky stars but the first 3 points are more of a filler really, doesn't really make a difference. I prefer to take gouge only because i pvp sometimes when i'm bored.

2) Imp Sprint is also another filler, but has alot of situational use being able to break free from snare. Of course, i pick it again mainly because of the pvp benefit, but i can't count the times when having an extra snare removal saved my life (vashj p3 and illidari council comes to mind), though it's mainly only on trash that its use comes in handy (off my mind there's morogrim, gurtogg, akama and gorefiend trash). I prefer it over endurance because generally for pve, sprint and evasion is a lifeline for when you get careless (only time it's part of the strat is ros p1 and gurtogg maybe) and if you're gonna need to use it everytime it's up to save your life then it's more of a l2p issue than being careless/unlucky.

3) Rupture > Eviscerate for bleed-able targets. As a 2pt filler, murder > 2/3 evis for murder-able targets (hence i picked 2/3 evis for my spec because iirc, all but 1 boss in the whole of bt/hyjal benefits from murder). Otherwise, the dps per talent point of murder makes it a very good talent to pick up.
#380SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Darkwyng
Originally Posted by Xanthi View Post
1) It's between 3/3 gouge and 3/5 dodge, both of which doesn't really matter for pve. Chances are if you pull aggro and a boss turns on you, the 3% dodge isn't really gonna be a lifesaver. If it does, you could thank your lucky stars but the first 3 points are more of a filler really, doesn't really make a difference. I prefer to take gouge only because i pvp sometimes when i'm bored.

2) Imp Sprint is also another filler, but has alot of situational use being able to break free from snare. Of course, i pick it again mainly because of the pvp benefit, but i can't count the times when having an extra snare removal saved my life (vashj p3 and illidari council comes to mind), though it's mainly only on trash that its use comes in handy (off my mind there's morogrim, gurtogg, akama and gorefiend trash). I prefer it over endurance because generally for pve, sprint and evasion is a lifeline for when you get careless (only time it's part of the strat is ros p1 and gurtogg maybe) and if you're gonna need to use it everytime it's up to save your life then it's more of a l2p issue than being careless/unlucky.

3) Rupture > Eviscerate for bleed-able targets. As a 2pt filler, murder > 2/3 evis for murder-able targets (hence i picked 2/3 evis for my spec because iirc, all but 1 boss in the whole of bt/hyjal benefits from murder). Otherwise, the dps per talent point of murder makes it a very good talent to pick up.
Thanks! I'm still in Kara atm...but I think we're moving to ZA where I believe the targets are bleedable AND humanoid/beast So I will probably change to 1/3 Imp. Eviscerate and 2/2 Murder.
#381SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Xanthi
Why don't you just get 3/3 ruthlessness and 0/3 eviscerate instead of 2/3 ruth 1/3 evis? The extra 20% chance for ruthlessness to proc is really nice to have when you're trying to keep up snd/rupture cycles. On bleedable ZA mobs, barring situational requirements, the only time you actually use eviscerate is when you blow your AR cooldown, and even than it's just once every 5mins for 5% more damage in that one finisher.
#382SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Darkwyng
Originally Posted by Xanthi View Post
Why don't you just get 3/3 ruthlessness and 0/3 eviscerate instead of 2/3 ruth 1/3 evis? The extra 20% chance for ruthlessness to proc is really nice to have when you're trying to keep up snd/rupture cycles
I would either do that...or do 0/3 eviscerate 5/5 vile poisons
#383SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Xanthi
I would either do that...or do 0/3 eviscerate 5/5 vile poisons
you wouldn't be able to reach the 3rd or 4th tier (vile poisons) of talents in the assassination tree though, so that 1 point has to be spent in one of the first 2 tiers, can't just make 5/5 vile poisons.
#384SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Darkwyng
Well that limits my decision then now doesn't it. What about 4/5 Lethality and 5/5 Vile Poisons? Yay or NAAAY?
#385SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Fenwick
Howdy all, a few questions here regarding 2.3.

1) Human Racial. Reading through this thread, I've seen a few people mention that the human racial is going to remain at +5skill with maces/swords instead of +1% crit like all other racials are being changed to. Is this pretty much confirmed?

2) Weapon Expertise talent. Now according to the patch notes, all items and abilities that give weapon skill/rating are being changed to expertise/expertise rating. I had naturally assumed this would mean the WE talent would be changed over as well. Is this not the case, though? Looking at the 2.3 talents on wowhead.com shows that it's still adding skill.

3) Weapon skill refresher. I'm actually coming back from a 2 month hiatus, so I'm not sure if I still have the math/mechanics down correctly. Versus a level 73, for each point of weapon skill above the cap, your chance to get dodged is lowered by .25, right? So for Humans with swordsmaces and 2/2 WE (provided it still gives skill), the base chance to be dodged is dropped to 2.75%?

4) Character sheet. How will the new combat stat show? Will it be listed as "Expertise" or "Expertise Rating"? Also, is the +5% from precision still "invisible" (i.e. not converted and shown in the hit rating box)?
#386SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Vulajin
Originally Posted by Fenwick View Post
Howdy all, a few questions here regarding 2.3.

1) Human Racial. Reading through this thread, I've seen a few people mention that the human racial is going to remain at +5skill with maces/swords instead of +1% crit like all other racials are being changed to. Is this pretty much confirmed?

2) Weapon Expertise talent. Now according to the patch notes, all items and abilities that give weapon skill/rating are being changed to expertise/expertise rating. I had naturally assumed this would mean the WE talent would be changed over as well. Is this not the case, though? Looking at the 2.3 talents on wowhead.com shows that it's still adding skill.

3) Weapon skill refresher. I'm actually coming back from a 2 month hiatus, so I'm not sure if I still have the math/mechanics down correctly. Versus a level 73, for each point of weapon skill above the cap, your chance to get dodged is lowered by .25, right? So for Humans with swordsmaces and 2/2 WE (provided it still gives skill), the base chance to be dodged is dropped to 2.75%?

4) Character sheet. How will the new combat stat show? Will it be listed as "Expertise" or "Expertise Rating"? Also, is the +5% from precision still "invisible" (i.e. not converted and shown in the hit rating box)?
1) The human racial will be Expertise, this is confirmed.

2) This will grant Expertise as well, this is confirmed.

3) You will not be able to increase weapon skill above 350, so this is immaterial.

4) There is a listing for Expertise on your Melee tab. Yes, the 5% from Precision is still invisible.
#387SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Fenwick
Originally Posted by Vulajin View Post
4) There is a listing for Expertise on your Melee tab. Yes, the 5% from Precision is still invisible.
Thanks. So, since it's listed as Expertise instead of Expertise Rating, does that mean we should take the numbers from the front post:

0/2 Weapon Expertise, non-Human: 103
1/2 Weapon Expertise, non-Human: 83
2/2 Weapon Expertise, non-Human: 64
0/2 Weapon Expertise, Human (wielding swords or maces): 83
1/2 Weapon Expertise, Human: 64
2/2 Weapon Expertise, Human: 44
and divide by 4 to get the number we actually want to see on our character sheet?

Seems like humans are getting a pretty decent buff to their racial over other classes that had similar skills.
#388SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Vulajin
Originally Posted by Fenwick View Post
So, since it's listed as Expertise instead of Expertise Rating, does that mean we should take the numbers from the front post and divide by 4 to get the number we actually want to see on our character sheet?
3.94, specifically. But yes.
#389SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0PartNinja
Actually after DLing the patch today and reading the notes, the racial weapon skills ARE 1% crit not expertise. The notes also didnt mention backstab being added to aggression or the hemo debuff being changed to +36. We'll have to wait till the servers up to see if the last two were actually changed but not noted.
#390SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Vulajin
Originally Posted by PartNinja View Post
Actually after DLing the patch today and reading the notes, the racial weapon skills ARE 1% crit not expertise. The notes also didnt mention backstab being added to aggression or the hemo debuff being changed to +36. We'll have to wait till the servers up to see if the last two were actually changed but not noted.
-_- And obviously the patch notes are always 100% accurate and up-to-date with all the PTR changes. Ask yourself how many times the patch notes have changed since they were released with the initial 2.3 PTR build.
#391SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0PartNinja
I'm talking about the patch notes that come up after you DL the patch on patch day not the ones released like a month ago. These notes mention the hemo 125% weapon damage change that the ones a month ago didnt mention. It also shows the cheat death change that also wasnt mentioned a month ago.

It does not however mention the +36dmg on hemo debuff or the aggression change.
#392SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0path411
Originally Posted by PartNinja View Post
I'm talking about the patch notes that come up after you DL the patch on patch day not the ones released like a month ago. These notes mention the hemo 125% weapon damage change that the ones a month ago didnt mention. It also shows the cheat death change that also wasnt mentioned a month ago.

It does not however mention the +36dmg on hemo debuff or the aggression change.
The PTR hasn't shown the hemo debuff since they added the 125% weapon dmg.
#393SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0royaljester
Originally Posted by Darkwyng View Post
Just wondering cause if 19/42/0 as shown in that build is truly better than what I've chosen I would probably switch.
Just to clarify, take the 1 point out of "Nerves of Steel" in combat tree and put it in Vile poisons. Another 4% dmg on your poisons over a fight is wayyyy more imporatnt than an extra 5% to resist stun and fear affects. Rarely will it matter and if it does, you should have some fear wards up so that it won't matter about the fear and stuns.....pvp? not important for a purely pve build.
#394SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0totalbodygym
I'm new to theorycrafting, but I would like some feedback on the following ring enchant comparison. (not taking into account any buffs and only white damage).

+2 weapon damage to ring:

mainhand: 2 extra damage every 2.6 seconds = 2/2.6 = .77 dps
offhand: 2 extra damage every 1.5 seconds = (2/1.5)*.75 = 1 dps
combined = 1.77 dps or 24.78 AP (14 ap = 1 dps)

for daggers, following the same math for a 1.8 and 1.4 speed dagger, you would get the following:
mh: 1.11 dps
oh: 1.07 dps
total: 2.18 dps or 30.54 AP


4 stats is 8 ap total, ~.1% crit.

It would seem that +2 weapon damage > +4 stats (as far as unbuffed white damage goes).

for daggers, following the same math for a 1.8 and 1.4 speed dagger, you would get the following:
mh: 1.11 dps
oh: 1.07 dps
total: 2.18 dps or 30.54 AP
#395SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Aldriana
The issue with that computation is 14 AP doesn't add 1 DPS; it adds 1 DPS to each hand. Hence, the conversion from DPS to AP you're doing is invalid.
#396SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0totalbodygym
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
The issue with that computation is 14 AP doesn't add 1 DPS; it adds 1 DPS to each hand. Hence, the conversion from DPS to AP you're doing is invalid.
ahh i see... but is the dps computation correct? and is there anyone able to do the math for a rough estimate of +total ap
#397SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Darkwyng
Originally Posted by royaljester View Post
Just to clarify, take the 1 point out of "Nerves of Steel" in combat tree and put it in Vile poisons. Another 4% dmg on your poisons over a fight is wayyyy more imporatnt than an extra 5% to resist stun and fear affects. Rarely will it matter and if it does, you should have some fear wards up so that it won't matter about the fear and stuns.....pvp? not important for a purely pve build.
This would be a fine idea...except that would mean I wouldn't get Surprise Attacks cause I'd only have 40 pts. in combat.
#398SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Aldriana
Well, the damage calculation is more or less correct for what it is, but it's not really a very useful number; the key thing to remember in terms of SS and Hemo builds with regards to ring enchants is that over half of your white damage and all your yellow damage - and, hence, about 2/3 of your total damage - is performed with the MH weapon, which gains little benefit from striking; hence, if you exclude yellow damage, you're going to get a skewed calculation.

As a ballpark figure:

On MH white attacks with a 2.6 speed weapon, 2 weapon damage adds roughly the same DPS to those attacks as would be added by 11 AP.

On MH yellow attacks, 2 weapon damage adds roughly the same DPS to those attacks as would be added by 12 AP.

On OH white attacks with a 2.6 speed weapon, 2 weapon damage adds roughly the same DPS to those attacks as would be added by 19 AP.

Hence, if we assume that our damage is something like 40% MH white, 30% OH white, and 30% yellow (which is roughly the right ballpark), the AP contribution of striking is something like .4*11+.3*12+.3*19 = 13.7 AP.

In practice, it's even less than that since AP also boosts rupture DPS while I don't believe that Weapon Damage does, and Sword Spec/Windfury mean that an even larger portion of your damage comes from the MH than is estimated above. Hence, when you grind the numbers on an actual raid scenario, the damage contribution for Striking tends to be around 12-12.5 AP.

Meanwhile, stats is worth about 12 AP + 4 stamina straight up, and is boosted further by the addition of Kings. As such, for a sword rogue, +stats is the clear winner.
#399SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Darkwyng
For raiding purposes, if it came down to it, would it be better to have 4/5 Lethality and 5/5 Vile Poisons or 5/5 Lethality and 4/5 Vile Poisons?
#400SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Akheva
Hello.. not sure if this is the thread to ask in.. but I'm looking to start re gemming for 2.3. Was wondering if anyone had suggestion.. i was looking at my leggings and thinking about putting 4hit / 4agi gems in there. i know my weps aren't great.. but i just decided to use swords within the last week.. been daggers till now. Going to try to get some S2.. and if im super lucky and get my skill OVER 9000 ill try for s3. Other then that.. any other suggestions? Oh btw.. i have romilo's Poison vile... I use the sky guard cross to farm.

My Armory Profile
#401SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Vulajin
Originally Posted by Akheva View Post
Hello.. not sure if this is the thread to ask in.. but I'm looking to start re gemming for 2.3. Was wondering if anyone had suggestion.. i was looking at my leggings and thinking about putting 4hit / 4agi gems in there. i know my weps aren't great.. but i just decided to use swords within the last week.. been daggers till now. Going to try to get some S2.. and if im super lucky and get my skill OVER 9000 ill try for s3. Other then that.. any other suggestions? Oh btw.. i have romilo's Poison vile... I use the sky guard cross to farm.

My Armory Profile
Hello. We don't do this kind of personalized analysis here on command, you're generally expected to do some thinking for yourself. In the first post you'll find a section on gemming that should tell you everything you need to know.
#402SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Aldriana
Originally Posted by Darkwyng View Post
For raiding purposes, if it came down to it, would it be better to have 4/5 Lethality and 5/5 Vile Poisons or 5/5 Lethality and 4/5 Vile Poisons?
This is the sort of question that is easily answered by looking at one of the assorted rogue spreadsheets in existence, so I might recommend downloading one of them and investigating the matter for yourself. Doing so will most likely indicate that Lethality adds more damage point for point than Vile Poisons, which, when coupled with the fact that Lethality works on all mobs and Vile Poisons does not, should make the answer fairly clear.

If, on the other hand, you're in a part of the itemization space where Vile Poisons is reporting higher damage than Lethality, you must weigh for yourself the merits of doing more damage against poisonable mobs and less against nonpoisonable mobs.
#403SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Fenwick
Originally Posted by Vulajin View Post
Originally Posted by Fenwick

Originally Posted by Fenwick View Post
So, since it's listed as Expertise instead of Expertise Rating, does that mean we should take the numbers from the front post and divide by 4 to get the number we actually want to see on our character sheet?
3.94, specifically. But yes.
This being the case...

Since Humans get +5 Expertise to maces/swords, and +10 Expertise from 2/2 WepEx, that puts them at 15 Expertise, which is 3 over the cap (since 44/3.94 = 11.17, round to 12). Would it be better off for Humans to only go 1/2 WepEx and make up the last two Expertise points from gear in order to free up a talent point? Granted, it's only 1 talent point, but it's still a point.
#404SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Vulajin
Originally Posted by Fenwick View Post
This being the case...

Since Humans get +5 Expertise to maces/swords, and +10 Expertise from 2/2 WepEx, that puts them at 15 Expertise, which is 3 over the cap (since 44/3.94 = 11.17, round to 12). Would it be better off for Humans to only go 1/2 WepEx and make up the last two Expertise points from gear in order to free up a talent point? Granted, it's only 1 talent point, but it's still a point.
The expertise rating listed in order to cap is in addition to the expertise you get for having the race/talents listed.
#405SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Ricard
A bug, perhaps?

So, I'm using the new patch and I was messing around with the different weapons I have. I'm a human rogue, and like to collect different sorts of weapons. When I put my two maces or two swords in, I had 15 expertise as makes sense with talents and racials. However, when I put one mace in and one sword in, I had twenty, as if they stacked. Is this actually so? Do I actually have 20 expertise, or is it just an early patch bug?
#406SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Beliandra
Originally Posted by Ricard View Post
However, when I put one mace in and one sword in, I had twenty, as if they stacked. Is this actually so? Do I actually have 20 expertise, or is it just an early patch bug?
This was reported from the PTR, but as far as I know, nobody has yet done the experimental testing needed to determine whether it's just a character sheet display bug, or whether you really do have 20 expertise.
#407SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0buster
I'm just wondering over the combat-dagger-build posted in the first post, which is the only build which has to decide between ruthlessness and murder.
According to the spreadsheet, 2/2 murder gives me more damage then 2/3 ruthlessness.
So i figured i should take murder.
Is there any particular reason for ruthlessness instead of murder?
Does this depend only on gear? I can see, that taking ruthlessness with better gear would give me more styles, and thus more yellow damage. Is that the reason?
#408SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Aldriana
Well, the answer is that Murder will generally give more damage against those targets that are affected by it; however, not all opponents are subject to it. So the rule of thumb would be that if you're working on content where most things are Murderable (such as SSC and TK), Murder is probably the better choice. If, on the other hand, you're working on content where most things aren't (Hyjal and BT, for instance), Ruthlessness is more likely better.

The other effect is that if I recall correctly (and you might want to doublecheck my facts on this), Ruthlessness helps more if you have the 2/5 t4 bonus; as you're doing more, smaller finishers, you tend to generate more CPs per unit time with Ruthlessness, which converts directly into more Rupture damage.
#409SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0tymoney321
Originally Posted by buster View Post
I'm just wondering over the combat-dagger-build posted in the first post, which is the only build which has to decide between ruthlessness and murder.
According to the spreadsheet, 2/2 murder gives me more damage then 2/3 ruthlessness.
So i figured i should take murder.
Is there any particular reason for ruthlessness instead of murder?
Does this depend only on gear? I can see, that taking ruthlessness with better gear would give me more styles, and thus more yellow damage. Is that the reason?
Well murder has more of an effect if your raiding on a t4/t5 level. However once you enter hyjal/bt you have to take into account that the majority of the mobs are NOT vulnerable to murder. I'd suggest taking ruthlessness in that situation.

Edit:Ah I'm not fast enough
#410SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0LockeLamora
Does hemo only work with fists? Im about to start kara and i want to do the best so i can ensure me a spot. I have been running 41/20 muti. I love this build a lot but everyone keeps saying im gonna have to switch if i wanna stay competitive. personal preferences tell me that i dont wanna go swords because i dont wanna fight for drops and fists dont hit me as rogue. So that leaves daggers, Maces, or fists which im currently leaning towards. Im thinking fist build along the lines of

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

or

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
#411SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Grunge
Originally Posted by LockeLamora View Post
Does hemo only work with fists? Im about to start kara and i want to do the best so i can ensure me a spot. I have been running 41/20 muti. I love this build a lot but everyone keeps saying im gonna have to switch if i wanna stay competitive. personal preferences tell me that i dont wanna go swords because i dont wanna fight for drops and fists dont hit me as rogue. So that leaves daggers, Maces, or fists which im currently leaning towards. Im thinking fist build along the lines of

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

or

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
Well "raidhemo" spec should be this
but I'd say that mutilate is still quite viable compared to combat or hemo. Especially since hemo debuff isn't that good within a smaller 10 man raid.

So go with mutilate and if you start really falling behind on damage then switch to something else? I doubt you will though.
#412SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Faytte
Weapon expertise is likely a must, and I do not see the grounds for spending a point into preparation.

The debated builds are

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Or a different variation with 5/5 sword spec and 1/2 DD
#413SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0ekval
Originally Posted by Faytte View Post
Weapon expertise is likely a must, and I do not see the grounds for spending a point into preparation.

The debated builds are

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Or a different variation with 5/5 sword spec and 1/2 DD
11/21/29 is still reasonable spec if you cant obtain decent swords. That spec works well with maces and you can use dagger offhand etc. From my own use 4/5 sword spec 2/2 DD is better for progression raids, 5/5 and 1/2 DD is better for overall (trash, fast dieing mobs).
#414SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Hashshashin
First post here on Elitistjerks, might as well make it something that's important to me.

I'm currently using Rod of the Sun King in MH with Merciless Gladiator's Quickblade in OH. I'm currently thinking about raiding as Combat Hemo (11/28/22), and I wondered if 5/5 Sword Spec for my offhand outweighs the DPS gain from 5/5 Mace Spec for my mainhand in a raiding scene. We're currently starting Hyjal/BT, if that matters.

Or should I even go 11/21/29, with Mace MH/Dagger OH?

Can't access the Armory, but I don't think my gear other than the weapons would make a difference.

Thanks in advance!

Last edited by Hashshashin : 11/15/07 at 6:26 PM.
#415SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Shaker
This sort of question is one that is well handled by the spreadsheets linked in the first post. If you have difficulties using one, drop a note in the corresponding thread and the people there will help you get it functional.
#416SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Hashshashin
Now I feel silly. Thanks Shaker. : )
#417SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Saurox
hey is Belt of One Hundred Deaths still better than Belt of Deep Shadow in 2.3?
#418SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Vulajin
Originally Posted by Saurox View Post
hey is Belt of One Hundred Deaths still better than Belt of Deep Shadow in 2.3?
This can be evaluated using Equivalence Points. Please do a little bit more to see if you can answer your own question before you post it here. The purpose of the first post is to answer questions such as these, and you are essentially wasting it if you simply jump to posting questions like this.
#419SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Kick
aggression

Since aggression now adds 6% damage to backstab (3/3),and backstab accounted for somewhere between 30-36% of combat dagger damage output before 2.3.Taking 33% as a mean,total damage should be up by 2% approx.
Does this mean combat dagger/combat swords should now be approximately equal in the build dps section of the original post or has it been edited after 2.3?.
#420SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Tosa
Originally Posted by Kick View Post
Since aggression now adds 6% damage to backstab (3/3),and backstab accounted for somewhere between 30-36% of combat dagger damage output before 2.3.Taking 33% as a mean,total damage should be up by 2% approx.
Does this mean combat dagger/combat swords should now be approximately equal in the build dps section of the original post or has it been edited after 2.3?.
Combat Backstab was about 5% behind. The change to aggression isn't enough for it to catch up.
#421SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0khaavren
Why is feint considered so bad by many rogues?

Lets take a fight like VR. Rogues need to stay under the third tanks aggro. I try and wait till the main tank has 5K of threat(perhaps I should wait till third tank has 5k) and then start dps. My plan is to vanish at around 80%.

For whatever reason, lets say I have threat issues with the third tank. Usually I have WF and they don't.

Two realistic scenarios. Start dps later or start earlier and feint.

Most posts by top rogues seem to suggest waiting longer and never feinting. I want to understand the theorycrafting behind this.

If threat is directly proportional to damage then why isn't early dps plus feint better than later dps with no feint. Early DPS gives you more energy/combo points/procs, etc. Even if you spend some of this energy on feinting aren't you better in the long run.
#422SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Aldriana
If you are threat capped, it is better to feint than to not feint. As feint actually lowers your aggro, each one allows you to do slightly more damage while staying at the same level of threat.

However, 1) The actual of benefit of feint is fairly small; it doesn't mean you can open up and start nuking right away if you couldn't before; each feint only buys you about 1 extra second of dps time; and 2) if your tank is good and getting the correct support from misdirects and the like, you shouldn't actually be threat capping badly enough that a single vanish can't manage the situation on most encounters, rendering feint totally unnecessary. So *if* you're in a situation where aggro is an issue, feint helps a little (as does Anaesthetic Poison). The reason it is disparaged is that it doesn't help very much, and usually shouldn't be needed.
#423SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Latito
Generally the advantage of feinting a few times and getting an extra ~0.5 to 1 second of dps in per feint is so small that its not worth it. That chance you have of getting some lucky Sword Spec + WF crits and such which forces you to vanish early just isn't worth it.

On any non-knockback fight, waiting for the tank to get ~5k threat (including misdirects) and you can go pretty much full out and vanish as soon as you catch up then be set for the whole fight. On a knockback fight (VR, Gurtogg).. I try and wait at least a minute before vanishing. Basically, you need to save vanish long enough such that the tank has enough threat when you vanish to stay ahead of you for at least 5 minutes.

As a general rule: Yes, feint will let you do more total dmg in a threat-capped scenerio. However, if you need to feint, there is often a bigger problem looming and just stopping your dps for a few seconds is generally safer.
#424SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Aldriana
This comes back to the "it's a small advantage" point. If the tank suffers from a significant dip in aggro, you probably do need to stop - or at least slow - DPS for a few seconds whether you feint or not. However, as long as you're stopping anyway, you might as well toss in a feint while you're waiting.
#425SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Trazhenko
I do feint occasionally, but most of the time I don't have to. Pretty much the only time I get myself into a horribly threat capped situation is if I nuke too hard, too early, and vanish too early.

Basically, if you are capable of generating more threat per second than your tank, you want to gauge the length of the fight vs. your ability to surpass him. The more damage you do before vanish, the more that vanish is worth in terms of threat reduction. You want to pace yourself so that vanish puts you far enough behind the tank that you will be somewhat close to catching him when the boss dies.

Suppose you generate 750 TPS, and your tank generates 700. You give him a 5K headstart. In this situation, you're going to catch up in 100 seconds, vanish, and then the tank will be ahead by 70K threat, which you will definitely not surpass in any TBC encounter unless there are knockbacks or your tank DCs from the game.

Personally, in almost any fight that is NOT Gurtogg, I can start DPS when the tank has 6-8K, blow *EVERYTHING*, vanish a mere 30 seconds after I engaged the boss, and never catch up again. It's all going to depend on the gap in TPS between you and your tank.

On a side note, since I don't have AR anymore, I might not even catch the tank and need to vanish after 30 seconds in the first place.
#426SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0JTLJudoMan
Let me preface this post by saying that I have read the previous 17 pages of posts and gone through a few of the spreadsheets. I have been a longtime theory crafter myself and this website has been an excellent source of information. I've also done several evaluations of different stats based upon the armory values. These evaluations involve graphical analysis via excel and the equation fitter to trend lines.

From this I see that 1 Agi = 1 Attack power +0.025% Crit.
0.025% Crit is 0.045 Crit Rating.

So 1 AGI = 1AP+0.045CR
Assuming Vitality and kings
1AGI=(1.02)*(1.1)AGI=1.122AGI

So 1 AGI = 1.122AP+0.05049CR

Assuming the 1CR=1.76AP calculation mentioned earlier is true.
1AGI=1.122AP+0.088862AP
1AGI=1.210862AP

I am having a hard time accepting that 1 Agility = 2 EAP (effective attack power).

I apologize again if this has already been answered. I have read everything I could find and wasn't able to find the actual methods behind the 2-1 AP for AGI equivalence. Lots of people like to refer to it and accept it as truth I was just trying to verify the numbers. Could someone please point out for me the error in my calculations?
#427SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Aldriana
.025% crit is .55 crit rating, not .045. So assuming 1 crit rating = 1.76 AP, the crit from agility is worth .55*1.76*1.122 = 1.09 AP, plus 1.12 = 2.2, which, conveniently, is almost the exact conversion listed for agility with kings.
#428SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
JTLJudoMan
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
.025% crit is .55 crit rating, not .045. So assuming 1 crit rating = 1.76 AP, the crit from agility is worth .55*1.76*1.122 = 1.09 AP, plus 1.12 = 2.2, which, conveniently, is almost the exact conversion listed for agility with kings.
Thanks. =)

I forgot to divide the %crit by the %CR. 0.025/0.0454 = 0.5506

Thanks again. This will help a lot with my calculations.

Last edited by JTLJudoMan : 11/16/07 at 5:17 PM.
#429SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Sabyn
Have slightly odd gear question. I just hit 70 and so I have really crappy gear. When Tuesday rolls around I will be able to purchase two gladiator weapons, and I can't decide between fist/sword and just swords. The Gladiator's Right Ripper seems to be better than the equivalent sword, but I wasn't sure if fist/sword was a spec that worked well with crappy gear (I am not sure how the specs all scale downwards in gear quality). Those two weapons seem by far the best for what I have access to now, and will likely hold me for awhile.
#430SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Mooneyes
Originally Posted by Vulajin View Post
Stat         | Swords       | Daggers      | Fist/Sword   | Hemo+Swords  | Hemo+Deadl.  
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Strength     | 1.00 (1.10)  | 1.00 (1.10)  | 1.00 (1.10)  | 1.00 (1.10)  | 1.00 (1.10)  
Agility      | 2.00 (2.21)  | 1.96 (2.17)  | 1.97 (2.17)  | 1.88 (2.07)  | 1.87 (2.06) 
Atk. Power   | 1.00         | 1.00         | 1.00         | 1.00         | 1.00        
Crit Rating  | 1.75 (1.76)  | 1.67 (1.68)  | 1.69 (1.70)  | 1.59 (1.60)  | 1.57 (1.58) 
Hit Rating   | 2.28 (2.31)  | 2.12 (2.15)  | 2.15 (2.18)  | 2.04 (2.07)  | 1.83 (1.85) 
Exp. Rating  | 2.51 (2.55)  | 2.43 (2.46)  | 2.42 (2.45)  | 2.38 (2.41)  | 2.22 (2.25) 
Armor Pen.   | 0.29         | 0.32         | 0.29         | 0.29         | 0.28        
Haste Rating | 2.15 (2.19)  | 2.18 (2.22)  | 2.14 (2.18)  | 1.92 (1.96)  | 1.83 (1.87) 
Gem (Rare)   | 17.1 (18.1)  | 16.3 (17.3)  | 16.5 (17.4)  | 15.7 (16.6)  | 14.8 (15.6) 
Gem (Epic)   | 20.5 (21.7)  | 19.6 (20.7)  | 19.8 (20.9)  | 18.8 (19.9)  | 17.7 (18.8) 
Meta Gem     | ~80          | ~80          | ~80          | ~80          | ~80
First post here so sue me if missed anything important.
I have been following this thread on and off since hemo discussions started when it was buffed on ptr.
I hope this hasnt been asked and answered already if so im sry for wasting space.
Hemo+Deadliness specc shouldnt 1 ap be worth 1.08 due to 4/5 deadliness?
Or am i missing something.

Also if someone could point me in the direction were i can find the claulations on those Armor pen values.
(cant seam to find it)
I thought armor pen values where varibles depending on target armor?
#431SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Vulajin
Originally Posted by Mooneyes View Post
First post here so sue me if missed anything important.
I have been following this thread on and off since hemo discussions started when it was buffed on ptr.
I hope this hasnt been asked and answered already if so im sry for wasting space.
Hemo+Deadliness specc shouldnt 1 ap be worth 1.08 due to 4/5 deadliness?
Or am i missing something.

Also if someone could point me in the direction were i can find the claulations on those Armor pen values.
(cant seam to find it)
I thought armor pen values where varibles depending on target armor?
For each spec, I define 1 EP equal to the DPS contribution that 1 AP would provide for that spec. So EP weights weigh all stats against AP given a particular spec, but the catch is that you can't directly compare EP values of a piece of gear between specs.

Armor penetration does increase in effectiveness with target armor, but so do other DPS stats. Will it maintain the exact same ratio? Perhaps not exactly, but it's close enough for government work.
#432SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Mooneyes
Ahh it was an error on my part. As i got lost in numbers ty.
#433SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
spooks
ZA?

A question regarding scaling, first time posting on this forum, you guys have helped me out like you wouldn't believe with all this info, I can honestly say I nearly doubled my raid dps. (granted Ive gotten some gear in between there but the information here has been a *big* part of it.)

Im wondering, I know you have armor penetration and haste broken down to AP in order to help calculate item value but I know armor penetration becomes more valuable the lower the targets AC/the more of it you have stacked, Im also wondering if haste is the same or if it's a flat increase regardless of how much you have.

Also how was the AP value of armor pen calculated, is it an average, on raid mobs, etc.
Im in a guild beginning ssc/tk and Im starting to see these sort of drops out of ZA so really wondering if it's effective, going by the spreadsheets on what to take for the best dps as a combat swords rogue I dropped from 307 hit to 279 hit while gaining some AP and a bit of armor pen.

*edit* just saw the reply about armor pen above, it wasn't showing for me before, thank you. Hadn't really considered other things scaling with AC.

Thanks again for the info, and any advice/info in the future, keep up the great work its much appreciated.

Here's an armory link if anyones curious, though right now Im in the process of replacing a nightseye in the pants with a dawnstone.

The World of Warcraft Armory

**edit 2** Also was wondering, I know 1 agil=2 AP/2.2 with kings but was wondering if that takes crit we get from agi into account. Thanks again!

**edit 3** Forgot, also wanted to ask, is there anyway to calculate around what AP the tier 4/5/6 set bonuses are worth?
Didnt see anything in the thread.

Last edited by spooks : 11/19/07 at 5:58 AM. Reason: adding
#434SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Trishnakovic
Originally Posted by spooks View Post
**edit 2** Also was wondering, I know 1 agil=2 AP/2.2 with kings but was wondering if that takes crit we get from agi into account. Thanks again!
Of course it does!. One point of agility equals one attack power and roughly 1/40 crit. If the crit element hadn't be considered, how could 1 Agi possibly be worth 2 AP? :P
#435SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0koaschten
Originally Posted by spooks View Post
**edit 3** Forgot, also wanted to ask, is there anyway to calculate around what AP the tier 4/5/6 set bonuses are worth?
Didnt see anything in the thread.
Taken from the "Rogue Gear Spreadsheet"
Wastewalker 2/5 ~85ap
Wastewalker 4/5 ~75ap

Netherblade 2/5 ~22ap
Netherblade 4/5 ~20ap

Deathmantle 4/5 ~85ap

Slayer's 2/5 ~140ap
Slayer's 4/5 ~75ap

Keep in mind, this are relative values for MY current equip. Grab yourself a copy from the "Rogue Gear Spreadsheet" Thread and check the "Set Bonus Value" Sheet after you added your gear in.
Modified version of Aldriana's Rogue Gear Spreadsheet, trying to simulate raised hit cap and weapon expertise skill in 2.3 with added gear from Zul'aman
Free file hosting by Savefile.com
#436SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Aldriana
Originally Posted by spooks View Post
**edit 3** Forgot, also wanted to ask, is there anyway to calculate around what AP the tier 4/5/6 set bonuses are worth?
Didnt see anything in the thread.
The Rogue Gear Spreadsheet includes estimates for the value of these set bonuses.

::Edit:: Was beaten to the punch. Ah well.
#437SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0saedo
I got a question that doesn't really relate to dps or anything, well maybe not directly. Anyways, with the discovery of [Spinesever], probably quite a few of us went on a pickpocketing spree. Well I had a few unlucky streak of resists while doing it so it got me curious. Is there anyway to lower resist rates for it? Melee hit? Kinda like how warrior taunts and stuff are not affected by that now. But didn't hear of any changes to our skill. So maybe spell hit? lol
#438SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Aldriana
Well, I was running around with 250 hit rating pickpocketing level 67-68s and getting resisted, so unless it uses the dual wield penalty (which I seriously doubt) I think it's safe to say that hit rating isn't the answer. Logic dictates that the answer is thus most likely spell hit, but one would have to test that.
#439SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0clii
with armor ignore comming as a new stat for me to play with i was wondering if the ~AP ratio is .29 per 1 armor ignored or how that works. I know its crucial to not neglect other stats while gearing myself, but to what extent? I see rogues like Deamona who pack it on and others who take it as it comes. (not sure who does more dps and im sure it changes boss to boss.) BTW, this thread has increased my dps by huge amounts and big props to Vulajin for making it so detailed and easy to understand.
#440SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Donjo
Just wanted to say great post, It's about time a class info thread pops up that rivals the great Enhance shaman thread on here.
#441SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0koaschten
Originally Posted by clii View Post
I see rogues like Deamona who pack it on and others who take it as it comes.
You must have caught me in my low hit high armor-pen gear for farming
Two-hitting cloth mobs is fun with swords *whistles innocently*
#442SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Jo
As a rogue who's just now getting re-involved in raiding after a six month absence, I have a couple questions for those who've seen all the existing raid content.

Which fights, if any, do you (or did you) wear resist gear for? How much?

As noted in the initial post, +Hit is the preferred raiding stat because of all the on-hit procs (Mongoose, Combat Potency, Sword Spec, Windfury, Dragonspine Trophy) potentially available to full combat rogues in progressed raiding guilds. For rogues who's current gear / raid makeup only allows for 2 or 3 of those procs, have you been gemming and enchanting +Agility to make best use of what you have, or are you making choices based on the ideal conditions?
#443SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Vulajin
Originally Posted by Jo View Post
Which fights, if any, do you (or did you) wear resist gear for? How much?
On our first attempt ever on Solarian (note: we didn't get to her until after patch 2.2), I wore 165 AR. I immediately took it off for the next attempt and never looked back.

The only fight I can think of that should require SR gear would be Mother Shahraz, but to be honest, I have no personal idea about Hyjal/BT fights. I can tell you that nothing in SSC/TK or earlier requires any resists.

Originally Posted by Clii
with armor ignore comming as a new stat for me to play with i was wondering if the ~AP ratio is .29 per 1 armor ignored or how that works. I know its crucial to not neglect other stats while gearing myself, but to what extent? I see rogues like Deamona who pack it on and others who take it as it comes. (not sure who does more dps and im sure it changes boss to boss.) BTW, this thread has increased my dps by huge amounts and big props to Vulajin for making it so detailed and easy to understand.
I'm not quite sure what you're asking. You use EP for armor penetration the exact same way you'd use it for anything else. There's nothing special about armor penetration gear, if that's what you're wondering, and stacking any single stat will result in badness (except in niche situations, e.g. Daemona's farming set, which sounds like hella fun and I'd like to have a set like that).
#444SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
ekval
Originally Posted by Jo View Post
Which fights, if any, do you (or did you) wear resist gear for? How much?
Only Mother Shahraz requires resistance gear in whole TBC raiding, shadow resistance gear in particular. 295 unbuffed is good amount to have in that fight, but I wouldn't worry about it until you are actually in BT (SR gear craftable from HoDs).

Last edited by ekval : 11/20/07 at 2:22 AM.
#445SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Porta
I was wondering about Enchants. Specifically, leg enchants or armors. Which one is the best and second best? There's [Nethercleft Leg Armor] or [Nethercobra Leg Armor]. It's prolly pretty obvious, but I figure that would check anyways.

EDIT: I thought might be something that would be good for the original post as well.

Last edited by Porta : 11/20/07 at 2:22 AM.
#446SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0ekval
Originally Posted by Porta View Post
I was wondering about Enchants. Specifically, leg enchants or armors. Which one is the best and second best? There's [Nethercleft Leg Armor] or [Nethercobra Leg Armor]. It's prolly pretty obvious, but I figure that would check anyways.

EDIT: I thought might be something that would be good for the original post as well.
You were right, it should be obvious. [Nethercobra Leg Armor] provides more dps while [Nethercleft Leg Armor] provide more defensive stats. Therefore we can rank those [Nethercobra Leg Armor] > [Nethercleft Leg Armor] dpswise.
#447SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Latito
Originally Posted by Vulajin View Post
You use EP for armor penetration the exact same way you'd use it for anything else. There's nothing special about armor penetration gear, if that's what you're wondering, and stacking any single stat will result in badness (except in niche situations, e.g. Daemona's farming set, which sounds like hella fun and I'd like to have a set like that).
While I agree that generally stacking a single stat isn't the best idea (most stats tend to increase in value based on your other stats) Armor Pen is a bit different in that regard. Due to the way the dmg reduction formula works, the more armor pen you have, the more its worth. that is, until the boss hits 0 armor. I'm not saying stack armor pen exclusive to everything else, it is essentially a multiplier on your dps, but taking a mob from 4k armor to 3800 armor isn't worth nearly as much as taking a mob from 200 armor to 0.
#448SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Kazkûl
Hi there all

First forum post here, just wanted to say thanks for a great forum!

Edit: I found my question at another part of the forum =P so nvm my post .

Last edited by Kazkûl : 11/20/07 at 4:03 AM.
#449SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Lilias
Few questions about the new BS / Hemo formulas: are these correct?

a) BS with SuA, Opp and Aggression: (((AP / 14) * 1.7 + Avg Weapondmg)*1.5 + 255)*1.36
So basically, do all three of them stack additive or is that only true for SuA with one of the others, while Opp + Agg stack multiplicative with each other?

b) Hemo: (AP/14) * 2.4 + Avg Weapondmg * 1.25
Does the 125% factor ignore the AP Bonus which usually (as in BS, for example) gets included?
And what about the debuff, I heard it never applies for the Hemostyle itself. That correct?

As always any suggestions are appreciated.
#450SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Vulajin
Originally Posted by Latito View Post
While I agree that generally stacking a single stat isn't the best idea (most stats tend to increase in value based on your other stats) Armor Pen is a bit different in that regard. Due to the way the dmg reduction formula works, the more armor pen you have, the more its worth. that is, until the boss hits 0 armor. I'm not saying stack armor pen exclusive to everything else, it is essentially a multiplier on your dps, but taking a mob from 4k armor to 3800 armor isn't worth nearly as much as taking a mob from 200 armor to 0.
Yes and no. As you correctly mentioned, every stat scales with your other stats. Normally, what happens is that as you increase stat X, the values of stats Y and Z both increase, such that X's value relative to Y and Z decreases somewhat (this is why it's best to boost your stats across the board, rather than stacking one stat exclusively). The difference with armor penetration is that as your armor penetration increases, the value of armor penetration also increases, so that the relative values stay roughly the same. So you're correct that there's less of a negative to single-mindedly stacking armor penetration the way there is with other stats. However, it still makes a good general policy to avoid stacking a single stat.

Originally Posted by Lilias
a) BS with SuA, Opp and Aggression: (((AP / 14) * 1.7 + Avg Weapondmg)*1.5 + 255)*1.36
So basically, do all three of them stack additive or is that only true for SuA with one of the others, while Opp + Agg stack multiplicative with each other?

b) Hemo: (AP/14) * 2.4 + Avg Weapondmg * 1.25
Does the 125% factor ignore the AP Bonus which usually (as in BS, for example) gets included?
And what about the debuff, I heard it never applies for the Hemostyle itself. That correct?
A) Yes, the three talents you mentioned stack additively. A 136% modifier is correct.
B) The AP bonus is affected by the 125% multiplier. I'm not sure why you thought otherwise. The Hemo debuff does not apply to the ability damage.
#451SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Hamburglar
First of all, thanks for a fantastic thread. Has really helped me push dps.

Quick question, and Ive gone through some spreadsheeting here as well. Its the hit-factor combined with the 4/5 swordspec-build. Im currently at 312 hit unbuffed, and suspecting this is a bit high. The spreadsheet comes up with 280 hitrating unbuffed, which seems a bit low again, and if I adjust with hit / agigems I actually get a higher rough dps by bumping hit up to aprox 300.

Do we still value hit as much in the hybrid hemo-swords build as in a pure combat swords? Page 1 states that hit should be as important, but I havent seen any real numbers on this yet.

I hope this is a relevant question, and also hope it hasnt been discussed to death before (at least I cant find it here at the moment.) There is currently a discussion going on in the hemo vs sinister thread, but no conclusion has been drawn yet.

And again, thanks for a fantastic thread!
#452SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Soulburn
With my current gear i can go up to 340 hit unbuffed but as some of you mentioned before it seems a bit unnecessary, although new hit cap was confirmed for 363.

Instead of that i still stick to 270-280 hit after 2.3 and my miss % was around 2.

The point is... is it pointless to get 363 rating ?

Oh btw, i'm a combat dagger (pve) rogue, with weap expertise & 5/5 precision.
#453SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Vulajin
Originally Posted by Vulajin
The hit and expertise caps are NOT magic numbers that every rogue [or any rogue] must reach. There is no special benefit to being capped with either stat.
There's no better way I can say it. Use the best pieces of gear available and don't worry so much about whether you're capped, uncapped, "low" on hit, or "near" the cap.
#454SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Melnor
This may be a bit off topic but it's rogue specific. After the discovery of the new ranged weapon found from a lock box I started my quest to see if I could get as lucky. I pickpocketed mobs all over Shadowmoon Valley and ended up with around 20 lockboxes. To my suprise, [The Night Blade] was in one of the lock boxes. Has anyone else gotten a BoE epic from a lock box? I'm willing to believe that [Spinesever] is a normal BoE epic in the sense that any mob can drop it and now as a result of a bug or not, pickpocketed lock boxes have a chance to drop an epic BoE item.
#455SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Gern
So has a consensus formed yet concerning Hemo vs. Combat in 2.3? Pre-patch almost everyone agreed that Hemo builds would be putting out as much, if not more sustained dps, once the changes to Hemo went live. And now that it has gone live, many people are stating that they do noticeably less dps after spec'ing Hemo. But since this is all here-say, and there are a million variables to take into account every time you're fighting something it's hard to know for sure where things currently stand.
#456SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0koaschten
Gern, please notice, that while the hype of combat/hemo speccs lasted, on the PTR hemo wasn't yet normalized as it is on the Live Realms currently. After normalization you need some quite good gear to get en par with combat swords when going 11/27/23 for example.
#457SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Vulajin
Originally Posted by koaschten View Post
Gern, please notice, that while the hype of combat/hemo speccs lasted, on the PTR hemo wasn't yet normalized as it is on the Live Realms currently. After normalization you need some quite good gear to get en par with combat swords when going 11/27/23 for example.
This is incorrect. Hemo was normalized on the PTR the same as it is currently. All discussion to take place about Hemo during the 2.3 PTR assumed Hemo to be normalized. The conclusions currently indicated in the first post of this thread are based on the same [correct] assumption.
#458SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0mysteltainn
Considering all this discussion on armor penetration, why nothing about using expose armor when it won't gimp the tank's ability to gather threat (any non-warrior tank)? Given the equivalence point chart to calculate its relative value, it's worth about 615ap - or 922.5ap when specced - to all physical dps for 30 seconds, costing only 25 energy and 5 combo points - which I'd think is a fair investment.

Though I get the feeling this is more about higher-end raiding, where I've heard warrior tanks are practically required due to their superior scaling. But no mention at all? Unless I'm missing something critically crippling about this ability.
#459SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Vulajin
Just about any high-end raid will have a protection warrior as the main tank. In any instance where a protection warrior is not main tanking, there is almost always a protection warrior in the raid anyway, so he has nothing better to do than apply Sunders. Although Imp Expose Armor is superior to 5x Sunder by 475 armor, it's not superior by enough to justify the rogue giving up his normal Rupture or Eviscerate or whatever.

Last time I used Expose Armor in a raid was to debuff Fathom-Guard Tidalvess, because we use a druid to tank it and all the warriors are busy tanking other stuff. We have a druid tank Morogrim, but again, since there's a prot warrior, he does Sunders.

(edit) And if it wasn't clear, yes, this post is heavily biased towards raiding, which I would imagine is what the large majority of people needing theorycraft of this degree would be interested in.
#460SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Lilias
Originally Posted by Vulajin View Post
B) The AP bonus is affected by the 125% multiplier. I'm not sure why you thought otherwise.
One of the sources I checked was wowwiki & they say otherwise. Since they calculated SuA additiv to other modifiers long before it got changed in the spreadsheet (in fact I only assume it did get fixed there by now, didn't check myself), I at least wanted to ask if the're also right in this.
Anyways, thanks for clarifying.
#461SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Shaker
Originally Posted by Vulajin View Post
Just about any high-end raid will have a protection warrior as the main tank.
That all being said, if you find yourself in a situation where there is no, and will be no sunder armor applications, expose is a very large raidwide buff and one rogue should be trying to keep it up - I have been doing so with prot pally/feral druid ZA group. Cycles will very much depend on set bonuses - I'm currently using 2pc T4, so I can do 1s/5r/1s/5xp without losing SnD downtime as combat. If you're running 5s/5r or any other cycle that's nearly 30 seconds long, you'll just end up replacing rupture with expose.
#462SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Dontmindme
First, don't give Wowwiki, itself, too much credit for declaring those additive first. I did testing on this when the 41 point talents came out pre-BC, and I changed the formulas on the backstab page way back then. As any Wiki, it's modified by it's users. And maybe its relevant that I'm following these forums as the premiere source of theorycrafting, and not Wowwiki.

I should probably add a little background. I had developed my own personal spreadsheet and was looking for various formulas after the pre-BC changes to weapon skill. Wowwiki was one of the first places I looked, because many people at least made an attempt to post the actual formulas. Many of these are spot on, but many aren't. I built some double-checks into my spreadsheet and noticed a problem with the backstab formula in particular. I did some testing, fixed it on Wowwiki. I actually ended up finding these forums after months of trying to find out what weapon skill actually did (as opposed to random forum posts saying it didn't seem to do much with no real quantification). After seeing the work done on these spreadsheets, my own spreadsheets are now gathering dust as, in particular, the DPS sheet was enough ahead of my own effort that I converted.

I never really went back to Wowwiki to fix anything else. There are too many pages, linked in too many ways and enough errors it didn't seem worth my time. That and the fact you get people reverting changes because they "think" they know better, including people who believed melee has a small chance to always miss, not wanting to believe there could be a hit cap among other issues. The fact that anyone can make changes without any relevant testing turned me off to the concept of correcting errors in Wowwiki.

The 125% applies to but weapon damage and attack power. I may have something to add to Hemo formula mechanics when I get some time to do more testing. I did a little preliminary testing and discovered a few anomalies. I was cut off before I could double-check my findings, it was time for raid invites and haven't had the time to go back and prove and document my possible findings yet. The biggest thing seemed to be an apparent 11th charge...it seemed as though the first Hemo gains the benefit of the debuff, even when no debuff has yet been applied. If this holds true, it means the real formula is 125% (weapon damage + AP/14*2.4 + 36) as it appeared you get a free debuff on all your Hemo attacks. Again, this should be taken with a certain grain of salt, it needs to be verified, but even with a low-range weapon, my first Hemo seemed to be doing the same damage as subsequent Hemos (with the debuff up).

Last edited by Dontmindme : 11/20/07 at 3:27 PM.
#463SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Shaker
That testing has been done, and it shows that hemo does NOT get the effect of its own debuff, even if the debuff is up (as it reapplies it). That's why you see consistent damage. Of course, if you have a solid test that shows otherwise and supports the 11th charge theory (presumably with a very tight damage range weapon and very controlled stats so you can predict within 3-4 damage what hemo SHOULD be doing), then I'd be very interested in seeing that.
#464SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Dontmindme
Well, that's exactly why I wanted to revisit it. My very quick number-crunching seemed to indicate that I was getting the debuff benefit, but I was also hurried as raid invites had started and may have miscalculated something. As to testing has already been done, I've heard that other places, and until I see the actual tests, it's hard to draw conclusions. For example, I had heard how Surprise Attacks, Opportunity and Aggression were multiplicative, how it had been tested, yet no one could point me to that evidence. I would have believed it too, if I hadn't already tested Surprise Attacks when the 41-point talents first came out pre-BC and found it to be additive. If you can point me to specific posts or other forums where this has been tested, it might narrow down my own testing a bit. At the very least I can check out their methodology to see if the testing was sound.

It should be noted, I prefer to do all testing on Live, as Blizzard seems to make any number of changes during PTR testing, including sometimes undoing changes temporarily and reinstating them on Live. We'll see. This isn't the only thing I'm looking at.
#465SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0ModusTollens
I switched to hemo/deadliness today from Combat Maces, and I have so far been underwhelmed. On trash, am I supposed to do a 1pt SnD then hemo until evis? or would a 5pt rupture to start off with be best?
#466SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0KasumiRevy
ModusTollens thats pretty basic.

1s/5r rotation. While you can check the spreadsheets to clarify your best cycle, most combat/sub specs will want to use the same rotation.

Also evis, is only a filler finisher, and used on bosses like hydross and void reaver who are bleed immune.
#467SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0ModusTollens
DPS spreadsheet says 3s/5r, which is understandable for bosses. I got so used to combat mace cycles that I am wandering in the dark a little, not knowing what to expect. This thread says that hemo/deadliness isnt that far off on damage with combat mace; the spreadsheet put hemo/deadliness a full 60 dps in raid buffs over combat maces with my gear and gems. My problem is, dps meters is telling a whole different story....

Maybe I didnt word the first post correctly. This is for trash mobs.
#468SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0KasumiRevy
Spreadsheets are never an exact science. They are more of a reference tool then anything. I need to be a better reader in these forums, you were clear enough on the trash mobs. I personally feel, in any fight, you want slice up constantly, so going for a 5 rupture cycle off the bat seems fairly counter-productive. Of course, sometimes your fighting low health trash, and the rupture won't get the maxed milage, but you do need to consider the fact it does avoid armor, and with sub spec it will outperform eviscerate by a healthy margin *even when you don't get the full duration from it*.

In the end it can be as simple as common sense.

Your target has 75% health at a 5 cp? Rupture
Your target has 25% health at a 5 cp? Envenom/Eviscerate

I personally prefer keeping the mace spec for the stun utility (i'm stunning trash in ZA, to my surprise) and the +5% crit damage.

My spec is outperforming my old combat mace spec, but my results my have several contributing factors (going from 368 weapon skill to, 21 expertise for example)
#469SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0koaschten
Modus, do you have "[] Include Hemo Debuff dps Estimate" checked? If you want to compare personal dps only, make sure its NOT checked.
#470SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 songster
Getting slice up immediately is imperative for every single build. So start with slice after your opener.

After that, rupture is your next best damage / energy, but you'll lose effectiveness if it doesn't have time to tick. So you drop the biggest rupture you can, based on the expected time to death of the mob. Generally this means building CP until the mob is at about 50% health and then rupturing for 3-4 points. After that, continue to build CP and then either eviscerate in the last couple of percent or refresh slice if it's fading. Bear in mind that Dirty Deeds boosts all yellow damage when mobs are low on health, so a useful tactic is to eviscerate at about 5% and hope to refresh slice from a Ruthlessness proc.

Your goals are:

(a) Keep slice up at all times
(b) Use ruptures as long as the damage isn't going to be wasted
(c) Spend excess CP on eviscerates if the mob is low on health.


I haven't yet tested to see whether Envenom is useful as a final finisher - with builds containing Vile Poisons, it generally is a good idea to use Envenom rather than Eviscerate in situations where the DP stack won't have time to tick out (i.e. final finishers on dying mobs). However you don't get any poison talents in a PvE Hemo build. In any case it's annoying to be dependent on the DP procs to build the stack. Right now I'm just using IP on my offhand for trash: if the DP won't have time to tick and you're not using Envenom, then IP comes out better.
#471SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Alaras
One thing that I didn't see mentioned yet that made sense to me when mentioned by a fellow guild rogue...

We NEVER stealth in raids. The loss of dps time that it takes to get behind someone for a garrote/ambush just doesn't seem worth it most of the time. I would often lose 5-6 seconds at least trying to get into position for an opener. I'm combat swords and I open every fight by running in out of stealth and whacking the mob with SS. My white attacks start ASAP this way.

Of course there are times when you want to use a stealth opener, depending on the trash, but in almost all 25 man raid situations I think they lessen your damage output. The same is true of many 10 man situations.
#472SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0exog
Also the damage per energy of garrotte vs ss can be debated.
#473SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 songster
Originally Posted by Alaras View Post
We NEVER stealth in raids.
Speak for yourself. On any boss fight you need to give the tank a couple of seconds to establish aggro - there's no reason to not to start in stealth. Particularly if the mob is being misdirected onto the tank, in which case you can be standing in position 30 seconds before the pull, so movement speed is irrelevant.

Stealth when it's useful. Don't when it isn't. Needless overgeneralisations don't help anyone.
#474SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Tosa
I stealth on trash so I can pickpocket them.
#475SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Quasar
Originally Posted by songster View Post
Speak for yourself.
Originally Posted by Alaras View Post
We NEVER stealth in raids.
He did.

So anyway.

I've formerly been Combat Hemo maces, double goose on S2 MH/OH. I'm a bit undergeared compared to the other Rogues in my guild (I joined a couple weeks back), but thus far I have done pretty strong DPS considering (almost always top 5 in 25-mans if not top 3). Last night, I went to SSC and won Talon of Azshara, which I put Executioner on after the raid, and with my little Latro's (fiery) in tow specced Combat Swords.

Now, I had my old info in the spreadsheet, which listed me (without the added Hemo dps checked) at 676/1250 DPS. My current spec and gear (replaced icon of unyielding courage with abacus, and grips of deftness with fel leather) lists me at 697/1261. I'm aware my offhand is 26 DPS below my last one, but even with S2 OH sword (which I'll hopefully be able to get next week), my dps only goes up around 15. Not the massive jump I was hoping for, but my main concern right now is that the spreadsheet lists Executioner on my Talon at 15/28 DPS behind Mongoose. That's an awfully big gap right there, and combined with the marginal spreadsheet dps different with my old spec (and very underwhelming grinding dps compared to my old spec - about 50 dps less), I'm concerned I'm just doing something totally wrong here. I'm worried that the next time I raid, I'm going to underperform.

Armory's in my profile, any ideas would be appreciated. I know spreadsheets are just kind of guidelines, and I try different specs, gear arrangements, and read a lot of info when I can, but advice is always welcome.

Last edited by Quasar : 11/21/07 at 1:30 PM.
#476SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Gryzemuis
I understand how Weapon Expertise impacts hit/miss/dodged/parried. However, I recall that the old weapon expertise also reduced the loss of white dps from glancing blows. I also know that things changed with patch 2.2 But I can not find any recent information on glancing blows.

Question: does Weapon Expertise still have an impact on glancing blows ?

If so, what are the details ? Percentage of glancing blows reduced ? Less damage loss per hit ?
#477SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0saedo
No effect. Actually even before this patch weapon skill had no effect on glancing blows. Changed it a while ago so it only provided some hit and crit for the boss mobs.
#478SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0royaljester
Originally Posted by Gryzemuis View Post
I understand how Weapon Expertise impacts hit/miss/dodged/parried. However, I recall that the old weapon expertise also reduced the loss of white dps from glancing blows. I also know that things changed with patch 2.2 But I can not find any recent information on glancing blows.

Question: does Weapon Expertise still have an impact on glancing blows ?

If so, what are the details ? Percentage of glancing blows reduced ? Less damage loss per hit ?

First, Weapon Skill (Old stat) took care of dodges, parries (we guess), crit and hit against boss level mobs.

New Weapon Expertise takes care of dodges/parries only, but by a larger margin.

Back, pre-BC, Weapon skill rating also took care of glancing, but they changed that post-BC so that glancing blows could no longer be mitigated. As I understood it, they were lessened though, so that you would see less dmg reduction from them (since you can't mitigate them in any way).

So, in essence, we traded Weapon skill for Expertise, which does more bang for the buck, imo but we lost hit and crit. The new hit cap is 363, not 308, and glancing blows can not be mitigated.
#479SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Nihthraefn
At the risk of being late on the mentioning of feint in this thread, I wanted to add my own note - I've only found feint useful for bosses that have a number of transitions that wipe aggro, such as Leotheras and Hydross. I believe it has a legitimate purpose at times within those fights if you have a tank that is slightly slower to pick up aggro due to any number of factors (GnM uses a warrior tank on Leo's demon phase for example). A well placed feint there will give you a little more room to work. For most bosses however, even ones with aggro reducing abilities such as VR, vanish should cover you for the fight.
#480SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Vulajin
Originally Posted by Quasar View Post
my main concern right now is that the spreadsheet lists Executioner on my Talon at 15/28 DPS behind Mongoose.
There is not sufficient data to substantiate any estimates of Executioner's DPS value, the proc rate has not been established for certain. If you'd like to provide some data, I'd recommend looking at [Raid] Executioner vs. Mongoose, preliminary numbers.
#481SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0madman
I know that how to value stamina is a bit subjecitive, but I wonder if you have any thoughts on this. I recently got Nyn'jah's Tabi Boots. which have a red and a blue socket, and +3hit socket bonus.

Using the values from the original post, this is how it comes out:

red+blue with socket bonus:
32.41 points + 6 stamina

yellow+yellow (no bonus)
34.3 points

Any thougts if that little difference is worth sacrificing for 6 stamina? I do not need the blue gems for any meta bonus atm.
#482SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0KasumiRevy
Originally Posted by Vulajin View Post
There is not sufficient data to substantiate any estimates of Executioner's DPS value, the proc rate has not been established for certain. If you'd like to provide some data, I'd recommend looking at [Raid] Executioner vs. Mongoose, preliminary numbers.
It's not even that simple, armor penetration from what i've been looking into does not work in any linier fashion, there are
benchmarks where the dps seems greater or smaller. To impact this even more armor values vary from target to target,
and you can cap it, on some targets and waste some of the armor penetration stat, and others will still not be hitting the cap. (0 armor)

I'm working on stacking the armor penetration and my impression if you can stack expertise/hit/atk power/crit/ and haste on top of strong armor penetration your going to find the magic dps numbers as a rogue.

Executioner is a good enchant, and better on someone that has larger amounts of armor penetration (sub rogues pay attention) , much like weaponskill was, it's a tricky stat and not easy to get real dps numbers on, it's ever changing.
#483SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Oscarvil
How about a section on Macros and Addons?

I use Discodice for timing Slice and Dice and Rupture. I used to use an energy ticker mod for pvp but I found with my ping it wasn't that useful. Mutilate Crit is useful when specced mutilate, and I used a mod to time Find Weakness (since it's not covered in Discodice) but I can't remember what it was. Cooldown count is great for showing your cooldowns on your UI bars.

The only macro I currently use is for deadly throw.

/cast Deadly throw
/cast Throw

It's quite primitive and a short search of the WoW general forums turned up this more sophisticated one

#showtooltip Deadly Throw
/cast Deadly Throw
/cast [Equipped:Thrown] Throw;Shoot

Which will probably give an error when trying to cast deadly throw with a non-thrown weapon equipped. Maybe not the most useful in a raid situation but I find more and more in heroics and solo that I'm liking to have the ranged snare for runners.

Macroing trinkets together with Blade Flurry is quite nice too since most (all?) on use trinkets don't affect the GCD.

/cast Abacus of Violent Odds
/cast Blade Flurry

Which will cast the trinket the immediately cast Blade Flurry. If you have 2 on use trinkets you can add a second one to the macro too, the only drawback is that if it shares a cooldown you will get a message that the item is not ready, and if it doesn't you will need to press the macro button 2 times to activate it properly.

Are there any others that people find useful?
#484SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Scheme
I use this for poisons, and place them on an action bar. Rightclicking applies the poison to the offhand, leftclicking to the mainhand:

#showtooltip Deadly Poison VII
/use Deadly Poison VII
/use [button:2] 17; 16
#485SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Leden
Do mutilate builds rely as heavily on hit as combat builds?

I've found a few scattered Mutilate posts throughout various threads however I haven't been able to find anything that delves into the subtle differences that makes a mutilate build different from a combat build. After a little research I realized different mutilate is from a build like combat swords.

When I realized that Enhancement shaman don't rely as stongly on Hit as rogues do because most of their damage comes from their specials, windfury and stormstrike, I started thinking about Mutilate and my personal dps. From my research so far I've come to understand that Combat Swords generates 60-64% dps from white attacks, and roughly 20-25% from Sinister Strike. There is a bit of a difference when looking at mutilate. 49-53% is from white attacks and generally 30-35% is from mutilate. Granted this isn't a huge difference, 10% is still enough damage to merit looking into the subject of hit vs crit. (Mutilate Data is from personal data obtained from total damage done in Karazan with 209 hit rating and 24.59% crit. Unbuffed.)

I'm sitting at my old man's place on his work laptop and can't pull up the rogue spreadsheet to check dps with certain gear however I look forward to discussing this more in depth. I would have really liked to make this a new post, however I'm new to the forums and cant make a seperate post. At least I picked the right thread to theory craft in eh?
#486SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Leden
Originally Posted by Scheme View Post
I use this for poisons, and place them on an action bar. Rightclicking applies the poison to the offhand, leftclicking to the mainhand:

#showtooltip Deadly Poison VII
/use Deadly Poison VII
/use [button:2] 17; 16
Auto-bar does this as well, allowing you to Left or right click on the poisons to apply it to the respective (mainhand or offhand.)
#487SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Vulajin
Originally Posted by Leden View Post
I've found a few scattered Mutilate posts throughout various threads however I haven't been able to find anything that delves into the subtle differences that makes a mutilate build different from a combat build. After a little research I realized different mutilate is from a build like combat swords.

When I realized that Enhancement shaman don't rely as stongly on Hit as rogues do because most of their damage comes from their specials, windfury and stormstrike, I started thinking about Mutilate and my personal dps. From my research so far I've come to understand that Combat Swords generates 60-64% dps from white attacks, and roughly 20-25% from Sinister Strike. There is a bit of a difference when looking at mutilate. 49-53% is from white attacks and generally 30-35% is from mutilate. Granted this isn't a huge difference, 10% is still enough damage to merit looking into the subject of hit vs crit. (Mutilate Data is from personal data obtained from total damage done in Karazan with 209 hit rating and 24.59% crit. Unbuffed.)

I'm sitting at my old man's place on his work laptop and can't pull up the rogue spreadsheet to check dps with certain gear however I look forward to discussing this more in depth. I would have really liked to make this a new post, however I'm new to the forums and cant make a seperate post. At least I picked the right thread to theory craft in eh?
So, there are two reasons why Mutilate should be less reliant on hit rating than other builds. The first is the one you mentioned, a slightly greater reliance on yellow damage. The second is that Mutilate will rely on neither Combat Potency nor Sword Specialization, which are the primary drivers behind the strength of hit rating. Losing some hit rating, as long as you're hit-capped for specials, won't affect your cycles in the least, and it won't impact your white DPS as much as it would for a combat sword build.

Crit rating, on the other hand, will not only boost your white and yellow damage, but also increase your likelihood of Seal Fate procs, thereby improving your cycles. In some ways, crit is to Mutilate builds as hit is to combat builds. The difference, of course, lies in the fact that hit rating is still far cheaper itemization cost per 1%. Will crit surpass hit rating? Of that, I have no way to be sure. I don't trust the Seal Fate models built into the DPS spreadsheet, and I don't have any confidence in myself to make an accurate Seal Fate model.

However, we can look at agility and realize that this stat will likely retain similar usefulness for Mutilate builds to what it has for any other build (with a possible increase due to the crit benefit to Seal Fate). I would hypothesize, completely without basis, that a Mutilate build would favor [Delicate Living Ruby] and [Glinting Noble Topaz], with the latter used only to fill yellow sockets for socket bonuses.

Please do contest this hypothesis if you have any reasonable basis on which to do so, as I'd hate to be spouting misinformation in my own thread.
#488SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Leden
Originally Posted by Vulajin View Post
So, there are two reasons why Mutilate should be less reliant on hit rating than other builds. The first is the one you mentioned, a slightly greater reliance on yellow damage. The second is that Mutilate will rely on neither Combat Potency nor Sword Specialization, which are the primary drivers behind the strength of hit rating. Losing some hit rating, as long as you're hit-capped for specials, won't affect your cycles in the least, and it won't impact your white DPS as much as it would for a combat sword build.

Crit rating, on the other hand, will not only boost your white and yellow damage, but also increase your likelihood of Seal Fate procs, thereby improving your cycles. In some ways, crit is to Mutilate builds as hit is to combat builds. The difference, of course, lies in the fact that hit rating is still far cheaper itemization cost per 1%. Will crit surpass hit rating? Of that, I have no way to be sure. I don't trust the Seal Fate models built into the DPS spreadsheet, and I don't have any confidence in myself to make an accurate Seal Fate model.

However, we can look at agility and realize that this stat will likely retain similar usefulness for Mutilate builds to what it has for any other build (with a possible increase due to the crit benefit to Seal Fate). I would hypothesize, completely without basis, that a Mutilate build would favor [Delicate Living Ruby] and [Glinting Noble Topaz], with the latter used only to fill yellow sockets for socket bonuses.

Please do contest this hypothesis if you have any reasonable basis on which to do so, as I'd hate to be spouting misinformation in my own thread.
I don't have any way to contest that hypothesis. I do question your claim that hit won't affect your white damage as much as combat swords. I understand that hit is vitally important for combat swords due to sword spec in particular. However I have to say that I would question the overall damage loss from dropping hit. Now I just have to further test this. Kara is clear so I don't think I'll be raiding substanially until next tuesday. However I'll look into that more. I know I'd really like to drop the hit on my gear in favor of getting more agil if it really won't affect my damage much. I suppose I could go out to the blasted lands and test it, however I don't have a ton of gold to spend resocketing my gear. Any suggestions?
#489SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0panny
Originally Posted by Leden View Post
I've found a few scattered Mutilate posts throughout various threads however I haven't been able to find anything that delves into the subtle differences that makes a mutilate build different from a combat build. After a little research I realized different mutilate is from a build like combat swords.

When I realized that Enhancement shaman don't rely as stongly on Hit as rogues do because most of their damage comes from their specials, windfury and stormstrike, I started thinking about Mutilate and my personal dps. From my research so far I've come to understand that Combat Swords generates 60-64% dps from white attacks, and roughly 20-25% from Sinister Strike. There is a bit of a difference when looking at mutilate. 49-53% is from white attacks and generally 30-35% is from mutilate. Granted this isn't a huge difference, 10% is still enough damage to merit looking into the subject of hit vs crit. (Mutilate Data is from personal data obtained from total damage done in Karazan with 209 hit rating and 24.59% crit. Unbuffed.)

I'm sitting at my old man's place on his work laptop and can't pull up the rogue spreadsheet to check dps with certain gear however I look forward to discussing this more in depth. I would have really liked to make this a new post, however I'm new to the forums and cant make a seperate post. At least I picked the right thread to theory craft in eh?
Alot of shaman DPS (pre 2.3) still came from white damage. However, simulations still favoured strength over hit. Warriors recently had a similar move away from hit. I'd say that the main reasons +hit is so good for Rogues isn't the percentage of total damage that is white, but Sword Spec and Combat Potency.
#490SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Leden
Originally Posted by panny View Post
Alot of shaman DPS (pre 2.3) still came from white damage. However, simulations still favoured strength over hit. Warriors recently had a similar move away from hit. I'd say that the main reasons +hit is so good for Rogues isn't the percentage of total damage that is white, but Sword Spec and Combat Potency.
Right. Talking to a good friend of mine Kathil, an enchancement shaman prompted me to come here and further pursue this idea. I'm starting to see a trend here. I see why so many rogues push for hit. For combat it is such a big part of thier damage due of combat potency and sword spec. I didn't really understand that was the reason until just a little while ago. I am extremely curious to see how my damage would differ if I replaced some of my hit gear with more ap / crit oriented stats. Are there any Mutilate rogues who are in T5 who have experience with this?

Last edited by Leden : 11/23/07 at 1:39 AM.
#491SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0nero
Originally Posted by Leden View Post
Right. Talking to a good friend of mine Kathil, an enchancement shaman prompted me to come here and further pursue this idea. I'm starting to see a trend here. I see why so many rogues push for hit. For combat it is such a big part of thier damage due of combat potency and sword spec. I didn't really understand that was the reason until just a little while ago. I am extremely curious to see how my damage would differ if I replaced some of my hit gear with more ap / crit oriented stats. Are there any Mutilate rogues who are in T5 who have experience with this?
Crit is to mut as hit is to combat is a good way to put it (i think it was mentioned before)

obviously more crit means more CP just as more hit does with combat potency(more energy = more cp!)

Personally i would imagine increasing hit up to a certain level (lower than that of combat by a substantial amount) would increase dps just because hit is so abundant on gear and the amount of item points it costs is alot less than crit.

Would speculation of gemming all agy/crit instead of hit (and just use the hit you get from the actual gear,) to maximise mut dps be correct?
#492SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Leden
Originally Posted by nero View Post
Crit is to mut as hit is to combat is a good way to put it (i think it was mentioned before)

obviously more crit means more CP just as more hit does with combat potency(more energy = more cp!)

Personally i would imagine increasing hit up to a certain level (lower than that of combat by a substantial amount) would increase dps just because hit is so abundant on gear and the amount of item points it costs is alot less than crit.

Would speculation of gemming all agy/crit instead of hit (and just use the hit you get from the actual gear,) to maximise mut dps be correct?


In theory gemming agil / crit would maximize the dps, however as Vulajin posted above...


Originally Posted by Vulajin View Post
The difference, of course, lies in the fact that hit rating is still far cheaper itemization cost per 1%.
Socketing Crit is going to cost more than socketing hit, and if the difference is marginal it might hurt more than help to replace those gems. I wonder what the spread would look like when Agil / crit becomes the focus over hit. I can speculate that white damage will drop due to more misses, and mutilate damage will incease overall due to increased AP and crit.
#493SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Azaziel
I think what he refered to was socketing agility over hit and through agility gain crit, not socketing crit gems.
#494SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Leden
Originally Posted by Azaziel View Post
I think what he refered to was socketing agility over hit and through agility gain crit, not socketing crit gems.
I dunno...

Originally Posted by nero View Post
Would speculation of gemming all agy/crit instead of hit...
Kinda seems like he's saying Gem Agil & crit. lol Anyway that's redunant, it's the obvious choice to gem Agil over straight crit if possible.
#495SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0ulrikft
Just a quick thank you: After reading the first post, realizing how clueless i was with my 147 hit rating, I regemmed and got some new gear, and even with the small improvement that I've got in a few days (about 170-180 hit now i think) I notice a dps increase! good times
#496SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0nero
Remind me to not post inbetween when i am busy serving customers at work -_-'

With regards to socketing agy/crit, i was under the impression that a yellow socket would have to be an 8 critical strike rating, however I forgot there is a 4 Agility, 4 hit rating orange gem which would be much better
#497SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Klevar
First, Nero, don't post between customers =P

Second, I agree on using the +4HR/+4 Agi gems (as most of mine are) I have seen a significant increase in dmg going up the HR scale (I'm at 301 right now) as Combat Daggers.
#498SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Gogu
Non-combat PvE ? Works in theory, does it in practice?

Hello, I'm new around here. I've been playing rogue ever since so I decided I'd contribute. I'll get straight to the point and after make some comments on my part. I am sorry if I missed a post about this and I repeat myself but I couldn't find it with the search option and I just ended up tired of reading 20 pages of posts. Anyhow...

I've been thinking about a non-combat PvE build and I came up with an idea. Pre-2.3 it was 40/0/21 and after 38/0/23 (Click on respectable point allocation for a link to WoWhead calculator).

Anyhow the general idea is to sustain Find Weakness 95-100% of the time fighting by generating an insane amount of combo points with the least required energy. Hemorrhage + Seal Fate.

After the patch it became apparent to me that this build would be stronger just by the fact that Hemorrhage has been buffed and it gives you the option to take new Dirty Deeds in a PvE-Spec.

I also decided that taking Ashtongue Talisman of Lethality (20% per combo point for 145 critical rating for 10 secs) would work wonders if I could sustain Find Weakness so I could sustain the trinkets buff for the same duration. It would boost Seal Fate since I'd get more critical rating, which would mean I get more combo points and then the more combo points I get the easier to keep up the 145 crit rating buff.

I am not exactly sure how essential the trinket is. Also I decided that using up maximum of combo points would be the way to invent a particular cycle. I tested it and decided it is/should be possible to keep up a 5 SnD / 5 Rupture / 5 Evi cycle. I would use double rupture but the first one won't end it's duration so I am forced to use Eviscerate. I decided to test it and it worked if I did start with 5 CP, waited up for near maximum energy and then hit Hemo 3-4 times to get 5 CPs again, use finisher and wait a moment again. This way I can do both Rupture and Eviscerate in the duration of 5 point SnD and keep the SnD up all the time. Both finishers are buffed - Improved Evi, Serrated Blades.

Additional benefit is shortened cooldown on Vanish. Well you can make your own opinion by just looking at the both builds - of course the points distributed between poisons can be changed accordingly.

Next step I took was using DPS Spreadsheet to check if this could be possible (I am not aware how accurately Hemorrhage mechanics are calculated there).
The results of my experiments in the DPS Spreadsheet are as follow.
Let us start with regular sword combat build and I'll show differences accordingly:

If 20/41/0 is 1000 DPS then: (1000 DPS is a random value, just to show the difference in the following)

0/31/30 - 1020 DPS (Sword+Hemo, Adrenaline, Preparation, Deadliness)

38/0/23 - 1036 DPS (The build suggested in this post above)

Those were the results I acquired by DPS Spreadsheet which point out that with my gear I would gain 36 DPS by using this build. Also in my calculations I didn't include the fact of using Ashtongue Talisman of Lethality since I decided that it would add a blunt number to my DPS not including a specific build/dps-cycle. Unfortunately I didn't bother to check what cycle did the Spreadsheet suggest so it is possible that there might be a better cycle than the one I suggested as well as it is possible that the usage of Ashtongue Talisman of Lethality is not the best choice/is not necessary (though it helps to keep up my cycle and works wonders in combination with Seal Fate which results in easier generation of combo points).

Honestly I can't tell how much of comparison to other builds it is just by myself. I came up with it but I tested the 2.3 version of build in Zul'Aman where bosses have little HP which mitigates the Dirty Deeds talent due to the simple fact of the 35% of the boss HP "lasting" shorter during the fight. Also in Zul'Aman there was no other rogue to compare myself with. The pre-2.3 build was tested on Gurtogg Bloodboil on which I was actually first (I had no Fel Rage) but the boss might be considered random so I am not sure if it is a good test object.

I would appreciate if someone could test it, comment, give me some feedback on the build.
If you are interested as to how I achieved the numbers (DPS stat) here is a link to my gear - WickedWrath's Gear
As you can see I'm nearing the hit cap and I can use Spicy Hot Talbuk - Possibly different stat allocation would work better for this build since I think hit is not as essential to this build.

Last edited by Gogu : 11/24/07 at 11:49 AM.
#499SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Jays
This was brought up in the Hemo vs Combat point of inflection thread.

Check out this page Here and also the next page with one really relevant post showing Dps numbers vs tidewalker with 31/0/30. Though there hasn't been much discussion about these builds mainly I think because of the spreadsheets inability to model Seal Fate correctly which has been mentioned multiple times. Who knows test out the build and save combat logs with a few hundred thousand hits so that the smart people in this forum can tell us what to do.
#500SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Stabmaster
Originally Posted by Jays View Post
the spreadsheets inability to model Seal Fate correctly which has been mentioned multiple times
Yep. Any build with Seal Fate in it will show largely inflated numbers on those DPS spreadsheets. It isn't modeled correctly, and is very hard to model in any case.
#501SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Aldriana
I don't think SF is fundamentally *that* hard to model; it's just that one sheet has a bug in it that causes it to give invalid results, and the other hasn't bothered to implement high-end assassination talents yet (more due to Mutilate than SF, in reality)
#502SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Stabmaster
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
I don't think SF is fundamentally *that* hard to model; it's just that one sheet has a bug in it that causes it to give invalid results, and the other hasn't bothered to implement high-end assassination talents yet (more due to Mutilate than SF, in reality)
The fact that neither has modeled it correctly tells me it is non-trivial
#503SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Aldriana
Well, that's a fair point, I suppose. I can't speak for the DPS sheet, but, speaking for the Gear sheet: I have a pretty good idea how to go about implementing it; it just strikes me as a low-priority feature, so I haven't bothered.
#504SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 songster
It's trivial to model, at least in the average case where you get the expected number of crits per cycle. The problem is that such a model is irrelevant in the real world.

Look at is this way, taking a generic 5s/5r cycle, you need to build 10 combo points per cycle. Leaving aside Ruthlessness for the moment, with a crit rate of 25%, that corresponds roughly to 8 combo point building abilities, with the other two combo points coming from Seal Fate. (8 * 1.25 = 10). However, if all 8 of your attacks fail to crit, you end up seriously combo-point starved - your s'n'd may drop off, losing you a lot of damage. What is the chance of this? It's 0.75 ^ 8 = 10%. So 1 in 10 of your cycles will be screwed up due to non-crit streaks. Conversely, what do you do when you're on 4 combo points? Do you build for a 5th, and haved a 25% chance of wasting a combo point from a Seal Fate proc? Or do you only ever use low-combo-point finishers and thus waste energy?

The key point is that deep assassination builds (i.e. anything including Seal Fate, whether that's SF/Hemo, Mutilate, or any other weird build) can't be modelled as a succession of identical cycles. What you do in each "cycle" will depend critically on how many crits you happen to have during that cycle. This is a fatal issue for both the existing spreadsheets, since they depend entirely on modelling an average cycle.
#505SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Dontmindme
Originally Posted by songster View Post
It's trivial to model, at least in the average case where you get the expected number of crits per cycle. The problem is that such a model is irrelevant in the real world.

Look at is this way, taking a generic 5s/5r cycle, you need to build 10 combo points per cycle. Leaving aside Ruthlessness for the moment, with a crit rate of 25%, that corresponds roughly to 8 combo point building abilities, with the other two combo points coming from Seal Fate. (8 * 1.25 = 10). However, if all 8 of your attacks fail to crit, you end up seriously combo-point starved - your s'n'd may drop off, losing you a lot of damage. What is the chance of this? It's 0.75 ^ 8 = 10%. So 1 in 10 of your cycles will be screwed up due to non-crit streaks. Conversely, what do you do when you're on 4 combo points? Do you build for a 5th, and haved a 25% chance of wasting a combo point from a Seal Fate proc? Or do you only ever use low-combo-point finishers and thus waste energy?

The key point is that deep assassination builds (i.e. anything including Seal Fate, whether that's SF/Hemo, Mutilate, or any other weird build) can't be modelled as a succession of identical cycles. What you do in each "cycle" will depend critically on how many crits you happen to have during that cycle. This is a fatal issue for both the existing spreadsheets, since they depend entirely on modelling an average cycle.
But the same can be said for any of the modeling. Your cycles get screwed up from lack of Combat Potency procs, or whether Relentlessness doesn't proc in a non-5-point cycle, or based on the 60% on finishers. Yet these do not really affect the modeling all that much. Good players adjust their cycles on the fly and it still approximates the damage fairly accurately. I certainly wouldn't call these fatal issues and they are not unique to Seal Fate. I would think the only effect that calls for extra modeling is the lost combo point possibility. To be honest, it's also not hard to model. It wouldn't be that hard to model a 4-5s/4-5r cycle either, just it hasn't been done yet.
#506SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Vulajin
Originally Posted by songster View Post
But the same can be said for any of the modeling. Your cycles get screwed up from lack of Combat Potency procs, or whether Relentlessness doesn't proc in a non-5-point cycle, or based on the 60% on finishers. Yet these do not really affect the modeling all that much. Good players adjust their cycles on the fly and it still approximates the damage fairly accurately. I certainly wouldn't call these fatal issues and they are not unique to Seal Fate. I would think the only effect that calls for extra modeling is the lost combo point possibility. To be honest, it's also not hard to model. It wouldn't be that hard to model a 4-5s/4-5r cycle either, just it hasn't been done yet.
The thing is, Relentless Strikes and Ruthlessness are only one chance of proc/no-proc per finisher in the cycle. Combat Potency has enough chances to proc during a cycle that it's usually pretty rare to experience "bad luck" of the kind that drastically harms your cycle. On the other hand, let's look at how many different ways there are to generate "4+" CP with Hemorrhage and Seal Fate, and the variance between them (assume a 30% crit rate for simplicity):

- Ruthlessness does not proc, you crit twice (7.0s, 4 CP, 40% x 30% x 30% = 3.6%)
- Ruthlessness does not proc, you crit once, you hit once, you crit again (10.5s, 5 CP, 40% x 30% x 70% x 30% = 2.52%)
- Ruthlessness does not proc, you hit once, you crit twice (10.5s, 5 CP, 40% x 70% x 30% x 30% = 2.52%)
- Ruthlessness does not proc, you crit once, you hit twice (10.5s, 4 CP, 40% x 30% x 70% x 70% = 5.88%)
- Ruthlessness does not proc, you hit once, you crit once, you hit again (10.5s, 4 CP, 40% x 70% x 30% x 70% = 5.88%)
- Ruthlessness does not proc, you hit twice, you crit once (10.5s, 4 CP, 40% x 70% x 70% x 30% = 5.88%)
- Ruthlessness does not proc, you hit three times, you crit once (14.0s, 5 CP, 40% x 70% x 70% x 70% x 30% = 4.116%)
- Ruthlessness does not proc, you hit four times (14.0s, 4 CP, 40% x 70% x 70% x 70% x 70% = 9.604%)
- Ruthlessness procs, you crit twice (7.0s, 5 CP, 60% x 30% x 30% = 5.4%)
- Ruthlessness procs, you crit once, you hit once (7.0s, 4 CP, 60% x 30% x 70% = 12.6%)
- Ruthlessness procs, you hit once, you crit once (7.0s, 4 CP, 60% x 70% x 30% = 12.6%)
- Ruthlessness procs, you hit twice, you crit once (10.5s, 5 CP, 60% x 70% x 70% x 30% = 8.82%)
- Ruthlessness procs, you hit three times (10.5s, 4 CP, 60% x 70% x 70% x 70% = 20.58%)

This portion of the cycle can vary in lengthy by as much as 7 seconds. If the entire cycle being used is (4+)s/(4+)r, for example, then the whole thing can vary by as much as 14 seconds, while the Slice will only be either 18s or 21s. Roughly 1.88% of the time, you will have a 28.0s (assuming Relentless Strikes procs on both finishers) cycle with huge Slice downtime. Another ~11.70% of the time, you will have a 14.0s (again, assuming Relentless Strikes) cycle with a sizable chunk of wasted Slice time. A pretty good amount of the time (~36.51%), your cycle will be roughly 21.0s, but the Slice will vary between dropping too early and staying up just long enough. Other durations are possible: 17.5s (where your Slice will always be wasted a bit) and 24.5s (where you'll never sustain Slice).

The overall level of variance between the different possible cycles means that computing an "average case" cycle where Seal Fate gives you 1.3 CP per Hemo and you get 0.6 CP per finisher and 5 energy back per CP used on the finisher is not going to accurately model it. But let's take a look at that model anyway, assuming we want to run 5s/5r:

10 CP - 0.6 * 2 = 8.8 CP
8.8 CP / 1.3 CP = ~6.77 Hemos
~6.77 x 35 = ~236.92 energy
Finisher energy = 0
Cycle duration = 23.69s
Slice uptime = 88.64%

But this can't possibly be accurate, because in reality each Hemo is not going to generate 1.3 CP, and things won't line up this perfectly. Even for normal cycles, this kind of modeling is inaccurate to some degree. The reason is that some iterations of your cycle will be fast enough that some of your Slice will be wasted, meaning your Slice uptime is technically over 100%. This kind of modeling that doesn't figure in the individual possible cycles will allow those "Slice uptime over 100%" iterations to increase the average Slice uptime estimate above what it should be. For a cycle with only Ruthlessness and Relentless Strikes, this effect is very minimal (to check this, I wrote a spreadsheet that calculated every possible combination of Ruthlessness/Relentless Strikes procs for some of the common cycles, and all of the numbers it provided for Slice and Rupture uptime were quite close to the estimates we can make using the above "average case" cycle method). However, for a Seal Fate cycle where the duration of the cycle may vary a lot and even the Slice duration may vary, the "average case" method is not going to be anywhere near as accurate.

What we need is a model that accounts for every possible combination of procs/no-procs and the resulting cycle duration and Slice duration in a (4+)s/(4+)r cycle. Either way I'm pretty sure it wouldn't work out to be anywhere near as good as a standard Hemo build with combat talents. The point of Seal Fate is to improve the cycles you can run; since you'll give up Imp SnD in order to pick up Seal Fate, your cycles are essentially going to have to stay the same just so that you can keep Slice up.
#507SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0ekval
Originally Posted by Gogu View Post
I've been thinking about a non-combat PvE build and I came up with an idea. Pre-2.3 it was 40/0/21 and after 38/0/23 (Click on respectable point allocation for a link to WoWhead calculator).
I'm quite sure 31/0/30 SF + Hemo + 5/5 Deadliness spec is far better than 3/5 Find Weakness variation. These specs look good on paper but in practice they don't work well enough (PvE).
#508SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Raynforce
Hi all,

I just needed to clarify something about Sword spec. I understand when sword spec procs on OH it triggers a MH swing. I'm using fist/sword. so my OH sword procs my MH fist swing with 5% crit on it due to fist spec. So this spec comes out with slightly higher DPS because my fist has 5% crit on it right?

What I needed to know is what happens if my MH is sword too. Does my MH proc another MH swing as well? If MH and OH procs MH attacks only ( OH never gets an extra swing from SS ), isn't MH and OH sword superior to MH fist / OH sword?

Also, I heard rumors that this has been corrected in patch 2.3 but on my combat logs, my OH sword still procs my MH fist so I assume nothing has been changed at all. Am I right?

Last edited by Raynforce : 11/27/07 at 1:28 PM.
#509SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Dontmindme
But the same can be said for Combat Potency. Lucky streaks mean extra SnD time or quicker cuts, yet no one seems to want to claim that is an "irrelevant" model, to use your own words. Nor would I consider it a "fatal issue". People still use the spreadsheets to model their DPS in fights where you need to run in and out. This cuts up all the cycles. Still the spreadsheet, using averages, can still approximate relative DPS. You could also try to make a similar chart for Combat Potency charts and show all the extra SnD time wasted when every offhand procs energy in a cycle.

Now, that said, I'm not clear what the current modeling is and whether it accounts at all for wasted CPs while giving full benefit of a 5r cycle. On the other hand, if the sheet had a model for 4r cycles, one could conceivably adjust one's cycle to the time remaining, dropping down to 3r or up to 5r when appropriate to minimize the streakiness. This would account for most of the various uptime options.

My main gripe is the way you have chosen to just throw out the spreadsheet data because of one perceived flaw. Combat Potency is flawed similarly, maybe we should just throw that out too. And most fights you can't just stand there, so let's throw the entire sheet out.

Assuming that Seal Fate is modeled correctly, it should still provide a decent enough approximation.
#510SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Shaker
The main issue is that given a rogue being reasonably attentive, you can always use the extra energy from Combat Potency, even if it's just to add another SS when you're at 5 CP, or get a 3CP SnD, so while it does break up your cycles, IN GENERAL, the additional effect is not WASTED - you get a longer SnD, buying you slack for later on, that you may cut, or you may need. In other words, there is built in balances for the ebb and flow of the randomness of Combat Potency which reduce the inaccuracy and make an average model more accurate and tolerable.

Seal fate, when it procs and you have 4cp, completely wastes the extra point. There's no recovery mechanism, you don't just get to hold onto it and put it into your next cycle, it's gone.

Vulajin put a pretty nice, LONG post detailing why SF was very difficult to model and none of it boiled down to "waahhh it's too hard and I don't want to" which is what your response seems to entail he said.

The other MAJOR factor for Seal Fate not being modelled is that it just ISN'T putting out the DPS - Mut builds, 30/0/30 + 1 builds, they all fall a bit flat - is it because we haven't discovered "the secret" that makes them good? Maaaybe - but you'd think we'd see a lot more "I can do 1400+ DPS in my mixmatch T4/T5 gear as Mutilate" style posts if it was just that people needed to learn to play Mut. I've seen some GOOD rogues play as Mut, and they still fall behind. I don't discount the possibility that we're just missing something, but the fact that we haven't seen that stuff yet leads us to believe that it isn't optimal - so modelling it is just theorycraft masturbation, and while there is PLENTY of that around here, no doubt, demanding that other people do it for you is just lame.
#511SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 arasai
Okay, so I did some searching on here and couldn't find anything so I'm asking.

How does the DPS of a 11/27/23 build compare to typical combat swords? Using the main DPS spreadsheet I get an increase in overall DPS by like 20 with my current gear... but people still say combat swords takes the cake.
#512SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Vulajin
Originally Posted by arasai View Post
Okay, so I did some searching on here and couldn't find anything so I'm asking.

How does the DPS of a 11/27/23 build compare to typical combat swords? Using the main DPS spreadsheet I get an increase in overall DPS by like 20 with my current gear... but people still say combat swords takes the cake.
You obviously didn't search very hard, as the answer is given in the first post of this thread. Also, you'd better fill out your profile, unless you want to get banned.
#513SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
 Aldriana
So, all of what has been said here regarding SF is true: there are certainly logistical difficulties with running SF. It is harder to model than some of the other talents... I just dispute assertions of the form "I wouldn't trust any spreadsheet model of it, ever". It's true, none of the existing spreadsheets handle it. It's true, it would take a fair amount of work to model - more than for other talents. But neither of those means that it wouldn't be possible to write a spreadsheet that *does* model it.

For instance, lets look at Vulajin's handy table regarding CP generation for 4+ CP cycles in SF/Hemo. Now, there's a lot of different possibilities there, and a lot of different probabilities to keep track of. But, on the other hand: it's also a well-defined distribution. How long does it take to get 4+ CPs? Well, 9% of the time it takes 7.0 seconds, and 13.7% of the time it takes 14.0 seconds, and the other 77.3% of the time it takes 10.5 seconds. How many combo points do you wind up with? Well, if it took 7 seconds to get them, it is 60% likely that you have 5 CPs and 40% likely that you have 4 CPs. If it took 14.0 seconds to get them, it is 100% likely that you have 5 CPs. And if it took 10.5 seconds to get them... well, I'm not going to actually work it out, but you get the idea. Well, now we just have 5 different cases to work through and the probability that each occurs. From here it's not that hard to work through all the probabilities.

Scaling it back a level: it's true, using straight averages doesn't quite work. And trying to set up a perfectly sustainable cycle is an exercise in frustration, because it generally doesn't work. So one simply models it the way you'd actually do the cycle in real life: you perform some standard sequence of moves, see how many CPs you have left, see how much SnD uptime you have, and figure out what to do next.

So, in this case: my proposed cycle is as follows: you must always keep 100% SnD uptime, and you do a 4+ CP Rupture after each time you do a 4pt SnD. So, most of the time, you're just running 4+s/4+r. However, if you get an unlucky string of procs and after your rupture is performed you don't have 4+CP before your SnD is about to expire - you use a smaller SnD, followed by building up CPs to get a new 4+CP SnD, and then go back to the regular cycle. If you get a lucky string of procs that get you to 4+CP before you need to refresh SnD, you save up some energy to use in the next cycle.

Well, that sounds like an awful mess, right? Well, no, not really. Since we have the probability distributions for the number of combo points generated and the amount of time it takes to get them, it's not really that hard to work out the probability that each event above happens. You figure out the probability that you have to throw in an extra SnD in a given cycle, and you figure out the probability that you have to refresh SnD early to avoid energy capping in a given cycle, and from this you can work out pretty easily how many ruptures you're going to be able to fit in a given period of time, at which point the problem is solved. Is there a lot of bookkeeping to do? Yes. Would the calculation page in the Rogue Gear Spreadsheet for this be 1000 lines long instead of 400? Probably. But is there anything here that prevents such a model from being made? No. So, again: it's a harder problem, and it's a messy problem, and for these reasons (as well as Shaker's observation that it's just theorycraft masturbation since it's almost certain to be found inferior in the end) it hasn't been done yet. But there's absolutely no reason why it *couldn't* be done.

Last edited by Aldriana : 11/27/07 at 4:29 PM.
#514SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 arasai
Don't blame me if the forum software's search feature is subpar...

I don't see the answer anyplace on your first post. The closest you have is an 11/28/22 build, which trades one point in
sword space with one point in dirty deeds. This trade off is actually a fairly large amount of DPS if you go by the spreadsheets, and if that's the build you're using for your numbers in the DPS comparison listed above then you might want to take another look and see if a recalculation is in order.

The actual answer I was looking for was a new post in the Combat/Hemo thread.

In 25 man raids combat seems to edge over hemo because the charges vanish before you can reapply it... but this is in part due to a bug, so I guess I'll wait and see when its fixed.
#515SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Latito
Originally Posted by arasai View Post
Okay, so I did some searching on here and couldn't find anything so I'm asking.

How does the DPS of a 11/27/23 build compare to typical combat swords?
You did not look very hard. [Rogue]The Combat vs Hemo Point of Inflection




Originally Posted by arasai View Post
How does the DPS of a 11/27/23 build compare to typical combat swords?
Originally Posted by arasai View Post
Using the main DPS spreadsheet I get an increase in overall DPS by like 20 with my current gear
I would say it increases your personal DPS by ~20. Ok.. so that was a bit mean. Generally you'll find you get more dps out of Combat Swords personally, but slightly more raid dps by going hemo. This is also, generally, only true for the first 1-2 rogues. After that, the debuff usage % isn't high enough.. again, in general.

If the Spreadsheet is giving you a higher personal dps with hemo - likely you have either lowish hit and/or lowish haste - two stats which scale much better for combat potency than any hemo-build talent. Also, which spreadsheet did you use? Rogue DPS or Rogue gear? In the DPS spreadsheet there are some checkboxes for hemo - if you set them up wrong you will get an incorrect dps value. I believe the correct way to configure them is somewhere within the last ~2 days worth of posts on this thread or the one I linked above... maybe the Rogue Gear Spreadsheet.. I dunno.
#516SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Dontmindme
Shaker, you completely missed my point. I pointed out that Combat Potency has the same flaws, you even stated it yourself. It procs a lot you can cut it short. Well, every time you are cutting it shorter than modeled on the spreadsheet is changing your damage relative to the spreadsheet model in a negative way. Nevertheless, you can still model it. Yet, you call such "theorycraft masturbation", Vulajin calls all such averages "irrelevant". Yet, these averages can still approximate the results. Just because a post is lengthy or even detailed, doesn't make it completely right. Vulajin used an example with Relentless Strikes and Ruthlessness modeling, but you notice his example excluded Combat Potency. Combat Potency's randomness will also screw up cycles. How many times have people ended up with 5 seconds or more left to cut on SnD? That's not the same as the expected model on the spreadsheet and there is wasted SnD energy unmodeled by the sheet. Cycle times can fluctuate greatly with Combat Potency as well (at least as a percentage of the cycle time). Yet, dps in action seems to at least approximate Combat Swords.

Now if you want to know why I think all the builds are falling short, quite simply I think there is a bug in the spreadsheet with combo point modeling. Let me give you an example, I was playing around with numbers, wanted to get an approximation of the value of 4-piece T4, so I forced it on...and the spreadsheet said the DPS went down. Please explain to me how giving free Combo Points to a build actually decreases one's DPS.

Now, I never said I think the spreadsheet is posting the correct numbers, it clearly isn't. Hence, no Mutilate or Seal Fate builds getting anywhere close to the supposed theoretical DPS. I think this is the same issue with T4 4-piece modeling. I seem to remember old posts about plans to look into that problem, but no follow-up.

As to Seal Fate follow-up and no recovery, I gave you a recovery in my post, but you seemed not to read it. You accept 4 CP and not waste the combo points. How to play the Seal Fate/Hemo build seems pretty obvious. You cap SnD and Rupture/Evis when you have 4 or more CP so as not to waste any. You have extra SnD time, you let your energy regen a bit before finishing the cycle, hit it just before your energy fills up. You don't have enough, you cut the cycle off early and keep SnD up instead. It's really not as difficult as it seems. I just don't think the number coming out of the sheet are correct.

In summary, I still don't believe the average case will be that far off in practice, if a 4+s/4+r were modeled. It would not be "irrelevant" nor "theoretical masturbation", the problem is that the only sheet that tries to model Seal Fate seems flawed; either because it doesn't model 4r cycles or because there is a deeper calculation problem in the sheet.
#517SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Vulajin
Originally Posted by Dontmindme View Post
Shaker, you completely missed my point. I pointed out that Combat Potency has the same flaws, you even stated it yourself. It procs a lot you can cut it short. Well, every time you are cutting it shorter than modeled on the spreadsheet is changing your damage relative to the spreadsheet model in a negative way. Nevertheless, you can still model it. Yet, you call such "theorycraft masturbation", Vulajin calls all such averages "irrelevant". Yet, these averages can still approximate the results. Just because a post is lengthy or even detailed, doesn't make it completely right. Vulajin used an example with Relentless Strikes and Ruthlessness modeling, but you notice his example excluded Combat Potency. Combat Potency's randomness will also screw up cycles. How many times have people ended up with 5 seconds or more left to cut on SnD? That's not the same as the expected model on the spreadsheet and there is wasted SnD energy unmodeled by the sheet. Cycle times can fluctuate greatly with Combat Potency as well (at least as a percentage of the cycle time). Yet, dps in action seems to at least approximate Combat Swords.
I used neither the words "irrelevant" nor "fatal issue." Those are attributable to Songster.

I'm still not clear what exactly you're arguing against. No one has said that Seal Fate is not able to be modeled. What has been said is that the existing model is inaccurate, and that it is a pain in the ass to properly model it. Combat Potency is able to be modeled the way it is because the large number of trials (offhand swings) per cycle mean that your average performance will quite often fall close to the expected mean. Ruthlessness and Relentless Strikes technically should not be modeled that way, but based on my own spreadsheet (which models Ruthlessness and Relentless Strikes in the piecemeal fashion I described), modeling them as overall averages works just fine for all intents and purposes. Seal Fate cannot be modeled in the same way because the variance is much greater than that caused by either Ruthlessness or Relentless Strikes.
#518SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Aldriana
I think the "theorycraft masturbation" critique comes in due to the fact that SF builds are empirically inferior to the other options available; hence, constructing a detailed model for them accomplishes very little other than demonstrating that it is possible to model them, because any optimizations that could be gleaned from a detailed model would be dwarfed by the optimization of "spec combat". It's the same reason that not a lot of time is spent optimizing holy priest DPS - because there's just no good reason to use that spec in a raid environment.
#519SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
 Shaker
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
I think the "theorycraft masturbation" critique comes in due to the fact that SF builds are empirically inferior to the other options available; hence, constructing a detailed model for them accomplishes very little other than demonstrating that it is possible to model them, because any optimizations that could be gleaned from a detailed model would be dwarfed by the optimization of "spec combat". It's the same reason that not a lot of time is spent optimizing holy priest DPS - because there's just no good reason to use that spec in a raid environment.
That is exactly what I meant, and I believe Vulajin's longer post detailing exact probabilities with Seal Fate combo point acquisition does not account for combat potency because .. uhm, at least for the next 6 months or so, that build isn't possible.

Dontmindme, I suppose I am missing your point, because from all I can tell you're trying to get someone else to make a spreadsheet to model a cycle that isn't being reported correctly - if you're so on fire for it - do it. As Ald said above, for most of us, the response to "how do I improve my DPS as a rogue with Seal Fate" is "respec". IFF there exists some twist to playing SF and/or Mutilate builds that we're missing that makes them highly competitive with deep combat and combat/hemo builds, develop the concept, test it, bring your proof forward, and you will have a WORLD of interested parties.

It's not like we're all combat-nazis here, the moment Hemo became desmonstratably viable, there was a ton of work done to figure out how to optomize it and integrate it into the raid environment. I'm sure (at least personally) there would be just as much excitement over seeing deep assassination builds being brought into the fold as well.

Last edited by Shaker : 11/27/07 at 8:25 PM. Reason: clarification
#520SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Aldriana
In defense of SF, I can imagine one situation under which it might be potentially useful to play a deep assassination build. Consider: it's been calculated that Cat's Swiftness is better than 12 agi to boots provided that one spends at least 3% or so of the fight in motion. Hence, at 3% movement, we have 8% movement speed > 6 agility, meaning that Fleet Footed would be worth at least 11 or so agility with it's 15% movement speed increase on a 3% movement fight.

If, then, one were in a situation wherein there were significant numbers of fight that were well above the 3% movement line - say, the end of AQ40 with the Twin Emps (tons of movement) and Ouro/C'thun (both if which have significant movement requirements) - one could imagine that the value of Fleet Footed could get relatively large. For instance, on the Twin Emps fights, where movement time is as high as 25%, the value of Fleet Footed shoots up to almost 100 agility. Under such circumstances, it's conceivable that an otherwise mediocre DPS build could compete for the top spot; logical contenders would seem to be 30/0/31 or, perhaps more likely, 30/28/3 (and, of course, Mutilate). Unfortunately, the only raid situation I can concoct where this would be true would be late SSC/TK, wherein Leotharas, Al'ar, Astromancer, and Kael all have decent movement components, and Vashj has both significant movement and snares. In this case it would be at least plausible for such a build to compete, although I suspect in practice it still falls short.
#521SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Shaker
Oh, absolutely - combined with the fact that Mut builds ramp up FAST, a fight like Twin Emps (oh god, man.. the memories) would definitely favor that sort of build. Alas...

Unfortunately, on some of those fights, movement speed becomes a non-issue yet again - Al'ar taunt resists in phase 1, for example. And our astromancer strat has barely any movement in it (well, okay, 2 wrath inside 1 minute, but that's pretty rare). I've been using Tricky Treats on Leo.
#522SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
ekval
30/28/3 thoughts

When Aldriana mentationed, could 30/28/3 spec work? Or why haven't anyone mentationed about it that much? I tried once to calculate roughly how much movement there is over MH/BT instances and I got to in conclusion that Fleet Footed doesn't add much on bosses, even thought its nice talent to pick if you are going deeper in Assassination. Overall I'm just satisfied the funfactor of SealFate builds and was really waiting 3x/0/3x to give some sort of hope for SF in PvE.

If we compare typical 41/20/0 Mutilate vs. 30/28/3 it comes to Mutilate vs Backstab as talent and their both different chances to proc SF, Poison talents + Find Weakness vs. Dagger spec + Blade Flurry + WEx + 3/5 Opportunity. Without no real testing I'm assuming Backstab as talent is better for proccing SF than Mutilate? I would definetly take 30/28/3 combat tree talents (+ Opportunity) over Poison talents and Find Weakness.

We could assume that rogue with MH/BT gear has 30-35% crit chance, add in Imp. Backstab (+30%) and Dagger spec (+5%) we are probably getting higher SF procs than with Mutilate spec. SealFate would probably allow faster cycles for dagger, therefore it would raise Ashtongue/BT trinket value for this spec also. Does it after all come down to how well Mutilate scales versus Backstab?

Last edited by ekval : 11/27/07 at 11:33 PM.
#523SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Kalman
The major difference in using average modeling between CP and SF is the size of the buffer; energy is much more capable of absorbing randomness than combo points, simply because there's a larger buffer to work within.
#524SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Dontmindme
Here's my point. Right now, the spreadsheet is modeling at least one Seal Fate build as superior to all the builds "we know" to be better. To that extent, the problem needs to be fixed. Personally, I'm trying to fix the spreadsheet and continue the project, but I'm not going to come out and say I'm developing it until I have worked through the ins and out of the cycle sheets and am sure I can really continue the project. It's a lot harder to proof other people's work. I only make changes I know are correct, so the cycle sheets are staying mostly untouched until I work through it all. What I'm really worried about is whether these CP issues are actually affecting the Relentless Strikes modeling. It's possible that since there are usually only 2 possible procs per cycle it isn't skewing the results as much as Seal Fate that has more chance. But it seems something is throwing Seal Fate off or the theoretical to in action DPS should be much closer.

To this point, on my sheets, I have:
1) Fixed the calculations for additive vs. multiplicative for Aggression/Surprise Attacks/Opportunity. [current version is still multiplicative]
2) Made Aggression work with Backstab. [Current version does not give backstab these benefits]
3) Fixed Brutal Earthstorm Diamond for min/max damage on the (un)buffed DPS Sheets, not a calculation issue though. [broken for those values on current sheet]
4) Fixed values for 2 or 3 Ranged weapons that were incorrect [had changed with Expertise changes and Blizz buff-ups but were not updated in the sheet].
5) Added Spinesever. [discovered since last sheet update]

To me, the only real advantage of the DPS sheet over the Gear sheet *IS* the supposed capability to model alternative builds. If those builds aren't working correctly, then I'm not sure this second sheet is really all that useful, especially given the loss of any designated developer.

And if what people are saying is "We don't care about alternative builds such as Seal Fate", then maybe it's time the DPS sheet just fades away. That way all the focus could go the the Gear sheet which currently strictly models the top DPS builds.
#525SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Aldriana
Originally Posted by Dontmindme View Post
To me, the only real advantage of the DPS sheet over the Gear sheet *IS* the supposed capability to model alternative builds. If those builds aren't working correctly, then I'm not sure this second sheet is really all that useful, especially given the loss of any designated developer.

And if what people are saying is "We don't care about alternative builds such as Seal Fate", then maybe it's time the DPS sheet just fades away. That way all the focus could go the the Gear sheet which currently strictly models the top DPS builds.
I might point out that there's nothing fundamentally stopping the gear sheet from including the last half-dozen talents it's missing; it's just that since they're messy to add and not really that important, I didn't bother. If some reasonably dedicated person (who would not be me, as I don't feel like investing that much time) would like to go through and make the changes necessary for that to happen, I would certainly be supportive of that goal, and would be happy to go through the sheet with them and explain what needs to be changed. So if the lack of multispec support is considered a major problem with the sheet, it can probably be remedied.

In terms of merits of the two sheets: I would say that the other advantage the DPS sheet has is shorter development time. When game mechanics change, it usually takes me a few weeks (if not months) to get caught up with all of them, as a lot of the changes are hard to make; meanwhile, the DPS sheet usually has a new release in a couple days with an estimate of the effects of the changes. Basically, if you want quick and dirty estimates in the short term, the DPS sheet is better; but if you want the richer, more detailed answer, the Gear sheet tends to be better about that. So I'm not sure I'd totally abandon the DPS sheet so long as that's the case, as it does have it's uses even if it's accuracy is questionable at times (which, frankly, I don't know if is still true. I know 6 months ago it was pretty bad, which is why I wrote my own instead; but I've heard it's improved somewhat in the interim, though I haven't verified that myself). If, however, someone wants to take responsibility for getting quick updates to the Gear sheet out when mechanics change, it may be feasible to discontinue maintenance of the DPS sheet.
#526SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Zujamar
Originally Posted by ekval View Post
We could assume that rogue with MH/BT gear has 30-35% crit chance, add in Imp. Backstab (+30%) and Dagger spec (+5%) we are probably getting higher SF procs than with Mutilate spec. SealFate would probably allow faster cycles for dagger, therefore it would raise Ashtongue/BT trinket value for this spec also. Does it after all come down to how well Mutilate scales versus Backstab?
Yes, in terms of SF procs, Backstab will see more of those within that crit chance range. But Mutilate builds will still be able to produce finishers at a faster rate, hence enjoying more Relentless, Ruthlessness and Ashtongue trinket procs. Especially the trinket buff will be godly, considering you can time all your finishers roughly between 10 and 15 seconds from the previous one as Mutilate using a "4+" thumb rule. And naturally, that would increase your effective SF proc chance closer (or over?) the one of Backstab.

Now that we're talking about Mutilate, does someone have a good comprehension of what to do when you're stuck with 3cp? (well, I'm assuming 4+ ones are a superior choice, but feel free to correct that one as well) Basically if I'm stuck in that kind of a situation I'd have to choose whether I want to risk energy starvation or sacrifice rupture uptime, both effectively ruining my cycle (if you can call it that).
#527SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Neshalin
From simulations and in-game experience, I'm pretty sure 4+ finishers are better than 3+ finishers even though you might waste a combo point when that second Mutilate crits. The only exception is refreshing a Slice and Dice about to run out. The basic Mutilate 'cycle' is 4+ Slice and Dice, one or two 4+ Ruptures, using Eviscerate to dump spare combo points if nothing needs to be refreshed.
#528SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0madman
Originally Posted by Vulajin View Post

Stat         | Swords       | Daggers      | Fist/Sword   | Hemo+Swords  | Hemo+Deadl.  
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Strength     | 1.00 (1.10)  | 1.00 (1.10)  | 1.00 (1.10)  | 1.00 (1.10)  | 1.00 (1.10)  
Agility      | 2.00 (2.21)  | 1.96 (2.17)  | 1.97 (2.17)  | 1.88 (2.07)  | 1.87 (2.06) 
Atk. Power   | 1.00         | 1.00         | 1.00         | 1.00         | 1.00        
Crit Rating  | 1.75 (1.76)  | 1.67 (1.68)  | 1.69 (1.70)  | 1.59 (1.60)  | 1.57 (1.58) 
Hit Rating   | 2.28 (2.31)  | 2.12 (2.15)  | 2.15 (2.18)  | 2.04 (2.07)  | 1.83 (1.85) 
Exp. Rating  | 2.51 (2.55)  | 2.43 (2.46)  | 2.42 (2.45)  | 2.38 (2.41)  | 2.22 (2.25) 
Armor Pen.   | 0.29         | 0.32         | 0.29         | 0.29         | 0.28        
Haste Rating | 2.15 (2.19)  | 2.18 (2.22)  | 2.14 (2.18)  | 1.92 (1.96)  | 1.83 (1.87) 
Gem (Rare)   | 17.1 (18.1)  | 16.3 (17.3)  | 16.5 (17.4)  | 15.7 (16.6)  | 14.8 (15.6) 
Gem (Epic)   | 20.5 (21.7)  | 19.6 (20.7)  | 19.8 (20.9)  | 18.8 (19.9)  | 17.7 (18.8) 
Meta Gem     | ~80          | ~80          | ~80          | ~80          | ~80
I use these numbers all the time, to get a quick idea of how one item relates to another. However, now I am in the process of figuring out whether to get the S2 MH dagger or the S3 head. That introduces one more number, the dps. The weapon speed is the same as my current MH, so that doesn't need to be taken into account. How many points is 1 weapon dps worth?
#529SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0rooppa
As 14 Ap add's 1 DPs to a wepon, could you use the addition of the points of 14 Ap in your working out ?
#530SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Aldriana
Originally Posted by rooppa View Post
As 14 Ap add's 1 DPs to a wepon, could you use the addition of the points of 14 Ap in your working out ?
Doesn't work, since 14 AP adds 1 DPS to both hands (and a couple damage to each Rupture) as well as to the weapon itself.

As a general rule for a combat sword rogue, 1 DPS is worth something on the order of 10 AP on the main hand, and 4 AP on the offhand. I don't know the numbers off the top of my head for the other specs, but I would expect them to be similar.
#531SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Vulajin
Originally Posted by madman View Post
I use these numbers all the time, to get a quick idea of how one item relates to another. However, now I am in the process of figuring out whether to get the S2 MH dagger or the S3 head. That introduces one more number, the dps. The weapon speed is the same as my current MH, so that doesn't need to be taken into account. How many points is 1 weapon dps worth?
Originally Posted by rooppa View Post
As 14 Ap add's 1 DPs to a wepon, could you use the addition of the points of 14 Ap in your working out ?
No, that wouldn't necessarily be accurate because of weapon speed normalization for instant attacks (where if your weapon isn't 2.4 or 1.7 speed, 1 weapon DPS does not provide the same benefit as 14 AP).

This is a question most likely better answered by a spreadsheet, rather than trying to use EP values to judge it. Also, I would be curious to know what two specific pieces you're using in those slots that you're considering upgrading. Personally I'd go with a weapon upgrade over any other gear slot, particularly if you're looking at arena gear.

(edit) Also read Aldriana's post above mine.
#532SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Grunge
Originally Posted by madman View Post
I use these numbers all the time, to get a quick idea of how one item relates to another. However, now I am in the process of figuring out whether to get the S2 MH dagger or the S3 head. That introduces one more number, the dps. The weapon speed is the same as my current MH, so that doesn't need to be taken into account. How many points is 1 weapon dps worth?
Wasting points on s2 mh is not worth it imo. 1850 isn't "hard" to achieve (if you consider the inflation). If you can't get your rating up in the first week, then go for the helm. That will give you another 1-2 week of time to get rating up and buy those weapons.

They are the best stuff before the Glaives.
#533SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0frozenkex
savagery is a better offhand
#534SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
madman
Originally Posted by Vulajin View Post
Also, I would be curious to know what two specific pieces you're using in those slots that you're considering upgrading. Personally I'd go with a weapon upgrade over any other gear slot, particularly if you're looking at arena gear.
Currently I have Malchazeen and the Netherblade facemask.

The World of Warcraft Armory

So I'm pretty sure that for my raid dps this week, the dagger would be best. However, I am also thinking long term. The S2 MH dagger is really expensive (2283), while the head is a bit cheaper (1875). In ZA there are 1.80 daggers with ~95-ish dps that drops, but of course it is hard to know when they might drop for me.

Currently I could use both the S3 head and S3 chest as well, as they with the right gems will be the best I could get with the guild's current progress.

Last edited by madman : 11/29/07 at 5:10 AM.
#535SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0madman
Originally Posted by Grunge View Post
Wasting points on s2 mh is not worth it imo. 1850 isn't "hard" to achieve (if you consider the inflation). If you can't get your rating up in the first week, then go for the helm.
Unless something has changed, I'm not close to managing that. I really hate pvp, I'm just forced to do it the way the game is now. I manage to stay around 1500 on 2v2 with a semi good healer, but 3v3 and 5v5 we lose most matches.
#536SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Raynforce
Previously quoted

Hi all,

I just needed to clarify something about Sword spec. I understand when sword spec procs on OH it triggers a MH swing. I'm using fist/sword. so my OH sword procs my MH fist swing with 5% crit on it due to fist spec. So this spec comes out with slightly higher DPS because my fist has 5% crit on it right?

What I needed to know is what happens if my MH is sword too. Does my MH proc another MH swing as well? If MH and OH procs MH attacks only ( OH never gets an extra swing from SS ), isn't MH and OH sword superior to MH fist / OH sword?

Also, I heard rumors that this has been corrected in patch 2.3 but on my combat logs, my OH sword still procs my MH fist so I assume nothing has been changed at all. Am I right?
Help anyone?
#537SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Graecus
There is an entire thread dedicated to a spreadsheet where you put in your items, spec, and it magically lets you know what kind of output you can gain in a sustained environment.

[Rogue] DPS Spreadsheet

I'd recommend you check that out.
#538SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Raynforce
Previously quoted by Graecus

There is an entire thread dedicated to a spreadsheet where you put in your items, spec, and it magically lets you know what kind of output you can gain in a sustained environment.

http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t14304-r...s_spreadsheet/

I'd recommend you check that out.
Yea I understand that a spreadsheet exists, I just needed to know the mechanics of this spec. More specifically, how does it work? Does sword spec proc on MH trigger a MH swing as well?

Not exactly the difference in DPS that the spreadsheet provides.

Last edited by Raynforce : 11/29/07 at 9:43 AM.
#539SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Graecus
Well, you asked about the superiority of a spec, and the DPS spreadsheet will tell you exactly that. As to the exact mechanics, SSpec triggers a MH swing. If you have a sword in your OH, it triggers a MH swing. If you have a sword in your MH, it triggers a MH swing.
#540SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Raynforce
Originally Posted by Graecus View Post
Well, you asked about the superiority of a spec, and the DPS spreadsheet will tell you exactly that. As to the exact mechanics, SSpec triggers a MH swing. If you have a sword in your OH, it triggers a MH swing. If you have a sword in your MH, it triggers a MH swing.
That was exactly what I needed to know.. Thanks!
#541SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Graecus
most welcome.
#542SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
doplegnger
The first post mentions the ranking of spec choices and relative worth to each other based on personal DPS.

Has this ranking been updated for both of the 2.3.0.2 changes?

I only ask because it seemed to me that combat daggers got a big boost with the addition of aggression (something that previously wouldn't have assisted their DPS) as well as the bonus to the multiplier. Estimating around 25% of combat dagger damage coming from backstab and a combined bonus of 21% to backstab damage (150% damage to 165% damage and 6% on new aggression damage) it seems like it would be around a 5.25% increase in DPS (working with soft estimates instead of hard numbers). Was combat daggers so hard off before that the bonus was what put it up to being 3% below swords, or is combat daggers now decently equivalent to the top end rogue build?

I found a previous question that brought up aggression but not the increase in backstab multiplier and I wasn't sure if that change was snuck in at the last moment (I don't pay attention to specifics on patch notes until they are released)

Last edited by doplegnger : 11/29/07 at 11:22 AM.
#543SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
ekval
I think its stated that Backstab change in Aggression wasn't enough to bring Combat Daggers near to Combat Swords.

About other thing, I was Combat Swords before with [Blade of Infamy]+[Merciless Gladiator's Quickblade]. When I tried [Syphon of the Nathrezim]+[Swiftsteel Bludgeon] with Combat Maces (exactly same talent contribution with both specs), it seems that in practice Syphon/Swiftsteel takes the lead in PvE raid damage. The difference ain't that small either, its quite noticeable in favor of Combat Maces. This seems to be against spreadsheets, I wonder why?

Last edited by ekval : 11/29/07 at 11:49 AM.
#544SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Birgitte
Glancing Blows

I'm sure it's been asked, but is glancing blow chance against a boss 25% or 40% right now?
#545SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Arawethion
Originally Posted by Birgitte View Post
I'm sure it's been asked, but is glancing blow chance against a boss 25% or 40% right now?
25%. As far as I know, there's no relevant hit-table-capping issue.
#546SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Nakaroth
This is my first post and possibly in the wrong forum; however, it does pertain to Rogue's and gear choice and seeing as though my problem is directly quoted in the original post I'd like to ask it here.


Netherblade Facemask
308 Armor ---> (non-DPS stats can be valued at 0 EP)
+28 Agility ---> 28 * 2.21 = 61.88 EP
+39 Stamina ---> 0 EP
[ ] Meta Socket ---> 80 EP
[ ] Red Socket ---> 18.1 EP
Socket Bonus: +4 Agility ---> 4 * 2.21 = 8.84 EP
Equip: Improves hit rating by 14. ---> 14 * 2.31 = 32.34 EP
Equip: Improves attack power by 78. ---> 78 EP
Total: 61.88 + 80 + 18.1 + 8.84 + 32.34 + 78 = 279.16 EP

Grimgrin Faceguard
341 Armor ---> 0 EP
+40 Agility ---> 40 * 2.21 = 88.40 EP
+48 Stamina ---> 0 EP
[ ] Red Socket ---> 18.1 EP
[ ] Yellow Socket ---> 18.1 EP
[ ] Blue Socket ---> 18.1 EP (don't use a blue here)
Socket Bonus: +8 Attack Power ---> 0 EP (won't be satisfied)
Equip: Improves hit rating by 24. ---> 24 * 2.31 = 55.44 EP
Equip: Improves attack power by 82. ---> 82 EP
Total: 88.40 + 18.1 + 18.1 + 18.1 + 55.44 + 82 = 280.14 EP


I'm using T4 currently and my guild regularly clears ZA. When I get the chance to loot Grimgrin Faceguard my predicament is if I should or not. Currently I do not have RED in my Meta slot. When these two helms are compared, stats wise, Grimgrin wins out. However, if I put a RED in my T4 should I keep that for the 3% crit damage?

Currently I get 1700 SS crits without RED.

Question: T4 with RED, or Grimgrin + more socket selection.
#547SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Latito
I had thought it was 24%.. 8% per lvl the mob is above you, or am I just remembering wrong?
#548SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Aldriana
Determining whether it's 24% or 25% from straight statistical testing requires a *lot* of data - data that I haven't seen cross these forums. So unless there has been significant testing and analysis elsewhere (and if there has, please point me to it), I'm not sure if we can say for sure whether it's 24% or 25%. But it's certainly in that ballpark.
#549SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Shaker
Originally Posted by Nakaroth View Post
stuff

Question: T4 with RED, or Grimgrin + more socket selection.
Either of the T4 bonuses are enough to kick NB over Grimgrin for my personal tastes, so in most reasonable cases I can imagine, I'd suggest sticking with a properly gemmed NB. The 2 pc bonus is particularly big.
#550SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Katria
It would be cool to add to the first post some ballpark values for the various set bonuses. Say you have the hat and gloves for the T4 set bonus, but have the option to upgrade to the S3 arena hat and buy the new badge gloves. Both items are upgrades over their T4 counterparts, but is it better to stick with the set bonus? I'm sure there are other examples.

While some are trivial to set a value for (2pc Wastewalker), others are more nebulous.
#551SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Shaker
They are also all in the spreadsheets linked in the first post.
#552SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0madman
Originally Posted by Katria View Post
It would be cool to add to the first post some ballpark values for the various set bonuses. Say you have the hat and gloves for the T4 set bonus, but have the option to upgrade to the S3 arena hat and buy the new badge gloves. Both items are upgrades over their T4 counterparts, but is it better to stick with the set bonus? I'm sure there are other examples.
Add the T4 shoulders to that to complicate it further. What do you do when the T5 shoulders drop, and you can afford the badge gloves, and you can afford the S3 head? Do you only replace one of the three? Is it worth disregarding the whole set bonus? When you switch out the last two T4, you will probably get rid of both.
#553SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Mideci
Originally Posted by Nakaroth View Post
This is my first post and possibly in the wrong forum; however, it does pertain to Rogue's and gear choice and seeing as though my problem is directly quoted in the original post I'd like to ask it here.

I'm using T4 currently and my guild regularly clears ZA. When I get the chance to loot Grimgrin Faceguard my predicament is if I should or not. Currently I do not have RED in my Meta slot. When these two helms are compared, stats wise, Grimgrin wins out. However, if I put a RED in my T4 should I keep that for the 3% crit damage?

Currently I get 1700 SS crits without RED.

Question: T4 with RED, or Grimgrin + more socket selection.
Your guiild is regularly clearing ZA with more than one rogue or feral druid in the raid? Congrats on that. If yes, then do what you want. If no, then loot it over the void crystallization that will ensue.

I have no idea what meta you are running but it's inferior to RED. This has been proved over and again. It must not be very good given your apparent willingness to replace it with a no-meta-gem helm. So replace it with the RED and then do whatever you want with the hypothetical Grimgrin since it'll be slightly less good than the Tier 4 helm regardless.

If you want more stats at the expense of maximized dps then I'd argue this thread is not really what you're looking for. You can already evaluate stats quite well on your own, I'm sure.
#554SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Nakaroth
I'm just using the 20ap minor run speed meta.. never bothered to replace it. Not to mention I always used 4ag/4hit gems to boost my hit instead of ap.

Wow it just occurred to me that I can't re-socket a meta slot.. crap

So it looks like I should be going for the Grimgrin..

dang..

Also, it's usually just 1 rogue, 1 druid (feral) as far as leather dps.
#555SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 songster
Originally Posted by Nakaroth View Post
Wow it just occurred to me that I can't re-socket a meta slot..
Yes you can, same as any other socket.
#556SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Vulajin
The PTR patch notes for 2.3.2 have been amended to indicate that Hemo's weapon damage component is being reduced from 125% to 110%, but that the debuff damage has been increased yet again.

As soon as we can get confirmation of these changes on the PTR (hopefully with a screenshot), I'll see about getting some new and improved DPS estimates for Hemo builds relative to combat.
#557SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0nelalas
Originally Posted by Nakaroth View Post
I'm just using the 20ap minor run speed meta.. never bothered to replace it. Not to mention I always used 4ag/4hit gems to boost my hit instead of ap.

Wow it just occurred to me that I can't re-socket a meta slot.. crap

So it looks like I should be going for the Grimgrin..

dang..

Also, it's usually just 1 rogue, 1 druid (feral) as far as leather dps.
As was mentioned a few posts back by Shaker, the 2-piece Netherblade bonus is particularly strong because it enables you to tighten your cycles (i.e. redirecting energy from slice and dice to rupture uptime: 1s/5r or 2s/5r). Since you are only running two pieces of Netherblade -- including the helmet -- I would suggest keeping your T4 helmet and upgrading to a RED.
#558SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Mideci
Originally Posted by Nakaroth View Post
I'm just using the 20ap minor run speed meta.. never bothered to replace it. Not to mention I always used 4ag/4hit gems to boost my hit instead of ap.

Wow it just occurred to me that I can't re-socket a meta slot.. crap

So it looks like I should be going for the Grimgrin..

dang..

Also, it's usually just 1 rogue, 1 druid (feral) as far as leather dps.
And again... If the druid is a dpser and has an inferior helm give him the Grimgrin. You want your T4 anyway with a diamond upgrade. It's better. Two piece T4 is nice. And the RED has a scaling bonus.

If you kill Zul'jin enough you'll have another chance at the Grimgrin and you can take one too. But if you actually want to maximize your personal DPS, you already have the tool at your disposal.

As for 4 hit / 4 agi gems, those are quite often the gem of choice for maximizing DPS as well at your gear level.
#559SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Devil Warrior
Regarding the Ashtongue Talisman of Lethality, I've noticed that (atleast) the DPS spreadsheet seems to undervalue this trinket substantially, the Gear spreadsheet seems to have it modeled more accurately. Most people assume this trinket is subpar to Madness of the Betrayer/Warp-Spring Coil. I was messing with the math of its uptime based on energy regen/cycles, and came to the conclusion that, given a 3s/5r cycle, using this trinket over Warp-Spring Coil or Madness of the Betrayer, and modifying your cycle to 5s/5r actually comes out a bit higher on dps than the "standard" 3s/5r cycle, due to having an average uptime of about 17 seconds per cycle as compared to an average uptime of about 13 seconds per cycle, averaging approx a 116 average crit rating from the trinket, as opposed to approx 90-95 average crit rating on a 3s/5r cycle.

What is the general consensus on this trinket?

Last edited by Devil Warrior : 12/03/07 at 5:42 PM.
#560SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Aldriana
Originally Posted by Devil Warrior View Post
Regarding the Ashtongue Talisman of Lethality, I've noticed that (atleast) the DPS spreadsheet seems to undervalue this trinket substantially, the Gear spreadsheet seems to have it modeled more accurately. Most people assume this trinket is subpar to Madness of the Betrayer/Warp-Spring Coil. I was messing with the math of its uptime based on energy regen/cycles, and came to the conclusion that, given a 3s/5r cycle, using this trinket over Warp-Spring Coil or Madness of the Betrayer, and modifying your cycle to 5s/5r actually comes out a bit higher on dps than the "standard" 3s/5r cycle, due to having an average uptime of about 17 seconds per cycle as compared to an average uptime of about 13 seconds per cycle.

What is the general consensus on this trinket?
Well, my take on it is as follows:

With a typical sword cycle, you should be able to maintain ~70% uptime on this trinket. Additionally, a little clever energy management will allow you to make virtually all of your Sinister Strikes during periods of trinket uptime. In this case, the damage boost for a combat sword build is comparable to Madness of the Betrayer, a bit below Dragonspine Trophy, and ahead of everything else (with one minor exception, to be discussed shortly).

As a Hemo rogue, your uptime will be a bit lower, putting it a bit behind Madness of the Betrayer.

As a dagger rogue, it tends not to be very good, as it's hard to maintain uptime with such slow Combo Point generation.

As a Mutilate rogue, I'm told it's good, but I don't have any numbers to back that up.

Hence, if you are a sword or hemo rogue, you probably end up using it. Why? Because you need two trinkets, and you more than likely have Dragonspine Trophy and Ashtongue long before you get a Madness of the Betrayer; since the difference between it and Madness is relatively small, it is probably not worth spending the DKP to get Madness (or, if you guild doesn't use DKP: it would be somewhat poor form of you to take it when it's a trivial upgrade over a hunter or fury warrior who would get more use of it). Hence, most non-dagger rogues will probably use this for a significant period of time.

As a dagger rogue, on the other hand, you probably do want to seek out other options, as it's pretty mediocre.

So, in brief: it may not be the best trinket in town, but it's good enough that most rogues specced other than combat daggers will find it worth using for a while, particularly since there's only one trinket better than it that's easier to obtain... with the aforementioned slight exception.

That slight exception is that WSC is actually the 2nd best trinket for rogues with certain combinations of gear; in this case, you may not end up using it. To see if your gear/spec has dropped you in this bucket, consult your local spreadsheet.
#561SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Cyn
As mutilate the trinket is insane, doing a 4CP+ finisher every 10 seconds. As any optimal mutilate cycles uses due to Find Weakness anyway, means the synergy between Mutilate spamming finishers and find weakness, this trinket would have at least 80% uptime, usually more, and every proc has find weakness at the same time. might even say it's better than DST for mutilate.
#562SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Bluefish
I agree that it looks to be a valuable Mutilate trinket (tailor-made, in fact -- duration of 10s is perfect), but I don't think Mutilate is really using a drastically greater amount of finishers per minute, is it? 3s/5r has an S&D lasting what, 20 seconds? That means 3 full cycles a minute, or 6 finishers a minute. I'd ballpark my Muti finishers per minute at 8, and I don't follow the "4+" rule except on Ruptures.
#563SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Grunge
Originally Posted by Bluefish View Post
I agree that it looks to be a valuable Mutilate trinket (tailor-made, in fact -- duration of 10s is perfect), but I don't think Mutilate is really using a drastically greater amount of finishers per minute, is it? 3s/5r has an S&D lasting what, 20 seconds? That means 3 full cycles a minute, or 6 finishers a minute. I'd ballpark my Muti finishers per minute at 8, and I don't follow the "4+" rule except on Ruptures.
I'd say 9 to 12, depending on your crit and Relentless/Ruthless procs.
#564SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Aldriana
Well, shoot, this isn't hard to figure out:

If you're doing 4+ cycles, it's 1 Mutilate then finisher only if you both a) Ruthlessness procs and b) Seal Fate procs. Hence, the expected number of Mutilates per finisher is 2-p(ruthless)*p(SF). p(ruthlessness) = 60%, and p(SF) = 1-(1-p(crit))^2. Assuming you have, say, a 40% crit rate, that means p(SF) = 1-(1-.4)^2 = 64%; hence, the average number of Mutilates per finisher is about 2-.6*.64 = 1.616.

Now, operating under the assumption that Relentless Strikes always procs (reasonable for 4+ point finishers) and that finishers thus cost no net energy (not precisely true, but will do for an upper bound), one basically gets 10 Mutilates per minute (as you have no energy regen outside of natural regen and Relentless Strikes). Hence, one gets approximately 10/1.616 = 6 finishers per minute, on average. This is a little higher than 3s5r which weighs in about 5.5 finishers per minute, but it's definitely pretty close.

Now, throwing in 4/5 T5 would generate a few extra finishers here and there, so I can definitely see getting up to 7 or 8 finishers per minute, but if you'll pardon me for saying so, there's no way to get anywhere close to 12 per minute; to do so you'd need to have more finishers than Mutilates, which seems.... unlikely.
#565SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Feist-Mok
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post

That slight exception is that WSC is actually the 2nd best trinket for rogues with certain combinations of gear; in this case, you may not end up using it. To see if your gear/spec has dropped you in this bucket, consult your local spreadsheet.
Care to give an example or two of what sort of combination you're talking about?
#566SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0koaschten
Originally Posted by Feist-Mok View Post
Care to give an example or two of what sort of combination you're talking about?
Click on my profile and hope to catch me in full pve gear. I use to toggle between MotB, WSC and my currently equipped Ashtongue Talisman by about 5-10 EAP in Aldriana's spreadsheet.

Basically its a situation of passive ArP on gear and AP past the 2000 mark unbuffed i'd guess.
#567SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Aldriana
I haven't actually figured out for sure whether it's a matter of high armor penetration or just high gear level, but, suffice it to say: it tends to show up as you move into late-BT type gear. The fundamental reason is that Armor Penetration tends to scale faster than other stats as gear improves (basically because it scales with all other stats, whereas, for instance, crit does not scale with crit, hit, or Expertise at all). For instance, compare WSC to Madness; you're basically trading AP for Armor Penetration. Hence, as AP increases (which doesn't increase the value of AP at all, but does increase the value of Armor Penetration), or as Armor Penetration increases (which increases the value of itself faster than it increases any other stat), it's easy to see that WSC will become relatively stronger in comparison to Madness.

With regards WSC vs Ashtongue, it's a bit more subtle, but, suffice it to say, it still does eventually happen, owing to the fact that WSC scales faster with Armor Penetration, Crit, Hit, and Expertise.

In terms of a specific example: I'll be happy to piece one together once I get the spreadsheet updated for 2.3; but as my working copy of the spreadsheet is sort of in an intermediate state right now, I can't really get good numbers out of it to demonstrate the effect in question.
#568SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0koaschten
Well you will see the toggling quite well in this sheet: Free file hosting by Savefile.com

on a sidenote: Spineserver got nerfed... WoW-Europe.com Forums -> Spinesever nerfed on PTR
#569SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Raynforce
Hi! I'm just looking to get some opinions here.

I just bought Shallow-grave Trousers for 75 badges and replaced my Skulker's Greaves with 3x 8 hit gems. I lost a total of 52 hit rating for a gain in 13 agi, 28 ap and 30 haste.

Despite Shallow-grave Trousers being highly rated, the lost of 52 hit makes me uneasy. Can I get some opinions on this?
#570SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Cos-
Originally Posted by Raynforce View Post
Hi! I'm just looking to get some opinions here.

I just bought Shallow-grave Trousers for 75 badges and replaced my Skulker's Greaves with 3x 8 hit gems. I lost a total of 52 hit rating for a gain in 13 agi, 28 ap and 30 haste.

Despite Shallow-grave Trousers being highly rated, the lost of 52 hit makes me uneasy. Can I get some opinions on this?
What spec are you? If you are combat sword spec, according to the equivalency values in the first post you just spent 75 badges on a direct sidegrade. 52x2.28 ~= (13x2)+28 +(30x2.15).
#571SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Raynforce
I am combat fist/sword.. omg.....!! 75 badges down the drain!!
#572SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0madman
Using the numbers from the first post to get a quick value (regardless of other gear), these these are your numbers (assuming the fist/sword numbers from the first post)
Skulker's Greaves 238.8 (246.8)
Shallow-Grave Trousers 244.9 (255.1)

To me it seems like an upgrade. Not a huge one, but definetly better. Give the spreadsheet a try too, but I think that it will still come out ahead.

These are my numbers (combat daggers):
Skulker's Greaves 237.0 (245.2)
Shallow-Grave Trousers 245.6 (256.3)

A bigger upgrade for me, but it is still an upgrade for you.
#573SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0roq
Something i noticed we are missing while reading another thread, ratings. Shouldn't we have the ratings and other basic information that is useful, like how much AGI equals 1 crit?
#574SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0royaljester
Sucks that Spinesever got nerfed, but who didn't see it coming. I was just hoping it wasn't so soon, and I might have picked one up...ah well.

Shallow grave are better, don't worry, you'll probably not notice too much dps increase though, that little aep, but they are still better. I just got the [Shady Dealer's Pantaloons] and looking at the spreadsheet, its not an upgrade till I equip them, then its only like 10-15 aep, but, still an upgrade...while losing 2.54% hit.. :\ Gotta love it.
#575SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Devil Warrior
Originally Posted by roq View Post
Something i noticed we are missing while reading another thread, ratings. Shouldn't we have the ratings and other basic information that is useful, like how much AGI equals 1 crit?
I believe the chart you're looking for is in the very first post in this thread.
#576SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Vulajin
Originally Posted by Devil Warrior View Post
I believe the chart you're looking for is in the very first post in this thread.
He refers to even more basic things, like 40 agi ~ 1% crit, and 1 agility = 1 AP, etc.

I can see reasons both to do it and to not do it. Obviously despite any intentions, this thread has become a widely-used rogue information source, so such a section likely would not be wasted, but this thread fulfills a particular function and I don't want to bog it down with more than it needs to have.
#577SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Aldriana
I don't really see a lot of need to duplicate that information in the first post; perhaps a link to wowwiki or some such thing, but as that information is already readily available I'm not sure it's important to include here, particularly since, by itself, that information is about 90% useless. To the casual player who wants to know "which piece of gear is better, A or B", the existing equivalence table is more useful. To the slightly more serious player that wants to know how these stats improve his damage, the in-game tooltips which provide infformation at the level of "Agility gives AP and crit" are sufficient - the exact conversions tend not to be relevant. Really, the only people who need to know what the exact conversions are are those who are actually going to be theorycrafting, most of whom already know the conversions, and the rest of whom could easily find them in existing knowledge bases. So I guess I'm not seeing a lot of motivation to include it here.
#578SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0slycendice
Malice vs. Deadliness

I take it from what I've read here that all other talents remaining unchanged for a combat/sub build, Deadliness > Malice in terms of overall DPS (assuming you had to make that tradeoff - I realize both can be incorporated in a build)?
#579SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0slycendice
Originally Posted by Vulajin View Post
He refers to even more basic things, like 40 agi ~ 1% crit, and 1 agility = 1 AP, etc.

I can see reasons both to do it and to not do it. Obviously despite any intentions, this thread has become a widely-used rogue information source, so such a section likely would not be wasted, but this thread fulfills a particular function and I don't want to bog it down with more than it needs to have.

Sry, I think I misread this in my earlier post. If I'm sitting at 1500 AP then according to this rule of thumb, the 5% crit from Malice would be worth much more than the 10% AP buff from Deadliness, correct?
#580SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Ozzmar
Well, the fact of which is "better" is irrelevant in the context of a Combat/Sub build. 99% of the time, a Combat/Sub build is used for the sole purpose of Arena, where Resilience is sky-high and 5% crit means almost nothing. If you're talking damage output in a raid, we may have something to discuss. If you're talking about what's generally an intelligent decision with said spec, there's no question that Malice is a poor choice.
#581SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0slycendice
Originally Posted by Ozzmar View Post
Well, the fact of which is "better" is irrelevant in the context of a Combat/Sub build. 99% of the time, a Combat/Sub build is used for the sole purpose of Arena, where Resilience is sky-high and 5% crit means almost nothing. If you're talking damage output in a raid, we may have something to discuss. If you're talking about what's generally an intelligent decision with said spec, there's no question that Malice is a poor choice.

Ah yes, ur bringing back memories of my initial logic. I am in fact primarily interested in pvp and I did go with the AP buff for that reason (resilience), and because I assumed the AP buff would scale. I posted the question here simply because the conversation was around talents and dps so I assumed it was appropriate. Thank you for the response and you answered my question.
#582SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0roq
Originally Posted by Vulajin View Post
He refers to even more basic things, like 40 agi ~ 1% crit, and 1 agility = 1 AP, etc.
I didn't mean that basic, but you were at least thinking along the same lines I was. I guess my main concern was the ratings, 15.77 Hit/Haste ==1% Hit/Haste, 22.1 Crit Rating == 1 Crit, and so on. But Ald, does make a good point, you could just link to somewhere that has that information.
#583SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0cmecu
i was reading

Combat daggers is now the worst of the combat builds as of 2.3

What made daggers so horrible ? I love daggers so much, i like to back stab. Just my preference, and playstyle. I hate the idea of being forced to goto swords to be highly effective as a rogue. My guild, our sword rogues top the chart by a landslide, then im up there somewhere under them and over most other classes, but the gap between me as a dagger rogue and them as a sword rogue is incredibly huge.

What would blizzard need todo , to get combat dagger rogues up closer to sword rogues ? I dont desire to be higher then them, but I do want to be competitive in dps to them.
#584SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Aldriana
Originally Posted by cmecu View Post
i was reading

Combat daggers is now the worst of the combat builds as of 2.3

What made daggers so horrible ? I love daggers so much, i like to back stab. Just my preference, and playstyle. I hate the idea of being forced to goto swords to be highly effective as a rogue. My guild, our sword rogues top the chart by a landslide, then im up there somewhere under them and over most other classes, but the gap between me as a dagger rogue and them as a sword rogue is incredibly huge.

What would blizzard need todo , to get combat dagger rogues up closer to sword rogues ? I dont desire to be higher then them, but I do want to be competitive in dps to them.
I would highly recommend searching around, since there've been dozens if not hundreds of posts in the various rogue threads on this very topic, and, moreover, at least 1 thread was almost closed for speculating on what would be required to fix them - hence people aren't likely to want to open that particular can of worms again.
#585SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
mmaker
Originally Posted by cmecu View Post
i was reading

Combat daggers is now the worst of the combat builds as of 2.3

What made daggers so horrible ? I love daggers so much, i like to back stab. Just my preference, and playstyle. I hate the idea of being forced to goto swords to be highly effective as a rogue. My guild, our sword rogues top the chart by a landslide, then im up there somewhere under them and over most other classes, but the gap between me as a dagger rogue and them as a sword rogue is incredibly huge.

What would blizzard need todo , to get combat dagger rogues up closer to sword rogues ? I dont desire to be higher then them, but I do want to be competitive in dps to them.
Maces is worse then combat daggers when i played around with spreedsheet. I get worse dps with s3 maces then my s2 daggers!
I also played around with s3 swords and the only thing that swords is better then daggers is because they have more talents points "over" . The extra point in ruthlessness, 2 in murder and last one in lethality. And the extra in 4 in imp poisons. So without those combat daggers has higher then dps then sword! Its rather extra talents points then the specc itself.

Just checked and s3 swords need 2xmurder to outpass s3 daggers in dps. Which means that on poison immune mobs and where murder is useless combat daggers has higher dps according to spreadsheet with my gear.

So simple solution, move improved backstab and opportunity to combat tree and daggers are where they should be!

Last edited by mmaker : 12/06/07 at 10:31 AM.
#586SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0koaschten
Originally Posted by mmaker View Post
Maces is worse then combat daggers when i played around with spreedsheet. I get worse dps with s3 maces then my s2 daggers!
I also played around with s3 swords and the only thing that swords is better then daggers is because they have more talents points "over" . The extra point in ruthlessness, 2 in murder and last one in lethality. And the extra in 4 in imp poisons. So without those combat daggers has higher then dps then sword! Its rather extra talents points then the specc itself.

Just checked and s3 swords need 2xmurder to outpass s3 daggers in dps. Which means that on poison immune mobs and where murder is useless combat daggers has higher dps according to spreadsheet with my gear.

So simple solution, move improved backstab and opportunity to combat tree and daggers are where they should be!
Before stating such big claims, please make sure you link the according specs and mention the assumed gear level.
#587SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Hanos
Originally Posted by cmecu View Post
i was reading

Combat daggers is now the worst of the combat builds as of 2.3

What made daggers so horrible ? I love daggers so much, i like to back stab. Just my preference, and playstyle. I hate the idea of being forced to goto swords to be highly effective as a rogue. My guild, our sword rogues top the chart by a landslide, then im up there somewhere under them and over most other classes, but the gap between me as a dagger rogue and them as a sword rogue is incredibly huge.

What would blizzard need todo , to get combat dagger rogues up closer to sword rogues ? I dont desire to be higher then them, but I do want to be competitive in dps to them.
Hey, Cmecu (tell Grim that Hanos says hi). Right now daggers is going to end up being behind swords when you have similar options, the main reason this changed since before the expansion is that Sinsiter Strike got new ranks, and Backstab essentially did not. However, if you have better dagger options (and with a guild full of sword rogues you will, especially once you get Vashj down) then you can be very competitive with daggers. Before the Windfury and Sword Spec Nerfs, this was not the case, but now that Sinister Strike no longer proc WF or Sword Spec, the gap has closed substantially.

Up until recently my guild had 2 sword and 2 dagger rogues (one of the dagger rogues picked up Blade of Infamy and Blade of Savagery to save them from sharding), and the 2 dagger rogues are that way because they prefer the play style. At the highest gear levels you are looking at maybe a 3% DPS difference, which is small enough that until everyone has full ideal gear sets you aren't even going to notice it (T6 2-Piece bonus is a bigger DPS difference).

Taking a quick look at the other rogues in your guild and your armory, I see some issues that are also contributing to the differences. My guess is Taigori is your highest DPS rogue, and you are probably the lowest. The main thing is you are running way too low on Hit Rating, 227 is atleast 50 below where you want to be. The places where you can pick up some hit rating are also where you will see the biggest DPS gains:
-Ranged -> Arcanite Steam Pistol is still the best ranged weapon in the game as long as you are under the hit cap (363) drops from Al'ar
-Neck -> Choker of Vile Intent from Heroic badges, only costs 25, and is a nice upgrade over what you have.
-Cloak -> Either of the cloaks from Kara (Dark Reavers is the nicer of the 2), the PVP one from Badges, or the Haste one from ZA would all be very nice upgrades.
-Chest -> Bloodsea Brigand's Vest or the one from ZA are both big upgrades
-Wrist -> Heroic Badges ones or the ones from Astromancer are both big upgrades
-Waist -> Belt of Deep Shadow (Crafted) is the second best belt in the game and has a ton of hit on it
-Boots -> Heroic Badge ones also loaded with hit and a straight upgrade from Edgewalkers
-Trinkets - Warpspring, Dragonspine, Tsunami and the ZA trinket are all huge upgrades over you current ones

Comparing your gear to Taigori's puts you about 75 DPS behind him, and he has most of the upgrades I listed above (Ranged, Neck, Cloak, Wrist, Waist, Trinket)

So while, yes you can get higher with Swords, Daggers is fine, and the DPS difference isn't a big as you would think, not to mention taking less appealing weapons might make it easier to pick up more appealing ones like the chest off Fathom Lord.
#588SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Aldriana
Originally Posted by mmaker View Post
Maces is worse then combat daggers when i played around with spreedsheet. I get worse dps with s3 maces then my s2 daggers!
I also played around with s3 swords and the only thing that swords is better then daggers is because they have more talents points "over" . The extra point in ruthlessness, 2 in murder and last one in lethality. And the extra in 4 in imp poisons. So without those combat daggers has higher then dps then sword! Its rather extra talents points then the specc itself.

Just checked and s3 swords need 2xmurder to outpass s3 daggers in dps. Which means that on poison immune mobs and where murder is useless combat daggers has higher dps according to spreadsheet with my gear.
1) What does it even mean to say "it's the extra talent points and not the spec"? The spec has fewer spare points to dump into auxillary DPS talents. This is (one of) the reasons why it's inferior. If Opportunity was in Combat or Assassination, might the situation be better? Well, it'd be better, but whether it would be enough is a hard question to answer... there are other things going on.

2) I don't know about your gear, but with the default gear in the 0.8 Rogue Gear Spreadsheet, I show 1469.22 DPS without Murder (1506.59 with) for Arena 3 swords, and 1433.54 for Arena 3 Daggers. I'm not saying there isn't gear where daggers keep up; I've just never seen it.

Originally Posted by Hanos View Post
Hey, Cmecu (tell Grim that Hanos says hi). Right now daggers is going to end up being behind swords when you have similar options, the main reason this changed since before the expansion is that Sinsiter Strike got new ranks, and Backstab essentially did not. However, if you have better dagger options (and with a guild full of sword rogues you will, especially once you get Vashj down) then you can be very competitive with daggers. Before the Windfury and Sword Spec Nerfs, this was not the case, but now that Sinister Strike no longer proc WF or Sword Spec, the gap has closed substantially.
While the gap has closed considerably, it's still reasonably substantial; for instance, in comparison to the numbers above: switching to Talon of Azshara and Latro's Shifting Sword does 1434 DPS without Murder, which is as much as Arena 3 daggers. So with a T5 MH and a blue OH you can do as much damage with swords as you can with 2 of the best daggers in the game.

Admittedly, we are talking differences of a couple percent here, which are dwarfed by the differences in attentiveness and skill; if you find you're a lot better at playing a dagger rogue than a sword rogue, that can be enough to swing the balance. However, assuming comparable skill and attentiveness to both builds, the sword rogue will basically always do more damage.
#589SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Ilbiz
Hemo

Does anyone have any data on how the hemo debuff is actually calculated? The Tooltip says "adds up to 36 dmg" (buffed to 42 with next patch). In general it would seem that most people consider this to add a flat amount of dmg. I have always assumed it meant it added between 0-36 making it an avg increase of 18 dmg. Has anyone done any tests or posted an actual calculation somewhere?
#590SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
 Shaker
Originally Posted by Hanos View Post
The main thing is you are running way too low on Hit Rating, 227 is atleast 50 below where you want to be.
Please don't propagate the 'magic number' hit rating thing - there is no magic number for hit rating (edit: as long as you aren't hit capped (363), or missing specials, that is). Especially when rogues move from T4->T5, following SEVERAL optimal upgrade paths, their hit rating can dip into the lower 200s while their DPS is going significantly up.

Hit is strong, but the stats on the T5 set pieces (only one of which has hit rating on it) is much stronger, and many other pieces exist in T5 that are strong but have less hit on them. (Shoulderpads of the Stranger, Tsunami Talisman, the neck off Kael, etc)

Last edited by Shaker : 12/06/07 at 2:35 PM.
#591SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Aldriana
And just to take that one step further: even the point where you start missing specials isn't a "magic number". In practice, of course, it's almost never a good idea to drop that far; however, even at the point when specials start missing, it's still a tradeoff of "how much damage do I gain from this item versus that item" - the value of hit is just a bit higher. If you can get 10 AP for dropping 2 hit rating, it's still worth it, no matter how low your hit is.

That said, the gear recommendations in the rest of the post are generally good, even if the logic behind them is a bit off.
#592SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0krusty50
Originally Posted by Shaker View Post
Please don't propagate the 'magic number' hit rating thing - there is no magic number for hit rating (edit: as long as you aren't hit capped (363), or missing specials, that is). Especially when rogues move from T4->T5, following SEVERAL optimal upgrade paths, their hit rating can dip into the lower 200s while their DPS is going significantly up.

Hit is strong, but the stats on the T5 set pieces (only one of which has hit rating on it) is much stronger, and many other pieces exist in T5 that are strong but lack hit on them. (Shoulderpads of the Stranger, Tsunami Talisman, the neck off Kael, etc)
Tsunami Talisman has 10 hit rating. You might want to remove it from that list :P
#593SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
 Shaker
Originally Posted by krusty50 View Post
Tsunami Talisman has 10 hit rating. You might want to remove it from that list :P
Sorry, I mean the general trend from "lots of hit" to not much - I'll edit the post to be more clear with that, but when you're talking about replacing a Romulo's Poison Vial with a Tsunami Talisman or a DST, you're dropping 20-30 hit. The idea of the post was that someone sitting at 270 hit shouldn't go "Oh, hm, I heard I shouldn't go below 270 hit, should I replace my Romulo's with a Tsunami?" The answer is yes.

And yeah, I didn't mean to jump on Hanos' recommendations, they are very solid ones (though after running my own numbers, I've seen that the S3 BP is damn close to the FLK one, and I'm now using the S3 hat since it's better than anything in T5) - I just have struggled to stomp out the 'magic number' syndrome in my own guild, and well, call it a personal crusade.


And for purposes of definition, when I say "magic number", I basically mean where the graph loses continuity, and there's a noticable jump in value. It's around those 'magic numbers' that re-evaluations of gear choices have to be made.

A short list of the ones I personally believe in:
- 363 hit rating - after which hit rating has a value of 0 for rogues with 5/5 precision.
- 63 hit rating - below which specials miss and the value of hit rating increases noticably
- 63 expertise rating w/ Weapon Expertise (or 26 TOTAL expertise) - after which theoretically you should have no dodges/parries (assuming 6.5% boss mob avoidance, which is correct for dodge according to best data so far)

That's just kinda odd, how all of them have 63 in them. :P Spooky!

There's also an upper limit on Armor Penetration, but that should be ~2k on caster bosses, and ~3k on normal bosses.

Last edited by Shaker : 12/06/07 at 2:53 PM.
#594SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Dontmindme
If you are comparing Combat Daggers from the DPS spreadsheet, the formula has been screwed up for the last few iterations. Unbuffed DPS is using 165% base weapon damage for Backstab weapon damage (instead of the correct 150%) but has the 150% to AP correct. Buffed DPS is using 150% base weapon damage, but adding a whopping 165% to AP damage instead of the correct 150%. It's been inaccurate for Combat Daggers for awhile and may be part of the reason Daggers are showing as better than Maces.
#595SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0mmaker
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
1) What does it even mean to say "it's the extra talent points and not the spec"? The spec has fewer spare points to dump into auxillary DPS talents. This is (one of) the reasons why it's inferior. If Opportunity was in Combat or Assassination, might the situation be better? Well, it'd be better, but whether it would be enough is a hard question to answer... there are other things going on.

2) I don't know about your gear, but with the default gear in the 0.8 Rogue Gear Spreadsheet, I show 1469.22 DPS without Murder (1506.59 with) for Arena 3 swords, and 1433.54 for Arena 3 Daggers. I'm not saying there isn't gear where daggers keep up; I've just never seen it.
1) ye exactly, why should a certain weapon specc in combat have more off talents to use then the other weapon specc? thats not fair.

2) im using RogueDPS_2_3_0_3.xls spreadsheet, maybe thats why.

Just checked RogueDPS_2_3_2_2.xls, newest version, with standard sheet gear(T6 eq), s3 swords vs s3 dagger mainhand and messeger of fate offhand and get the same results.
Checked rogue dps 0.8 sheet and it show a different view. So some differents between those sheets then.
#596SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Idk
I'm getting back into playing rogue after someone made me a 1000g bet that I can't do 1200 dps with a rogue in T4/ZA gear (I just so happen to have a toon at close to this gear level). I'm confident I can do this with a combat or hemo build but I am curious about mutilate.

I like the idea of "solving" the mutilate/sealfate problem. I think the way that I'll approach it is to write a combat simulator instead of the way the spreadsheet does it (which essentially calculates averages). It may take many trials of the simulator to get results that converge, but there's also value in knowing how much a spec can vary based on luck. A simulator makes it much easier to factor conditionals associated with the luck-based nature of mutilate.. you can make 4cp with 60 energy perform a different action than 4cp with 0 energy.. or based on how much SnD is left.

I think what's really missing from the mutilate modeling is understanding how to best utilize find weakness. Are there ways to leverage a lot of abilities in a short window of find weakness and then spend some time letting energy recharge to be able to do cycles in bursts (without ever letting SnD down, of course)? I don't think this is the kind of thing that you can model easily in the spreadsheet.

This isn't a promise that I'll write such a simulator.. but I will think seriously about it. =)
#597SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Hanos
Doing 1200 DPS is going to depend 100% on debuffs at that gear level. In all BT/Hyjal level gear, my unbuffed DPS is only 903, however, my fully buffed, debuffed, potting DPS is almost 2k. Make sure you have an Enhancement Shaman (dropping SoE and WF), a Warrior with Imp BS, a Survival Hunter, a Warlock dropping CoR, a warrior sundering, a druid dropping Faerie Fire and keeping Mangle up, as well as Flask, Food Buffs, and Haste Pots. Without a full set of DPS debuffs and buffs you aren't going to come close to 1200 DPS. Also, only certain bosses are conducive to that level of DPS... choose wisely.
#598SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Vulajin
Originally Posted by Idk View Post
I don't think this is the kind of thing that you can model easily in the spreadsheet.
No, it's not, and this is why I've been toying with the idea of writing a DPS simulator for quite a while now. The issue is that there are quite a wide variety of procs and abilities that need to be properly modeled to obtain an accurate simulation. It's a non-trivial task, and most rogue mechanics are straightforward enough that closed form evaluation is satisfactory, hence why you don't see a plethora of rogue DPS simulators around.
#599SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Idk
Originally Posted by Hanos View Post
Doing 1200 DPS is going to depend 100% on debuffs at that gear level. In all BT/Hyjal level gear, my unbuffed DPS is only 903, however, my fully buffed, debuffed, potting DPS is almost 2k. Make sure you have an Enhancement Shaman (dropping SoE and WF), a Warrior with Imp BS, a Survival Hunter, a Warlock dropping CoR, a warrior sundering, a druid dropping Faerie Fire and keeping Mangle up, as well as Flask, Food Buffs, and Haste Pots. Without a full set of DPS debuffs and buffs you aren't going to come close to 1200 DPS. Also, only certain bosses are conducive to that level of DPS... choose wisely.
Oh yeah, this is definitely raid buffed with consumables, which won't be a problem.

The bet was definitely setup in the context of raiding.
#600SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Aldriana
I agree that we're starting to run up against the limits of spreadsheets in terms of rogue modeling; however, I remain unconvinced that simulation is the correct answer. While it might be viable in terms of banging out custom calculations, I think it would be impractical for doing a gear-comparison type computation where you need to run your damage estimates many times. I think a better approach would be to write a program to do the statistical analysis, taking into account the exact probability distributions and their variance in addition to the mean (which is all most of these spreadsheets use). With such an approach you could be every bit as accurate as a simulation, with the added benefit of not requiring hundreds of hours of simulated combat per damage computation. The down side is that such a program would be a great deal of work to write... which is the primary reason I haven't done it yet. But I do think that if one could find a couple of motivated programmers to work it out, it would be the right approach.
#601SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Idk
I like the idea, unfortunately my knowledge of statistics simply isn't what it used to be.

Perhaps there would be value in simulating just the difficult-to-predict mechanics (like mutilate) to try to devise formulas to plug back into the spreadsheet?
#602SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Aldriana
Even Mutilate I think is better done statistically than via simulation. I've actually worked out about 75% of the behavior by hand before; it's just never been worth taking the time to include that information in a spreadsheet.

In terms of writing a computer program to do this statistically: I'd be willing to write the actual computation package for it myself, but there's a lot of code around that that would need to be written as well. I mean, here's an overview of what would be involved in the ideal rogue calculator:

1) UI for entering gear and talents. Ideally this would also include an Armory fetch so you can point it at your Armory Profile and it automatically grabs your gear and spec. Would also have a full talent calculator page where you can adjust your spec, and a way of changing out gear (probably something akin to the old CTProfiles).

2) Total up all stats, procs, etc. etc. from gear, and pass that information into the damage calculator. Damage calculator chews on it a bit and spits out a damage estimate.

3) For each stat (or maybe each piece of gear, or perhaps both) you rerun the damage calculation for your gear with one additional point in that stat. You use this to score each stat; then, you run these scores against an item database to get a rough score for each piece of gear to build a list of "these pieces of gear are good".

4) Then, for each of those pieces of gear, you run the damage calculator again, to get the exact upgrade from using that piece of gear versus what you're wearing. You then use this to build a list of "if you swap out this one piece of gear, this is the benefit you'd expect to get.

5) You display a list for each slot consisting of "this is how good the item is in an abstract sense, and this is how good it would be for you" - i.e., if you're hit-capped, items with high hit would still show as "good" but not an upgrade for you.

6) Ideally, you also add zone filters and the like to restrict the list of gear it returns, and other such nice features. Note also that socketing adds a lot of complexity to the above.

So, you'll note that this contains a lot of sorting and UI-type work above and beyond the actual calculator; the damage calculator itself, while perhaps the more technically sophisticated piece that requires the most knowledge, is probably less than half of the actual code that needs to be written. The rest doesn't require any particular patience or even that much coding sophistication; just lots and lots of time and effort.

Note also that you can get away without a lot of the fancy UI tweaks and gismos, but you fundamentally do need:

a) A way of entering your gear
b) A way of entering your spec
and
c) A way of displaying a damage number and an upgrades list

even if you do nothing else - and that's still work.

So, yeah. You probably only need one programmer with actual understanding of the mechanics and statistics that go into the DPS calculations - and I'd be willing to be that one - but you'd still need some people to invest the time and effort to write all the rest as well.
#603SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Shaker
What language do you primarily work in, Ald, and what parameters would you require (obviously a string-like representation of the build, but can you just sum up the gear and provide the numbers?)... I'm basically asking what the "Calculate DPS" function's parameters would be.
#604SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Aldriana
Well, I could probably write this in any reasonable programming language (no Befunge or Intercal, thanks) - but were it up to me, I'd probably use Python. In particular, I've been doing quite a bit of stuff with Django (a python-based web framework) at work lately, so the natural way of approaching this problem - at least for me - would be to set it up as a webapp written in Django with the underlying computation done in Python. I'm open to suggestions, though.

In terms of actual implementation details - we should probably adjourn to private messages (or, if enough people get interested, make a thread for it rather than taking over this one), but, under the above design philosophy of doing this with Django and Python, the natural inputs would probably be dictionaries, one for gear and one for spec. And I suppose at some point you'd also need to track race, buffs/debuffs, opponent armor values, and a few other such things. Some design work would need to go into figuring out what gets tracked where if this were actually going to be made to happen at some point.

Oh, and as long as we're dreaming: in a totally ideal world, the UI and general framework would want to be written in a class-independant way, such that if, sometime down the road, people were feeling ambitious, they could write a damage calculator and a talent page and without changing the underlying framework generate a similar calculator for another class.

In short: there's a fair amount of thought and design that would need to go into this if one wanted to truly do it right. I've thought through some of the issues, but there's plenty I haven't; if this project has the support to actually get off the ground, we'd need to talk over these various issues and work them out before we started coding in a serious way.
#605SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0XooleX
Not sure if this would be helpful to you, but there is a program for rating bearform tanking items with an interface similar to what you described above. (Getting character info from the armory, searching for upgrades, changing items slot by slot, changing gems/enchants, etc) I don't know, maybe you could talk to the creator of that program and try to save some work on the gui.
The Druid Wiki � Rawr
#606SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0koaschten
Aldriana drop Tornhoof a pm, he currently is already working on a simulator and gear optimizer using some "genetic algorithm". I have no idea what that is, but it's nerdy enough for me.

[Math models] Request for assistance
#607SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Aldriana
I saw his post, but the impression I got on first reading was that his setup wasn't going to handle all the compexity of a rogue cycle. I think for caster rotations it looks like it would work great, but for rogue cycles there's just so much more going on. I guess fundamentally it depends on how "pluggable" his API is.

Of course, the other side of the situation is that I'm somewhat partial to the idea of building out a website around rogue theorycraft, as I can think of a number of other features that would fun to add beyond the gear optimizer. Of course, that's even *more* work, but... hey, I can dream, right?
#608SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Aura
Just gonna squeeze this in since I didn't find much information about armors etc. Currently I just acquired 4 piece Tier 5 (chance on attack to make next move cost no energy). I was just wondering how much DPS am I getting from the proc, which I might add doesn't proc often (still need to check proc rate though). And how much better is 4 piece T5 from 2 piece T4, cause it seems im getting better rotations with the 2 piece T4. Thanks.
#609SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0evl
On the subject of balancing hit/ap/crit, I'm currently in a mix of T5 + BT/Hyjal non-set epics. I'm currently at 342 hit and 1857 ap unbuffed and I'm still a bit concerned hit is being weighted a bit too heavy.

Armory: The World of Warcraft Armory
#610SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Vulajin
Originally Posted by Aura View Post
Just gonna squeeze this in since I didn't find much information about armors etc. Currently I just acquired 4 piece Tier 5 (chance on attack to make next move cost no energy). I was just wondering how much DPS am I getting from the proc, which I might add doesn't proc often (still need to check proc rate though). And how much better is 4 piece T5 from 2 piece T4, cause it seems im getting better rotations with the 2 piece T4. Thanks.
"Better" is highly subjective. T5 4pc won't allow you to do 2s/5r the way T4 2pc does, but it is a very potent set bonus nonetheless, completely worth running a longer cycle like 5s/5r.
#611SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Aldriana
The key realization about 4/5 T5 is that, unlike T4 2/5, you're actually getting *more* energy to spend. 2/5 T4 lets you spend your energy in a more efficient fashion, but you still have the same amount of total energy. 4/5 T5 actually gives you more energy directly, and thus more damage - even if the cycle isn't quite as efficient.

In terms of how much it's actually worth: the Rogue Gear Spreadsheet includes an estimate for it. Typically the answer is "as soon as you can get it, you should use it, and you should keep using it until you have 2/5 T6"
#612SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Aura
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
The key realization about 4/5 T5 is that, unlike T4 2/5, you're actually getting *more* energy to spend. 2/5 T4 lets you spend your energy in a more efficient fashion, but you still have the same amount of total energy. 4/5 T5 actually gives you more energy directly, and thus more damage - even if the cycle isn't quite as efficient.
Okay, so 2pcs T4 = energy efficiency / 4pcs T5 = more energy. Yeah I did notice some extra 25 energy procs when I do 5 point finishers. By the way, whats the most efficient rotation for 4pcs T5? I'm not sure which should I prioritize, Rupture uptime or SnD uptime? I try to keep SnD up always, but im just afraid of losing those rupture ticks.

Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
In terms of how much it's actually worth: the Rogue Gear Spreadsheet includes an estimate for it. Typically the answer is "as soon as you can get it, you should use it, and you should keep using it until you have 2/5 T6"
If I get 2/5 T6, I guess im gonna use 2/5 T4 with it right?

Last edited by Aura : 12/09/07 at 9:51 AM.
#613SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Shadowlin
Once you break from the 2/5 T4 there's generally no looking back. I'd imagine that by the time you obtain 2/5 T6 you likely will have T5-T6 equivalents that would be pound for pound better than the T4 counterparts plus the bonus. Ultimately, it will depend upon your gear configuration and available options. I'd recommend looking into the Rogue Gear Spreadsheet, as it helps to alleviate guess work and is an indispensable tool in choosing a strategy for gear selection.
#614SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Aldriana
Originally Posted by Aura View Post
Okay, so 2pcs T4 = energy efficiency / 4pcs T5 = more energy. Yeah I did notice some extra 25 energy procs when I do 5 point finishers. By the way, whats the most efficient rotation for 4pcs T5? I'm not sure which should I prioritize, Rupture uptime or SnD uptime? I try to keep SnD up always, but im just afraid of losing those rupture ticks.
It is basically always more important to keep 100% SnD uptime than anything else. If you worked hard enough coming up with a wierd gear combination you might be able to find one where that isn't true, but it's a good rule of thumb. SnD generates more damage per unit time than Rupture does.

If I get 2/5 T6, I guess im gonna use 2/5 T4 with it right?
Generally not, actually, for two reasons:

1) By the time you're at 2/5 T6, you generally have T5-equivalent gear in almost all slots; and for most people, dropping two pieces of T5 for T4 is a larger damage loss than what you gain from T4 2/5.

2) As your gear level increases into the T6 range, the value of T4 2/5 decreases.

Now, if you're in a situation where, for instance, you've picked up T6 gloves and helm but are still using T4 shoulders since Void Reaver hasn't cooperated, you could imagine using T4 legs for the set bonus until you got a shoulder upgrade. But this is pretty rare, on the whole; as a general rule of thumb, using 2/5 T4 until 4/5 T5 and then abandoning it forever is the way to go.

I'd also encourage you to work through the Rogue Gear Spreadsheet a bit; for whatever gear you're currently wearing, it will tell you the exact upgrade provided by each piece of gear and each set bonus, allowing you to work this out exactly for your particular case.
#615SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0roq
Quick question for you long time Sword players. Recently I switched over from daggers to swords and i am finding one problem. Every once in awhile, without AR, i will Build up 5 Combo points and still have a good amount of time of my rupture still up. Lets say between 4 and 6 seconds. So my question is what do you guys do? Do you keep SSIng until the rupture finishes or do you just auto attack then uses the rupture as soon as it drops? This is a problem you never really have as a dagger rogue.
#616SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0royaljester
Originally Posted by roq View Post
Quick question for you long time Sword players. Recently I switched over from daggers to swords and i am finding one problem. Every once in awhile, without AR, i will Build up 5 Combo points and still have a good amount of time of my rupture still up. Lets say between 4 and 6 seconds. So my question is what do you guys do? Do you keep SSIng until the rupture finishes or do you just auto attack then uses the rupture as soon as it drops? This is a problem you never really have as a dagger rogue.
I do one of two things. I either pop the rupture (if it will let me) early to help maintain my SnD cycle or sometimes, if the fight is very static (morogrim, winterchill), I just SS until the rupture is down and lose combo points essntially. \

It's usually a case-by-case decision, what I'm feeling in the fight and how secure I am in keeping my SnD up the whole time. I'd say "do what feels right to you right then". Cause sometimes popping that rupture early to maintain your SnD will seem right, and sometimes just waiting on it will seem right too.

*I know, not really an answer per se, but it's reality for me at least*
#617SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
dorelas
Originally Posted by roq View Post
Do you keep SSIng until the rupture finishes or do you just auto attack then uses the rupture as soon as it drops? This is a problem you never really have as a dagger rogue.
In case you accumulated enough CP and SnD/Rupture is still up, i would just auto-attack allowing the energy to replenish. By the time the energy reaches 90%+ a finisher should end and you start the next cycle with full bar being on the safe side in case Combat Potency will not proc too often.

And if you have consecutive lucky combat potenty cycles than:
1. Spam SS
2. play the lottery

PS - If you have 2/5 of T4 than 1CP for SnD is most of the time enough for sustained SnD and 5 combo Finisher.
I might just use 2 points for SnD in the cycle case you brought up.

Last edited by dorelas : 12/10/07 at 2:27 PM.
#618SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Aldriana
I'd just remind people of the fundamental rules of rogue DPS:

1) Never let SnD go down
2) Never let your energy cap out.

So, if you can afford to autoattack for a few seconds without your energy capping out, you should do that. If, on the other hand, your energy is within a tick of capping out, you have your 5 CPs, and Rupture is still ticking (which, honestly, should be pretty rare), it is generally probably best to refresh the rupture (assuming you're doing a 2/5 T4-type cycle, i.e. 1s5r, which you pretty much have to be if this is coming up... if somehow you get into this situation doing 3s5r or 4s5r, the answer is different). The other reasonable alternative is to toss an extra SS, but my gut feeling is that that is inferior.

If you're regularly and persistently having this problem, what you probably want to do is switch to 2s5r and burn the extra SnD time.
#619SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Alk
Originally Posted by dorelas View Post
In case you accumulated enough CP and SnD/Rupture is still up, i would just auto-attack allowing the energy to replenish. By the time the energy reaches 90%+ a finisher should end and you start the next cycle with full bar being on the safe side in case Combat Potency will not proc too often.

And if you have consecutive lucky combat potenty cycles than:
1. Spam SS
2. play the lottery

PS - If you have 2/5 of T4 than 1CP for SnD is most of the time enough for sustained SnD and 5 combo Finisher.
I might just use 2 points for SnD in the cycle case you brought up.
I don't know. That sounds like you'll waste your 25 energy from RS if you do that.
I tend to always be low on energy to make sure none is wasted.
#620SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Aldriana
It depends on how close you want to cut it, and how good your latency is. I mean, theoretically: if you hit the finisher the instant your energy ticks over 80, you have time to launch the first SS of the next cycle before the next energy tick, so you never clip any ticks; that is:

0.0: Energy ticks up to 90
0.1: Rupture for 25 energy; Relentless Strikes for 25 energy - still at 90 energy
1.1: Global cooldown back up
1.2: First SS of new cycle; 50 energy.
2.0: Next energy tick; energy at 70

Now, the issue here, of course, is that Combat Potency can screw this up; if you get a combat potency tick between 0.0 and 1.2, *that* gets clipped. So in practice, letting your energy tick above 80 while waiting for a finisher is a bad idea with combat potency (or if you have 4/5 T5, or whatever). But if you've been mashing and your energy is at 10 when you get your 5th combo point... you can still afford to wait 6 seconds, letting your energy tick up to 70, and then perform the above manuever, such that even if you get 2 combat potency procs in the 1.2 second window, you're still fine. And 6 seconds of autoattack will easily solve any rupture problem you may have.
#621SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 songster
Originally Posted by roq View Post
Quick question for you long time Sword players. Recently I switched over from daggers to swords and i am finding one problem. Every once in awhile, without AR, i will Build up 5 Combo points and still have a good amount of time of my rupture still up. Lets say between 4 and 6 seconds. So my question is what do you guys do? Do you keep SSIng until the rupture finishes or do you just auto attack then uses the rupture as soon as it drops? This is a problem you never really have as a dagger rogue.
Wait and autoattack. Your energy buffer takes a full 10 seconds to fill up from empty. You should easily be able to absorb 4-6 seconds "wait time" without any loss of energy. Hit the rupture at the right time, and you'll have energy free to spam SS and drain your pool down again.

If you're constantly finding yourself with a full energy pool and the need to wait for rupture, then you have a problem. Best option is to use an extra SS and waste the combo point - it's better than letting your energy tick beyond 100% and thus losing energy. If this is happening to you often, check out the DPS spreadsheet or gear spreadsheet (or both) and make sure you're using the optimal cycle.
#622SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Latito
Just to add to what Ald said (which I completely agree with).. If you are using the BT exalted trinket - this works out even better in your favor. You now can squeeze more SS's into your crit-proc time.

And yea.. whatever you do, the biggest things by far are: (as Ald mentioned a few posts above)
1) Never let SnD go down
2) Never let your energy cap out.

If you can afford to auto attack without breaking rule #1 or #2, do it and rupture as soon as the old one ends.
If you can't afford to auto attack (energy nearly capped).. check your SnD timer. If you are in danger of breaking rule #1, rupture if you can (if it won't let you.. less AP now than when you applied the first rupture) you'll likely have to evis . If you aren't in danger of breaking rule #1, I generally wait until ~80 energy and then pop in an extra (6th) SS. Basically treating it as an "excess energy burnoff" - similar to a warrior tank Heroic Striking to burn off extra rage. Perhaps doing the rupture thing early even if you aren't in danger of dropping SnD will be better - I'm not sure.. but it won't be a big difference either way. Just make sure rule #1 and #2 are followed.

Hopefully that was readable....
#623SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0nelalas
As an [Ashtongue Talisman of Lethality] owner, I absolutely love some energy regeneration time before renewing my 5pt SnD. This allows me to store energy until after the finisher so that I can get more sinister strikes in during the trinket buff. The rest of my cycle is essentially a race to get my 5pt rupture off and build up another 5 points for SnD with, again, enough time to spare for some regenerating ticks. This micro-management of energy use technique for Ashtongue users has been mentioned elsewhere in this thread (I think) as well as the Rogue Gear Spreadsheet thread.
#624SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Achillion
On Rupture Vs Evisc/Envenom

I don't know if this was asked before or mentioned somewhere and I missed it (I didn't read through all pages sorry)

Does the comparison between Rupture and Evisc/Envenom assume Imp Evisc or Vile Poisons?

Also what would the numbers be like if crit rating was taken into consideration for the instant attacks? For instance if we calculate the average damage from 10 attacks assuming a specific crit %?
Would it then make sense to derive a threshold crit % which would make it more profitable on average to use eviscerate or envenom?

*EDIT: I wrote "imp poisons" instead of "vile poisons"

Last edited by Achillion : 12/11/07 at 6:09 AM.
#625SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Vulajin
Originally Posted by Achillion View Post
I don't know if this was asked before or mentioned somewhere and I missed it (I didn't read through all pages sorry)

Does the comparison between Rupture and Evisc/Envenom assume Imp Evisc or Imp Poisons?

Also what would the numbers be like if crit rating was taken into consideration for the instant attacks? For instance if we calculate the average damage from 10 attacks assuming a specific crit %?
Would it then make sense to derive a threshold crit % which would make it more profitable on average to use eviscerate or envenom?
Originally Posted by Vulajin
On Eviscerate: at nearly all reachable levels of gear, Rupture will be superior to Eviscerate on any target that isn't immune to bleeds. At 5 CP, Rupture deals 1000 damage plus 24% of your AP for 25 energy, or 40 damage plus 0.96% of your AP per energy. At 5 CP and with T5 2pc, Eviscerate deals 1245 damage plus 15% of your AP for 35 energy, or roughly 35.57 damage plus 0.43% of your AP per energy. Applying 3/3 Improved Eviscerate and 3/3 Aggression (121% modifier), 40% crit and RED (142.4% modifier), and 30% armor reduction (assuming a typical debuffed raid boss), Eviscerate comes to 42.90 damage plus 0.52% of your AP per energy. Thus, Eviscerate holds an advantage of 2.90 base damage per energy, but Rupture gains an additional 0.44% of your AP. At this rate, it takes only 656 AP for Rupture to overcome Eviscerate's base advantage. Simply, in any situation where you can Rupture, you should Rupture.

On Envenom: Envenom damage is not mitigated by armor, and can be boosted by Stormstrike, Misery (shadow priest debuff), and Vile Poisons. However, in all but the most favorable circumstances (for example, extremely high crit, T5 2pc, RED, 5/5 Vile, Stormstrike and Misery both up), Envenom's DPE will be inferior to Rupture. The more apt comparison to make is Envenom versus Eviscerate. At 5 CP and untalented (talents can boost both abilities by roughly the same: Envenom by 20%, Eviscerate by 21%), Envenom 2 deals 900 base damage plus 15% of AP, while Eviscerate deals 1045 damage plus 15% of AP. However, Eviscerate damage is mitigated by armor, which is typically roughly 30% damage reduction by a raid boss. Thus, Envenom is, at base, slightly better straight-up DPE than Eviscerate. However, Envenom results in the loss of your entire DP stack, resulting in a drop of roughly 45 DPS (before Vile Poisons) for as long as it takes to get the full stack up again. A Mutilate build running dual DP can get enough DPS out of Envenom and DP to make it worthwhile to use. However, for other builds, if you must choose between Eviscerate and Envenom, choose Eviscerate.
Bolded the appropriate section under Eviscerate, and re-quoted the Envenom section to emphasize the fact that at essentially any level of gear, it makes no sense at all to compare Envenom against Rupture. I did not factor in Vile Poisons in comparing Eviscerate against Envenom, because I don't think it's a worthwhile comparison to make. Note that for each point you spend in Vile Poisons, the damage of your Envenom increases, but so does the damage you lose from having to refresh your Deadly Poison stacks afterwards. I'm sure there's a point where Envenom's damage increase over Eviscerate scales to the point where it's worthwhile to use it, but as it is Eviscerate/Envenom are highly situational finishers. The build that would primarily be concerned about this question rarely seems to be run in raids anymore, too.
#626SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Achillion
Originally Posted by Vulajin View Post
Bolded the appropriate section under Eviscerate, and re-quoted the Envenom section to emphasize the fact that at essentially any level of gear, it makes no sense at all to compare Envenom against Rupture. I did not factor in Vile Poisons in comparing Eviscerate against Envenom, because I don't think it's a worthwhile comparison to make. Note that for each point you spend in Vile Poisons, the damage of your Envenom increases, but so does the damage you lose from having to refresh your Deadly Poison stacks afterwards. I'm sure there's a point where Envenom's damage increase over Eviscerate scales to the point where it's worthwhile to use it, but as it is Eviscerate/Envenom are highly situational finishers. The build that would primarily be concerned about this question rarely seems to be run in raids anymore, too.
So I'm a dying breed? Thanks for pointing out the points I missed in the first post (I thought I was paying more attention when reading :/ ). I'm 41/20/0 and I'm currently at T4/ZA level. Used to go Gruul, Maggy, SSC/TK (first bosses) on a weekly basis but only doing 10 mans now (with a 25man IF we're lucky to get ppl). Anyway, the reason I'm asking:

Like everyone else with this build, I find it easy to keep SnD up constantly during boss fights and rupture is on 80-90% of the time. What should the third finisher be? I use evisc most of the time and envenom when I got 5 poison charges ticking (sometimes it's just decided by what I feel like doing). Currently I have both Imp Evisc and Vile Poisons. Would switching imp evisc to murder make a bigger impact on DPS? Should envenom be used at all since it eats the poison ticks?

And the final question: Why is combat-mutilate considered so low on DPS for raiding? Does the -?% on the first post mean it's between -7% and -11% or is that just an estimation as to where mutilate MIGHT be but without any hard evidence on what the % reduction is?
#627SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 songster
Originally Posted by Vulajin View Post
I'm sure there's a point where Envenom's damage increase over Eviscerate scales to the point where it's worthwhile to use it, but as it is Eviscerate/Envenom are highly situational finishers.
Indeed. However, an interesting point is that the situation when you have to use Eviscerate (i.e. when rupture won't have time to tick out) is exactly the same situation that makes Envenom > Eviscerate (i.e. when the DP stack won't have time to tick). Thus my preference for the poison talents in a combat build (4 points spare) is to put them in Vile Poisons rather than Improved Poisons, even though the spreadsheet says the optimal choice is 2 points in each talent.
#628SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0SoAnIs
For those interested in heavy theorycraft number-crunching, check out Sage. It's a rather new computer algebra system available for free (it's GPLed) and about as powerful as MATLAB/MATHEMATICA, etc.
If you want to do statistics, R is an excellent package, also FOSS.
#629SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Vulajin
Originally Posted by songster View Post
Indeed. However, an interesting point is that the situation when you have to use Eviscerate (i.e. when rupture won't have time to tick out) is exactly the same situation that makes Envenom > Eviscerate (i.e. when the DP stack won't have time to tick). Thus my preference for the poison talents in a combat build (4 points spare) is to put them in Vile Poisons rather than Improved Poisons, even though the spreadsheet says the optimal choice is 2 points in each talent.
Actually, I wasn't even considering that situation. I was considering the situation where the mob is immune to bleeds. Funny thing there, though, is that the two most notorious bleed-immune targets (Hydross and Void Reaver) are also poison-immune, and therefore Envenom isn't usable anyway.

Your reasoning for the situation you mentioned is definitely valid. Personally I spend the points in Vile Poisons as well, mostly due to educated guesswork, but even my own spreadsheet only puts them a very very small amount ahead of Improved Poisons.

Originally Posted by Achillion
Like everyone else with this build, I find it easy to keep SnD up constantly during boss fights and rupture is on 80-90% of the time. What should the third finisher be? I use evisc most of the time and envenom when I got 5 poison charges ticking (sometimes it's just decided by what I feel like doing). Currently I have both Imp Evisc and Vile Poisons. Would switching imp evisc to murder make a bigger impact on DPS? Should envenom be used at all since it eats the poison ticks?
You have two options: run dual DP and use Envenom, or run IP/DP and use Eviscerate. If you only have DP on one hand, even Mutilate can't grant you enough DP procs to make up for losing the DP stack on an Envenom. If you have DP on both hands, you're losing a pretty good chunk of potential DPS from IP just to get a questionable amount of gain from switching your third priority finisher from Eviscerate to Envenom. Either way I highly doubt it's actually worth it.

Originally Posted by Achillion
And the final question: Why is combat-mutilate considered so low on DPS for raiding? Does the -?% on the first post mean it's between -7% and -11% or is that just an estimation as to where mutilate MIGHT be but without any hard evidence on what the % reduction is?
Essentially, empirical testing has shown it's inferior to combat, and that's as good as we know, because no solid model of Seal Fate currently exists. The DPS spreadsheet's model is bugged and even if it were fixed, Seal Fate is still a touchy thing to model. So to answer your second question, yes, the -?% indicates that I have no clue where it actually ranks and just took a guess that it's probably inferior to those other builds, but superior to Shadowstep.
#630SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Left
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
...
Oddly, this is somewhat reversed now. In purely sustained fights where swords can maintain cycles like 3s5r and keep very high rupture uptime, they blow past daggers. It is in interrupted fights where swords have a hard time maintaining tight cycles that daggers have the ability to compete, as dagger builds are much less reliant on rupture and much more reliant on simply keeping SnD up and backstabbing. Hence, to the extent a dagger rogue is going to be able to keep up at all, it's going to be on trash and interrupted fights, not on purely sustained fights. Which is exactly reversed from what it was pre-BC, but that's the way it goes.
In theory, I agree here. However, in practice it seems that a lot of fights which are interrupted/mobile hit the second problem with daggers: positioning. (At least, this is true in the 10 man content I have seen.) For example, I had a hell of a time backstabbing the sparks on Curator, or backstabbing Aran when he turned to cast. I've also noticed that totems don't have a "back", making any positional sort of build inferior to a non-positional one on Lynx Lord Halazzi in ZA. I actually have a macro right now that switches me to a sword so I can sinister strike the totems, then switch back to daggers for Mutilate on Halazzi.
#631SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Lithraviel
What am I going to do with this thread is over time establish the effectiveness of both the mongoose and executioner enchants for rogues. First will be the individual comparisons that will eventually include my own studied PPM, then when combining them.

As a rogue, it takes ~14 AP in order to increase our DPS by 1. That being said at AP of (see below) you get an increase to DPS of (see second number
AP: DPS:
1400 100
1500 107
1600 114
1700 121
1800 129
1900 136
2000 143
You can kinda see a pattern here, 100 AP = ~7 DPS increase, now with that being said we all know that mongoose proccing gives a 120 agility increase which is 3% to crit and ~9 DPS increase.
Now let us calculate the % of damage increased when mongoose procs
AP: DPS:
1400 9%
1500 8.4%
1600 7.8%
1700 7.4%
1800 7%
1900 6.6%
2000 6.3%
As you can see, mongoose gives diminishing returns the higher your AP gets.

Let us now look at executioner. What this gives you is 840 armor penetration. A fully debuffed boss will give you -4010 armor reduction (2600 for 5 sunders, 610 for faerie fire, 800 for Curse of Recklessness) I do not believe that we use CoR so our fully debuffed mob will be at -3210 armor. Here is the armor value for most high end bosses.

Serpentshrine Cavern:
Hydross the Unstable: 7700
The Lurker Below: 7700
Leotheras the Blind: 7700
Fathom-Lord Karathress 6200
Morogrim Tidewalker: 7700
Lady Vashj: 6200

Tempest Keep:
Void Reaver: 8800
High Astromancer Solarian: 6200
Al'ar: 7700
Kael'thas Sunstrider: 6200

Hyjal Summit:
Rage Winterchill: 6200
Anetheron: 6200
Kaz'rogal: 6200
Azgalor: 6200
Archimonde: 6200

Black Temple:
High Warlord Naj'entus: 7700
Supremus: 7700
Shade of Akama: 7700
Teron Gorefiend: 6200
Gurtogg Bloodboil: 7700
Reliquary of Souls:
- Essence of Suffering: 0
- Essence of Desire: 7700
- Essence of Anger: 7700
Mother Shahraz: 6200
Illidari Council:
- Gathios the Shatterer: 6200
Illidan Stormrage: 7700

As we can see, on average most bosses have either 6200/7700 armor, minus VR who is at 8800. What this means is that the mitigation done by a lvl 70 attacker is going to be R = (Ar)/(Ar + B)*100
where
R=damage reduction
Ar=armor
B=(467.5*Enemy Level - 22167.5) = 11960 for a 73 mob or 10557.5 for a 70 mob
So the damage reduction for a mob with x armor is equal to y reduction
X: Y:
6200 36.34%
7700 39.16%
8800 42.38%
So lets take out the -3210 armor that we should have from sunders and FF
X: Y:
2900 19.51%
4490 27.29%
5590 31.85%
NOW for the part that we've all been waiting for! the damage increase when executioner procs on a fully debuffed boss mob.
X: Y:
2060 14.69%
3650 23.38%
4750 28.42%
Thus, the damage increase for a mob with x starting armor will be y when fully debuffed and executioner proccing
X: Y:
6200 4.82%
7700 3.91%
8800 3.43%

As you can see, mongoose (at least with these preliminary numbers) does do more for a rogue when looking at damage % increase.

Over the next couple of weeks, I will be tracking the PPM, uptime and downtime of both my mongoose and executioner so expect more data as it develops.

I tested Executioner's procs using Procwatch mod. During the Fathom-Lord Karathress fight this recorded how often it procced per hit and every second of combat.
Recall:
803 Hits
27 Procs
11:11 of Combat time
which equates to ~29.7 Hits/Proc
total of 2.4 PPM which translates this:
Executioner on a boss fight, when consistently using SnD and attempting to hitting the target at all times, this enchant is up around 36 total seconds out of 60 seconds in a minute. These hits btw are counting my TOTAL hits, MH and OH
Trash, this proc is MUCH lower, around 1.3 or so.
My OH speed is at 1.15 with SnD up

Mongoose is currently only on my MH, with SnD up, i run 2.00 speed
On trash clearing to Fathom-Lord, here are the numbers
1451 Hits
58 Procs
21:21 Mins of Combat Time
which equates to ~25 Hits/Proc
total of 2.7 PPM which translates (on trash) to:
Mongoose on trash, when consistenly used with SnD, will run about 40.5 seconds out of a total of 60 seconds per minute.
On Fathom-Lord Karathress, here are the stats (remember that there is some running + wipes, etc etc STFU already!!!!)
692 Hits
27 Procs
10:13 Mins of Combat
which is equal to ~ 25.6 Hits/Proc
total of 2.6 PPM which translates (onto the boss) to this:
Mongoose on Fathom-Lord Karathress (remember that we did have to run around A LOT), when consistently used with SnD will run about 39 seconds out of a total of 60 seconds per minute.
One thing to remember about the proccing of mongoose is it is on my MH only, OH had executioner at the time I was testing.

Posts I used were:
Mitigation formulas:
Mitigation
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...74319573&sid=1
Armor Values:
[RAID] Boss armor values

Last edited by Lithraviel : 12/11/07 at 11:57 AM.
#632SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0royaljester
Originally Posted by Vulajin View Post
The DPS spreadsheet's model is bugged and even if it were fixed, Seal Fate is still a touchy thing to model. So to answer your second question, yes, the -?% indicates that I have no clue where it actually ranks and just took a guess that it's probably inferior to those other builds, but superior to Shadowstep.
This may seem like a completely retarded question, one that has probably been answered numerous times to supposed-do-gooders......

but, why is it not possible to take the idea of seal fate to a math-guru/theorist and have them try and make an accurate model? I know we have some computer/programming experts and even some calc stars (I was fairly good at calc) but as far as modeling something in a mathematical approach, seems like we might have to get someone who does this for a living.

I'd be more than willing to look into it, if someone would lay out WHY the previous attempts didn't work. As far as the talent goes, it seems straight forward. When maxed out, 100% of your critical strikes, per your crit strike %, will add an extra combo point. Couldn't we take a a general concensus of attacks total per average bossfight (I'm guessing around 750-1000) and then multiply in the crit chance (Higher for BS's and such) and then take the number of added combo points over an average fight and then factor in the gains in DPS? OR on a totally different avenue, possibly look at a normal 2-3 finisher cycle and model based on that (allowing more specificity)?


*As I type this I'm seeing the depth of error we could get in to and why most people have steered clear of trying to model this...*
#633SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Vulajin
There was some discussion of the issue in the Hemo vs combat thread, and it really boils down to the fact that Seal Fate is a special case where the normal methods of long-run average cycle performance measures won't be accurate enough to represent the actual performance of the thing.

It's not that it's impossible to model, it's just that we're already pretty confident that it's inferior to combat (from pretty good amounts of empirical data), and as such, going to the amount of trouble it seems like it will take to model it with the degree of accuracy to which we've modeled combat cycles and DPS doesn't seem worth the trouble. If you'd like to try for it, be our guest, as who knows whether Blizzard will suddenly make builds involving Seal Fate viable with Wrath, sending all us theorycrafters scurrying about to model it properly.
#634SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0royaljester
Originally Posted by Vulajin View Post
There was some discussion of the issue in the Hemo vs combat thread, and it really boils down to the fact that Seal Fate is a special case where the normal methods of long-run average cycle performance measures won't be accurate enough to represent the actual performance of the thing.
Wouldn't it be possible to do a short cycle build model and then extrapolate over a larger one, of course accuracy would be diminshed the larger the cycle you extrapolated it over, but it seems that looking at a "boss fight" would be impossible for a seal fate considereing all the possibilities, but looking at a much shorter encounter and trying to model the possibilities would seem more logical...
#635SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Aldriana
I think what it fundamentally comes down to is that there are some people here (myself included) who have a pretty good idea *how* to make a decent SF model; it's just that doing so is a heck of a lot of work, and it hasn't been deemed worthwhile. In particular, the major problem is that one needs to consider variance in addition to the average, as combo points are a lot more granular and a lot less able to smooth out burstiness of cycle. That is, it's not enough to say "on average, each attack genrerates 1.4 combo points" - you have to model it as "40% of the time you get 2 combo points, and 60% of the time you get 1" - which means the problem pretty quickly becomes lots of case work that you ultimately average together. There's nothing fundamentally hard about doing so: it's just a very long, messy calculation that no one has felt like doing, because no one expects to demonstrate anything other than "SF builds are clearly inferior" - which we already know.

Also, I might note that a spreadsheet format is singularly ill-suited for the task. If the aforementioned programming-language based approach ever turns in to something, I'd probably throw a SF model in because it would be slightly less painful to do in that format; but in terms of doing it in a spreadsheet, it's just really not worth the effort in my estimation.
#636SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0royaljester
Well thats good to know, though sad to hear. I figured that a spreadsheet model was going to be fairly difficult with the restrictions that a spreadsheet inherently has, I guess I just hoped that it was still possible to deem that valuable enough to spend time, but it's not my time, so I def understand not wanting to work on something we are pretty sure is inferior.
#637SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Jarath
Hey I was wondering if you could help me choose my offhand weapon. I recently respecced to combat, the plan is to go sword when i get a good main hand sword. But for now I am the typical 20/41/5 combat dagger spec. I am finding the dps is great but I was wondering about my weapons. I am currently using Malchazeen and Blade of the Unrequited (with three+8 hit gems in) both with mongoose. In my bags I have the season 2 offhand sword. It is a fast weapon than my current offhand with alot more dps aswell but obviously my weapon spec is dagger at the moment, which would be better?

Also there is the option of buying the mainhand sword from the aldor and going sword spec now. But obviously the dps on the aldor sword is far below that of Malchazeen.

So basically should I change anything or just stick with the dagger until I get Spiteblade/season 2 MH/ZA MH?
#638SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0royaljester
have you checked out hte gear/dps spreadsheets? Plugging in your information and both specs (20/41 or 15/41/5) and appropiate gear, you'll be able to see a rough estimate of dps based on a normal boss fight.

I'm going to guess that aldor sword + s2 oh will be more dps than you think, and depending on the fight where BS's might be an issue, I'd say it pulls ahead quite a bit. But again, try the spreadsheet and see what happens..you'd be amazed at the wonders it can do.
#639SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Tercero
Originally Posted by Lithraviel View Post
Mongoose is currently only on my MH, with SnD up, i run 2.00 speed
On trash clearing to Fathom-Lord, here are the numbers
1451 Hits
58 Procs
21:21 Mins of Combat Time
which equates to ~25 Hits/Proc
total of 2.7 PPM which translates (on trash) to:
Mongoose on trash, when consistenly used with SnD, will run about 40.5 seconds out of a total of 60 seconds per minute.
On Fathom-Lord Karathress, here are the stats (remember that there is some running + wipes, etc etc STFU already!!!!)
692 Hits
27 Procs
10:13 Mins of Combat
which is equal to ~ 25.6 Hits/Proc
total of 2.6 PPM which translates (onto the boss) to this:
Mongoose on Fathom-Lord Karathress (remember that we did have to run around A LOT), when consistently used with SnD will run about 39 seconds out of a total of 60 seconds per minute.
One thing to remember about the proccing of mongoose is it is on my MH only, OH had executioner at the time I was testing.

Posts I used were:
Mitigation formulas:
Mitigation
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...74319573&sid=1
Armor Values:
[RAID] Boss armor values
I see most rogues on my server running around w/ Ex on their MH (Myself included) Mongoose OH. Is there going to be a significant proc difference when Ex is applied to a slower weapon?

If Mongoose looks to be more beneficial to a rogue would it be better to put it on the weapon that would proc it most often (fast OH)? Or does weapon speed not factor into the proc rate of either?
#640SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Shaker
Jarath: Spreadsheets that answer this question abound, links are in the first post.
#641SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Shaker
Originally Posted by Tercero View Post
I see most rogues on my server running around w/ Ex on their MH (Myself included) Mongoose OH. Is there going to be a significant proc difference when Ex is applied to a slower weapon?

If Mongoose looks to be more beneficial to a rogue would it be better to put it on the weapon that would proc it most often (fast OH)? Or does weapon speed not factor into the proc rate of either?
To the best of my knowledge (and let me be VERY honest by saying that we are still VERY unsure about Executioner except in a broad "it's about as good as mongoose" sense), this is how I personally break it down.

Ex/Mongoose = Mongoose/Ex = Mongoose/Mongoose >> Ex/Ex

That is - Executioner and Mongoose are both strong, and both strong on the mainhand, so it's more personal preference at this time. They're both (as far as we can tell) PPM procs, so mainhand will proc more, regardless of speed (due to instant attacks with the mainhand).

Please note that Ex/Ex is fairly weak due to the funky mechanics it has with overwriting/renewing itself instead of stacking. Unless this changes, my opinion is that Ex/Ex is very inferior to the other options.

It's my personal guess that as you move into more Armor Penetration gear (ZA and T6) that Executioner on the MH will start to outperform Mongoose. This is due to Armor Penetration improving all rogue stats, including itself, so as you get more ArmorPen, it's more powerful (up till you're putting a target's armor at 0). This makes the final graph for T6 rogues look like:

Ex/Mongoose > Mongoose/Ex > Mongoose/Mongoose >> Ex/Ex.

Again this is all "educated speculation" at this point, but (to my knowledge) it's the best we have. If you have concrete information about Executioner other than "Wow I feel like it's up a lot!" please post in the Executioner thread on these boards.
#642SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Jarath
Thanks for sending me to the spreadsheet. Useful although it doesn't have the blade of the unrequited in the offhand dagger list for some reason which makes it hard to get exact numbers.
#643SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Shaker
Well, two things on that. 1) If the gear spreadsheet doesn't have it as an option, it's probably very non-optimal, answering your question, and 2) The DPS spreadsheet should give you the answers, as it has a larger range of equipment supported.
#644SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Aldriana
To be perfectly accurate: Blade of Unrequited was excluded not so much because it's clearly inferior (although, by the metric of .1 speed ~= 10 OH DPS ~= 35 AP, it most likely is) but because weapon socketing isn't wholly hooked up and it didn't seem worth adding purely for the one item that isn't notably good anyway. However, with more socketed weapons of reasonable quality in ZA, it's becoming somewhat more important to handle socketing weapons correctly, so that may show up at some point.
#645SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Lithraviel
Originally Posted by Tercero View Post
I see most rogues on my server running around w/ Ex on their MH (Myself included) Mongoose OH. Is there going to be a significant proc difference when Ex is applied to a slower weapon?

If Mongoose looks to be more beneficial to a rogue would it be better to put it on the weapon that would proc it most often (fast OH)? Or does weapon speed not factor into the proc rate of either?
All the testing I did purely involved Ex in the OH, so unfortunately I can't tell you. As stated, we believe that it is a PPM, but looking into it, I'm not 100% sure about it, just based on the numbers. The thing with Ex is that if you check out the debuffed armor of bosses, it increases your overall damage by up to ~5% at any range of AP. When proccing Goose you have to remember that the higher your AP, the less increase you will get. The thing that I like about Goose is the fact that it also increases my rupture damage, Ex only helps your Evis finisher.
#646SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Aldriana
Of course, it should be remembered that finisher damage is ~10% of your total damage output, so the fact that Executioner doesn't help it is not a show-stopper.

When Executioner was first announced I did a rough estimate in the Rogue Gear sheet and concluded that if Exec and Mong had the same proc rate, Exec would be slightly more damage, but on a small enough scale that you could argue for Mongoose based on the extra dodge it gives (yes, they're that close together). If this assumption is valid, then, it's easy to show that Exec MH Mong OH maximizes DPS.

That said: it's not at all clear that the stated assumption is valid, so take that conclusion with a grain of salt.
#647SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Grunge
Originally Posted by Achillion View Post
So I'm a dying breed? Thanks for pointing out the points I missed in the first post (I thought I was paying more attention when reading :/ ). I'm 41/20/0 and I'm currently at T4/ZA level. Used to go Gruul, Maggy, SSC/TK (first bosses) on a weekly basis but only doing 10 mans now (with a 25man IF we're lucky to get ppl). Anyway, the reason I'm asking:

Like everyone else with this build, I find it easy to keep SnD up constantly during boss fights and rupture is on 80-90% of the time. What should the third finisher be? I use evisc most of the time and envenom when I got 5 poison charges ticking (sometimes it's just decided by what I feel like doing). Currently I have both Imp Evisc and Vile Poisons. Would switching imp evisc to murder make a bigger impact on DPS? Should envenom be used at all since it eats the poison ticks?

And the final question: Why is combat-mutilate considered so low on DPS for raiding? Does the -?% on the first post mean it's between -7% and -11% or is that just an estimation as to where mutilate MIGHT be but without any hard evidence on what the % reduction is?
I've been playing mutilate throughout most of TBC and the only time you should be Envenoming on a boss is when you want to see "Big Numbers" or have a pvp spec (53/0/7 or a variant) or as the last finisher at 1%.

Finisher preference has always been SnD > Rupture > Eviscerate for me.

Poison choice should be WF/DP or IP/DP.
I haven't experimented with DP/IP, which, presuming that you have enough hit to keep Deadly rolling, might be better.

As for the "rough" DPS estimate, I think the reason why mutilate is so low there is that there hasn't been much data gathering on it. From personal experience I can say that it's not as low as 7. But maybe that's just me.
#648SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Kuk
Originally Posted by Left View Post
I've also noticed that totems don't have a "back", making any positional sort of build inferior to a non-positional one on Lynx Lord Halazzi in ZA. I actually have a macro right now that switches me to a sword so I can sinister strike the totems, then switch back to daggers for Mutilate on Halazzi.
Is this indeed the case? I have never had a problem with backstabbing Spitfire Totems; I've done FLK as least as recently as two weeks ago. Is Halazzi a special case? My guild does not run ZA regularly, so I have no experience with that particular boss.
#649SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Viper
Originally Posted by Kuk View Post
Is this indeed the case? I have never had a problem with backstabbing Spitfire Totems; I've done FLK as least as recently as two weeks ago. Is Halazzi a special case? My guild does not run ZA regularly, so I have no experience with that particular boss.
No, totems definitely do have a unique 'back' even if there is no graphical reason for it. Kind of like finding C'thun's back. It doesn't make sense, but it's there.
#650SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Achillion
Originally Posted by Grunge View Post
I've been playing mutilate throughout most of TBC and the only time you should be Envenoming on a boss is when you want to see "Big Numbers" or have a pvp spec (53/0/7 or a variant) or as the last finisher at 1%.

Finisher preference has always been SnD > Rupture > Eviscerate for me.

Poison choice should be WF/DP or IP/DP.
I haven't experimented with DP/IP, which, presuming that you have enough hit to keep Deadly rolling, might be better.

As for the "rough" DPS estimate, I think the reason why mutilate is so low there is that there hasn't been much data gathering on it. From personal experience I can say that it's not as low as 7. But maybe that's just me.
On the IP/DP Vs DP/IP issue: I always use 1.8 speed daggers on both hands and I must say I haven't seen much of a difference on either setup. I currently have 245 HR. The only difference is that with DP on OH I can sometimes shiv to reset the DP timer. For instance at some fights were you have to stop DPSing and DP ticks away and you start hitting again when your 5 poison stacks are about to go out. I've read on forums and guides that shiv should almost never be used in a raid environment and I suppose a mutilate would reset the timer at that point, but it's nice to know you have control and you're not crossing your fingers for a poison proc.

On WF Vs GoA: I've read somewhere around here that WF isn't THAT much better anymore (since a recent downgrade I think). Personally, I always asked for WF (cos the guides said so :/ ) when it was up to me but when I was in a group that dropped GoA I was rarely getting non crits with Mutilate (stick a druid in that equation and it's to die for). I always wondered, since seal fate is our thing, isn't GoA at least on par with WF for assassination rogues?
#651SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0madman
With a combat dagger spec, doesn't it make sense to at least spec improved sinister strike? For the fights that are hard position wise, like Aran. Now that we have the sinister strike bonus from Agression anyway, might as well use the "spare" points in in imp ss.
#652SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Arindelest
I fail to see why you would *ever* use Sinister Strike with daggers in a group environment.

The only reason you might choose to spec Imp SS is to throw a few swords/maces/fists on for farming, but in that event I don't understand why you wouldn't be swords/maces/fists anyways?
#653SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0madman
Well, that is what I'm asking. There are quite a lot of fights that can be difficult positionwise. Aran is probably the best example, but in general, some fights where the tanks move around a bit, like Gruul, sinister strike can help you not waste energy if you can't get around in time. In those cases it is better to use sinister strike than let the energy be wasted, or just use non-improve sinsiter strike. Those talent points are "spare" anyway, it doesn't matter that much where I put them. But if you still disagree, I would like to hear the arguments, which is why I asked in the first place.

The World of Warcraft Armory

This is my current spec.
#654SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Zujamar
Originally Posted by madman View Post
With a combat dagger spec, doesn't it make sense to at least spec improved sinister strike? For the fights that are hard position wise, like Aran. Now that we have the sinister strike bonus from Agression anyway, might as well use the "spare" points in in imp ss.
Well if you're actively doing Karazhan, Imp. SS is a lot more handier than extra 2% dodge on, for example, Aran, Curator and chains of Illhoof. I did that myself and it was certainly worth it.
#655SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Feist-Mok
Originally Posted by Zujamar View Post
Well if you're actively doing Karazhan, Imp. SS is a lot more handier than extra 2% dodge on, for example, Aran, Curator and chains of Illhoof. I did that myself and it was certainly worth it.
Alternately, if you're doing 10 mans, there's a good chance you aren't getting windfury, in which case, instant poison on offhand, and use Shiv - if you have a 1.3 offhand as Daggers, thats a decidedly cheap combo point for probably similar damage to what you'd get out of a Sinister Strike with a dagger.
#656SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Aldriana
The reason why one might SS as daggers is the aforementioned rule #1 of rogue DPS: Never let your energy cap out. It's better to spend your energy inefficiently (i.e., by SSing) than to let it cap out and waste the energy. Hence, when there arises a time where you can't get a BS off for whatever reason (and such situations do arise), SSing does make sense.
#657SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Xoiiku
Originally Posted by Vulajin View Post
On Eviscerate: at nearly all reachable levels of gear, Rupture will be superior to Eviscerate on any target that isn't immune to bleeds. At 5 CP, Rupture deals 1000 damage plus 24% of your AP for 25 energy, or 40 damage plus 0.96% of your AP per energy. At 5 CP and with T5 2pc, Eviscerate deals 1245 damage plus 15% of your AP for 35 energy, or roughly 35.57 damage plus 0.43% of your AP per energy. Applying 3/3 Improved Eviscerate and 3/3 Aggression (121% modifier), 40% crit and RED (142.4% modifier), and 30% armor reduction (assuming a typical debuffed raid boss), Eviscerate comes to 42.90 damage plus 0.52% of your AP per energy. Thus, Eviscerate holds an advantage of 2.90 base damage per energy, but Rupture gains an additional 0.44% of your AP. At this rate, it takes only 656 AP for Rupture to overcome Eviscerate's base advantage. Simply, in any situation where you can Rupture, you should Rupture.
Konnichiwa ^_^

Excellent post, I had a couple questions about Eviscerate and how well it scales with armor ignore. First though, I've read through this bit a couple times from the OP and I still don't understand what RED is referring to here: "Applying 3/3 Improved Eviscerate and 3/3 Aggression (121% modifier), 40% crit and RED (142.4% modifier), and 30% armor reduction (assuming a typical debuffed raid boss), Eviscerate comes to 42.90 damage plus 0.52% of your AP per energy."

So, my question is that I just got the Warpspring Coil in addition to t5 2 set bonus, so factoring these in with 3/3 Improved Eviscerate and 3/3 Aggression, does this come out ahead of Rupture? (if I am eviscerating while the Warpspring coil debuff is active) It seems to, but I've only been looking at my WSS and with all the various raid buffs and such it's hard for me to do a straight comparison.

I used to have the Icon of Unyielding Courage, and would time my eviscerates with that which also seemed to work well.

Also, I was curious how Eviscerate with t5 2set bonus and some armor ignore, if that turned out to do more damage, how would it compare to rupture plus the mangle debuff?
#658SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Vulajin
RED refers to [Relentless Earthstorm Diamond] as indicated at the top of the post.

The answer to your question is almost certainly no. If your procs happen to coincide with your Eviscerates every single time, you may obtain greater long-run performance, but since that's not likely to happen, it's in your best interest to stick with Rupture.

Rupture+Mangle blows Eviscerate out of the water, the AP scaling of a Rupture with Mangle is above even that of an Eviscerate crit.
#659SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Xoiiku
I suppose I could have phrased it this way (if this is any clearer):

When the debuff from the Warpspring coil (or Executioner) is up, and you have t5 2set bonus, would Eviscerate be worthwhile to use/add into your normal combat rotation?

The basic premise is, at what level of armor ignore (either proc based or ambient) and other bonuses from gear, would Eviscerate win out over Rupture?
#660SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Aldriana
So, the issue with answering that question is that it depends on your crit and AP as well as your armor penetration; however, for purposes of estimation; hence it's hard to come up with a hard and fast rule. For instance, if your opponent has no armor whatsoever, fully talented + set bonused Eviscerate will tend to be more energy efficient than totally unbuffed Mangle. However, in practice, you rarely reduce an opponent all the way down to zero, which complicates the question.

Basically, to get an intelligent answer, one must hold 2 of the 3 variables constant and find the breakpoint for the third. So, for instance, the question "if I have 3000 AP and 40% crit, at what armor level does Eviscerate pass Rupture" can be answered - and the answer is, assuming fully talented + set bonused Evis and no Mangle or Serrated Blades, Rupture will do more damage per energy against a target that has 2289 or more armor, and Eviscerate will do more against a target that has less than that. Which tells us that *if* you have fully optomized Eviscerate and no Mangle or Serrated Blades, it will probably make sense at times to use Eviscerate.

If, on the other hand, you *do* have Mangle, than Rupture basically always wins. Even against a target with no armor whatsoever and a 40% crit rate, it only takes 1700 AP for Rupture to match the damage output of Eviscerate - trivial for any raid-buffed rogue. And even at 50% crit rate, Rupture catches up at 2850 AP, which is fairly common. So if Mangle is up, Rupture is pretty much always better.

Of course, this all assumes that damage per energy is the correct way of analyzing the situation. Which, upon contemplation, it probably isn't. But it's still probably a reasonably approximation of what's going on.
#661SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Grunge
Originally Posted by Achillion View Post
On the IP/DP Vs DP/IP issue: I always use 1.8 speed daggers on both hands and I must say I haven't seen much of a difference on either setup. I currently have 245 HR. The only difference is that with DP on OH I can sometimes shiv to reset the DP timer. For instance at some fights were you have to stop DPSing and DP ticks away and you start hitting again when your 5 poison stacks are about to go out. I've read on forums and guides that shiv should almost never be used in a raid environment and I suppose a mutilate would reset the timer at that point, but it's nice to know you have control and you're not crossing your fingers for a poison proc.

On WF Vs GoA: I've read somewhere around here that WF isn't THAT much better anymore (since a recent downgrade I think). Personally, I always asked for WF (cos the guides said so :/ ) when it was up to me but when I was in a group that dropped GoA I was rarely getting non crits with Mutilate (stick a druid in that equation and it's to die for). I always wondered, since seal fate is our thing, isn't GoA at least on par with WF for assassination rogues?
I was using Merciless Shanker/Tracker's before yesterday (upgraded to Shanker/Mutilator).
Seeing how we almost always have a shaman in the melee group (and a warrior) we get WF by default.
Of course if I could I'd prefer a druid+GoA in the group. It's just that generally you get Windfury.
#662SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Ravashak
Originally Posted by Achillion View Post
On WF Vs GoA: I've read somewhere around here that WF isn't THAT much better anymore (since a recent downgrade I think). Personally, I always asked for WF (cos the guides said so :/ ) when it was up to me but when I was in a group that dropped GoA I was rarely getting non crits with Mutilate (stick a druid in that equation and it's to die for). I always wondered, since seal fate is our thing, isn't GoA at least on par with WF for assassination rogues?
WF was changed to not proc anymore from instant specials attacks, but only from normal hits AND from special "on next swing" (like Heroic strike/Cleave). A good extimation on wether is better to have WF vs GoA for a rogue is evaluating your white Vs yellow damage ratio: as long as your white damage is >> yellow (generally true for every combat build) WF wins; with a mutilate spec, you are most likely to see higher amounts of your damage coming from specials, thus benefitting less from WF procs (procs that will also be smaller, due to the fast nature of your daggers). Add to this that Seal Fate will gain more from GoA and you see which totems fits you better

Problem is that all the other melee players in your group (unless its full of kittyes) will gain extremely more from WF than GoA, so it isnt usually worth the change.
#663SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Shaker
As a correction, WF vs GoA isn't strictly based on yellow vs white damage, but it is a good indicator. WF and GoA are a lot closer than they've ever been for rogues, which means I personally wouldn't complain about either. Mut does get a bit more out of GoA, but the real determination on what type of totem you get is likely going to be whether or not there's a DPS warrior in your group. See the Enhance thread in this forum for more details.
#664SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0nelalas
And, again, I want to point out that instead of trying to argue windfury vs. grace of air totems, you should talk to your friendly neighborhood enhancement shaman about using both. Twisting works just fine. I quote a post from a shaman from earlier in this thread when we were discussing this:

Originally Posted by panny View Post
I manage a WF rank 2 rotation with a max rank GoA fine. If your Shaman doesn't have the gear/consumable usage to do this, he should work out whether 88 agility is more overall raidDPS than his shock rotation and prioritise whichever is higher when he's mana constrained (it is most likely totem twisting).

One thing to clarify though: GoA can't be up for 100% of the time due to the GCD. The best you can hope for without losing WF Totem is 81%.
#665SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Shaker
Originally Posted by nelalas View Post
And, again, I want to point out that instead of trying to argue windfury vs. grace of air totems, you should talk to your friendly neighborhood enhancement shaman about using both. Twisting works just fine. I quote a post from a shaman from earlier in this thread when we were discussing this:
This will be removed at some point in the future, and honestly, there's no insight to be gained here - WF and GoA is better than WF or GoA, no surprise there.
#666SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
nelalas
Originally Posted by Shaker View Post
This will be removed at some point in the future, and honestly, there's no insight to be gained here - WF and GoA is better than WF or GoA, no surprise there.
When is "at some point?" No change is mentioned in the tentative 2.3 patch notes yet the common response to totem twisting is always "it's not worth talking about because it will be fixed soon." The last time I suggested Vulajin include this topic in his front page post was mid-October and I was given the same response. Hemorrhage, on the other hand, has seen a flurry of changes recently and is kept rather up-to-date. The "insight" of my post is that using both totems is possible and will likely remain possible for quite some time. I don't understand why it is ignored and dismissed.

Last edited by nelalas : 12/14/07 at 4:12 PM. Reason: typo
#667SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Aldriana
Well, the question being asked is "which is better, WF or GoA". Saying "both" is not a useful answer - it's obviously better, but if the shaman in question considered "both" to be a valid option, he wouldn't even be asking. The fact that he's asking implies he feels he can only do one or the other, meaning that answering "both" is not helpful.

For instance, in my guild, totems are usually coming from resto shamans that have better things to do with their time/mana - like, for instance, heal. So the question of "which, by itself, is better, WF or GoA" is highly relevant.

Thus: it's not so much that it's ignored or dismissed as that it is not always applicable and, in those cases where it is applicable, it is so obvious that people don't ask.
#668SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0nelalas
I understand your point and I do not mean to trivialize Windfury versus Grace of Air theorycrafting. The relative importance of these totems to each other should be understood. However, the answer of "both" is not as obvious as you think; I'm not convinced that a majority of players understand this to be the default answer to the totem question. There are far more obvious instructions and advice given by the senior, well-respected posters here that I feel including the possibility of twisting is justified.
#669SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Shaker
Yes, I'm not saying "it's not worth talking about because it'll be fixed soon" - I'm saying "It's not a rogue topic, it's a shaman topic, and is discussed in the first post of their theorycraft post, because it is highly relevant to them, and largely irrelevant to us". If you only get WF or GoA, that discussion is rogue-focused as to which we should ask for (though it is STILL a shaman issue and is also covered in their thread), if you are saying we should discuss it to bring tell new shaman they should be using it, I'd link them to the shaman discussion instead of the rogue one.

The Enhance shaman in my guild doesn't do it because she feels like it's exploitative - while I agree that I'm not going to report anyone for using it, I certainly believe that it's also a totally valid point to not use it because it's unintended.

To respond to your hemo point - theorycraft integrates with future changes near-immediately - people stopped talking about 125% hemo pretty much the moment that the 110% hemo change was announced (even before the change to the debuff was known, though the real math waited till afterwards). Totem twisting may be around for a while, but it's a 'lame duck' mechanic.
#670SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
ekval
I've started to fall in love with Mutilate again but have few questions.

- What should I do when I end up with 3CP? Should I Mutilate once to archive 5CP (while risking wasting 1CP and losing Find Weakness), or should I finish with 3CP (while having Find Weakness still up). Should I make thumb rule that if I'm going to refresh SnD and ended up 3CP, its safe to Mutilate once for 5CP because Find Weakness doesn't affect SnD. And if I'm left with 3CP and going to refresh my Rupture, it's better to finish with 3CP and have that Rupture done within Find Weakness effect?

- Talent spec. Is 43/0/18 spec viable for PvE at all, or is 41/20/0 only viable spec? It is fairly easy to keep SnD and Rupture up even without Improved SnD, so only thing Imp. SnD mostly adds is few Eviscerates/Envenoms now and then to cycle? Does Precision + DWSpec really outweight Opportunity + Serrated Blades by far? Yes, I've tried to measure this with spreadsheet but I really don't think it is accurate at all with mutilate, for example taking Imp. SnD lowers damage output.

- Even that spreadsheet shows [Tracker's Blade] better than [Vengeful Gladiator's Mutilator], in reality it goes other way around, right? Other thing is how does [Shard of Azzinoth] and [Vengeful Gladiator's Shanker] compare to each other? I presume Illidan dagger is slightly better?

If anyone have more experience from Mutilate, feel free to give tips overall.

Last edited by ekval : 12/15/07 at 11:41 PM.
#671SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Arindelest
Originally Posted by ekval View Post
I've started to fall in love with Mutilate again but have few questions.

- What should I do when I end up with 3CP? Should I Mutilate once to archive 5CP (while risking wasting 1CP and losing Find Weakness), or should I finish with 3CP (while having Find Weakness still up). Should I make thumb rule that if I'm going to refresh SnD and ended up 3CP, its safe to Mutilate once for 5CP because Find Weakness doesn't affect SnD. And if I'm left with 3CP and going to refresh my Rupture, it's better to finish with 3CP and have that Rupture done within Find Weakness effect?

- Talent spec. Is 43/0/18 spec viable for PvE at all, or is 41/20/0 only viable spec? It is fairly easy to keep SnD and Rupture up even without Improved SnD, so only thing Imp. SnD mostly adds is few Eviscerates/Envenoms now and then to cycle? Does Precision + DWSpec really outweight Opportunity + Serrated Blades by far? Yes, I've tried to measure this with spreadsheet but I really don't think it is accurate at all with mutilate, for example taking Imp. SnD lowers damage output.

- Even that spreadsheet shows [Tracker's Blade] better than [Vengeful Gladiator's Mutilator], in reality it goes other way around, right? Other thing is how does [Shard of Azzinoth] and [Vengeful Gladiator's Shanker] compare to each other? I presume Illidan dagger is slightly better?

If anyone have more experience from Mutilate, feel free to give tips overall.
1. Most people who use Mutilate tend to run 4+ cycles. The deal with FW, as you could have found out in the first post, is you want to have almost every finishing move/Mutilate within FW uptime. To do so you'll want to wait to launch your "next" finisher until you either a. Have full Energy (Assuming no 4pc T5 here), or b. FW is about to run out (0 Seconds left), thereby allowing you to Mutilate back up to 4+ combo points, wait, then launch your next finisher, repeating the process while keeping FW up 100% of the time. Sometimes you might get incredibly unlucky strings of non-crits, but this is pretty rare and Cold Blood helps nicely in those situations to allow you to continue this 'cycle'.

2. 41/20/0 outdamages 4x/0/x or pretty much any other conceivable Mutilate spec.

3. I could see [Tracker's Blade] being better than [Vengeful Gladiator's Mutilator] just because the stats are better. Also I believe if you had read the first post like you should have you would have found OH speed makes little difference:

Originally Posted by Vulajin
For combat Mutilate builds, offhand speed is nearly immaterial. this article points out that fast offhands suffer a very slight decrease in Mutilate damage relative to slow ones, most likely offsetting the increase in poison DPS.
#672SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0schit
Please forgive my n00b question, I have looked around in this forum and couldnt find a clear answer to what I want to know.
It is a basic question really:

For a sword spec combat rogue, the main hand needs to be a slow SWORD that hits hard. That is clear.

Now, the off hand, does it NEED to be a sword also (to take advantage of the sword specialization), or can it be anything else (dagger, or mace, or fist weapon) as long as it is fast? The fastest OH weapons i found until now (I am level 49 atm) are daggers (Julie's Dagger is 1.30 speed).

Thank you
#673SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Zujamar
I asked about the 3CP dilemma earlier in the thread and now, based on some personal experiments, I'd be willing to say going for the 5CP is more beneficial. Simplified, you're sacrificing a potential SF proc (~40-60% chance, depending on gear level) in order to get a guaranteed Relentless proc (+40% chance compared to 3CP). Yes, the extra Mutilate won't probably fit into your current FW timer, but after the finisher your next two will. It might be arguable if it's worthwhile to do so when you're trying to refresh rupture (obviously SnD gains nothing from FW), but I prefer the steadier "cycles" the increased Relentless procs give either way, especially when your crit chance isn't exactly sky-high.

And about gemming your Mutilate gear, while I'm pretty sure [Delicate Living Ruby] is the best choice for a red slot, the relation of crit and hit for yellow slots remains hazy. I was using [Glinting Noble Topaz] with what I considered fairly good results (beat [Wicked Noble Topaz] by a longshot at least), but in very mobile fights I would've wished for a better crit chance since, e.g. after Lurker re-emerges, getting back to the point where you have both SnD and Rupture running smoothly could take rather long (taken, my gear was mostly from G'eras and Karazhan). Could this be solved by using a certain cycle while re-engaging and/or is there simply a better way of gemming for Mutilate in general?
#674SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Tosa
Originally Posted by schit View Post
Please forgive my n00b question, I have looked around in this forum and couldnt find a clear answer to what I want to know.
It is a basic question really:

For a sword spec combat rogue, the main hand needs to be a slow SWORD that hits hard. That is clear.

Now, the off hand, does it NEED to be a sword also (to take advantage of the sword specialization), or can it be anything else (dagger, or mace, or fist weapon) as long as it is fast? The fastest OH weapons i found until now (I am level 49 atm) are daggers (Julie's Dagger is 1.30 speed).

Thank you
I used a dagger off-hand as swords for a week while I was waiting for points for my S2 off-hand, and the results were still pretty decent. But considering that an off-hand sword spec proc is probably the strongest thing about sword spec, your daggers would have to be much better than any other available swords.
#675SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Iscariot
Originally Posted by schit View Post
Please forgive my n00b question, I have looked around in this forum and couldnt find a clear answer to what I want to know.
It is a basic question really:

For a sword spec combat rogue, the main hand needs to be a slow SWORD that hits hard. That is clear.

Now, the off hand, does it NEED to be a sword also (to take advantage of the sword specialization), or can it be anything else (dagger, or mace, or fist weapon) as long as it is fast? The fastest OH weapons i found until now (I am level 49 atm) are daggers (Julie's Dagger is 1.30 speed).

Thank you
The slow/fast offhand priority only really comes into play when you have combat potency where, as far as i can tell from throwing different weapons into the spreadsheet, a fast, non-sword offhand will outdps a slow sword offhand. For levelling i wouldnt really worry too much about gearing perfectly for combat potency/ weapon specs as in short fights the difference can be quite minimal i imagine. Just go with the best weapons you find while levelling and then look at gearing properly once your 70

Last edited by Iscariot : 12/16/07 at 11:20 AM.
#676SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0schit
Thank you for clarifying that. I am also doing BG-s and would like to maximize my dps for that.

If I had to chose between a dagger and a sword OH, with similar stats and same speed, would sword be better? I have 2/5 CP, and intend to maximize that as I level.

On the other hand, if speed is more important, then definitely daggers wold qualify, I haven't seen any swords with 1.30 speed, but daggers, yes.
#677SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0ekval
If you have two equal weapons, dagger and sword type, I think its no brainer that you want to use sword one when you have sword specialization.
#678SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Deadlywizard234
DPS gleamed from hit rating beyond SPECIAL ATTACK MAX

QUESTION 1: Ok, I have beyond 64 hit rating, am combat swords specced, 5/5 precision.

According to what Valujin says, you've maxed out your chance to hit ON SPECIAL ATTACKS if you have 64 HIT RATING and 5/5 opportunity.

He assigned a weighted value (2.28) for each point of your HIT RATING to figure out your DPS.

Does that assigned weight remain the same if your moving your HIT RATING beyond the SPECIAL ATTACK MAX (in other words you have 100% chance to hit with special attacks, so does adding more to your HIT RATING beyond that still contribue a weight of 2.28 toward your DPS? One would think that the weight of 2.28 would go down a bit)

QUESTION 2: If the answer is no, than do any of you math savants (compared to me hehe) have a new weight that you can assign toward your DPS for each point of HIT RATING that goes beyond the SPECIAL ATTACK cap of 64

Last edited by Deadlywizard234 : 12/16/07 at 10:02 PM.
#679SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Aldriana
As any remotely decently geared level 70 rogue easily achieves the yellow attack hit cap, discussing the value of hit below the yellow hit cap is generally pointless; hence, the numbers provided for hit here - and in just about every other rogue thread you might look at - are for hit above the yellow hit cap, but below the white hit cap (which is also discussed in the first post, if I recall correctly). Below the yellow hit cap, hit is worth somewhat more.
#680SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Latito
First off, I'll assume you mean 5/5 Precision, not opportunity. If you have opportunity as a sword rogue.. not only are you not spec'd Combat Swords, you are an idiot.

Hit cap is dependant on what you are attacking. Hit cap against equal level players (such as in PvP) is lower than against lvl 73's (bosses in PvE). The hit rating APEP you quoted there was based on a rogue already above hit cap on specials. Going below hit cap on specials would be completely absurd in PvE, and quite bad in PvP as well. I won't go into much more detail.. that should give you the general idea of whats going on though.



On the earlier questions about dagger offhand sword spec stuff.. (assume 5/5 sword spec)
Sword Spec works like this: Any time you attack with a sword, you have a 5% chance to get an extra main-hand attack. It does not matter if your MH is a sword or not. All that matters is the hand that swings. If you have 2 swords, each time either of them swings, you have a 5% chance to get an extra MH swing. If you have just an OH sword, each time it swings you have a chance to get an extra MH attack (with whatever non-sword you may be weilding).

Combat potency favours fast offhands - the faster you swing, the more often you get energy back. A rough estimate used is 0.1 speed = 10 DPS on the OH. This isn't always exactly correct, as a faster OH generates more energy which is turned into DPS by your MH.. so a fast OH will increase your overall DPS based on how good you MH is.

Both Combat potency and sword spec are % chance to proc effects, they are NOT ppm effects. This means that the faster you OH is (assuming sword w/ sword spec), the more extra MH attacks you'll get and the more energy you'll get.

If you have sword spec, it is MORE IMPORTANT TO HAVE AN OH SWORD than it is to have a MH sword. If you have combat potency, a faster weapon is crucial.. the speed is worth a lot more than the stats or dps on the weapon. That said, using a 1.3 spd Searing Sunblade over a 1.4 spd Messenger of Fate would be bad. Using a non-sword OH with sword spec is just dumb.. switch weapons or specs.
#681SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Ashere
Originally Posted by Latito View Post
First off, I'll assume you mean 5/5 Precision, not opportunity. If you have opportunity as a sword rogue.. not only are you not spec'd Combat Swords, you are an idiot.
There's virtually nothing wrong with Opportunity as a sword rogue. Garrote is not dagger reliant, so it gives you a damaging opener, and Garrote increases the damage to that end.
PvE-wise, this means you actually have an opener in raids, and a low-aggro one at that, which is better then increased stealth since mobs shouldn't ever see you anyway.
PvP-wise, Garrote is the only opener you'll ever want to use against mages if you're not dagger specced, 2 seconds of Silence > 1 seconds of stun before the blink. And again, you get increased damage, which is even more important in PvP then it is in PvE.
#682SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Deadlywizard234
yeah it was a misprint, I meant Precision, tks for catching

Last edited by Deadlywizard234 : 12/16/07 at 10:03 PM.
#683SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Latito
Originally Posted by Ashere View Post
There's virtually nothing wrong with Opportunity as a sword rogue. Garrote is not dagger reliant, so it gives you a damaging opener, and Garrote increases the damage to that end.
PvE-wise, this means you actually have an opener in raids, and a low-aggro one at that, which is better then increased stealth since mobs shouldn't ever see you anyway.
PvP-wise, Garrote is the only opener you'll ever want to use against mages if you're not dagger specced, 2 seconds of Silence > 1 seconds of stun before the blink. And again, you get increased damage, which is even more important in PvP then it is in PvE.
I would argue that virtually every talent in the standard 20/41/0 Combat Sword spec is better than Opportunity in terms of PvE. Your garrote is what.. 1500-1700 dmg? 20% more is an extra ~300 dmg. 5 minute fight.. thats 1 dps. Yes, ONE dps. Sure its more dps than say.. MoD gives you, but what exactly are you putting points into Sub tree for anyways with a non-dagger combat spec?

For raiding.. garrote or ss both work fine as openers, small advantages either way. In pvp, yes garrote is great for mages. Can't blind away before you get AT LEAST a shiv and a spam-ability off. Will an extra 300 dmg over 18 seconds win you a game? Not likely. Will MoD win you a game.. quite possibly.

And umm.. when was dps in PvP MORE important than dps in PvE?
#684SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Aldriana
And, in fact, using Garotte as an opener frequently makes you *lose* damage, because it takes longer to run into the boss if you're stealthed than if you're not, so the damage you gain from Garotte is less than the damage you lose from starting DPS later. So I would go one step further and say that yes, in fact, Opportunity is, in fact, useless for sword rogues.
#685SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0ekval
Taking Opportunity only for Garrote damage boost isn't smartest thing to do.
#686SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Aldriana
When discussing the value of opportunity to sword rogues, one can safely rule out the merit of Opportunity for Ambush, Backstab, and Mutilate, as you can't use any of those as a sword rogue anyway. So in the context of Opportunity to Sword Rogues, Garotte really is the only consideration.

Obviously Opportunity is good for dagger rogues, but as the poster in question did specify "sword rogue" it lies beyond the scope of the response.
#687SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0kralj1
HR

What is max HR?
#688SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Arindelest
Originally Posted by kralj1 View Post
What is max HR?
Please read the first post instead of coming into a thread with a question where the answer has already been *clearly* posted.

@ Aldriana: I tend to think it depends on exactly what you're fighting here. A lot of bosses you'll need to give your tank a little time for aggro, in the meanwhile you can safely run up to the boss in stealth and open with Garrote. Of course it's all dependent on your DPS vs your tank's TPS: all tanks are not created equal and therefore there may be more/less time before you can start attacking.

On the whole however I tend to think Opportunity is the slimmest of DPS gains (as someone posted above, *1* DPS if you're fighting bosses that only last 5 minutes and it's actually viable to Garrote); unless you're a die-hard min-max'er I'd say it's pretty easy to skip this in favor of MoD. My final thought is that as of 2.3.2 (with Hemo nerfed) it looks like Combat Swords will become the top raiding spec again, and there would be no reason to put talents into Sub.
#689SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Aldriana
In general I agree; I've certainly played with tanks who needed some ramp-up time to hold aggro. However, in those cases, optimizing damage is to some extent irrelevant; you can only do as much damage as the tank has aggro, no matter how highly optimized (or not) your build. And even in this situation, it's better to attack early with less damaging moves than it is to wait 15 seconds and then start nuking all-out, because the sooner you generate any aggro at all on the boss, the sooner you can start feinting - and feint, in an aggro-limited situation, is pure damage added. Thus, when dealing with an aggro limited tank, I generally open very early and just autoattack/feint for a little while before cutting loose with full DPS cycles.

And, of course, with a good tank and a well-coordinated guild, aggro shouldn't be an issue at all. If the tank gets a misdirect or two and starts bombing good aggro rotations, one can open full strength almost immediately without danger. I die more often to getting careless about vanishing and overaggroing 3 minutes into the fight than I do from pulling at the beginning.
#690SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0koaschten
Aldrianna said the f-word :X

But i don't want to start a discussion on feint... it has its uses, but well, today an auto-attack crit does more aggro than a feint removes and feint being a 10 second cooldown doesnt help that much about it, considering you can easily push a Mainhand to 1.7-1.4 and an Offhand to below 1.0.
#691SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Aldriana
Don't get me wrong: Feint isn't a particularly good skill, and as a general rule you want to avoid using it whenever possible. But, it isn't totally useless; if, for instance, in the first 30 sec of a fight, your tank only generates, say, 15000 aggro, you would normally be limited to doing 30000 damage in this time. If, on the other hand, you slip in 3 feints, you can do an extra 3000 (or so; I forget the exact aggro reduction of feint) damage during that 30 seconds. Is that a lot? No, not really. Over a 10 min fight, it's only 5 DPS. But it's something; I'd rather have that 3000 extra damage than not have it. Clearly it's even better if your tank puts out 30k aggro in that time so you can just nuke all out, but not all of us are so blessed with a good tank, and, as such, it's worth knowing how best to manage the situation.
#692SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0koaschten
Feint Rank 6
Threat Value: -1050
The problem is, even though its a negative value, it gets modified by the Rogues inherent threat-reduction (29%) and Salvation (30%)/Tranquil Air (20%). So in todays standard raid situation if you got Salvation and Feint, you will drop 1050*(1-0.3)*(1-0.29)= 521.85 threat. As i said, its worth about a white attack
#693SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Karmon
Originally Posted by koaschten View Post
Feint Rank 6
Threat Value: -1050
The problem is, even though its a negative value, it gets modified by the Rogues inherent threat-reduction (29%) and Salvation (30%)/Tranquil Air (20%). So in todays standard raid situation if you got Salvation and Feint, you will drop 1050*(1-0.3)*(1-0.29)= 521.85 threat. As i said, its worth about a white attack
But your white attack is modifed by the threatreduction as well
So in the end a single feint will remove the threat effect of 1050 damage.

I think the better description is:
Feint Rank 6
Damge: -1050 (note the Minus sign!)
That should make it realy clear what is going on.
#694SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Left
Originally Posted by Viper View Post
No, totems definitely do have a unique 'back' even if there is no graphical reason for it. Kind of like finding C'thun's back. It doesn't make sense, but it's there.
Hmm, I'll try harder next time? (I didn't try too hard, because after circling the first totem a few times trying to mutilate it, I gave up and switched to SS. So I just assumed that they didn't have a back.)

In any case, without an easy visual cue to distinguish the totem's "back", you may waste too much time trying to get into position. If the totem involves a good bit of run time to get to it, the extra positioning may even cause energy to tick past 100 as well, in which case switching weapons and dropping SS is preferred anyway. To each his own, I guess, but I found it just too awkward to try to do (as evidenced by the fact that I was never successful and incorrectly concluded it wasn't possible).
#695SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Hanos
Originally Posted by Shaker View Post
To the best of my knowledge (and let me be VERY honest by saying that we are still VERY unsure about Executioner except in a broad "it's about as good as mongoose" sense), this is how I personally break it down.

Ex/Mongoose = Mongoose/Ex = Mongoose/Mongoose >> Ex/Ex

That is - Executioner and Mongoose are both strong, and both strong on the mainhand, so it's more personal preference at this time. They're both (as far as we can tell) PPM procs, so mainhand will proc more, regardless of speed (due to instant attacks with the mainhand).

Please note that Ex/Ex is fairly weak due to the funky mechanics it has with overwriting/renewing itself instead of stacking. Unless this changes, my opinion is that Ex/Ex is very inferior to the other options.

It's my personal guess that as you move into more Armor Penetration gear (ZA and T6) that Executioner on the MH will start to outperform Mongoose. This is due to Armor Penetration improving all rogue stats, including itself, so as you get more ArmorPen, it's more powerful (up till you're putting a target's armor at 0). This makes the final graph for T6 rogues look like:

Ex/Mongoose > Mongoose/Ex > Mongoose/Mongoose >> Ex/Ex.

Again this is all "educated speculation" at this point, but (to my knowledge) it's the best we have. If you have concrete information about Executioner other than "Wow I feel like it's up a lot!" please post in the Executioner thread on these boards.
This is the same conclusion I came to, and I am still missing 2 pieces of armor penetration gear. Currently I have the T6 Gloves, Stormrage Signet Ring, Warp-Spring Coil, Madness of the Betrayer and a Blade of Infamy with Executioner on it (I also have one with Mongoose... we got a bunch of them). My plan is to use Executioner on low armor bosses and Mongoose on higher armor bosses. I also still plan to pick up the T6 shoulders (second in line now) and the ZA Ring, which should give me another ~250 passive -armor.

Basically if your guild doesn't use Faerie Fire, CoR and Sunder then Mongoose is always better. If your guild fully debuffs the mob, then it depends on how much -armor you have from other gear. If you can get above the threshold, then Executioner surpasses Mongoose, if you can't it doesn't. My guess is we will see more -armor gear in Sunwell, which will make hitting that point significantly easier.
#696SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0royaljester
Originally Posted by Hanos View Post
This is the same conclusion I came to, and I am still missing 2 pieces of armor penetration gear. Currently I have the T6 Gloves, Stormrage Signet Ring, Warp-Spring Coil, Madness of the Betrayer and a Blade of Infamy with Executioner on it (I also have one with Mongoose... we got a bunch of them). My plan is to use Executioner on low armor bosses and Mongoose on higher armor bosses. I also still plan to pick up the T6 shoulders (second in line now) and the ZA Ring, which should give me another ~250 passive -armor.

Basically if your guild doesn't use Faerie Fire, CoR and Sunder then Mongoose is always better. If your guild fully debuffs the mob, then it depends on how much -armor you have from other gear. If you can get above the threshold, then Executioner surpasses Mongoose, if you can't it doesn't. My guess is we will see more -armor gear in Sunwell, which will make hitting that point significantly easier.
I like that idea. Its simple logic and at least until we get hard numbers on procs, is a good guide to follow.

I've looked at getting my ToA with exec and then putting goose on my first BoI (If we could be so lucky to get 1512341234 like some ppl) but we'll see what happens. Hopefully by the time I get it, we have more definitive proof as to which is better, at least in some situations.

Good post .
#697SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Hanos
Originally Posted by royaljester View Post
I like that idea. Its simple logic and at least until we get hard numbers on procs, is a good guide to follow.

I've looked at getting my ToA with exec and then putting goose on my first BoI (If we could be so lucky to get 1512341234 like some ppl) but we'll see what happens. Hopefully by the time I get it, we have more definitive proof as to which is better, at least in some situations.

Good post .
Yeah, I think my second BoI was #6 or #7 for the guild, on the other hand we have yet to get a sword from Archimonde (1 or 2-hander), needless to say our mages (and Arms Warrior) are a little bitter.
#698SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0schit
Originally Posted by Latito View Post
On the earlier questions about dagger offhand sword spec stuff.. (assume 5/5 sword spec)
Sword Spec works like this: .....
Thank you Latito. Clear answer. Appreciate it.
#699SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Dontmindme
Ok, so I just went on the PTR to figure out how the new addition to Sinister Calling works. Using various low range weapons (1-3 Dirk and 1-3 Mace) at different attack power ratings and checking the synergy with Opportunity.

The result is the following:
[Weapon Damage] = [Base Weapon] + [Attack Power]/14*[Normalized Weapon Speed]
[Normalized Weapon Speed] = 1.7 for Daggers; 2.4 for Swords, Maces, Fists
New Hemo
(1.1+0.02*[ranks of Sinister Calling])*[Weapon Damage]

It truly does only add to the base damage multiplier...

Now, the discovery...
Backstab was not working according to expectations. The damage was not matching up correctly to theorycraft...
After playing with numbers on a spreadsheet trying to figure out what was getting multiplied where and hitting Level 1 mobs (with Serrated Blades making the Armor 0), I couldn't make it add up correctly.
Until, I considered...what if, the +255 already includes a multiplier...
The new correct formula for backstab:
(1.5+0.02*[ranks of Sinister Calling])*[Weapon Damage + 170]*(1+ 0.02*[ranks of Aggression]+[Surprise Attacks]+0.04*[ranks of Opportunity])

And, by the way, new Shadowstep does not award a Combo point.

I'll have a new version of the DPS Spreadsheet ready shortly.

Thought I'd share my discoveries first so Aldriana will have the correct formulas as well.
#700SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Aldriana
Ah, okay. So if I'm reading you right, Backstab with 5/5 Sinister Calling would have a base damage of 160% + 272, rather than the 160% + 255 one might normally expect? Good to know, and easy enough to change. I still don't think it's going to make a particularly large difference to overall viability of deep-sub dagger builds for raiding, though; you just have to give up too much important stuff for what you get in exchange.
#701SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Dontmindme
Yes, 160% + 272 would be correct.

True enough. Daggers have enough problems and going deep Subtlety instead of deep combat doesn't help. But, the important thing is that Hemo damage is 120% with Full sinister calling instead of 121% as it would be if it were multiplicative. Although a minor difference, its at least relevant to specs people might consider. And, of course, that the Shadowstep Combo point is no more, replaced by movement speed.
#702SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Deadlywizard234
To achieve the high end DPS using the Sword + Mace (as stated by Vulajin), is it better to use the sword in your main hand and mace in off hand, or the other way around.


Here is a better way to ask my question...... (this is assuming your specced for combat sword + mace the way Valujin suggested)

Pretend that you have a mace and a sword each having 2.9 speed and 200-300 dmg.

Also you have a mace and a sword each having 1.5 speed and 100-180 dmg.




Should you use the 2.9 speed sword in main hand and 1.5 speed mace in off hand, or the other way around?

Last edited by Deadlywizard234 : 12/18/07 at 1:41 AM.
#703SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Vulajin
The purpose of a dual weapon spec (where one of them is sword spec) is that you use an offhand sword, whose sword spec procs will cause swings with the main hand weapon, and those swings will be affected by the weapon spec for the type of weapon you're using in your main hand.

In other words, with fist+sword spec your offhand sword spec procs grant you main hand fist attacks with increased crit chance.
#704SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Szyslak
Do you think the Combo [Talon of the Phoenix] and [Akil'zon's Talonblade] (both specced in an 15/46/0 combat build) is superior to S2 Maces 20/41/0 specced?
#705SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Vulajin
Originally Posted by Szyslak View Post
Do you think the Combo [Talon of the Phoenix] and [Akil'zon's Talonblade] (both specced in an 15/46/0 combat build) is superior to S2 Maces 20/41/0 specced?
I'm sure you couldn't possibly have used any of the several rogue spreadsheets to answer this question for yourself.
#706SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Szyslak
I did. And the DPS nearly stayed the same (a bit lower) so I ask myself if that DPS sheet is considering the offhand sword proc triggering a main hand attack issue. And I'm not an Excel guru so I can't find this out for myself.

A nice step would be giving me a small hint where I can find a DPS sheet that is proven to consider this issue or just a Yes/No :-)
#707SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Vulajin
Both sheets are "proven to consider [that] issue." No answer that I can give you would come from a location other than those spreadsheets.
#708SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0totalbodygym
I'd like to start this post with an apology. I've searched through the thread for the information I'm looking for, and I just haven't quite found it. If I accidentally missed it, please link to the post.

I'm looking for detailed information and testing on raiding mutilate in Hyjal/BT. Any and all feedback to the following would greatly be appreciated.


Encounters:
I can already see that speccing any form of daggers will hurt my damage for several encounters, more specifically Hyjal trash, Gurtogg, and Kael'thas (thankfully we only kill him rarely for keying recruits).

Ideal Group composition: Currently I would have my choice of two groups.
Physical DPS group 1 normally consists of 2-3 dps warriors, enhancement shaman, 1-2 rogues.
Physical DPS group 2 normally consists of 2 hunters, feral druid, resto shaman (dropping GoA), and a paladin.

If we need to roll dps heavy and there are 3 rogues and 3 dps warriors in raid, we tend to stick a rogue in the second group.


Personal stats and gearing:
My Armory: http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...n=Totalbodygym
(for weapons I currently have s2 mh and oh daggers)
I am currently working on my crit rating which I believe needs to be closer to 30% unbuffed. I am also about 1-2 months away from Ashtongue Deathsworn exalted, and I wouldn't spec for mutilate until then.

Once at ~30% crit rating, I believe that being in group 2 with GoA and a Feral druid, along with the exalted BT trinket, I could push a sustained Crit rating of ~40-45%.

Spec and DPS cycles:
I believe the spec should be based solely on your DPS cycle (which is based on your crit rating), however certain talents should never be changed.

Considering the possibility of sustaining 40-45% crit rating, combo point generation would not be an issue. Keeping Find Weakness up long enough to issue 4/5 CP finishers to keep trinket proc up is crucial (all the while keeping SnD and rupture up as well).

It is my understanding that keeping a stack of DP refreshed while using SnD/rupture/eviscerate (when SnD timer allows) outweighs the burst of using envenom instead of evisc. Does this still hold true? Would I be eviscerating enough to make imp eviscerate viable?

If imp Eviscerate is viable:
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft
I believe the combat tree would be final there. I would need imp SS for Kael and I would probably weaponswitch SS on gurtogg if I received the enrage.

If envenom is viable, I would drop imp evisc and spec into Vile poisons.
#709SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
cablo
Weird crit-% with mace @ pve using SS

Have any other Mace-users experienced very low crit-% in PVE bosses using Sinister strike? Links are to two WWS from Hyjal, combat spec (20/41/0) with unbuffed crit-% roughly 27%, Kael rod + BT trash mace.
Gear and spec at The World of Warcraft Armory

WWS
WWS
WWS

In those recorded fights crti-% using Sinister Strike is like 20-21% while melee crit is ~30% or so. Last night I took recount for the whole BT, ss crit-% 21.3% (7.3M damage)

At the same time equally geared sword-rogues crit 34+ % in same group.

Personally cant explain this, can you?

Last edited by cablo : 12/18/07 at 5:01 PM.
#710SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
 Hanos
Originally Posted by cablo View Post
Greetz,

Have any other Mace-users experienced very low crit-% in PVE bosses using Sinister strike? Links are to two WWS from Hyjal, combat spec (20/41/0) with unbuffed crit-% roughly 27%, Kael rod + BT trash mace.
Gear and spec at The World of Warcraft Armory

WWS
WWS
WWS

In those recorded fights crti-% using Sinister Strike is like 20-21% while melee crit is ~30% or so. Last night I took recount for the whole BT, ss crit-% 21.3% (7.3M damage)

At the same time equally geared sword-rogues crit 34+ % in same group.

Personally cant explain this, can you?

/cable

That is really strange... can't help but think it is a bugged implementation of the new Mace Spec (opps... we added 3% damage on crits, but accidentally lowered your Crit Rate by 3% for each Mace used...).

Also, edit your post to follow forums rules before you get an infraction/banned. (No Greeting and don't sign it)

Edit - Both of the other rogues are going to have significantly higher Crit rates then you because both of them are using the BT Rep Trinket. which is 7% or so to Crit, and when used correctly you can have it apply to the majority of your Sinister Strikes (making your SS Crit rate disproportionately higher) aka you wait until you have full energy to do a finisher, then chain off as many SS's as you can under the buff, then wait till you have full energy again, and repeat. However, your crit rate for melee should be similar to your crit rate for SS which it isn't, but the trinket explains the difference between you and the other rogues.

Last edited by Hanos : 12/18/07 at 5:03 PM.
#711SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0cablo
Originally Posted by Hanos View Post

Edit - Both of the other rogues are going to have significantly higher Crit rates then you because both of them are using the BT Rep Trinket. which is 7% or so to Crit, and when used correctly you can have it apply to the majority of your Sinister Strikes (making your SS Crit rate disproportionately higher) aka you wait until you have full energy to do a finisher, then chain off as many SS's as you can under the buff, then wait till you have full energy again, and repeat. However, your crit rate for melee should be similar to your crit rate for SS which it isn't, but the trinket explains the difference between you and the other rogues.
Actually in those WWS's this trinket was not used by any of us, we all have it. It would show under Miscellaneous gained as Exploit Weakness.
#712SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Hanos
Originally Posted by cablo View Post
Actually in those WWS's this trinket was not used by any of us, we all have it. It would show under Miscellaneous gained as Exploit Weakness.
Are you sure the self-hosted version recognizes that buff? I would recommend using the hosted version as the information is a lot better. I can see them not using it for Archimonde, but why would they both have it equiped but not wearit for a boss?
#713SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0cablo
first of us got exalted in beginning of December, logs are from last month, so I'm pretty sure they didn't have trinkets then
#714SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Hanos
Originally Posted by cablo View Post
first of us got exalted in beginning of December, logs are from last month, so I'm pretty sure they didn't have trinkets then
...interesting, so I guess current gear isn't a good representation of what you were using then, and could have been before the mace spec change (can't remember exactly when that was). Back to my original theory, Blizzard screwed it up with the mace Spec change.
#715SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0koaschten
Back to my original theory, Blizzard screwed it up with the mace Spec change.
Which should be easy to be proved... pound away on a mob with dual mace, white only until they break, with and without mace spec
#716SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0cablo
Originally Posted by koaschten View Post
Which should be easy to be proved... pound away on a mob with dual mace, white only until they break, with and without mace spec
It's not the mace spec in general, the data shows, that melee-crit-% is roughly normal, it's the Sinister Strike crit-% that is off. In same fights at the same time, melee-% 30%, ss-crit-% 20%.


can't help of not thinking, that mace spec with malice is not +5% crit, but -5% crit in specials...

Have any other mace-users experienced same type of bug/problem?
#717SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 songster
Nope. Here's my latest four WWS parses.

Loading...
Schizzle - WWS
Loading...
Schizzle - WWS

The difference in crit rate between parses is (IIRC) entirely dependent on whether I'm in with the feral or not.
#718SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Cos-
I've had my ss crit rate almost 20% below my auto attack crit %. Welcome to the RNG and small sample sizes. "OMG Shade of Akama has a 40% dodge rate?!"
#719SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Gryzemuis
Originally Posted by cablo View Post
In those recorded fights crti-% using Sinister Strike is like 20-21% while melee crit is ~30% or so. Last night I took recount for the whole BT, ss crit-% 21.3% (7.3M damage)
The total amount of sinsiter strike swings in those 3 parses combined is under 300. That's a pretty low number. If you have 25% crit percentage, don't expect the random number generator to give you exactly 1 crit every 4 swings. The statistics for the white hits are probably closer to where they should be, because the number of swings is much larger.

I don't see anything wrong there. You probably just had an unlucky streak.
#720SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Cos-
Originally Posted by moktrizz View Post

we also know that haste Nerf a lot your hit rating, like getting the haste pants from the badges would make me drop of 55 hit rating...

and i'm still think to get those good old libram of rapidity to put on my pant.

so again , anyone had try out to max his/her haste gear ? How did it turn out for you ?
any suggestion would be welcome also ?
My suggestions?
-Remember that haste is just another stat. You can safely itemize for haste by using the equivalency table in the first post. Stacking inordinate amounts of haste at the expense of other stats (that cloak is junk) is just giving up damage for a gimmick.
-Keep cleaning up your post so that if you have to post it a third time it won't end up in the Thread of Suck with the first version you posted yesterday.
#721SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Left
Why is +hit > +haste?

We've all looked at the spreadsheet, run the calcs, run the AEP macro, etc, and it all tells us that (no matter what the spec), hit rating is superior to haste rating.

My question is, why?

In theory, +hit and +haste do exactly the same thing: increase your white hits. 15.76 hit rating increases your chance to hit by per swing by 1%, and 15.76 increases your number of swings by 1%. Don't those theoretically amount to the same thing? If so, then why is hit rating on top?

Let me take this a little bit further... haste is a true 1% white DPS increase, because it increases the number of swings. This means it increases the number of hits, crits, glancings, dodges, and misses all together by 1%. Hit, on the other hand, just converts misses to hits. Thus, it's actual contribution depends on what your hit table looks like. Let's take my stats for +hit (pulling numbers right off the spreadsheet)...

6.50% dodge
5.67% miss
30.96% crit
25.00% glancing (is a % reduction even included for this anymore?)
31.87% hit

For arguments sake (because I can't find the real number), glancings do 85% damage. My DPS weighting therefore looks like...

(30.96*2 + 25.00*0.85 + 31.87*1) -> thus I do 115.04% of my avg. white damage as DPS

And the percent increase from 1% hit is...

((30.96*2 + 25.00*0.85 + 32.87*1) - (30.96*2 + 25.00*0.85 + 31.87*1))/(30.96*2 + 25.00*0.85 + 31.87*1)

(116.04 - 115.04) / 115.04 = 0.00869 -> an 0.869% DPS increase (?)

So why does hit come out better than haste?

The only thing I can think of is that in terms of numbers of attacks that connect, +hit is slightly more valuable. +1% haste increases number of connecting white hits by exactly 1%; +1% hit's contributing again depends on your table. For me,

((30.96 + 25.00 + 32.87) - (30.96 + 25.00 + 31.87))/(30.96 + 25.00 + 31.87)

(88.83 - 87.83) / 88.83 = 0.01125 -> a 1.13% increase in number of connecting attacks.

Specced into combat potency and sword spec, I can see where that would be more useful. But even if I drop poisons from my offhand weapon and use a deadliness Hemo trispec it comes out the same. What gives?

EDIT: I figured it out; it's windfury! If I am not running with WF totem, then when I run the AEP macro I get haste > hit for buffed DPS (0.75 > 0.72). If I am running with WF, then I get hit >> haste (0.91 >> 0.72). It seems like that slight 0.13% difference in number of white hits shouldn't change the rating that much, but apparently it does. Amazing how one totem makes that much of a difference in our itemization. Any thoughts?

For clarification, I am using an 11/20/30 spec in the test, so as not to have Sword Spec or Combat Potency. I also do not have a DST.

Last edited by Left : 12/20/07 at 10:19 AM.
#722SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Arindelest
Let's say you do 100 attacks. Assuming 28% Miss, 6% dodge (the latter is approximated for a boss mob to make this easier).

Your average Joe rogue with 0 Hit and 0 Haste will have a hit table that looks like this: 25 Glance, 28 Miss, 6 Dodge, 41 Hits. Let's leave crit out of it for the time being.

If you add 1% Haste, you now have done 101 attacks, and your attack table looks like this: 25.25 Glance, 28.28 Miss, 6.06 Dodge, 41.41 Hits. Note you only actually gained 0.41 white attacks, and all the procs that come with it including chance to crit on that attack.

If you add 1% Hit, that's essentially converting one of your misses to hits, so your attack table should be. 100 Attacks: 25 Glance, 27 Miss, 6 Dodge, 42 Hits. You gained a whole one white attack and this can proc your procs, as well as *I think* crit.

Obviously, the more procs you have, the more valuable doing more white attacks will be, this is why the value of hit improves more than haste the more procs you have, i.e. Combat Potency and OH Poison.
#723SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Left
Originally Posted by Arindelest View Post
[some stuff]

If you add 1% Hit, that's essentially converting one of your misses to hits, so your attack table should be. 100 Attacks: 25 Glance, 27 Miss, 6 Dodge, 42 Hits. You gained a whole one white attack and this can proc your procs, as well as *I think* crit.

Obviously, the more procs you have, the more valuable doing more white attacks will be, this is why the value of hit improves more than haste the more procs you have, i.e. Combat Potency and OH Poison.
First off, by the single roll table for white hits, a hit you gain from +hit will never crit. It will simply go from a miss to a hit. Hits you can from +haste, however, will, because you are getting more swings in overall (thus more of everything, including crits).

Second, did you read through all of what I was saying? I specifically turned off poisons and used an 11/20/30 spec so that Sword Spec and Combat Potency would not factor in.

And what was surprising me was that, with only Windfury totem and no other synergystic trinkets/talents, +hit was still showing up as much, much, better than +haste. I thought that was odd. It looks like the increased damaging hits per second from +hit outweights the actual DPS increase from +haste by proccing WF more. Odd that it is so much better though.

Last edited by Left : 12/20/07 at 12:01 PM. Reason: Grammar
#724SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Autolycus
Combo point cycles

Hi, I've read a lot of things in this thread and picked up some valuable information, but one question I have to ask is reguarding the combo point cycle one should use with the bonus for 4 piece tier 5.

I've just picked up my 3rd piece of tier 5 and I think I'm in line on dkp to get the the pants next week. I really have no idea how this extra energy is going to work or how it will effect my combo point cycle (currently using 4s/5r). Also, if it procs when i'm about to do a 5pt rupture, is it worth it to use an eviscerate instead? Since DPE is irrelevant when your finishers cost zero energy, I know I'd get screwed on a non-crit evis, but I've recently had them critting on trash mobs for 3100-3399 (highest recorded).

Any info/input would be appreciated.
#725SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Hanos
Originally Posted by Autolycus View Post
Hi, I've read a lot of things in this thread and picked up some valuable information, but one question I have to ask is reguarding the combo point cycle one should use with the bonus for 4 piece tier 5.

I've just picked up my 3rd piece of tier 5 and I think I'm in line on dkp to get the the pants next week. I really have no idea how this extra energy is going to work or how it will effect my combo point cycle (currently using 4s/5r). Also, if it procs when i'm about to do a 5pt rupture, is it worth it to use an eviscerate instead? Since DPE is irrelevant when your finishers cost zero energy, I know I'd get screwed on a non-crit evis, but I've recently had them critting on trash mobs for 3100-3399 (highest recorded).

Any info/input would be appreciated.
You just continue your cycles and they just get faster. DPE is still relevant, and Rupture will do more damage on average every time. Basically it is like free energy, sure you can get 10 more free energy by using Eviserate, but keep in mind that 3100 Eviserate is only a 1330 non crit, and for example my average rupture does 2450 damage, so unless you have a 60% or higher crit rate, you are still better off using rupture if it can tick out. Essentially the 4 piece T5 bonus just speeds up your cycle, but it shouldn't materially change it.
#726SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Left
Originally Posted by Hanos View Post
...but keep in mind that 3100 Eviserate is only a 1330 non crit...
Nitpicking: 3100/2 = 1550. Eviscerate doesn't get multiplied by Lethality. (Doesn't change your point that it is likely not worth it.)
#727SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Zadus
I have a question about human rogues. I know for orcs you cant get the double expertise from axes and stack it to 10. But with a rogue i noticed putting on a sword and putting on a mace it stacks expertise to 10.

My question is would a build with dual weapon spec give you more dps than a combat swords spec? All i would miss out on is vial poisons. Here is the build.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

This is for end game theory. If you get all your t6 the only expertise item you should be wearing idealy is belt of one hundred deaths. So wouldnt stacking 10 expertise plus sword spec plus 5 percent bigger crits and 10 more expertise from talents outweigh 16 percent damge from poisons? Has this been tested? Would losing sword spec procs on the offhand hurt the dps?
#728SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Arawethion
Some cycle questions I couldn't find answers to in here:

I'm currently 11/27/23 with 2pc T4, Gladiator's/Latro's. The spreadsheet and the info in the OP both list 1s/5r as the best cycle.

Issue is, I have a brief SnD drop nearly every cycle. Often less than a second or so (sometimes more if I miss a few Ruthlessness procs), but it's there. First question--is that normal for people running this cycle?

Second question: to what extent is it worth micromanaging the cycle? If SnD is running out and I only have 4 CP, it is better to just hit the Rupture with 4 and restart? Going to 5 risks a 3-4 second SnD drop if it doesn't proc Ruthlessness.
#729SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Aldriana
Originally Posted by Left View Post
We've all looked at the spreadsheet, run the calcs, run the AEP macro, etc, and it all tells us that (no matter what the spec), hit rating is superior to haste rating.

<snip>

EDIT: I figured it out; it's windfury! If I am not running with WF totem, then when I run the AEP macro I get haste > hit for buffed DPS (0.75 > 0.72). If I am running with WF, then I get hit >> haste (0.91 >> 0.72). It seems like that slight 0.13% difference in number of white hits shouldn't change the rating that much, but apparently it does. Amazing how one totem makes that much of a difference in our itemization. Any thoughts?

For clarification, I am using an 11/20/30 spec in the test, so as not to have Sword Spec or Combat Potency. I also do not have a DST.
Seems to me that at least part of the answer might be some sort of bug in the Rogue DPS sheet. If I put your gear into the Rogue Gear sheet with a 11/20/30 spec and pull the EAP numbers, I get:

With WF: Haste 1.73, Hit 1.80
Without WF: Haste 1.63, Hit 1.50

or, in AEP, if you prefer:

With WF: Haste .87, Hit .91
Without WF: Haste .83, Hit .77

Which is a swing from about 5% better to about 10% worse, which is a significantly smaller swing that you observed in the DPS sheet. And, while I confess I might be biased on this matter, I'm more inclined to trust the Gear sheet than the DPS sheet.

Fundamentally, the reason hit tends to do well is procs; WF and Mongoose in your case, those plus Sword Spec, Combat Potency, poisons, Dragonspine Trophy, etc. for rogues in general. In particular, PPM effects (Mongoose/Executioner, Dragonspine Trophy, Madness of the Betrayer, etc.) scale with hit but not with haste, which gives hit a relative advantage. On some of the others (Sword Spec and WF), Hit has twice the effect of Haste; both effect the number of procs that actually occur, but hit additionally applies to how many of those additional procs do damage; the number of extra hits from WF scales as hit^2 while only linearly with haste. And those WF procs may in their own right proc additional stuff, strengthening *that* effect even further.

So, long story short: the exact magnitude of the numbers you're seeing is probably a bug; but the idea that hit gets better relative to haste as you accumulate more procs (such as WF) is fundamentally correct.
#730SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Aldriana
Originally Posted by Arawethion View Post
Some cycle questions I couldn't find answers to in here:

I'm currently 11/27/23 with 2pc T4, Gladiator's/Latro's. The spreadsheet and the info in the OP both list 1s/5r as the best cycle.

Issue is, I have a brief SnD drop nearly every cycle. Often less than a second or so (sometimes more if I miss a few Ruthlessness procs), but it's there. First question--is that normal for people running this cycle?

Second question: to what extent is it worth micromanaging the cycle? If SnD is running out and I only have 4 CP, it is better to just hit the Rupture with 4 and restart? Going to 5 risks a 3-4 second SnD drop if it doesn't proc Ruthlessness.
So, I think the problem that you're having is that your hit is a bit low relative to many T4 rogues, meaning that you're not getting as many combat potency procs as is generally expected for that gear level, which probably explains the cycle-dropping issues. As your gear improves your hit will likely rise into the mid-200s, which will allow you to support 1s/5r; in the meantime, I would recommend using 2s5r to avoid dropping any SnD uptime.
#731SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Left
Huh. I had not thought about +hit double scaling with WF or Sword Spec by letting your extra attacks land as well, but that makes a lot of sense. Thank you for the insightful explanation.

EDIT: I was using the DPS spreadsheet as opposed to yours specifically because it has the AEP macro to make life easier when comparing stats. I do like your spreadsheet, though, and I routinely check builds in each. Do you have something in it somewhere which calculates EAP/AEP? If so, where should I look for it? I'm not as familiar with your spreadsheet as the other.
#732SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Dontmindme
There was a recently discovered bug concerning that. It appears to have a small affect on the DPS calculations, much larger for the AEP calcs for haste. If you want to correct the issue prior to next published version substitute the following formula in cell Q39 in both the Buffed DPS and Unbuffed DPS sheets:
=(I2+I3+I5+I6)*Q37/(I2+I3)-1

The AEP valuation for Haste should rise.

Last edited by Dontmindme : 12/20/07 at 3:23 PM. Reason: Correction
#733SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Aldriana
Originally Posted by Left View Post
Huh. I had not thought about +hit double scaling with WF or Sword Spec by letting your extra attacks land as well, but that makes a lot of sense. Thank you for the insightful explanation.

EDIT: I was using the DPS spreadsheet as opposed to yours specifically because it has the AEP macro to make life easier when comparing stats. I do like your spreadsheet, though, and I routinely check builds in each. Do you have something in it somewhere which calculates EAP/AEP? If so, where should I look for it? I'm not as familiar with your spreadsheet as the other.
Putting a convenient display for EAP is on my to-do list for the Gear sheet, but I haven't gotten around to it yet. For the moment, if you unhide the Damage Calcs page, you can read the EAP value of each stat on row 11 of that sheet.
#734SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Trazhenko
Originally Posted by Arawethion View Post
Some cycle questions I couldn't find answers to in here:

I'm currently 11/27/23 with 2pc T4, Gladiator's/Latro's. The spreadsheet and the info in the OP both list 1s/5r as the best cycle.

Issue is, I have a brief SnD drop nearly every cycle. Often less than a second or so (sometimes more if I miss a few Ruthlessness procs), but it's there. First question--is that normal for people running this cycle?

Second question: to what extent is it worth micromanaging the cycle? If SnD is running out and I only have 4 CP, it is better to just hit the Rupture with 4 and restart? Going to 5 risks a 3-4 second SnD drop if it doesn't proc Ruthlessness.
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
So, I think the problem that you're having is that your hit is a bit low relative to many T4 rogues, meaning that you're not getting as many combat potency procs as is generally expected for that gear level, which probably explains the cycle-dropping issues. As your gear improves your hit will likely rise into the mid-200s, which will allow you to support 1s/5r; in the meantime, I would recommend using 2s5r to avoid dropping any SnD uptime.
He doesn't have combat potency at all. He's 11/27/23. I agree that he should do a longer SnD to prevent it from dropping though.
#735SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Arawethion
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
So, I think the problem that you're having is that your hit is a bit low relative to many T4 rogues, meaning that you're not getting as many combat potency procs as is generally expected for that gear level, which probably explains the cycle-dropping issues. As your gear improves your hit will likely rise into the mid-200s, which will allow you to support 1s/5r; in the meantime, I would recommend using 2s5r to avoid dropping any SnD uptime.
I'm 11/27/23--Hemo, no CP.

Basically, if I SnD down to near 0 energy and get neither Ruthlessness nor Relentless (32% of the time), I need 175 energy for 5 Hemos. This usually means 9 ticks, which is already longer than the SnD. So I'm basically wondering if the recommendation for 1s/5r with Hemo assumes SnD downtime.

Actually, looking again, 1s/5r, 2s/5r, and 3s/5r are all very close in the spreadsheet, and the "winner" changes based on gear/buffs. So I should probably stop worrying about which is slightly better and just use 2s.

------------

This brings up a question--does the spreadsheet overvalue cycles like 1s/5r (with either Hemo or Combat) that risk SnD downtime? In reality, there's fluctuation in your CP/energy generation that's all averaged out for the spreadsheet. However, the fluctuations can only hurt your DPS by causing an SnD drop; they can't improve it somehow (a lucky string or Ruthlessness procs doesn't improve your DPS, it just results in a bit of wasted SnD time). So a spreadsheet would overestimate the DPS of a really tight cycle by assuming full SnD uptime.
#736SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Aldriana
Originally Posted by Trazhenko View Post
He doesn't have combat potency at all. He's 11/27/23. I agree that he should do a longer SnD to prevent it from dropping though.
Ah, missed that, sorry. In that case:

1s5r is not sustainable with tri-spec hemo, even with 2/5 T4. A 1-pt SnD lasts 17.4 seconds and thus you regenerate 174 energy while it's up. To do a 1s5r cycle you need to generate 4.8 combo points during this time, plus 20 extra energy for finishers; 4.8 Hemos costs 168 energy, so the total energy cost of the cycle is 188, which is more than the 174 you regenerate. Even 2s5r isn't quite sustainable; it takes 218 energy to perform 5.8 Hemos and cast the two finishers, and there's only time for 217.5 energy to regenerate. So in practice, even with 2/5 T4, the tightest cycle maintainable with tri-spec Hemo is 3s5r.
#737SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Dontmindme
But Tri-spec Hemo has the Assassination talents. The finisher is basically free. I'm currently running Tri-spec with 2pc-T4 and am maintaining a very tight 1s/5r cycle. My SnD gets very close if I don't gain that combo point on the preceding finisher, but it's certainly doable.
#738SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Shaker
Hence the 20 energy (free rupture (0 energy) + 20% chance for free SnD (25 * .8 = 20) for "finishers".

Also, given that Ruthlessness only has a 60% chance to proc, saying that you're able to maintain the cycle only if you get a Ruth proc means that you're not really able to maintain the cycle. Just sayin'. :P
#739SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Aldriana
That's why the finishers are listed as 20 energy rather than 50. So I still don't see how it's sustainable.
#740SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Ozzmar
EDIT: Found what I needed.

Last edited by Ozzmar : 12/20/07 at 5:28 PM.
#741SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Zadus
Originally Posted by Zadus View Post
I have a question about human rogues. I know for orcs you cant get the double expertise from axes and stack it to 10. But with a rogue i noticed putting on a sword and putting on a mace it stacks expertise to 10.

My question is would a build with dual weapon spec give you more dps than a combat swords spec? All i would miss out on is vial poisons. Here is the build.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

This is for end game theory. If you get all your t6 the only expertise item you should be wearing idealy is belt of one hundred deaths. So wouldnt stacking 10 expertise plus sword spec plus 5 percent bigger crits and 10 more expertise from talents outweigh 16 percent damge from poisons? Has this been tested? Would losing sword spec procs on the offhand hurt the dps?
Does no one have an answer for this? Has any testing been done on this?
#742SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Shaker
The 10 expertise thing is a display bug, you only get 5.
#743SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 s4dfish
Quick note for the OP. On the Self-Buffs section, might want to add [Scroll of Agility V] and [Scroll of Strength V] as they stack with all other buffs (to my knowledge). I can generally find them on the AH for 2-3g a piece.
#744SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Dontmindme
Originally Posted by Shaker View Post
Hence the 20 energy (free rupture (0 energy) + 20% chance for free SnD (25 * .8 = 20) for "finishers".

Also, given that Ruthlessness only has a 60% chance to proc, saying that you're able to maintain the cycle only if you get a Ruth proc means that you're not really able to maintain the cycle. Just sayin'. :P
Hmm...I might need to look at that, as somehow the spreadsheet recommended that cycle. Clearly I must be maintaining it suffering a slow energy bleed and refreshing energy on movement. Most fights seem to require one to either reposition or dodge AOEs, so that might account for it. Having been a dagger rogue running 1s/3r, I'm pretty used to adjusting cycles on the fly, looking at the timing and cutting to a 4-pt Rupture when necessary to maintain 100% SnD uptime even with Hemo with 2pc-T4.

Granted, I can't think of very many fights where I'm allowed to just stand there for any extended period of time, so that must be how it's been working for me. At a certain point you just play. You pick how many points you are dropping for SnD and adjust accordingly by dropping Rupture with as many points as you have in order to not drop SnD. Maybe the problem is the current lack of modeling for 1s/3r and 1s/4r cycles. Something I want to add to the DPS sheet at some point.
#745SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Shaker
I believe we looked into cut rupture cycles for Hemo builds already and that the general consensus was to push up to a 4s/5r or 5s/5r, as you weren't really getting a ton more damage with the 1s/3r or 1s/4r cycles. That is, of course, very counter-intuitive to a build with a built in bonus to rupture, but them's how the numbers lay.
#746SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Dontmindme
But then you get to situations where you are forced to move. For example, if you are forced to move in and out say 5 secs every minute. That's 50 energy extra one could have bleed the last minute of cycle time and still break even. With the example above, you are losing 14 energy roughly every 17.4 secs or bleeding from max 48.276 energy. With the recouped energy where you have been forced to move (or ground slammed or knocked back or whatever), you can actually sustain a lower cycle. High King and whirlwinds, Gruul and Ground Slams, VR and poundings (we started with the dps backing out method), Hydross and the water bubbles, Tidewalker and Water Tombs, Lurker and Geysers all give too many opportunities to refresh energy.

It also seems counterintuitive with the 2pc-T4 bonus which benefits more from shorter cycles given that it adds more overall SnD time, the shorter your cycles. What's funny is with a minor gear switch I did notice the recommended cycle had changed all the way back up to 3s/5r which seemed a big jump for what seemed a minor 12 dps gear upgrade. Either that or one of the fixes in the sheet corrected part of the problem.

I hadn't considered the napkin math, but you are correct that 1s/5r Hemo recommendations don't seem to make a whole lot of sense. Looks like I need to figure out what is happening in the cycle sheets when that is occurring.
#747SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
hannigaholic
Originally Posted by Shaker View Post
I believe we looked into cut rupture cycles for Hemo builds already and that the general consensus was to push up to a 4s/5r or 5s/5r, as you weren't really getting a ton more damage with the 1s/3r or 1s/4r cycles. That is, of course, very counter-intuitive to a build with a built in bonus to rupture, but them's how the numbers lay.
--heavy edit--

I'd say that the reason 1s/3r and 1s/4r don't perform as well as might initially be thought is because of the AP scaling of Rupture based on the number of combo points you're using. As Aldriana says in the post below you only gain 4/10/18/21/24% of AP at 1/2/3/4/5 combo points.

I do have a question though - do they actally peform better than xs/5r cycles? If so then why aren't we simply suggesting that they be used instead? Shaker's post seems to say "1s/xr cycles do perform better than xs/5r cycles but not by a lot so we'll suggest using the lower dps cycles for some reason". I would have thought that if a shorter cycle is just as stable and does more damage, even if it's only 1 dps, then it must be better to use it, particularly on fights where you may not have 100% time on your target (Gruul, Hydross, Leo, Vashj, Solarian...)

With regard to 1s/5r Hemo cycles, my personal experience (and I apologise that it's nothing more than that but it may help to explain things) is that they become sustainable for quite a while after a few lucky Ruthlessness procs. You tend then to be sitting at slightly higher base energy levels so when you don't get the proc there is a reserve for you to dip into and sustain the cycle. Of course, the moment you get a bad streak of Ruthlessness not proccing then your cycle falls apart again.

2s/5r, 3s/5r or the 1s/xr cycles are far more stable for Hemo trispec builds.

Last edited by hannigaholic : 12/20/07 at 7:26 PM.
#748SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Aldriana
AP bonus of Rupture is 4/10/18/21/24%, because it's 4/5/6/7/8 ticks, each of which gives 1/2/3/3/3% of your AP. This is why it can make sense to do Ruptures down to 3 points (as you're mostly losing uptime and not damage), but it doesn't make sense to do 2 and 1 point ruptures in most cases.
#749SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Shaker
Originally Posted by Dontmindme View Post
But then you get to situations where you are forced to move. For example, if you are forced to move in and out say 5 secs every minute. That's 50 energy extra one could have bleed the last minute of cycle time and still break even. With the example above, you are losing 14 energy roughly every 17.4 secs or bleeding from max 48.276 energy. With the recouped energy where you have been forced to move (or ground slammed or knocked back or whatever), you can actually sustain a lower cycle. High King and whirlwinds, Gruul and Ground Slams, VR and poundings (we started with the dps backing out method), Hydross and the water bubbles, Tidewalker and Water Tombs, Lurker and Geysers all give too many opportunities to refresh energy.

It also seems counterintuitive with the 2pc-T4 bonus which benefits more from shorter cycles given that it adds more overall SnD time, the shorter your cycles. What's funny is with a minor gear switch I did notice the recommended cycle had changed all the way back up to 3s/5r which seemed a big jump for what seemed a minor 12 dps gear upgrade. Either that or one of the fixes in the sheet corrected part of the problem.

I hadn't considered the napkin math, but you are correct that 1s/5r Hemo recommendations don't seem to make a whole lot of sense. Looks like I need to figure out what is happening in the cycle sheets when that is occurring.
Don't forget that 5 seconds of moving is COMPLETELY able to be absorbed by any cycle, especially if you know that it's coming early - that's 50 energy (well, 40 or 60), and you can always get below 40 energy such that energy is not wasted.
#750SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Dontmindme
Yes, I completely agree and that was also my point. One way to absorb it is by running a tighter cycle. If you are running a cycle that bleeds 14 energy every 17.4 secs, you bleed a little over 48 energy a minute. If combat factors take you out of action for a 5 sec period once a minute, you have essentially recouped that energy. This is of course assuming you pop your rupture right before the disruption.

Anyway, we are somewhat off-topic. Although this discussion has given me a thought. It probably wouldn't be too hard to model such disruptions. Check boxes could be added that quantified the disruption in seconds per minute. You'd add 10 energy every second of the disruption and multiply total dps by 1-[disruption]/60 and have a reasonable DPS estimate of any fight with fixed disruptions. The sheet itself would really auto-calculate your new preferred cycle. It's an interesting concept. Now, I'll probably hold off on this for a bit. It would need a separate page marked "Advanced" and maybe instructions on how to model it.

But let's take Gruul for example. Ground Slams are predictable (happen in X amount of time). One could go into one's own combat logs, look for their last auto-attack prior to the slam, find the time to the next attack after. Take a number of samples, derive an average downtime. Check the combat log for the frequency of the Ground Slam. (Downtime)/(Ground Slam frequency) = disruption. Although this might be a bad example given that the Ground Slam/Shatter might have a duration greater than one can absorb. The same concept could be applied to fights where one runs from AOEs. Check the combat log, out of combat 3 secs every 30 seconds, enter 6 secs in the disruption box and enable it, presto, fairly accurate broken fight modeling.
#751SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Aldriana
I actually thought about doing such a thing, but such a model requires a little sophistication beyond what's stated.

First, instead of tracking a straight disruption fraction, you need to explicitly track "n seconds of interruption every m seconds", as you don't actually start losing yellow damage the instant you are disrupted, while you do start losing white damage. For instance, if you experience a 2 second interruption every 10 seconds, you never lose any yellow damage; but if you experience a 10 second interruption every 50 seconds, your energy caps out at you do lose some yellow damage. Hence, while same have the same loss of white damage, the second will additionally lose yellow damage.

Second, you need to think about how this effects abilities with cooldowns, hidden or otherwise; As long as the interruption is (mostly) predictable and doesn't occur more than once every 20 seconds, you don't lose any Blade Flurry or Adrenaline Rush damage from it. Procs with internal cooldowns are a little trickier (since they do cool during interruptions, but you also risk losing uptime to the disruption). So you need to think a little bit about modeling that.

Additionally, since your ratio of white to yellow damage is changing, your cycle may change as well; hence, this needs to be factored in as well. It's actually this last point that's prevented me from adding such a feature to the Rogue Gear sheet; cycle computation becomes an absolute mess. If I ever get around to the programming-language implementation of this, I might put such a thing in; but in a spreadsheet I found it too messy to model with any accuracy.
#752SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Latito
I still think that there is an inherent problem with attempting to model distruptions. DMM mentioned it - "This is of course assuming you pop your rupture right before the disruption.". An assumption I for one do not think is valid.

You can't time your cycles to running out on Rage. You can't time your cycles to Morogrims WG's. You can't time a cycle to Mag's "shake-you-around". Your cycle is a certain length.. altering it to attempt to match a distruption on a fight-by-fight basis.. meh. In reality you just have to dps away, keep energy low (grr.. clashes with my mental 'burst with BT exalted trinket' thoughts) and be happy that at least you're regen'ing energy while away from the boss, unlike your warrior friends. Lets not forget - you are still AWAY FROM THE BOSS. Time on target is huge. With ~65% of your damage from auto attacks.. you still lose.

I suppose the only real scenerio you could do this for is perhaps Prince and Najentus. Prince you generally get spurts of ~17 seconds dps - perfect for a 1s/5r. Alternatively, I find 4-5s/5r works nicely (run in w/ 4+ points.. SnD as I run in and build to 5, rupture and get hopefully another 4+). Najentus.. you can just time finishers a bit and play with your cycle (if theres 17 seconds left before bubble and you have 2 cp.. SnD, don't go for another SS before you do a standard 3-point SnD. Add in the 2-3 seconds to get that SS and SnD off and you have just done a 21-second SnD with 15 seconds left before bubble.. when you could of dropped a 17-second SnD with 17 seconds left. Then you can argue over how the next "phase" starts...

Really, its just a matter of being a smart person and adapting to the scenerio. Like Ald said.. 93% of your dps from just being on target and doing 5s.
#753SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Dontmindme
Okay, so it's slightly more complicated than that, but it might be a nice future feature. It's not very high at all on my list (and thus may never happen), but I still think it would give a decent approximation for some fights. Like you said, you adjust to the circumstances. Given that most cycles give pretty similar DPS anyway, if one assumes that a good rogue is going to make smart choices with their adjustments (and thus achieve similar cycle DPS to their main cycle up to and immediately following a disruption), it still might work.

Of course the other way of dealing with it could just be a checkbox that's % DPS expected. If solid rogues are only realizing 80% of theoretical DPS because of the disruptions of a given fight, you could enter 80% and get an approximation without pulling out a calculator and dividing it yourself. I guess that could be the low-tech uncomplicated method of modeling it.
#754SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Himmel
Very interesting, I think adopting cycle to boss is more being a good player than good rogue.

I also interested in mechanics how latency and fps disrupting normal cycles
#755SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Musa
Is Distract influenced by hit rating?
Currently distracting some bosses arrival with my fellow rogues in mount Hyjal. I am curious what mechanics are behind the bosses resistance to distract.
#756SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Grunge
Originally Posted by Himmel View Post
Very interesting, I think adopting cycle to boss is more being a good player than good rogue.

I also interested in mechanics how latency and fps disrupting normal cycles
If I have over 300-400ms I often find that my dps suffers (compared to previous encounters with that boss). FPS is less of a issue (unless you're playing sub-15'ish)

Originally Posted by Musa View Post
Is Distract influenced by hit rating?
Currently distracting some bosses arrival with my fellow rogues in mount Hyjal. I am curious what mechanics are behind the bosses resistance to distract.
I'd guestimate that it might be influenced by Spell Hit (due to resist from bosses).


Edit: On a different note, we've lost all our ferals, and have been raiding without mangle. I know that this has been gone over a hundred times, but does anyone have a comprehensive list/spreadsheet table with the cutoff points?

For ordinary combat I guess it's not much of a question, but since my average crit has been coming up to 45%+ recently (coupled with 3k+ ap). I remember there were some examples in one of the rogue spreadsheet threads, but I'm not really looking forward to digging through them. (If I remember correctly it assumed 3000ap as well, but only 30 or 35% crit.)

Last edited by Grunge : 12/22/07 at 5:55 PM.
#757SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Belakor
So recently, my guild and I killed Azgalor, and after the reset, as we were clearing through BT, the Syphon of the Nathrezim dropped. Being a mace rogue, I naturally bid and won, but was still unsure of how much of an upgrade this was from my current Dragonstrike. After doing testing on Archimonde, I've found that I usually do better with the Dragonstrike, but as my hit rating went up, my DPS went down, which brings me to my next point. I was doing some thinking, and wondering if there was a point of inflection in crit's favor over hit for Mace spec. So in general, which do you guys think would do me better for a weapon, and if you know, what would happen to be the more specific combat mechanics, like the roll system, and if there is, at which point crit becomes better than hit for a Mace rogue?
#758SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Ticia
Originally Posted by Belakor View Post
but as my hit rating went up, my DPS went down

What do you mean by this? If you're adding straight hit rating and keeping everything else constant, there's absolutely no way your DPS is going down. So by that I have to assume you are sacrificing some other stats to get hit. In order to evaluate what's happening and address your theory about a point of inflection (which gut instinct I would say won't happen until the hit cap), you have to mention what kind of stats you're losing for every point of hit that's causing your dps to go down. For instance, if you're giving up 100 AP to get 5 hit, yeah your dps is going to go down, because that's a terrible trade.
#759SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Belakor
My stats stayed fairly the same...maybe a small loss of AP, and crit...more a pure crit for hit trade though, statwise. The numbers exactly are: 1st Set:1867 or 1795 Ap, 250 hit, 26.49 or 25.04% crit (Depending on Hourglass of the Unraveller, or Bloodlust Brooch) and 12 expertise; and the 2nd set is: 1885 or 1813 AP, 222 hit, 28.52 or 27.07% crit (Again depending on HotU or BB), and 12 expertise. This is all while keeping the T4 2/5 bonus. And of course, my hit could've gone alot higher, but it would've been a gimp as you've stated.

EDIT: Forgot to mention both of those statistics are assuming Syphon, not Dragonstrike.
#760SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Arindelest
Originally Posted by Belakor View Post
My stats stayed fairly the same...maybe a small loss of AP, and crit...more a pure crit for hit trade though, statwise. The numbers exactly are: 1st Set:1867 or 1795 Ap, 250 hit, 26.49 or 25.04% crit (Depending on Hourglass of the Unraveller, or Bloodlust Brooch) and 12 expertise; and the 2nd set is: 1885 or 1813 AP, 222 hit, 28.52 or 27.07% crit (Again depending on HotU or BB), and 12 expertise. This is all while keeping the T4 2/5 bonus. And of course, my hit could've gone alot higher, but it would've been a gimp as you've stated.

EDIT: Forgot to mention both of those statistics are assuming Syphon, not Dragonstrike.
You're not going to be able to draw any real conclusions with such a small sample size as Archimonde, or even to be able to conclusively say anything based, for example, on two entire weeks of raiding assuming it's relatively close.

We have some great resources here and I really wish more people would use them. If you had read the first post you would've been able to use the APEP values to approximate how much DPS you're getting/losing with the different stats, and it of course takes into account Mace Spec.

Furthermore, we have two great spreadsheets which you can plug your gear into and see what's an upgrade and what's not.

Finally my gut feeling is the Dragonstrike is going to be better than the Syphon. Of course you'd have to use the spreadsheet to figure that out.
#761SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Belakor
I've read the first post numerous times...but my question was more aimed at delving deeper into the actual combat mechanics: does the server calculate hit and crit at the same time, or hit then crit? I've used the spreadsheet from a post in this forum, and found that alot of the time, it's just what it says it is: theoretical DPS. As for the Dragonstrike v Syphon, I've noticed a very slight DPS using the Dragonstrike on Archimonde, but as has been stated before...terrible test environment.
#762SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Latito
Originally Posted by Belakor View Post
I've read the first post numerous times...but my question was more aimed at delving deeper into the actual combat mechanics: does the server calculate hit and crit at the same time, or hit then crit? I've used the spreadsheet from a post in this forum, and found that alot of the time, it's just what it says it is: theoretical DPS. As for the Dragonstrike v Syphon, I've noticed a very slight DPS using the Dragonstrike on Archimonde, but as has been stated before...terrible test environment.
Re: "How the server calculates stuff" - Attack table - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft

Re: "Archimonde fight shows this is better!" - Between Airburst and Fear.. this is probably one of the worst fights to judge damage on. At least Akama is always the same length of time you spend attacking him (within a few sec).

Between your two sets of gear, net difference is:
+18 AP
-28 Hit
+2.03% crit (~45 crit rating)

So um.. yea, 45 crit rating and 18 AP is definately better than 28 hit. Hell, the 2% crit > 2% hit regardless of the AP (and you get slightly more than 2% crit, slightly less than 2% hit).

Either way - if you're on Archimonde.. you'll likely be upgrading your T4-2pc and Hourglass/Brooch soon.




In a more general sense, the difference between hit and crit is a bit.. strange for rogues. Crit has the noted advantage of applying to both autoattacks and specials. For specials it generally means 2.3x as much dmg (Lethality).. possiblt an extra 3% more for RED meta. However, more crits mean less hits, as described in the Attack Table linked above. This means no extra landed attacks. Hit on the other hand converts a miss to a hit. This means a smaller "per-attack" dmg increase (going from 0 to 100 dmg for a hit, 100 to 203 for a crit autoattack, 100 to 236 for a special), but you have more landed attacks. This means more chances to proc: Mongoose, Combat Potency, Sword Spec, Windfury (proc'ing an extra attack), Windfury attack (the actual extra attack, which can miss), Dragonspine, etc. Now.. as a mace rogue, you don't have sword spec.. but the rest should still apply.

In terms of "point of inflection".. its actually the reverse of what you may think. Hit scales with it self in a positive way. The more hit you have, the better it is to get more hit. This is largely due to WF. The more hit you have, the more likely you will proc WF attacks.. and thus want even more hit.

Lets look at a standard attack table for roughly your gear: (played with the numbers a bit to make things easier)
5% miss
3.25% dodge
25% glance
26.75% crit
40% hit
This works out to: (for maces)
(5 * 0) + (3.25 * 0) + (25 * 0.75) + (26.75 * 2.05) + (40 * 1) = 113.6
Adding 1% hit or 1% crit both increase your total dmg nearly the same.. slightly more for crit due to the modifiers but nothing significant. Adding 1% crit turns a hit into a crit.. so you turn a 1.00 into a 2.05. Adding 1% hit turns a 0 into a 1.00.

Say you had some really crit-heavy gear.. (note.. this is not *too* far off from my gear)
5% miss
4% dodge
25% glance
50% crit
16% hit

(5 * 0) + (4 * 0) + (25 * 0.75) + (50 * 2.05) + (16 * 1) = 137.25
Adding 1% crit moves you to 138.3. This is a 0.76% increase in damage. Adding hit will increase your damage similarily. The added bonus of hit, is that you gain more procs too.


When talking about sword spec and WF..
Say you had:
15% miss
6% dodge
25% glance
40% crit
14% hit
You only are landing 79% of your attacks. This means 79% of your attacks have a chance to proc WF/SS.. which in turn has only a 79% chance of landing itself. This results in a 0.79 ^ 2 chance (times the 5 or 20% for WF/SS to proc).. roughly a 62% chance of landing a WF or SS attack.

If you increase your hit and expertise a bit:
2% miss
3% dodge
25% glance
70% crit + hit
You end up with 95% of your attacks landing (16% higher than the above example). This turns into 0.95 ^ 2 landed WF/SS attacks.. or a 90% chance to land WF/SS. Thats 28% better than before, with an increase of only 16% chance to land the attack.

Hit scales very nicely with WF/SS.. just always adds the same damage increase point after point. Going from 1% to 2% crit nets you the same raw damage increase as going from 50 to 51%. This is a similar effect to AP, which does not scale with itself at all.



All this math an theorycraft aside - you can pretty much just trust the spreadsheet :P. In your gear tradeoff.. you got a lot more crit for a small hit loss. Use the APEP numbers provided to figure out what is an "acceptable" tradeoff in terms of hit vs crit. In general, 1 crit RATING < 1 hit RATING. However, 1% hit < 1% crit. You tried to compare less than 2% hit to more than 2% crit.. and added in some AP to the crit side.
#763SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Belakor
Thank you very much for the more in depth explanation...as you pointed out I can now see that it was also not an even comparison. Off on a bit of a tangent...is it just me or has anyone else had horrible luck with trinket drops? =P. Took me almost half a year to get a Dragonspine.
#764SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Aldriana
Originally Posted by Belakor View Post
Thank you very much for the more in depth explanation...as you pointed out I can now see that it was also not an even comparison. Off on a bit of a tangent...is it just me or has anyone else had horrible luck with trinket drops? =P. Took me almost half a year to get a Dragonspine.
I think you were just unlucky; the nature of probability is that some people (such as myself) get Dragonspine on their first Gruul kill, while some people (such as you) don't see one for months at a time. It's frustrating when you wind up on the unlucky side of the table, but it's not any fundamental game mechanic; it's just pure bad luck, plain and simple.
#765SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Feist-Mok
Originally Posted by Belakor View Post
My stats stayed fairly the same...maybe a small loss of AP, and crit...more a pure crit for hit trade though, statwise. The numbers exactly are: 1st Set:1867 or 1795 Ap, 250 hit, 26.49 or 25.04% crit (Depending on Hourglass of the Unraveller, or Bloodlust Brooch) and 12 expertise; and the 2nd set is: 1885 or 1813 AP, 222 hit, 28.52 or 27.07% crit (Again depending on HotU or BB), and 12 expertise. This is all while keeping the T4 2/5 bonus. And of course, my hit could've gone alot higher, but it would've been a gimp as you've stated.

EDIT: Forgot to mention both of those statistics are assuming Syphon, not Dragonstrike.
Beyond that though, it seems as though you've traded 18 AP and ~2 % crit (lets call it 44 crit rating because it's close enough), for 28 hit rating.

Using the EP values from post 1 for swords (which will bias hit to be even better than it is for you), we can see that you traded 95 EP in AP and Crit for 61.88 in hit.

Hit is a good stat, and better point for point than anything else - but other stats are still worth something too, and trading away too much crit or AP or DPS or Stam (Glass cannons die. Dying sucks.) for hit is a bad deal.
#766SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Shanksta
Combat potency

Can you guys help me out with how many combat potency procs I would get with the amount of hit rating I have (in general numbers maybe in inter voles of 10 or so). I would also like to know about some better rotations based on Combat potency procs. Thanks for your time.
#767SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Balkoth
I'd suggest going to the Gear Spreadsheet, adjust the talents on the right hand side, and then enter in your offhand weapon. The cycle it describes is a maintainable cycle based upon the expected Combat Potency and Relentless Strikes procs.
#768SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Lukon
Originally Posted by Grunge View Post
Edit: On a different note, we've lost all our ferals, and have been raiding without mangle. I know that this has been gone over a hundred times, but does anyone have a comprehensive list/spreadsheet table with the cutoff points?

For ordinary combat I guess it's not much of a question, but since my average crit has been coming up to 45%+ recently (coupled with 3k+ ap). I remember there were some examples in one of the rogue spreadsheet threads, but I'm not really looking forward to digging through them. (If I remember correctly it assumed 3000ap as well, but only 30 or 35% crit.)
I'm at a similar level of gear at the moment. Even with a heap of crit and armor ignored, rupture is still a fair bit better. Without mangle my calculations have eviscerate and rupture doing almost the same amount of damage, 1850. But the extra 10 energy from rupture is worth around 600 damage.
#769SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Vestalina
This may be a little bit off-topic and sorry if this was mentioned before somewhere but...

With the 15% nerf and the 10% increased Hemo damage in Sinister Calling, that leaves a 5% nerf in Hemo damage (if one decides to spec that deep into Subtlety).

Does Hemo at 120% damage still scale better then Sinister Strike? With the increased debuff taken into account, is this really that big of a nerf for Hemo if one were to spec Shadowstep Non-Dagger?

Thanks.
#770SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Aldriana
Searching around the last few pages of the recently-locked Hemo thread would give you the answer to this question, which is, roughly speaking:

Speccing that deep into subtlety costs you a lot of really good combat and/or assassination talents, and pretty clearly results in a build that does a fair amount less damage than traditional combat. It does have a few utility and survival talents that are potentially helpful in raids, but most people (myself included) feel that they're not worth losing so much DPS to get.

On the other hand, Tri-Spec Hemo is still a reasonably solid build for raiding; if most Hemo charges are used, it will do comparable or slightly superior damage to combat. Typically, it's a little stronger than combat at T4 levels of itemization, but falls behind as you move into T6. For exact details, I would recommend consulting a spreadsheet to see which works better for you.
#771SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Latito
DPS Simulator

Just a heads up for anyone out there who has some technical skills and ambition.. I'm currently in the process of writing a DPS Simulator. This started as an "I'm bored" project and I've been putting more and more time into it as the work is quite enjoyable.

Key information:
-Written in Java. Its one of the 3 programming languages I know best, its one of the most well-known languages, platform independant, etc.
-Based on entering the Gear/Buffs you have, not your stats (something I feel is a flaw with DPS Sims for other classes).
-Quite generic in that I could add functionality to say.. model Warrior DPS.. just by adding in their attacks and warrior-unique items. All of the Gear/Buffs/etc would just be reused.
-I'm writing it with the ability to log just as the WoW combat logger works. You could upload your DPS Sim to WWS, cutting a lot of the "report" type functionality out of this app.
-I'm currently working on the back end logic, I do no have any GUI at all. Ideally I would be looking for someone to help write a GUI. This would either be a web interface or treating this like a standalone application that can be downloaded and used.

At this point I have a working framework which handles adding gear and talents to a player and handling "Events" which reside on a queue. Essentially, I can auto-attack with most talents working. The next main sections I'll be doing are adding all the proc-type stuff from various items (mostly trinkets) and a yellow-dps AI.

If you have the skills and would be interested in helping, please PM me and we can go from there. I'm mainly looking for GUI help, that is certainly my weaker area.

If you are unable to help and just eager to use it - No ETA.
#772SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Teip
20 to hit Food

I was wondering if anyone has tried the new +20 to hit food vs the +20 agility food? I am far from hit cap and will be trying it out tonight in KZ.

Overall +20 hit would be worth more than 20 agility since I am far from cap right? (248 to rating + 5/5 Precision Talent)

This is my first post.
#773SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Dontmindme
Generally speaking, yes, Hit rating is better than Agility at a certain gear level, but if you want a more exact answer for your gear and talents, I suggest inputting them into one or both of the two running Rogue spreadsheets. Links are in the first post of this thread I believe.
#774SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Hurtfulpotato
Originally Posted by Teip View Post
I was wondering if anyone has tried the new +20 to hit food vs the +20 agility food? I am far from hit cap and will be trying it out tonight in KZ.

Overall +20 hit would be worth more than 20 agility since I am far from cap right? (248 to rating + 5/5 Precision Talent)

This is my first post.
As Dontmindme said, the spreadsheets are the place to look for maximizing DPS, but allow me to put in a practical concern:

Talbuk meat is far easier to farm than warped flesh and dovetails nicely with getting the thick clefthoof leather for drums of battle.
#775SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Evy
Originally Posted by Teip View Post
Overall +20 hit would be worth more than 20 agility since I am far from cap right? (248 to rating + 5/5 Precision Talent)
I'm pretty sure that if you are a Combat Sword/Fist or Combat Hemo spec, then 20 hit will be the better option. If you're CDaggers then 20 agility will edge it out slightly.

But yea, as the poster above said, you'd probably be best off checking with one of the spreadsheets.
#776SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Vulajin
Originally Posted by Teip View Post
I was wondering if anyone has tried the new +20 to hit food vs the +20 agility food? I am far from hit cap and will be trying it out tonight in KZ.

Overall +20 hit would be worth more than 20 agility since I am far from cap right? (248 to rating + 5/5 Precision Talent)

This is my first post.
On self-buffs: [Flask of Relentless Assault] is the best DPS option for your elixir slots; however, [Elixir of Major Agility] is very close behind. In general, choose the flask for progression and the elixir for farm content. Your best food option is [Spicy Hot Talbuk] if you're combat or Hemo+swords, [Warp Burger] otherwise. [Haste Potion] are extremely powerful if used on cooldown, but save your potion timer if you know you'll be taking a lot of damage. If you're a leatherworker, [Drums of Battle] > [Drums of War].
Appropriate section of the first post quoted, with the relevant sentence bolded.
#777SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Birgitte
A few questions on glancing blows:

1. Can sword spec proc off of a glancing blow?
2. Can poisons proc off of a glancing blow?
#778SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Mideci
Yes and yes, as far as I know. You might want to update the guild and server tags, however.
#779SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Himmel
Excuse me, didn't found an answer on the forum yet so I have to ask here:

Most classic combat swords rogues (including me) have 3 points in Vile Poisons, I know that Vile Poisons win in DPS modelling. As I understand dps modelling based on totally static fights.

But what about Improved Poisons and bosses wich require high mobility from rogue and time rogue actually damaging is quite low? (and there's not much bosses where rogue can peacefully stand and repeat the cycles)
#780SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Ozzmar
Originally Posted by Himmel View Post
Excuse me, didn't found an answer on the forum yet so I have to ask here:

Most classic combat swords rogues (including me) have 3 points in Vile Poisons, I know that Vile Poisons win in DPS modelling. As I understand dps modelling based on totally static fights.

But what about Improved Poisons and bosses wich require high mobility from rogue and time rogue actually damaging is quite low? (and there's not much bosses where rogue can peacefully stand and repeat the cycles)
Because you're asking about an un-modelable (or, at least, unspecified) amount of running around, all you really have to work with is the individual DPS value of the talents you're asking about. If you want to get really detailed, you could easily figure out the amount of damage (on average) per swing that each of those talent choices would make, but I strongly doubt that 3/5 Improved Poisons in those runaround fights is going to get you more mileage than 3/5 Vile would overall for any type of fight.

But, because you asked, I'll at least try...

I'm not a math whiz by any means, but I'll take a shot at showing the damage added to a single swing on average (because you're asking about brief DPS time).

Deadly Poison VII
30% proc rate
180 Damage over 12 up to 5 stacks

With no talents, DP would add about
180 * .3 = 54 damage per swing

3/5 Vile would put the damage at 201.6 over 12.
3/5 Improved would give DP a 36% proc rate.

So, you can basically say with that one swing you have a 30% chance to do 201.6 damage, or 36% chance to do 180 damage.

201.6 * .3 = approximately 60.48 damage added on a swing (12% increase, obviously)
180 * .36 = approximately 64.8 damage added to a swing (20%)

Improved would come out ahead in the little static world I've created where you swing once, but in reality, you would need to model a fight involving several procs to really see where Vile will overtake Improved. I'll leave that to the experts.
#781SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Shaker
The other thing is - if you're actually being careful about watching a Deadly stack, you can always Shiv upon coming back in and save the stack - I am reasonably sure that it's a net increase in DPS to shiv a dropping deadly stack than let it fall (in order to use SS). Of course, I personally don't really monitor my deadly stack that closely. :P
#782SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Milano
Originally Posted by Shaker View Post
The other thing is - if you're actually being careful about watching a Deadly stack, you can always Shiv upon coming back in and save the stack - I am reasonably sure that it's a net increase in DPS to shiv a dropping deadly stack than let it fall (in order to use SS). Of course, I personally don't really monitor my deadly stack that closely. :P
Cutup from wowace.com got a own bar for monitoring poison stacks/duration
#783SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Vulajin
Originally Posted by Shaker View Post
The other thing is - if you're actually being careful about watching a Deadly stack, you can always Shiv upon coming back in and save the stack - I am reasonably sure that it's a net increase in DPS to shiv a dropping deadly stack than let it fall (in order to use SS). Of course, I personally don't really monitor my deadly stack that closely. :P
I did a little napkin math on this earlier in the thread and my conclusion was that although it's probably a very slight increase to do it, the reward is hardly commensurate with the effort. I'm talking a fractional DPS increase at best.
#784SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Shaker
Originally Posted by Milano View Post
Cutup from wowace.com got a own bar for monitoring poison stacks/duration
This brings up a good point - I don't think we really have a good raiding mods (rogue-specific) section on this thread ...

Would anyone care to bring up a few?
#785SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0sildani
I read through the thread and didn't find something on this, thought I'd bring it up:

What should one consider when comparing an OH dagger versus an OH sword for a Combat Swords raiding spec? In other words, at what Speed/DPS does an OH dagger's increased chance at CP procs overcome the Sword Spec procs of an OH sword?

The context is that I have the Arena Season 2 OH dagger and I'm trying to decide if the Arena Season 1 OH sword would be a better choice for a sword spec, despite the DPS and speed differences.

(Edited to clarify my point by adding CP detail.)
#786SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0sildani
Originally Posted by sildani View Post
I read through the thread and didn't find something on this, thought I'd bring it up:

What should one consider when comparing an OH dagger versus an OH sword for a Combat Swords raiding spec? In other words, at what Speed/DPS does an OH dagger's increased chance at CP procs overcome the Sword Spec procs of an OH sword?

The context is that I have the Arena Season 2 OH dagger and I'm trying to decide if the Arena Season 1 OH sword would be a better choice for a sword spec, despite the DPS and speed differences.

(Edited to clarify my point by adding CP detail.)
Geez I feel sheepish. After re-reading the initial post I found this note:

"For Hemo/sword rogues, each 0.1 increment of speed can be equated to roughly 5 extra weapon DPS in favor of the faster weapon. For rogues without sword spec, you can convert each 0.1 increment to 2 extra weapon DPS for the faster weapon."

That explains what I needed to know... sorry for not reading more carefully before posting.
#787SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0sildani
Originally Posted by sildani View Post
Geez I feel sheepish. After re-reading the initial post I found this note:

"For Hemo/sword rogues, each 0.1 increment of speed can be equated to roughly 5 extra weapon DPS in favor of the faster weapon. For rogues without sword spec, you can convert each 0.1 increment to 2 extra weapon DPS for the faster weapon."

That explains what I needed to know... sorry for not reading more carefully before posting.
Alrighty, not to beat on this topic yet again, but I guess I actually don't know what I would like to know. I've drawn up this chart:

              S1 OH Sw  S2 OH Dg
Base DPS          91.0      97.5
Speed              1.5       1.4
CP Bonus DPS         0        10
SS Bonus DPS        ??         0
I guess what I couldn't deduce from the post, after careful re-reading, is what the value of the Sword Spec was when comparing a Sword to another weapon type for the OH slot. (Hence, the ?? up in my chart.)

Any input would be greatly appreciated.
#788SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Feist-Mok
Originally Posted by Shaker View Post
This brings up a good point - I don't think we really have a good raiding mods (rogue-specific) section on this thread ...

Would anyone care to bring up a few?


The ones I rely on are Cutup - specifically it's julianne module - for slice and dice timing, Classtimer for sap/stun/rupture/poison watching, Pitbull's spark module for incoming energy ticks, and Quartz for big enemy casting bars to interrupt.

+ the obvious threatmeter type stuff.

edit: in the vein of this thread, I'd also suggest Pawn since it's easy to plug in the EP values from threadstart for easy gear assessment on the fly.
#789SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Oscarvil
Originally Posted by Shaker View Post
This brings up a good point - I don't think we really have a good raiding mods (rogue-specific) section on this thread ...

Would anyone care to bring up a few?
I actually made a post about this in this thread, post number 483, nobody seemed particularly interested at the time but I still think it would be a good section to have.
#790SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Vulajin
Originally Posted by sildani View Post
I read through the thread and didn't find something on this, thought I'd bring it up:

What should one consider when comparing an OH dagger versus an OH sword for a Combat Swords raiding spec? In other words, at what Speed/DPS does an OH dagger's increased chance at CP procs overcome the Sword Spec procs of an OH sword?

The context is that I have the Arena Season 2 OH dagger and I'm trying to decide if the Arena Season 1 OH sword would be a better choice for a sword spec, despite the DPS and speed differences.

(Edited to clarify my point by adding CP detail.)
If you are sword specced, there is no point at which it is worthwhile to use a dagger instead of a sword in your offhand. Suitably fast offhand swords are available ([Latro's Shifting Sword], [Gladiator's Quickblade] and its variants), and while they give up very slight increments of speed compared to daggers, an offhand sword grants you offhand sword spec procs, which account for a significant portion of your sword spec bonus damage.

Beyond my advice, you should check a spreadsheet, as this question will be trivially addressed by any of the available ones.
#791SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0trif
I've searched already, not seen any sign of a post reguarding Blade Twisting, so i was thinking, yea, its not as good as crippling poison, but if it can't be dispelled by BoF/shapeshifting like Daze from a mob can't it could have its uses, has any testing been done in this area?
#792SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Aldriana
Well, snares such as crippling poison are primarily useful in PvP; in PvE, and in particular for raiding, very few things need to be snared, so the viability in PvE - which is the focus of this thread - is fairly minimal. In particular, some months ago I ran with 2/2 Blade Twisting and I don't recall ever noticing it proc.

In terms of PvP utility: I can imagine it being somewhat useful, but that would perhaps be a better question for one of the rogue PvP threads.
#793SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Latito
On the topic of Addons.. basically you need to do a few things: (I've listen the mods I use in brackets)
-Watch threat (Omen)
-Watch energy / combo points (EnergyWatch v2)
-Watch SnD time [and other procs/dots to a lesser extent] (ClassTimer)
-Watch enemy cast times (Quartz)

And some more optional stuff:
-Watch our own health (X-Perl)
-Watch boss health and Target of Target (X-Perl)
-Damage Meters (Recount)
-Bar Mod (Bongos2)
-Combat Text Display (Scrolling Combat Text)
-Watch Boss Timers (Big Wigs)
-Watch Buffs (ElkBuffBars)
-Combat Log (AutoCL)
-Watch Equipment Durability (DuabilityFu)
-Cut down on spam (RogueSpam)
-Automate Poison/Flash Powder stuff (Hemlock)

I would definitely recommend Omen, ClassTimer, Quartz (especially for rogues on RoS), BigWigs (DBM works ok too), RogueSpam and Hemlock. The rest you can get by without (default UI works ok), or there are very suitable replacements. A good UI can definately improve your performance in a raid - a simple SnD timer of any sort will go a long way to helping your DPS. The rest of the mods basically help keep you alive and do other helpful things.
#794SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0ekval
Originally Posted by trif View Post
I've searched already, not seen any sign of a post reguarding Blade Twisting, so i was thinking, yea, its not as good as crippling poison, but if it can't be dispelled by BoF/shapeshifting like Daze from a mob can't it could have its uses, has any testing been done in this area?
It procced all the time when I tested it, but it definetly ain't worth of it for PvE. In PvP it is quite good against shapeshifting druids etc. You don't see many people using it since either they don't know it is quite good talent for PvP (or prefer some other filler) or they are AR/Prep and BladeTwisting doesn't affect hemo. For PvE, not worth. For PvP SS builds probably worth if you seem to face alot druids in arenas (2v2).
#795SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Darlal
It should be noted that, if properly formatted, ElkBuffBars will give you all the info from ClassTimers and RogueTimers as well as SnD timers. I have it set up with 8 different buff/debuff categories, yes it's a bit messy, but it also puts each buff exactly where I want it. I'm not sure if it's still around, but natur enemy cast bars is an amazing addon for tracking cooldowns of all types, but also needs a good bit of self formatting.
#796SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
sildani
Originally Posted by Vulajin View Post
If you are sword specced, there is no point at which it is worthwhile to use a dagger instead of a sword in your offhand. Suitably fast offhand swords are available ([Latro's Shifting Sword], [Gladiator's Quickblade] and its variants), and while they give up very slight increments of speed compared to daggers, an offhand sword grants you offhand sword spec procs, which account for a significant portion of your sword spec bonus damage.

Beyond my advice, you should check a spreadsheet, as this question will be trivially addressed by any of the available ones.
Aye. I had never used the Rogue DPS chart before, mostly because it was very intimidating. I had some free time today at work and I decided to give it another whirl, reading carefully and plugging in my values. It's a remarkable tool, even if only theoretical in its output. I immediately saw the difference something as simple as using [Abacus of Violent Odds] instead of [Hourglass of the Unraveller]. The Gem counter aspect also helped me see where I was "wasting gem slots" on colors I didn't need (for example, I had 3 blue gems when my meta gem only needed two, easily adding +8 hit without losing all the other benefits, except for the one gem I replaced of course) and also helped gauge whether or not it would improve my DPS or not.

Of course, I checked out my OH sword vs OH dagger and found the results pretty cool. With Mongoose, Latro's Shifting Sword yielded a slight (~0.50%) DPS advantage over Merciless Gladiator's Shiv w/ Mongoose with a Sword Spec build. Latro's Shifting with +15 or +20 agility enchant yielded less DPS, around 2%.

Thanks for taking the time to point this stuff out. Your initial post is top notch and very educational for me.

Edit: Added DPS chart results that answered my direction question.

Last edited by sildani : 12/28/07 at 3:42 PM.
#797SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Achillion
Ok I know I'm probably gonna get the same reply I got from my mate, that the trinket is worthless, but I need to ask:

Is Badge Of Tenacity worth anything for rogues?

My current trinkets are Abacus of Violent Odds and Bladefist's Breadth.

I read that the trinket is "The best druid tanking trinket" and I know it's an extremely rare drop and I figured I could get a bucketload of money from it, but if it doesn't sell then I was thinking I'd give it a try in a raid than sell it for 50G or shard it for a Large prismatic (which my friend seems to think is worth more than using it).

I know I'll be losing 26 crit rating for useless armor but how would you measure (26 crit rating + 200 AP for 15) Vs (150 Agil for 20) ?
#798SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Feist-Mok
Originally Posted by Achillion View Post
I know I'll be losing 26 crit rating for useless armor but how would you measure (26 crit rating + 200 AP for 15) Vs (150 Agil for 20) ?
divide the stat by the uptime to get a rough estimate of the value of pop on use. 150 agi for 20 seconds, 20 seconds = 1/6th of the 2 minute cooldown, therefore, 150/6=25.

it's a 25 agi trinket.
By contrast, the bladefists is a 25 AP + 26 crit trinket.

so it's 50 EP versus 70 EP for the bladefist.

The bladefist is better, and doesn't entail giving up a large pile of cash you could be earning.

Sell it to a druid.
#799SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Xandos
Originally Posted by Shaker View Post
This brings up a good point - I don't think we really have a good raiding mods (rogue-specific) section on this thread ...

Would anyone care to bring up a few?
I personally love Rogue Power Bars. Bars that monitor abilities and procs when they are active in a configurable/movable frame. Saves you from looking up at your buff bars to see the duration on abilities.

Rogue Power Bars | Curse
#800SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0hannigaholic
Originally Posted by Shaker View Post
This brings up a good point - I don't think we really have a good raiding mods (rogue-specific) section on this thread ...

Would anyone care to bring up a few?
Scrolling Combat Text (SCT) - can display Combo Point gains as splash messages
Natur's EnemyCastBar - timers for SnD, DoTs, Stuns, Trash Respawn Timers and more
Autobar - Includes a poison button that expands to show all poisons with a left-click/right-click MH/OH application

They're pretty much the only rogue-enhancing mods I use but I can't really think that there's anything else I need
#801SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Evy
Originally Posted by Shaker View Post
This brings up a good point - I don't think we really have a good raiding mods (rogue-specific) section on this thread ...

Would anyone care to bring up a few?
The only rogue-specific mod I really use is SliceWatcher (http://files.wowace.com/SliceWatcher...26541.1114.zip)

It has a really clean, intuitive, but very informative format to keep up with your Slice and Dice. As others have mentioned, NECB is great for checking sap, gouge, stun durations as well as DRs.
#802SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Latito
I was going over some old parses and I'm wondering if someone can help me figure out whats going on here. I found a bit of an oddity with my Haste gains. Only haste that I can think of is from Haste Pot and DST. Wasn't DST a 45 sec internal CD? If someone wants the original log I can host it for you.

Wow Web Stats

03:23'26.765	Latito gains Haste <--- Pot
03:23'27.953	Latito gains Haste
03:24'07.312	Latito gains Haste (40 sec)
03:24'28.312	Latito gains Haste (21 sec)
03:24'53.921	Latito gains Haste (25 sec)
03:25'40.437	Latito gains Haste <--- Pot
03:25'56.531	Latito gains Haste (63 sec)
03:26'36.250	Latito gains Haste (40 sec)
or from the original log... (Note I died between the last 2 hastes at 26:05)
12/5 18:23:26.765  You gain Haste.
12/5 18:23:27.953  You gain Haste.
12/5 18:23:37.656  Haste fades from you.
12/5 18:23:41.656  Haste fades from you.
12/5 18:24:07.312  You gain Haste.
12/5 18:24:16.953  Haste fades from you.
12/5 18:24:28.312  You gain Haste.
12/5 18:24:37.843  Haste fades from you.
12/5 18:24:53.921  You gain Haste.
12/5 18:25:03.562  Haste fades from you.
12/5 18:25:40.437  You gain Haste.
12/5 18:25:55.703  Haste fades from you.
12/5 18:25:56.531  You gain Haste.
12/5 18:26:36.250  You gain Haste.
12/5 18:26:45.937  Haste fades from you.

Then also in that same parse, look at this section of attacks
-30% SnD, double mongoose, DST all proc'd, 68 passive haste (belt and ring)
-Using 2.6 spd MH fist, 1.4 spd OH sword
-MH Speed = 2.6 / ( 1.3 * 1.02 * 1.02 * (1 + (393 / 1577))) = 1.54 MH speed
-OH Speed = 1.4 / ( 1.3 * 1.02 * 1.02 * (1 + (393 / 1577))) = 0.83 OH speed
3:24'47.109	Latito gains Lightning Speed
	140	Latito's Melee hits Teron Gorefiend for 307			OH (Auto, Time = 0)
	359	Latito's Melee hits Teron Gorefiend for 592 (glancing)		MH (Auto, Time = 0)
	968	Latito gains 1 extra attack through Sword Specialization
	968	Latito's Melee hits Teron Gorefiend for 294			OH (Auto, 0.828 sec)
3:24'48.281	Latito gains 15 Energy from Combat Potency
	343	Latito gains 1 extra attack through Windfury Attack
	343	Latito's Melee hits Teron Gorefiend for 507 (glancing)		MH (SS proc'd attack)
	656	Latito's Melee hits Teron Gorefiend for 323			OH (Auto, 0.688 sec)
	703	Latito gains Windfury Attack
	703	Latito's Melee hits Teron Gorefiend for 821			MH (WF Attack, proc'd from a SS)
	859	Latito's Melee crits Teron Gorefiend for 1675			MH (Auto, 1.500 sec)
3:24'49.468	Latito's Melee hits Teron Gorefiend for 294			OH (Auto, 0.812 sec)
3:24'50.250	Latito's Melee hits Teron Gorefiend for 467 (glancing)		MH (Auto, 1.392 sec)
	250	Latito's Melee crits Teron Gorefiend for 601			OH (Auto, 0.782 sec)
Am I going mad - or did I proc a WF from a SS attack? As a fist-MH user I can't check for SS off of a WF attack unless I convince a shaman to follow me around so I leave that up to you guys.
#803SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Neshalin
I was under the impression Dragonspine Trophy had a 20 second internal cooldown.
#804SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Aldriana
Yes, Dragonspine is 20 seconds.

Regarding the 2nd part: yes, it does indeed look like you procced a WF attack off a Sword Spec proc - which is odd, since I seem to recall that at some point along the line it was announced or decided that that didn't happen, though I confess I don't remember the exact details. I do know that I used to model WF->SS procs in the spreadsheet, and they're not in it anymore, and I usually don't take stuff out until we have pretty good evidence that it does not occur. But as I don't see any other way of interpreting that combat log, we may have to rethink that.
#805SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
 Shaker
Sword Specialization: This talent’s free extra attacks can no longer trigger additional extra attacks.
2.2 patch notes would be the source.

However, I suppose we could interpret that to mean that sword spec can't proc itself, but I'm fuzzy as to whether that's been the case since vanilla.

Last edited by Shaker : 01/01/08 at 5:46 PM.
#806SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Latito
My bad on Dragonspine.. oops, nvm I guess :P


On the WF/SS proc'ing business, I did a test w/ a Shaman from my guild (thank-you Purdah/Rokabud!). WF attacks can definately proc SS attacks. SS attacks can definately proc WF. Likely already known.. a single auto can proc both a WF and a SS. Over 941 attacks, I got a single instance of 4+ attacks: Auto, WF, SS, WF. I never saw a SS proc an SS, nor a WF proc a WF.

Wow Web Stats
Wow Web Stats


Edit - this was with 2.6 MH and 113 passive haste, no procable anything. 2.426 speed autos

Last edited by Latito : 01/02/08 at 2:13 AM.
#807SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0glowacks
I meant to reply to this a few days ago and just didn't get around to it.


Originally Posted by Himmel View Post
Excuse me, didn't found an answer on the forum yet so I have to ask here:

Most classic combat swords rogues (including me) have 3 points in Vile Poisons, I know that Vile Poisons win in DPS modelling. As I understand dps modelling based on totally static fights.

But what about Improved Poisons and bosses wich require high mobility from rogue and time rogue actually damaging is quite low? (and there's not much bosses where rogue can peacefully stand and repeat the cycles)

In my case I've seen from the spreadsheet that Improved Poisons is a better DPS talent than Vile poisons. Perhaps it is due to low hit rating making Deadly poison fall off, but I added hit rating until I couldn't miss and Vile was still a weaker talent than Improved. This was with a 2.7/1.4 weapon speed and no passive haste.

I added some haste rating, and found that between 200-300 I would start getting Vile as a better talent depending on unbuffed vs. buffed and what buffs were selected. Beyond this haste rating one assumes vile becomes even better. To note, the estimated average stack of DP with Imp Poison at 300 haste rating (with no miss) was around 4.85 whereas is was 4.50 before any modifcations. With Vile, they are 4.58 and 4.00.

Thus the admonition to go with Vile Poisons is likely because DP scales better with hit and haste gear, even if Instant gets the same benefit from both (and higher for Improved) at every gear level. Just as I was typing this out, I realized that the real issue is because the talent tree suggestion assumes the rogue will have Windfury and thus Instant is disregarded. That's a poor assumption for me though: I'm in a 10 man only guild (so far) and normally grouped with an enhancement shaman and hunter who would both prefer GoA and we have no DPS warriors, so I've stuck with Improved. Indeed, switching to Windfury over Instant on the sheet shows Vile to be a better choice then.

As for the suggestion offered, it's too hard to model, and using Shiv if you happen to notice the stack about to go down would likely be better than switching the talent points.
#808SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Balkoth
Originally Posted by glowacks View Post
Thus the admonition to go with Vile Poisons is likely because DP scales better with hit and haste gear
Unless I'm missing the reason behind Deadly Poison, this isn't true. You need one proc every 12 seconds to refresh the stack, and any extra procs are completely wasted. Even if your offhand only hit every 1.5 seconds on average, that's 12 chances to refresh the stack. You have a 0.7^8 chance to NOT refresh the stack every "cycle." That appears to be a 5-6% chance. If you move it to a more reasonable 1.2 seconds that chance to NOT refresh changes to 3%. So one out of every 33 "cycles" will not refresh. Given that a "cycle" is 12 seconds, that translates to having the stack fall off every 6 minutes and 36 seconds on average. In other words, you'd see the stack fall off once per fight.

In contrast, more hit and haste gear translate directly into greater Instant Poison DPS due to the fact that no procs of the poison are wasted.
#809SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0SoAnIs
I have also observed Blinkstrike proccing swordspec/WF, and WF/swordspec proccing Blinkstrike. It's rather common for me to get 4-5+ attacks with WF around, and I've seen as many as 8.
#810SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Loktovar
Originally Posted by Balkoth View Post
Unless I'm missing the reason behind Deadly Poison, this isn't true. You need one proc every 12 seconds to refresh the stack, and any extra procs are completely wasted. Even if your offhand only hit every 1.5 seconds on average, that's 12 chances to refresh the stack. You have a 0.7^8 chance to NOT refresh the stack every "cycle." That appears to be a 5-6% chance. If you move it to a more reasonable 1.2 seconds that chance to NOT refresh changes to 3%. So one out of every 33 "cycles" will not refresh. Given that a "cycle" is 12 seconds, that translates to having the stack fall off every 6 minutes and 36 seconds on average. In other words, you'd see the stack fall off once per fight.

In contrast, more hit and haste gear translate directly into greater Instant Poison DPS due to the fact that no procs of the poison are wasted.
Did you account for poison procs being resistable? With resist rates I would think we need more than one proc every 12 seconds to assure a 5 stack stays up.
#811SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 songster
A "cycle" in this instance is also not 12 seconds long - it gets cut short every time you refresh a stack before the 12 second mark.
#812SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Garren
RE: Imp vs. Vile Poisons, I set up a simulator to test exactly this. My findings were at a decent gear level, vile poisons beat out improved poisons for any reasonable/intelligent gear setup (fast OH, decent amount of hit). This is because deadly poison gets enough uptime that the increased chance to proc is largely useless.

However, if I then force a periodic duration where no poison can be applied, loosely simulating a run out mechanic, improved poison improves significantly.

The conclusion is, which talent is better is related to how often you have to stop DPSing the boss, as well as your chance to proc it. HOWEVER, these talents don't have a very significant impact on your DPS, on the order of 1-3 DPS and the difference between them isn't very large. So the bottom line is, at a certain point it's not really worth worrying about the difference.

In the case that most prefers one over the other - you never miss or dodge, you never stop DPS, and you have an average of 1.0 OH (that's assuming a pretty solid amount of average haste, in addition to SnD) - the difference between 5/5 Imp and 5/5 Vile is still only ~7 DPS.

If after all of this, you are still worried about it, I would recommend 2 or 3 Imp, and the rest Vile for most fights.
#813SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Zujamar
This might be a bit trivial, but could [Alchemist's Stone] be useful in comparison to the 'pre-raid' trinkets? If you look only at dps, it's obviously inferior, but being in a regularly melee-heavy raid (in the context of early t5) makes me wonder if the extra punch for healing potions would make much of a difference compared to the (over)healing you'll be receiving.
#814SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Aldriana
I suppose it depends to some extent on how much you end up using potions. Personally, I only use healing potions about 1-2 times a night, tops; if you use them at this sort of rate of consumption, the bonus to potions is basically irrelevant. If you use them somewhat more, it would of course, have somewhat more value.

Fundamentally, though: the amount of healing you get from healing potions is pretty irrelevant on most fights. In a lot of circumstances, you just have to trust your healers - and, honestly, even if you do feel the need to pop something, I generally use the healthstone(s) before starting in on potions. So I would argue that the survivability benefit from Alchemist's Stone is minimal at best. Coupled with the fact that it's a huge loss of DPS (50 EAP versus 150+ for the better trinkets) means that it seems to be a pretty weak rogue trinket on the whole. I could see it getting some use in, for instance, 5 mans, where the damage totals being thrown around are smaller, but in raids I just don't see that you can make a case for it.
#815SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Shaker
The scope of this discussion is one where your healers are competent to the point where you should not worry about dying in any encounter where you are not taking irresponsible amounts of damage. In that context, the value of extra healing talents/abilities is pretty firmly set at 0. I fully admit that there are ways in which survivability talents/abilities can be very successfully modelled as DPS increases, but the scenarios which those surivability skills show higher dps are somewhat few and far between, making the modelling less interesting.
#816SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Muddstah
With the upcoming changes to Hemo and my new love for swords, I've been trying to figure out a new build for my rogue. Playing around with Wowhead's calculator, I came up with :

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

While I'm aware this isn't the typical Combat sword build, I was just wondering about somethings such as does Dirty Deeds on a mob make up for the lack of Lethality ?

I'd really like to hear some critique if possible, since I'm really hard pressed to give up these sub talents I've come to love.
#817SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
 songster
Originally Posted by Muddstah View Post
With the upcoming changes to Hemo and my new love for swords, I've been trying to figure out a new build for my rogue. Playing around with Wowhead's calculator, I came up with :

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

While I'm aware this isn't the typical Combat sword build, I was just wondering about somethings such as does Dirty Deeds on a mob make up for the lack of Lethality ?

I'd really like to hear some critique if possible, since I'm really hard pressed to give up these sub talents I've come to love.
With all due respect. this is one of the worst builds I've ever seen. It's a Hemo build without Hemo, when Hemo is point for point the best single talent point you can spend in any tree. The trouble with subtlety builds - all subtlety builds - is not Hemo itself, or even the deeper sub tree, but the almost complete lack of any DPS talents in the Sub tree untill you get to Serrated blades.

You've taken all the weak Sub talents and you don't even have Hemo to claw back some of the DPS you're throwing away.

Dirty Deeds isn't a bad talent, and it's probably better than Lethality point for point. But what you need to ask is whether Master of Deception makes up for the lack of Combat Potency, or Camouflage makes up for the lack of Aggression and Vitality, or Dirty Tricks makes up for the lack of Adrenaline Rush and Surprise Attacks.

Put like that, I hope the answer is obvious!

Note that Hemo, on its own, is sufficient to make up for all these shortcomings at lower gear levels, though it does still get outpaced at higher gear levels. But a sub build without Hemo makes about as much sense as using Sinister Strike with daggers.

Last edited by songster : 01/03/08 at 5:02 PM.
#818SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Shaker
Yeah, take 1 point from DD or sword spec, put it in hemo, and you have the basic hemo build linked in the first post of this thread.


Adding:

It should be noted that if the build you're using isn't linked in the first post, it is because it is not that good for PVE dps. I admit that it is possible that we've overlooked a build with synergy that we haven't accounted for, but if that's the case, please provide a WWS of you using such a build, doing great sustained DPS (for this purpose, I'd say > 1k DPS as fully T4 geared, > 1500 DPS fully T5 geared, or > 2000 DPS fully T6 geared), and if we find the results reproducable in the context of the current endgame (i.e. not a 1 trick pony for just one fight), I promise you we'll include it and study it further.
#819SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Muddstah
So it's either the classic hemo build 11 / 28 / 23 or just Combat Swords ? It's not viable at all to be able to take MoD and Imp Sap ? Hehe, I've gotten so used to having them in instances.
#820SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Shaker
Originally Posted by Muddstah View Post
So it's either the classic hemo build 11 / 28 / 23 or just Combat Swords ? It's not viable at all to be able to take MoD and Imp Sap ? Hehe, I've gotten so used to having them in instances.
You can have MOD and Imp Sap - just put a point in Hemo and use it as your main attack.
#821SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Muddstah
Oh it's not a serious build, I was just wondering if it was possible. I'm probably going to end up going the way of Combat Swords , I've found Hemo itself to have brought me much lower personal DPS than I'm comfortable with. It was fun to have MoD and Imp Sap though =)
#822SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Shaker
Originally Posted by Muddstah View Post
Oh it's not a serious build, I was just wondering if it was possible. I'm probably going to end up going the way of Combat Swords , I've found Hemo itself to have brought me much lower personal DPS than I'm comfortable with. It was fun to have MoD and Imp Sap though =)
That's more likely due to cycle errors than actual spec errors ... though given your previous spec I won't assert that strongly. 11/27/22 +1 Hemo should be within acceptable range of combat swords unless you're deep into T6, and even then I think the jury is still out.
#823SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Muddstah
Shaker , if you could please check your PM's.
#824SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Jakani
Originally Posted by Muddstah View Post
With the upcoming changes to Hemo and my new love for swords, I've been trying to figure out a new build for my rogue. Playing around with Wowhead's calculator, I came up with :

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

While I'm aware this isn't the typical Combat sword build, I was just wondering about somethings such as does Dirty Deeds on a mob make up for the lack of Lethality ?

I'd really like to hear some critique if possible, since I'm really hard pressed to give up these sub talents I've come to love.
You don't have to give them up, just keep hemo. It's worth having one hemo rogue in a raid.

SS needs Aggression, Surprise Attacks, and Combat Potency to approach the DPE of Hemo (even the 2.3.2 version).
#825SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0hannigaholic
Hemorrhage has better damage per energy than Sinister Strike and generates more CPs. It's only the extra energy generated through Combat Potency and the dodge negation on finishers that makes it worth using a deep Combat build.

As others have said, if you're going 11/2x/2x then take Hemo as your personal dps will increase and your contribution to overall raid dps will skyrocket. That's the purpose of the Subtlety tree in PvE, you sacrifice personal dps to increase the dps of others.
#826SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Beaarthur
Questions about Combat Daggers for T6 raiding

I recently got the Boundless Agony off of azgalar, and I decided once the messenger of fate or trackers blade dropped I'd give combat daggers another shot at our level. I used to love and miss CD's, I really enjoy playing that spec more than swords or the hybrid I run now.

I wanted to see what you guys thought about gearing and whcih stats I needed to refocus around for successfull cd's at our level. I'm thinking Crit, AP, Amr Pen, HR; in that order.
- Also, even after the miss cap raise, what is a comfortable HR for CD's? @230-290ish?
- Finally, is there a mod out there that will alert me when I've met positional req's for BS to make it easier? Something to help keep me behind my targets in the tightly cluttered trash mobs.

Also, if anyone out there is running Cd's at our level and has any advise, pls let me know... Cryingrogue comes to mind.

TY. Bea.
#827SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Shaker
All those questions are answered by either the first post or the spreadsheets linked in it. Just sayin'.
#828SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Beaarthur
Re, CD advise.

TY for pointing me in the right direction, I found all of the answers I was looking for save a mod that indicated (in a user friendly way) that I was behind an opponent for BS's. If you can think of anything or if I missed something, I appreciate it.

Again any additional advise is appreciated.

-Bea
#829SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Kriss
With the new 2.3 patch I've been hearing that there is a new hit cap (not just from the nerf/buff in weapon expertise) and that it is something like 360 hit rating for cap (and that's with 5/5 precision), can anybody confirm this?

Also, do you have a 5% chance to miss on all bosses even if you're at the hit cap (360 or whatever)? I recall seeing posts from people who have had max hit and not missing any attacks, or just one if they were close to the hit cap.
#830SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Vulajin
Originally Posted by Kriss View Post
With the new 2.3 patch I've been hearing that there is a new hit cap (not just from the nerf/buff in weapon expertise) and that it is something like 360 hit rating for cap (and that's with 5/5 precision), can anybody confirm this?

Also, do you have a 5% chance to miss on all bosses even if you're at the hit cap (360 or whatever)? I recall seeing posts from people who have had max hit and not missing any attacks, or just one if they were close to the hit cap.
You couldn't even read the first post in the thread?
#831SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Gixon
Hemo in raids

I respecced 40/21 Combat Potency/Hemo.

Preface - I am a top 5 dps rogue with mostly T5 items and 300 hit , Double Talons (SSC mh, ZA oh) with 5.07% haste, and 12 expertise.

Now with that said, I tried this spec for the first 2 bosses of BT, and all of TK. Naj'entus went well, top 5 dps. Supremus is not a real good rogue fight, but I was top rogue. Al'ar I was top rogue, same for solarian. The problem I came to is that the spec is not as strong as other rogue specs when it comes to rupture immune bosses. Also, the more physical damage the raid has, the less hemo's are used upon my own attacks. However that raises the other people's dps in the raid.

I am going to WWS tomorrow's Hyjal (up to azgalor), and I will see how strong of a rogue spec it really is.
#832SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0hannigaholic
Originally Posted by Gixon View Post
I respecced 40/21 Combat Potency/Hemo.

Preface - I am a top 5 dps rogue with mostly T5 items and 300 hit , Double Talons (SSC mh, ZA oh) with 5.07% haste, and 12 expertise.

Now with that said, I tried this spec for the first 2 bosses of BT, and all of TK. Naj'entus went well, top 5 dps. Supremus is not a real good rogue fight, but I was top rogue. Al'ar I was top rogue, same for solarian. The problem I came to is that the spec is not as strong as other rogue specs when it comes to rupture immune bosses. Also, the more physical damage the raid has, the less hemo's are used upon my own attacks. However that raises the other people's dps in the raid.

I am going to WWS tomorrow's Hyjal (up to azgalor), and I will see how strong of a rogue spec it really is.
Simply put, if you are top rogue dps with any Hemo-based spec then you either significantly outgear your fellow rogues, their specs are truly awful or they are doing something very wrong, or some combination of the three.

Full Combat specs will always generate more personal dps than a Hemo-based spec assuming gear and skill are anywhere close to being equal.
#833SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0parazyd
Went thru this entire epic thread, but didn't find an answer to the following question - does anyone have any tested & verified numbers regarding 5/5 Sword Spec + 5/5 Dagger Spec variation of standard 20/41/0 Combat spec in terms of raid damage (or boss damage, to be exact)?

It came from a discussion within my rogue squad after one of us swordies took Tracker's Blade in order to prevent it from being disenchanted. Since it's stat-wise and dps-wise clearly better than Season 2 sword, only logical thing to do is to use it, however nobody in this thread mentions having 5/5 Sword Spec and 5/5 Dagger Spec at the same time. That rogue is using Talon of Azshara in his mainhand.

One of us is using 5/5 Fist Spec + 5/5 Sword Spec for quite some time and it works like a charm.

Thanks for any info that might shed some light on the subject!
#834SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0tymoney321
If you use offhand dagger mainhand sword. You are basically just cutting your sword procs in half and getting nothing from the dagger spec(Need mainhand to take advantage of the 5% crit)

The key to a hybrid Fist/Sword spec is that the offhand attacks proc the Mainhand swings, while still getting the 5% crit bonus. With the standard sword spec, you have room to drop some filler talents (poisons) However daggers are at a 1.8 attack speed generally, so extra-attacks would do siginificantly less damage. You also would have to drop Lethality and 1 point on opportunity. It just wouldn't be viable. I could see a Mace/Sword Hybrid working though. But with Talon of Azshara your rogue shouldn't need to change weapons til Warglaives.
#835SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0parazyd
You got this the wrong way, maybe I wasn't clear enough. I'm talking about Talon of Azshara in mainhand and Tracker's Blade in offhand (1.50 speed offhand dagger). 5/5 Dagger Spec would increase that dagger's chance to crit by 5%, regardless if it's offhand or mainhand. This is the spec I'm talking about:

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft - 16/45/0

Thanks for the effort though =)
#836SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Tosa
Originally Posted by parazyd View Post
You got this the wrong way, maybe I wasn't clear enough. I'm talking about Talon of Azshara in mainhand and Tracker's Blade in offhand (1.50 speed offhand dagger). 5/5 Dagger Spec would increase that dagger's chance to crit by 5%, regardless if it's offhand or mainhand. This is the spec I'm talking about:

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft - 16/45/0

Thanks for the effort though =)
Dagger Spec "proc" from the off-hand (an off-hand crit) isn't very much damage at all. Sword Spec proc from the off-hand is a ton of damage beacuse it procs a main-hand swing. In my current gear, S2 is much better dps than Tracker's because of Sword Spec.
#837SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Krennick
His answer was true - I'd be surprised if it wasn't mentioned in some sense in the first post of this thread, but it's certainly been discussed and described many times in rogue threads on this forum:

If you have a MH that you are specced for, the MH dps increase from spec alone of fist, sword, mace and dagger are equivalent (no, not the same, but in the same range)

The reason swords is a better weapon spec than any other weapon spec is (put simply) that the sword spec taking effect on an OH swings gives you MH size benefits.

I'm sure it'll come as no surprise to you that OH hits for less than MH.
If you are dagger spec and your OH dagger hits - your OH dmg is increased by the factor of the dagger spec.
If you are fist spec and you OH fist hits - your OH dmg is increased by the factor of the fist spec.
If you are mace spec and you OH mace hits - your OH dmg is increased by the factor of mace fist spec.
If you are sword spec and your OH sword hits - your OH dmg is the same - but you get an additional MH swing, and since the MH damage is in a much higher range than the OH range, this makes sword spec with a sword in the OH better than any other weapon spec.

Fist/sword uses this mechanism - a sword in the OH so you get the main benefit of sword spec (an extra MH swing applied to a fist which then has increased crit from fist spec also)

There is no way that sword MH and dagger OH can be considered a comparable spec to fist/sword. You are throwing away the main benefit of the sword spec in comparison to other weapon specs by wielding a dagger and not a sword in the OH.

It's a bad idea based on the above principles alone. Without wasting too much of my time on something that I know intuitively is a bad idea, the fact that the dagger is 1.5 spd makes me pay attention for different reasons. As the first post in this thread will tell you when it comes to OH weapons faster is better and for a dagger 1.5 is considered slow.

All this aside - 5 minutes spent with the dps or the gear spreadsheet would have given you an equally clear answer. It's a bad idea and a dps loss.

To basically repeat what tymoney321 said...
If you are sword, dagger, mace or fist spec with two weapons of that type: 100% of MH attacks potentially gain dps from your weapon spec. 100% of OH attacks potentially gain dps from weapon spec.
If you are sword and fist specced, with a sword in the OH and fist in the MH: 100% of MH attacks potentially gain dps from your fist spec. 100% of OH attacks potentially gain dps from sword AND fist spec.
If you are sword and dagger specced with a sword in the MH and a dagger in the OH: 100% of MH attacks potentially gain dps from your sword spec. 100% of OH attacks potentially gain dps from your dagger spec (only - and this seems to be denied by the previous poster, something of which I'm not certain - presenting the ideal case, assume dagger spec applies).

In the above (edit note: fist/sword spec), the loss of talent points in poison talents is for the most part justified from a dps perspective by the AND in this sentence:
100% of OH attacks potentially gain dps from sword AND fist spec.

With what you're looking at there is no such redeeming feature.
#838SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Soarsha
Questions about Mutilate spec

I am thinking about this spec and I was wondering if 5/5 Find Weakness is better than 5/5 Improved Poisons?

I am still working through this 34 page thread, so maybe the answer is in there, so I apologize if it's already been answered.

If it is, could someone give me a link? Or page number?

Thanks.

Edit: Also I should note that with my rogue I primarliy want a good decent PVP spec. I don't have time to do arenas, but I do enjoy the burst damage and stun lock capability I currently have.

My armory profile is down and for the life of me I can't remember where all my talents are, I know it's similar to the one I posted above, but I don't have Find Weakness. I am just wondering if it's a viable talent for BG pvp?
#839SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Ozzmar
You're probably going to get a lot of blunt answers, so I'll try to spare you the trouble.

Find Weakness is what makes Mutilate work so well. You get a ton of combo points, and when you're constantly using finishers, Find Weakness is up almost all the time. It's a HUGE damage buff. Improved Poisons is really only to give you a significant DPS increase if you're sporting Instant Poison, which is a big no-no with Mutilate. If you aren't speccing Find Weakness, you might as well just stick to Backstab because all those finishers you'll be doing with Mutilate won't matter nearly as much without the extra 10% damage.

But, equally concerning is your choice of Opportunity over Dual Wield Specialization. Read the first post of this thread carefully - it's a poor choice to make.
#840SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Soarsha
I thought DW was only a slight improvement over opporturnity. Isn't opportunity better for burst damage? Rather than the sustained white damage dps that DW gives? I've been out of the loop for a while and my main is a hunter, so I'm researching and learning how to play a pvp rogue.

I will continue to read through this thread, and I thank you for your thoughts on Find Weakness, that does make a lot of sense.

Also, I've been using wound on my MH and crip on my OH, so I can see why Imp Poisions wouldn't be viable.

If I were to go 5/5 DW instead of Opportunity, is the rest of my build ok?

Thanks for all the help!
#841SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Left
I say forget Improved Poisons and Shiv on the Crippling Poison. Wounding will stack fast enough between instant attacks and autoattacks, and since you are using Mutilate the offhand attack component + autoattacks should be enough to keep Crippling up after the initial Shiv.

Find Weakness is much superior to either Vile or Improved Poisons. Improved vs. vile are more interchangeable, but for PvP I'd say keep vile and drop improved.

Something you may not know about DW spec is that it increases the offhand bonus damage of your Mutilate attack (not just the weapon damage portion), which makes it very good at lower gear levels. For Mutilate, it is almost a tossup between Opportunity and DW Spec, but the white damage (and Shiv) benefits of DW Spec make it the clear winner.

Lets assume you have equal damage range weapons in both hands:

Mutilate -> DMG = (WeaponDmg + 101) + (WeaponDmg*0.5 + 101) = 1.5*WeaponDmg + 202
Mutilate w/ Opportunity -> DMG = ((WeaponDmg + 101) + (WeaponDmg*0.5 + 101))*1.2 = 1.8*WeaponDmg + 242
Mutilate w/ DW Spec -> DMG = (WeaponDmg + 101) + (WeaponDmg*0.5 + 101)*1.5 = 1.75*WeaponDmg + 252

With Opportunity you get a Mutilate attack that scales very slightly better with your weapon damage, but with DW Spec you get a higher base damage (by 10) plus much improved white damage. DW Spec is the clear winner overall.

Last edited by Left : 01/04/08 at 12:06 PM. Reason: I kan speel gud
#842SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Latito
Originally Posted by Soarsha View Post
how to play a pvp rogue.
No offense man, but this is pretty much a PvE only thread. Check out the first post, I believe it references that all the discussion in here are related to PvE matters. I would suggest checking out the PvP forum on these boards instead.

That said, DW is significantly more damage than Opportunity. In fact, DW is nearly as much of an increase to your Mutilates alone, compared to Opportunity. If your interest is PvP however, you'll likely be taking MoD and stuff.. so Opportunity is sort of a default choice.


Re: Swords + Daggers
As mentioned already, the power of sword spec is that OH attacks proc MH swings. Those MH swings aren't affected by DW penalty, and additionally have a much slower swing time (thus higher dmg range). Having 5% more crit on an OH attack is pretty whimpy. Having a 1.5spd weapon proc a 2.6+ spd attack is pretty OP. Any dual-spec build requires a sword in the OH to be potentially viable. A Dagger-MH, Sword OH is bad too, considering you're now attempting to backstab and such.. which is basically all the horrors of Combat Daggers. Not to mention you negate the bulk of the strength of sword spec since your extra attacks are now at a 1.8spd instead of 2.6+.
#843SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Ozzmar
Originally Posted by Soarsha View Post
I thought DW was only a slight improvement over opporturnity. Isn't opportunity better for burst damage? Rather than the sustained white damage dps that DW gives? I've been out of the loop for a while and my main is a hunter, so I'm researching and learning how to play a pvp rogue.

I will continue to read through this thread, and I thank you for your thoughts on Find Weakness, that does make a lot of sense.

Also, I've been using wound on my MH and crip on my OH, so I can see why Imp Poisions wouldn't be viable.

If I were to go 5/5 DW instead of Opportunity, is the rest of my build ok?

Thanks for all the help!
Oh, I guess I didn't put 2 and 2 together and realize that you were talking about pvp. Apologies! Latito is right - you should check out the thread in the pvp forum: [Rogue] PVP Stat Standards/advice

If you want good burst and pvp utility, a 41/0/20 spec will work great, though 41/20/0 can be arguably just as effective depending on who you ask.

Last edited by Ozzmar : 01/04/08 at 12:12 PM. Reason: Decided to be nice and add a link
#844SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Soarsha
Originally Posted by Ozzmar View Post
Oh, I guess I didn't put 2 and 2 together and realize that you were talking about pvp. Apologies! Latito is right - you should check out the thread in the pvp forum: [Rogue] PVP Stat Standards/advice

If you want good burst and pvp utility, a 41/0/20 spec will work great, though 41/20/0 can be arguably just as effective depending on who you ask.

Not at all a problem, I'm still learning this class, so I'm trying to absorb as much information as I can. I apologize for trying to get pvp help in a pvp thread.

I will check out that link, thank you.
#845SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Achillion
Aight I got a new question coming up:

At low gear levels I found that I couldn't live without Quick Recovery (I am Mutilate).
I'm thinking of speccing off it now since I've started to get my hit rating up. It's not even close to the cap but I feel I don't miss as much now to have 2 talent points on that talent.

Would most of you guys consider Quick Recovery a useless talent from the start or is it something that just becomes less useful as your hit rating grows?
#846SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0 Scheme
Originally Posted by Achillion View Post
Aight I got a new question coming up:

At low gear levels I found that I couldn't live without Quick Recovery (I am Mutilate).
I'm thinking of speccing off it now since I've started to get my hit rating up. It's not even close to the cap but I feel I don't miss as much now to have 2 talent points on that talent.

Would most of you guys consider Quick Recovery a useless talent from the start or is it something that just becomes less useful as your hit rating grows?
Finishers require only 9% hit to never miss. Additional hit rating past the 9% mark has no effect on finishers. They can still be dodged (and parried/blocked if you're in front), but that requires Expertise to mitigate. That aside, QR is far from a useless talent for Mutilate rogues; that extra 20% healing bonus can be a lifesaver at times.
#847SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Vodrin
Originally Posted by Achillion View Post
Aight I got a new question coming up:

At low gear levels I found that I couldn't live without Quick Recovery (I am Mutilate).
I'm thinking of speccing off it now since I've started to get my hit rating up. It's not even close to the cap but I feel I don't miss as much now to have 2 talent points on that talent.

Would most of you guys consider Quick Recovery a useless talent from the start or is it something that just becomes less useful as your hit rating grows?
Your hit rating should be capped on finishers extremely easily. Only expertise will remove the dodge left for specials to miss, not hit rating.
#848SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Achillion
I know the healing bonus is great too. I especially like how it works on bandages, healing pots and healthstones too, but wouldn't switching the two points to a PvE damage oriented talent be more useful?

My current hit is 16.55%, I am way passed the finisher cap so this talent only saves me energy from dodges. Wouldn't a talent like Murder (yes, I don't have murder) be more useful for DPS?

Optional talents to spend points are:
Murder
Last point in Imp Poisons + 1 more somewhere else
Fleet Footed (run speed increase is nice but I consider this a mostly useless talent)

So basically the question boils down to QR vs Murder

My current build
#849SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Cos-
Originally Posted by Achillion View Post
I know the healing bonus is great too. I especially like how it works on bandages, healing pots and healthstones too, but wouldn't switching the two points to a PvE damage oriented talent be more useful?

My current hit is 16.55%, I am way passed the finisher cap so this talent only saves me energy from dodges. Wouldn't a talent like Murder (yes, I don't have murder) be more useful for DPS?

Optional talents to spend points are:
Murder
Last point in Imp Poisons + 1 more somewhere else
Fleet Footed (run speed increase is nice but I consider this a mostly useless talent)

So basically the question boils down to QR vs Murder

My current build
How much expertise do you wear? If you have any significant expertise then murder is probably a good choice. Mutilate uses an absolutely inane number of finishers though so that energy return adds up fast.

If you aren't going to take fleetfooted then I hope you have a runspeed enchant/gem. I can count the number of current endgame fights that don't require any moving at all on 1 finger and there has been a lot of math done dealing with the dps boost from runspeed.

Why waste points on 3/3 imp evis? That is some serious point investment on your third/fourth priority finisher. Your imp poison points are probably pretty unnecessary too but eh that's personal taste.
#850SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Achillion
Originally Posted by Cos- View Post
How much expertise do you wear? If you have any significant expertise then murder is probably a good choice. Mutilate uses an absolutely inane number of finishers though so that energy return adds up fast.

If you aren't going to take fleetfooted then I hope you have a runspeed enchant/gem. I can count the number of current endgame fights that don't require any moving at all on 1 finger and there has been a lot of math done dealing with the dps boost from runspeed.

Why waste points on 3/3 imp evis? That is some serious point investment on your third/fourth priority finisher. Your imp poison points are probably pretty unnecessary too but eh that's personal taste.
0 expertise currently. So you're saying it's best to stick to QR? QR energy return would outweigh murder dps increase at low expertise?

As for 3/3 imp evisc: I use evisc A LOT! SnD never runs out and rupture might be down for 1-2 seconds between cycles and I still have time for an eviscerate (sometimes 2). Besides I'm hoping to start going for Void Reaver again soon (guild has been going backwards progress wise lately) and I'm keeping it for that as well.

I would remove imp eviscerate if I start raiding hard again but why is imp poisons unnecessary? I go IP/DP to raids and with the talend I can keep 5 DP up and get a good dps increase from more frequent IP procs. Would another talent in the tree be more useful?
#851SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Cos-
Originally Posted by Achillion View Post
0 expertise currently. So you're saying it's best to stick to QR? QR energy return would outweigh murder dps increase at low expertise?

As for 3/3 imp evisc: I use evisc A LOT! SnD never runs out and rupture might be down for 1-2 seconds between cycles and I still have time for an eviscerate (sometimes 2). Besides I'm hoping to start going for Void Reaver again soon (guild has been going backwards progress wise lately) and I'm keeping it for that as well.

I would remove imp eviscerate if I start raiding hard again but why is imp poisons unnecessary? I go IP/DP to raids and with the talend I can keep 5 DP up and get a good dps increase from more frequent IP procs. Would another talent in the tree be more useful?
In a perfect world you'd be getting windfury (yes even for mutilate) and unless you envenom your dp is not going to fall off so any utility you can gain from imp poisons goes away in the first 20 seconds of a boss fight.

If you're worried about your VR damage that much then realize murder is pretty much useless to you. Figure out how many finishers you use in a minute. Make 5% of them dodges then figure out how much energy you waste. Figure out how much Damage Per Energy you're wasting without QR. Convert that to DPS. If it works out to more then ~20 dps (about all I can see murder realistically adding at your progression level considering the bosses it even works on are maybe half? of t5) then QR is better.
#852SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Achillion
It's not that I'm worried about VR (or Hydross). If I was that worried I'd respec combat since mutilate sucks against poison immunes. My main point was that I use eviscerate as a third priority finisher and, given CP buildup rates, I don't have a hard time using it along with SnD and Rupture. I just mentioned VR as a point where imp evisc would come in handy.

Would this look like a more efficient build? (assassination talents only)

* Keeping QR to save energy on dodges
* 2 points in imp evisc cos i need to put them somewhere to reach third row and only viable alternative is murder.
* Fleet footed for fights that require moving around
* 3 points Imp poisons for when WF is unavailable and for a little extra help in keeping DP up
#853SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Latito
Would Master Poisoner not be better than Imp Poisons? 10% instead of 4% for 2 points.. and it works on the DoT ticks, not just the application. Or am I missing something?
#854SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Achillion
I'm no expert but in my mind 4% extra chance to apply every time you strike > 10% less chance to get a resist.

I could be wrong though. I'm not good at wow math :P
#855SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Cos-
Originally Posted by Latito View Post
Would Master Poisoner not be better than Imp Poisons? 10% instead of 4% for 2 points.. and it works on the DoT ticks, not just the application. Or am I missing something?
Master Poisoner doesn't replace "spell hit" type misses right? It would only get rid of partials? 1/2 Master poison is good but I'm not sure you need a second point in pve. It really depends what it actually does.

I think someone worked it out on these boards, I'll edit this post if I can find it.

And for the guy with mutilate questions, murder is still better dps then imp poisons on any fight it works on. 2% of 100% your dps >6% increase of 4-5%.
#856SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Cos-
Originally Posted by Achillion View Post
I'm no expert but in my mind 4% extra chance to apply every time you strike > 10% less chance to get a resist.

I could be wrong though. I'm not good at wow math :P
edit: I hate IP and even having to think about using it. Blah blah.

Last edited by Cos- : 01/06/08 at 3:24 AM.
#857SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Ozzmar
It's only 10% if there's that much of a chance to be resisted exists in the first place.
#858SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Cos-
Originally Posted by Ozzmar View Post
It's only 10% if there's that much of a chance to be resisted exists in the first place.
I've been going through some WWSes and I see anywhere from 6-12% resist rates for poisons on raid bosses. 1/2 Master Poisoner seems very worth it.
#859SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Achillion
Ok time for some wow math:
(Please correct me if I'm wrong ASAP. I don't claim to know this stuff well)


Assume 1000 weapon hits with no talents =
200 imp poison procs (20% chance to apply poison) - 12% resist rates (worst case scenario) = 176 instant poison _hits_

Now let's add master poisoner (-10% chance to resist) = 200 poison procs - (12% - 10%) resist = 196 hits (possibly even 200) but nevertheless 200 MAX!

Now without master poisoner but 2 points imp poisons (4% extra chance to apply poison per weapon strike):
@ 1000 hits = 240 procs (24% chance to apply IP) - 12% resist rate = 211 IP hits.



I think that looks right...
#860SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Cos-
Originally Posted by Achillion View Post
Ok time for some wow math:
(Please correct me if I'm wrong ASAP. I don't claim to know this stuff well)


Assume 1000 weapon hits with no talents =
200 imp poison procs (20% chance to apply poison) - 12% resist rates (worst case scenario) = 176 instant poison _hits_

Now let's add master poisoner (-10% chance to resist) = 200 poison procs - (12% - 10%) resist = 196 hits (possibly even 200) but nevertheless 200 MAX!

Now without master poisoner but 2 points imp poisons (4% extra chance to apply poison per weapon strike):
@ 1000 hits = 240 procs (24% chance to apply IP) - 12% resist rate = 211 IP hits.



I think that looks right...
Poison procs are both completely and partially resisted.
If master poisoner reduces both then it's a little different.

170 average hit yet wws shows ~5% ip mitigation so 161.5 average IP before crap like misery.
Let's use your numbers 211 hits without MP= 34076.5 damage
196 hits with 2/2 MP: 33320
1000 swings with 1/5 imp poison 1/2 MP
204 hits of 170= 34782

If MP reduces the partial resist mitigation of poison then 1/5 and 1/2 is more damage then both 2/5 and 2/2 on their own.
#861SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Latito
Where did you get the 6-12% resist rate? If that included trash, it is an incorrect number. Poisons should go off of the default spell miss rate, which against a lvl 73 boss is 17% resist.

1000 attacks with instant poison:
200 * 0.83 = 166 poison procs, 6% dmg loss to partial resists = 156 effective poison procs

1000 attacks w/ instant poison and 2/5 Imp Pois:
240 * 0.83 = 199 landed, 6% dmg loss to partial resists = 187 effective poison procs

1000 attacks w/ instant poison and 2/2 MP:
200 * 0.93 = 186 landed, 0% dmg loss to partial resists = 186 effective poison procs


Now, thats all well and good for instant poison, but with deadly poison.. you'll generally keep the stack up just fine with either talent and the real dps gain is from reducing the partial resists.


The 83% and 6% come from the base spell resist rates and average non-binary partial resist dps loss for casters. This is effectively the glancing blows of spell casters. If these numbers are wrong, by all means correct me. I did a rough check of a few WWS's and it seems to fall roughly in the right place, but thats a pretty small sample size.
#862SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Jakani
Originally Posted by Cos- View Post
Say that to yourself again.
4% more instant poison damage or 10% more instant poison damage?
Well, it's not actually 4% more damage. It's 4% additional proc chance, an increase of 4/20 = 20% more damage (which is then mitigated by the resist rate). It's still more.
#863SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
Cos-
Originally Posted by Latito View Post
Where did you get the 6-12% resist rate? If that included trash, it is an incorrect number. Poisons should go off of the default spell miss rate, which against a lvl 73 boss is 17% resist.

1000 attacks with instant poison:
200 * 0.83 = 166 poison procs, 6% dmg loss to partial resists = 156 effective poison procs

1000 attacks w/ instant poison and 2/5 Imp Pois:
240 * 0.83 = 199 landed, 6% dmg loss to partial resists = 187 effective poison procs

1000 attacks w/ instant poison and 2/2 MP:
200 * 0.93 = 186 landed, 0% dmg loss to partial resists = 186 effective poison procs


Now, thats all well and good for instant poison, but with deadly poison.. you'll generally keep the stack up just fine with either talent and the real dps gain is from reducing the partial resists.


The 83% and 6% come from the base spell resist rates and average non-binary partial resist dps loss for casters. This is effectively the glancing blows of spell casters. If these numbers are wrong, by all means correct me. I did a rough check of a few WWS's and it seems to fall roughly in the right place, but thats a pretty small sample size.
I got my 12% and 6% numbers from WWS read outs. Its really hard to find sample sizes that are large yet don't have multiple mob levels in them. How many bosses last more then 5 minutes anymore? Illidan? I just don't really have many poison procs anymore. I'm willing to believe it should be 17%, that works for me.

WWS:
Khrodos - WWS this guy has 73 wound poison procs on Morogrim without any partials? Wound can't partial because of the healing debuff? He has a 13% miss rate otherwise.

I searched and searched but I couldn't seem to find posts explaining what MP actually did. I remember Kalman talking about it ages ago but I had no luck tracking it down. Does MP reduce partials? complete misses? Anyone?

Yeah this entire derail is about IP when DP is all that really matters since you really shouldn't be speccing for optimizing your dps in suboptimal groups....unless your guild just doesn't have shaman or you are your guild's redheaded stepchild rogue who never gets good dps groups. In that second case you probably don't want to be limping along with mutilate since that's probably why you might be getting the shit group anyway.

Last edited by Cos- : 01/06/08 at 3:38 AM.
#864SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Selectamundo
Cheers Vulajin for making this post was a good read for more in-depth knowledge of a rogue .
#865SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0Batory
Question:

How would you optimize 3/5 cycle with AR? I find myself poping it up and then go totaly random, at teh end losing either rupture uptime or refreshing SnD. Is there any good sequence you are aware of, that maximize it's use. If so, when to pop it, after applying rupture? Before? Would be great to know it
#866SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0koaschten
Batory, I usually just weave in a 5pt eviscerate and either do a 5pt SnD at the end to add a 5pt rupture 3 eviscerate combo and return to 3/5 or just go back to 3/5, depending on snd time left and energy procs (Combat Potency etc).

I'd suggest to fire AR in your standard cycle, just after 3 SnD. This ensures you get guaranteed enough ComboPoints for 2 5pt finisher and some time to build up ComboPoints for a new SnD.
#867SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.0
Edited onPatch 2.3.0
royaljester
Originally Posted by koaschten View Post
Batory, I usually just weave in a 5pt eviscerate and either do a 5pt SnD at the end to add a 5pt rupture 3 eviscerate combo and return to 3/5 or just go back to 3/5, depending on snd time left and energy procs (Combat Potency etc).

I'd suggest to fire AR in your standard cycle, just after 3 SnD. This ensures you get guaranteed enough ComboPoints for 2 5pt finisher and some time to build up ComboPoints for a new SnD.
I usually get 3-4 pt SND up, then pop and can usually get a 5pt Rupture and a 5pt Evis with enough energy left + potency + ticks to give me 1-3 combo pts right off the bat coming out and bam, 3pt snd again and back into my cycle. If you time it with your other haste items (BF, Haste pot, Heroism, Drums) you can end up having more than enough energy to make AR a blessing instead of an awkward time...like I know a lot of rogues have when they pop it.

Last edited by royaljester : 01/07/08 at 1:41 PM.
#868SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
Tayron
Hello everyone

First of all, thanks for putting so much effort in this thread, and with that helping me on several issues I had.

Now to what troubles me.
1. Windfury. Does it trigger from styles too, or only white attacks? I'm simply not sure about it, and even as it is in wrong thread perhaps, I wonder if a Shaman using WF on both weaps can get a proc from both weapons when using Stormstrike.

2. If I understand right, procs like mongoose or DST are set to 1/60s(i.e.), and this rate is then used on your weapon speed. So a 2.00 speed weapon would have 3,33% to proc.
This means, that any haste effect I get loweres the time I have those buffs up, as the chance decreases with haste, and so my styles trigger the proc less often. Is that correct?

3. +x Weapon Damage Enchant is used as a static bonus as far as I have seen. Yet on my paladin which is wielding one handed sword with +4 weapon damage enchant, it seems to be not a static bonus, but a +4 dps instead.
To show:
I'm specced protection there, thus I have 5% bonus damage and need to get to 100% always.
The weapon I am using has got 48,8dps(at 2.00 speed) and the +4 weapon damage enchant.

The dps shown for my weapon hits on the paladin is 106,5 dps(105% dmg)-> 101,4286(100% dmg)
On unequipping the weapon, there is 51,1 dps(48,6667dps with 100%dmg) left.
Difference is 101,524-48,6667=52,7619 (~48,8+4=52,8), which leads me to the impression, that the enchant is +4 dps, not +4dmg on hit, as else the dps of the weapon self should have been 50,8.

Has anyone else here yet done any testing on that and can confirm this or tell me where my fault is?

I have noticed the same for the scopes on ranged weapons by the way, but I dont have any number there right atm.

I just state this, as it would mean, that pre-mongoose, your best choice for enchants would be +7dmg on MH and +20agi on OH.

Last edited by Tayron : 01/08/08 at 12:33 PM.
#869SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Latito
Originally Posted by Tayron View Post
Hello everyone

First of all, thanks for putting so much effort in this thread, and with that helping me on several issues I had.

Now to what troubles me.
1. Windfury. Does it trigger from styles too, or only white attacks? I'm simply not sure about it, and even as it is in wrong thread perhaps, I wonder if a Shaman using WF on both weaps can get a proc from both weapons when using Stormstrike.

2. If I understand right, procs like mongoose or DST are set to 1/60s(i.e.), and this rate is then used on your weapon speed. So a 2.00 speed weapon would have 3,33% to proc.
This means, that any haste effect I get loweres the time I have those buffs up, as the chance decreases with haste, and so my styles trigger the proc less often. Is that correct?

3. +x Weapon Damage Enchant is used as a static bonus as far as I have seen. Yet on my paladin which is wielding one handed sword with +4 weapon damage enchant, it seems to be not a static bonus, but a +4 dps instead.
To show:
I'm specced protection there, thus I have 5% bonus damage and need to get to 100% always.
The weapon I am using has got 48,8dps(at 2.00 speed) and the +4 weapon damage enchant.

The dps shown for my weapon hits on the paladin is 106,5 dps(105% dmg)-> 101,4286(100% dmg)
On unequipping the weapon, there is 51,1 dps(48,6667dps with 100%dmg) left.
Difference is 101,524-48,6667=52,7619 (~48,8+4=52,8), which leads me to the impression, that the enchant is +4 dps, not +4dmg on hit, as else the dps of the weapon self should have been 50,8.

Has anyone else here yet done any testing on that and can confirm this or tell me where my fault is?

I have noticed the same for the scopes on ranged weapons by the way, but I dont have any number there right atm.
1 - WF used to trigger from other attacks, as of (a few patches ago) it only triggers from auto attacks. That said, special attacks can proc Sword Spec, which can in turn proc WF. The WF Totem (what rogues and warriors will be getting) has no internal CD and can proc as often as you can swing, averaging 20%. WF Weapon however, the thing only shaman can get (similar to rogue poisons) has a 3-second internal CD. Thus, if your MH attack from Stormstrike procs WF, the OH attack cannot. WF Weapon grants 2 additional attacks - it is superior to WF Totem for a shaman.

2 - To the best of our collective knowledge, you are right for auto attacks. Most proc-based things (DST, etc) are on a PPM (procs per minute) basis to allow for fast and slow weapons to gain roughly the same benefit from them. For auto attacks, it appears to take your current hasted speed into account when to determine a % chance. For specials, it appears to take the base weapon speed. This basically means that haste is not a factor for proc chances. Again, this could be wrong, as testing for such subtle differences to any degree of reasonable confidence is just quite difficult (10's or 100's of thousands of swings worth of testing)

3 - Are you looking at the paperdoll stats or testing hitting something? I'm not sure myself how this works but it certainly is an important area to test. Perhaps we could have an enchanter run around hitting snakes with a 1-2 dps weapon with and then without a ring w/ Striking equipped.
#870SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2kirchhoff
One this I have noticed from the combat mace/sword spec is you gain 10 total expertise from being human, (+5 from swords and +5 maces) and it seems to affect all swings. Has anyone looked into this? Would this be enough to make combat sword/mace surpass combat sword/sword?
#871SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
Tayron
Originally Posted by Latito View Post
3 - Are you looking at the paperdoll stats or testing hitting something? I'm not sure myself how this works but it certainly is an important area to test. Perhaps we could have an enchanter run around hitting snakes with a 1-2 dps weapon with and then without a ring w/ Striking equipped.
I looked at the paperdoll stats, but as said, it just surprised me being like that, as it was the same for ranged weapons and scopes.
I'll see if I can get my paladin later and do some testing with a 1-2dps weapon and enchanting +4dmg on it.

Last edited by Tayron : 01/08/08 at 1:43 PM.
#872SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Balkoth
Back to the poisons for one moment...

If we assume an offhand is hitting every 1.15 seconds, that means it will more or less hit the target 10 times after a DP proc before the stack falls off. Assuming a 100% hit chance and no poison resists, that's a 0.7^10, or nearly a 3% chance for the stack to fall off.

DP ticks for a base of 225 at a five stack, I believe, which is a contribution of 75 DPS. Adding 3 points in Vile Poisons (going by the Combat Swords build in the first post) adds 12% damage to poisons, or a a DPS increase of 9 (3 per point).

Conversely, getting three points in Improved Poisons reduces the chance to fall off to 0.64^10, or a 1.1% chance. Playing around with the rogue gear spreadsheet has given me the following results: 1 point in Vile Poisons is just over a 2 DPS increase (probably from factoring in resists and possibly the stack falling of) while 1 point in Improved Poisons didn't adjust the DPS by more than 0.1-0.2 DPS, if I recall correctly.

Is a 12% increase in poison damage truly 10 times better than cutting the chance for the stack to fall off in third? Does this seem to be a logical conclusion?
#873SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2 Aldriana
Originally Posted by Balkoth View Post
Back to the poisons for one moment...

If we assume an offhand is hitting every 1.15 seconds, that means it will more or less hit the target 10 times after a DP proc before the stack falls off. Assuming a 100% hit chance and no poison resists, that's a 0.7^10, or nearly a 3% chance for the stack to fall off.

DP ticks for a base of 225 at a five stack, I believe, which is a contribution of 75 DPS. Adding 3 points in Vile Poisons (going by the Combat Swords build in the first post) adds 12% damage to poisons, or a a DPS increase of 9 (3 per point).

Conversely, getting three points in Improved Poisons reduces the chance to fall off to 0.64^10, or a 1.1% chance. Playing around with the rogue gear spreadsheet has given me the following results: 1 point in Vile Poisons is just over a 2 DPS increase (probably from factoring in resists and possibly the stack falling of) while 1 point in Improved Poisons didn't adjust the DPS by more than 0.1-0.2 DPS, if I recall correctly.

Is a 12% increase in poison damage truly 10 times better than cutting the chance for the stack to fall off in third? Does this seem to be a logical conclusion?
So, first off, let me say that the Deadly Poison model in the Rogue Gear Spreadsheet is not what it might be. It is, in fact, probably one of the least accurate aspects of the sheet. It's designed as a reasonable ballpark figure and not a whole lot more - basically because actually computing uptime is rather hard (by which I mean: I don't know how to do it off the top of my head, and haven't gotten around to looking it up). So it's entirely possible that I'm over or underestimating the value of some of the poison talents in the sheet. However, for the sake of argument, lets look at the numbers for a minute.

So, firstly, your calculation above neglects the chance that a Deadly Poison application is resisted. So, in practice, the application rates for 0 and 1 point in Improved Poisons are not 30 and 32 percent, but .83 times that, or 24.9 and 26.56 percent.

So, if we then do your calculation above with those probabilities, the chance to fall off is 5.71% without improved poisons, and 4.56% with 1 point in Improved Poisons. So, that one point in Improved Poisons reduces the chance of the stack to fall off by almost 25%. And when you say it that way, it sounds great.

But, lets now consider what this actually means in practice. What is this "chance to fall off" parameter, and how does it relate to damage? Well, a moment's thought indicates that what this actually is is the downtime percentage of the poison - that is, what fraction of the time you *don't* have at least one Deadly Poison stack up. But that, by itself, is not really that interesting a number; what we care about is how often Deadly Poison *is* up, as that's when it's doing damage. And the increase in uptime is roughly (1-.0456) / (1-.0571) = 1.012, so the actual increase in uptime is only about 1.2%. And since poison does 75 DPS while applied, that works out to about .9 DPS.

Unfortunately, this doesn't totally tell the story either. One must estimate the amount of time it takes poison to stack up after dropping and some stuff like that - which is where all this turns truly messy. So this .9 DPS number is certainly off; how far off is hard to say, but, for the sake of argument, we'll go with it.

Now, .9 DPS is more than you observed in the sheet; but lets look at our assumptions for a moment. 10 attacks between Deadly Poison refreshes is basically consistent with a 1.5 speed weapon and no haste effects of any kind. If you have any haste effects - or a 1.4 speed OH - or both, you will tend to attack more frequently than this. And a little massaging of the numbers shows that the more attacks you're making, the less difference Improved Poisons makes on a percentage basis. So most people will probably observe somewhat less than that difference in the spreadsheet.

Now, admittedly, even with itemization as specified - no haste procs and a 1.5 speed OH - the spreadsheet only estimates about .5 DPS for the first point in Improved Poisons versus the .9 we estimated, so it is entirely possible that there's a bug in the sheet; however, it does get the fundamental point correct (namely, that Vile Poisons is better with Deadly Poison), and a difference on the scale of 1 DPS out of 1500 is not going to skew the other results of the sheet in a meaningful way. Hence, I'm not too inclined to worried about the problem. Maybe it's right, and maybe it's wrong, but either way it's pretty close. The next time I'm releasing a major version of the sheet I'll revisit the issue and see if I can tune things up; in the meantime, I think it's fine.
#874SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Tayron
Originally Posted by Latito View Post
3 - Are you looking at the paperdoll stats or testing hitting something? I'm not sure myself how this works but it certainly is an important area to test. Perhaps we could have an enchanter run around hitting snakes with a 1-2 dps weapon with and then without a ring w/ Striking equipped.
Tested with my paladin in Northshire hitting lv 1-2 mobs with 1,2dps sword, 2.6speed.

100hits(non-crits) unenchanted: min 82; average 84; max 85

100 hits enchanted with +3 weapon damage: min 85; average 87; max 88

Hmm, clearly static bonus, yet I wonder where the numbers from paperdoll stats come from... :/
Well, yet another good thing to know, that +28crit scope is really better than +12dmg scope.
#875SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Arindelest
Originally Posted by Tayron View Post
Well, yet another good thing to know, that +28crit scope is really better than +12dmg scope.
I apologize if you're talking about hunters, but the scopes only affect ranged attacks (I assumed since you were posting in the rogue thread).
#876SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2ishoni
Sorry that this is a bit off topic, but is Hydross the only boss in SSC that is immune to bleeds? I'm having an argument with someone in my guild, and he's saying that rupture isn't very good because all the bosses in SSC are immune, which I don't believe.
#877SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2adun
Yes, only hydross in ssc
#878SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
hannigaholic
Hydross is the only boss that is immune, but also the Elementals at Vashj are immune to both bleed and poison.

As far as I can remember everything else is susceptible to bleed and poison

Originally Posted by Arindelest View Post
I apologize if you're talking about hunters, but the scopes only affect ranged attacks (I assumed since you were posting in the rogue thread).
I could have sworn I'd heard that the crit scope affects melee as well. Not that I've tested it myself since I have Serpentshrine Shuriken...

Last edited by hannigaholic : 01/09/08 at 5:30 AM.
#879SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2hannigaholic
--edit--

Sorry, double post
#880SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Left
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
So, first off, let me say that the Deadly Poison model in the Rogue Gear Spreadsheet is not what it might be. It is, in fact, probably one of the least accurate aspects of the sheet. It's designed as a reasonable ballpark figure and not a whole lot more - basically because actually computing uptime is rather hard (by which I mean: I don't know how to do it off the top of my head, and haven't gotten around to looking it up). So it's entirely possible that I'm over or underestimating the value of some of the poison talents in the sheet. However, for the sake of argument, lets look at the numbers for a minute.

---snipped long discussion of deadly poison---
At the risk of shameless self promotion, here is a cross link to a post I have on the Rogue DPS Spreadsheet thread discussing the modelling of Deadly Poison between the two sheets and how it might be improved. I basically concluded that the DPS sheet underestimates poison damage and the Gear sheet overestimates it (due to not accounting for stack-up time after a fall off). I came close to putting together a better formula to use, but I got stuck converting the probability of DP falling off to an average time before it does.

Take a look if you want some additional ideas on DP modeling. Unfortunately, not being a statistician I can't really vouch for the mathematical correctness of my approach, but I think the concept of what I'm getting at is valid.
#881SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Tayron
Originally Posted by Arindelest View Post
I apologize if you're talking about hunters, but the scopes only affect ranged attacks (I assumed since you were posting in the rogue thread).
I know that ^^ But as I'm Engineer, I also show some interest on which scope I build is most efficient für our hunters.


Originally Posted by hannigaholic View Post
I could have sworn I'd heard that the crit scope affects melee as well. Not that I've tested it myself since I have Serpentshrine Shuriken...
No, it's stated on the scope itself that it only improves "the weapon it's used on".
#882SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2 Gearman
[Biznicks 247x128 Accurascope] used to affect melee as well, but that was changed quite a while ago.
#883SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
 Aldriana
Originally Posted by Left View Post
At the risk of shameless self promotion, here is a cross link to a post I have on the Rogue DPS Spreadsheet thread discussing the modelling of Deadly Poison between the two sheets and how it might be improved. I basically concluded that the DPS sheet underestimates poison damage and the Gear sheet overestimates it (due to not accounting for stack-up time after a fall off). I came close to putting together a better formula to use, but I got stuck converting the probability of DP falling off to an average time before it does.

Take a look if you want some additional ideas on DP modeling. Unfortunately, not being a statistician I can't really vouch for the mathematical correctness of my approach, but I think the concept of what I'm getting at is valid.
So, the thing is, I did actually try to account for stack-up time when I wrote the model in the Rogue Gear sheet. Looking back, though, it does appear that I may have bungled it. So, in the interest of professional curiosity, lets work over deadly poison modeling for a moment.

Let n = the number of attacks that hit in the average second made with weapons that have deadly poison on them. That is, if you're using Deadly Poison on OH, this is the number of OH attacks per second times the chance that an OH attack hits.

Let m be the probability that Deadly Poison procs on a given hit.

Then p = .83 * m * n is the probability that Deadly Poison is applied in a given second. Let q = 1-p.

It is easy to see that the uptime of Deadly Poison - that is, the fraction of the time when you have at least one proc up - is 1-q^12. But how do we account for ramp-up time?

Well, the immediate idea which occurs to me is that we can estimate the duration of the average Deadly Poison gap, and use that to estimate how frequently such gaps occur.

Let us assume that 12 seconds have elapsed since our last proc, so Deadly Poison has just ticked off. At this point, Deadly Poison starts up again with probability p each second thereafter; that is, with probability p it occurs in the first second, with probability p*q in the second, and so on. Thus, the expected time until the stack starts again is the sum of the infinite series p + 2pq + 3pq^2 + .... which is easily shown to be equal to 1/p. Hence, the average downtime between the end of the last proc and the beginning of the next is 1/p, and the uptime is 1-q^12; hence, to determine X, the average duration of one "cycle" - that is, one uptime period followed by one downtime period - we simply solve q^12 = (1/p)/X, or X = 1/(pq^12)

Next question: how long does it take poison to ramp up? Well, by the above, it's an average of 1/p seconds between procs, so it takes an average of 5/p seconds to stack back up. Thus, out of our cycle of length 1/(pq^12), we spend 1/p time with no poison up, 1/p with one stack on, 1/p with 2 stacks on, and so on. Thus, the total damage *lost* relative to continuous uptime is (5+4+3+2+1) * 1/p in each period of length 1/pq^12. Thus, the average number of stacks up is given by 5 - (15/p)/(1/pq^12) = 5 - 15q^12 = 5 * (1 - 3q^12). Now, in the Rogue Gear Spreadsheet, I have 5 - 3q^12, so it appears that the bug in the gear sheet is that I neglected to distribute the 5 correctly when I entered it into the sheet. I'll make a point to fix that in the next release.

Note that this still isn't a 100% accurate model, since it implicitly assumes that poison always stacks up to 5 before dropping off - which isn't true. This is why, for instance, if you plug p = 0 into the above formula, you find that you average -10 stacks of poison up, which clearly isn't true. But for reasonably high poison application rates - that is, where 5/p is small compared to 1/pq^12, it should be reasonably accurate. But when implementing this in, for instance, a spreadsheet, you probably want to perform a check to verify that the poison application rate is high enough to get good results.

As an additional note: this provides a lower bound for poison uptime; we obtain an easy upper bound via the simple uptime calculation (ignoring ramp-up time). So it is valid to say that N, the average number of stacks up, satisfies 5*(1-3q^12) <= N <= 5*(1-q^12)

Edit: Oh, it also doesn't factor in that uptime periods are at least 12 seconds in length, which skews the probability distributions some. Still, it's not a bad estimate when p is on the order of .2 - which it usually is.

Last edited by Aldriana : 01/09/08 at 2:55 PM.
#884SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Evizer4tor
Many thanks

First and foremost I wanna thanks those before me for the massive work done on our theorycrafting. The post above that explores DP on the spreadsheets while a great read should not be attempted before at least two cups of coffee, as now my head hurts. I've been lurking for months here and, so thanks for all the late night reading and topics to ponder in afternoon traffic.

I don't know everything about everything nor recall (or have likely not read) every single post here. In instances where the killing is fast, be it simple mobs or overload DPS, I use IP both MH and OH. Like running Kara with the group I was recently running with, it made no sense to try to build my 5 stack and then sustain that for a certain time to make DP an effective/superior substitute for IP.

I like numbers, am not NEAR the math head that some of the big guns are here. Is there a simple formula or model to determine approximate length where DP comes into it's own? I am thinking that I can probably extrapolate it from the aforementioned poison post, but I've yet finished my first cup of coffee.

If it is simple and I just can't spy it, forgive the silly questions and thanks again for making my rogue an effin' blast to tinker with!
#885SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Left
I'm pretty sure I followed all that, with the exception of the simplifications of the series (which I am totally willing to trust you on). Where I got hung up was the 3*q^12, which you are saying should be 15*q^12. When it was just the 3*q^12, it basically looked like the assumption was that the poison was dealing 3/5 less DPS for the times it was down, since downtime is given by 1*q^12. Following your math, it makes more sense now.

It certainly seems a good way to model it without being too overly complicated. The factor of 5 difference in the "average stacks" formula will reduce poison DPS by a good bit, which makes sense intuitively to me.

I was getting hung up on the 12 second thing just as you are... since the periods have to be at least 12 seconds long I didn't know how to approach it. However, as long as the average cycle length 1/(pq^12) is fairly long, then few enough "dropoffs" will fall way low on the probability curve and it looks like a good model.

I like it.

Now, models are great, but in engineering we always put real numbers back in to the model to verify that we get results that make sense. So, let's do that for a typical rogue. For example, me (as I'm mid-geared). I have, unbuffed, +18.33% hit from gear, +5% hit from talents, and +10 expertise (-2.5% dodge) from talents. Thus my hit table for my offhand looks like:

Miss + Dodge = (6.3 + 28) - (18.33 + 5 + 2.5) = 8.47%
Hit + Crit = 91.53%

Offhand weapon speed is 1.5, increased by Haste to 1.47, increased by SnD to 1.13.

DP Proc Chance = 30% (no talents in improved)

p = (1 - 0.17) * (0.3) * (0.9153/1.13) ~= 0.202

This is in the range where we thought the prediction should be valid. Good.

q = 1-p = 798

Average downtime = 1/p = 4.95 sec
Average uptime = 1/(pq^12) = 74.23 sec
Cycle time = 4.95 + 74.23 = 79.18 sec ~= 1 min 19 sec

Hmm, average uptime seems a bit low. Does DP really fall off so much? That surprises me.

Average stacks = 5 - 15*q^12 = 4.00

This seems to be a reasonable result. I can try to check my poison DPS on some fights to see if I'm hitting more or less 4 stacks on average. Should help verify the model. Others could try their own numbers and compare to WWS or w/e as well.

Interesting; I'm only getting an average of 4 stacks on the target due to DP falling off. This begs the question, how does it compare to IP?

DP -> 4.00 stacks * 180/12 = 60 DPS
IP -> ((146 + 194)/2) * (1 - 0.17) * (0.2) * (0.9153/1.13) = 22.85 DPS

DP is still clearly better.

What about Improved Poisons vs. Vile Poisons? Well, with 5/5 Vile you see a 20% increase. With 5/5 Improved?

p = (1 - 0.17) * (0.4) * (0.9153/1.13) ~= 0.269
q = 0.731
Avg. stacks = 5 - 15*q^12 = 4.65

4.65 / 4.00 ~= 1.163, or a 16.3% DPS increase. (Also, it gives a smoother uptime and faster ramp-ups after stopped DPS.)

So, comparable, with Vile being a little better for static fights and improved possibly being better for dynamic ones.
#886SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2glowacks
Markov chains: might one work?

Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
So, first off, let me say that the Deadly Poison model in the Rogue Gear Spreadsheet is not what it might be. It is, in fact, probably one of the least accurate aspects of the sheet. It's designed as a reasonable ballpark figure and not a whole lot more - basically because actually computing uptime is rather hard (by which I mean: I don't know how to do it off the top of my head, and haven't gotten around to looking it up). So it's entirely possible that I'm over or underestimating the value of some of the poison talents in the sheet. However, for the sake of argument, lets look at the numbers for a minute.
Yes, calculating DP damage is extremely hard. There is actually very little in terms of simple models that you can use beyond just running a simulation. The problems are due to the damage being dealt every three seconds and not caring about what happens other times, a varying number of attacks each three seconds, and another very interesting feature for which I have to make a few assumptions clear before stating:

1) Three seconds after the first application, and every three seconds there after, damage will be done based on the number of doses on at that time.
2) The stack will fall off if it does damage 4 times without being refreshed in the meantime.

These are based on observations I made as a rogue where a stack will fall off before the Blizzard UI says it should, and always right as it ticks with less than 3 seconds left. This means that the probability of the stack falling off is greater when it is refreshed closer to the time it ticks. Given that we're looking to get a good grasp at this probability, this feature puts a whole new twist into it. The idea though is to hope that things average out in the long run and probabilities calculated will tend towards the actual events in the limiting case. The question just becomes how to model it effectively, as you can't just look a the probability of it not being refreshed in 12 seconds.

I'm just starting a class in stochastic processes, where stochastic is a fancy word meaning "random". I anticipate this class will introduce tools for modeling behaviors very similar to DP. However, I would have thought that given its a low-level grad course, that *someone* on these boards would have already taken courses in this sort of thing.

The first topic discussed in the class is something called Markov chains, which I first encountered in middle school when looking at probabilities of landing on spaces on a Monopoly board. They model stochastic processes where the probability of transitions from one state to another are solely determined by the current state. Under this assumption, it is very easy to determine long term behavior of the system and relative time spent in each state. Consider the following states:

1: No DP
2: 1 DP dose, has ticked 0 times since last refresh.
3: 1 DP dose, has ticked 1 time.
4: 1 DP dose, has ticked 2 times.
5: 1 DP dose, has ticked 3 times.
6-9: 2 DP dose, has ticked 0-3 times.
10-13: 3, etc
14-17: 4, etc
18-21: 5, etc

Recall that if it ticks 4 times without being refreshed it will fall off regardless if that's 9.1s or 11.9s since last application.

Every 3 seconds the state changes (or in the case of states 1 and 18, maybe not). State 1 goes to state 2 with probability p, where p is the chance for exactly one poison proc, it goes to state 6 with chance q, where q is the chance for exactly 2 procs, and so on. States 1, 5, 9, 13, 17, and 21 go to State 1 if no poison procs occur, while in any other state it jumps to the next higher numbered state in that case.

If we're truly modeling long-term behavior we can average out SnD downtime/BF/Drums/etc into weapon speed and thus poison procs so that the probabilities are constant. One problem with this model is that in reality when DP falls off the 3-second timer resets when DP is reapplied (by assumption - correct me if I'm wrong), while this model assumes the state changes every 3 seconds. There might be a way around this, but I haven't thought hard about it yet.

One can form a transition matrix where the entries correspond to the probabilities of going from one state to the next, and the long term behavior can be found by taking the matrix and multiplying it by itself until the entries either become stable or change periodically. I'm assuming that the former will happen in this case. This is a rather naive approach to using the transition matrix to determine long term behavior, and there may be better ways of solving them. However, it is something that can be programmed for a computer to do without thinking and thus possibly calculate the behavior based on changing variables as spreadsheets do currently.

It looks to be quite a daunting task to figure out each of the necessary probabilities in general form and I'm not all that swift with spreadsheets. I'll try to think about the situation more and chime in when I figure stuff out.
#887SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
 Aldriana
Originally Posted by Left View Post
Now, models are great, but in engineering we always put real numbers back in to the model to verify that we get results that make sense. So, let's do that for a typical rogue. For example, me (as I'm mid-geared). I have, unbuffed, +18.33% hit from gear, +5% hit from talents, and +10 expertise (-2.5% dodge) from talents. Thus my hit table for my offhand looks like:

Miss + Dodge = (6.3 + 28) - (18.33 + 5 + 2.5) = 8.47%
Hit + Crit = 91.53%

Offhand weapon speed is 1.5, increased by Haste to 1.47, increased by SnD to 1.13.

DP Proc Chance = 30% (no talents in improved)

p = (1 - 0.17) * (0.3) * (0.9153/1.13) ~= 0.202

This is in the range where we thought the prediction should be valid. Good.

q = 1-p = 798

Average downtime = 1/p = 4.95 sec
Average uptime = 1/(pq^12) = 74.23 sec
Cycle time = 4.95 + 74.23 = 79.18 sec ~= 1 min 19 sec

Hmm, average uptime seems a bit low. Does DP really fall off so much? That surprises me.

Average stacks = 5 - 15*q^12 = 4.00
In the interest of checking the accuracy of all this, I wrote a little program to simulate what we're modeling - that is, that every 1 second there is a chance p that poison is applied, which stacks to 5 and refreshes, and then totals up the average poison level across the duration of the test - specifically, the following Python program:

from random import random

testLen = 100000000

curTime = 0

p = .202
q = 1 - p

stacks = 0
lastProc = 0

totalStacks = 0

while curTime < testLen:
    if random() < p:
        stacks = stacks + 1
        if stacks > 5:
            stacks = 5
        lastProc = curTime
    else:
        if curTime - lastProc == 12:
            stacks = 0
        
    totalStacks = totalStacks + stacks
    curTime = curTime + 1
    
totalStacks += 0.0
print totalStacks/testLen
I ran 2 trials of 100 million seconds of simulated poison application each; the average number of stacks applied was 4.0847 in the first test and 4.0858 for the second. So, suffice it to say, the average number of stacks for your number is about 4.085 in our model, versus 4.00 predicted by my estimate. So, we're about 2% low, which is probably adequate for the moment.

Then, of course, there's the issue that our model doesn't exactly reflect reality; in reality, the chance to apply does not occur once a second, but once per attack (which can be either over or under once per second, can change over time, etc.), and the fact that Deadly Poison doesn't tick 12 times spaced one second apart, but 4 times spaced 3 seconds apart. On the whole, though, these strike me as unlikely to significantly change the overall answer, so I'm content with this estimate for spreadsheet purposes.

Oh, and re: Glowacks. You're right, we are making many simplifying assumptions in these models which may or may not affect the accuracy of the estimates; however, solving the problem analytically is prohibitively hard. One could solve this average stacks problem reasonably easy if one could diagonalize the 15x15 transition matrix; but computing Eigenvalues of a 15x15 matrix is pretty hard, and, in particular, does not have any closed-form solution. So the trick is not so much knowing the math to write down the exact formula for the answer, but finding a reasonably good estimate that can be included in spreadsheets for purposes of damage estimation. I make no claims that our simplifying assumptions will be exact - but as long as they're close, that's enough.

Last edited by Aldriana : 01/09/08 at 5:38 PM.
#888SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2glowacks
I'm not going to suggest that using an higher level analytical model is at all "easier" or provides anything resembling a "better" picture because there's still a lot of assumptions made that aren't true in practice, but I was hoping that perhaps someone with a bit more background could possibly fill in the holes. However, thinking about the problem has led me to consider the major point I mentioned above that hasn't been addressed by other models: the poison only has to tick 4 times since last application in order to fall off. In the long run this should be approximately every 10.5 seconds, unless there's something going on I'm not considering. This seems to be an accurate simplifying assumption that better connects with reality.
#889SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2adolchristin
I know the Hemo vs. Combat inflection point thread was closed, but I read the 60+ pages and never had the chance to ask this question before the thread was closed, I hope asking it in this thread is appropriate.

I'd like to spec something like Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft just for a change of pace, I've been combat for as long as I've raided and the idea of playing something different seems refreshing.

From the old thread it seemed as if the consensus was that the core DPS talents in sub are Serrated Blade, Hemorrhage, Dirty Deeds and deadliness with the lower tiers being mostly filler. I'll be taking some points in deadliness since the best MH is have is the Big Bad Wolf's Paw. The latest spreadsheet from http://rogue.raidcal.com with the 2.3.3 changes has 11/20/30 slightly higher than 11/21/29 in my gear, but I was wondering if anyone had practical experience from using blade flurry over that last point in deadliness? My intuition tells me that the point in blade flurry will serve me better but it's hard to argue with the spreadsheet.

It's a shame that the old thread devolved into what it did, it was a good read while it was civil.
#890SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Latito
The spreadsheet assumes you are attacking a single target constantly. Blade Flurry certainly has more uses that just boss fights, and any time you hit more than your target, its value goes up a LOT. I would definitely pick up Blade flurry over 2% more AP.
#891SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Ozzmar
From the first page of this thread:

Hemo builds have a large number of optional talents, with mandatory talents being Serrated Blades and Hemorrhage. For Hemo+sword builds, note that one point of Sword Specialization and one point of Weapon Expertise are each superior to one point of Dirty Deeds for sustained DPS. For Hemo+Deadliness builds, Blade Flurry is superior to the fifth point in Deadliness...
One thing you gotta keep in mind is that the spreadsheet models indefinite DPS and puts a static value on each talent. It can't model you Blade Flurrying 2 mobs at once nearly as well as it can model what an additional 2% AP will do for you.

EDIT: Damn you Latito...

Regarding your spec, why 5/5 Opportunity? The additional Garrote damage it provides is pennies, really. Elusiveness, Inititative or Setup would be much better filler talents I would think. But if you're going for 100% raid DPS, then just ignore me.
#892SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
adolchristin
Thanks to both Ozzmar and Latito for the quick response! Sorry about missing the bit at the front of this thread, that'll teach me to read all of the other one and not reread the first page of this one post patch

Originally Posted by Ozzmar View Post
From the first page of this thread:
Regarding your spec, why 5/5 Opportunity? The additional Garrote damage it provides is pennies, really. Elusiveness, Inititative or Setup would be much better filler talents I would think. But if you're going for 100% raid DPS, then just ignore me.
Since I took prep to get down to deadliness I figured a 3.5 cooldown on a Vanish which is reset by Prep is kind of overkill and it seems like the old thread indicated that you couldn't really count on Setup for reliable combo points even with Evasion/CloS since it's only a 45% chance. My reasoning was that some degree of predictably increased damage was better from filler than maybe getting a combo point.

Last edited by adolchristin : 01/10/08 at 5:36 PM.
#893SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Macabrie
First-time poster, long-time reader; love your site.


My current spec is 20/41/0, swords, and has been for some time now. I am completely satisfied with my current damage output.

However, I am inquisitive, and after looking at the patch notes for 2.3.2 I thought I would play around with some of the numbers. I posted my results and asked for constructive feedback on the WoW class forums, but received no good discussion from it.

Here is a link to the post:
WoW Forums -> 20/0/41

To sum it up, I wanted to ask you guys to give me some figures as to why applying Shadowstep to a 5cp Rupture 19-20 times over the course of a 10+ minute boss fight (combined with the other raiding benefits of the Subtlety tree with a 20/0/41 build) does not make up for the loss of energy regen and attack speed bonuses found in the combat tree.

I appreciate your input, and look forward to reading what you come up with.

My apologies if this was posted earlier, I looked but was unable to locate any related topic.
#894SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2 Shaker
Well, you're losing 5% to hit, 25% offhand damage (from .5 multiplier to .75), Combat Potency's energy regeneration, agression, surprise attacks, sword spec, and imp slice & dice... to get Serrated Blades, Hemo, Deadliness, Sinister Calling, and Shadowstep.

Rupture just isn't enough of your damage to make that spec viable.

For detailed analysis, check with the spreadsheets linked in the first post.



Also, this thread, near the end, has some discussion of such, though as a warning, it's a real shitstorm (hence why it was locked):

http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t14321-r...nt_inflection/
#895SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2 Aldriana
So, short answer:

A fully talented, mangled rupture does on the order of 2500 damage. Hence, each Shadowstep adds about 500 damage. However, each Shadowstep also costs 10 energy, which is 10 energy no longer being spent on Hemo; assuming a typical hemo hits for around 600 (which is probably actually low), the energy loss also costs you about 150 damage. So the next damage increase of Shadowstep is on the order of 350 damage every 30 seconds - or about 12 DPS.

Now, compare to, say, a single point in dual-wield spec. If you have a 90 DPS OH and 2100 AP (pretty easy for any rogue in a 25 man raid), each point in Dual Wield spec is worth about 18 DPS. So the total contribution of Shadowstep is less than a single point in DW Spec.

Fundamentally: sure, there are some good DPS talents in subtlety. Hemo is a great talent, and Deadliness, Sinister Calling, and Serrated Blades aren't bad. The problem is: there are even more good talents in combat, and the combined damage contribution of Improved Sinister Strike, Precision, Imp SnD, DW Spec, Sword Spec, Weapon Expertise, Blade Flurry, Aggression, Combat Potency, Surprise Attacks, Vitality, and Adrenaline Rush turns out to just be a lot bigger than the damage you can get from the Subtlety talents.
#896SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Macabrie
Well put, and exactly what I was looking for. Thank you both.
#897SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Balkoth
So on the poisons, would it be safe to state the following?

1. Assuming infinite time assuming a completely stationary target with a 1 second weapon, Vile is slightly better.
2. For a varied fight, Improved Poison is better.

And if that's not always true, is there a percentage of needed DPS time on the boss to keep Vile better than Instant?
#898SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Gull
Need Help

Hello, my char. name is Gull.
I have been having problems with my DPS. In Kara my guild just faught Aran and my DPS was only 491. That was with popping my trinkets using blade fury and using the SnD/Rupture combo. I have great gear and great enchants, so my question is does anyone have any advice to help me get my DPS where it needs to be? I'm on WoW armory too if you wanted to look at my gear and talent build......Thank you for any advice

Gull
#899SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2 Aldriana
Your gear looks generally okay, although you could use a new chest at some point. There's certainly better stuff than what you're using, but as I don't know what else you have, it's hard to say whether what you're wearing is right or wrong.

Talentwise, the most immediate issue I see is that you don't have Improved Sinister Strike. You should drop 2 points from Lightning Reflexes and get it, as it's one of the best DPS talents there is for a sword rogue. You're also missing Aggression in combat, which is a definite boost to DPS. Also, it is typically better to take Lethality than the filler in the lower parts of Combat. So, if it were me, in addition to getting Imp SS, I'd probably drop Deflection, Riposte, and Fist Spec (as you're not using fists) and spend those 11 points to get Aggression and Lethality.

For additional details, you can refer to my spec to get an idea of what's more typical for a combat sword rogue.

However, fundamentally, if you're under 500 on Aran, it's usually not entirely a gear + talent problem. Typically, it means you're breaking one of the 7 commandments of rogue DPS. In roughly descending order of importance:

1) Don't die.
2) Don't do anything that risks wiping the raid.
3) Maximize your time on target
4) Don't let your energy cap out.
5) Don't let SnD drop
6) Use one of the spreadsheets to figure out your best cycle; this will usually be the highest rupture uptime cycle that doesn't violate rule 4 or 5.
7) Use your cooldowns.

Without having seen you play, I can't comment on whether or not you're doing these. But if you're not, you should be.
#900SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
leebis
Currently revising...

Last edited by leebis : 01/12/08 at 11:33 AM.
#901SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
 Vulajin
That's an extraordinarily long post you've made to prove that you're an idiot. Your entire math about "only 41 out of 100 swings can crit" is flawed, as you are neglecting the fact that in your own combat table, 1% of all swings will crit whether you have 41% chance to land an attack or 42% chance to land an attack. Adding 1% crit increases the damage of 1% of your attacks by 100%, meaning that no matter how much hit you have, you're adding 100 damage over the course of those 100 swings on average.

The spreadsheets given are not sources for my information, but rather they are referenced in my post and are useful additional tools for rogues to use. This entire forum is my source. I'd recommend you spend a great deal of extra time browsing it before you consider posting again.

Originally Posted by leebis
Vulajin...you seem like a nice guy...sort of
Don't fool yourself.

Last edited by Vulajin : 01/11/08 at 5:26 PM.
#902SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2 Aldriana
Originally Posted by leebis View Post
If your total regular hit/crit % is only 41%, that's only 41 out of 75 swings that you can crit. That means you can only crit, one time, on 54.6% of your crittable swings. 45.3% of the time, after swinging 100 times, you will NOT crit. So your EXPECTED ADDITIONAL crit damage from adding 1% to crit, when you have just the base 41% to hit, will be 54.6 damage, and after RED's +3%, it will be about 56.23.

And now for the amazing part: What if you take away that 1% to crit, and instead add 1% to hit? Remember, because of how Blizzard's attack table works, when you add 1% to hit you must also SUBTRACT 1% to miss (all 4 values must total 100 exactly).

Miss: 33% Glancing: 25% Crit: 0% Hit: 42%

Now you get a full 100 damage added after swinging 100 times, instead of the miniscule 56.23 expected damage added from 1% to crit. With no gear or buffs, adding +1% hit is almost TWICE as powerful as adding +1% crit.
Incorrect. You're right that not all swings can hit; what you're missing is that white attacks work on a one-roll system, not a two roll system. That is, the game doesn't check to see if an attack hits, and then compute whether those 75% of attacks that hit are crits or not; it makes a single roll that is used to check for hits, crits, misses, dodges, parries, glancing... the works. What does this mean? It means that gaining 1% crit means an extra 1% of your total attacks - all 100 of them - will crit. Hence, 1% crit causes 1% of your attacks to do double damage instead of regular damage, while hit causes 1% of your attacks to do regular damage instead of no damage. Hence, neglecting RED for a moment, 1% Crit and 1% Hit have *exactly* the same effect on your white damage.

However, both crit and hit also have additional effects; crit increase your yellow damage, while white does not; but hit generates extra procs (Poisons, WF, Combat Potency, Mongoose, Dragonspine Trophy, etc.) while crit does not. Hence, the true value of crit and hit must these more complex interactions into effect; to do so, we usually use spreadsheets, as doing the napkinmath starts to become unmanagably complex.

So, we've established that adding hit gives you more expected crit damage over time. So, the value of +1% to crit is determined by how much +hit% you already have!
Vulajin...you seem like a nice guy...sort of...but we've concluded now that the static, unchanging values you've given in the "gear selection" section of your original, thread-starting, supposedly definitive post are utterly worthless.
As noted, we haven't, in fact, established that, but you are to some extent correct that the static values in the initial post aren't universally correct; the value of stats *does* depend on the value of other stats, even if it's not for the reason you cite. Which is why, just 2 paragraphs above the table, he specifies the gear and buff level that he used to derive this table. It is not exact for all rogues; however, a little experimentation indicates that it's a reasonable approximation for a wide range of rogues. For instance, my gear level is significantly above that which is used in the table, so my weightings are a bit different; I have 2.27 EAP per Agi instead of 2.21, 2.53 EAP per hit instead of 2.31, .32 EAP per Armor Pen instead of .29, and so on. So if I were to use Vulajin's numbers, I'd get a slightly different answer; on the other hand, those numbers are still within 10%, so a lot of the time I'd get an answer that was close to right anyway.

Fundamentally: it's true that those numbers are not precise for all players. However, they're a reasonably ballpark value for all but the best and worst geared rogues, and thus are a valuable ballpark figure for those people who want to whip out a quick answer. And for those that want a more detailed analysis, Vulajin has provided helpful links to the spreadsheets from which they can get them.

So at some inflection point, for most rogues, they should stop adding hit and start adding crit and attack power only. I'm not sure what that inflection point is for me, but we can be damn sure it only arrives after one accumulates A LOT of hit. Tons. The real pros at Nihilum (that guild whose members are consistently and oh-so-arrogantly derided on these forums) say 290 hit rating or more....sounds plausible.
As has been discussed repeatedly in these forums: playing 60 hours a week when new content comes out does not make you fundamentally more knowledgeable about how to play the class. Hence, while I give all the respect in the world to Nihilum for it's progression, I don't consider them a credible source for theorycrafting based purely on that fact - and given that these forums focus on theorycraft, we neglect their assertions with good reason when they're wrong.

Fundamentally, the notion of getting 1 stat up to a given level before starting to stack another is flawed. Lets say you were at 290 hit, and had the choice of adding 1 hit or 1000 AP. Which is better? Well, obviously the AP. What if you had the choice of adding 50 hit or 1 AP. Which is better? Obviously the hit. My point is that at all levels of gear selection, the absolute value of your current stats is not what you should be basing gear selection on. Instead, one always should look at what you're giving up and what you're getting in exchange. Every time I here someone say "I know item X is better, but I'm going to use item Y because I need the hit" I cringe. If item X is better, it's better, and you should use it! It may be the case that because of your current stats you have low hit... but if you get more damage from continuing to stack AP and crit, then that's what you should do. Hit, Crit, AP - these are all just numbers. What you really want to optomize is DPS; hence, regardless of whether you have 30 hit or 300 hit, you should be selecting the gear that gives the largest possible DPS contribution, regardless of which stats it's coming from.

Conclusion: Your static stat value analysis is no better than shadowpanther's. It seems like you've forgotten about, or worse, never learned at all, the basics of the attack table. Static values for any stat, for any class, are worthless, so please consider revising that section of your post.
You're right, it is no better than Shadowpanther. That's because Shadowpanther uses the same values that Vulajin has posted. And while these static values are not correct for all rogues, that doesn't make them worthless; they're still a useful tool for making rough approximations of gear quality. For items of comparable quality you may need a more detailed analysis than it can provide - which is why we have spreadsheets. But if any rogue, at any gear level compares the T4 helm to the T5 helm to the T6 helm with those numbers, they're going to get the right answer. So from that perspective, they're not useless.

I do admit, however, that it might be worth slipping in an extra sentence or two to clarify that these are estimates, and that more exact values can be found from the spreadsheet.

Regarding the attack table jibe: unless you have discovered something that has eluded the combined efforts of these forums over the past 2+ years (and if you have, please let us know), it is, in fact, you who are unclear on the nature of the attack table; Vulajin is stating the best known results on these topics.

2. (I'm not finished) You have very few sources to back up your claims. If you look up something on wikipedia.org you'll find citations everywhere, and if a citation is missing the editors of the website always note it and sometimes exclaim, for all to see, "The neutrality of this article is questioned! This article needs additional citations for verification! This article may require cleanup to meet Wikipedia's quality standards!" Why not hold yourself to the same standards?
1) We're not Wikipedia
2) The point of this page is to use as a reference. If there were good sources for all this information, this post wouldn't be necessary. So it's an aggregration of wisdom that is sprinkled across hundreds of posts, not all of which are still easily accessible; hence citation, even if it were desirable, is not always possible.
3) He has references at the bottom that describes where he got this information anyway.

Spreadsheets are not a source. Sorry. One of the spreadsheets you cite as a source recommended that I drop my hit from 313 to 240, which had disasterous consquences for my dps (not to mention my gold). Those who read those spreadsheets and allow themselves to be influenced by them do so at thier own peril.
The spreadsheets, if used correctly, represent the best, most accurate summary of theorycraft that this community has been able to put together. If you don't like them, that's fine; however, I fail to see how you can disdain both spreadsheets and static stat weightings in the same post, given that spreadsheets are how you get dynamic stat weightings.

Regardless: if you don't like the spreadsheets for whatever reason, what source would you recommend using instead? They're the best, most accurate, most detailed source of calculations for Rogue DPS that I'm aware of. If you have a better source, by all means, please let us know.

3. I think I speak for many people when I say, what is ~80 (your meta-gem value)? It makes no sense to me, and because it's a static value, it's worthless, not to mention meaningless.
It's an approximation, drawn from the spreadsheets and other calculations. Yes, it's an estimate, and, as a static value it's not 100% accurate. However, it's a reasonably estimate for people seeking a rough value for it's quality.

Long story short: you have some disagreements with Vulajin's points, which is fine. You are, of course, welcome to express any opinion you so desire. Unfortunately, what you're saying is incorrect - or at least, in direct violation of some well-established results - so unless you have evidence indicating that you are correct and the rest of us our wrong, I would appreciate it if you would not state your falsehoods as fact. Thanks.
#903SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Left
Leebis, did you read much of the rest of the thread? I think you think you understand the attack table's implications, but you really don't... especially since there are about a million factors going in to a DPS increase other than just hit vs. crit. Even assuming the simplist case, Vulajin is right in stating that +1% hit and +1% crit do the same thing for white damage. Using your numbers (which I don't even think are correct for glancings anymore)...

34% miss/dodge
25% glancing (0.65 multiplier)
0% crit (2.00 multiplier)
41% hit (1.00 multiplier)

Over 100 hits you do ((25*0.65) + (0*2.00) + (41*1.00))*WeaponDmg = 57.25*WeaponDmg in damage

Adding 1% hit, you do ((25*0.65) + (0*2.00) + (42*1.00))*WeaponDmg = 58.25*WeaponDmg

Adding 1% crit, you do ((25*0.65) + (1*2.00) + (40*1.00))*WeaponDmg = 58.25*WeaponDmg

IE, exactly the same increase.

Also, percent increase in your DPS is actually more than 1% in both cases:

(58.25 - 57.25)/57.25 = 0.0175 = 1.75% increase in white damage

EDIT: Although, he makes a good point in saying that an illustration of the hit table (or a link to one) might help new rogues understand what is actually going on when they attack a mob. It's just that his understanding of the attack table isn't correct.
#904SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2 Shaker
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
...
7 commandments of rogue DPS. In roughly descending order of importance:

1) Don't die.
2) Don't do anything that risks wiping the raid.
3) Maximize your time on target
4) Don't let your energy cap out.
5) Don't let SnD drop
6) Use one of the spreadsheets to figure out your best cycle; this will usually be the highest rupture uptime cycle that doesn't violate rule 4 or 5.
7) Use your cooldowns.
On a similar subject, however, I think this merits being put in the first post, as a "playstyle" guide isn't really included, and this is probably the best simplification that I've seen that accurately describes what you can best do to up your DPS as a rogue from a "while playing" perspective.
#905SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2leebis
Many people think crits can miss.....

[quote=Vulajin;598990]That's an extraordinarily long post you've made to prove that you're an idiot.

And that's an extraordinarily short post you've made to prove that when you're challenged you'll resort to petty, personal attacks, rather than respectful rebuttals (see Aldriana's thoughful response above for an example of a respectful rebuttal). Notice that I haven't insulted you, and you have insulted me.

Vulajin said:
Your entire math about "only 41 out of 100 swings can crit" is flawed
Adding 1% crit increases the damage of 1% of your attacks by 100%, meaning that no matter how much hit you have, you're adding 100 damage over the course of those 100 swings on average.

Wow. Are you saying that crits cannot miss or be dodged? If crits cannot miss or be dodged, then you are correct. If crits CAN miss and be dodged, then I am right. I've always understood that crits can miss. In other words, you can miss AND crit at the same time. But you can't HIT and MISS at the same time. Look at my post again for details (I've tried my best to make it simple, though I fear I have been unable to explain myself in a way that is easy to understand).

If your crits can miss or be dodged, then your expected damage from 1% crit over 100 swings will not equal 200% until your hit and expertise are capped...when you no longer miss. Are we debating whether crits can miss? I hope not.

Aldriana, sure, you're not Wikipedia. But EJ has a lot of respect in the wow community. People believe that you've really done your homework. So you've got to show that. Vulajin's post has the appearance of a definitive summary of the choices every rogue needs to make. And I think he needs more evidence. The fact that the evidence is scattered across these forums should make it very easy for him to link us to that evidence whenever he makes a debatable claim.
#906SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2leebis
On spreadsheets

Yes, spreadsheets are nice, and the people who put the hard work into them should be commended. However, people are fallible. I won't mention any names but someone who designed one of the spreadsheets recently admitted, alarmingly, that they had miscalculated the value of expertise in the spreadsheet (the very same sheet that Vulajin uses as his "reference").
#907SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
 Aldriana
Originally Posted by leebis View Post
Wow. Are you saying that crits cannot miss or be dodged? If crits cannot miss or be dodged, then you are correct. If crits CAN miss and be dodged, then I am right. I've always understood that crits can miss. In other words, you can miss AND crit at the same time. But you can't HIT and MISS at the same time. Look at my post again for details (I've tried my best to make it simple, though I fear I have been unable to explain myself in a way that is easy to understand).
Crits cannot dodge or miss. A single roll is used to determine both hits and crits. Hence, if it falls in the "this attack is a critical strike" range of that roll, it is not in the "this attack misses" or "this attack is dodged" range. We understand what you are trying to argue, and it was a commonly held theory for a time. But over a year and a half ago it was proven incorrect; as far as anyone has ever been able to tell, it works as Vulajin described.

Edit
Just saw your next post, so let me add this:

Regarding your point re: spreadsheets. It's true, they can have mistakes. As you note, I recently found a bug in the value of expertise in mine. Are there other bugs in it? Probably. But at this point it has been around long enough and subject to review by enough different people that I feel reasonably confident that any remaining bugs are relatively minor. For instance, the Expertise bug? It was overestimating the value of Expertise by about 10%. In terms of practical difference - that is, determining the correct ordering of items - this makes precisely no difference whatsoever. There is no item in the game where the value of Expertise used by the 0.9.1 spreadsheet would given an incorrect value by more than 3 AP - which is under the claimed accuracy of the spreadsheet anyway. But using those estimates, you would still correctly conclude that the Vashj belt is the best belt in the game, Brooch of Deftness is utterly useless relative to Choker of Vile Intent, Shoulderpads of the Stranger are good for when you can get them, and so on.

My point? Yes, the spreadsheets can - and do - have mistakes in them. However, because they are also the most focused, compact, direct application of theorycrafting around, they're also the most used, meaning that they are likely to be more accurate than anything else. I am more confident that there are no major bugs in the Rogue Gear Spreadsheet than I am any other piece of code, or estimate, or *anything* else in the game. To be frank: that's the main reason I made it available to people. I wrote it for my own use in the beginning, and the primary reason I cleaned it up and released it to these forums was so other people could look at it, try it, and find any mistakes I may have made. After 6 months of this, I am now reasonably confident that the majority of the mistakes are gone.

Compare this to pretty much any other calculation available for theorycrafting - say, an alternate source for stat comparisons. Well, it's either a) much less sophisticated, and thus less accurate for that reason, or b) comparably sophisticated, and thus just as likely to contain bugs. But if we then have to choose between that program, which is not in wide use, and one of the established spreadsheets, which *is* widely used, which is more likely to have had most of the bugs found and removed?

So, in the end, is the spreadsheet perfect? No. Does it have bugs? Definitely. Even if it didn't have bugs, would it be 100% accurate? Nope. However, even given these flaws, is it still the best source of numerical theorycrafting available? Yes. Flaws or no, it's the best tool we have. So disparage the numbers from it if you like, but, fundamentally, we don't have any better ones - so the numbers from the spreadsheets are the ones we use.

Last edited by Aldriana : 01/12/08 at 3:36 AM.
#908SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Latito
Originally Posted by leebis View Post
Are you saying that crits cannot miss or be dodged?
Yes.

Originally Posted by leebis View Post
If crits cannot miss or be dodged, then you are correct.
Thankyou, we are right. (for auto attacks)

Originally Posted by leebis View Post
If crits CAN miss and be dodged, then I am right.
They cannot, you are wrong. (for auto attacks)

Originally Posted by leebis View Post
I've always understood that crits can miss. In other words, you can miss AND crit at the same time. But you can't HIT and MISS at the same time. Look at my post again for details (I've tried my best to make it simple, though I fear I have been unable to explain myself in a way that is easy to understand).
We understood you, but you were wrong. Do you understand that?

Originally Posted by leebis View Post
Are we debating whether crits can miss? I hope not.
You are attempting to debate this.. and will lose. Simply go to any lvl 70 mob and beat away on him for 5+ minutes. You will note that:
miss = 25 - precision - hitRating/15.77
dodge = ~5
glance = 0 (equal lvl target)
crit = crit shown in character window
hit = whatever is left

Try it.. really. Maybe you'll shut up and stop posting information which goes completely 100% against 2 years worth of combat logs from thousands of players. If it happened to change in patch 2.3.2 and you discovered it - awesome, congrats. But I doubt it.

Originally Posted by leebis View Post
Aldriana, sure, you're not Wikipedia. But EJ has a lot of respect in the wow community. People believe that you've really done your homework. So you've got to show that. Vulajin's post has the appearance of a definitive summary of the choices every rogue needs to make. And I think he needs more evidence. The fact that the evidence is scattered across these forums should make it very easy for him to link us to that evidence whenever he makes a debatable claim.
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
1) We're not Wikipedia
2) The point of this page is to use as a reference. If there were good sources for all this information, this post wouldn't be necessary. So it's an aggregration of wisdom that is sprinkled across hundreds of posts, not all of which are still easily accessible; hence citation, even if it were desirable, is not always possible.
3) He has references at the bottom that describes where he got this information anyway.


Yes, spreadsheets are nice, and the people who put the hard work into them should be commended. However, people are fallible.
Do you have a better resource? ANYTHING done to attempt to model DPS will be done by people. By your statement, nothing would ever be worth using.


Originally Posted by leebis View Post
(see Aldriana's thoughful response above for an example of a respectful rebuttal).
Not everyone has the patience to deal with people who THINK they know everything, yet are quite wrong and themselves have NO PROOF OF ANYTHING.


Originally Posted by leebis View Post
I won't mention any names but someone who designed one of the spreadsheets recently admitted, alarmingly, that they had miscalculated the value of expertise in the spreadsheet (the very same sheet that Vulajin uses as his "reference").
Yes. He typed something wrong, found out within days, alerted people, and fixed it. I think they call that a "Development Cycle". Develop, QA, Bug Fix. Pretty standard stuff. If you dig around, you can find posts of people able to match the spreadsheets predicted DPS within 1-2% on fights like Teron and Morogrim. I'd say its pretty accurate.




Enough of this being polite stuff though.. you are WRONG. This thread is for a collective set of commonly agreed upon information which has been tested and proven to be correct to the best of our knowledge. You, with ZERO evidence, are attempting to state "I always thought it was like this though..". Well news flash, you thought wrong. If you have questions, I'm sure people would be happy to answer. If you want to blatantly state random crap as if it were fact, go to the official blizzard WoW forums. Hell, go look at page 1-2 of the Mutilate thread for an example of someone who posts false information, stated as fact.

This may be the Elitist Jerks forum, but attempting to act all elitist while being wrong just makes you look like an idiot. There are plenty of jerks around here who will point that out. And I for one applaud them.
#909SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Devil Warrior
A great example to show that crits can't miss is to go fight the Banshees in Hyjal, who toss on that lovely curse that decreases your hit chance by an exorbitant amount. You will notice that pretty much EVERY auto-attack hit that hits, will be a crit, and you will have barely any non-crit white hits, if any (depending on your crit rate).
#910SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2leebis
auto-attack crits don't miss

Copied from wowwiki.com:

In June of 2005, a Blizzard representative made the following statement:

"The way WoW calculates crit rate is over ALL attacks. Crit rate is not based on hits only. In other words, if you have a 5% crit rate, that 5% chance includes misses."

Was the "crits can miss" myth born on this day?

Vulajin...my MATH wasn't flawed enough to produce a wrong theory. My assumption that "crits can miss" was flawed. What was also flawed was your ability to figure out exactly how had missed the mark. If crits can miss, then just about everything I said is true. But crits CAN'T miss (I always thought it was a nonsensical idea that one could miss a critical strike, but when I first started playing the game, that's what I read and so I believed it. I think the fact that people miss CB evis all the time added to the confusion.)

I'll say it again for the new players reading this thread and looking for the facts: A MISS AND CRIT CAN'T HAPPEN AT THE SAME TIME.

You can call me an idiot if you like, but the real idiot is the Blizzard rep quoted above.

I still contend that:
1) Vulajin needs more citations.
2) The Gear Selection section needs an overhaul.
3) An attack table with an explanation is needed (or a link to one).
4) Perhaps a "myths and realities" section would be a nice addition. There is A LOT of misinformation out there, things like "there's always a 1% chance to miss!", "mutilate is better", and my favorite, "crits can miss".
#911SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Balkoth
Originally Posted by leebis View Post
You can call me an idiot if you like, but the real idiot is the Blizzard rep quoted above.
No, you're the idiot. Read exactly what he said. Crits are calculated over ALL attacks. That means the listed crit rate is your crit rate among ALL attacks. If you hit 80% of the time and have a 25% crit rate, that means you'll have 55 normal hits and 25 crits, NOT that you'll get 60 hits and 20 crits. You are reading what he said incorrectly and calling him an idiot.
#912SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Dontmindme
Minor correction: I noticed the 2nd Shadowstep talent build example listed only uses 60 points. I'd assume the extra point is going into DW Spec...

As an FYI, I'm using the list of example builds as the default saved talent options in the next version of the DPS spreadsheet. Thanks for the hard work compiling those.
#913SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Spline
Searched the thread, couldn't find any mention of this:

Does Blade Twisting put the Daze debuff on boss mobs and other mobs that can't be slowed? I'm wondering if getting this talent for the purpose of boosting the tank's Heroic Strikes is worth the talent points. Hunters would be grateful, too.
#914SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2saedo
Originally Posted by Spline View Post
Searched the thread, couldn't find any mention of this:

Does Blade Twisting put the Daze debuff on boss mobs and other mobs that can't be slowed? I'm wondering if getting this talent for the purpose of boosting the tank's Heroic Strikes is worth the talent points. Hunters would be grateful, too.
If they're immune to daze, then they won't get the daze debuff.
#915SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2 Vulajin
Originally Posted by Dontmindme View Post
Minor correction: I noticed the 2nd Shadowstep talent build example listed only uses 60 points. I'd assume the extra point is going into DW Spec...

As an FYI, I'm using the list of example builds as the default saved talent options in the next version of the DPS spreadsheet. Thanks for the hard work compiling those.
Correct. This, and several other recently suggested changes/corrections, will be addressed in the next revision of the post, which should be done within the week.
#916SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
Spline
Originally Posted by saedo View Post
If they're immune to daze, then they won't get the daze debuff.
I can't trust that generalization. I've seen the Piercing Howl debuff on daze-immune mobs. I guess I'll have to level up a rogue to find out...

Edit: I had a rogue spec Blade Twisting and attack the Black Drake in Searing Gorge, which is immune to slowing effects.

"Your Dazed failed. Black Drake is immune."

Last edited by Spline : 01/12/08 at 9:15 PM.
#917SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2saedo
Originally Posted by Spline View Post
I can't trust that generalization. I've seen the Piercing Howl debuff on daze-immune mobs. I guess I'll have to level up a rogue to find out...

Edit: I had a rogue spec Blade Twisting and attack the Black Drake in Searing Gorge, which is immune to slowing effects.

"Your Dazed failed. Black Drake is immune."
Well the piercing howl "daze" is a different "daze" from Daze.
#918SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Devil Warrior
I had Blade Twisting for a while for PVP/Soloing purposes, and it doesn't work on pretty much any raid boss.
#919SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2weka
From a Blizzard poster:

Quote from: Hortus
Hemo should be doing less damage in 2.3.2 than in 2.3.0.

Hemorrhage is also normalized based on weapon type and speed so the amount of damage you do with an individual attack will vary depending on the type and speed of the weapon you are using and can not be directly compared to your main hand attacks.


Dagger hemo? Anyone?
#920SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Dontmindme
Originally Posted by weka View Post
From a Blizzard poster:

Quote from: Hortus
Hemo should be doing less damage in 2.3.2 than in 2.3.0.

Hemorrhage is also normalized based on weapon type and speed so the amount of damage you do with an individual attack will vary depending on the type and speed of the weapon you are using and can not be directly compared to your main hand attacks.


Dagger hemo? Anyone?
Problem is that Daggers are normalized to 1.7 and Maces, Fists and Swords to 2.4 which makes Daggers clearly inferior to both. This is nothing new. These changes have been tested on the PTR and both spreadsheets have been modeling them this way since Hemo got nerfed to 110% on the PTR.
#921SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2weka
Originally Posted by Dontmindme View Post
Problem is that Daggers are normalized to 1.7 and Maces, Fists and Swords to 2.4 which makes Daggers clearly inferior to both. This is nothing new. These changes have been tested on the PTR and both spreadsheets have been modeling them this way since Hemo got nerfed to 110% on the PTR.
Ty for info.
#922SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2leebis
In June of 2005, a Blizzard representative made the following statement:

"The way WoW calculates crit rate is over ALL attacks. Crit rate is not based on hits only. In other words, if you have a 5% crit rate, that 5% chance includes misses."

Balkoth said:
No, you're the idiot. Read exactly what he said. That means the listed crit rate is your crit rate among ALL attacks. If you hit 80% of the time and have a 25% crit rate, that means you'll have 55 normal hits and 25 crits, NOT that you'll get 60 hits and 20 crits.

What's idiotic of you is to assume that everyone who reads the Blizzard rep's quote would and should draw exactly the conclusion that you have tried to articulate. A better way to look at it: A Blizzard rep expressed himself poorly/irresponsilbly/lazily (choose one) one day, spawning a myth (crits can miss) that brought on a whole lot of unnecessary confusion. It's likely that, if you didn't know what you know now, you would have drawn the same conclusion from his quote. But with the benefit of some extra knowledge gained from extensive testing, you can now interperet it in an alternative way...and thereby try to convince everyone that you're brighter than everyone else. When in fact, you've just proved that you're not...and that you're probably very insecure.
#923SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2 Aldriana
Um, actually, I think that the Blizzard quote says pretty clearly that crit chance is out of all attacks, not out of all hits, meaning that crits can't hit. But even assuming for the moment that it is ambiguous and/or wrong, it certainly wouldn't be the first time that a blue post was wrong about such matters (see: the notorious weapon skill quote), nor would it be the first time that Wowwiki had improper information posted. Which is why the purpose of these forums is not to blindly regurgitate blue posts; it's to test and find out what actually happens. Personally, I put roughly no stock whatsoever in anything quoted from an outside source - Blizzard or not - until it's been tested. Hence, quoting blue posts around here will get you nowhere in terms of convincing people that you're write (or not) unless you have evidence backing up your claims - which you don't, because you're wrong.

Also, I'd like to point out that just because someone disagrees with you or has a different opinion, doesn't meant they are "idiotic" or "insecure" - it means that they have a different opinion. So it would be appreciated by all here present if you could put forward your theories without being tremendously insulting about it. The reason why people have been dismissive and somewhat rude towards you is that you've been dismissive and somewhat rude to them, with the added disadvantage of also being wrong.
#924SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2 Shalas
In context, that statement is completly unabiguous. At the time, DamageMeters/Recap calcuated crit as a percetage of hits, instead of swings. As a result, people were seeing significantly higher crits rates than expected. Far from spawning the myth that crits can miss, that post is what first told us that they can't, and until then it was assumed that all attacks were two (or possibly even more) rolls. The fact that it could be misunderstood now is somewhat irrelevant, as assuming that anything from over two years ago is accurate is incredibly foolish with how much the game mechanics have changed.
#925SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2hannigaholic
The simple fact that discussions like this exist shows that the blue quote can be interpreted in different ways. Add to that the fact that other blue posts have contained information that is simply wrong (Crezax's post on Weapon Skill I think it was, for example) and it's enough in my mind to never take them at face value anyway, no matter how clear they appear to be.

Testing here has shown that white attacks use a 1-roll system. That's better than any amount of blue posts to me.
#926SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Balkoth
So...back to the poisons for a moment. If I interpreted your results correctly, the average value of Deadly Poison is a four stack because when it falls off, it takes a bit to restack. You also said that Improved Poisons was likely to be better than Vile Poisons for a movement oriented fight. Looking at t4 and beyond content, let's see what fights rogues need to stop DPSing on regularly and which make it likely for a stack to fall off

Karazhan
Moroes: Vanish
Wizard of Oz: Different mobs to kill
Illhoof: Sacrifices and the little imp (assuming you kill it)
Prince: Enfeeble
Nightbane: Air Phases

Gruul's Lair
High King: Different adds, Maulgar's Whirlwind
Gruul: Ground Slam

Magtheridon's Lair
Magtheridon: Different Channelers, Earthquake

Serpentshrine Cavern
Lurker: Submerges
Leotheras: Whirlwinds, phase shifts, inner demons
Fathom Lord: Different adds

Tempest Keep
Al'ar: Meteors (Dive Bombs)
Solarian: Phase changes
Kael'Thas: A bunch early on and Gravity Lapse. Also, can poison be applied through his force shield?

Hyjal Summit
Azgalor: Rain of Fire
Archimonde: Doomfire, Fear, and Air Burst

Black Temple
Supremus: Phase 2 (aka melee only get 1 minute of DPS typically every 2 minutes)
Shade of Akama: Different Channelers, less than 1 minute to kill the shade

The rest seem to be fairly melee friendly in terms of extended periods of DPS when poison procs matter. However, would the fairly large number of fights where this occurs make Improved Poisons better in general? And if so, can the talent builds in the first post be updated appropriately?
#927SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2 Aldriana
Well, lets look at IP versus VP for a moment. Note that this is rather dependent on gear (and in particular, the speed of your OH) - but for me (255 hit, 16 expertise, 1.4 speed OH, 58 haste rating, faster SnD from 2/5 T6), this is what I get:

DPS with no poison talents: 1574.13
DPS with one point of IP: 1575.83
DPS with one point of VP: 1576.9

So a point in Improved Poisons gives 1.7 DPS, and a point in Vile Poisons gives 2.77 DPS. So, for me, on sustained fights, Vile Poison is clearly superior.

So, the next question is: how often must interruptions occur before Vile catches up? Well, I showed in my last poison post that the average time to stack up from 0 to full is 5/p seconds, during which time you 40% of your usual damage ( as (0+1+2+3+4)/5 = 2) Hence, each forced interruption (such as shatter) costs you about 3/p second-stacks of poison. For my gear with no Imp Poisons, p = .2508; with 1/5 Imp Poisons, it's .2676. Hence, damage loss for 1/5 Imp Poisons is 15 * 3/.2676 = 168.2 damage; for 1/5 Vile Poisons, it's 186.6 dmage. Hence, each interruption favors IP by 18.4 damage; since VP usually does an extra 1.07 sustained damage, it then follows that we must have an interruption at least once every 16.3 seconds in order for IP to catch up. In terms of raid fights where this happens, we have... Leo during human phase (but not demon phase)... and that's about it. So on the whole, for me, I would say Vile Poisons is basically always better.

Now, the key thing here is that a lot of rogues are using 1.5 speed OHs, don't have 2/5 T6 for faster SnD, may not have 58 haste rating on OH, etc. So with the lower poison application of such a rogue, it is very likely possible to have this gap get up into the range where you start hitting fights like Al'ar; I ran the numbers with a 1.5 speed OH, no Haste, and no 2/5 T6 and found the crossover time to be 57 seconds. But I suspect fights like FLK - where you're spending 1-2 minute on every target - will always favor VP.

Now, on trash, you probably do get down into the range where IP catches up; and while in general I think it makes more sense to optomize around boss DPS, Hyjal is annoying enough that I could see wanting to improve your trash DPS for it. Hence, there is perhaps some small case to be made around IP for that reason, although even then time on target tends to be 30 seconds or more.

The last consideration, of course, is that there are some fights where one or more rogues needs to use Wound or Mind-Numbing poisons (Magtheridon channelers, for instance; or, in T6 content, Anetheron, Reliquary, Council, and Illidan). For these, IP is clearly superior; hence, if you wind up on poison duty a lot, that could also skew things.

But, as a general rule, I suspect that the number of fights that have enough interruptions that IP catches up to VP is small enough that I would still recommend VP for most rogues; for instance, even if you are in the 57-second crossover case, which is arguably enough to get all 4 of the T6 fights you mention... that's still 4 fights out of 14. Even including the MN/Wound fights, we're still only at about half the fights in T6. So I guess my feeling is that the general recommendation should be to stick with Vile, with perhaps a note indicating the circumstances under which one might consider Vile instead (slow OH, few haste effects, etc.).
#928SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2CrayonOfDoom
I've had a bit of arguments about this, but on the main post, it shows fist/sword and sword/sword specs as equal (-- it says). Yet further down the page, it shows how stats effect particular builds, and fist/sword has lower numbers. So are they really equal? Would a rogue in T5 gear w/ the Fist off alar do the same damage with the sword off tidewalker?
#929SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2 Vulajin
Originally Posted by CrayonOfDoom View Post
I've had a bit of arguments about this, but on the main post, it shows fist/sword and sword/sword specs as equal (-- it says). Yet further down the page, it shows how stats effect particular builds, and fist/sword has lower numbers. So are they really equal? Would a rogue in T5 gear w/ the Fist off alar do the same damage with the sword off tidewalker?
Lower EP values for stats do not mean that the build does less DPS. They simply mean that AP has a higher value relative to other stats for a fist/sword build than it does for a sword/sword build.
#930SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2CrayonOfDoom
Originally Posted by Vulajin View Post
Lower EP values for stats do not mean that the build does less DPS. They simply mean that AP has a higher value relative to other stats for a fist/sword build than it does for a sword/sword build.
thanks a ton for clarifying that, i think i understand now!
#931SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Lastembrace
Blood Elf Racial

OK - I've been thinking some about the blood elf racial ability, or rather abilities: Mana Tap and Arcane Torrent. I will be referring to these as MT and AT throughout this post.

First of all, after talking to the other rogues in my guild, I found out one of them didn't even know about MT and was only familiar with AT, where as the other two thought MT was useless cause they assumed it returned only mana and thus was useless to a rogue. So, I shall begin by clarifying exactly what, for a rogue, these skills do:

Mana Tap (MT): 30yd Range, Instant, 30 Second CD - Reduces target's mana by 120 and charges you with Arcane energy for 10 min. This effect stacks up to 3 times.

Arcane Torrent (AT): Instant, 2 Min CD - Silence all enemies within 8 yards for 2 sec. In addition, you gain 10 Energy for each Mana Tap charge currently affecting you.

Note: The last part is in bold as this is the general focus of my post.

Essentially, versus mobs with mana (as MT does not work versus mobs with no mana), by fully utilising these abilities as often as possible you stand to gain 30 Energy per 2 minutes. Obviously at first this doesn't sound like very much and it isn't, but since this thread is pretty much all about min/maxing I figured any dps gain (assuming it is a dps gain) is worth it in most circumstances.

To determine exactly how much dps you gain from doing this, using as simple numbers as possible, I envisaged a roughly 10 minute fight. Given the 30 second cooldown of MT, it will take 90 seconds just to get the full stack (assuming no resists, I'll get to this later) meaning in a 10 minute fight it's likely you will get the opportunity to use 4 fully stacked AT's for a return of 120 energy, or 3 Sinister strikes. Using my own average hits (1000+ non crit, 2200+ crit) and a base crit chance of 33% for simplicity, this equates to roughly 4.2k damage over the course of the 10 minutes, or as far as I can work out about 7dps. Forgive me if my numbers are totally off, it's late here in Europe.

So my first question to you guys is whether in your opinions 7dps is worth looking into this further?

There's definitely a lot more to this than meets the eye though. One thing that makes me think this is useless is that I'm fairly sure both abilities count as arcane damage and thus would use spell hit to determine resists, and I would assume boss level mobs therefore to resist a lot of both the mana tap's and arcane torrents making it all rather pointless.

I also thought in regards to how it could be worth a lot more than 7dps if it works at least somewhat consistently and is used in the right circumstances. Many boss fights force you out of combat for various lengths of time and this can really screw up your cycle if your energy caps out. If you had 3 MT charges when you run back in you can squeeze in 5 combo points in at least 2 seconds less by using AT at the right time. Or if Ruthlessness/Relentless strikes doesn't proc it could save your snd from dropping off for a second or two if your cycle is really tight.

As I said there's obviously more to using these skills than it would first seem, and I haven't really seen it discussed much, at least from a rogue's POV before so I figured I'd look into it. Do any of you have any opinions or experience testing this?
#932SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2 Vulajin
To be honest, I usually just pretty much forget Blood Elf rogues exist (who wouldn't), so I've never actually looked at the ability in too much detail. That said, since it's essentially similar in nature to Adrenaline Rush, let's compare it directly to that: 30 energy every 2 minutes versus 150 energy every 5 minutes; or 15 energy per minute versus 30 energy per minute. Thus, Arcane Torrent is essentially half an Adrenaline Rush.

Of course, there's slightly more to it than that. The way Adrenaline Rush is usually used allows you to get an entire extra finisher sequence within your cycle (for most sword builds, you can manage 5e pretty safely during an AR without Slice dropping, particularly if you synchronize it with other cooldowns). Arcane Torrent will let you get maybe a free Sinister Strike, saving you in a circumstance where maybe you didn't get Ruthlessness procs and you're going to lose your Slice without it. So it's a different benefit, but it's actually slightly more valuable in its own way. I'd say rating it as half of Adrenaline Rush is pretty fair.

The real question is, what bosses actually have mana and aren't immune to Mana Tap? I don't usually pay attention to this, so hopefully some Blood Elf rogue can help us out with a list of mana-having bosses here.

(edit) Quick note, yeah, you'll probably have a lot of Mana Tap resists. However, Arcane Torrent resists don't matter (and most bosses will be immune anyway), because the energy is restored regardless of the silence effect.
#933SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2 Aldriana
It might be noted that as of 0.9, the Rogue Gear Spreadsheet actually does model all horde racials, including Mana Tap, and under the assumption that you can get a fully charged AT every 2 minutes against most bosses, it is arguably the best horde racial; the troll racial is better on fights where you regularly take damage and can thus get more than a 10% speed increase, the orc racial is better on fights where you don't take much damage so can use it without fear of the healing buff, and the UD racial is better on fights where you get feared/otherwise disabled. But as a general rule, I think the BE racial is perhaps the most broadly applicable, and is basically a close second even under the best possible scenarios for each of the other classes. Thus, there is a real case to be made that BE is the *best* race to play as a PvE horde rogue.

That said: the differences we're looking at are on the order of half of a percent, so if you PvP at all you'll probably be happier as UD, and regardless of that fact there's not a lot of motivation not to just pick your favorite class. But if you are truly optimizing for PvE from level 1, there is a very strong argument that BE is the way to go.
#934SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
Lastembrace
Heh, I admit there aren't too many of us, especially in the endgame as we're generally overshadowed by all our paladin brothers/sisters so I can't really blame you for forgetting we exist.

In regards to which bosses actually have mana and are succeptible to mana tap, that's a very good question. I only really started thinking about this tonight and we already cleared BT, MH and even TK this week to attune a new trial so I doubt I'll have a chance to test any of this for real until wednesday (instances reset on wednesday in EU, I think it's tuesday on US realms if I'm not mistaken, so any american belf's out there that could lend a hand with some preliminary tests?).

Another thing that was on my mind would be how to make sure you use mana tap as efficiently i.e. as often as possible and my initial instinct was to try and weave it into a SS macro. Since any sort of castsequence macro seems to get stuck on mana tap if your trying to use it on someone without mana or if it's on CD, the only way I could think of doing it was by using a castrandom macro, which basically results in a lot of "error noises" (not the speech) which is kind of irritating though I guess I could live with it if there's no better way.

I'd be the first to admit that I'm not great with macros, can anyone think of a way to do this other than what I've already suggested?

EDIT: I was personally very skeptical as to whether I was on to something here or if it was a total waste of time, now that two people (Aldriana, Vulajin) whom I respect a great deal on these forums have suggested that I may be on to something I feel much more inclined to test this, so thank you for the motivation :>

Last edited by Lastembrace : 01/14/08 at 10:32 PM.
#935SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2 Scheme
Does Mana Tap trigger the ability GCD?
#936SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2bamsemats
Shadowstep raiding DPS

After alot of thought and minor calculations (math ain't really my thing...) I decided to try out 0/20/41 for raid purposes. I focused my efforts on getting alot of AP and hit rating (with food buff I'm at 344 hit rating, fully buffed (no warrior shout) I was around 2.6k AP) to maximize my white dps and my rupture DPS... I made my circles: 1cp SnD - 5cp Rupture - 2cp SnD - 5cp Rupture and so on.

My average dps was very close to the DPS I normally have with combat swords, but the big difference I saw and felt was that my white dps went from 60% to 70% of my total dps, I werent relying on any CDs to boost my DPS (no AR etc.)
For example, on Kael'Thas my ruptures did 5464 dmg... I dont know if anyone ever could say that their eviscerate standards at 5.5k... =)

I didnt really capture any WWS or something like that, I just wanted to make a footnote here that the statement that shadowstep would produce 12% less dps than combat swords in average is quite wrong.
#937SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Balkoth
Originally Posted by bamsemats View Post
I didnt really capture any WWS or something like that, I just wanted to make a footnote here that the statement that shadowstep would produce 12% less dps than combat swords in average is quite wrong.
Then, quite frankly, please don't post here. You're losing 5% crit, sword spec, Blade Flurry, 10 expertise, Relentless Strikes, Ruthlessness, Aggression, 16%ish Sinister Strike damage, and Combat Potency. In return, you get Hemo, 10% attack power, 15% agility, and 20% more damage on one Rupture per 30 seconds.

The people here have done the math and calculated the various cycles. They've spent hours determining proc rates and values of talents. For you to come here and claim (without any math beyond a rupture damage) that you know better...

P.S. Combat has two cooldowns for DPS: Adrenaline Rush and Blade Flurry. However, as Sub you're using a cooldown for DPS as well: Shadowstep.

P.P.S. I don't see your point about Eviscerates.

P.P.P.S. Being "very close" to your previous DPS doesn't mean much. Many people would saying being within 12% DPS would be "very close," but obviously you think otherwise.
#938SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2 Scheme
Originally Posted by bamsemats View Post
I didnt really capture any WWS or something like that, I just wanted to make a footnote here that the statement that shadowstep would produce 12% less dps than combat swords in average is quite wrong.
If you're going to say something like this, you need to back it up with actual evidence and the math to support it. Saying "I'm bad at math but this is what I feel, based on very limited testing, and with no logs or parses to back me up" isn't going to cut it.
#939SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Lastembrace
Originally Posted by Scheme View Post
Does Mana Tap trigger the ability GCD?
Yes, both Mana Tap and Arcane Torrent trigger the GCD, however I'm unsure as to whether it's a standard 1.5 second GCD or 1 second like most other rogue abilities, not that it makes a big difference however.

Originally Posted by Vulajin View Post
Quick note, yeah, you'll probably have a lot of Mana Tap resists. However, Arcane Torrent resists don't matter (and most bosses will be immune anyway), because the energy is restored regardless of the silence effect.
I admit I never thought of the fact that Arcane Torrent resists are irrelevant, this means obviously you only have to worry about Mana Tap. Given that MT has a 30 second cooldown and AT has 2 minutes, you should always be able to fit in 4 MT's per AT. I also admit I've never played a caster class so spell hit and the average spell resist of a boss mob is beyond me, all I know is that with spells there is always a minimum 1% resist chance - but I would find it hard to believe that the typical resist rate with no spell hit is anywhere in the region of 25%, so on average you should be able to get your 3 charges while still using AT every cooldown. Hopefully then, the resist side of this is negligent, meaning the biggest factor now is probably what percentage of bosses you can actually use this on.

On with the testing!
#940SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2seminarca
Spell miss chance vs raid bosses is 17% of which 16% can be overcome by gear, leaving the 1% miss chance as you said. Not that I'd go about gathering spell hit gear as a Rogue, but for sure this would be a highly interesting set of tests =p

I don't know how comprehensive WWS search capabilities are, but if would be cool if you could search across their entire database of logs for specific spells.
#941SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2 Shaker
Originally Posted by bamsemats View Post
After alot of thought and minor calculations (math ain't really my thing...) I decided to try out 0/20/41 for raid purposes. I focused my efforts on getting alot of AP and hit rating (with food buff I'm at 344 hit rating, fully buffed (no warrior shout) I was around 2.6k AP) to maximize my white dps and my rupture DPS... I made my circles: 1cp SnD - 5cp Rupture - 2cp SnD - 5cp Rupture and so on.

My average dps was very close to the DPS I normally have with combat swords, but the big difference I saw and felt was that my white dps went from 60% to 70% of my total dps, I werent relying on any CDs to boost my DPS (no AR etc.)
For example, on Kael'Thas my ruptures did 5464 dmg... I dont know if anyone ever could say that their eviscerate standards at 5.5k... =)

I didnt really capture any WWS or something like that, I just wanted to make a footnote here that the statement that shadowstep would produce 12% less dps than combat swords in average is quite wrong.

Yes, it's a canned response - but since it (obviously) bears repeating every few pages....

It should be noted that if the build you're using isn't linked in the first post, it is because it is not that good for PVE dps. I admit that it is possible that we've overlooked a build with synergy that we haven't accounted for, but if that's the case, please provide a WWS of you using such a build, doing great sustained DPS (for this purpose, I'd say > 1k DPS as fully T4 geared, > 1500 DPS fully T5 geared, or > 2000 DPS fully T6 geared), and if we find the results reproducable in the context of the current endgame (i.e. not a 1 trick pony for just one fight), I promise you we'll include it and study it further.
#942SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Busko
i see his point its pointing out yet again that evis is BS skill :P really hope blizz fix that pretty soon

Any way it was not why i wanted to post was wondering on thing from the DPS sheet. When i use this sheet it says my Shadow-walker's Cord is the best belt i can use. Many says Belt of hundred deaths is the best i wonder why. And the next thing can you like convert Haste to hit or have some kind of way to compare it ?
#943SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2coderego
Does anyone have any information about Energy regen mechanics?

Does the rate of regen change based on how low your energy is? I've heard it said "don't let your energy go to 0", but no ones ever told me why.

Appreciate it =)
#944SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Ozzmar
If you just watch your energy for a matter of seconds, you can easily see that it -always- ticks 20 energy every two seconds. The only thing that ever changes this is the talent Adrenaline Rush which makes you tick 40 energy every two seconds throughout the duration.

The reason behind not letting your energy go to 0 may be contextual. In fights like Aran where you need to be ready to Kick at a moment's notice, spamming your CP skill down to 0 energy will be detrimental as it will mean you are setting yourself up to not have any energy to Kick his next spell. That's just one example.

What you are probably going to hear more often is to not let your energy cap out at 100 (or 110 if you're Assassination). If you're doing your best to keep maximum DPS on your target at all times, letting your energy cap out means you have been auto-attacking for too long. It also means you're dangerously close to letting the next 20-energy tick do absolutely nothing for you.
#945SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2coderego
heh, I tend to spam my sin strike too fast which keeps my energy close to 0 unless I have to kick so I guess no worries then.

thanks =).
#946SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2bamsemats
Originally Posted by Balkoth View Post
Then, quite frankly, please don't post here. You're losing 5% crit, sword spec, Blade Flurry, 10 expertise, Relentless Strikes, Ruthlessness, Aggression, 16%ish Sinister Strike damage, and Combat Potency. In return, you get Hemo, 10% attack power, 15% agility, and 20% more damage on one Rupture per 30 seconds.

The people here have done the math and calculated the various cycles. They've spent hours determining proc rates and values of talents. For you to come here and claim (without any math beyond a rupture damage) that you know better...

P.S. Combat has two cooldowns for DPS: Adrenaline Rush and Blade Flurry. However, as Sub you're using a cooldown for DPS as well: Shadowstep.

P.P.S. I don't see your point about Eviscerates.

P.P.P.S. Being "very close" to your previous DPS doesn't mean much. Many people would saying being within 12% DPS would be "very close," but obviously you think otherwise.
Well, it's really funny how alot of people seem to rely alot on Theorycrafting these days. Alot of the time the smallest changes in performance start the biggest arguments, having people test and test in theorycrafting etc. You write in different values into some sheet and see how that calculates your DPS output. Could you honestly say that that is reliable? I highly doubt that for alot of reasons... Mainly, even though WOW is a game built on fixed rules, it has a big "chance" to fail you all the time. Even if you say that something has a certain amount of procc-rate it wont help you with shit unless it actually does procc, what good is combat potency if you're at 100% energy? What good is an extra hit with the sword if your target parries it? What good is it to come down on someone who's just posting his personal observations on a public forum, when all you do is calculate it on a sheet?

All I said was that from testing it (well, ACTUALLY testing it), I found out that shadowstep can do at least as good as a sword combat specc in raids (given that the mob can bleed).
You said I'd have the 30 sec CD from shadowstep to worry about? You obviously didnt read what I said: I circled 2SnD 5Rupture, meaning I have the 5 CPs for rupture every 30 seconds, meaning I never have to wait for a CD. I get to plan out my cycles exactly, without having to redo it if I get alot of potency proccs or something like that, the DPS becomes more stable.

You can sit and say that some people spent alot of time calculating how the dps would differ depending on different speccs etc (and, sure, it does have alot of value in calculating), but what good would these calculations do in a raid compared to personal experience and know-how?

IMHO, putting a label on different speccs to do "about 12% less dps" is just a tad naïve. In the end it comes down to the person behind the rogue, and not the rogue's specc.

For example, you complained about not having crit rating in a raid specc. Why? Critting is getting more dmg for that hit, but I'd gladly change the amount of AP I gained for that 5% crit any day. I gain 15% agility from this specc, too, meaning (with my current gear) I gain about 80 agility, which would give me 2%crit and 80 AP. Would any raid-oriented rogue actually rather take 3% crit over 80ap? I sure wouldnt. Crit doesnt do anything for your proccs, for your rupture dps or for your CP building (except if you raid with Seal Fate). Unbuffed I had about 2k ap, 21% crit and 324 hit rating (hardly above t4 gear), this, in my eyes, is alot better than the 1750 ap and 24% crit I'd have otherwise.

Kings improves your stats by 10%, having more agility boosts the bonus from kings. Improving your AP alot gives and insane dps to your rupture (which you only apply each 18 second, and, with the time you need to get up CPs for SnD, I wouldnt ask to gain CPs any faster than I am.).

In short, you complain about me not making any research for my statements? I did alot of research, mind you, but I didnt waste hour after hour putting it down in a sheet when I could spend my time doing better and more useful things.
You always need proof before you test something?

It was just a footnote, as I said. No need to come down on me for not using a sheet which, obviously, doesnt do the job in the end.
#947SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2bamsemats
Originally Posted by Scheme View Post
If you're going to say something like this, you need to back it up with actual evidence and the math to support it. Saying "I'm bad at math but this is what I feel, based on very limited testing, and with no logs or parses to back me up" isn't going to cut it.
I never said that this would be something anyone else had to try out. I never stated that I had any theorcrafting evidence to back me up, but instead I saw the result in a real raid instead of imagining it on a sheet. Why do you state that I need data to back something up when I'm not making an offensive statement? I've tried something out, and now I gave my opinion about it and also made a notice about something on this forum that I think is incorrect. To say that I would have 12% less dps as shadowstep in comparassion to a combat sword-rogue is not only decieving, it's alot very unclear.

There are alot of things that could go wrong in a raid; The target is not always stable, you're not always able to hit it, it could be immune to poison/bleed, it could debuff you making your do less dps, etc etc... Just making statements like this, and not allowing others to make their own unless they do it by your standards, is just ignorant. Communism works on paper too, I'd think that alot of people would say that the actual thing aint the same.

You can calculate alot on these papers, but you fail to interact it with the human factor and, quite honestly, that's the biggest difference you'll ever find between players.

If you're wondering about me "feeling" better with this specc, what's so wrong about that? I saw that my DPS was solid, as high as it usually is, and it went without mistakes. With a sword combat specc there are alot of things that can go wrong, if you put a piece of your dps on your AR you'd also lose alot of dps if you'd get imobilized, feared, stunned or something like that whilest you have your AR up.

Theorycrafting is good in itself, but you cant rely 100% on it when you want to actually raid yourself. For instance: When looking up the ZA swords and comparing them to MG swords I came up with the result that the ZA swords would be "worth" more and cause higher dps than the MG ones. When I tried it out, guess what? It didnt fall through.
These numbers are all still put together by some people, meaning that these people can make mistakes filling in these numbers. I dont care how carefully you calculate, it's not gonna be as accurate as you may think. Testing it over and over again is the best way to actually see any difference between different gear and / or specc.
#948SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2glowacks
Originally Posted by Ozzmar View Post
If you just watch your energy for a matter of seconds, you can easily see that it -always- ticks 20 energy every two seconds. The only thing that ever changes this is the talent Adrenaline Rush which makes you tick 40 energy every two seconds throughout the duration.

The reason behind not letting your energy go to 0 may be contextual. In fights like Aran where you need to be ready to Kick at a moment's notice, spamming your CP skill down to 0 energy will be detrimental as it will mean you are setting yourself up to not have any energy to Kick his next spell. That's just one example.

What you are probably going to hear more often is to not let your energy cap out at 100 (or 110 if you're Assassination). If you're doing your best to keep maximum DPS on your target at all times, letting your energy cap out means you have been auto-attacking for too long. It also means you're dangerously close to letting the next 20-energy tick do absolutely nothing for you.
This may not be the case any more, but there have definitely been times that I have noticed a gain of 21-22 energy per tick. However, they were both with a druid, and both pre-2.0. In one case I was watching a friend farm in EPL while waiting to get into Naxx, and he had SCT reporting his normal energy gains. They were consistently 21-22. I also remember from playing my own druid with energy numbers displayed that sometimes I would get more than 20 energy in a tick.

In both of these cases, I attributed it to the server being overloaded. You are supposed to regenerate 10 energy per second. My theory was that if the server couldn't keep up with having a regen tick every 2 seconds and was having to delay them, it would still credit you with the appropriate amount of energy if it took 2.1 or 2.2 seconds. Given that I tended to experience the above behavior when the server felt a little more sluggish than normal, and really having no other way to interpret what I saw, I was fairly sure it was a reasonable explanation. And I forgot all about it until I read the last few posts.
#949SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2dinesh
Originally Posted by bamsemats View Post
Theorycrafting is good in itself, but you cant rely 100% on it when you want to actually raid yourself.
There is nothing inherently wrong with this statement, or this feeling, but these are the EJ forums, and theorycrafting is one thing that it is all about. Unsupported "this is how my spec makes me feel" comments do not belong here. Feel free to post them in another forum where they are accepted and encourages.

Testing it over and over again is the best way to actually see any difference between different gear and / or specc.
Yes. Testing it over and over is the best way, providing you capture data to ojectively measure your performance and allow for peer review.

Testing it once, then posting about it without providing any data, especially when it contradicts current best thinking which did spring from data... well, that's just not something we have any interest in wasting time even reading, sorry.
#950SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Ozzmar
You write in different values into some sheet and see how that calculates your DPS output. Could you honestly say that that is reliable?
Yep, let me introduce you to a concept called regression. Maybe you won't see the immediate effects of changing out an AP gem to a Hit gem, or speccing from Combat to some crappy Shadowstep Hemo variant, but a spreadsheet can tell you the differences in an environment unlimited by time and chance.

I highly doubt that for alot of reasons... Mainly, even though WOW is a game built on fixed rules, it has a big "chance" to fail you all the time.
Yep, and that's why we use spreadsheets. They produce technically "infinite" data so that flukes like crit strings, bad dodge strings, etc can be ignored and the real average damage of a spec (and/or gear) can be determined.

Even if you say that something has a certain amount of procc-rate it wont help you with shit unless it actually does procc, what good is combat potency if you're at 100% energy?
If you're at 100 energy, you're a bad rogue. Hanos has a term for you: Unguilded.

What good is an extra hit with the sword if your target parries it?
If you're DPSing in front of the mob, you deserve to be parried and fail as a rogue yet again.

What good is it to come down on someone who's just posting his personal observations on a public forum, when all you do is calculate it on a sheet?
Because your personal observations are based on the very thing you used to try to refute our use of the spreadsheets: chance. Maybe you had good luck with Shadowstep, and that's fine. But coming in here saying that everyone who has ever done any research at all between the two specs is wrong is just plain arrogant. You didn't provide any WWS to back up what you're saying. Odds are if you did, we'd be able to point out why you're seeing such similar results between the two specs.

You observed one thing and held it as gospel to the hundreds of other rogues that come to these forums. You feeling revolutionary yet?

You can sit and say that some people spent alot of time calculating how the dps would differ depending on different speccs etc (and, sure, it does have alot of value in calculating), but what good would these calculations do in a raid compared to personal experience and know-how?
Again, it eliminates flukes and models regressions that real-life testing often can't. Show us a few dozen WWS of your Shadowstep spec doing the same damage as your Combat spec, and maybe people will take you seriously.

IMHO, putting a label on different speccs to do "about 12% less dps" is just a tad naïve. In the end it comes down to the person behind the rogue, and not the rogue's specc.
Playstyle is important, no argument here. Gear is only a part of a rogue's potential. Knowledge of proper DPS cycles, gemming, and speccing are also very important. But that's not your "humble" opinion, that's just common sense.

Unbuffed I had about 2k ap, 21% crit and 324 hit rating (hardly above t4 gear), this, in my eyes, is alot better than the 1750 ap and 24% crit I'd have otherwise.
See, this just shows a gross misunderstanding of talents and goes to show that you're putting way too much stock in your stats. So you got a big shiny AP with a decent hit rating. Nevermind the fact that you gave up undodgable finishers, insane energy regeneration from RS, AR and CP, and the ability to hit several mobs with BF simply so your Rupture can do a little more damage than normal.

In short, you complain about me not making any research for my statements? I did alot of research, mind you, but I didnt waste hour after hour putting it down in a sheet when I could spend my time doing better and more useful things.
Like coming here and telling everyone that chooses to that they're wasting their time?

You always need proof before you test something?
Do you wear your underwear outside of your pants? Testing provides proof; I think you're a little backwards.

It was just a footnote, as I said. No need to come down on me for not using a sheet which, obviously, doesnt do the job in the end.
So, have you ever actually tried it?
#951SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2panny
You didn't mention enough information for your post to be useful at all. You had no Battle Shout? Did you have an Enhancement Shaman? How were you buffed, what debuffs did the boss have? If you're going to make a statement, back it up with evidence or good reasoning. Don't expect your definitive statements about Shadowstep supported solely by an anecdote (without even half the details) not to be questioned.
#952SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2bamsemats
Once again you guys seem to be totally missing the point.

For the shadowstep vs combat sword: I didnt try it once, I doubt that I would have been more lucky just because I specced shadowstep than when I was specced combat swords, why would I have been?

In regards to collecting data, all DMs and WWS showed the difference, what more data is needed?

I said it was only a footnote, it's not supposed to be taken as serious in regards to spreadsheets as previous posts since my observations have been from actual raiding and no theorycrafting (as I've said all the time.). Why are you getting so worked up? I'm stating my observations in order to contradict previous posts regarding shadowstep; If this forum's supposed to help people, I'm here to say that you can do good dps in more than one way. Why be so stuck up on just moving forward along one line when you can explore different possibilities? Here I did so. I wrote what I noticed and then you get insulted by that?

This is not supposed to be a monolog, it's supposed to be a debatorial forum, right? If one guy states that shadowstep would do 12% less dps than another, does that have to be true?

If you want to contradict that the spreadsheet shows this or that: I never mentioned anything about spreadsheet results, I stated what my actual raid dps turned out to show from the speccs.

I thought it'd be quite clear what buffs I'd have if I said I was "raid-buffed without warrior shout", but it's true that that depends on what classes are in my party etc... In my party I (in almost all cases) have enh shaman, warrior, paladin and druid to accompany me. Incidently, in most raids with shadowstep specc I seem to be missing druid in my party though.
Fully raid-buffed includes (dps-increasing buffs); Blessing of Might, Blessing of Kings, MotW, +20 hit-rating food and Flask or Relentless Assault (+120ap) with Deadly Poison on my offhand (WF totem applying to mainhand). When I'm in party with a druid I'd of course also have their leader of the pack buff.


If you are protective of your results from spreadsheets etc, that's fine. I'm not saying that your spreadsheets would show that what I'm saying is accurate, but this is what happens in the game, which is the whole points of this.
My white DPS increased (going from aprox 600 to above 700 dps) and my rupture increased alot in dmg (which is the only finishing move except for SnD that I use).

This is so far what I've noticed from playing around with different speccs. When I decided how to specc I simply tried some things out, and these are my conclusions.

I'm sorry that I wont spend hour after hour on providing proof for you guys. I'm not writing here to prove anyone wrong, I'm simply adding my point of view.

What I'm wondering is why anyone would be questioning my personal observations at all.
I like playing as the underdog, so I have something to chase. With shadowstep alot of people said I'd have trouble keeping up with the dps, and, sure I had trouble considering that rogues with BF would be able to go double dps for 15 seconds every 2 min. I'll keep trying this specc out, tweaking my strategies a bit, and post back with some WWS for "backup".

My overall conclusion so far has been that shadowstep is fun (kinda important to me...^^) and definitely reliable in raids.

TBC.

P.S. Personal insults? What makes you think I'd even care?
#953SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2saedo
Originally Posted by bamsemats View Post
Once again you guys seem to be totally missing the point.

For the shadowstep vs combat sword: I didnt try it once, I doubt that I would have been more lucky just because I specced shadowstep than when I was specced combat swords, why would I have been?

In regards to collecting data, all DMs and WWS showed the difference, what more data is needed?

I said it was only a footnote, it's not supposed to be taken as serious in regards to spreadsheets as previous posts since my observations have been from actual raiding and no theorycrafting (as I've said all the time.). Why are you getting so worked up? I'm stating my observations in order to contradict previous posts regarding shadowstep; If this forum's supposed to help people, I'm here to say that you can do good dps in more than one way. Why be so stuck up on just moving forward along one line when you can explore different possibilities? Here I did so. I wrote what I noticed and then you get insulted by that?

This is not supposed to be a monolog, it's supposed to be a debatorial forum, right? If one guy states that shadowstep would do 12% less dps than another, does that have to be true?

If you want to contradict that the spreadsheet shows this or that: I never mentioned anything about spreadsheet results, I stated what my actual raid dps turned out to show from the speccs.

I thought it'd be quite clear what buffs I'd have if I said I was "raid-buffed without warrior shout", but it's true that that depends on what classes are in my party etc... In my party I (in almost all cases) have enh shaman, warrior, paladin and druid to accompany me. Incidently, in most raids with shadowstep specc I seem to be missing druid in my party though.
Fully raid-buffed includes (dps-increasing buffs); Blessing of Might, Blessing of Kings, MotW, +20 hit-rating food and Flask or Relentless Assault (+120ap) with Deadly Poison on my offhand (WF totem applying to mainhand). When I'm in party with a druid I'd of course also have their leader of the pack buff.


If you are protective of your results from spreadsheets etc, that's fine. I'm not saying that your spreadsheets would show that what I'm saying is accurate, but this is what happens in the game, which is the whole points of this.
My white DPS increased (going from aprox 600 to above 700 dps) and my rupture increased alot in dmg (which is the only finishing move except for SnD that I use).

This is so far what I've noticed from playing around with different speccs. When I decided how to specc I simply tried some things out, and these are my conclusions.

I'm sorry that I wont spend hour after hour on providing proof for you guys. I'm not writing here to prove anyone wrong, I'm simply adding my point of view.

What I'm wondering is why anyone would be questioning my personal observations at all.
I like playing as the underdog, so I have something to chase. With shadowstep alot of people said I'd have trouble keeping up with the dps, and, sure I had trouble considering that rogues with BF would be able to go double dps for 15 seconds every 2 min. I'll keep trying this specc out, tweaking my strategies a bit, and post back with some WWS for "backup".

My overall conclusion so far has been that shadowstep is fun (kinda important to me...^^) and definitely reliable in raids.

TBC.

P.S. Personal insults? What makes you think I'd even care?

Why post in a theorycrafting forum if you're not providing any or asking for any? Since you're unable/refuse to provide any proof to back your statements up, it's been a bunch of pointless posts. We got no idea on your performance as a combat rogue (for all we know could just suck there), no idea how you actually performed as a shadowstep rogue, no idea on the un/lucky streaks you may have obtained, nor any of the buffs that were up (even your buff list was vague, may or may not have a feral druid). Anyways, seems like you wanted a footnote, so from our point of view it'd be like "One shadowstep rogue supposedly managed to come close to his own combat spec a few times in dps". That's it.
#954SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Ozzmar
Bam, you seem to be missing the point of these forums. I'm sorry if anything came off as a personal attack from me, but your post was more than a slap in the face to a lot of people here.

You have claimed that your observation, opinion, experience, etc have given you similar results, but you argued so adamently against the use of spreadsheets and theorycrafting to support yourself. You're trying to elevate your opinion to truth by baselessly discrediting all the work that is done here.

If you want to discuss what you think is most fun, you should probably go elsewhere. If you want to continue discussing your spec and performance here, you might want to change your tone, and actually listen to what the mods tell you:

Originally Posted by Kaubel
Opinions aren't going to fly in the face of actual stats and math and the combined experience of dozens of seasoned raiders. So you're either going to present some hard numbers or you're going to stop posting.
#955SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
Left
Originally Posted by bamsemats View Post
...

In regards to collecting data, all DMs and WWS showed the difference, what more data is needed?

[whole bunch o' crap]

...
If you have a WWS (or multiple WWS's) showing your Shadowstep DPS in a raid setting, please provide them.

If you could also provide your specific gear sets for each WWS then we could plug it all into the sheet and evaluate our models. The models are the best we've got so far and in practice have closely matched actual DPS for many tests, and few people have tried Shadowstep because the model shows it to be inferior.

If you have a WWS to post to show that that isn't the case, please post it so we can evaluate it. I, for one, would spec Shadowstep in a heartbeat if I thought it was competitive... but I have no evidence to prove that it is. All the best theory and all the data we have points to it being significantly behind. If you want to convince people here that it isn't, we're going to have to see some data.

Last edited by Left : 01/15/08 at 2:54 PM. Reason: Clarity
#956SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2bamsemats
Ok, that post was something I wrote in about five minutes, just to throw in a different opinion than the ones stated here. I didnt mean to critizise the work that's been put into theorycrafting (I have read these forums alot myself and taken advice from here). I wanted to show what I noticed while raiding with shadowstep because it made me think, at least. I've always thought of shadowstep kinda like it's written here on the forums, but then I decided to try it out for a change and found it to be alot better than I thought... I tested and tried around for quite some time, and noticed that the increase in dps that I finally saw was alot different from what I've heard and read before regarding shadowstep; I think it needs to be looked at again.

I'll be collecting WWS etc for future data, but it will take some time since I can only raid a few times per week.

AFAIK, the stats on shadowstep, as it's written on the first post in this thread, is quite outdated (I remember reading those details a few months back) so one of the reasons for me to post here would be to update the info about shadowstep and the possibilities for raiding.
#957SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
Ruqas
Originally Posted by bamsemats View Post
Once again you guys seem to be totally missing the point.

For the shadowstep vs combat sword: I didnt try it once, I doubt that I would have been more lucky just because I specced shadowstep than when I was specced combat swords, why would I have been?

In regards to collecting data, all DMs and WWS showed the difference, what more data is needed?

I said it was only a footnote, it's not supposed to be taken as serious in regards to spreadsheets as previous posts since my observations have been from actual raiding and no theorycrafting (as I've said all the time.). Why are you getting so worked up? I'm stating my observations in order to contradict previous posts regarding shadowstep; If this forum's supposed to help people, I'm here to say that you can do good dps in more than one way. Why be so stuck up on just moving forward along one line when you can explore different possibilities? Here I did so. I wrote what I noticed and then you get insulted by that?

This is not supposed to be a monolog, it's supposed to be a debatorial forum, right? If one guy states that shadowstep would do 12% less dps than another, does that have to be true?

If you want to contradict that the spreadsheet shows this or that: I never mentioned anything about spreadsheet results, I stated what my actual raid dps turned out to show from the speccs.

I thought it'd be quite clear what buffs I'd have if I said I was "raid-buffed without warrior shout", but it's true that that depends on what classes are in my party etc... In my party I (in almost all cases) have enh shaman, warrior, paladin and druid to accompany me. Incidently, in most raids with shadowstep specc I seem to be missing druid in my party though.
Fully raid-buffed includes (dps-increasing buffs); Blessing of Might, Blessing of Kings, MotW, +20 hit-rating food and Flask or Relentless Assault (+120ap) with Deadly Poison on my offhand (WF totem applying to mainhand). When I'm in party with a druid I'd of course also have their leader of the pack buff.


If you are protective of your results from spreadsheets etc, that's fine. I'm not saying that your spreadsheets would show that what I'm saying is accurate, but this is what happens in the game, which is the whole points of this.
My white DPS increased (going from aprox 600 to above 700 dps) and my rupture increased alot in dmg (which is the only finishing move except for SnD that I use).

This is so far what I've noticed from playing around with different speccs. When I decided how to specc I simply tried some things out, and these are my conclusions.

I'm sorry that I wont spend hour after hour on providing proof for you guys. I'm not writing here to prove anyone wrong, I'm simply adding my point of view.

What I'm wondering is why anyone would be questioning my personal observations at all.
I like playing as the underdog, so I have something to chase. With shadowstep alot of people said I'd have trouble keeping up with the dps, and, sure I had trouble considering that rogues with BF would be able to go double dps for 15 seconds every 2 min. I'll keep trying this specc out, tweaking my strategies a bit, and post back with some WWS for "backup".

My overall conclusion so far has been that shadowstep is fun (kinda important to me...^^) and definitely reliable in raids.

TBC.

P.S. Personal insults? What makes you think I'd even care?
Your point as I see it is that your personal experience and wholly unreliable opinion should trump or prove a flaw in the mathematically proved and fundamentally sound spreadsheets designed to model real-average DPS of specific gear and talents.

In regards to your failure to display the collected data, stop opinionating (and that means don't reply to this post) UNTIL you have displayed this data for the scrupulous analysis of more knowledgable and seasoned raiders.

Theorycrafting is just another word for science applied to a game that so happens to be called World of Warcraft. Though, it is true that theories are meant to be proven wrong in some cases, people here do it with confidence because math is infallible even if it only accounts for averages (humans, however, are, which causes the problems with spreadsheets in the end).

This hasn't been a monologue either. Read the many posts in reply to yours. That's a debate.

It may not have to be true, but it should be disproved in the same way it was proved in the first place (i.e. hard numbers).

This is not what happens in the game. This is what happened for you. Something is different for you (whether it be that you did something wrong or we need more data) because the numbers have been tried, and nothing can change that.

Your point of view doesn't help anyone or anything. What would help is if you were trying to disprove something, and you are. However, you seem to refuse to go about it in the proper manner.

Nobody questions what you saw. We just question how you saw it because we want to see it too. If you missed something, perhaps we can show that to you. Then, you can go on your merry way doing more damage than before. Maybe you might even disprove something. I'm not saying it isn't possible, but that so far, what you have posted, doesn't change a thing.

Edit: Most of this post is redundant after reading one of bamse's replies I missed and Left's reply. I apologize for that.

Last edited by Ruqas : 01/15/08 at 3:07 PM.
#958SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2bamsemats
Left: How would you like me to provide the information on my gear? I assume you could simply check the armory to see what gear I have, but I might be in pvp gear when I log out...
I'll start gathering some WWS stats asap.
#959SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2bamsemats
Ruqas: I'm not trying to prove anything except that shadowstep works better than it looks from the start of this thread. IMO that would be because of lack of information or just because no one's really put an effort into it lately (seeing as shadowstep's been painted as a bad raiding specc, why would they try it out?). I started trying it out of pure spite (as I said, I like playing as the underdog), and found it to be surprisingly effective. I'll try to show some WWS from raids in the upcoming days, though it may take some time depending on raidschedule.
#960SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Ozzmar
One thing you should keep in mind is that the % values on this first page are based on that spreadsheet, where all things are equal and infinite. In an average boss fight, you might not see that 12% difference between Shadowstep and Combat simply because of the fallibility of human play, flukes in chance, etc.

The first post of this thread is right on, but you have to read it in the right context. Combat Swords is 2-3% better than Combat Maces. Don't turn that into "Combat Maces sucks".
#961SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
 Shaker
Originally Posted by bamsemats View Post
In regards to collecting data, all DMs and WWS showed the difference, what more data is needed?
Because you didn't even get it the first time... I will quote AGAIN...

It should be noted that if the build you're using isn't linked in the first post, it is because it is not that good for PVE dps. I admit that it is possible that we've overlooked a build with synergy that we haven't accounted for, but if that's the case, please provide a WWS of you using such a build, doing great sustained DPS (for this purpose, I'd say > 1k DPS as fully T4 geared, > 1500 DPS fully T5 geared, or > 2000 DPS fully T6 geared), and if we find the results reproducable in the context of the current endgame (i.e. not a 1 trick pony for just one fight), I promise you we'll include it and study it further.
Please stop posting crap about this build unless it includes the above WWSes. It's not doing anyone any good to talk about it otherwise. At your guild's progression level (early T6), you should easily be able to show me a 1600 DPS+ WWS if it's a competitve build. Do that and we'll start talking. Here's a 0 grave Morogrim kill for me as combat with realistically all the right buffs except CoR and Imp FF, hitting 1555 DPS:

Wow Web Stats


Edit to add: I'm guessing on your gear, since you logged in your PvP gear. But seriously, you're giving us hell for not evaluating something and not taking you seriously WHEN YOU GIVE US NO REASON TO DO SO. Information. Make with more of it. It's not like most of us haven't spec'd Shadowstep for shits and giggles on a vacation week or for a farm night or something. We've seen it do less DPS. I fully admit we may be missing something, but it cannot be figured out by people coming here and saying "I feel like this is better".

Last edited by Shaker : 01/15/08 at 3:47 PM.
#962SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2 Aldriana
Originally Posted by bamsemats View Post
Ruqas: I'm not trying to prove anything except that shadowstep works better than it looks from the start of this thread. IMO that would be because of lack of information or just because no one's really put an effort into it lately (seeing as shadowstep's been painted as a bad raiding specc, why would they try it out?). I started trying it out of pure spite (as I said, I like playing as the underdog), and found it to be surprisingly effective. I'll try to show some WWS from raids in the upcoming days, though it may take some time depending on raidschedule.
To be fair: there has actually quite a bit of examination of Shadowstep lately. The last few pages of the now-locked (and with good reason) Combat vs Hemo thread were primarily about Shadowstep, and less than a week ago in this very thread there was further analysis of it (see posts 893-895). So it's not really accurate to say no one has put any thought into it lately, because we have, and concluded that it's clearly inferior for stationary fights, and while there is some survivability and movement gained from it, most people seem to think that these advantages are insufficient to offset the loss of DPS.

As for collecting data on the matter: the problem is that there's just so much variance on Rogue DPS in practical situations. Even neglecting the issue of actual randomness in your rolls against the mob - lucky crit strings and whatever (which is a considerable source of variance), the fact that every fight is a little different, the positioning is a little different, the debuffs the boss passes out can be a little different, your gear can be a little different... basically, in order to get any truly statistical significant information out of WWS parses, you need to have literally dozens of parses with the same rogue in the same gear doing the same fights with each of the two different specs. Anything you can gather in a couple weeks - or even a couple of months - really just isn't that conclusive, and falls more under the category of "anecdotal evidence" rather than "proof".

So, fundamentally: if you enjoy SS and want to play it? Fine. But without some actual numbers - either statistical analysis, large-scale simulations, or a selection of WWS parses on a scale no one has yet attempted - you really don't have the evidence to say that it's better than asserted in the beginning of the thread. It has been analyzed by many of the top theorycrafters, weighed, and found wanting.
#963SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2 Shaker
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
So, fundamentally: if you enjoy SS and want to play it? Fine. But without some actual numbers - either statistical elements, or large-scale simulations, or a selection of WWS parses on a scale no one has yet attempted - you really don't have the evidence to say that it's better than asserted in the beginning of the thread. It has been analyzed by many of the top theorycrafters, weighed, and found wanting.
Well, I think that we can evalutate any top-end WWS that is provided. I mean, if someone provides a WWS that shows a T6'd shadowstep rogue doing 2k+ DPS, and we look and don't see any major abnormalities (3-4x heroism, 60%+ crit rate, etc), we can then start saying "Okay, what are we missing". I'm trying to be fair in drawing a line in the sand and saying "I believe that this line is outside of the capability of Shadowstep builds, but is capable by combat builds - if what you say is true (that whatever build is near-equal to combat), then you should be able to READILY provide a WWS that meets these criteria."

I'll admit the 1555 WWS of me on Morogrim is something of a rarity, since I don't get 0-grave attempts that often, but it is VERY reproducable, in the case that I do get 0 graves.

So, to further simply it - there's 3 fights I can realistically see marking off DPS on - T4: Magtheridon, T5: Morogrim, T6: Teron.
#964SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2 Hanos
Originally Posted by bamsemats View Post
Lots of stupid pointless rambling
I was going to sit down and discredit everything that you have stated that is obviously wrong, but others have beaten me too it. So let me make it simple for you:

Theorycrafting can tell us how much we will hit for with any combination of gear and mob armor, we know the mechanics of the abilities, and we know how cycles work. Therefore with reasonable certainty we can determine that over an infinite period of time, your AVERAGE DPS, will be around a certain value, with a very high decree of accuracy.

More importantly, we can determine the relative value of stats, aka it is far more important to me to know if 10 Crit, 10 Hit, 5 Agi/Hit, 10 Agi, 5 Agi/7 Stam or 10 AP/7 Stam will give me the largest increase in DPS, based on a given set of gear, abilities and boss armor.

So based off of all of this information and testing, we have concluded that the highest current DPS Spec is Combat Swords, at certain gear levels the TOTAL CONTRIBUTION including Hemo Charges, from a Tri-Spec Hemo Build will come close, and a Shadow Step build will lag behind by about 12%. Considering T6 Gear, a good DPS number is ~2000, that means Shadowstep would do 240 DPS less, from my experience with an extremely talented rogue in my guild, that is accurate.

Here is our Teron kill 2 weeks ago, Levee, Apocc and I are combat, Hafoc is Shadowstep, while Combat Spec'ed Hafoc does essentially the same DPS as me, however here he is 210 DPS behind me (and ~150 DPS behind Levee and Apocc):
Wow Web Stats

Gurtogg - Levee got Fel Rage, Hafoc is 260 DPS behind me
Wow Web Stats

Mother - Levee's gear is the issue here (no 2 piece with SR Gear on), Hafoc is 190 DPS behind on a much lower DPS total)

Hyjal - More of the same
WWS Loading...

Now Hafoc is Shadowstep not because he thinks it is better, but because we are in full farm mode and he is having fun and not respecing from his PvP Spec each week, come Sunwell he will be Combat Swords.


Now you are trying to claim that Shadowstep does as much or more damage. There is no scenario or set of gear where that can occur. You talk about the skill of the player, guess what, I consider myself a skilled player, I will do more damage as Combat, the mechanics dictate it, you on the other hand may do more damage as Shadowstep, the cycles are much easier, you don't have the cooldowns to manage, you don't have random energy generation to deal with, you don't have to adjust on the fly.

Also, Kael is a horrible fight to model DPS on, the movement time alone means that Shadowstep if used properly is very helpful, however the spreadsheets do deal with movement time, which is why Cat's Swiftness has a lower DPS value then Dexterity and Swift Skyfire Diamond is one of the worst Meta's, yes in a movement fight these abilities will increase your DPS on SWS, because that is Total Damage/Total time raid is in combat, WWS does Total Damage/Time YOU are in combat (something like time from first interaction with boss to time of last interaction with boss, and if you don't do anything for more then 5 second in between it stops counting until you do)

Some things to keep in mind:
-Yes, your white damage will be higher, this is due to Serrated Blades, the exact value is variable depending on boss armor. Nothing at the bottom of the combat tree affects white damage (other then Expertise.
-Your yellow damage will go down, you have less energy, do fewer finishers, some of your finishers are dodged etc. Everything at the bottom of the Combat Tree affects Yellow Damage.


One final point:
Teron Parse again-
Me (Combat) -
Melee - 68%
Sinister Strike - 21%
Rupture - 5%
Deadly -3%

Hafoc (SS)
Melee - 57%
Hemo - 31%
Rupture - 5%
Deadly - %
Hafoc is a Assination/Shadowstep Build, which will have less white damage then a combat/Shadowstep build

His average Rupture ticked for 429, and mine for 286, however while he had 48 ticks, I got 68 due to more finishers, due to more energy, result, while his was ticking for 50% more, he only did 1000 more rupture damage then me.



So in conclusion, I have to assume that you are basing this entirely on Kael, thus your analysis is flawed, or you are a bad rogue and a complete idiot, hopefully it is the former, but based on your posting, I am leaning towards the later.
#965SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2 Hanos
Originally Posted by Shaker View Post
Well, I think that we can evalutate any top-end WWS that is provided. I mean, if someone provides a WWS that shows a T6'd shadowstep rogue doing 2k+ DPS, and we look and don't see any major abnormalities (3-4x heroism, 60%+ crit rate, etc), we can then start saying "Okay, what are we missing". I'm trying to be fair in drawing a line in the sand and saying "I believe that this line is outside of the capability of Shadowstep builds, but is capable by combat builds - if what you say is true (that whatever build is near-equal to combat), then you should be able to READILY provide a WWS that meets these criteria."

I'll admit the 1555 WWS of me on Morogrim is something of a rarity, since I don't get 0-grave attempts that often, but it is VERY reproducable, in the case that I do get 0 graves.

So, to further simply it - there's 3 fights I can realistically see marking off DPS on - T4: Magtheridon, T5: Morogrim, T6: Teron.
I posted some parses above, Hafoc is Shadowstep 20/0/41, while not ideal, it is going to be close to 0/20/41, with predictable variations:
-Lower White Damage due to no Duel Wield, no Precision
-More energy due to Relentless, and more CPs due to Ruthlessness

The issue is, that he is basing his conclusions off of Kael, which is the wrong fight to due it on, since your time on target could be significantly higher with Shadowstep, not to mention the time out of combat is hugely variable, along with many other factors.
#966SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2 Aldriana
Originally Posted by Shaker View Post
Well, I think that we can evalutate any top-end WWS that is provided. I mean, if someone provides a WWS that shows a T6'd shadowstep rogue doing 2k+ DPS, and we look and don't see any major abnormalities (3-4x heroism, 60%+ crit rate, etc), we can then start saying "Okay, what are we missing". I'm trying to be fair in drawing a line in the sand and saying "I believe that this line is outside of the capability of Shadowstep builds, but is capable by combat builds - if what you say is true (that whatever build is near-equal to combat), then you should be able to READILY provide a WWS that meets these criteria."

I'll admit the 1555 WWS of me on Morogrim is something of a rarity, since I don't get 0-grave attempts that often, but it is VERY reproducable, in the case that I do get 0 graves.

So, to further simply it - there's 3 fights I can realistically see marking off DPS on - T4: Magtheridon, T5: Morogrim, T6: Teron.
Yes and no. I mean, the theoretical difference between Combat and Shadowstep is, what, 12%? I've posted ~2400 DPS on Teron (with insane buffs + heroisms, but still). 2400 minus 12 percent is still 2100. So, frankly, seeing a Shadowstep build hit 2100 wouldn't really surprise me that much.

In terms of other benchmarking fights: Anetheron, Azgalor (depending on strategy), and Gurtogg (assuming you don't get Fel Raged) are also reasonable sustained fights in T6 content.
#967SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Left
Originally Posted by bamsemats View Post
Left: How would you like me to provide the information on my gear? I assume you could simply check the armory to see what gear I have, but I might be in pvp gear when I log out...
I'll start gathering some WWS stats asap.
Specifically, if you had any significant gear changes in between parses, let us know. Checking your armory doesn't work that well unless you log out in DPS gear; PVP gear vs. DPS gear will make about as much difference in damage as going from Combat to Shadowstep spec.

Also, the trinkets you use can have a huge impact. Did you get any trinket upgrades between parses? Between combat and Shadowstep specs? Etc.

However, since someone else has just posted several WWS's which convincingly are putting Shadowstep 150-250 DPS behind in T6 content, you probably have a tough audience. One thing we can (and will) look at is the damage breakdown in your WWS vs. Hafoc's to see what the differences between going combat and assassination are.
#968SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2 Shaker
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
Yes and no. I mean, the theoretical difference between Combat and Shadowstep is, what, 12%? I've posted ~2400 DPS on Teron (with insane buffs + heroisms, but still). 2400 minus 12 percent is still 2100. So, frankly, seeing a Shadowstep build hit 2100 wouldn't really surprise me that much.

In terms of other benchmarking fights: Anetheron, Azgalor (depending on strategy), and Gurtogg (assuming you don't get Fel Raged) are also reasonable sustained fights in T6 content.
I don't think that's an error in methodology, then - but one of numbers. So I'll edit to say 2200 DPS in full T6 gear.
#969SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2 Hanos
Originally Posted by Shaker View Post
I don't think that's an error in methodology, then - but one of numbers. So I'll edit to say 2200 DPS in full T6 gear.
I would still be surprised to see Shadowstep break 2000 DPS, Combat is going to scale better with the potential buffs. When going to the extreme, you can chain heroisms, haste pots, and drums, anything else is pretty standard these days, and the synergy between combat and haste makes me think it will pull away more and more.
#970SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2 Aldriana
Well, Combat certainly does scale better, but I think Shadowstep can still hit 2k. For purposes of comparison: with a reasonable approximation of the buffs I had for the Teron kill in question, the Rogue Gear sheet estimates 2352 DPS against Teron. Swapping my spec to 0/20/40 (as the Rogue Gear sheet doesn't currently support Shadowstep) with the same gear and buffs estimates 2096 DPS. Shadowstep would add an additional, oh, 15 DPS or so, so with a lucky run I could easily see 2150 or even 2200 happening. It would require truly excessive levels of buff, to be sure; but I'm not prepared to say it's impossible.
#971SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2 Hanos
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
Well, Combat certainly does scale better, but I think Shadowstep can still hit 2k. For purposes of comparison: with a reasonable approximation of the buffs I had for the Teron kill in question, the Rogue Gear sheet estimates 2352 DPS against Teron. Swapping my spec to 0/20/40 (as the Rogue Gear sheet doesn't currently support Shadowstep) with the same gear and buffs estimates 2096 DPS. Shadowstep would add an additional, oh, 15 DPS or so, so with a lucky run I could easily see 2150 or even 2200 happening. It would require truly excessive levels of buff, to be sure; but I'm not prepared to say it's impossible.
What buffs/consumables are you using to hit 2400 DPS? I have personally capped out around 2100, however the other rogues in my guild haven't taken the initiative to level leatherworking for more DPS.
#972SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2 Shaker
Oh, and yeah, one caveat to that WWS challenge is single-heroism. Multiple heroisms on a short fight will COMPLETELY skew numbers.
#973SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2 Aldriana
Originally Posted by Shaker View Post
Oh, and yeah, one caveat to that WWS challenge is single-heroism. Multiple heroisms on a short fight will COMPLETELY skew numbers.
Okay, sure. If you disallow multi-heroism, we're probably back down to 2k or so being high-end for Shadowstep; see below for details.

Originally Posted by Hanos View Post
What buffs/consumables are you using to hit 2400 DPS? I have personally capped out around 2100, however the other rogues in my guild haven't taken the initiative to level leatherworking for more DPS.
The gear in question is what I'm currently wearing on armor, except WSC swapped out for Ashtongue Talisman, and Arcanite Steam-Pistol instead of Twisted Blades.

Disable Murder on the sheet, as Teron is not Murderable. Set boss armor to 6200, as Teron is a low-armor boss. Now, enable the following buffs:

Improved Gift of the Wild
Imp Battle Shout
Solarian's Sapphire
Imp Blessing of Might
Blessing of Kings
Leader of the Pack
Imp Hunter's Mark
Expose Weakness
Flask of Relentless Assault
Spicy Hot Talbuk
Grace of Air (yes, I had a shaman twisting it for the attempt in question)
Strength of Earth
Curse of Recklessness
Sunder Armor x5
Faerie Fire
Mangle
Use Haste Pots Every Cooldown
Drums of War
Heroism/Bloodlust
Windfury MH
Deadly Poison OH

So, I show that as 2114 DPS. But here's the key thing. Heroisms in the sheet are per 10 minutes; in order to get an accurate estimate of Heroism in a 3-minute fight, we should triple the number of Heroisms listed. Plus, on the fight in question, I got 3 Heroisms. Hence, to accurately model the amount of heroism I had for the attempt, set Number of Heroisms to 9. This brings total DPS to 2352.

Note that in reality, I also had a Scroll of Agility V on, and the 5th member of my group was a Ret Pally, which probably adds another 50 DPS or so, which gets us up to the 2400 range - which is what I observed.

Of course, by Shaker's point, we shouldn't be counting on 3 heroisms; rather, we can only use 1. However, for a 3 minute fight, that's still the equivalent of 3 per 10 minutes, so we set Number of Heroisms to 3. This drops DPS to 2173. If we then respec to 0/20/40, we're still reporting 1937 DPS. And with the aforementioned agility scroll and ret pally - or having an MS warrior in the raid, or whatever... 2k just doesn't look that unreasonable to me.
#974SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2robfang
Within the flames, I want to point out some quick facts about the dps sheets concerning the shadowstep - combat-sword builds discussion.

The sheets tend to assume the best case for combat swords builds while assuming the worst case for the shadowstep builds in the following occasions.

1st assumption is, averaged out energy regeneration. This is a major assumption. With this assumption, the spreadsheet calculated DPS of the combat sword build tend to get higher than the real situation. The reason for that is, energy regeneration can spike and does not always allow the best cycle to be applied for a combat-swords build. On the other hand, shadowstep builds are much less subject to this and their real DPS should be more closer to the spreadsheet calculations.

2nd assumption is, non-stop white dps. While this assumption holds true for some boss-fights, clearly it does not hold true for the others. As (assasination) shadowstep builds rely heavily on yellow damage (mainly the hemorrhage damage), any interruption in the white DPS (i.e. running around, changing targets) will shift the scales to the (assasination) shadowstep builds due to the energy regeneration in the absence of white DPS.

Now, with regards to the (raid) utility, which build wins out? This should be the question we must ask. Answers can vary, and the question change its form depending on the raid progress.

1st case - progress run:

Are there any DPS checks that involve non-stop, single target DPS? Will there be a shadowstep rogue failing while a combat-sword rogue is passing this check?

Are there any strategy checks which involve escaping from damage in time? Will there be a combat-sword rogue failing while a shadowstep rogue is cheating death during these checks?

Which of the above are more important on the progress runs?

2nd case - farm run:

Assuming that both shadowstep rogue and combat-specced rogue already passed the DPS checks, what should be the concern of the raid?

I believe I have made my point by asking these questions.
#975SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Khaz_Baelfire
Originally Posted by bamsemats View Post
Once again you guys seem to be totally missing the point.

For the shadowstep vs combat sword: I didnt try it once, I doubt that I would have been more lucky just because I specced shadowstep than when I was specced combat swords, why would I have been?

In regards to collecting data, all DMs and WWS showed the difference, what more data is needed?
Your statement is like saying 2+2=5 without showing how you got to that value.
#976SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Tyious1
Trying to Figure out a weapon combo here. I heard this Fist/sword doing more or equal dps. Should I aim for talon of azshara or talon from alar. I have current s2 swords. just looking for some input here.
#977SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2 Aldriana
Take whichever drops first. Fist/sword does only marginally less DPS than sword/sword, so while in a vacuum Talon of Azshara is perhaps slightly more damage, in practice they are so close that there's no real reason to choose one over the other.
#978SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Tyious1
Cool thanks. I need them to drop. Only one rogue in my guild that has azshara and talon wont drop
#979SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Left
Originally Posted by robfang View Post
...

2nd assumption is, non-stop white dps. While this assumption holds true for some boss-fights, clearly it does not hold true for the others. As (assasination) shadowstep builds rely heavily on yellow damage (mainly the hemorrhage damage), any interruption in the white DPS (i.e. running around, changing targets) will shift the scales to the (assasination) shadowstep builds due to the energy regeneration in the absence of white DPS.

...
Actually, I think several people have already mentioned that 0/20/41 Shadowstep is likely to do more white DPS, not less, than Combat Swords (or at least be comparable). The reason is that most talents at the bottom of the combat tree (ie, beyond DW spec) increase yellow DPS only (Adrenaline Rush, Surprise Attacks, Combat Potency, Aggression) whereas talents in the bottom of the Subtlety tree benefit white attacks as well as yellow attacks (Serrated Blades, Deadliness, Sinister Calling). For my own gear in the DPS spreadsheet, my white DPS increases from 477 to 507 when I use a Shadowstep build, but my overall DPS goes down due to lost yellow DPS.

In other words, while this may be an assumption that the spreadsheet makes, it is an assumption that favors Shadowstep, not Combat.
#980SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2robfang
Originally Posted by Left View Post
Actually, I think several people have already mentioned that 0/20/41 Shadowstep is likely to do more white DPS, not less, than Combat Swords (or at least be comparable). The reason is that most talents at the bottom of the combat tree (ie, beyond DW spec) increase yellow DPS only (Adrenaline Rush, Surprise Attacks, Combat Potency, Aggression) whereas talents in the bottom of the Subtlety tree benefit white attacks as well as yellow attacks (Serrated Blades, Deadliness, Sinister Calling). For my own gear in the DPS spreadsheet, my white DPS increases from 477 to 507 when I use a Shadowstep build, but my overall DPS goes down due to lost yellow DPS.

In other words, while this may be an assumption that the spreadsheet makes, it is an assumption that favors Shadowstep, not Combat.
If you read carefully you can see that I have stated "assassination" in parenthesis. Thus I have mentioned assassination-shadowstep builds. In addition to that, even some (a significant chunk in fact) of the yellow damage of the combat builds comes from non-stop white dps (i.e. combat potency). So, there is nothing wrong with my statement.
#981SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
robfang
Originally Posted by Hanos View Post
Me (Combat) -
Melee - 68%
Sinister Strike - 21%
Rupture - 5%
Deadly -3%

Hafoc (SS)
Melee - 57%
Hemo - 31%
Rupture - 5%
Deadly - %
You can see the wws values for the builds here. Assassination SS gets 36% of damage from yellow damage while combat build gets 26%. This is from a non-stop white dps fight. So, combat build's yellow DPS is increased by combat potency to the maximum. However, it still lags the SS yellow dps by 10%.

Last edited by robfang : 01/16/08 at 11:21 AM.
#982SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
Left
Originally Posted by robfang View Post
If you read carefully you can see that I have stated "assassination" in parenthesis. Thus I have mentioned assassination-shadowstep builds. In addition to that, even some (a significant chunk in fact) of the yellow damage of the combat builds comes from non-stop white dps (i.e. combat potency). So, there is nothing wrong with my statement.
Good point; I did miss that.

EDIT: However, after rereading more closely, I'm trying to figure out what you mean by "energy regeneration in the absence of white DPS." Time off-target energy regen is the same for both specs, but in practice does this really matter? After a few seconds off target your energy caps out and regen means nothing. The second you are back on target white DPS turns back on and you return to on-target regen models. So unless you are talking about breaks of between zero and eight (or so) seconds, there isn't really any difference. Above eight or so seconds you are capped out on energy anyway when you return to combat.

Sure, some fights have small gaps like this (Lurker comes to mind), but in a lot of others the gaps are well above eight seconds (Morogrim, for example, or High King, or Gruul). (I can't speak for post T5 content, as we're still in SSC.)

Also, in the last post you gave percentages... those are percentages of overall personal DPS for two separate rogues. You said (if I interpret you correctly) that the Combat builds SS damage lags the Assassination builds Hemo damage by a significant amount, even on a sustained fight. (You said 10%, as per the difference between 26% and 36% of overall damage, but what that really means is a (0.36-0.26)/(0.26) = 38% increase in Yellow damage for Hemo.) That is true if and only if the rogues are doing the same overall DPS, which isn't usually the case. Usually, the combat rogue is well ahead overall, so even though his Yellow may be less percentagewise, it may be fairly close in absolute terms.

Now on the WWS in question, Nessala did ~84k Sinister Strike damage and Hafoc did ~106k Hemo damage. That's about a 26% difference. However, Nessala also had a low SS crit rate (22% vs. his 27% on Melee), while Hafoc had a very high Hemo crit rate (41% vs. his 35% on Melee). So a big chunk of that gap might just be RNG fickleness.

Last edited by Left : 01/16/08 at 11:42 AM.
#983SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
robfang
Originally Posted by Left View Post
Good point; I did miss that.

EDIT: However, after rereading more closely, I'm trying to figure out what you mean by "energy regeneration in the absence of white DPS." Time off-target energy regen is the same for both specs, but in practice does this really matter? After a few seconds off target your energy caps out and regen means nothing. The second you are back on target white DPS turns back on and you return to on-target regen models. So unless you are talking about breaks of between zero and eight (or so) seconds, there isn't really any difference. Above eight or so seconds you are capped out on energy anyway when you return to combat.

Sure, some fights have small gaps like this (Lurker comes to mind), but in a lot of others the gaps are well above eight seconds (Morogrim, for example, or High King, or Gruul). (I can't speak for post T5 content, as we're still in SSC.)
Whether does it cap or not does not really matter for the topic under the discussion because the yellow dps unload of the assassination-SS build will always be higher. So, even in the capped out case, assasionation-SS build will have the advantage. Al'ar, Leotherias are the other examples of these kind of fights.

Originally Posted by Left View Post
Also, in the last post you gave percentages... those are percentages of overall personal DPS for two separate rogues. You said (if I interpret you correctly) that the Combat builds SS damage lags the Assassination builds Hemo damage by a significant amount, even on a sustained fight. (You said 10%, as per the difference between 26% and 36% of overall damage, but what that really means is a (0.36-0.26)/(0.26) = 38% increase in Yellow damage for Hemo.) That is true if and only if the rogues are doing the same overall DPS, which isn't usually the case. Usually, the combat rogue is well ahead overall, so even though his Yellow may be less percentagewise, it may be fairly close in absolute terms.

Now on the WWS in question, Nessala did ~84k Sinister Strike damage and Hafoc did ~106k Hemo damage. That's about a 26% difference. However, Nessala also had a low SS crit rate (22% vs. his 27% on Melee), while Hafoc had a very high Hemo crit rate (41% vs. his 35% on Melee). So a big chunk of that gap might just be RNG fickleness.
In that wws, you need to compare the dps of Levee and Hafoc (these rogues are the benchmarks). Even though Levee had higher percent of crits (46%), Hapoc wins out by 106k to 93k. Also, note that we usually expect SS rogues to do more crits due to the Sinister Calling talent.

Last edited by robfang : 01/16/08 at 11:52 AM.
#984SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2kezhou
How would a 30/31/0 raid spec be?

With the loss of combat potency and surprise attacks you're pretty hard hit but can seal fate make up for it by itself? What if one would stack crit gear + 2 t5, tsunami trinket and ashtongue trinket. That'd give some pretty hefty bonuses for critting. Along with druid buff I'd think one could get around 45% crit chance.
The reason I'm not just refering to spreadsheet is that it simply doesn't take all this into account in regards to the extra bonus points generated. It simply opts to go a 2snd/5r cycle all the time instead of going 4-5snd/4-5r/4-5evi cycle. Of course you can only find out one way by testing it but I'm reluctant to regem/reenchant my gear for some weird notion that might be completely falsified.

I guess I'd have to calculate how much extra energy that is generated by combat potency and measure it up against the extra damage from an eviscerate in each cycle to get some clue of how it works. Can someone provide the energy gain per 10 seconds for combat potency?
#985SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Casterbridge
Shadow Step Raid build

Hey guys,

First wanted to say hello, I've been lurking for awhile, but with all the discussion on ShS in raiding I wanted to bounce a few ideas off and see what you thought.

First my normal spec is 20/41/0, but with recent changes to ShS wanted to see how it would do. Using the rogue spreadsheet on this site I theorycrafted the following build Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

While the spreadsheet does show a loss in DPS with my current gear (T4 stuff mostly with engineering goggles and Vengeful Chest piece gemmed and enchanted for pve). Its more like a 3-4% loss (buffed).

However usually the ShS builds mentioned are 20/0/41 or a 0/20/41 or something similar.

So I'm curious if there is anything I'm missing here since, spreadsheet wise, it seems to to perform better.

I have no WWS reports yet, I'm going to try and collect a few and see how it performs, my hope is that in more stationery fights it will lose out, but perform adequately and on more mobile fights it will outperform combat.

Any thoughts? Anything I'm missing that I should try differently, or am I possibly miss reading the spreadsheet?

Thanks
#986SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Cos-
Originally Posted by kezhou View Post
How would a 30/31/0 raid spec be?

With the loss of combat potency and surprise attacks you're pretty hard hit but can seal fate make up for it by itself? What if one would stack crit gear + 2 t5, tsunami trinket and ashtongue trinket. That'd give some pretty hefty bonuses for critting. Along with druid buff I'd think one could get around 45% crit chance.
The reason I'm not just refering to spreadsheet is that it simply doesn't take all this into account in regards to the extra bonus points generated. It simply opts to go a 2snd/5r cycle all the time instead of going 4-5snd/4-5r/4-5evi cycle. Of course you can only find out one way by testing it but I'm reluctant to regem/reenchant my gear for some weird notion that might be completely falsified.

I guess I'd have to calculate how much extra energy that is generated by combat potency and measure it up against the extra damage from an eviscerate in each cycle to get some clue of how it works. Can someone provide the energy gain per 10 seconds for combat potency?
Say haste gets your offhand speed to 1.00 then cp is 3 energy per second provided you have decent amounts of hit rating.

Cosain - WWS
in 5 minutes and 42 seconds I got 975 energy back from cp. I have some pretty abysmal hit rating and it still came out to 2.87 energy per second returned.
#987SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2robfang
Originally Posted by Casterbridge View Post
Hey guys,

First wanted to say hello, I've been lurking for awhile, but with all the discussion on ShS in raiding I wanted to bounce a few ideas off and see what you thought.

First my normal spec is 20/41/0, but with recent changes to ShS wanted to see how it would do. Using the rogue spreadsheet on this site I theorycrafted the following build Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

While the spreadsheet does show a loss in DPS with my current gear (T4 stuff mostly with engineering goggles and Vengeful Chest piece gemmed and enchanted for pve). Its more like a 3-4% loss (buffed).

However usually the ShS builds mentioned are 20/0/41 or a 0/20/41 or something similar.

So I'm curious if there is anything I'm missing here since, spreadsheet wise, it seems to to perform better.

I have no WWS reports yet, I'm going to try and collect a few and see how it performs, my hope is that in more stationery fights it will lose out, but perform adequately and on more mobile fights it will outperform combat.

Any thoughts? Anything I'm missing that I should try differently, or am I possibly miss reading the spreadsheet?

Thanks
You are right, 11/9/41 performs better than both 20/0/41 and 0/20/41 on a sustained dps fight.
#988SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Left
Originally Posted by Casterbridge View Post
Hey guys,

First wanted to say hello, I've been lurking for awhile, but with all the discussion on ShS in raiding I wanted to bounce a few ideas off and see what you thought.

First my normal spec is 20/41/0, but with recent changes to ShS wanted to see how it would do. Using the rogue spreadsheet on this site I theorycrafted the following build Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

While the spreadsheet does show a loss in DPS with my current gear (T4 stuff mostly with engineering goggles and Vengeful Chest piece gemmed and enchanted for pve). Its more like a 3-4% loss (buffed).

However usually the ShS builds mentioned are 20/0/41 or a 0/20/41 or something similar.

So I'm curious if there is anything I'm missing here since, spreadsheet wise, it seems to to perform better.

I have no WWS reports yet, I'm going to try and collect a few and see how it performs, my hope is that in more stationery fights it will lose out, but perform adequately and on more mobile fights it will outperform combat.

Any thoughts? Anything I'm missing that I should try differently, or am I possibly miss reading the spreadsheet?

Thanks
11/9/41 has been thrown around for quite a while as a possible build. It is marginally better than 20/0/41 or 0/20/41, but it is still not that great.

For everyone playing with ShS on the spreadsheets: remember that Hemo builds usually take your raid DPS contribution from Hemo into account. Since it does that and ShS still comes in a minimum of 3-4% behind (usually much more at the high end), you can count on personal DPS from a ShS build to be quite a bit lower than the 3-4% shown (except on high mobility fights, which are a special case).
#989SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Casterbridge
Originally Posted by Left View Post
11/9/41 has been thrown around for quite a while as a possible build. It is marginally better than 20/0/41 or 0/20/41, but it is still not that great.

For everyone playing with ShS on the spreadsheets: remember that Hemo builds usually take your raid DPS contribution from Hemo into account. Since it does that and ShS still comes in a minimum of 3-4% behind (usually much more at the high end), you can count on personal DPS from a ShS build to be quite a bit lower than the 3-4% shown (except on high mobility fights, which are a special case).
Thanks for the input. Can I ask what are considered highly mobile fights? My guild is currently just starting its progression into SSC. I see Gruul as being a bit mobile due to the throws and shatters. Mags depends on whether your on cube duty (which usually I am) and then I've seen hydross and Lurker, and I know with Lurkers whirl the ability to ShS back would (seem) useful, are these considerided mobile fights by most of you or no?

Also if the ShS build is simply not going to be viable for raiding without a signifcant personal DPS and raid DPS loss is the old hybrid build with hemo considered worthwhile anymore? The build was something like Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft or something similar. Is it worth bringing along at least one rogue with a similar build to raids like it is a survival hunter? The spreadsheet seems to suggest yes...

Also one last thing I did notice is that I downloaded two armory's to the spreadsheet, one was mine and was another rogue with BT level gear. I must admit his drop in damage was quite a bit more than mine, so it looks like the ShS build does not scale well at all.
#990SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Left
Originally Posted by Casterbridge View Post
Thanks for the input. Can I ask what are considered highly mobile fights? My guild is currently just starting its progression into SSC. I see Gruul as being a bit mobile due to the throws and shatters. Mags depends on whether your on cube duty (which usually I am) and then I've seen hydross and Lurker, and I know with Lurkers whirl the ability to ShS back would (seem) useful, are these considerided mobile fights by most of you or no?

Also if the ShS build is simply not going to be viable for raiding without a signifcant personal DPS and raid DPS loss is the old hybrid build with hemo considered worthwhile anymore? The build was something like Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft or something similar. Is it worth bringing along at least one rogue with a similar build to raids like it is a survival hunter? The spreadsheet seems to suggest yes...

Also one last thing I did notice is that I downloaded two armory's to the spreadsheet, one was mine and was another rogue with BT level gear. I must admit his drop in damage was quite a bit more than mine, so it looks like the ShS build does not scale well at all.
From fights I have seen, I would consider Maulgar, Gruul, Hex Lord, and Morogrim "highly mobile". (By this I mean that there are significant periods of time-off-target that could be considerably reduced by Shadowstep.) Lurker's whirl is short enough range that you can get right back in without hardly losing DPS time; ShS doesn't help with time on target there.

Other fights (which I have not seen) which I might consider highly mobile include Kael, possibly Vashj, Rage Winterchill (due to death and decay), and Archimonde (due to doomfire). Having not seen those fights, it's hard to say.

And yes, Hemo-Swords or Hemo-Deadliness hybrids are still considered raid viable for at least 1 rogue per raid, but rarely more than 2. (Wowhead is broken atm, so I can't view or respond to the exact spec you posted.) Read through the past ten pages of this thread or so.
#991SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Balkoth
Originally Posted by Left View Post
I would consider Maulgar, Gruul, Hex Lord, and Morogrim "highly mobile". (By this I mean that there are significant periods of time-off-target that could be considerably reduced by Shadowstep.) Lurker's whirl is short enough range that you can get right back in without hardly losing DPS time; ShS doesn't help with time on target there.
There is more time spent not DPSing because Maulgar is whirlwinding than is used running from target to target. Gruul, yes, though getting back into melee extremely might get you splattered by a Hurtful Strike. Hex Lord has very little time off target. Morogim is a benchmark for melee DPS as they just stand there. The ONLY interruption is the possibility of getting graved.

Other fights (which I have not seen) which I might consider highly mobile include Kael, possibly Vashj, Rage Winterchill (due to death and decay), and Archimonde (due to doomfire). Having not seen those fights, it's hard to say.
Kael is not particulary mobile. Thaladred and the Astromancer are dangerous for melee, period. Our method, at least, is for melee to kill the engineer and then get Kael, who they do not move from after that. Vashj isn't mobile either, unless you're not helping kill the nagas spawning. Rage Winterchill CAN be mobile, but usually isn't. Archimonde CAN be mobile, but melee DPS usually is the bulk of the DPS of that fight.
#992SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Left
Originally Posted by Balkoth View Post
There is more time spent not DPSing because Maulgar is whirlwinding than is used running from target to target. Gruul, yes, though getting back into melee extremely might get you splattered by a Hurtful Strike. Hex Lord has very little time off target. Morogim is a benchmark for melee DPS as they just stand there. The ONLY interruption is the possibility of getting graved.
Maulgar whirlwinding is what keeps people out, yes, but I can see where ShS would help (marginally) to get you back in faster, especially if he gets repositioned following a charge.

For Gruul, yeah, the only thing you need to watch is to not get splattered by a hurtful. Otherwise, ShS can be a boost.

Hex Lord, for us, has involved him getting the stupid Paladin drain and the melee backing out of the consecrate... thus ShS could be (again marginally) useful.

Morogrim is a benchmark... unless you get graved. If you get graved, you waste a ton of time getting back on target. I got graved four times our last kill, so with the wasted time running I could see where ShS could help time-on-target significantly. However, it's a grab bag whether you get graved or not. In the best case, you don't get graved at all and get 100% time-on-target. In the worst case, you are constantly bandaging and running back.

Originally Posted by Balkoth View Post
Kael is not particulary mobile. Thaladred and the Astromancer are dangerous for melee, period. Our method, at least, is for melee to kill the engineer and then get Kael, who they do not move from after that. Vashj isn't mobile either, unless you're not helping kill the nagas spawning. Rage Winterchill CAN be mobile, but usually isn't. Archimonde CAN be mobile, but melee DPS usually is the bulk of the DPS of that fight.
I was going off someone else's earlier post that Kael was mobile, but if I understand correctly the strats for Kael vary widely from guild to guild. Like I said, I haven't seen these fights, so I defer to your judgment.

The overall point was "yes there are fights where ShS can (though not necessarily will) significantly boost time-on-target." The other point was "even so, it's generally not worth it and/or ShS won't help enough to overcome the spec's other deficiencies."
#993SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2 Hanos
Originally Posted by robfang View Post
In that wws, you need to compare the dps of Levee and Hafoc (these rogues are the benchmarks). Even though Levee had higher percent of crits (46%), Hapoc wins out by 106k to 93k. Also, note that we usually expect SS rogues to do more crits due to the Sinister Calling talent.
Actually the benchmarks would be Me (Nessala), Apocc (also Combat) and Hafoc, Levee is at a lower gear level then the rest of us (I didn't even get my 4 piece until later that night, whereas both Hafoc and Apocc had 4 piece T6). Something else to think about that will throw a wrench in things, and is why comparing across rogues for breakdowns isn't valid, I stack -armor, no one else does. Hafoc has the shoulders, gloves and bow, I had the gloves, bow, ring, executioner, warp-spring and madness... so yeah, however, Hafoc has Serrated Blades. Basically when similarly spec'ed Hafoc and I are very close and Apocc lags behind a little, so if anything in terms of maxing out a spec, compare Hafoc and I.
#994SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2PartNinja
What is the best thing to do while ADR is poped? Like what series of abilities should I use?
#995SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2 Hanos
Originally Posted by PartNinja View Post
What is the best thing to do while ADR is poped? Like what series of abilities should I use?
That depends entirely on your spec and gear level.
#996SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2PartNinja
Full kara/gruul/mag gear. Combat swords.
#997SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Ozzmar
The more effective thing to do would be to actually fill out your profile with an Armory link so that we can just click your character's name and see your gear/spec. That would've saved two posts!
#998SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2 Shaker
And in general, Ad Rush just gives you enough energy to do an extra 5pt eviscerate in your cycle - so for 1 period of time, you go Xs/5r/5e, then back to your normal Xs/5r cycle. Answers will change for combat daggers and what cycle you're running there - I don't have enough experience to be helpful in that regard.
#999SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2 Hanos
Originally Posted by Shaker View Post
And in general, Ad Rush just gives you enough energy to do an extra 5pt eviscerate in your cycle - so for 1 period of time, you go Xs/5r/5e, then back to your normal Xs/5r cycle. Answers will change for combat daggers and what cycle you're running there - I don't have enough experience to be helpful in that regard.
While true for higher gear levels, that doesn't hold true at all gear levels, don't forget, AR is only 150 Energy, 5 CPs with Sinister Strike would take 200, you have to have some extra energy or get Combat Potency Procs to get the full 5 pointer, and that is dependent on hit rating, off-hand speed, and luck.
#1000SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2 Shaker
That's a good point - though in general I believe most people combine it with Blade Flurry, so the extra haste generally gets you the extra CPot procs you need.
#1001SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Lastembrace
OK - managed to finally do some testing with Mana Tap/Arcane Torrent.

Hyjal first tonight as we had to attune a trial for BT, and we decided to clear the whole place. Rage Winterchill, Kaz'rogal and Archimonde are all succeptible to Mana tap. I had to sit out for Anetheron, and on Azgalor we have our melee only dpsing the doomguards that spawn so I couldn't test it on him but as both of these bosses have mana/cast spells it would not surprise me in the slightest if they are succeptible to Mana Tap too. So, Hyjal gets the thumbs up.

We also cleared the first 3 bosses of BT, Naj'entus and Supremus both have no mana and thus Mana Tap does not work on those and once again I had to sit out for Akama so I unfortunately couldn't test that either - willl have to do some more testing tomorrow and see if it's useful at all in there.

However, I tried a few macro's I'd made to see if I could have a single button I could mash for SS and Mana tap, the only one that worked to any extent was a /castrandom macro and even then, with AR up I found it would "randomly" try and trigger mana tap several times in a row leading to me actually capping energy, which obviously isn't good and kind of counters the point in what I'm trying to do.

So after a while I abandoned the use of macro's and tried to just use it normally, the problem though is I was so not used to it I often forgot about the whole thing. I've played this rogue for so long now that actually playing has become some what second nature, so it's going to take some adjusting to use it effectively that's for sure. When I did remember though it definitely had its uses, particularly on Archimonde as there is always a lot of time off target due to the airbursts/fears and twice or so I was able to stop snd dropping for a second or two because of it.

My initial "conclusion" then is that using it in the way I described in my first post is definitely plausible though obviously requires further testing as well as compiling a list of bosses it works on. Not only that but a lot of readjusting is necessary, at least for me, in order to just not forget about it... An SS/Mana Tap macro that worked without the problem I described earlier would definitely help some but as both abilities trigger the GCD I'm not sure it's possible.

Last thing, the resist's seemed to be about what we expected I guess. During the entire night I only had two resisted Mana Taps out of maybe 18-20 in total. Obviously it's a tiny sample size but this would seem in line with the 17% arcane resistance bosses have by default and was posted earlier.

So all in all, needs more testing but looks some what promising.
#1002SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Arindelest
Akama is very likely to be useful for MT/AT since you're essentially killing "trash" with mana for most of the fight and only actually attacking the boss for ~< 1 minute; it's relatively unimportant if you were able to MT the boss, but you could MT the adds in the time you're killing them and unleash on the boss.

From what you're saying it's possible all bosses with mana are susceptible to MT.
#1003SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
robfang
Originally Posted by Hanos View Post
Actually the benchmarks would be Me (Nessala), Apocc (also Combat) and Hafoc, Levee is at a lower gear level then the rest of us (I didn't even get my 4 piece until later that night, whereas both Hafoc and Apocc had 4 piece T6). Something else to think about that will throw a wrench in things, and is why comparing across rogues for breakdowns isn't valid, I stack -armor, no one else does. Hafoc has the shoulders, gloves and bow, I had the gloves, bow, ring, executioner, warp-spring and madness... so yeah, however, Hafoc has Serrated Blades. Basically when similarly spec'ed Hafoc and I are very close and Apocc lags behind a little, so if anything in terms of maxing out a spec, compare Hafoc and I.
Yeah, I noticed it later, when I checked the armories. Sorry for the misinformation.

Yet, my point still holds true with regards to the yellow DPS of combat builds and 20/0/41 shadowstep builds. If you check out the damage dealt by Nessala and Hafoc throughout the full raid (which should give the best overall statistic), you can see that Nessala dealt 1878 k damage by using sinister strikes while Hafoc dealt 2225 k damage by using hemorrhage.

Edit: P.S. I have tried setup on the Hex Lord today. It works like wonders. Cloak of Shadows while soul drain provides you with enough combo points to get out 2 or 3 5cp finishers if you are lucky. I just wanted to share it

Last edited by robfang : 01/16/08 at 9:32 PM.
#1004SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2PSGarak
If you know the name of a mob with mana lying around somewhere you can write a macro to manatap that mob without changing your current dps target. Focus is the easiest way to do it, although if you're looking at a generic mob that gets killed and replaced frequently you can probably still do it by name. I would recomend not wiring it to your autoattack, for the reason you mentioned.

AR gives a net of five combo points if the extra finisher you gain out of it procs ruthlessness. It's more accurate to say it gives 4.6 combo points. Obviously it only gives that benefit after the finisher, but in realistic usage you can weave the extra eviscerate anywhere in your cycle you want. If you start at 2-3 points with rupture and S&D up, AR and evisc at five and proc ruthlessness, you've added four sin strikes and a 5-point evis without disrupting any cycle. You can play it conservatively and pop a 4-point evis, and stand to gain the occasional extra combo point in your cycle to make up for a previous unproc or lack of combat potency.
#1005SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Benhoof
Originally Posted by Left View Post
For Gruul, yeah, the only thing you need to watch is to not get splattered by a hurtful. Otherwise, ShS can be a boost.
Just a question from an Twink-Rogue: "Wouldn't Cheat Death prevent this?"

I mean, even if you shadowstep right after shatter and get hit by one hurtfull strike, you would completely resist the damage.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.
#1006SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Hagareno
Originally Posted by Benhoof View Post
Just a question from an Twink-Rogue: "Wouldn't Cheat Death prevent this?"

I mean, even if you shadowstep right after shatter and get hit by one hurtfull strike, you would completely resist the damage.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.
If you would go to 0 health from the hurtful you will absorb it I belive, just like it says on the tooltip.
#1007SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2 Neshalin
If you're going to rely on Cheat Death to soak a Hurtful Strike, make sure it isn't still on cooldown! Beyond that it should work fine. Other fights where Shadowstep / Cheat Death shine are Supremus (staying on target in kite phase, without fear of taking random swings when he changes targets) and Archimonde. Shadowstepping directly out of an Air Burst will save you a lot of time. Archimonde may well be the only fight where this build can compete.
#1008SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Hagareno
For Gruul you should be safe if you only use it after Shatter as the Shatter cooldown is over a minute, you can use cloak every time too.
#1009SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Casterbridge
Quick question in the front page it has the hemo/swords build as being 5% lower than the sword/sword build, but thats personal dps only. Does the debuff value provided by hemo to the raid more than make up for the 5% loss, or is it about even or worse?

Just curious as my guild is going to try and progress further into SSC tonight and I know I'm going to have to switch out of my ShS build in order to contribute properly, just trying to figure out if I should go back to my regular (combat) build or give the hemo build a try. I would be the only rogue with hemo.

Thanks.
#1010SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Latito
Originally Posted by smallw View Post
hello everyone,
what r u doing in wow now?we have nothing to do in wow now ,i just rent my acct to Wow farm|wowfarm|rentalaccount|rental account|rental accounts|rentalaccounts|wow powerleveling to make some income for me .
i just joined a av bg,but most of the players were afkers.


how about u guys?write sth u do at wow now plz.
Interesting...
http://elitistjerks.com/search.php?searchid=829195


Casterbridge - At your level of progression, a single Hemo rogue will likely be about equal with combat sword rogues in terms of raid contribution to dps. At a T4 level, Hemo will be slightly more than combat swords (raid dps, not personal). At a T6 level, Combat Swords for all the rogues is generally best. That is after factoring in the Hemo debuff. The math/proof/etc is scattered throughout this thread and some of the other Rogue ones.
#1011SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Tayron
Hi,
is cheap shot a hitting attack than can apply poisons? I just managed to cheap shot a mob, and my first attacked missed, still i did instant poison damage on the mob. As I suppose misses won't apply poison, my cheap shot must have applied.
Is that correct, incorrect? Or hasn't anyone ever noticed?
#1012SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Cos-
Originally Posted by Tayron View Post
Hi,
is cheap shot a hitting attack than can apply poisons? I just managed to cheap shot a mob, and my first attacked missed, still i did instant poison damage on the mob. As I suppose misses won't apply poison, my cheap shot must have applied.
Is that correct, incorrect? Or hasn't anyone ever noticed?
Well misses shouldn't apply poison. CShot doesn't do yellow damage and it can miss soooo it sounds like it can hit. If it can hit then I wouldn't be surprised it can proc a poison. I'm pretty sure sap used to proc mh poison. I know sap can set off the WSC proc so once again, CS proccing instant poison sounds reasonable.
#1013SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Ozzmar
A good way to test this would be to just start a duel, and use this macro on the opponent a few dozen times:

/cast Cheap Shot
/stopattack

That -should- only Cheap Shot the opponent and immediately stop your auto attack. If you see a poison proc, then you have your answer.
#1014SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Nihthraefn
Question - the first page suggested combo cycles are back up to 4 or 5s/5r from 3 or 4s/5r.. is that due to the hit cap/expertise change, or was there a nerf to combat potency that I missed? I read back a number of pages and didn't find any information.
#1015SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2 Shaker
It's answered only a few pages back, but the gist of it is that due to the way that SS scales compared to rupture, you end up with more damage by spending all your energy on SS, and less (0 in 5s/5r) on finishers.
#1016SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
Nihthraefn
Hmm I missed it in all the shadowstep discussion. Thank you, I'll read back again and find it.

Edit: Good to know that my eyes didn't fail me, I'll read the gear thread posts. Thanks again

Last edited by Nihthraefn : 01/17/08 at 7:40 PM.
#1017SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Grunge
Originally Posted by Tayron View Post
Hi,
is cheap shot a hitting attack than can apply poisons? I just managed to cheap shot a mob, and my first attacked missed, still i did instant poison damage on the mob. As I suppose misses won't apply poison, my cheap shot must have applied.
Is that correct, incorrect? Or hasn't anyone ever noticed?
I've noticed this often as well in duels where Sap->Cheap Shot->Run away to restealth and open with 2 extra CP can often not work out since Wound Poison presumably procing off Cheap Shot.
However I'm not 100% sure that it was Cheap Shot that proced the poison, but I'm quite sure that it was Wound that removed Sap.
#1018SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2 Shaker
Originally Posted by Nihthraefn View Post
Hmm I missed it in all the shadowstep discussion. Thank you, I'll read back again and find it.
My apologies, the discussion was in the gear sheet thread - I've found one post I made about it there, Aldriana has a more detailed post right below it. My information is more reporting, she's the one who has done more of the math to prove it.

http://elitistjerks.com/593914-post1774.html
#1019SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Latito
Not disputing the truth of what Shaker and Aldrianna posted, however at Nihthraefn's gear level, it could well be lack of hit causing 3s/5r to become unsustainable, or lack of AP which is all rupture really scales with. I find it much less likely the cycle change is due to higher gear scaling with ~26% crit and 1770 AP. Its actually pretty odd that you would be suggested a 5s/5r cycle.. given you have a reasonable hit rating and DST. No static haste, 2pc T6 and a 1.5 spd OH don't help.. but still. Either way - both cycles are likely extremely close.

Armory: The World of Warcraft Armory
#1020SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2 Aldriana
Reading his post, I don't think he was actually asking a question specifically about his own gear, but about the information in the first post where it's asserted that 4s5r and 5s5r are probably the best options for non-2/5 T4 rogues. I'm not entirely sure why it recommended otherwise before, but I believe it to be correct now; by the Rogue Gear sheet, the theoretically minimal cycle for all but the highest hit/haste rogues is 3.X/5r, meaning 3s5r is not generally sustainable. Hence, most rogues are going to have 4s5r as their most compressed cycle, and 5s5r and their uncompressed cycle for the high crit/AP/ArPen cycle. There are a few rogues that can squeeze into 3s5r, although it seems like a risky cycle to me - a string of unluckly procs could easily cause and SnD gap. Thing is, this isn't a new thing; that's been true for as long as the Rogue Gear sheet has existed. So my best guess as to what happened is as follows: previously, the situation where 5s5r becomes optimal was not commonly known, and very few rogues were there. Hence, the most common cycles were 4s5r (for most people) and 3s5r (for those few with high hit/haste). Now, since more rogues are reaching the gear level where 5s5r takes over - and more people are aware that that's a viable option - it has been correctly marked as the 2nd most common cycle.

...or maybe it was just a mistake before. Regardless, what it says now is correct, and hasn't really changed in months.
#1021SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
KasumiRevy
Glass Joe

Dhargon
Human Rogue

Khaz Modan

Quick question in the front page it has the hemo/swords build as being 5% lower than the sword/sword build, but thats personal dps only. Does the debuff value provided by hemo to the raid more than make up for the 5% loss, or is it about even or worse?

Just curious as my guild is going to try and progress further into SSC tonight and I know I'm going to have to switch out of my ShS build in order to contribute properly, just trying to figure out if I should go back to my regular (combat) build or give the hemo build a try. I would be the only rogue with hemo.

Thanks.
e
It depends on the gear level of the rogues in question, but generally until HJ/BT+, you're total raid contribution is greater the combat swords, as hybrid pve hemo.

I can show you wws of ssc if you like, i'm actually a little bit above, or below the other sword rogue, (varies from day to day) and i'm MACES/HEMO.

SO I think in ssc, would work well. In places like BT, i'd be more likely to point you back to combat swords.

Last edited by KasumiRevy : 01/18/08 at 12:17 AM. Reason: in between boss attempts in ssc atm, sorry for misspels/typos
#1022SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
KasumiRevy
Wow Web Stats

tuesday ssc stats, keep in mind , this is post the hemo nerf.

Last edited by KasumiRevy : 01/18/08 at 12:11 AM. Reason: in between boss attempts in ssc atm
#1023SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Lastembrace
2nd round of Mana Tap/Arcane Torrent testing is in and the results are as follows (compiled with my other post from last night):

Mana tap works on:

Mount Hyjal

Rage Winterchill
Kaz'Rogal
Archimonde

Black Temple

Teron Gorefiend
Mother Shahraz
Illidari Council (Gathios)

Mana Tap does not work on:

Black Temple

Naj'entus
Supremus
Gurtogg Bloodboil
Reliquary of Souls (though I only tested one phase, will have to check for sure)
Illidan

Still unconfirmed:

Akama (presumed yes)
Anetheron (presumed yes, almost 100%)
Azgalor (presumed yes, almost 100%)

So, at least in regards to T6 content, Mana Tap and thus Arcane Torrent works on over 50% of the encounters assuming the as of yet untested bosses turn out as expected. I guess this means that it's use is some what viable and should be looked into. Now if only I could get used to using the damn thing...
#1024SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2weka
Would Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft be a viable raiding spec?
#1025SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2KasumiRevy
Originally Posted by weka View Post
Would Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft be a viable raiding spec?
No, relentless strikes, is pretty much a must have.
#1026SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2 Aldriana
Well, that's basically cookiecutter raiding shadowstep with Blade Flurry instead of Shadowstep... which means you lose the mobility advantage of Shadowstep, but still have the low DPS of Shadowstep. So, off the top of my head: on trash, it's a little better than Shadowstep but still worse than combat. On bosses, it's just plain terrible. So I'm gonna go with "no".
#1027SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
Darwyn
As regarding Cheap Shot applying poisons, I think that might be true, since I've myself experienced applying poisons with feint. It's easy to test out, just go to Gammon in Org, Criipling poison on main hand, and aggro him using feint. Every third feint or so, he'll get the poison.

Edit: After going back and trying it again i can't seem to reproduce my initial result, so my original observation was either a bug in the game occasionally causing non-damaging attacks to proc poisons or my memory is just simply wrong. I tend to believe the latter.

Last edited by Darwyn : 01/18/08 at 12:57 AM. Reason: Faulty observation
#1028SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Koosai
I've run into a problem recently, I'm getting threat capped more and more often. Mostly this is due to the fact that our MT stacks avoidance, which is fine, just makes it hard for me to dps as much as I would like to. For example this evening on morogrim I had to vanish at around 90-92%. In addition my enhance shamman has just started twisting totems so while not perfect I still had salv and grace of air. I was also attempting to get feint into my cycle, which pretty much resulted in me keeping SnD up and getting a rupture off every other cycle. This was also before I got Talon off him and was still using spiteblade, now I'm sure it will only get worse. I didn't end up being threat capped at the end as I got graved three times in a row at the end, but from the rate I was closing before that I certainly would have before vanish came back up. Does anyone have any recomendations of how to avoid this? If this keeps up I will probably end up specing Hemo to get a shorter vanish. The only thing I can really think of currently is to try dps slower at the begining so that I can vanish at 85% or so.
#1029SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Hagareno
Originally Posted by Koosai View Post
I've run into a problem recently, I'm getting threat capped more and more often. Mostly this is due to the fact that our MT stacks avoidance, which is fine, just makes it hard for me to dps as much as I would like to. For example this evening on morogrim I had to vanish at around 90-92%. In addition my enhance shamman has just started twisting totems so while not perfect I still had salv and grace of air. I was also attempting to get feint into my cycle, which pretty much resulted in me keeping SnD up and getting a rupture off every other cycle. This was also before I got Talon off him and was still using spiteblade, now I'm sure it will only get worse. I didn't end up being threat capped at the end as I got graved three times in a row at the end, but from the rate I was closing before that I certainly would have before vanish came back up. Does anyone have any recomendations of how to avoid this? If this keeps up I will probably end up specing Hemo to get a shorter vanish. The only thing I can really think of currently is to try dps slower at the begining so that I can vanish at 85% or so.
Give your tank ~ 10 k threat before you start dps, if you have salv on and use feint after a few attacks to begin with you should be fine. If you aren't, vanish. If you still get anywhere near your MT on a boss like morogrim he is doing something wrong.
#1030SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Darktangent
Relating to the table you have given for evaluating items, how does dps factor in for weapons? I'm trying to decide whether the slightly better stats on Akil'zon's Talonblade - Items - World of Warcraft are worth losing 2 dps to Merciless Gladiator's Quickblade - Items - World of Warcraft .

Also, I need a convincing arguement to persuade my Huntard guild leader not to take DST, seeing as it is the best rogue trinket in the game. His arguement is that it is also the best hunter trinket in the game, though I haven't seen any illidan geared hunters using it.

For future reference, how do I link items correctly?
#1031SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Koosai
Originally Posted by Hagareno View Post
Give your tank ~ 10 k threat before you start dps, if you have salv on and use feint after a few attacks to begin with you should be fine. If you aren't, vanish. If you still get anywhere near your MT on a boss like morogrim he is doing something wrong.
Yes, I suspect he is doing something wrong. I am going to try to talk to him and get him to do more tps, but until he does that will not solve my problem. You implied that I might not need to vanish if I give him a 10k head start, that is not anywhere near the case. I can't say what his threat was at when I started dpsing, but I had the shaman threat reduction totem in addition to salv and was using feint when it was up the whole fight. Does anyone have any ideas for a cycle that works feint in and still manages to keep a decent rupture uptime?
#1032SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Koosai
Originally Posted by Darktangent View Post
Relating to the table you have given for evaluating items, how does dps factor in for weapons? I'm trying to decide whether the slightly better stats on Akil'zon's Talonblade - Items - World of Warcraft are worth losing 2 dps to Merciless Gladiator's Quickblade - Items - World of Warcraft .

Also, I need a convincing arguement to persuade my Huntard guild leader not to take DST, seeing as it is the best rogue trinket in the game. His arguement is that it is also the best hunter trinket in the game, though I haven't seen any illidan geared hunters using it.
Both of those OHs will be roughly the same, for some people one will be *slightly* better, I would go for which ever you get first. The s2 sword is barely the winner for me. About DST my understanding and what my guild hunters seem to think is that Tsunami Talisman is the best hunter trinket (atleast at our progression level) and that DST is very nice for them it isn't the best. You might not be able to convince him to pass it to you, but it could be worth a shot to work out a deal to pass TT to him if he passes DST to you. This is assuming you are at/close to Leo, can't tell from your gear as it is pvp and armory wouldn't let me look at your guild.
#1033SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2bariel
I think it's your tank who need some advices, not you. Catching a tank on threat having salvation AND tranquil air (and even using feint) is really strange, not to say impossible. ( especially on fight like morogrim)
I know it won't help you in any matter but on morogrim i start dps when tank has ~7k threat and never has to use feint (not even vanish in most cases). One or two water tombs u might get act like uber_feint if u want to know
Just saying that so you will realize that starting ~7k threat after tank and simply dpsing without any kind of active agro reduction from your side IS possible, Everything is up to your tank
#1034SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2adun
Originally Posted by Koosai View Post
Yes, I suspect he is doing something wrong. I am going to try to talk to him and get him to do more tps, but until he does that will not solve my problem. You implied that I might not need to vanish if I give him a 10k head start, that is not anywhere near the case. I can't say what his threat was at when I started dpsing, but I had the shaman threat reduction totem in addition to salv and was using feint when it was up the whole fight. Does anyone have any ideas for a cycle that works feint in and still manages to keep a decent rupture uptime?
İ have heartless in MH(from ZA) and s2 sword on OH, waiting our tank 10k threat. Just using 2-3 feign and like you at %90 using vanish. İ havent any threat problem and our shaman continues wf totem and strength of earth totem. im using my cd's after vanish like BF,AR, haste poitons etc.İ havent any threat problem especially after vanish. Morogrim is a hard-hitting boss, maybe your tank making something different for surviving.

Generally tank-spank, non-aggro reseting bosses are no problem for me like morogrim.
#1035SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2folderol
Originally Posted by Koosai View Post
I've run into a problem recently, I'm getting threat capped more and more often. Mostly this is due to the fact that our MT stacks avoidance, which is fine, just makes it hard for me to dps as much as I would like to. For example this evening on morogrim I had to vanish at around 90-92%. In addition my enhance shamman has just started twisting totems so while not perfect I still had salv and grace of air. I was also attempting to get feint into my cycle, which pretty much resulted in me keeping SnD up and getting a rupture off every other cycle. This was also before I got Talon off him and was still using spiteblade, now I'm sure it will only get worse. I didn't end up being threat capped at the end as I got graved three times in a row at the end, but from the rate I was closing before that I certainly would have before vanish came back up. Does anyone have any recomendations of how to avoid this? If this keeps up I will probably end up specing Hemo to get a shorter vanish. The only thing I can really think of currently is to try dps slower at the begining so that I can vanish at 85% or so.
If you are threat capped that much, your warrior definitely needs help on improving his TPS. He's holding back the whole raid dps and will cause you to wipe due to insufficient rdps on enrage timer bosses.

As an interim solution to keep your cycles as optimal as possible, I'd suggest to respec to hemo trispec 11/28/22 or 11/27/23, dropping one point of dirty deeds for preparation (and 2 points of elusiveness).
That build is definitely not the absolute maximum dps you can do (that's irrelevant when you're in a threat capped situation) but it will give you plenty of vanishes which will ensure that you never need to include feint in your cycle, except maybe one or two very early in the encounter before your first vanish.
And it may also help increase the warrior TPS thanks to the hemo debuff

When your warrior gets his act together, you can respec to whatever max dps template you prefer.
#1036SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Karmon
Originally Posted by Darwyn View Post
As regarding Cheap Shot applying poisons....
This is most likly the autoattack (that starts as soon you use a "spell") having a lucky procc at the same time the Cheap Shot (or other opener) lands.
#1037SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Zujamar
Originally Posted by Darwyn View Post
As regarding Cheap Shot applying poisons, I think that might be true, since I've myself experienced applying poisons with feint. It's easy to test out, just go to Gammon in Org, Criipling poison on main hand, and aggro him using feint. Every third feint or so, he'll get the poison.

Edit: After going back and trying it again i can't seem to reproduce my initial result, so my original observation was either a bug in the game occasionally causing non-damaging attacks to proc poisons or my memory is just simply wrong. I tend to believe the latter.
I've managed to apply poison with non-damaging abilities on mobs several times in different circumstances (granted, 'feinting' DP on sheeped mobs in heroics wasn't the brightest of my ideas).
#1038SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Littlefinger
The OP lists Ashtounge Talisman of Lethality as the next tier down after DST along with Madness of the Betrayer but ahead of WSC and TT. However in the Rogue DPS spreadsheet the AToL is far inferior to WSC both in early BT gear and still later in late BT gear. What's the reason for this? How good is the AToL compared to WSC and TT? Is it faulty modeling in the spreadsheet or is it overvalued in the OP in this thread perhaps? In the spreadsheet it's modelled for a standard Combat Sword rogue with no extra armor penetration on gear.
#1039SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2robfang
Originally Posted by Littlefinger View Post
The OP lists Ashtounge Talisman of Lethality as the next tier down after DST along with Madness of the Betrayer but ahead of WSC and TT. However in the Rogue DPS spreadsheet the AToL is far inferior to WSC both in early BT gear and still later in late BT gear. What's the reason for this? How good is the AToL compared to WSC and TT? Is it faulty modeling in the spreadsheet or is it overvalued in the OP in this thread perhaps? In the spreadsheet it's modelled for a standard Combat Sword rogue with no extra armor penetration on gear.
In the rogue DPS spreadsheet, currently, armor penetration procs are handled by averaging the armor penetration over the uptime of the proc. However, it is known that this approach is faulty. Thus, both Warp Spring Coil and Executioner enchant are undervalued. The problem is known by dontmindme, he will probably remodel the procs it in the upcoming releases.
#1040SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Littlefinger
Originally Posted by robfang View Post
In the rogue DPS spreadsheet, currently, armor penetration procs are handled by averaging the armor penetration over the uptime of the proc. However, it is known that this approach is faulty. Thus, both Warp Spring Coil and Executioner enchant are undervalued. The problem is known by dontmindme, he will probably remodel the procs it in the upcoming releases.
Well, if WSC is undervalued in the spreadsheet then doesn't that mean it's even more ahead of AToL then? Depending on gear WSC is perhaps 15-20 DPS higher than AToL in my spreadsheet atm so if it in reality is even more than why is AToL rated higher in this thread?
#1041SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Dohom
Wha...?

So I don't know much about numbers... and I am fairly new to actually calculating out what is better than what... But I play a rogue on my server with a 20 41 0 spec with an envenom rotation of something like Xs/5e. I am only beat out by beast mastery hunters as fair as raid dps goes (so long as its not a poison immune boss like VR). I read your post about rupture but the numbers still dont add up to me... My envenom crits often. I have a 25% crit rating with swords and it can hit upwards of 1500 to 3000 easily and every now and then 4000. Fully raid buff without mongoose procs I have a 31% crit. 33 if I was fortunate enough to hook up with a shammy for grace of air. So if I usually hit for 1100 without criting and crit for 1500 to 3000, how is a rupture better? A 5r does 1000 damage plus24% of your AP. I have 1800 ap. so that would be like 432 added damage... 1432 damage. And you cant crit with rupture, right? So how is it better? I dont doubt you guys know what youre doing I just wanna understand.
#1042SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2robfang
Originally Posted by Littlefinger View Post
Well, if WSC is undervalued in the spreadsheet then doesn't that mean it's even more ahead of AToL then? Depending on gear WSC is perhaps 15-20 DPS higher than AToL in my spreadsheet atm so if it in reality is even more than why is AToL rated higher in this thread?
Sorry, I forgot to state that AToL will get a revision too.
#1043SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Ozzmar
Originally Posted by Dohom View Post
So I don't know much about numbers... and I am fairly new to actually calculating out what is better than what... But I play a rogue on my server with a 20 41 0 spec with an envenom rotation of something like Xs/5e. I am only beat out by beast mastery hunters as fair as raid dps goes (so long as its not a poison immune boss like VR). I read your post about rupture but the numbers still dont add up to me... My envenom crits often. I have a 25% crit rating with swords and it can hit upwards of 1500 to 3000 easily and every now and then 4000. Fully raid buff without mongoose procs I have a 31% crit. 33 if I was fortunate enough to hook up with a shammy for grace of air. So if I usually hit for 1100 without criting and crit for 1500 to 3000, how is a rupture better? A 5r does 1000 damage plus24% of your AP. I have 1800 ap. so that would be like 432 added damage... 1432 damage. And you cant crit with rupture, right? So how is it better? I dont doubt you guys know what youre doing I just wanna understand.
There are a couple things to consider:

- Envenom can be resisted, which blows your combo points - Rupture can be dodged, but you don't lose your points
- Deadly Poison continues ticking when you Rupture, but not when you Envenom. If you -really- want to see why Rupture is a better choice than Envenom, look at how much that 5-stack of Deadly Poison is doing that wouldn't be there otherwise.

The thing that concerns me though is that you said you're running a cycle using Envenom. Either you have some very good hit rating, or you're poisoning your main hand sword (which is a BIG no-no). Saying that your shaman is dropping Grace of Air makes me think I may be right, but I sure hope not.

Ideally, you would only have Deadly Poison on your offhand, and allow your shaman to drop Windfury (which a Deadly Poison on your main hand would override). This provides much higher DPS, and consequentially would make an Envenom cycle harder to maintain. Enter: Rupture.
#1044SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2 Hanos
Originally Posted by Koosai View Post
I've run into a problem recently, I'm getting threat capped more and more often. Mostly this is due to the fact that our MT stacks avoidance, which is fine, just makes it hard for me to dps as much as I would like to. For example this evening on morogrim I had to vanish at around 90-92%. In addition my enhance shamman has just started twisting totems so while not perfect I still had salv and grace of air. I was also attempting to get feint into my cycle, which pretty much resulted in me keeping SnD up and getting a rupture off every other cycle. This was also before I got Talon off him and was still using spiteblade, now I'm sure it will only get worse. I didn't end up being threat capped at the end as I got graved three times in a row at the end, but from the rate I was closing before that I certainly would have before vanish came back up. Does anyone have any recomendations of how to avoid this? If this keeps up I will probably end up specing Hemo to get a shorter vanish. The only thing I can really think of currently is to try dps slower at the begining so that I can vanish at 85% or so.
Morogrim is special as I mention below, I always asked our shaman to twist in Tranquil Air for the first 25% or so, not only for the rogues but also for himself, by that point you should be fine, and when you start catching up vanish. Also, if your tank is socketing his gear with anything other then +12 Stam gems at that level you need to have a long talk with him. Stamina is going to allow him to take bigger hits, generate more rage, and more threat, avoidance is good, but you get plenty of it from gear without socketing for it.

Originally Posted by Hagareno View Post
Give your tank ~ 10 k threat before you start dps, if you have salv on and use feint after a few attacks to begin with you should be fine. If you aren't, vanish. If you still get anywhere near your MT on a boss like morogrim he is doing something wrong.
Ok, this is just wrong, I rode the tank on just about every Morogrim kill, normally finishing somewhere between 100-108% threat, including a vanish. Morogrim is unique in that me has an ability that causes your tank to hit slower, and thus his rage generation at the beginning is rather gimped, not to mention the Heroic Strike is tied to auto attack speed, so slower attacks = fewer heroics = less threat.

Originally Posted by Darktangent View Post
Also, I need a convincing arguement to persuade my Huntard guild leader not to take DST, seeing as it is the best rogue trinket in the game. His arguement is that it is also the best hunter trinket in the game, though I haven't seen any illidan geared hunters using it.
This is normally due to the fact that Illidan killing guilds have intelligent loot systems that make sure loot gets to the right people. DST is the best rogue trinket in the game, and probably the best warrior trinket as well, whereas Tsunami Talisman, Madness, the Ashtongue Trinket and possibly even Hourglass of the Unraveler are better for hunters. If you end up getting a ton of DSTs sure a hunter can pick one up, but taking it over a rogue who you know is decent and is going to stick around is just stupid.

Originally Posted by Littlefinger View Post
The OP lists Ashtounge Talisman of Lethality as the next tier down after DST along with Madness of the Betrayer but ahead of WSC and TT. However in the Rogue DPS spreadsheet the AToL is far inferior to WSC both in early BT gear and still later in late BT gear. What's the reason for this? How good is the AToL compared to WSC and TT? Is it faulty modeling in the spreadsheet or is it overvalued in the OP in this thread perhaps? In the spreadsheet it's modelled for a standard Combat Sword rogue with no extra armor penetration on gear.
This depends on your cycle, and whether you tailor your play to max out the trinket. My original feeling was that it couldn't be right, however, if you let your energy tick to almost full before doing a finisher, and are using the 4s/5r or 5s/5r cycle, you can get in 3-5 Sinister Strikes during the buff, which means that instead of looking at the average value (as I think the DPS Spreadsheet does), you are looking at a much higher effective crit rate on your attacks. Trinkets still come down to get what you can when you can, personally I use WSC and Madness, and still plan to pick up the next DST that drops (long story but basically my luck on them has sucked), and I have the Ashtongue in the bank because most of the time I prefer passive trinket, however I have debated pulling the Ashtongue back out for higher armor bosses.
#1045SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
robfang
Originally Posted by Dohom View Post
So I don't know much about numbers... and I am fairly new to actually calculating out what is better than what... But I play a rogue on my server with a 20 41 0 spec with an envenom rotation of something like Xs/5e. I am only beat out by beast mastery hunters as fair as raid dps goes (so long as its not a poison immune boss like VR). I read your post about rupture but the numbers still dont add up to me... My envenom crits often. I have a 25% crit rating with swords and it can hit upwards of 1500 to 3000 easily and every now and then 4000. Fully raid buff without mongoose procs I have a 31% crit. 33 if I was fortunate enough to hook up with a shammy for grace of air. So if I usually hit for 1100 without criting and crit for 1500 to 3000, how is a rupture better? A 5r does 1000 damage plus24% of your AP. I have 1800 ap. so that would be like 432 added damage... 1432 damage. And you cant crit with rupture, right? So how is it better? I dont doubt you guys know what youre doing I just wanna understand.
While there was a long explanation for this issue, I will try to cut it short.

1st, rupture costs 25 energy instead of 35. 10 energy usually means 300 damage. So, you lose 300 damage by using a 35 energy finisher for the start.
2nd, your envenom hits for (1250*0.7+2500*0.3)=1625 on average
3rd, your rupture hits for 1432 damage. If you add the 10 energy gain by using rupture, it becomes 1732 damage (which can be further improved by mangle on the mob.
4th, you lose all of your deadly poison charges on the mob. You lose many poison damage there.

Last edited by robfang : 01/18/08 at 11:21 AM. Reason: Typo
#1046SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Koosai
Originally Posted by Hanos View Post
Morogrim is special as I mention below, I always asked our shaman to twist in Tranquil Air for the first 25% or so, not only for the rogues but also for himself, by that point you should be fine, and when you start catching up vanish. Also, if your tank is socketing his gear with anything other then +12 Stam gems at that level you need to have a long talk with him. Stamina is going to allow him to take bigger hits, generate more rage, and more threat, avoidance is good, but you get plenty of it from gear without socketing for it.
Our tank actually is in mostly BT/MH gear, he took a break from wow while he was in the top guild on our server and just started playing again a bit ago, but regardless he stacks stam/avoidance. I think he sockets mostly for stam, but either way his rage bar will be full after the first 10-20 seconds of the fight anyway, he was not rage starved he just doesn't have much in his gear that would boost his tps. I didn't realize that morogrim slowed attacks, that makes me less concerned. I guess another part of the issue is that I'm still not 100% accoustomed to monitoring my threat, as almost 100% of SSC/TK has either a decent amount of not in melee range or some aggro reset built into the fights.
#1047SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2 Shaker
Our tank is in mix/match T4/T5 and the only people who have threat issues on Morogrim are the warriors and enh shaman. I ride him pretty close till about 80%, vanish, and never catch up. Then again, we keep the feral in his group and have an expose weakness hunter, so his TPS is pretty slick on those fights. He does NOT have a shaman for Morogrim, however.
#1048SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2 Aldriana
Originally Posted by Littlefinger View Post
The OP lists Ashtounge Talisman of Lethality as the next tier down after DST along with Madness of the Betrayer but ahead of WSC and TT. However in the Rogue DPS spreadsheet the AToL is far inferior to WSC both in early BT gear and still later in late BT gear. What's the reason for this? How good is the AToL compared to WSC and TT? Is it faulty modeling in the spreadsheet or is it overvalued in the OP in this thread perhaps? In the spreadsheet it's modelled for a standard Combat Sword rogue with no extra armor penetration on gear.
Fundamentally, I wouldn't trust the Rogue DPS Sheet very much on trinket effects, since they tend to be the sort of challenging, fiddly effects that give that sheet problems. Thus, for this particular question, I would argue that the Rogue Gear sheet is the better resource, and what one finds with it is that Dragonspine is clearly tops, and at low-T6 itemization, Ashtongue is clearly 2nd, with Madness/WSC in the next tier, followed by Tsunami Talisman/Berserker's Call. However, at high-T6 levels of itemization - particularly if you're using Executioner - WSC/Madness catch up with Ashtongue and, in fact, WSC becomes quite plausibly the 2nd best trinket in the game.

For instance, EAP values for me with my current gear in typical raid buffs:
DST: 215
WSC: 189
AToL: 185
MotB: 177
TT: 155
BC: 150

If, however, I downgrade my gear to, say, what I was wearing 2 months ago, I get these values instead:
DST: 207
AToL: 193
MotB: 176
WSC: 176
TT: 155
BC: 150

Basically: there's a lot of armor pen gear in T6 which increases the relative value of WSC and MotB; since WSC has more armor pen, it improves faster allowing it to claim the 2nd best trinket slot.
#1049SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Latito
On the topic of DST - While I agree it IS the best rogue trinket ingame, it is also the best Warrior AND Hunter trinket ingame. For rogues, we have AToL and WSC which are both *nearly* as good. Warriors and Hunters have.. TT and Beserkers Call? Not sure how Madness factors in for them, but its about 4th best for rogues. In terms of drop rates and availability.. it does sort of make sense to let a hunter have DST in the long run since every rogue will get a AToL and its pretty hard to not get a WSC. That said, if your Hunter guildmate is a Huntard and can't maintain any sort of proper cycle.. or the warrior thinks 2H dps w/o Slam or Blood Frenzy is a great idea... well yea, the rogue will make best use out of it.

This of course changes if for instance Gruul is your guild's progression fight and AToL, WSC and TT are out of the picture.

What I'm trying to say is - giving DST to a rogue for the SOLE reason that he is a rogue and the "competition" is a hunter makes no sense.



As for the Morogrim threat thing:
Likely the main issue is improving your tanks TPS. Get him a Shaman who drops WF. Not GoA, WF. Having a feral druid in there can't hurt and since you already have a shaman dropping WF, a dps warrior (battle shout) can't hurt either. That said, if you only have 1 dps warrior - give him to the melee group of course. If your tank is in danger of dieing, you can likely fill the 3 remaining spots (tank + shaman being first 2) in the tank group with something a bit better than another warrior. A warlock (imp), a pally (devo aura), a tree (ToL), etc are all good choices for survivability.
Next, get your tank to read The Protection Warrior . It has excellent information. As a 2-3 sentence general summary.. Use Shield Slam, Revenge, Devastate, Devastate as your primary "GCD" rotation. If you have enough extra rage to sustain that rotation, slip in as many Heroic Strikes as you can while maintaining the GCD rotation - on Morogrim you should have no problem keeping Heroic Strikes up most if not all of the time. Get some hit rating and/or Expertise to up TPS.

As for how to survive in the meantime.. Start the fight after 5-6k tank threat with auto attack and feint only. Keep SnD up if you want - singe SS and just keep refreshing off of Ruthlessness procs until you need to SS again. The idea is that you are doing ~60% of your total dps and feinting on CD - the more you can feint, the more dmg you can do in a threat-capped situation. The longer you can wait to vanish - the more of a threat lead your tank has and the more threat you dump. Hold off as long as you possibly can. As for a cycle? 5s/5r should be fine with 3x feint in there. Drop to a 4-point rupture if you need I guess to lower your dps (wow.. that felt weird typing that) and save you some energy (40 energy for 1 less SS, 5 more for less ruthlessness, 35 net savings).



Rupture vs Envenom:
Yep, just like everyone said:
-25 energy vs 35
-loss of DP stack
-Mangle (can't compare to Storm Strike since *someone* will use those debuffs anyways - its not really a raid dps gain, especially if you have an ele sham [or moonkin?])
-etc
#1050SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2royaljester
I would say, from a RDPS standpoint, avoidance is the worst thing a warrior can stack. If you don't have enough healing to keep an adequately geared tank up on most any ssc/tk fight, you should recruit healers, not get the tank to stack avoidance.

A tank can only "not" take damage so often, there will be strings of hits that avoidance can't mitigate and if the healing isn't there, he'll still get trucked. From a rogue standpoint, its' just as bad. If the tank is avoiding the attacks, all that rage and possible tps is lost and thus all the possible dps is lost. I've yet to see a t5+ tank gear/gem for avoidance and win as the MT. If you are tanking the second illidan flame, maybe avoidance is best, you'll have made enough threat by that time to cover...but overall, never, ever be an avoidance tank.

As for the whole "vanish at 90%". If a vanish at 90% is saving you from pulling agro again, why not wait like 10-15 secs before attacking period and then going all out? I can literally vanish at 65-70% and still come withing 5-10% of the tanks total threat by the end of the fight. I normally wait for 15-20k threat from the tank on that fight and then vanish around 60%. But, like the others have said, its your tank, not you, don't worry. Get him fixed and you'll probably see a lot of raid encounters made easier, especially if you've heard locks or mages gripe about pulling agro or sitting at the ceiling the whole fight.
#1051SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2 ratdump
First off, thanks for this thread, the OP and many of the following replies have been an interesting read and they've helped me stave off boredom at work

Anyway, just wanted to comment on a couple things...

Regarding threat problems on Morogrim; honestly to me this sounds like crappy tanking. I don't have the best gear in the world by any means but our last Moro kill my DPS was 1500 and I go pretty much balls to the wall right from the beginning. The only lead time I give the tank is pretty much the time it takes for me to walk from the back of the pillar to the boss, so like 5 seconds at most. Threat wise I ride the MT pretty hard but I never pass him and the earliest I've ever needed to vanish is like 50%. Dunno, maybe you're doing considerably more DPS (certainly possible) or maybe your MT is just not generating much threat. I've never felt it was an even remotely agro sensitive fight though (for rogues anyway).

As far as trinkets go I was lucky to get DST back in the day when Gruul was considered hard but I've had shit for luck on trinkets since then so I'm still using hourglass as my 2nd trinket. It's interesting to read about everyones opinions on trinkets, espically armor ignoring ones such as WSC....

...which brings me to something that's been on my mind lately. I wish there was a more reliable way to quickly model the effectiveness of ArP vs other stats but it seems to be affected by so many non-linear things that figuring out a basic per-point value is very difficult. Using the gear/dps spreadsheets helps with this obviously but it would be nice if there was an easier way to weight ArP vs other stats accurately.
#1052SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Mojofabulous
A lot of work has been done on armor reduction passively and as a proc. The simplest way to see the results is to download the rogue gear spreadsheet and switch out different trinkets.
#1053SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2 Aldriana
Well, to some extent it depends on your tank. If you're that threat-limited and working on Tidewalker, it's probably safe to assume that the fight is reasonably long (8-10 min) - hence, you really should be planning around 2 vanishes rather than one.

For instance, when I was doing Tidewalker the guild's MT had extremely low aggro, so in order to stay behind him I'd wait to open fire, feint regularly, and generally play very conservatively on aggro down to 85-90% (sitting at 95% tank aggro all the way down), vanish, and then burn all out; I'd catch him again before the end of the fight, but usually there was enough of a lead that vanish was up again by the time I caught him the 2nd time. So I'd vanish once at 90 and once at 40-50 or so, and it worked fine.

Working out the numbers: say you generate 20% more aggro than the tank. Thus, in the 5 minutes between vanishes, you generate as much aggro as the tank generates in 6 minutes. Hence, you need to give him a 1 minute head start to avoid catching up - so vanish 1 minute into the fight, and you're pretty much good. And 1 minute into a fight that can easily take 10+ minutes, and we're talking a vanish right around 90%.

Of course, if you have to choose between waiting a bit too long to vanish or blowing it a bit too early, it's better to wait longer - so you might want to wait till 85 just to be sure, but you get the idea.

The numbers also change if you overaggro the tank by more (or less) than 20%; however, the less you beat him by the sooner you can vanish the first time, and if you're beating your tank by more than 20%, something is usually very wrong. So blowing at 85-90 should usually work pretty well.

The other thing to keep in mind is that there's no fundamental difference between opening fire (almost) immediately and holding back versus waiting to start and then going all out. The total amount of damage you do is the same, so personally in an aggro limited situation I prefer to open early just with autoattack and then add SS in once the tank has a decent lead. The added advantage of this is since you start generating a small amount of aggro right away, you can also start feinting right away, and every feint in an aggro-limited situation is pure added damage. Similarly, in highly threat-limited situations, making use of Anaesthetic Poison can make sense.

Long story short: I find the best way to deal with low-aggro situations is to make use of all -aggro abilities you have at your disposal to control aggro for the first little bit of the fight, and plan for two vanishes over the fight duration.
#1054SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Left
Originally Posted by ratdump View Post
...which brings me to something that's been on my mind lately. I wish there was a more reliable way to quickly model the effectiveness of ArP vs other stats but it seems to be affected by so many non-linear things that figuring out a basic per-point value is very difficult. Using the gear/dps spreadsheets helps with this obviously but it would be nice if there was an easier way to weight ArP vs other stats accurately.
One way to do this is to use the equivalency values in the spreadsheets for your gear level.

1) Put in your current gear
2) Use the macro (DPS Spreadsheet) or find the appropriate sheet (Gear Spreadsheet) to get the equivalency table

You should be able to get a customized value for ArP for your particular spec and gear setup.

For me, for example, 10 ArP ~= 1.3 AGI

This is the best way I've found to deal with it, since the value of ArP goes up the more of it you have (or the less armor the boss has).
#1055SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Bloodsiren
combat daggersMH/swordsOH?

I want to first apologize if this question has already been brought up and I missed it, I have only discovered this forum recently and as much as I have tried to read through it all, I do sometimes miss the obvious. I also want to thank those of you who have put so much work into this because since reading here and working on my rotations and the correct gems/enchants as I can get them, I have seen a noticeable improvement in my dps in raids. I am math deficient though and statistics in particular is much like trying to read hierglyphics so I am struggling with a lot of the formulas posted on the forum and the spreadsheets. So I appreciate your patience with my question.

I'm currently specc'd combat daggers for raids weeknights and am speccing pvp weekends now to arena and start working towards arena weapons because of how OP they are and faster to get than the weapons in the instances my aid is progressing through. We have finished Kara and are regularly killing Gruul and just beginning progression into SSC/TK and ZA. I have 2 t4 pieces currently. I do not dispute that combat swords is more dps, I see it for myself regularly, but I enjoy playing daggers more and with the help of this forum in particular, have still been able to maintain high dps in raids to stay in the top 5-6 on trash pulls and top 3-5 on bosses, some of this could be improved mainly by gear as I have plenty of room to improve there, and that is the reason why I'm looking at pvp weapons now. So I would like to stay daggers so that I can enjoy many of the talents rogues have the require a MH dagger. However, I was looking at the arena off-hand swords and they seem to offer more dps than the daggers, though not quite as fast. But still faster than the offhand I have from Kara right now (Emerald Ripper).

So I'm trying to decide if I should keep the combat dagger specc and just get the S1 offhand dagger to start with while I work on earning arena points, or if I should consider moving some points around to get 4 points in swords on top of the 5pts in dagger specialization, and get the S1 offhand sword instead. To do it, I had to lose a point in ruthlessness and have no points in lethality. And a copy of my proposed specc would be at: World Of Warcraft Talent Calculator

My thoughts behind this is that it might be better dps in a sustained boss fight with the offhand sword sometimes getting the extra procc on my mainhand then if I had the offhand dagger with the +5% crit, because I believe, tho possibly wrong, that I only lose the 5% crit on my offhand attacks, but not on my MH since I would have a MH dagger. Since I am truly awful at math, I am asking for some help with this. And if this the dumbest noobest thing and obviously wrong, I know you all will make sure I know that. It might be best to put those 4 points I have in swords elsewhere, like lethality and just get the slightly faster offhand S1 dagger for now while I work towards S2/S3 gear. I just haven't found a combat dagger/sword conversation yet.
#1056SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2 Aldriana
Hybrid dagger/sword tends not to work very well, for a couple reasons.

First, relative to hybrid fist/sword or mace/sword, you're losing more valuable talents. Fist/Sword is only losing points in poison talents, which is a fairly small source of DPS. Dagger/sword has to give up, like, Lethality, or something of comparable worth; hence, you lose a lot more by OHing a sword.

Secondly, the power of OH sword spec comes from the fact that your weapons are of vastly dissimilar speeds. When you have a MH Sword/Fist/Mace, you're making unnormalized attacks at 2.6+ speed, whereas with a MH dagger, the sword spec procs will only be at 1.8 speed, which reduces the advantage you gain by a third.

Hence, sword spec benefits a MH dagger build a lot less than it does a MH Fist/Mace/Sword build, and it requires giving up more to get, so it tends not to be particularly value.

For more information on your specific case, consult your local spreadsheet.
#1057SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Dontmindme
Originally Posted by robfang View Post
In the rogue DPS spreadsheet, currently, armor penetration procs are handled by averaging the armor penetration over the uptime of the proc. However, it is known that this approach is faulty. Thus, both Warp Spring Coil and Executioner enchant are undervalued. The problem is known by dontmindme, he will probably remodel the procs it in the upcoming releases.
Ashtongue has its issues in the DPS spreadsheet. I've recently looked over it's calculations and the calculations look reasonable but someone had nerfed it to 70% of its calculated value because it seemed wrong. Now, removing that nerf is putting it a little higher than DST in the test build I was looking at, so I haven't decided what I'm doing with it yet. Ashtongue is clearly currently undervalued on the DPS sheet.

As to the Armor procs, both are currently in the DPS sheet as estimated % uptimes.

I'm hoping to improve that modeling soon, but in the meantime, if you are looking to the answer to which of the trinkets is best (or even the Mongoose vs. Executioner issue) I'd trust the comparison on the Gear spreadsheet more at this time.
#1058SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Xoiiku
Does anyone know if there is a specific stat that influences energy regeneration or is it just a static rate no matter what?

I know Adrenaline Rush increases the rate, but what is the default rate?

Thanks, and sorry if I missed it someplace, seems like I should know this.

Also, the hit cap that is listed is for a 28% miss rate against raid bosses, what is the hit cap for same level mobs?

^_^
#1059SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2 stabbymcgee
Originally Posted by Xoiiku View Post
Also, the hit cap that is listed is for a 28% miss rate against raid bosses, what is the hit cap for same level mobs?
Wowwiki Hit Rating

* v. Level 70 mob: 5.0% / dual-wield: 24%
Unless that number is wrong, which it could be, it's only a 4% difference between a same level mob and a +3.
#1060SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Jakani
Originally Posted by Xoiiku View Post
Does anyone know if there is a specific stat that influences energy regeneration or is it just a static rate no matter what?

I know Adrenaline Rush increases the rate, but what is the default rate?

Thanks, and sorry if I missed it someplace, seems like I should know this.
I'd agree that you should know this, and could probably figure it out if you just watched your energy bar.

We get 20 energy every 2 seconds. AR doubles that to 40 energy every 2 seconds.

This amount is not effected by any stat. However, certain talents do offer energy regen: Combat Potency and Relentless Strikes. Both are proc effects and do not affect the rate of energy regen/2 seconds.
#1061SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Xoiiku
Originally Posted by Jakani View Post
I'd agree that you should know this, and could probably figure it out if you just watched your energy bar.

We get 20 energy every 2 seconds. AR doubles that to 40 energy every 2 seconds.

This amount is not effected by any stat. However, certain talents do offer energy regen: Combat Potency and Relentless Strikes. Both are proc effects and do not affect the rate of energy regen/2 seconds.
Yeah, your info about the talents are obvious, and I wonder why you bothered to post that since it's largely irrelevant to my question. As well as being what I would consider, self evident information, available to anyone who's spent time looking at talent specs.

I was curious however if anything effected the ambient rate such as stat or level, and didn't assume that my energy regeneration was the same as everyone else's, because I hadn't run in to any information specifically regarding that mechanic yet. Don't assume that because I ask a question that has a potentially simple answer that I have overlooked the obvious.
#1062SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Valen
Originally Posted by Xoiiku View Post
Yeah, your info about the talents are obvious, and I wonder why you bothered to post that since it's largely irrelevant to my question. As well as being what I would consider, self evident information, available to anyone who's spent time looking at talent specs.

I was curious however if anything effected the ambient rate such as stat or level, and didn't assume that my energy regeneration was the same as everyone else's, because I hadn't run in to any information specifically regarding that mechanic yet. Don't assume that because I ask a question that has a potentially simple answer that I have overlooked the obvious.
Sorry, I really don't understand this. You are wearing t5 gear so naturally you should have played rogue for some time. But energy regeneration rate is something you can figure at level 1, yourself, by just hovering your mouse over your character bars. Also, you have of course seen how much your abilities cost and that everytime you would use them the same amount of energy would be consumed and see the ticks move your energy back up in a constant manner.

On top of that, you can see what each stat does on your character tab as well.

That's self evident information as you said.
#1063SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2aleksai
Solarian's Saphire

Hey all,

I'm a fury warrior who recently made a poor trinket choice and passed on one of my best trinkets cause I was so caught up on having to use Solarian's Saphire Solarian's Sapphire - Items - World of Warcraft .

Now my own carelessness asides, I need to know how much of a benefit this trinket--due to the 5/5 Commanding Presence it makes battle shout yield 470 AP Party Members--would be to the 2 rogues usually, theres also an enhance shammy and often a feral druid in the group but by the thread this is probably not the best place to ask for this info, in the melee group when I'm there. The trinket is for me a personal dps loss of 20-22ish, according to spreadsheet and other sites I've looked at its also a dps loss that increases with gear level, so before I make another dumb itemization error, I'd love for you to tell me if me gimping myself is worth it for you guys.
#1064SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Dontmindme
Well, looking at the default gear setup for a Combat Swords rogue in the Rogue DPS Spreadsheet, that trinket shows about a 29.43 dps gain for a single rogue (end of Tier 5 gear level). With the default gear setup (beginning Tier 4) its showing a 23.68 dps gain. I'd also guess the enhancement Shaman and the Feral Druid (if we are talking kitty and not offtank) would probably be gaining a similar benefit (assuming Feral Druids gain a benefit from buffed AP as I get a little confused about what does and does not help them).
#1065SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2 Aldriana
For me as a T6 rogue, 94 AP increases my actual DPS by about 29. At a T5 level of itemization it would be a little less, but, fundamentally: if you're in a group with one other melee DPSer, Solarian's Sapphire is borderline worthwhile. If there are two or more, it's almost certainly the best trinket you can use from a raid DPS perspective. Since you describe your group as usually 2 rogues + at least one other feral DPSer, you do probably want to be using it at all times.
#1066SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Busko
hey all dose the Scope that you can make with the plans from attunman work for melee to ?
As i dont see you can choose it in gear i would think its a no.
#1067SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Feist-Mok
Originally Posted by Busko View Post
hey all dose the Scope that you can make with the plans from attunman work for melee to ?
As i dont see you can choose it in gear i would think its a no.


You would think right. It only affects your ranged crit.
#1068SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Kazkûl
Eviscerate vs rupture (again? =P)

Hey there.

We are a guild that working our way though BT atm, anyway, We just had our second Teron kill, I ended up first on WWS with 1623 dps. I'm currently running with 4/5 T5, S3 swords and a normal combat sword spec (no imp evi). The other rogues ended at 1331 dps and 1291 dps. We were all in same group with 1 warrior and 1 enhanchment shaman. We all got almost exactly same gear, just one rogue running with Kael mace and S2 off hand mace instead. The other rogues were doing the normal 2 SnD and 5 rupture combo, I did same, but Used Eviscerate instead for finnisher to try it out.

Now i know rapture>Evi almost always, but my dps was higher, so i was thinking, maybe it have something to do with the 4/5 T5, i mean, it says the 200 damage wont make evi better then rapture, But what about the 4/5 bonus? it makes it FREE COST, so if you compare rapture to Evis with NO ENERGY cost, what's is the best one? It's good to point out we dont have any feral druid atm... ( Any ferals looking for a guild =P? ).

Maybe it's a good idea to use Evis every time you gain that buff? and rapture when you dont have it.
#1069SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2 songster
Makes sense - under those circumstances you're only interested in the damage per finisher, not the damage per energy, and in that case Eviscerate may come out better. It would depend on whether you have points in Imp. Eviscerate (unlikely), whether Mangle is up (likely) etc. Certainly worth investigating with your specific gear set / buffs.
#1070SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2 Aldriana
While it's possible that Eviscerate with T5 4/5 competes with Rupture (I doubt it, but I can't rule it out entirely), it's not why you beat the other two rogues. Rupture only adds about 100-150 DPS, and even if Eviscerate does a bit more, we're not talking a factor of 3 more. So the fact that you won by 300 DPS is a sign that something else is going on - seems likely that your other rogues are either a) significantly undergeared or b) violating one of the aforementioned commandments of Rogue DPS (in particular, one of the first 5). So I'd just be careful about drawing any conclusions based on that Teron kill on the Eviscerate/Rupture debate.

Anyway, lets break out some numbers. With, say, 2800 AP and 35% crit (not unreasonable with raid buffs) and no passive armor pen (usually the case for T5 rogues), a 100 DPS weapon, and a typical combat spec, we want to compare the damage from 4.4 Sinister Strikes and a Rupture to 4.4 Sinister Strikes and an Eviscerate, assuming 4/5 T5 procs.

So, lets see here. 1 Sinister Strike will do about (2.7 * 100 + 2800/14 *2.4 + 98)*(1 + 1.3*.35)*1.06 = 1323 base damage, reduced to 1096 by armor. So 4.4 SS will do 4822 damage.

1 Eviscerate does about (1135 + .15 * 2800) * (1.35) = 2100 average base damage, reduced by armor to 1739.

1 Rupture does (1000 + .24 * 2800) = 1672 damage without Mangle, or 2174 with Mangle.

So, observation 1: If you have Mangle, Rupture just plain does more damage. Hence, lets look at the nonMangled situation is a bit more detail.

If 4/5 T5 procs, the cycle does 4.4*40 - 25 = 151 energy either way. So the Eviscerate cycle has an energy efficiency of (4822 + 1739)/151 = 43.45 damage/energy, and the Rupture cycle has an energy efficiency of 43.01 damage per energy.

So, *if* 4/5 T5 is up, *and* you don't have Mangle, it may marginally make sense to drop an Eviscerate rather than a Rupture. In this example, if the buff was always up, you'd gain about 5 DPS by so doing.

However, using Eviscerate *all* the time is a mistake; while it's .44 damage/energy more efficient when it procs, it's 1.72 damage/energy less efficient without the proc. Hence, unless the set bonus is up 75%+ of the time when you're ready to drop a finisher, always using Eviscerate costs you damage.

So, the answer seems to be that you can gain maybe 2 DPS in an Unmangled situation by dropping Eviscerate while 4/5 T5 is up and Rupturing otherwise. But if you have Mangle, just always use Rupture.
#1071SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
 songster
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
1 Eviscerate does about (1135 + .15 * 2800) * (1.35) = 2100 average base damage, reduced by armor to 1739.
Where does the number 1135 come from?

Average unmodified damage for Rank 10 Eviscerate is 1045. +200 from the T5 2piece (which you necessarily have if you have the 4piece!) takes it to 1245. You also forgot the 6% bonus to Eviscerate from Aggression.


I calculate as follows:

5pt Eviscerate base damage = 985-1105, average 1045
Add 200 for the 2piece T5 = 1245
Add in the AP factor = (1245 + .15 * 2800) = 1665
Add 6% from Aggression = 1764.9
Multiply up by crit rate (35%) = 2382.6 average base damage, reduced to 1973 by armor.

Edit: Actually that's still underestimated because of Lethality / RED. Accounting for those takes it to at least 2430 / 2010, depending on whether Lethality and RED are multiplicative or additive.

Still not quite as good as Rupture+Mangle, but much closer.

And remember, this is before taking imp. Eviscerate into account. With 3/3 imp eviscerate, you'd get another factor of 1.15, to give an average base damage of ~2790 (~2310 after armor). That's considerably better than Rupture even allowing for Mangle. The loss of poison DPS (or Murder) you'd take from going for imp. eviscerate however means that it's not worth speccing that way unless you know the boss can't be poisoned/murdered.

Edit2: Actually....

3 points in Vile poisons loses you 12% * 75 DPS * .83 = 7.47 DPS. Assuming a cycle length of ~28 seconds, that's ~200 poison damage per cycle that you'd lose by speccing Imp Evis. instead of Vile Poisons. A fully talented Eviscerate has an advantage of at least 150 damage over Rupture + Mangle. Only a little more crit, and it'll be flat out better to spec for and use Eviscerate whenever the T5 4-piece proc is active, even if you have Mangle active.

So what it boils down to is - what is the uptime for the T5 proc? Will it be active for 100% of your finishers, or only 10% of them? If it has high uptime, it's actually not clear cut at all whether Eviscerate or Rupture is the better option.

Last edited by songster : 01/20/08 at 3:45 PM.
#1072SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2 Aldriana
Hmm, for some reason I was thinking Evis was base 935 average, so you're right about that. However, I would point out that Lethality doesn't apply to Eviscerate, so it should be 1763.9 * (1 + .35 * 1.06) = 2418 raw, reduced to 2003 by armor.

Closer? Sure. But Mangled Rupture still wins, as does unmangled unprocced rupture. So, admittedly, my numbers were a bit off, but I think the conclusion is still valid.

Regarding Improved Eviscerate: Yes, it helps, but it comes at the expense of Vile Poisons, which, on the average, will contribute more damage even if you're weaving Eviscerates in. So, yes, if you spec that way you can cement Eviscerate's viability in non-Mangled situations when you have a 4/5 proc... but you'll do less damage overall than if you took the poison talents.
#1073SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2 songster
Lethality - fair point. On the other hand, mace spec :-)

Conclusion seems clear enough though. If T5 4-piece procs and you don't have a feral druid, Eviscerate. If you do have a feral (i.e. Mangle is up), Rupture.

Might be worth some more detailed analysis in future though, to check out the impact of things like Executioner, WSC procs, mace spec etc. etc. I think it's certainly possible that for some people, it'll be worth using Eviscerate on T5 procs even if Mangle is up.
#1074SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2 Arawethion
It is worth a minor loss of DPS to hit the Expertise cap and have the nice convenience of being able to attack from the front? Right now, I have [Gloves of the Searing Grip] and [Shoulderpads of the Stranger]. If I equip my [Latro's Shifting Sword] and grab a [Brooch of Deftness], that's 67 rating, for 26 Expertise with talents, which is enough for 0 dodge (is it known whether the parry rate is the same?).
#1075SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2 songster
Parry rate appears to be higher (see tanking threads). - best guess is that it's double the dodge rate, i.e. 13% parry.

Given the amount of cleave damage going around in many fights, it would be irresponsible in any case to attack from the front even if you could cap expertise for parry - which with current itemisation you can't.
#1076SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2 Aldriana
Boss Parry rates are over 10%, so unless your expertise is 40+, you shouldn't be attacking from the front anyway as you risk parry-gibbing your tank. It's probably possible to get it that high, but it'd cost way too much DPS to be worth it.
#1077SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Feist-Mok
Originally Posted by songster View Post
Parry rate appears to be higher (see tanking threads). - best guess is that it's double the dodge rate, i.e. 13% parry.

Given the amount of cleave damage going around in many fights, it would be irresponsible in any case to attack from the front even if you could cap expertise for parry - which with current itemisation you can't.
On the subject of parry haste, I've been thinking a bit about ways to cope with being threat capped when working with an over or undergeared tank (too much avoidance, or too little dmg,etc.) On non cleaving mobs, (I.e. Where insta-gib isn't an issue), with managable melee damage would a rogue attacking from the front provide an appreciable increase in rage/reflective damage to help tank TPS? Considering that the rogue in question is concerned about being threatcapped from behind the DPS loss should be immaterial, so, is it worth it?
#1078SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
 songster
Originally Posted by Feist-Mok View Post
On the subject of parry haste, I've been thinking a bit about ways to cope with being threat capped when working with an over or undergeared tank (too much avoidance, or too little dmg,etc.) On non cleaving mobs, (I.e. Where insta-gib isn't an issue), with managable melee damage would a rogue attacking from the front provide an appreciable increase in rage/reflective damage to help tank TPS? Considering that the rogue in question is concerned about being threatcapped from behind the DPS loss should be immaterial, so, is it worth it?
Well, let's examine it. We avoid attacking from the front because:

1) Parry strings cause the tank to be insta-gibbed
2) Melee cleaves cause us to be insta-gibbed
3) Increase in incoming tank damage stresses the healers more, even in the absence of insta-gibs
4) Our DPS is severely reduced

Now, in a hypothetical situation where none of these four apply, it's conceivable that there might be an advantage (or at least no disadvantage) to attacking from in front.

You suggest two potential situations.

1) Tank is undergeared (insufficient damage). It seems a seriously bad idea to deliberately increase damage on a tank you know to be undergeared.

2) Tank is overgeared. In this case, frankly, who cares? If you need to increase the incoming damage on the tank, it makes more sense for the tank to slap on DPS gear than for you to attack from the front.

Last edited by songster : 01/20/08 at 6:20 PM. Reason: Edited to reduce sarcasm.
#1079SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Arindelest
Originally Posted by Feist-Mok View Post
On the subject of parry haste, I've been thinking a bit about ways to cope with being threat capped when working with an over or undergeared tank (too much avoidance, or too little dmg,etc.) On non cleaving mobs, (I.e. Where insta-gib isn't an issue), with managable melee damage would a rogue attacking from the front provide an appreciable increase in rage/reflective damage to help tank TPS? Considering that the rogue in question is concerned about being threatcapped from behind the DPS loss should be immaterial, so, is it worth it?
Tanks carry around various sets of gear for stamina and avoidance. I think the tank can certainly focus more on threat generation by himself instead of damage mitigation. I'd rather not have to worry about potentially getting myself killed.

Also, as Songster notes, if your tank (and, I assume, raid) is so overgeared for the content, why worry about your DPS output being a little lower than normal?
#1080SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2
Edited onPatch 2.3.2
Darktangent
Originally Posted by Hanos View Post


This is normally due to the fact that Illidan killing guilds have intelligent loot systems that make sure loot gets to the right people. DST is the best rogue trinket in the game, and probably the best warrior trinket as well, whereas Tsunami Talisman, Madness, the Ashtongue Trinket and possibly even Hourglass of the Unraveler are better for hunters. If you end up getting a ton of DSTs sure a hunter can pick one up, but taking it over a rogue who you know is decent and is going to stick around is just stupid.

We just Cleared up to Vashj our second week of raiding SSC, so he has the option of getting TT, however he believes that DST is the best trinket for hunters as well. I looked at an analysis thread of the trinket and it seems that there are mixed views of this, some claiming hunters get more attacks in any given minute than a rogue. I've heard that TT is better than DST for hunters but haven't seen any huntercraft threads to back that statement up.

Also I have a gear question. I've replaces a couple things with hit in favor of haste and more AP, one of them being netherblade gloves with the badges gloves. I'm thinking of getting the badges pants as well in favor of netherblade pants, but it would bring me down to only 260 hit rating. I would still have the 2 peice bonus, and I will be getting WSC next, so that will bring me back up to 281. Any thoughts as to what would be more valuable?

Last edited by Darktangent : 01/20/08 at 10:48 PM.
#1081SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2sehpiroth
What is the chance of the tier 5 four piece bonus procing?
#1082SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Koosai
Originally Posted by Darktangent View Post
Also I have a gear question. I've replaces a couple things with hit in favor of haste and more AP, one of them being netherblade gloves with the badges gloves. I'm thinking of getting the badges pants as well in favor of netherblade pants, but it would bring me down to only 260 hit rating. I would still have the 2 peice bonus, and I will be getting WSC next, so that will bring me back up to 281. Any thoughts as to what would be more valuable?
The only time I would argue that a certain hit rating is needed is the 9% hit to keep your specials from missing. If the pants are better for you they are better and you should get them. You really shouldn't worry about your hit rating staying above x.
#1083SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Arindelest
Originally Posted by Darktangent View Post

Also I have a gear question. I've replaces a couple things with hit in favor of haste and more AP, one of them being netherblade gloves with the badges gloves. I'm thinking of getting the badges pants as well in favor of netherblade pants, but it would bring me down to only 260 hit rating. I would still have the 2 peice bonus, and I will be getting WSC next, so that will bring me back up to 281. Any thoughts as to what would be more valuable?
There is no *magic* number regarding hit. Aldriana in particular has said this over and over. They are all just numbers, what actually matters is DPS. We want to maximize *DPS*, not hit, crit, or any stat. To do this, we take the gear whose stats contribute the most overall to DPS. So pick your gear based on what item is better, rather than some arbitrary idea that you *need* a certain amount of hit.
#1084SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2 pewsey
Originally Posted by Arindelest View Post
There is no *magic* number regarding hit. Aldriana in particular has said this over and over. They are all just numbers, what actually matters is DPS. We want to maximize *DPS*, not hit, crit, or any stat. To do this, we take the gear whose stats contribute the most overall to DPS. So pick your gear based on what item is better, rather than some arbitrary idea that you *need* a certain amount of hit.
The short answer is to check your new acquisitions using the various spreadsheets. They should give you the best answer.

Having said that, adding hit is almost certainly the best way to increase DPS on otherwise equivalent items. Normally this means gemming for hit.
#1085SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2 Shaker
Originally Posted by Arindelest View Post
There is no *magic* number regarding hit. Aldriana in particular has said this over and over. They are all just numbers, what actually matters is DPS. We want to maximize *DPS*, not hit, crit, or any stat. To do this, we take the gear whose stats contribute the most overall to DPS. So pick your gear based on what item is better, rather than some arbitrary idea that you *need* a certain amount of hit.
While this is true (and something I definitely want people to keep in mind), being below the yellow attack no-miss zone is going to be a larger loss in DPS than above it, so the value of hit isn't continuous at this point. THAT being said, no rogue who is even remotely reasonably geared/spec'd should have to worry about it due to the fact that you should have precision, and getting the 60-odd hit rating that you need on top of that is trivial.


Also, regarding hit gemming, as you get into T5ish gear, you tend to see Agi/Hit coming to very close competitiveness with eachother. Hit tends to edge it a little in a pure sustained situation, agi tends to edge hit in interrupted situations. For these reasons, I personally gem nearly everything with Glinting gems.
#1086SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2 Aldriana
Originally Posted by Shaker View Post
While this is true (and something I definitely want people to keep in mind), being below the yellow attack no-miss zone is going to be a larger loss in DPS than above it, so the value of hit isn't continuous at this point. THAT being said, no rogue who is even remotely reasonably geared/spec'd should have to worry about it due to the fact that you should have precision, and getting the 60-odd hit rating that you need on top of that is trivial.
True, although I'd note that the change in value at the yellow hit cap is not as large as most people expect. Hit below the yellow hit cap as roughly the same effect as expertise (reducing miss chance of both white and yellow attacks), and Expertise for most of us is only worth about 10% more than Hit above the yellow hit cap. So it's value increases, but it's not like it doubles or anything.

Now, for PvP, kicking, and that sort of thing, the fact that your attacks more reliably gives it something of an advantage beyond that, but, fundamentally: the change in the value of hit at the yellow hit cap, while nontrivial, is not so strong as to override the underlying point, which is that you should use whatever gear is best, regardless of which stats it has to get that way, even under the yellow hit cap.

Also, regarding hit gemming, as you get into T5ish gear, you tend to see Agi/Hit coming to very close competitiveness with each other. Hit tends to edge it a little in a pure sustained situation, agi tends to edge hit in interrupted situations. For these reasons, I personally gem nearly everything with Glinting gems.
Agreed. Particularly since agi also gives a bit of dodge, which has been known to be useful when a boss gets a bit out of position (or someone pulls aggro) and cleaves the melee, and on bosses (such as Zul'jin and Hex Lord in ZA) that have Whirlwind type abilities. I'm a bit believer in socketing everything with orange, although a few yellow gems work in here and there if my guild happens to be low on oranges at the time.
#1087SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Phanez
my question is, how is hemo swords only 2% below combat swords, when you can't get lethality, AR, or combat potency. Im considering going hemo swords, since no other rogue IS hemo, and the raid debuff is kind of appealing. Im just wondering if its worth doing over my personal dps loss from not being combat swords.
#1088SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Arindelest
Originally Posted by Phanez View Post
my question is, how is hemo swords only 2% below combat swords, when you can't get lethality, AR, or combat potency. Im considering going hemo swords, since no other rogue IS hemo, and the raid debuff is kind of appealing. Im just wondering if its worth doing over my personal dps loss from not being combat swords.
The big reason why Hemo is still competitive to some extent with the debuff factored in, is, well, Hemo. Hemorrhage is the best talent, point-for-point, in any tree. AR is not a big part of your DPS. Lethality, likewise, while good, is not as huge as you would think it is. Combat Potency is very powerful and that's basically the main reason why Combat Swords comes out on top for personal DPS; for raid DPS they're about equal.

Your decision will be partly based on your gear level. In Hyjal Combat vastly outperforms Hemo because Combat Swords' shorter cycles are much better for trash, and less reliance on Rupture as a source of damage (kind of trivial but a factor nevertheless). In addition, Combat scales up better with gear than Hemo does.
#1089SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Phanez
Originally Posted by Arindelest View Post
The big reason why Hemo is still competitive to some extent with the debuff factored in, is, well, Hemo. Hemorrhage is the best talent, point-for-point, in any tree. AR is not a big part of your DPS. Lethality, likewise, while good, is not as huge as you would think it is. Combat Potency is very powerful and that's basically the main reason why Combat Swords comes out on top for personal DPS; for raid DPS they're about equal.

Your decision will be partly based on your gear level. In Hyjal Combat vastly outperforms Hemo because Combat Swords' shorter cycles are much better for trash, and less reliance on Rupture as a source of damage (kind of trivial but a factor nevertheless). In addition, Combat scales up better with gear than Hemo does.

erm, i thought hemo scaled better, since its a % dmg, whereas SS is a fixed amount..
#1090SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2 Aldriana
Depends on how you define the damage of Hemo. What keeps it at all close is the debuff, which is a very large chunk of damage that basically doesn't scale at all. So, setting aside for the moment the scaling of the physical attack itself, your viability to a raid measured in total damage - including the debuff - tends to scale more poorly.

Now, regarding the scaling of the ability itself: well, the first thing I'd notice is that with Surprise Attacks and Aggression, SS already scales as 1.16xWeapon Damage, whereas Hemo is only 1.1. So from that already, we'd expect SS to scale better than Hemo. Even if that *weren't* the case, Combat Potency means you get more SS per unit time than you do Hemo, meaning that if you actually work out the damage per unit time instead of the damage per attack, SS has even more of an advantage. And finally, Combat Potency assures that SS scales with both Hit and Expertise, while Hemo generally does not.

So, if you want to be technical, the immediate physical damage of Hemo in a vacuum scales better with gear than the immediate physical damage of a SS. However, there is more benefit to be gained via talents, so the scaling of a combat SS build is better than that of any Hemo build, just in terms of the damage of the move itself. When you throw in the fact the Hemo relies on a large chunk of minimally-scaling debuff damage to be competitive, it is pretty clear that Hemo builds scale more poorly with gear than combat builds do.
#1091SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Septhaka
Looks like Rupture > Eviscerate+T5+ImpEvisc+Aggression. Let me know if I have made any errors below.

I am using the following melee attributes:
Attack Power = 1938
Crit% = 26.18%
T5 Armor (+40 dmg per CP)
Improved Eviscerate (+15% dmg for Eviscerate)
Aggression (+6% dmg for Eviscerate)
Murder (+2% dmg for Rupture and Eviscerate)
Level 73 mob with 7700 armor (39.166% mitigation)
Assuming 0% chance to miss

RUPTURE
1 CP - 324 + 4*.01*AP
2 CP - 460 + 5*.02*AP
3 CP - 618 + 6*.03*AP
4 CP - 798 + 7*.03*AP
5 CP - 1000 + 8*.03*AP

EVISCERATE
1 CP - 245 to 365 + .03*AP
2 CP - 430 to 550 + .06*AP
3 CP - 615 to 735 + .09*AP
4 CP - 800 to 920 + .12*AP
5 CP - 985 to 1105 + .15*AP

5CP RUPTURE CALCULATIONS
5CP Rupture = 1000 + 465 (8*.03*1938) + 29 (Murder) = 1494 (299 dmg per CP and 60 dmg per Energy point)

5CP EVISCERATE CALCULATIONS
5CP Eviscerate = 1045 (average base) + 291 (.15*1938)+ 200 (T5 Bonus) + 230 (Imp Evisc) + 92 (Aggression) + 31 (Murder) = 1889. Reduce for armor mitigation (39.166%) yields 1149. Adjust for critical strike chance to 1751 (1149+1149*26.18%). 1751 works out to 350 dmg per CP and 50 dmg per Energy point.

I would need to have 41% crit percentage or 3900 AP for Eviscerate to be equivalent to Rupture.
#1092SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Latito
You would want to factor in Sunder, Faerie Fire, possibly CoR, possibly WSC, etc as well. There was a fairly detailed discussion on this not to long ago which included calculations more accurate than your own. That said, you did still arrive at the proper conclusion.
#1093SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Arindelest
Furthermore, you'd want to use Raid-buffed stats.

Most importantly you're missing the hugest component to these calculations: Mangle.
#1094SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2Arnan
Right, first time I ask (Took me some time to read it all so that I could see if what I wanted to know was already answered);

First off, I know that I should probably consult a spreadsheet, but honestly I am more concerned about the mathematical and theoretical reasons for the answer to my question than the straigth DPS answer I get from the spread sheet:

A rogue stands in the situation where he simply can't seem to get a good sword drop. There's a real flood of daggers, though, and he finds himself with a dagger that is significantly better than the sword he is currently using. Now, how much better than the sword would the dagger need to be in order to let a daggerspec catch up on the dps gain that the rogue would get from using a sword spec, in terms of pure DPS?
I can imagine that it would change depending on gear level (Haste being better for sword procs, maybe?) but I honestly wouldn't mind answers for different gear levels aslong as I could get the reasons and the math behind it with me - I am afraid that making the math here goes above my usual levels but I can usally follow it when it is written down for me
#1095SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2 Aldriana
Well, I hate to say it, but: consult your local spreadsheet.

Fundamentally, the difference between sword spec and dagger spec is very hard to analyze with napkinmath. You're using attacks with different damage/energy efficiency, different specialization effects (including OH/MH interactions), different proc uptimes - different everything. It depends on level of gear, level of buff, and so on. So it's really hard to say "a dagger must be X amount better than your best sword option to be worth using" without coming back to the spreadsheet at some level.

I did perform an analysis of where the damage difference is coming from, and the answer, as I recall, came down to Murder, Mangle, and OH Sword Spec procs. Basically, against mobs that are not Murderable, if you don't have a Feral Druid around, Dagger spec does almost identical damage to Fist spec; the only reason Sword spec wins in that case is because your OH sword procs MH attacks via sword spec.

Now, how big of a difference is this in practice? Well, the numbers being bounced around at the time were that Vindicator's Brand/Latro's - a combination almost any self-respecting raiding rogue should be able to get - was better than any combination of daggers you could get at the T5 level. Recent changes have reduced this to some extent, but, for the sake of comparison: with my current gear (mid-high T6), assuming roughly half of targets are Murderable and everything is Manglable (which isn't exactly valid, but it's a decent ballpark figure), with Arena 3 Shanker/Shiv, I do about 1535.5 DPS. With Arena *2* Slicer/Quickblade, i do 1537.5. So, Arena 2 swords are comparable to Arena 3 daggers for a T6 rogue.

Now, if you don't run with a feral druid, and you're in a section of the game where most things aren't Murderable, the gap closes somewhat; in these cases, daggers are somewhat closer. On the other hand, this is for purely sustained situations; daggers present issues in terms of staying in position (not that swords don't want to attack from behind as well, but you can attack while you're getting there) and having energy cap out (as your energy-expending move is more expensive, your average energy level is higher so you cap out sooner if you have to step out of melee range for whatever reason). So swords have some intangible benefits as well.

Fundamentally: it's reasonably easy to see what advantages swords have from a theoretical perspective, but quantifying the difference without a spreadsheet is likely to be very hard if not impossible.
#1096SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2xyresic
Hemo and Low Melee Raiders

Forgive me if this is addressed in another thread or post somewhere. I've read this thread and am working through the DPS spreadsheet thread, and haven't seen this particular question asked.

Is there a certain assumption made with regards to how valuable a Hemo rogue is in a raid depending on the number of melee members you have? I've heard it said that it's usually worth one rogue to spec Hemo, but at what point does this become true when you have only a few melee members? My guild may be the exception. We're currently working on SSC (5/6) and TK (3/4). Our typical party is thus:

BM Hunter
Kitty Druid
CSwords Rogue
CSwords Rogue
Either another BM Hunter or a DPS Warrior.

We have no Enhancement Shaman. The other two groups are all mage/lock/hunter dps. So really our only melee dps is some combination of the above plus others in the MT group, about 6 or 7 total including prot warrior(s). Pets too if they count. From my reading, this seems lower than what most other rogues that post here have, especially concerning the Enhancement Shaman. Now, I've plugged my gear into the DPS spreadsheet and as CSwords I come out 1497.78 ideal, but with Hemo I can ideally hit 1527.40, a decent amount of increase, if the Hemo Debuff is checked and DD is set to overall.

So the question is, will I still be a benefit to the raid considering that there may not be enough melee dps to use up all the Hemo charges, or is the above example enough to do so and realize the dps gain from Hemo? I'm probably going to test this out tomorrow night and compare WWS's, but I thought I'd get some theoritical feedback as well.
#1097SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2 Shaker
Hemo affects both your tanks and your hunters, bringing up the number of people affected fairly reasonably. Also, the main metric to go by is "Is the debuff being used up before I refresh it?" (approximately every 4 seconds) - if 3 people can consume the debuff in 4 seconds (unlikely) then you're getting the same raid DPS benefit (within a margin of error, not counting external benefits like TPS, etc) as you would if it was being used up within 1 second of application.
#1098SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2 Aldriana
It actually tends not to depend too heavily on the number of physical damage classes in the raid. It's pretty hard to have a raid wherein the charges will *not* all be used fairly consistently. As long as you're careful to not apply too close together on a regular basis, you yourself will likely use almost half the charges yourself; as long as there's a tank and one other melee DPS, you'll be using almost all the charges. By the time you're using 2 other melee DPS, the issue is basically gone.

The real dependency for the value of Hemo is itemization level; since Combat Swords (CS) scales better than Tri-spec hemo (TSH), the viability depends on where on that scaling curve you are. If you're at the T4 level of itemization, TSH is pretty strong; by end-T6, it's pretty much dead. Based on your armory, you appear to be at T4/Low-T5 itemization, so I would say that having 1 TSH rogue probably does make sense from a raid DPS perspective. To figure it out in more details, I would consult the spreadsheets.
#1099SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.2xyresic
Originally Posted by Shaker View Post
Hemo affects both your tanks and your hunters, bringing up the number of people affected fairly reasonably. Also, the main metric to go by is "Is the debuff being used up before I refresh it?" (approximately every 4 seconds) - if 3 people can consume the debuff in 4 seconds (unlikely) then you're getting the same raid DPS benefit (within a margin of error, not counting external benefits like TPS, etc) as you would if it was being used up within 1 second of application.
I didn't even realize Hunter attacks use Hemo charges. My bad. I guess I need to read the tooltip better. That does change it a bit. Typically we have 3 hunters, 2 rogues, 2 feral druids, a ret pally, and 2 - 3 tanks depending on the encounter. So we have anywhere from 9 to 11 people that would use those charges within a 4 minute window. I'd imagine that that number would be enough to use the charges fast enough.

Thanks for the clarification.
#1100SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Akken
I've read through some of the infractions on this site and wanted to start of by apologizing for my spelling and grammar; neither of which are too good.

I've been reading through a lot of the rogue material and have a few questions that I hope some don't mind answering for me. After looking at them I realized they aren't as important as I thought. Most seem to just be nit picking type questions that were bugging me, as most of my questions were answered in this thread. Also I would like to apologize if these questions were covered else where but in threads that are often lengthy I may have missed the answers (but I did try to find them).

1.) Energy Regen: This may actually be a pretty stupid question but does spamming any attack, let’s say sinister strike slow down your energy regen or will it still regen at the 2 sec rate. I know with casters they have a certain mana regen when casting and then one when not casting.

If it does regen at the same rate no matter what (not counting talents such as AR) then that leads me to my next question.

2.) EW: Am I missing the main point of the energy watch mod? When I try to use it I find myself staring to much at it and it ticks so fast I'm not sure how anyone can keep up with the count. It seems like you should just spam whatever attack and build up to the required number of combo points for your cycle, instead of watching or counting your energy regen.

3.) Trash Mobs: When trash will die quickly what would be the correct way of opening. My garrotes seem to never get to run their full course and using cheap shot seems like it might hinder the tank from generating rage as efficient during those seconds the mob is stunned. Would it be better to run up to the target and sinister strike, followed by SnD, and then finish out the cycle?

4.) Certain Math: In *general* where does certain math come from that's not on the tool tips. For example from reading info on this forum, I now know that a 5cp rupture does 1000 damage + 24% of your AP for 35 energy, or 40 damage plus 0.96% of your AP per energy. The tool tips only says *increased by your attack power*. So is it a matter of people doing extensive calculations to figure out the % of your AP on this attack or is there another resource/mod, in game feature etc that tells you these numbers?

5.) My last question had to do with trouble I was having with a macro to eliminate the red error messages you receive when a ability isn't ready. I recently did a reinstall and lost all of my macros so I don't have the code that was giving me the problem. In a nut shell I basically was trying make a macro that every time I used sinister strike it would check to see if trinket was up and if so then use it. I was able to get it to work but I was also getting a constant flow of error messages from spamming it that the trinket wasn’t ready. A friend helped me clear the message but then the macro was no longer using my trinket.

Sorry if the wording on these questions made y'all cringe but as I stated at the beginning my grammar and spelling aren't so good.
#1101SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Aldriana
Originally Posted by Akken View Post
I've read through some of the infractions on this site and wanted to start of by apologizing for my spelling and grammar; neither of which are too good.

I've been reading through a lot of the rogue material and have a few questions that I hope some don't mind answering for me. After looking at them I realized they aren't as important as I thought. Most seem to just be nit picking type questions that were bugging me, as most of my questions were answered in this thread. Also I would like to apologize if these questions were covered else where but in threads that are often lengthy I may have missed the answers (but I did try to find them).

1.) Energy Regen: This may actually be a pretty stupid question but does spamming any attack, let’s say sinister strike slow down your energy regen or will it still regen at the 2 sec rate. I know with casters they have a certain mana regen when casting and then one when not casting.

If it does regen at the same rate no matter what (not counting talents such as AR) then that leads me to my next question.

2.) EW: Am I missing the main point of the energy watch mod? When I try to use it I find myself staring to much at it and it ticks so fast I'm not sure how anyone can keep up with the count. It seems like you should just spam whatever attack and build up to the required number of combo points for your cycle, instead of watching or counting your energy regen.

3.) Trash Mobs: When trash will die quickly what would be the correct way of opening. My garrotes seem to never get to run their full course and using cheap shot seems like it might hinder the tank from generating rage as efficient during those seconds the mob is stunned. Would it be better to run up to the target and sinister strike, followed by SnD, and then finish out the cycle?

4.) Certain Math: In *general* where does certain math come from that's not on the tool tips. For example from reading info on this forum, I now know that a 5cp rupture does 1000 damage + 24% of your AP for 35 energy, or 40 damage plus 0.96% of your AP per energy. The tool tips only says *increased by your attack power*. So is it a matter of people doing extensive calculations to figure out the % of your AP on this attack or is there another resource/mod, in game feature etc that tells you these numbers?

5.) My last question had to do with trouble I was having with a macro to eliminate the red error messages you receive when a ability isn't ready. I recently did a reinstall and lost all of my macros so I don't have the code that was giving me the problem. In a nut shell I basically was trying make a macro that every time I used sinister strike it would check to see if trinket was up and if so then use it. I was able to get it to work but I was also getting a constant flow of error messages from spamming it that the trinket wasn’t ready. A friend helped me clear the message but then the macro was no longer using my trinket.

Sorry if the wording on these questions made y'all cringe but as I stated at the beginning my grammar and spelling aren't so good.
1) Energy regen is constant. It never changes. It's always 20 energy every 2 seconds (except during AR).
2) My understanding of energy watch mods is that they're mainly for timing openers in, like, pvp scenarios. If you open on someone right before a tick, you basically have 20 extra energy to combo them with.
3) I usually open with Sinister Strike, myself. In 5/10 mans, Cheap Shot is an option, but for 25-man raiding I think SS is usually the way to go.
4) Thottbot/Wowhead give the formulas, which have since been tested and confirmed.
#1102SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Ashersky
Originally Posted by glowacks View Post
This may not be the case any more, but there have definitely been times that I have noticed a gain of 21-22 energy per tick. However, they were both with a druid, and both pre-2.0. In one case I was watching a friend farm in EPL while waiting to get into Naxx, and he had SCT reporting his normal energy gains. They were consistently 21-22. I also remember from playing my own druid with energy numbers displayed that sometimes I would get more than 20 energy in a tick.

In both of these cases, I attributed it to the server being overloaded. You are supposed to regenerate 10 energy per second. My theory was that if the server couldn't keep up with having a regen tick every 2 seconds and was having to delay them, it would still credit you with the appropriate amount of energy if it took 2.1 or 2.2 seconds. Given that I tended to experience the above behavior when the server felt a little more sluggish than normal, and really having no other way to interpret what I saw, I was fairly sure it was a reasonable explanation. And I forgot all about it until I read the last few posts.
Did I miss an answer to this? I have definitely seen that extra 1 or 2 energy pop up from time to time (usually a 41 or 42 on the energy bar)--is lag to blame? Sinister strike/rupture/S&D cost 40/25/25 and CP adds 15 so our energy numbers should always end in 0 or 5.

Another explanation would be the use of shiv--with Latro's, it costs 34 energy (20 + 10*weapon speed). Start somewhere mid-cycle with 40 energy, proc CP to get to 55, Shiv to drop to 21, energy tick to 41, and so on...although I never shiv, so I don't think that's the case for me.
#1103SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Aldriana
I believe that's caused by client-side lag. That is, you still gain 10 energy per second on average, but your client doesn't update until 2.1 seconds since the last tick, so you get 21 energy. I know during the AQ event I was getting really irregular ticks - some as large as 30 or so - and I was lagging extremely badly at the time, which is why I theorize this. However, that was a while ago, so it might have changed since.
#1104SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Phanez
so, next question, lol. i keep hearing mixed replies about haste, some like it, some feel its trash. im comswords, and the first page lists hit has the 3rd 'best' stat for dps, (under hit and expertise) and so from that standpoint, to me, it looks good.

items im considering getting are the badge pants/gloves, maybe the eagle boss sword from za. i lose crit/hit but gain the haste, and im just wondering if its really worth it, and/or how much haste you really need to make a difference.
#1105SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Ricard
I'm afraid that I missed some of the posts in this thread, but I thought I'd ask about something I've noticed regarding the roguefocus addon (does energy ticks) and combat potency. To be specific, when combat potency procs, the energy tick progress bar resets to the beginning. Does combat potency reset the timer, or is this perhaps a fault of the addon?
#1106SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Aldriana
Originally Posted by Phanez View Post
so, next question, lol. i keep hearing mixed replies about haste, some like it, some feel its trash. im comswords, and the first page lists hit has the 3rd 'best' stat for dps, (under hit and expertise) and so from that standpoint, to me, it looks good.

items im considering getting are the badge pants/gloves, maybe the eagle boss sword from za. i lose crit/hit but gain the haste, and im just wondering if its really worth it, and/or how much haste you really need to make a difference.
Haste is, in it's own right, a fairly good stat. The problem is that as far as I can tell, it's an expensive stat from an item budget perspective (or perhaps everything with it is just itemized poorly), so passive haste items are rarely notably good for where they drop.

In terms of figuring out the actual value of some of the ZA/Badge items, your best bet is probably one of the spreadsheets. As a rough approximation for the items you mentioned: Heartless + Akil'zon's Talonblade are better than any swords you can get from pre-25 man raiding, but are behind all 25-man raiding swords, as well as Arena season 2+3 gear. Shallow-Grave trousers are competitive with the best things you can get pre-T6. Trickster's Stickyfinger's are better than anything in T4 but worse than everything in T5.

For more precise answers, grab a spreadsheet, punch in your gear, and see how the various items compare.
#1107SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 songster
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
3) I usually open with Sinister Strike, myself. In 5/10 mans, Cheap Shot is an option, but for 25-man raiding I think SS is usually the way to go.
I tend to open with Shiv. Yes, it's lower damage than SS, but in context that just means there's less chance of getting aggro before it's established. It also gets your DP stack started, which means you have a better chance of finishing up with a big Envenom. Remember, Eviscerate is only better than Envenom if the DP stack has time to tick. On trash, that's generally not the case, and Rupture won't tick out either, so Envenom is actually the finisher of choice.

The alternative is to put IP instead of DP, start with SS and finish with Eviscerate. Not sure how much if any difference that makes, but it's a royal pain to have to swap poisons from IP to DP and back before and after every boss fight, which is why I just roll with DP and use Envenom on trash.

I wonder if that's worth actually theorycrafting out? Let's assume you have time for exactly one big finisher.

Is it better to do:

(Shiv) / S'n'D 1 point / (SS spam) / Envenom 5 point - assumes DP on OH

or

(SS) / S'n'D' 1 point / (SS spam) / Eviscerate 5 point - assumes IP on OH

?


Of course, theorycrafting extreme trash DPS may not be the most fruitful use of our time, but it's something to do while waiting for news about itemisation / mechanics changes. As an aside, in terms of pure e-peen, timing a Blade Flurry correctly so you can double up a 5k Envenom crit takes a lot of beating.
#1108SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Rerolled
Originally Posted by Ricard View Post
I'm afraid that I missed some of the posts in this thread, but I thought I'd ask about something I've noticed regarding the roguefocus addon (does energy ticks) and combat potency. To be specific, when combat potency procs, the energy tick progress bar resets to the beginning. Does combat potency reset the timer, or is this perhaps a fault of the addon?
No, combat potency procs don't interfere with base energy regen. I'd find another mod for that purpose; Pitbull has one built in that works nicely.
#1109SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Arnan
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
Well, I hate to say it, but: consult your local spreadsheet.

Fundamentally, the difference between sword spec and dagger spec is very hard to analyze with napkinmath. You're using attacks with different damage/energy efficiency, different specialization effects (including OH/MH interactions), different proc uptimes - different everything. It depends on level of gear, level of buff, and so on. So it's really hard to say "a dagger must be X amount better than your best sword option to be worth using" without coming back to the spreadsheet at some level.

I did perform an analysis of where the damage difference is coming from, and the answer, as I recall, came down to Murder, Mangle, and OH Sword Spec procs. Basically, against mobs that are not Murderable, if you don't have a Feral Druid around, Dagger spec does almost identical damage to Fist spec; the only reason Sword spec wins in that case is because your OH sword procs MH attacks via sword spec.

Now, how big of a difference is this in practice? Well, the numbers being bounced around at the time were that Vindicator's Brand/Latro's - a combination almost any self-respecting raiding rogue should be able to get - was better than any combination of daggers you could get at the T5 level. Recent changes have reduced this to some extent, but, for the sake of comparison: with my current gear (mid-high T6), assuming roughly half of targets are Murderable and everything is Manglable (which isn't exactly valid, but it's a decent ballpark figure), with Arena 3 Shanker/Shiv, I do about 1535.5 DPS. With Arena *2* Slicer/Quickblade, i do 1537.5. So, Arena 2 swords are comparable to Arena 3 daggers for a T6 rogue.

Now, if you don't run with a feral druid, and you're in a section of the game where most things aren't Murderable, the gap closes somewhat; in these cases, daggers are somewhat closer. On the other hand, this is for purely sustained situations; daggers present issues in terms of staying in position (not that swords don't want to attack from behind as well, but you can attack while you're getting there) and having energy cap out (as your energy-expending move is more expensive, your average energy level is higher so you cap out sooner if you have to step out of melee range for whatever reason). So swords have some intangible benefits as well.

Fundamentally: it's reasonably easy to see what advantages swords have from a theoretical perspective, but quantifying the difference without a spreadsheet is likely to be very hard if not impossible.
Thank you, I did, and got a small difference of 2 DPS from going from a lower itemlevel sword to dagger, so I will take it that I will see an actual increase in DPS due to the greater margin of errors allowed by swords (If I remember correct the spread sheet can't figure out how good or bad I perform myself)
Thank you, anyhow, for the information of what would influence it
#1110SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Latito
Originally Posted by Bloodsiren View Post
Again, I apologize for my poor math skills. I am combat daggers and 2 pieces of T4, my raid team is just now progressing into SSC/TK. I am finding that for trash pulls, the hunters and sometimes mages are topping the rogues in dps. I know part of this is that these are highly mobile pulls and while the hunters/mages can just stand still and keep dpsing, the rogues have to chase down the mob to start dpsing. However, I want to see if the rotation I am using on trash can be tinkered with to increase that damage. One of the biggest problems is that the mob will almost always die before I can get a 3CP rupture on the mob or if I get the rupture on the mob, before the rupture ticks through. So I'm wondering for trash mobs, would it be better to simply get SnD up constantly and just backstab until the mob is almost dead, use SnD again so that it is up for the next mob in the pack and so forth? Or would it be better to switch to a 1CP SnD/3CP Evis for the mobs, even though evis does less dmg/energy than rupture, it is an instant dmg rather than a dot. Or is there a 3rd method I'm missing? I know there are formulas here that go over some of this, but it really is another language to me though I have tried to work it through myself. I usually open up on the pull with either cheap shot if they are stunnable and I get 2 CPs right off the bat or with ambush if they aren't stunnable. Then by making sure SnD is up when the first mob dies, I can move to the next one to backstab and don't have to shiv or SS to get another point up. As combat daggers, I am working hard to never have to hit SS or shiv, except in certain fights where it is almost impossible to get a combat point up without using them. I have been currently just keeping SnD up and backstabbing the trash mobs otherwise. But I know this wastes some dmg output because sometimes SnD still has about 10sec on it when the trash mob is about to die, but I will have 3 or 4 CP on it and will hit SnD to use them up so that I will still have SnD up for the next mob in the pull.

Also, on a side note, someone talked about not poisoning our MH weapon because we should have a shammy with WF up. While we do have shamans in our raids most nights, one of our MTs is a feral druid and so we almost never get WF over Grace of Air. So I do keep up poisons on both MH/OH. I usually put deadly on MH and instant on OH. However, that does mean mangle is generally on the target. When we do get lucky enough to get WF, then I just put deadly on my OH. But the rogues really don't get much say in how parties are set up or what shaman totems we get.
So basically.. your combat daggers, have a crap group and your guild isn't organizing trash well (spreading stuff way out making the melee run around). Then on top of this, you're trying to use a finisher which takes 12 seconds to do its damage on a mob that probably dies in 10-15 seconds.. most of which is spend getting the combo points to do said finisher.

The only advice I can really give is that Backstab is better dmg per energy than Evis/Envenom until about 4 or 5 combo points. Just spam backstab and SnD, don't worry about Evis/Envenom/Rupture on trash really. Generally IP MH, DP OH is the more accepted method of doing poisons. After counting in yellow attacks, your MH and OH hit the boss nearly the same amount of times per unit of time, so deadly OH in case you ever feel like shiv'ing to force it on or just so you don't have to switch poisons when you DO get a shaman.

Rogue dps scales immensely with buffs. I've done fights where I am literally the ONLY melee in the raid, aside from the tanks. I've also done raids with Imp Battle shout + Solarian, Enhance sham, Blood Frenzy, Ret pally, Survival hunter, feral druid, CoR, imp BoM, BoK, agi scroll, hit food, flask, etc. Your dps can more than double just based on buffs.. hell you mentioned having a feral MT - do you have a warrior sundering the mobs your killing for trash? That alone is a 20-25% dps boost.
#1111SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Ozzmar
Yea, you're on the right track with your "trash theory" for lack of a better term. Certain specs do better over long periods of time (Combat daggers, Affliction warlocks, etc) when they don't have a lot of spiky, burst damage. However, there's no real "correct" cycle you should be using. It will always depend on the duration of the mob, and how hard the DPS in your guild is trying on those trash pulls. Just use your best judgement to know how to sneak the most damage in that you possibly can.

One thing to think about is the DPE of Eviscerate vs. Backstab. Sure you can throw a 2 or 3 point Eviscerate on that mob before it dies, but if RS doesn't proc, that could mean a WHOLE bunch of auto-attacking time on the next mob. But it seems you're already thinking about things like this, so keep fiddling around with it and you'll figure out what works best for you.

As for your poisons, I believe you have them backwards. If you have no Windfury, you'd want Instant on your main hand, and Deadly on your off hand.
#1112SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Professor Hurt
EDIT: strange, this was in reply to the post below mine (#1113). Read his first, then mine

As a general rule of thumb (found in various posts on this forum), you should avoid using Rupture on trash pulls for the reasons you outline. Therefore your only real options left are Evis or Envenom. I typically stick with Evis but there's a strong argument to burn your DP ticks with Envenom if you can time it right (near mob death).

Also I tend to use the 20% mob health mark as an indicator when to start burning off my last remaining CPs. There just isn't enough time left in the battle to guarantee those CPs will be around much longer, so I stop trying to build up more and just spend spend spend. I occasionally burn them on extending my SnD (if additonal trash is in the queue), but it all depends on how many additional trash mobs are up and how close they are to me (the farther away, the more SnD is wasted in travel).

Conc
#1113SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Hanos
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
Haste is, in it's own right, a fairly good stat. The problem is that as far as I can tell, it's an expensive stat from an item budget perspective (or perhaps everything with it is just itemized poorly), so passive haste items are rarely notably good for where they drop.

In terms of figuring out the actual value of some of the ZA/Badge items, your best bet is probably one of the spreadsheets. As a rough approximation for the items you mentioned: Heartless + Akil'zon's Talonblade are better than any swords you can get from pre-25 man raiding, but are behind all 25-man raiding swords, as well as Arena season 2+3 gear. Shallow-Grave trousers are competitive with the best things you can get pre-T6. Trickster's Stickyfinger's are better than anything in T4 but worse than everything in T5.

For more precise answers, grab a spreadsheet, punch in your gear, and see how the various items compare.
Haste appears to have the exact same cost as any other stat (other then AP, Stam or -Armor). Compare the T4 Pants to the Badge one:
T4 Lv 120:
+43 Agility
+40 Stamina
Equip: Improves hit rating by 26 (1.65% @ L70).
Equip: Increases attack power by 84.


Badge Lv 128:
+45 Agility
+46 Stamina
Equip: Improves haste rating by 30 (1.9% @ L70).
Equip: Increases attack power by 92.

+2 Agi
+6 Stam
+8 AP

30 Haste instead of 26 Hit. On a 1 for 1 Basis, the badge ones should win out every time which the spreadsheet bears out (10 DPS advantage with the gear set I used). However, the 2 piece T4 out does that if you have another piece you are already wearing.

And yes, generally every item with haste is poorly itemized compared to the alternative due to one factor: SOCKETS.
-Slayers Shoulders (2 Sockets) > Swiftstrike Shoulders (0 Sockets) > Other Non-Set Shoulders (0 Sockets)
-Insidious Bands (1 Socket) > Deadly Cuffs (0 Sockets) > Swiftstrike Bracers (0 Socket)

The same is true with the melee haste gloves compared to the T6 ones, as well as almost any other haste item. There is a single item with haste and sockets to my knowledge and the fact that sockets are budgeted at 6 stat points, and in T6 you get 10, means that you are getting anywhere from 4-12 more points on socketed gear then on unsocketed.

I fully expect Sunwell to have leather gear with expertise, hit and haste, since they are the best stats for us, and get rid of the crit that they keep trying to shove down our throats (with the daggers that we don't want).
#1114SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Katria
Originally Posted by Latito View Post
Rogue dps scales immensely with buffs. I've done fights where I am literally the ONLY melee in the raid, aside from the tanks. I've also done raids with Imp Battle shout + Solarian, Enhance sham, Blood Frenzy, Ret pally, Survival hunter, feral druid, CoR, imp BoM, BoK, agi scroll, hit food, flask, etc. Your dps can more than double just based on buffs.. hell you mentioned having a feral MT - do you have a warrior sundering the mobs your killing for trash? That alone is a 20-25% dps boost.
I wonder, is this as true for other classes? I've run my gear through the spreadsheet and looked at items I could possibly get as upgrades (25 man raids are out for me, so kara/ZA is endgame), and while there are some nice items the actual boost to my DPS is kinda minimal.

However, I was playing around with the sheet and was astonished by how much a DPS boost adding an enhance shammy to the raid would be. I can usually count on kings (yes might is better, but the added hps are a nice buffer), salv, and MotW. One day we ran an additional alt-pally so I had might as well, and it made a noticeable difference. I just find it amusing that changing our raid makeup stands to give me a far bigger DPS boost than all of the new gear I could conceivably get combined...just adding another pally for might is like a 6% boost to my DPS.

So are rogues the anomaly? Or do all classes see this kind of huge DPS boost from party/raid buffs? It'd be nice if such a buff-dependant class could offer buffs of its own...
#1115SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Bloodsiren
trash mob rotations

Again, I apologize for my poor math skills. I am combat daggers and 2 pieces of T4, my raid team is just now progressing into SSC/TK. I am finding that for trash pulls, the hunters and sometimes mages are topping the rogues in dps. I know part of this is that these are highly mobile pulls and while the hunters/mages can just stand still and keep dpsing, the rogues have to chase down the mob to start dpsing. However, I want to see if the rotation I am using on trash can be tinkered with to increase that damage. One of the biggest problems is that the mob will almost always die before I can get a 3CP rupture on the mob or if I get the rupture on the mob, before the rupture ticks through. So I'm wondering for trash mobs, would it be better to simply get SnD up constantly and just backstab until the mob is almost dead, use SnD again so that it is up for the next mob in the pack and so forth? Or would it be better to switch to a 1CP SnD/3CP Evis for the mobs, even though evis does less dmg/energy than rupture, it is an instant dmg rather than a dot. Or is there a 3rd method I'm missing? I know there are formulas here that go over some of this, but it really is another language to me though I have tried to work it through myself. I usually open up on the pull with either cheap shot if they are stunnable and I get 2 CPs right off the bat or with ambush if they aren't stunnable. Then by making sure SnD is up when the first mob dies, I can move to the next one to backstab and don't have to shiv or SS to get another point up. As combat daggers, I am working hard to never have to hit SS or shiv, except in certain fights where it is almost impossible to get a combat point up without using them. I have been currently just keeping SnD up and backstabbing the trash mobs otherwise. But I know this wastes some dmg output because sometimes SnD still has about 10sec on it when the trash mob is about to die, but I will have 3 or 4 CP on it and will hit SnD to use them up so that I will still have SnD up for the next mob in the pull.

Also, on a side note, someone talked about not poisoning our MH weapon because we should have a shammy with WF up. While we do have shamans in our raids most nights, one of our MTs is a feral druid and so we almost never get WF over Grace of Air. So I do keep up poisons on both MH/OH. I usually put deadly on MH and instant on OH. However, that does mean mangle is generally on the target. When we do get lucky enough to get WF, then I just put deadly on my OH. But the rogues really don't get much say in how parties are set up or what shaman totems we get.
#1116SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3xellos
Originally Posted by Katria View Post
So are rogues the anomaly? Or do all classes see this kind of huge DPS boost from party/raid buffs? It'd be nice if such a buff-dependant class could offer buffs of its own...
Two-hand dps such as retadins and MS warriors are vastly dependent on WF, and other buffs to a lesser degree, to do decent dps. Of course all dps classes benefit from buffs, but I think the scaling is most evident with melees since melee party synergy is immense.
#1117SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Arindelest
Originally Posted by Katria View Post
I wonder, is this as true for other classes? I've run my gear through the spreadsheet and looked at items I could possibly get as upgrades (25 man raids are out for me, so kara/ZA is endgame), and while there are some nice items the actual boost to my DPS is kinda minimal.

However, I was playing around with the sheet and was astonished by how much a DPS boost adding an enhance shammy to the raid would be. I can usually count on kings (yes might is better, but the added hps are a nice buffer), salv, and MotW. One day we ran an additional alt-pally so I had might as well, and it made a noticeable difference. I just find it amusing that changing our raid makeup stands to give me a far bigger DPS boost than all of the new gear I could conceivably get combined...just adding another pally for might is like a 6% boost to my DPS.

So are rogues the anomaly? Or do all classes see this kind of huge DPS boost from party/raid buffs? It'd be nice if such a buff-dependant class could offer buffs of its own...
The general rule of thumb is that physical DPS scales with buffs better than caster DPS. Why? Almost every physical DPS buffs directly increase damage (besides an obvious few). We get (usually at least some of) Might, GoA, SoE, WF, Leader of the Pack, Imp Faerie Fire, Battle Shout, TSA, Imp Hunter's Mark/Hunter's Mark, Exp. Weakness, Ferocious Inspiration, Sunder Armor, Curse of Recklessness, etc. (might have missed some).

On the other hand, casters get Totem of Wrath/WoA (both of which are worse than WF), Moonkin Aura, Ferocious Inspiration, Misery, CoE/CoS (might have missed some again).

Both physical and casters get Gift and Kings but, again, physical DPS gains more from it with AP gains and less of agility equating to crit than intellect.

To sum up, more physical dps buffs directly increase damage; more caster buffs (Wisdom, VT, etc) increase longevity rather than directly upping damage.

It should be noted however, that just like adding a fully-talented and Sapphire'd BS (470 AP) is huge in terms of buffing your DPS (making up for a massive amount of gear upgrades), casters gain a lot, from, say, a Wrath of Air totem, which is equivalent to a good many gear pieces.
#1118SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Rerox
Originally Posted by Hanos View Post
-Insidious Bands (1 Socket) > Deadly Cuffs (0 Sockets) > Swiftstrike Bracers (0 Socket)
My Deadly Cuffs DO have a socket, maybe you bought yourself a cheap goblin copy?
#1119SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Hanos
Originally Posted by Rerox View Post
My Deadly Cuffs DO have a socket, maybe you bought yourself a cheap goblin copy?
Typo, I was coping and pasting, if they didn't have a socket odds are the Swiftstrike would be better. I also got lucky and got the Insidious Bands first, so I never used Deadly Cuffs.
#1120SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Symphon
Hello this is my first post on EJ!

First off this is a great post, i have used it, to try and maximize my rogues dps, but i have found myself in a situation where i cannot find the answer on how to up my DPS.

For a long time i had been PvE'ing with the Season 3 Maces, and while the maces have an impressive 103 dps, the proc effect from Swords is sorely missed, and i figured that might be what caused my somewhat unimpressive raid dps.

So i studied this thread and i figured getting season 3 offhand sword and then mixing it up with a Combat Mace MH/sword OF hybrid spec would be my best bet to upping DPS so i got a 16/45/0 build and went into SSC.

The DPS is indeed good, i think it improved, but im still not doing good enough dps.

So i have come here in the hopes, that someone could advice me, on what a smart move would be to up PvE Dps.

I used my last arena points on the Season 3 offhand sword.

What im considering is, would replacing Season 3 MH Mace, with Talon of Azshara or Heartless, and going Full Combat swords, be an overall DPS Upgrade, despite the individual MH weapon DPS downgrade?

I tried to use the dps spreadsheet but it didnt work out.

Heres my armory - http://eu.wowarmory.com/character-sh...zhan&n=Herreth

I tried hard to work out how to Up my PvE Dps, but i just dont know.

Hope someone with Sword spec experience can help me out

Last edited by Symphon : 01/23/08 at 8:53 PM.
#1121SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Shaker
Use the gear spreadsheet. It's linked in the first post.
#1122SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Symphon
Originally Posted by Shaker View Post
Use the gear spreadsheet. It's linked in the first post.
i tried to use the spreadsheet but i couldnt make it work, i also wrote that in my post.

I will try again i guess.

I ran the spreadsheet, then when i changed talent build i got an error message saying "Macros are disabled because the security level is set too high and needs a signed publisher".

I then lowered security level, and tried changing talent build again, i got a Microsoft Visual basic "Compile error; cannot find project or library" which opened up a window that looked like a script to me.

Ill try tinkering around more with it.

Last edited by Symphon : 01/23/08 at 9:24 PM.
#1123SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Shaker
I've tried to make this thread a place for discussion of rogue mechanics instead of a "Here's my gear, what do you guys think I should do?!?", but I couldn't make that work.

I will try again I guess.
#1124SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Symphon
Originally Posted by Shaker View Post
I've tried to make this thread a place for discussion of rogue mechanics instead of a "Here's my gear, what do you guys think I should do?!?", but I couldn't make that work.

I will try again I guess.
Its a simple question of whether a 6 DPS individual weapon downgrade, and going from mace+sword combat to sword+sword is an overall upgrade, or an overall downgrade.

In other words whether the invidual dps makes up less than the specialization dps will. Id say that is rogue mechanics, and not a case of heres my gear.

I tried to make the damn spreadsheet work, and as you can see from my above post it hasnt gone well.
#1125SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Aldriana
Suggestion 1: Use the Rogue Gear sheet instead of the Rogue DPS sheet, as it doesn't have the macros that seem to be causing you problems.

That said: in the realm or Rogue DPS there's really no such thing as a simple question. Whether a 6 DPS weapon upgrade + weapon spec change depends heavily on what else you're wearing, what bosses you're fighting and so on. There's just not a general answer that we can give. My gut would be to say that switching from Hybrid Mace/Sword to Sword/Sword is enough of an upgrade to warrant the loss of 6 DPS on the MH, but not necessarily 6 DPS plus a reallocation of stats. However, even if my gut feeling is right for some people, it's not going to be right for everyone, which is why we have spreadsheets so you can figure out the right answer for you.
#1126SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Dontmindme
After reducing the security level for macros, you will need to close the spreadsheet and re-open it. The Macro level doesn't seem to take until you shut it down and reopen it. I had the same problem at work where the Macro level was set that high..
#1127SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Symphon
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
Suggestion 1: Use the Rogue Gear sheet instead of the Rogue DPS sheet, as it doesn't have the macros that seem to be causing you problems.

That said: in the realm or Rogue DPS there's really no such thing as a simple question. Whether a 6 DPS weapon upgrade + weapon spec change depends heavily on what else you're wearing, what bosses you're fighting and so on. There's just not a general answer that we can give. My gut would be to say that switching from Hybrid Mace/Sword to Sword/Sword is enough of an upgrade to warrant the loss of 6 DPS on the MH, but not necessarily 6 DPS plus a reallocation of stats. However, even if my gut feeling is right for some people, it's not going to be right for everyone, which is why we have spreadsheets so you can figure out the right answer for you.
Thank you for the help Aldriana and dontmindme!

I seem to be getting the hang of this spreadsheet :P! and should hopefully be able to figure something out.

Its just been bugging me for along time if my mainhand mace despite its good quality, is plain bad PvE-wise. And my gut feeling is the same as yours Aldriana, that the sword will pull ahead.

Ill try playing around with the spreadsheet and see.
#1128SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Shaker
I want to note that my post, while succinct, was trying to tell you to use the GEAR spreadsheet, not the DPS spreadsheet.
#1129SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Symphon
Wow that gear spreadsheet is good Aldriana, thanks for the advice.

I think i have found the answer i needed, and a tool to help me in the future.

edit: Wow Aldriana thats a true gem youve got right there.

Ive gotten some really great ideas for dps from that one right now

Last edited by Symphon : 01/23/08 at 10:03 PM.
#1130SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Dontmindme
Originally Posted by Symphon View Post
Thank you for the help Aldriana and dontmindme!

I seem to be getting the hang of this spreadsheet :P! and should hopefully be able to figure something out.

Its just been bugging me for along time if my mainhand mace despite its good quality, is plain bad PvE-wise. And my gut feeling is the same as yours Aldriana, that the sword will pull ahead.

Ill try playing around with the spreadsheet and see.
To be perfectly honest, if you don't like your dps comparatively, I'd think it is something other than the weapon choice or spec in this case. Combat Maces are still pretty competitive. I don't think the weapon difference is going to mean a lot especially given that you'd have to downgrade to a sword. Sounds like you think you should be doing a lot more dps and just aren't.

What I'd be looking for...
From a personal perspective...
1) Are you keeping SnD up all the time?
2) Are you letting SnD run it's course, not preempting it?
3) Are you potting, getting your food buffs, etc.?
4) Are you getting to the mobs in a timely manner (know where they are getting tanked)?
5) Are you attacking from behind? Just because Maces are non-positional doesn't mean you don't lose a ton of dps by attacking from the front because of parries.
6) Are you running good cycles? Not maxing out energy.
7) Are you dying prematurely?

From a raid perspective...
1) Are you getting your buffs?
2) Are you in a group that enhances your DPS (Shaman for WF or GoA; Warrior for Battle Shout)
3) Are the people in your group that give you your buffs dying or staying in range?
4) Is your role as a Rogue one where you maximize DPS? I.E. Your job isn't stunlock.
5) Is Sunder staying up on the mob?
6) Is the fight good for melee DPS? High movement fights and fights where you need to move in and out a lot do not favor rogues for min/maxing.

I'm just saying that there are a number of other factors which factor in to whether one is achieving the DPS they expect beyond minor gear choices.
#1131SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Symphon
Originally Posted by Dontmindme View Post
To be perfectly honest, if you don't like your dps comparatively, I'd think it is something other than the weapon choice or spec in this case. Combat Maces are still pretty competitive. I don't think the weapon difference is going to mean a lot especially given that you'd have to downgrade to a sword. Sounds like you think you should be doing a lot more dps and just aren't.

What I'd be looking for...
From a personal perspective...
1) Are you keeping SnD up all the time?
2) Are you letting SnD run it's course, not preempting it?
3) Are you potting, getting your food buffs, etc.?
4) Are you getting to the mobs in a timely manner (know where they are getting tanked)?
5) Are you attacking from behind? Just because Maces are non-positional doesn't mean you don't lose a ton of dps by attacking from the front because of parries.
6) Are you running good cycles? Not maxing out energy.
7) Are you dying prematurely?

From a raid perspective...
1) Are you getting your buffs?
2) Are you in a group that enhances your DPS (Shaman for WF or GoA; Warrior for Battle Shout)
3) Are the people in your group that give you your buffs dying or staying in range?
4) Is your role as a Rogue one where you maximize DPS? I.E. Your job isn't stunlock.
5) Is Sunder staying up on the mob?
6) Is the fight good for melee DPS? High movement fights and fights where you need to move in and out a lot do not favor rogues for min/maxing.

I'm just saying that there are a number of other factors which factor in to whether one is achieving the DPS they expect beyond minor gear choices.
This is very true dontmindme! The reason i have come here is that my guild has started doing Lady Vashj, and my Dps on her was not quite as good as i had hoped. By no means was my Dps bad, i was 3-4, behind 2 warlocks and a hunter.

In phase 2 we put rogues on elementals so we have to move alot and this surely does take quite alot of dps away.

I do try to keep slice and dice up running always, and im wearing t4 2 piece bonus in order to help with it as well.

So yeah it is very true that in order to fully maximize damage potential, i should probably also be looking at a more fair fight (where are those in SSC! ?).

The spreadsheets i must say, have truly been a great assistance, and i have learned alot about how i could up my raid dps, thank you very much for helping out, and have a good day
#1132SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3faded
Bladeflurry

Hello Everyone,

I have a question about BF generally, about its mechanics and so forth. I am interested whats the radius of BF itself, sometimes when i am clustering a pack of mobs as close as possible to each other, it looks as if some mobs don't get hit by it (even if they are positioned from me by even distance in all directions in front of me). What bugs me out, is that sometimes even when i get them in one exact spot (lets say 3 mobs), one of them doesn't get affected by BF at all :F
The other question - does BF attacks inflict full damage (white/yellow stuff, possibly even instant poison(?)) to mobs other than my primary target?
#1133SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Benhoof
BF hits just 1 additional Mob (It also says so in the tooltip).

And it hits the additional Mob for exactly the same amount of damage as your main target. If your Eviscerate crit's for lets say 2k, the second mob is hit by BF also for 2k damage.

Gathering more than 2 Mobs in Melee range does not increase your damage from BF.

Also, afaik, BF attacks cannot proc. Poison, Mongoose etc.

Last edited by Benhoof : 01/24/08 at 4:20 AM. Reason: Damage clarification added
#1134SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3drumbum
Originally Posted by faded View Post
Hello Everyone,

I have a question about BF generally, about its mechanics and so forth. I am interested whats the radius of BF itself, sometimes when i am clustering a pack of mobs as close as possible to each other, it looks as if some mobs don't get hit by it (even if they are positioned from me by even distance in all directions in front of me). What bugs me out, is that sometimes even when i get them in one exact spot (lets say 3 mobs), one of them doesn't get affected by BF at all :F
The other question - does BF attacks inflict full damage (white/yellow stuff, possibly even instant poison(?)) to mobs other than my primary target?
The radius of Blade Flurry is very small. I haven't tested it, but from observation it appears that the 2nd target must also be in your melee range. But this doesn't seem to be the only limitation as I've frequently had two mobs attacking me and BF doesn't work until I try to reposition them. My guess is that the two mobs both have to be in melee range of each other, but I'm not entirely sure.

It's actually weird that its range is so small because on my druid I can Swipe in bear form up to 3 mobs, and while the main target must be within melee range, the other 2 targets can be well out of my melee range (at least 10 yards), so the mechanic seems to be different between the two.

As already mentioned, you can't hit 3 targets at once. Reread the tooltip.

All instant damage you deal will also affect the second target, but I'm not actually sure if DOTs (rupture, deadly poison) also carry over or not, although I am pretty sure instant poison does. I really have not specced deep Combat very often.

One more thing to notice about BF is that armor mitigation is calculated independently for each target. If your main target is a rogue and you hit him for 1k, and if your second target is a bear druid for example, he isn't going to take the full 1k because he has more armor.
#1135SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Rerolled
Originally Posted by Benhoof View Post
BF hits just 1 additional Mob (It also says so in the tooltip).

And it hits the additional Mob for exactly the same amount of damage as your main target. If your Eviscerate crit's for lets say 2k, the second mob is hit by BF also for 2k damage.

Gathering more than 2 Mobs in Melee range does not increase your damage from BF.

Also, afaik, BF attacks cannot proc. Poison, Mongoose etc.
This is not entirely true. Blade Flurry used to work like this if I recall correctly, hitting both mobs for the exact same damage, but it was changed quite a while ago to apply the secondary target's armour reduction to the BF damage instead of the primary target's. Everything else is correct I believe, though for some reason Envenom works with BF though poisons do not. Blade Flurry actually has a whole bunch of strange quirks about it; it might be interesting to compile a list of them.

edit: wow, I'm slow in responding, but I wanted to do a test to make sure I wasn't remembering the mechanics wrongly.
#1136SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3RedOtto
n00b alert - but take pity on me plz

I have just found this forum and have had the whole morning blown away reading all the rogue stuff.

Darkspear EU is not blessed with many uber guilds and our Guild could probably all do with reading the huge amount of info here, so big gratz to all of you! That said, we recently entered the Top 40 and are progressing on a weekly basis.

My char is a 70 gnome rogue and until I read this stuff here I thought he was becoming quite a decent little raider. However I have had the feeling that my talent specc was wrong and having read the stuff here I am being to think he needs real work.

I am subtlety specc because I love shadowstep. It is great for solo farming Ogres and also for getting me in position during instance battles. I also carry daggers, mostly because of my addiction to ambush as an opener and secondarily because I happen to have dropped/earned cooler daggers than swords.

My guild and I recently took down Shade in Kara for the first time (stop sniggering) and while we have 2 or 3 players who are more experienced generally I would say I was at the average to good end of the scale in my guild for equipment.

Here is my Armory link. If anyone would be kind enough to look at what I have done and advise me (once you have stopped laughing that is) then I would be very grateful. I want to maximize my contribution in raids without necessarily duplicating the only other serious rogue in my guild Blackehart (if you check my link below, he will be listed in the guild section) who is combat sword specc.

http://armory.wow-europe.com/charact...pear&n=Redotto

I appreciate all comments although I would need to be strongly persuaded to dramatically change my gameplay through talent overhauls away from subtlety. That said, I am a serious if new raider and have an ambition to progress through to BT and beyond and there are many wiser, more experienced heads in this Forum

Slightly apprehensively but gratefully yours

Redotto
#1137SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3todesbote
Originally Posted by RedOtto View Post
I have just found this forum and have had the whole morning blown away reading all the rogue stuff.

Darkspear EU is not blessed with many uber guilds and our Guild could probably all do with reading the huge amount of info here, so big gratz to all of you! That said, we recently entered the Top 40 and are progressing on a weekly basis.

My char is a 70 gnome rogue and until I read this stuff here I thought he was becoming quite a decent little raider. However I have had the feeling that my talent specc was wrong and having read the stuff here I am being to think he needs real work.

I am subtlety specc because I love shadowstep. It is great for solo farming Ogres and also for getting me in position during instance battles. I also carry daggers, mostly because of my addiction to ambush as an opener and secondarily because I happen to have dropped/earned cooler daggers than swords.

My guild and I recently took down Shade in Kara for the first time (stop sniggering) and while we have 2 or 3 players who are more experienced generally I would say I was at the average to good end of the scale in my guild for equipment.

Here is my Armory link. If anyone would be kind enough to look at what I have done and advise me (once you have stopped laughing that is) then I would be very grateful. I want to maximize my contribution in raids without necessarily duplicating the only other serious rogue in my guild Blackehart (if you check my link below, he will be listed in the guild section) who is combat sword specc.

The World of Warcraft Armory

I appreciate all comments although I would need to be strongly persuaded to dramatically change my gameplay through talent overhauls away from subtlety. That said, I am a serious if new raider and have an ambition to progress through to BT and beyond and there are many wiser, more experienced heads in this Forum

Slightly apprehensively but gratefully yours

Redotto

If you are searching for a way to maximize your damage output in raids - you have found the right place to get information on that.
If you came to get suggestions on how to keep your subtlety spec and still do decent raid damage - forget about it.

You have to make a decision: drop subtlety, spec combat(-daggers/-swords/-fists) and become awesome in PvE damage OR keep your subtlety and accept that even BM-hunters and icemages will outdamage you in any given raid situation.

Reading and following the guide in the first post of this thread (that contains everything you need to know in order to be a good rogue for your raid) will help you if you decide for a raid-spec.

And while it may seem a big loss to give up shadowstep, its use in PvE really is not essential. On the other hand you can still respec to subtlety for PvP and fun over the weekend as many rogues do.

Hope I could help!
#1138SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3RedOtto
I was afraid that was the case. I guess you are right, shadowstep must go...

Anyone have any major thoughts on my gear?
#1139SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Rerolled
Originally Posted by RedOtto View Post
I was afraid that was the case. I guess you are right, shadowstep must go...

Anyone have any major thoughts on my gear?
The only huge issue I see is your meta gem; get a [Relentless Earthstorm Diamond]. Other than that, I highly recommend consulting Aldriana's gear spreadsheet linked in the first post of this thread to find the best upgrades at your level of progression.
#1140SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3RedOtto
will do thanks
#1141SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Ozzmar
Originally Posted by RedOtto View Post
I was afraid that was the case. I guess you are right, shadowstep must go...
Shadowstep, yes. But, the Subtlety may not.

Contrary to what Tobesbote said, you aren't limited to Combat for a reasonable amount of damage output. If you want the absolute highest damage potential, then you'd be looking at swords. But, as you said that you aren't looking for drastic play-style changes, I'd suggest you look into Mutilate (41/20/0 or 43/0/18).

Technically Combat daggers will outdamage Mutilate when all things are equal. However, with as short as most fights are in Kara, the high burst potential of Mutilate will really come through for you, and there are very few mobs that are immune to poisons (Curator, Arcane Guardians, etc).

Mutilate takes a while to learn though if you're new to it. So be patient, take the time to read through some of the huge discussions here about DPS cycles, gear choices, spec choices, etc and I think you'll be pleased with what you find.

[Rogue] DPS Spreadsheet

[Rogue] Mutilate Raid DPS Discussion
#1142SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Rothox
Just got a quick question on spec choice:

With my current gear (which is above average in my opinion, all gemmed and enchanted accordingly), I'm just wondering what spec would produce higher dps in raid situations:

Armory Profile: http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/ch...heroc&n=Rothox

Combat daggers (15/41/5) Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft - using Heartrazor The World of Warcraft Armory and S2 Offhand Dagger http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/item-info.xml?i=32046

or

Combat fist/sword (16/45/0) Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft - using Big Bad Wolf's Paw The World of Warcraft Armory and S2 Offhand Sword The World of Warcraft Armory.

All of the weapons have mongoose enchants.

Obviously the Heartrazor is stat-wise better than BBW'sP, but I'm just thinking spec wise.

If anyone has any other tips/suggestions for me (spec, gear, gems etc) feel free to comment.

Thanks,

Roth
#1143SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Shaker
[Rogue] DPS Spreadsheet
#1144SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Rothox
Was trying to use the spreadsheet earlier, but my computer is not letting me import my profile from Armory, that's why I decided to ask. Will continue to try though.
#1145SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Shaker
If you're having difficulties with the DPS sheet, you can also try the gear sheet, which has an approximation of DPS as well. In either case though, it looks like you'll have to enter in your spec/gear manually, most likely.
#1146SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Dontmindme
Originally Posted by Rothox View Post
Was trying to use the spreadsheet earlier, but my computer is not letting me import my profile from Armory, that's why I decided to ask. Will continue to try though.
If you haven't downloaded the MSXML library that is also available at the download site. The other question to ask...can you see your profile if you use your web-browser. If it doesn't load up (sometimes it doesn't), the Spreadsheet can't find it either. Of course, the Import function is rather new, so manually inputting your items is what everyone basically had to do until very recently.
#1147SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Rothox
Will keep trying then, tried all the suggestions and still no luck. Very possibly it's me and not the spreadsheet haha.

Thanks
#1148SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Ashersky
Regarding the hit cap...

A swing and miss on a level 67 mob got me thinking--how does one extrapolate the hit cap downward?

24% + (Defense Skill - Weapon Skill) * .1% = Miss Rate (source: Miss - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft)

This works out for 70 and up fairly easily, giving us a hit cap of 300 for the same level mob (24% - 5% (for 5/5 precision) to get 19% miss. 300/15.77 = 19.02%).

For a level 67 mob:

24% + (335 - 350) * .1% = 23.99%

For a level 50 mob:

24% + (250 - 350) * .1% = 23.9%

For a level 1 mob:

24% + (5 - 350) * .1% = 23.67%

The hit cap for a level 70 player against a level 1 mob with 5/5 precision is 295? Can that be right?
#1149SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3RedOtto
Originally Posted by Ozzmar View Post
Shadowstep, yes. But, the Subtlety may not.

Contrary to what Tobesbote said, you aren't limited to Combat for a reasonable amount of damage output. If you want the absolute highest damage potential, then you'd be looking at swords. But, as you said that you aren't looking for drastic play-style changes, I'd suggest you look into Mutilate (41/20/0 or 43/0/18).

Technically Combat daggers will outdamage Mutilate when all things are equal. However, with as short as most fights are in Kara, the high burst potential of Mutilate will really come through for you, and there are very few mobs that are immune to poisons (Curator, Arcane Guardians, etc).

Mutilate takes a while to learn though if you're new to it. So be patient, take the time to read through some of the huge discussions here about DPS cycles, gear choices, spec choices, etc and I think you'll be pleased with what you find.

[Rogue] DPS Spreadsheet

[Rogue] Mutilate Raid DPS Discussion

Well I bit the bullet and, after due consideration of the comments of posters here, I decided to try Combat Daggers. I went vanilla for the build suggest at the front of this thread 15/41/5 and had about 10 minutes practice on undeads, vultures and Ogres on my way into Kara as a late sub for a no-show. (I also got the right RED gem...expensive mistake, ouch)

Bingo! The game play is easy, the cooldowns on the ss and shiv are such that, as well as playing keepie uppie with SnD
I could keep a pretty constant stream of specials going in. I love blade flurry for the AOE bits... stops the mages collecting all the dps My little dps mater (30 sec snap shot) showed an average more than 80 better than before but more importantly I finished top of the dps tree... which got our mages thinking I can tell ya!

I even popped a quick BM heroic before bed and dropped a nice purple gem with agility and to hit buffs and Lantro's sword for a 2nd time! So if I go the whole hog and do combat swords I could have a matching set... what do you think?

Thanks for help, advice and kick in backside that was much appreciated.

[ I realised I hadn't mentioned about mutilate, but having tried and enjoyed this respecc, I will be eager to try others and see which suits me best. Mutilate sounds more complicated and I guess it is a confidence thing too... but appreciated the answer]

RedOtto
#1150SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Karmon
Originally Posted by Ashersky View Post
A swing and miss on a level 67 mob got me thinking--how does one extrapolate the hit cap downward?

24% + (Defense Skill - Weapon Skill) * .1% = Miss Rate (source: Miss - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft)
As per this thread the above formula was only tested and found correct for mobs of 0,1 or 2 levels above you.
It was generally assumed (and may be verified with teste on Blasted Lands mobs; cant remenber anymore ) that it applies to mobs below your level as well.

Originally Posted by Ashersky View Post
This works out for 70 and up fairly easily, giving us a hit cap of 300 for the same level mob (24% - 5% (for 5/5 precision) to get 19% miss. 300/15.77 = 19.02%).

For a level 67 mob:

24% + (335 - 350) * .1% = 23.99%
You made a small mistake. The formula should be read like this:
{24 + (mob defence skill - your weaponskill) * 0.1} %
that gives for lvl 67
24 - 15*0.1 = 22.5 %

For a level 1 mob you cant miss; the above formula gives about -10% misschance.
Of course nobody knows if the formula really can be applied to such a big leveldifference.

Last edited by Karmon : 01/25/08 at 7:42 AM. Reason: typo
#1151SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Rerolled
I've done my fair share of beating on Blasted Lands mobs since TBC, and I've never, ever seen a miss/dodge/parry, even before the expertise change. Admittedly I've never attempted to calculate the exact breakpoint where you start to see misses against them, but it's less than 280 hit rating with precision, if anyone really wants to test this out.
#1152SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 songster
Originally Posted by RedOtto View Post
Bingo! The game play is easy, the cooldowns on the ss and shiv are such that, as well as playing keepie uppie with SnD I could keep a pretty constant stream of specials going in.
OK, first thing is that if you are using daggers you should never be using Sinister Strike. Get behind the mob and use backstab. Sinister Strike is a skill that's used with slow, hard-hitting weapons. Next, you shouldn't generally shiv in PvE content. Shiv is a very low-damage move whose only benefit is that it applies poison. Its main use is in PvP combat, to make sure you get crippling poison (or wounding poison etc.) onto an opponent.

For combat daggers, you should use backstab to build combo points, keep SnD running, and spend any extra energy / combo points on Rupture. Combat swords/fists/maces are the same, except you use Sinister Strike rather than backstab.

Originally Posted by RedOtto View Post
I even popped a quick BM heroic before bed and dropped a nice purple gem with agility and to hit buffs and Lantro's sword for a 2nd time! So if I go the whole hog and do combat swords I could have a matching set... what do you think?
That would be a very very bad idea, for much the same reason. Latro's is an extremely fast sword (fastest in the game, in fact). You use it in your offhand so as to get lots of poison procs and combat potency procs. However, because it is fast, the damage per hit is low, which means the Sinister Strike damage will also be low. For combat swords/fists/maces, you want the slowest main hand weapon you can get and the fastest offhand weapon you can get. It's as simple as that.
#1153SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Larsson
SDK Buff

Hello,

i know this question myight sound stupid but did you take SDK into account when you speak about the value of each attribut? i like to socket agility and eat/drink agi food/agi pot instead of +hit because of this reason.

/edit sorry i dont know the name of the buff in english its the paladin buff which gives you 10% on all attributes praise of the kings or something

Last edited by Larsson : 01/25/08 at 8:33 AM.
#1154SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Karmon
Originally Posted by Rerolled View Post
I've done my fair share of beating on Blasted Lands mobs since TBC, and I've never, ever seen a miss/dodge/parry, even before the expertise change. Admittedly I've never attempted to calculate the exact breakpoint where you start to see misses against them, but it's less than 280 hit rating with precision, if anyone really wants to test this out.
If you are paladin (as your profile suggests), the missrate for a 1h or 2h weapon is:
5 + (5*moblevel - your skill)*0.1
This equals to zero for a level 60 mob.
So you should not miss mobs lower or equal than lvl 60 regardless of +hit items

Last edited by Karmon : 01/25/08 at 8:19 AM. Reason: typo
#1155SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Rerolled
Originally Posted by Karmon View Post
If you are paladin (as your profile suggests), the missrate for a 1h or 2h weapon is:
5 + (5*moblevel - your skill)*0.1
This equals to zero for a level 60 mob.
So you should not miss mobs lower or equal than lvl 60 regardless of +hit items
The World of Warcraft Armory (retired, I confess)

Really though, how many paladins do you see running around with 280 hit rating?
#1156SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3RedOtto
Originally Posted by songster View Post
OK, first thing is that if you are using daggers you should never be using Sinister Strike. Get behind the mob and use backstab. Sinister Strike is a skill that's used with slow, hard-hitting weapons. Next, you shouldn't generally shiv in PvE content. Shiv is a very low-damage move whose only benefit is that it applies poison. Its main use is in PvP combat, to make sure you get crippling poison (or wounding poison etc.) onto an opponent.

For combat daggers, you should use backstab to build combo points, keep SnD running, and spend any extra energy / combo points on Rupture. Combat swords/fists/maces are the same, except you use Sinister Strike rather than backstab.

That would be a very very bad idea, for much the same reason. Latro's is an extremely fast sword (fastest in the game, in fact). You use it in your offhand so as to get lots of poison procs and combat potency procs. However, because it is fast, the damage per hit is low, which means the Sinister Strike damage will also be low. For combat swords/fists/maces, you want the slowest main hand weapon you can get and the fastest offhand weapon you can get. It's as simple as that.
ROFLMAO... just as I thought I might be getting something right!

Still, on the upside, I will be able to tell my mage buddies that they are really crap if I still beat them, lol

So let me see if I have this straight... I open from ambush or cheap shot as circumstances dictate,SnD, backstab, backstab (the if solo...gouge backstab) 4-5 cp then rupture, backstab SnD rinse & repeat?
I guess it seems like i should be doing something else while waiting for cd on bs.
#1157SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
todesbote
Originally Posted by Larsson View Post
Hello,

i know this question myight sound stupid but did you take SDK into account when you speak about the value of each attribut? i like to socket agility and eat/drink agi food/agi pot instead of +hit because of this reason.

/edit sorry i dont know the name of the buff in english its the paladin buff which gives you 10% on all attributes praise of the kings or something
Its 'Blessing of Kings' and yes, its considered but still hit is way better until you are hit-capped.


Originally Posted by RedOtto View Post
ROFLMAO... just as I thought I might be getting something right!

Still, on the upside, I will be able to tell my mage buddies that they are really crap if I still beat them, lol

So let me see if I have this straight... I open from ambush or cheap shot as circumstances dictate,SnD, backstab, backstab (the if solo...gouge backstab) 4-5 cp then rupture, backstab SnD rinse & repeat?
I guess it seems like i should be doing something else while waiting for cd on bs.
hehe, thats true.

Backstab does not have a cooldown. its practically the only style you want to use your energy with.
You start the fight with Ambush/Cheapshot, SnD and start building combopoints with backstab. As soon as SnD runs out (you should have built 4-5 combo points by then) you refresh it. Your main intention is to keep SnD up and running. Try that for a few times and you will notice that you generate more combo points than needed to keep up SnD. For those combo points rupture is the best option to use them with. You just have to try it out and play with it. You will get good at it very fast. The better you get at managing your combopoints the more damage you will be able to do.

It can be confusing but I also want to tell you: try to keep up SnD using as few combopoints as possible. The first combopoint spent on SnD gives you 13 seconds. The second-fifth combo points only add 4.
Your goal is a 3s/5s/5r cycle, but its never predictable how that will work out considering combat potency. Keeping up SnD will do it for now.

Good luck

Last edited by todesbote : 01/25/08 at 9:04 AM.
#1158SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Littlefinger
Originally Posted by Larsson View Post
Hello,

i know this question myight sound stupid but did you take SDK into account when you speak about the value of each attribut? i like to socket agility and eat/drink agi food/agi pot instead of +hit because of this reason.

/edit sorry i dont know the name of the buff in english its the paladin buff which gives you 10% on all attributes praise of the kings or something
Not a direct answer but if you go by spreadsheet results then it's hte buffed DPS that's of any value and that usually involves Blessing of Kings.

As a note though. Even when figuring in BoK +20 hit food will probably still benefit you more than agility food. For me it's a 3 DPS diffrence over 20 agi last time I checked.
#1159SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Karmon
Originally Posted by Rerolled View Post
The World of Warcraft Armory (retired, I confess)

Really though, how many paladins do you see running around with 280 hit rating?
None of course

Following up on the missrate.
If the formula is correct for mobs below your level you can derive this formula for the required hitrating to never miss
a mob (assuming 5% precision and dualwielding)
hitrating >= 205/13 *(moblevel/2 -16).

So with your 280 hitrating you never miss mobs below lvl 68 and to never miss a lvl 57 mob requires only
190 hitrating.
#1160SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Krennick
Regarding the issue of miss rates on mobs below your level I recently noticed this post in a different thread on this forum, which I hope will prove helpful:
http://elitistjerks.com/589919-post201.html

A bit of digging around in that thread will probably supply the rest of the relevant numbers, but it seems that one theory of miss rate on lower level mobs has at least been proven.

Edit note: I was wrong.

Last edited by Krennick : 01/25/08 at 11:45 AM.
#1161SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Karmon
Originally Posted by Krennick View Post
Regarding the issue of miss rates on mobs below your level I recently noticed this post in a different thread on this forum, which I hope will prove helpful:
http://elitistjerks.com/589919-post201.html

A bit of digging around in that thread will probably supply the rest of the relevant numbers, but it seems that one theory of miss rate on lower level mobs has at least been proven.
As I read this thread, it deals with lowlevel mob hitting higher level player.
It is entire possible that for the case mob hits player total different formuals apply.
#1162SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Annihilus
Originally Posted by RedOtto View Post
ROFLMAO... just as I thought I might be getting something right!

Still, on the upside, I will be able to tell my mage buddies that they are really crap if I still beat them, lol

So let me see if I have this straight... I open from ambush or cheap shot as circumstances dictate,SnD, backstab, backstab (the if solo...gouge backstab) 4-5 cp then rupture, backstab SnD rinse & repeat?
I guess it seems like i should be doing something else while waiting for cd on bs.
Also, and especially against Raid Bosses, you should probably be using Garrotte to open with instead of Ambush. The damage over time from Garrotte will most likely be better than the Ambush burst.
#1163SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Ozzmar
Originally Posted by RedOtto View Post
So let me see if I have this straight... I open from ambush or cheap shot as circumstances dictate,SnD, backstab, backstab (the if solo...gouge backstab) 4-5 cp then rupture, backstab SnD rinse & repeat?
I guess it seems like i should be doing something else while waiting for cd on bs.
Actually, you're better off using Garrote, or not using Stealth at all. Stealth just slows you down, and means you take even longer to get to the mob. On top of that, many mobs in Kara and above are immune to Cheap Shot, and an untimely Ambush crit can have you one-shotted and dead on the floor.

Garrote ignores armor, and it's more evenly-spread threat. So it's the best opener if you decide to Stealth. If not, just hit a Backstab and get Slice and Dice running as quickly as possible.

Also some important nuggets:

Slice and Dice is more important than Rupture! As Combat daggers, at least 60% of your damage should be white (possibly more), and Slice and Dice is a big contributor to that. Rupture is only in the DPS cycle to burn extra combo points between Slice and Dice refreshes.

Why Rupture? Well, for the same reason that you want to use Garrote over Ambush. It's a cheap finisher that ignores armor, and won't cause threat spikes that can get you killed. Also note that a 3cp Rupture and a 5cp rupture both receive the same AP bonus. The only difference is that a 5cp Rupture lasts longer (but still does the same DPS).

For that reason, you can also find some Combat dagger rogues using a 1s/3r cycle. It's easy to maintain and manage, and the only downside is that you'll probably see a lot less returns from Relentless Strikes (which makes 3s/5s/5r better).
#1164SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3RedOtto
Originally Posted by todesbote View Post
Its 'Blessing of Kings' and yes, its considered but still hit is way better until you are hit-capped.




hehe, thats true.

Backstab does not have a cooldown. its practically the only style you want to use your energy with.
You start the fight with Ambush/Cheapshot, SnD and start building combopoints with backstab. As soon as SnD runs out (you should have built 4-5 combo points by then) you refresh it. Your main intention is to keep SnD up and running. Try that for a few times and you will notice that you generate more combo points than needed to keep up SnD. For those combo points rupture is the best option to use them with. You just have to try it out and play with it. You will get good at it very fast. The better you get at managing your combopoints the more damage you will be able to do.

It can be confusing but I also want to tell you: try to keep up SnD using as few combopoints as possible. The first combopoint spent on SnD gives you 13 seconds. The second-fifth combo points only add 4.
Your goal is a 3s/5s/5r cycle, but its never predictable how that will work out considering combat potency. Keeping up SnD will do it for now.

Good luck

TY

My bad phrasing... i meant the downtime between being able to use BS again as opposed to a cd
It just seems very 'retro'... this was how I leveled... but it's ok, I have been warned officially already for stupidity
#1165SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Nock
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
Now, the key thing here is that a lot of rogues are using 1.5 speed OHs, don't have 2/5 T6 for faster SnD, may not have 58 haste rating on OH, etc.
Hopefully this isn't taken out of context too much, but I was just wondering what the relevance of 58 haste rating on the OH has here? I looked at your gear and noted you just had the 27 haste on the bracers. I'm not sure if you're taking that + the average of DST (which I thought was higher, but i'll admit that I don't remember off of the top of my head) or if this was just a number to bring the 1.5 speed down to 1.4 speed.
#1166SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Katria
Originally Posted by todesbote View Post
Its 'Blessing of Kings' and yes, its considered but still hit is way better until you are hit-capped.
I'd say this depends. Hit rating is generally better, but I think it depends on your gear level. For a while, in a mix of kara gear and some trickle-down crafted epics, the spreadsheet had agility as worth more than hit for me, and I'm well under the hit-cap. With my current gear, and the buffs I can expect when I run kara, 1 hit is worth 1.04 agility...not a big difference.

If you are 25-man raiding, and can expect full buffs (things like windfury, which I've had for a total of 1 five-man instance lol), I don't doubt your numbers. But at lower gear levels...I'd say check the sheet. Also, agility offers side benefits...added armor and more importantly, dodge. Sure in a 25 man raid a rogue probably never gets hit. But in 5 mans I take hits from time to time, and I still run heroics now and again, and more dodge is nice for pvp.

True I have gemmed for hit...but I wouldn't hold it against someone to gem for agility. Depending on their gear, it could even be a DPS improvement. In fact, I would imagine for most rogues at my gear level and below that agility may be better than hit...or at least a wash. In which case the side-benefits from agility make it better.
#1167SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Aldriana
Originally Posted by Nock View Post
Hopefully this isn't taken out of context too much, but I was just wondering what the relevance of 58 haste rating on the OH has here? I looked at your gear and noted you just had the 27 haste on the bracers. I'm not sure if you're taking that + the average of DST (which I thought was higher, but i'll admit that I don't remember off of the top of my head) or if this was just a number to bring the 1.5 speed down to 1.4 speed.
At the time I wrote that I had not yet found Signet of Primal Wrath, so was using Band of Devastation in addition to Swiftstrike Bracers, hence, 58 haste rating. The relevance of this is that haste gives you more OH attacks and hence more chances to proc poison, and will thus increase the rate at which poison stacks up and reduces the chance of the stack dropping.
#1168SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3V2Viper25
How much hit rating does an end game rogue want to shoot for? Right now I have 313.
#1169SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Latito
Originally Posted by V2Viper25 View Post
How much hit rating does an end game rogue want to shoot for? Right now I have 313.
Does it matter? Hit is just a number. DPS is what matters. Having 363 hit and 1500 AP would be pretty dumb. Balance your stats. In the case of gemming, hit is *generally* the best stat for *most* rogues. For gearing though, picking a piece just because it has hit is retarded. Hit is a good stat - but thats all it is, a stat. Multiply your hit, haste, ap, arm pen, haste, crit, etc to get a more important number.

Note - get a helm w/ a Meta slot and use RED. Enchant your OH. Why did you socket a purple into your Nynjah boots.. you dropped 4 agi/hit to get the 3-hit socket bonus. Would of been better off ignoring the socket bonus. Similar for the chest/helm, although you can justify 2 blues for a RED meta.. not that you have one.
#1170SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Trocanter
I have a Math-type question ,is there a simple way to figure out how much AP a certain # of Ignore Armor is worth?
EXP 100 Ignore Armor = ??? AP

The Reason being I was thinking about for my next possible upgrade ory's Embrace, and 2 Daggers of Bad Mojo with Executioner on MH and Mongoose on OH. I thought this would go nicely with my 3/3 of Serrated Blades.
#1171SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Ozzmar
I'd suggest you spend some time learning how armor penetration works before dropping all that cash and those badges on ArP gear. It can be a powerful stat, but (no offense) your question kinda indicates that you don't really have a clue how it works.

Long story short, the more armor a mob/player has, the less effective it becomes. Therefore, having passive ArP against a mob with 5 Sunders on it can be pretty powerful. Likewise if you take Improved Expose Armor and frequently run with a paladin or druid tank. However, against high-armor targets, it makes very little difference.

The amount of actual DPS you gain is correlated to how much armor your target has. There is plenty of discussion on this if you search the forums.
#1172SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Dontmindme
The simple way to determine the ratio is to download one of the two Rogue Spreadsheets and enter your gear/buffs/etc. Both of the spreadsheets show stat equivalences (although I believe both express them as relative to Agility) The term AP is confusing as I've seen it used to refer to both attack power or agility.
#1173SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Arindelest
Originally Posted by Dontmindme View Post
The simple way to determine the ratio is to download one of the two Rogue Spreadsheets and enter your gear/buffs/etc. Both of the spreadsheets show stat equivalences (although I believe both express them as relative to Agility) The term AP is confusing as I've seen it used to refer to both attack power or agility.
The Gear Spreadsheet uses APEP.

As has been said multiple times, if you need more explicit values than those used in the first post of this thread, open the Gear Sheet (or I guess the DPS Sheet too), input your gear and buffs, and then either unhide the DamageCalcs sheet (for the former)/use the AEP calculator on the first page (for the latter).
#1174SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3saedo
I'm trying to figure out a better cycle for trash, and perhaps bosses with sufficient interrupt times, and thought that maybe the 3r cycles would be fitting for it. Since it'll tick for the same as 5r just shorter duration. So something similar to dagger compressed cycle for 1s/3r. But for swords of course it doesn't seem to work too well, found most of the time there's a lot of time left on SnD and or Rupture. So, is there a recommended cycle for this? Or am I just off and should just stick with 5r cycles?
#1175SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Pumpkinator
Guys quick question from me. I'm enchanting my 2 swords (2.7 and 1.5 speed).

Should I get double Mongoose or executioner on MH and mongoose on OH?
#1176SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3koaschten
The answer is in the first post of this thread in the spreadsheets. Aswell there was a lengthy discussion in a seperate threat on this very same board.
[Raid] Executioner vs. Mongoose, preliminary numbers
#1177SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Shaker
Motion to add this to the first post:

Regarding Mongoose and Executioner Enchants:

Both Mongoose and Executioner enchants are very powerful for rogues. In general they are very close to one another in value, and the only thing you can really do wrong is to enchant both MH and OH with Executioner - as the added benefit from a 2nd Executioner enchant is much less, due to stacking issues. However, as a guideline, according to the best information that we have available, here are some recommendations. These recommendations are for Combat Spec'd rogues.

Karazhan/T4 geared rogue: Mongoose on both hands
T5 gear: Executioner or Mongoose MH (very close in value), Mongoose on offhand
T6 gear: Executioner MH, Mongoose OH
#1178SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Bluefish
I suggest a note being included about the dodge from Mongoose -- sure the chances of it actually being useful (enchant being proc'd and you need to dodge something) are fairly low, but even at the very high ArP range, isn't the difference between Mongoose and Executioner pretty small? If your guild competes for WWS clears, that's one thing, but most of us just want to get through stuff that's new to us, and that sometimes involves things like Evasion-tanking Kaz'rogal... >.>
#1179SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3tymoney321
So I've been thinking about my Najentus Rotation and I'm wondering if it would be worth it to shiv during his shield. If only to build up combo points for a SND or a rupture.
#1180SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Batory
Originally Posted by saedo View Post
I'm trying to figure out a better cycle for trash, and perhaps bosses with sufficient interrupt times, and thought that maybe the 3r cycles would be fitting for it. Since it'll tick for the same as 5r just shorter duration. So something similar to dagger compressed cycle for 1s/3r. But for swords of course it doesn't seem to work too well, found most of the time there's a lot of time left on SnD and or Rupture. So, is there a recommended cycle for this? Or am I just off and should just stick with 5r cycles?
I was thinking same for last couple of weeks. Basicly cycles like 3s/5r work really well with only handful amount of interupts. There isn't many fights in MH/BT (at least those I encountered already, like 5/5 MH and 4/9 BT) that have alot of interupts, maybe beside randomness on Azgalor and Archmonde, and Akama's channelers short HP. However, on those fights sometimes I find 3/5 way to long to keep 100% of its power, I can imagine that with 5/5 or so, it's gettin even worse.

I haven't tested 1/3 or other cycle combinations yet, but it would be nice to run some tests on shorter time periods and see what works better and whats not. I really hope for theorycraft EJ masterminds input on that
#1181SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Pale
I've read most of the comments on Shadowstep (including the -12% estimate). I'm no math wizard, so I tend to put quite some faith in the sheet (using 2.3.2.9 atm). The weird thing is that if I put my gear in (Armory link) which is mostly T4, Heartless and Searing Sunblade OH, the sheet shows my dps with combat swords is roughly equal (1% difference, depending on OH chosen) to Shadowstep/Assassination.

So the point is: I'm really surprised by the minimal difference between combat and sub in the sheet. I know sub has been buffed a lot lately, but I hadn't expected it to be this viable. However, I've seen the comments in this thread (which come down to: ShS sucks, except for highly mobile fights) so I'm doubting the sheet now. Either the sheet is a bit too enthusiastic about ShS, or perhaps it's just a fluke having to do with my gearlevel?

PS: you can diss ShS all you want, but seeing a fellow rogue ShS behind Al'ar in phase 1: priceless
#1182SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Ozzmar
Well, 3 things I would have you consider before putting too much stock into what the spreadsheet is telling you:

1. Your crit is pretty high for Combat.
2. Your hit is pretty low for Combat.
3. You're offhanding a dagger and getting much less benefit from Sword Specialization.

Try bumping up your hit rating and putting a Season 1 offhand on, and see what that does to your theoretical DPS.
#1183SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Fenwick
I have a question regarding rupture and adjusting cycles on the fly. I've noticed in a few places where people have mentioned that 3r and 5r receive the same AP benefit, and although I understand the AP formula behind rupture, I may be mixed up on the underlying mechanics.

Currently, if I start getting into trouble with SnD up time or energy (currently run 1s/5r) due to bad luck with CP procs, I'll blow my rupture on the target at the point where I know I can't get to 5 points but still have time to get 1 point for SnD. Generally I have 4 points on target when this happens. Is there any advantage w/ regard to rupture to placing it on the target with 3 points instead of 4? Aside from the obvious point that I'd have a little more time for energy regen, that is.

I guess I'm just not sure exactly how people are saying that a 3r receives the same bonus as a 5r, and how it applies to broken cycles.
#1184SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 songster
What it means is that 3r, 4r and 5r do the same damage per tick, they just don't last as long. 1r and 2r not only last for a short time, but they also do less damage per tick. However, if you find yourself cutting a cycle short, you should still use the largest possible rupture that still leaves you enough time to get s'n'd running again.
#1185SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Pale
Originally Posted by Ozzmar View Post
Well, 3 things I would have you consider before putting too much stock into what the spreadsheet is telling you:

1. Your crit is pretty high for Combat.
2. Your hit is pretty low for Combat.
3. You're offhanding a dagger and getting much less benefit from Sword Specialization.

Try bumping up your hit rating and putting a Season 1 offhand on, and see what that does to your theoretical DPS.
If I equip the S2 OH, and replace my 4agi/4hit gems with 8hit gems (4x) combat swords does 1.18% more dps than Assassination/Shadowstep..... Without replacing the gems it's 1.10%. Raidbuffed percentages btw, 1311dps vs 1297dps.

Not sure why my crit is high, probably because I value agi>hit. The reason for that is that with my high agi, i'm next to unhittable when popping evasion. And I value survivability above doing 0.1% more dps
#1186SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 songster
Are you sure you're modelling Hemo accurately? If you have it ticked in both parts of the spreadsheet, you'll be overstating your DPS considerably.
#1187SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Devil Warrior
I'm currently specced 11/9/41 for raiding, MHing Rod of the Sunking and OHing Tracker's Blade, and I'm usually pretty even, personal DPS wise, with our well geared Mutilate rogue, (4/5 T5, Bad Mojo, Tracker's Blade, AToL). This isn't taking into account in any way the hemo debuff however. Comparing to Combat Swords, my overall DPS (including the hemo debuff) seems to be about equal to where I was specced combat Swords (Blade of Infamy, S2 OH). The Spreadsheet also has me doing about 30dps more overall (counting debuff) than with the Combat Swords spec.

Of course, it requires Rod of the Sun King, which is a really awesome weapon, too bad its not Blade of the Sun King.
#1188SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Cos-
Originally Posted by Devil Warrior View Post
I'm currently specced 11/9/41 for raiding, MHing Rod of the Sunking and OHing Tracker's Blade, and I'm usually pretty even, personal DPS wise, with our well geared Mutilate rogue, (4/5 T5, Bad Mojo, Tracker's Blade, AToL). This isn't taking into account in any way the hemo debuff however. Comparing to Combat Swords, my overall DPS (including the hemo debuff) seems to be about equal to where I was specced combat Swords (Blade of Infamy, S2 OH). The Spreadsheet also has me doing about 30dps more overall (counting debuff) than with the Combat Swords spec.

Of course, it requires Rod of the Sun King, which is a really awesome weapon, too bad its not Blade of the Sun King.
Show us some wws :P If you're just keeping up with a mutilate rogue I'm not impressed yet.
#1189SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Hanos
Originally Posted by Devil Warrior View Post
I'm currently specced 11/9/41 for raiding, MHing Rod of the Sunking and OHing Tracker's Blade, and I'm usually pretty even, personal DPS wise, with our well geared Mutilate rogue, (4/5 T5, Bad Mojo, Tracker's Blade, AToL). This isn't taking into account in any way the hemo debuff however. Comparing to Combat Swords, my overall DPS (including the hemo debuff) seems to be about equal to where I was specced combat Swords (Blade of Infamy, S2 OH). The Spreadsheet also has me doing about 30dps more overall (counting debuff) than with the Combat Swords spec.

Of course, it requires Rod of the Sun King, which is a really awesome weapon, too bad its not Blade of the Sun King.
Considering it sounds like you are raiding T6 level content, what levels of DPS are you putting out? At this point no one has been able to show with any reasonable WWS that they can sustain close to combat swords level DPS with Mutilate or Shadowstep. Certain fights you might, but until we see some 2k+ Teron Parses with Shadowstep or Mutilate, you are going to have a hard time finding believers here.
#1190SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3TheDoctor
Extra CPs and snd time

Alright I have been reading the forums here for a while and have a situation now that the only thing I can find about it is to use a 1s/5r and cut the extra snd time.

The only issue I am having is that there are a lot of times that I cut a good amount of snd time and get back to a 5r well before I can apply it. This leaves me SSing until I can apply rupture and losing the CPs. If I know I am going to be running far enough ahead of the 5r time, have the CPs/Energy, and won't risk dropping SnD... Should I do a 1-3 CP finisher before building my 5r.

Something like...
1s/5r - 1s/5r (realize running ahead) - 1s/2e/5r - back to 1s/5r or continue with a short CP finisher if cycle allows.

If the 1/x/5 is worth doing what finisher should the x be? I am a combat sword spec, and don't have improved evis.

Or should I run with a shorter rupture like 1s/4r and just cut the SnD?
#1191SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Ozzmar
Originally Posted by Pale View Post
If I equip the S2 OH, and replace my 4agi/4hit gems with 8hit gems (4x) combat swords does 1.18% more dps than Assassination/Shadowstep..... Without replacing the gems it's 1.10%. Raidbuffed percentages btw, 1311dps vs 1297dps.

Not sure why my crit is high, probably because I value agi>hit. The reason for that is that with my high agi, i'm next to unhittable when popping evasion. And I value survivability above doing 0.1% more dps
Well that's your choice. I just want you to understand that the minimal difference between specs that you're observing is simply due to not being properly geared/gemmed for Combat.

A cada su propio.
#1192SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Dontmindme
A couple things...
The spreadsheet has not double-dipped on Hemo DPS in a number of versions (fixed in 2.3.2.5). If Hemo Debuff Estimate is enabled, the Hemo debuff in the buffs section does nothing anymore, so having both on is ok. You can check this by selecting a Hemo build with Hemo Debuff Estimate on. Add Hemo debuff under Buffs and you will see the DPS doesn't change anymore.

The Hemo debuff amounts to a sizable amount of damage now that its up to 42 per tick or 420 per Hemo application which can be multiplied on Crits and other skill/talents/buffs which give damage multipliers while, of course, being mitigated by Armor reduction. It's not too unreasonable to estimate that the raid could be gaining about 120 dps for the debuff alone over ones own personal damage. Of course what that means for the WWS parse if the spreadsheet is showing a 30 DPS benefit is that one's personal damage is now somewhere about 90 DPS behind Combat Swords.

So just as DPS Warriors sometimes wear Solarian's Sapphire to boost raid dps (at the sacrifice of personal DPS), some rogues will be Hemo to boost raid DPS. I personally see little wrong with that. I should add that at the point where you are only about 30 DPS with the debuff ahead of Combat Swords, a 2nd Hemo rogue will probably negate just about all of the advantage in occasional debuff overlap. But if you are the only Hemo Rogue, I'd guess it's still a raid advantage.
#1193SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Hanos
Originally Posted by TheDoctor View Post
Alright I have been reading the forums here for a while and have a situation now that the only thing I can find about it is to use a 1s/5r and cut the extra snd time.

The only issue I am having is that there are a lot of times that I cut a good amount of snd time and get back to a 5r well before I can apply it. This leaves me SSing until I can apply rupture and losing the CPs. If I know I am going to be running far enough ahead of the 5r time, have the CPs/Energy, and won't risk dropping SnD... Should I do a 1-3 CP finisher before building my 5r.

Something like...
1s/5r - 1s/5r (realize running ahead) - 1s/2e/5r - back to 1s/5r or continue with a short CP finisher if cycle allows.

If the 1/x/5 is worth doing what finisher should the x be? I am a combat sword spec, and don't have improved evis.

Or should I run with a shorter rupture like 1s/4r and just cut the SnD?
1s/5r is going to be pretty close to the edge of sustainability. Your armory is showing 329 Hit Rating unbuffed, which means you are running at 349 buffed, which is very high, and will yield a proportionately high number of CP Procs. In addition you are using 4/5 T4 which is going to give you an additional Combo Point some of the time. The result of this is that while a normal rogue using 2/4 T4 is going to get 1 CP 60% of the time, you are going to 1 or 2 at times, and will have atleast 1 more often. This also means you are going to have occational 2 point S&D's without ever SS's after your finisher.

My recommendation without going into too much math, would be to first off migrate to some higher DPS items (T5 gloves and shoulders), and just plan on cutting and having slack time in your cycle. The DPS you will get from any 2 point finisher is going to be inferior to just SS'ing more. If you have 5 CP's, use Rupture, if Rupture is still up, wait until you have 70 energy to use it, then fire off S&D again if you get 1-2 CP's, if not SS 1 time and fire off S&D. If you get in a situation where you can't ruture due to the last one being up with Mongoose/Trinket, then wait for it to fade, refresh it, and the S&D or SS then S&D.

Bottomline, 1s/5r is about as good as you are going to get, if you have too much slack in that and are getting cycles shorter then rupture, and are in danger of energy capping, more Sinister Strikes will be better then anything less then a 4-5 point Eviserate (your SS is going to hit harder and won't disrupt your cycle).
#1194SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3TheDoctor
Thank you very much Nessala... Good to know that the extra Sinister strikes I have been throwing wasn't incorrect.

Yeah I will be breaking the T4 4piece soon. Shortly I will be up for my T5 gloves and maybe some 'Shoulderpads of the Stranger' if they ever drop. I didn't really want to run any funky cycles and then not have the extra CPs after upping gear and get all messed up.
#1195SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3hannigaholic
Originally Posted by Pale View Post
If I equip the S2 OH, and replace my 4agi/4hit gems with 8hit gems (4x) combat swords does 1.18% more dps than Assassination/Shadowstep..... Without replacing the gems it's 1.10%. Raidbuffed percentages btw, 1311dps vs 1297dps.

Not sure why my crit is high, probably because I value agi>hit. The reason for that is that with my high agi, i'm next to unhittable when popping evasion. And I value survivability above doing 0.1% more dps
I really don't think this is a gemming issue, since gems make up the equivilent of roughly an extra pice of gear and thus are not going to skew your results dramatically.

My guess is that you simply have the option "include Hemo debuff in DPS estimate" turned on so you're actually seeing your raidwide total dps rather than just your personal dps. My own 11/9/41 Shadowstep build (which is 1.9% more dps than 20/0/41 in my current gear) comes out 11% behind Combat Swords for personal dps. When I check the "include Hemo debuff in DPS estimate" box it comes out 0.5% behind Combat Swords in blues/T4 and 0.8% in my current T4/T5 gear.

Basically what that tells us is that by speccing any variant of Shadowstep we're bringing less dps to the raid as a whole than if we simply specced Combat Swords. Not by a lot, not a lot at all in fact, but still less.
#1196SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Hanos
Originally Posted by hannigaholic View Post
Basically what that tells us is that by speccing any variant of Shadowstep we're bringing less dps to the raid as a whole than if we simply specced Combat Swords. Not by a lot, not a lot at all in fact, but still less.
Which is still based on the assumption that every charge is used every time it is applied, which simply isn't the case (example: you shadowstep back in, Hemo, and then Hemo again 1 second later, before any of the other melee gets back in, or at the very least, before they can use all the charges). The bottom line is that the very best case scenario is still worse then the worse case scenario for combat (since you normally get a disproportionately high value from cooldowns unless they come up again right as the boss dies).
#1197SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Dontmindme
Ok, so point for discussion. I decided this is probably the better forum to present this given that it has implications to mechanics as a whole. I apologize in advance for the in-depth mathematics.

This weekend I started to go through some mathematical theorycraft for some of the game mechanics starting with PPM. My goal was to arrive at a formula that properly converted a proc per unit time into % uptime.

So I began with the concept of a PPM proc that on average procs once every 50 seconds but could conceivably proc back-to-back (i.e. no cooldown) with a duration of 15 seconds. Some may recognize this as 1.2 ppm on a single weapon auto-attacking with either Mongoose or Executioner if one believes the proc rate to be 1.2.
So, to create a formula we have:
Pf = Proc Frequency (for this example 50 seconds)
Pd = Proc Duration
Up = % Uptime

So, looking at at if on average it seems a 15 second proc every 50 seconds gives 30% uptime, but this doesn't account for potential overlap. So we really know 30% is a cap.
Ov = % Overlap

So, we have:
Up = Pd/Pf*(1-Ov)


Now, what should the % overlap be? Clearly, % Overlap should equal % Uptime.
So, we now have:
Up = Pd/Pf*(1-Up)
Solving for Up we get:
Up = Pd/(Pf+Pd)

So, for the example above we get 15/(50+15) = 23.1% uptime which is pretty close to the 25% estimates I've seen thrown out.

So, let's check this calculation. First, let's assume Proc frequency approaches 0. In that case we get Pd/Pd = 1 or 100% uptime. That works!
Let's use another example. Let's assume a proc frequency of 10 seconds for a proc with duration of 10 seconds. It should be fairly obvious that because of proc overlaps you are going to have a 50% uptime. Plugging it into the equation we get... 10/(10+10) = 0.5 or 50%

So, I believe I have derived a simple formula for % uptime conversion...feel free to check the math, but it appears accurate.

Now, step 2, the dreaded Deadly Poison proc calculation. This becomes difficult because each proc adds another dose, still this formula could be used to derive % uptime (i.e % one has any combo points)
Pf can be determined by 1/(Att/sec*ProcChance)...
Aps = Attacks per second
Pr = Proc Rate
Using the formula, Up = 12/(1/(Aps*Pr)+12)
So, the downtime = 1- that value.

We now know the percent downtime or in other words the percent of time that we have no DP up. Of course this doesn't take into account skills that use up one's Poison, but is the first step in the rest of the equation.

I'll stop here for discussion, still working through and verifying my other calcs for uptime at various doses...

Thoughts? Comments?
#1198SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Pale
Thanks Hanos and Hannigaholic. I can't check it now, but this must be the case.

@hanos: I'll still gem the same. The difference from the +8hit gems is so minimal (and only while fully raidbuffed) that it's not worth the loss in survivability imo. And that's all that it is, my opinion
#1199SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
 Aldriana
DMM:

For Deadly Poison, I would recommend looking at post 883; it is, to my knowledge, the best known model of Deadly Poison uptime (and the one used in v0.9.3 and higher of the Rogue Gear sheet)

For Mongoose:

Well, first, let me derive the canonical formula for Mongoose Uptime.
If the proc occurs once every Pf seconds on average, that means that the chance it procs during any particular second is 1/Pf, which I will denote for the moment as p. Let q = 1-p.

Now, lets consider the actual uptime granted by a mongoose proc that starts at T=0. We will condition on the time of the next proc. For simplicity I'm going to use the actual duration of 15 seconds, but the same technique is easily extended to general times.

If the following proc occurs at T=15 or later, the initial proc gives a full 15 seconds of uptime. However, if the following proc occurs at time T=t for t<15, the initial proc only gives t seconds of uptime; uptime after that point is counted towards the following proc.

Now, the probability that the next proc occurs at time T=t is the probability that it procs at that time (which we've defined to be p) times the probability that none of the t-1 preceding seconds contains a proc, which is easily shown to be q^{t-1}. Hence, the expected uptime gained by our proc of Mongoose is then:

p + 2pq + 3pq^2 + ... + 14pq^13+15pq^14(1 + q + q^2 + ...)
Now, 1 + q + q^2 + q^3 + ... is a well-known infinite sum; it's value is easily shown to be 1/(1-q). But 1-q = p, so our formula simplifies to

p + 2pq + 3pq^2 + ... + 14pq^13+15q^14

Let us then write 15q^14 = 14q^14 + q^14; this then combines with the preceding term as follows:
14pq^13 + 14q^14 + q^14

[top]14q^13(p+q)+q^14


14q^13 + q^14

as p+q = 1. But then applying the same trick repeatedly, we find that the entire sum telescopes down to
1+q+q^2+...+q^14

which is easily shown to be

(1-q^15)/(1-q) = (1-q^15)/p

Now, since procs by defenition occur once every 1/p seconds on average, the average *uptime* is then (1-q^15)/p seconds out of every 1/p; hence, average uptime is simply 1-q^15.

Substituting back in your variables, this becomes 1-(1-1/Pf)^Pd. This would be the estimate that is used in the Rogue Gear sheet.

Now, lets see how this compares to your formula;

Again, let 1/Pf = p, and Pd = n (for notational simplicity). hence we wish to evaluate

1-(1-p)^n

Expanding by the binomial theorem, we have (1-p)^n = 1 - np + n(n-1)/2 * p^2 + ....
If p is small, we can cross off the higher order terms, as they will be small in comparison to the first few. hence, lets approximate this as
1-(1 - np + n(n-1)/2* p^2) = np(1 - (n-1)p/2)
Substituting in your variables, we have Pd/Pf * (1 - (Pd-1)/2Pf)

Now, if (Pd-1)/2Pf is small, this is roughly equal to

Pd/Pf * (1/(1 + (Pd-1)/2Pf)) = Pd/(Pf + (Pd-1)/2)

Assuming Pd >> 1 (i.e.., Pd = 15), this becomes

Pd/(Pf+.5Pd)

Which is... certainly similar to what you came up with, but is definitely a bit different.

So, how accurate are these various models? Well, for Pd = 15 and Pf = 50, your model gives 23.08%; my approximate model gives 26.09%; and the full exact model I derived gives 26.14%.

So, if one is interested in maximum accuracy, I would go with the formula 1-(1-1/Pf)^Pd. However, if you want a simpler formula, I would use Pd/(Pf+.5Pd) rather than Pd/(Pf+Pd), as it is equally simple and much more accurate.

Edit for additional details
The problem with the approximation you performed is that while the probability that a proc occurs during an existing uptime period can reasonably be approximated by (1-Up); however, a proc occurring during an existing proc does not totally waste the uptime of that proc; on average, in only wastes half of it. Hence, the way you've defined Up and Ov, you actually have Ov = Up/2. Hence, the formula to be solving is Up = Pd/Pf * (1-Up/2), which simplifies to the Up = Pd/(Pf + .5Pd) I derive above. The difference between the approximation and the full solution is that the actual uptime lost isn't exactly half on average; given that overlap occurs, the time at which the 2nd proc occurs is not uniformly distributed over the input times, but, instead, a probability distribution determined by the exact values of Pf and Pd.

Last edited by Aldriana : 01/28/08 at 8:11 PM.
#1200SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Dontmindme
Actually, you miss the point of (1-Up). 1-Up is the average % portion of each proc which is lost. Or, on average, one loses of ones duration a percentage of it relative to uptime and only gains relative to downtime. Pd/(Pf+0.5Pd) is clearly wrong because as one's proc frequency approaches 0 you'd have a 200% uptime.

Also, the problem with your model of a Mongoose proc beginning at T=0 is the possibility that it over laps with a proc starting at T=-15 to T=0. As this is a continually modeled system, one must address that possibility as well.

Last edited by Dontmindme : 01/28/08 at 9:36 PM.
#1201SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Aldriana
Yes, the model breaks down in the degenerate case as t = 0 (and, in particular, whenever Pd > 2Pf). However, the number of procs that this is true for is vanishingly small; for all real procs, where Pf > 2Pd, Pd/(Pf+.5Pd) is a superior estimate.

Regarding your critique of my model: that's actually factored in. Note that we're defining the length of a proc as "the time from this proc until the next proc, up to a maximum of 15 seconds". Hence, the removal of the overlap between the current proc and the preceding one is taken into account by the truncation of the preceding proc rather than needing to remove anything from the one we're analyzing.

So, for instance, lets say there are procs at T=-5, T = 0, T=10, and T=30. This means that Mongoose would actually be up from T=-5 to T=-25 and from T=30 to T=45. So, P_{-5}, the proc that occurs at T=-5, "owns" the uptime from T=-5 to T=0; the remainder of it's uptime is lost, because it has been overwritten at T=0 and hence that proc is over. P_0, the proc at T=0, similarly owns the 10 seconds of uptime from T=0 to T=10, before getting overwritten by P_10. P_10 then owns the uptime from T=10 to T=25, and P_25 owns the uptime from T=25 to T=40 (unless it gets overwritten by another proc itself, of course, but you get the idea). Hence, because were are defining the uptime of a proc to be "until it gets overwritten", the proc at T=0 by definition does not overlap any prior proc - because that proc is declared to end at T=0 when the proc we are investigating starts.

Note that this model, of course, has issues as well for Pf<1, because then p > 1 and clearly no proc can occur with probability more than one in any given second. So, if you want to be technical, it should really be 1-(1-min(1, 1/Pf))^Pd to fix that.

And of course, to be *totally* technical, one should not quantize to seconds, and instead define:

v = average numbers of hits per second
p = probability that a hit procs the effect
d = duration of the effect

and then set

Uptime = 1-(1-p)^vd (as opposed to the formula above, which is, effectively, 1-(1-pv)^d) which resolves this issue more elegantly; however, it can be easily shown for d of reasonable size (say, >= 10) these are very close to equivalent; for instance, in the case of mongoose with a 1.5 speed weapon, we have v = .667, d=.03, and v = 15; with the newest formula, this gives uptime of 26.26%, meaning that the value of this proc would be misestimated by less than one percent using either estimate in my previous post.
#1202SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Dontmindme
I think all we can do is agree to disagree. I don't see Pd/(Pf+0.5Pd) being a superior model as I'm pretty sure that the entire equation can be solved in a simple manner and the result is Pd/(Pf+Pd) which seems to work for all cases of duration and frequency. This formula does not breakdown as frequency goes to 0 and seems to be accurate in cases where frequency equals duration. Your equation seemingly has a flaw at some point, hence the issue with frequencies approaching 0.

I'm not sure where your formula is deviating. It might have something to do with the proc duration extending past your average proc time or the reduction of terms or the possibility of unlucky streaks of proc downtime which essentially extends the proc window and thus reduces the percent uptime. What I haven't seen is a refutation of the formula I derived other than the observation that it does not seem to agree with yours.

I believe I have approached the proc issue in a simple and direct manner and am looking for flaws in the logic of the derivation. I'm not trying to be critical nor argumentative. Just looking to see if there are any apparent oversights in the logic.
#1203SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Lonewolfen
Haste Rating and such

Is there a max haste rating? Is there a min attack speed? I heard that you can't get your weapon speed lower than 1 no matter what it says in your char screen. Please let me know and proof is nice if you have it.
#1204SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Aldriana
Well, okay, lets go over your derivation again. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to attack you here; it's just that your conclusion a) contradicts significant amounts of existing theorycraft, and b) goes against my intuition. I admit it's a bit harder to demonstrate where your model differs from reality, but, for instance: Lets say Pd = 5, and Pf = 1. That is, on average, it procs once per second, and the buff lasts for 5 seconds. Does it seem reasonable to you that such a buff is only up 83% of the time? I confess that it seems to me that it should be up significantly more than that. And, for instance, we note that your model clearly must be missing *something*, since in this example if the attacks are occuring, say, once per second, it is *impossible* for the buff to drop, as the only way to average one proc a second when you attack once a second is to proc on every single attack - so the probably the the buff manages to drop is, well zero. Now, if you're attacking twice a second, then it *can* drop, as it only needs to proc on 50% of attacks so it can drop. However, in order for a 5 second buff to go down it would need to fail to proc 10 attacks in a row - a 1 in a 1000 shot, which I don't see causing 17% downtime.

So, fundamentally: for Pf small but nonzero, your model seems to underestimate uptime; plus, the fact that it has no consideration of rate of attacks (which clearly does matter) indicates that it's somewhat lacking as well.

So, with that as a plausibility argument that there seems to be a flaw in the model - lets see if we can figure out what it might be. (Yes, the Pd/(Pf+.5Pd) model clearly has flaws as well; but it's clearly stated as an approximation for the case where Pf > Pd so it doesn't surprise me at all that it's wrong for Pf near 0. You'll note that the full model doesn't have this problem).

Now, the point of contention seems to be overlap, which I think we all have a fair idea what overlap is *supposed* to mean, but lets look for a minute at how it actually is modeling. It seems to be defined by the following equation from your post:

Up = Pd/Pf*(1-Ov)

So, overlap is the proportion of uptime that is lost to overlapping procs. Okay, sure.

Now, I think the place you get into trouble is with the assumption

Now, what should the % overlap be? Clearly, % Overlap should equal % Uptime.
Now, there's no real argument that %overlap is *related* to %uptime... but saying that they have to be equal doesn't strike me as clear at all. So lets examine this assumption in a little more detail.

Uptime is the precentage of the time that the buff is up; hence, if we have an event that happens at any point of time with equal probability, it clearly occurs during the time the buff is uptime percent of the time. So, if we were computing, for instance, what portion of sword spec procs occur during mongoose, the answer would just be uptime% of them. And, similarly, the number of mongoose *procs* that occur during exiting uptime period is clearly uptime% of them - but how much actual uptime loss is there (as that's what overlap measures)? Well, since the proc is equally likely to occur at any point during an existing uptime period, on average, only half of the uptime of that proc is wasted. Hence, uptime% of procs lose half their uptime; hence, overlap should only be uptime/2.

Fundamentally, the point here is that as a buff with *duration*, the intuition that uptime = overlap doesn't hold; if we were talking about, say, two different instant procs (SS and WF, say) occuring with probabilities p and q, the probably that both happen on one attack (that they "overlap") is the pq you'd expect. And the number of *procs* that occur during uptime also is what you expect. But the amount of proc uptime lost - which is what we defined overlap to be - has no reason to be the same, and, in fact, should be about half the uptime of the buff, not the full uptime. So I would argue that the equation we're leading to is uptime = Pd/Pf*(1-Uptime/2), which gives the Uptime = Pd/(Pf+0.5/Pd) result that I asserted previously.

Now, as you have pointed out, this approximation clearly has some problems; it doesn't behave correctly in the limit, and I freely admit it's an approximation. So where did we go wrong?

Well, overlap is the loss of uptime to overlapping procs, and we made the assumption that we lose half the uptime of a proc that occurs during an existing uptime period. Well, this isn't actually quite true. It's true that a proc can occur at any point in time during an existing proc with equal probability... but it's *not* true that it's necessarily the *first* proc. And if there has already been a proc during the current uptime period, the current uptime period is no longer 15 seconds long, so the amount of uptime lost is, on average, longer.

Hence, what we're looking for is the average time of the *first* proc during an uptime period, which is *not* uniformly distributed in the proc uptime; the probability it occurs at a given time is the probability that it occurs at that time... times the probability that it hasn't happened previously. Hence, the *first* proc is more likely to occur in the beginning portion of the uptime of an existing buff than it is towards the end - the probability isn't uniform, so the loss of uptime is not necessarily half, on average. Hence, one must inspect *this* probability distribution, which gets into things like attack frequency and the like, and the more sophisticated derivation I proposed earlier.

On an unrelated note:

Originally Posted by Lonewolfen View Post
Is there a max haste rating? Is there a min attack speed? I heard that you can't get your weapon speed lower than 1 no matter what it says in your char screen. Please let me know and proof is nice if you have it.
There may be a minimum, but it's certainly not 1; I know for a fact I've had my OH hitting around .7 (as confirmed by viewing combat logs, not trusting the character screen) and I've had the character sheet report it as low as .17. So if the character screen is wrong, I can't swear there's no minimum, but I can confirm it's not 1 second. And if the character screen is right... if there's a minimum, it's totally irrelevant is it's only achievable with 2 Unholy Frenzies from Hyjal + Bloodlust/Herosim + SnD + Blade Flurry + Haste Pots + Drums + Dragonspine proc... or something similar.
#1205SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Hanos
Originally Posted by Pale View Post
Thanks Hanos and Hannigaholic. I can't check it now, but this must be the case.

@hanos: I'll still gem the same. The difference from the +8hit gems is so minimal (and only while fully raidbuffed) that it's not worth the loss in survivability imo. And that's all that it is, my opinion
That would be your opinion, and most of us would disagree with it for several reasons. First off you can't proc combat potency on a miss, considering there is no cooldown on Combat Potency, the more you hit the more procs you get, second, things like Mongoose, Executioner, Dragonspine, and Madness all Proc on hit, they can't proc if you miss, more hits leads to more procs (even if you aren't combat spec'ed).

Now looking at your gear, you could easily add 40 hit rating to your gear, and swap to 0/20/41 instead of 20/0/41 and significantly increase you damage. However, I find the people who try to justify spec'ing shadowstep for raiding and try to justify agility over dodge due to increased survivability tend to be a lost cause, because they don't understand that there are about 3-4 fights in the game where you need to dodge, and the additional 1% or so dodge you are getting from that additional 40 Agility instead of 40 Hit, isn't going to save you when you screw up and pull aggro.

This is the same argument that people were using to try use to justify spec'ing shadowstep for raiding (which coincidently you have done), because while it did less damage you could survive screwing up. As a rogue your job, and your only job, is to do as much DPS as possible based on your gear and the fight, anything that prevents that is a failure in your role as a rogue, there is nothing random that will kill you that could not be prevented by playing better, so there is no real justification for ever spec'ing anything other then Combat as a raiding rogue as long as you are trying to progress.


The real difference between hit and Agi is that hit is going to give you more DPS and it is going to be more consistent, with more consistent cycles thanks to more CP Procs and more hit based procs. Dodge is nice when it works, but it isn't something you ever want to rely on, if you pull aggro, you have already screwed up, if you plan on not screwing up, then you don't need to spec to survive the screw up.
#1206SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Hanos
Originally Posted by Lonewolfen View Post
Is there a max haste rating? Is there a min attack speed? I heard that you can't get your weapon speed lower than 1 no matter what it says in your char screen. Please let me know and proof is nice if you have it.
There is no maximum haste rating that you every have to worry about hitting, while there might be a theoretical cap at 100%, that would be 1580 haste rating, which really isn't obtainable.

As far as weapon speed below 1 that is one of those stupid myths that I am pretty sure is covered multiple places on this forum. Think about it, Blizzard put 1.3 and 1.4 speed weapons in game, Slice and Dice causes you to hit 30% faster, Heroism causes you to hit 30% faster, 2 Piece T6 causes you to hit 5% faster, Dragonspine, Abacus, BS Maces, and Haste Pots all cause you to hit faster.

While I could provide combat logs to show this, I am at work currently, and don't have access to my logs, but you can test it by taking you 1.4 speed offhand, and attacking mob, hitting S&D, then popping a haste pot or getting a shaman to pop heroism or popping Abacus. Look at the combat log, you will see off hand hits less then 1 second apart.

In the future, try searching before posting.
#1207SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Ozzmar
Originally Posted by Pale
@hanos: I'll still gem the same. The difference from the +8hit gems is so minimal (and only while fully raidbuffed) that it's not worth the loss in survivability imo. And that's all that it is, my opinion
And not to pour salt on a wound, but why on earth would you even consider using Agility to boost your dodge rating when you have Cheat Death? A talent that basically gives the click-happy and mentally-slow an extremely large window to Vanish if need be...
#1208SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Dev93L
I want to thank everyone immensely who has contributed to this thread.

As I posted in the DPS spreadsheet thread, I am very new to theorycrafting on this level, and have solo-researched for a week or two before replying, since that is what I EJ likes to inspire before coming here for questions.

If I may, I have a question or two I have not found the answers to doing searches:

Could someone politely tell me if I have the jist of Amor Penetration gear? ArP value increases the more you have of it, but Vulajin has said there's nothing special about ArP in terms of it's EP weight, so you just sub in items with this value as they come if they are better pieces.

[Bladeangel's Money Belt] is the first item I have encountered with this stat, and will be replacing [Girdle of Treachery]. The rest of my gear is similar: badge and Kara gear. I'm aware the more on hit procs you have, the higher +hit's value rises, and I have double mongoose and Hourglass. Both sheets show an increase in dps for me, but I am not sure if the sheets weigh +hit higher for me since I have those procs or not.
#1209SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Shaker
Originally Posted by Hanos View Post
The real difference between hit and Agi is that hit is going to give you more DPS and it is going to be more consistent, with more consistent cycles thanks to more CP Procs and more hit based procs. Dodge is nice when it works, but it isn't something you ever want to rely on, if you pull aggro, you have already screwed up, if you plan on not screwing up, then you don't need to spec to survive the screw up.
While I very much respect Hanos' opinion (and despite his tone tarnishing his message sometimes, he really does have the experience and results to back it up), I do want to state that hit/agi gems are definitely very usable for all red/yellow slots, as it somewhat balances the fine balance between Agi being your top stat (slightly) in interrupted fights and hit being your top stat (slightly) in stationary fights.

That being said, in a lot of cases, especially at the T6 level, Lionseyes will be easy to get, Pyrestones perhaps somewhat less easy, and Spinels should be damn near impossible (if your raid leader is even remotely sensible in this regard), so sometimes scarcity of gems can play an issue in this as well.
#1210SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Ozzmar
Originally Posted by Dev93L View Post
[Bladeangel's Money Belt] is the first item I have encountered with this stat, and will be replacing [Girdle of Treachery]. The rest of my gear is similar: badge and Kara gear. I'm aware the more on hit procs you have, the higher +hit's value rises, and I have double mongoose and Hourglass. Both sheets show an increase in dps for me, but I am not sure if the sheets weigh +hit higher for me since I have those procs or not.
The spreadsheet gurus seem to be in a bit of a mathematical tussle at the moment, so I'll give you a simple answer:

Try removing the Mongoose enchants from your weapons, then recalculate your AEP on the talents page. That should give you the answer you're looking for.
#1211SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Rei86
I didn’t want to make a thread seeing how I’m a noob on the forums. I’ve been lurking the forums for about six months now and reading up here and there but I’ve never fully gotten passed page thirteen of this thread I must confuse. So excuse me if this question has been asked but how does expertise affect you in raids?

I have gotten the Shoulderpads of the Stranger when I started raiding with my new guild. Now looking at things like shadowpanter.net they have it actually rated higher then that of the Deathmantle Shoulderpads.

Well I had just gotten my Tier 5 shoulders and feels like I had just wasted DKP on a item that I didn’t really need

How is it that Shoulderpads of the Stranger > then Deathmantle Shoulderpads?

FYI my rogue with Shoulderpads has 311hit, 174X AP, 25ish Crit and 12 expertises. If I use the Deathmantale Shoulderpads I have 32Xhit, 173XAP, 24ish crit and 10 expertise rating.

I mean shouldn’t your attacks not be dodged/parried if you’re behind your target in raids? Since the tank should have agro and faced away from the raid at all times
So confused and a little help/insight to this subject would be great.
#1212SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3saedo
Originally Posted by Rei86 View Post
I mean shouldn’t your attacks not be dodged/parried if you’re behind your target in raids? Since the tank should have agro and faced away from the raid at all times
So confused and a little help/insight to this subject would be great.
You can't be blocked or parried from behind the mob. But dodges still happen. So that expertise, in the end, works like giving you more hit. 3.94 Expertise Rating = 1 Expertise = 0.25% less dodge/parry. So assuming there's no other expertise rating pieces on you, you get an effective 2 expertise out of those shoulders (2.54 to be exact but it's floored down). So that's another 0.5% less dodge. Equivalent to 0.5% more hit (~7.9 hit ratings worth of it).

Piece for piece I think Stranger is better. But if you get 4pc T5 you can swap in those for the bonus.
#1213SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Shaker
Use SotS until you get 3 other pieces of T5, then strap on the T5 shoulders to meet the 4pc bonus, and swap them back out when you break the 4pc bonus to hit 2pc T6.

Mobs (not players) can dodge from behind, so expertise has value approximately equal to +hit (that is, 1% less dodge is roughly equal to 1% more hit). The ratings value differently, but the spreadsheets calculate that out for you. :P (or saedo can!)

Also, just as a note, I have an itemrack/closetgnome setup for when I am soloing with my rogue, which includes a few different pieces - in a gear setup like that, Expertise is twice as valuable, since it now reduces parries as well.
#1214SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Hanos
Originally Posted by Shaker View Post
While I very much respect Hanos' opinion (and despite his tone tarnishing his message sometimes, he really does have the experience and results to back it up), I do want to state that hit/agi gems are definitely very usable for all red/yellow slots, as it somewhat balances the fine balance between Agi being your top stat (slightly) in interrupted fights and hit being your top stat (slightly) in stationary fights.

That being said, in a lot of cases, especially at the T6 level, Lionseyes will be easy to get, Pyrestones perhaps somewhat less easy, and Spinels should be damn near impossible (if your raid leader is even remotely sensible in this regard), so sometimes scarcity of gems can play an issue in this as well.
Glinting Pyrestone/Noble Topaz is an excellent gem, and I have personally used them extensively and still have more in my gear then the spreadsheets recommend, and they are a nice balance between fully buffed and unbuffed as well as keeping you from wasting itemization points when not fighting a boss. I was giving him a hard time for arguing for pure Agi gems and favoring them for the added dodge. If you use all Agi gems, you will gain 1-2% more dodge, which means instead of getting splatted on the first swing, you get spatted on the second (1 time in 50 when you pull aggro on a boss... and if a guild keeps you around long enough to pull aggro on a boss 50 times, min-maxing isn't your biggest concern).. There are even some specs and gear levels where Agi is better. The idea wasn't completely wrong, just the reasoning.

Originally Posted by Dev93L View Post
[Bladeangel's Money Belt] is the first item I have encountered with this stat, and will be replacing [Girdle of Treachery]. The rest of my gear is similar: badge and Kara gear. I'm aware the more on hit procs you have, the higher +hit's value rises, and I have double mongoose and Hourglass. Both sheets show an increase in dps for me, but I am not sure if the sheets weigh +hit higher for me since I have those procs or not.
Spreadsheets are a tool, but you need to understand the ideas. Let's look at the 2 belts:

Both have 58 AP, so that is a wash
BA has 25 Agi while GoT has 18, so BA is at +7 Agi
BA has 21 Crit while GoT has 0, so BA is at +21 Crit
BA has 77 Armor Penetration, GoT has 0, so BA is at +77 -Armor

BA has 1 Socket, GoT has 2

Assuming you use Glinting Noble Topaz, you get 4 Hit and 4 Agi on BA and 8 Hit and 11 Agi on GoT
Which is +7 Agi +4 Hit for GoT

What this means is if you ignore Stamina, the difference between the two is +21 Crit Rating and -77 Armor vs 4 Hit Rating.

Bladeangle's Money Belt is always going to be better.
#1215SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Dev93L
Originally Posted by Hanos View Post
Glinting Pyrestone/Noble Topaz is an excellent gem, and I have personally used them extensively and still have more in my gear then the spreadsheets recommend, and they are a nice balance between fully buffed and unbuffed as well as keeping you from wasting itemization points when not fighting a boss. I was giving him a hard time for arguing for pure Agi gems and favoring them for the added dodge. If you use all Agi gems, you will gain 1-2% more dodge, which means instead of getting splatted on the first swing, you get spatted on the second (1 time in 50 when you pull aggro on a boss... and if a guild keeps you around long enough to pull aggro on a boss 50 times, min-maxing isn't your biggest concern).. There are even some specs and gear levels where Agi is better. The idea wasn't completely wrong, just the reasoning.



Spreadsheets are a tool, but you need to understand the ideas. Let's look at the 2 belts:

Both have 58 AP, so that is a wash
BA has 25 Agi while GoT has 18, so BA is at +7 Agi
BA has 21 Crit while GoT has 0, so BA is at +21 Crit
BA has 77 Armor Penetration, GoT has 0, so BA is at +77 -Armor

BA has 1 Socket, GoT has 2

Assuming you use Glinting Noble Topaz, you get 4 Hit and 4 Agi on BA and 8 Hit and 11 Agi on GoT
Which is +7 Agi +4 Hit for GoT

What this means is if you ignore Stamina, the difference between the two is +21 Crit Rating and -77 Armor vs 4 Hit Rating.

Bladeangle's Money Belt is always going to be better.
Thank you very much for that assessment. What I meant to consider was the global argument of armor penetration vs. hit at my gear level and I used a terrible example. But I understand the concepts a little more.
#1216SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Dev93L
Originally Posted by Ozzmar View Post
The spreadsheet gurus seem to be in a bit of a mathematical tussle at the moment, so I'll give you a simple answer:

Try removing the Mongoose enchants from your weapons, then recalculate your AEP on the talents page. That should give you the answer you're looking for.
I'd love to do this but the sheet sort of goes bonkers on me when I push that button. Thanks for the recommendation though.
#1217SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Dontmindme
To make a long story short. I found the basic issue with that formula. That formula is true for the case of all real numbers where procs can occur at any time but the integral nature of the problem causes increasing inaccuracy where time between attacks approaches the proc duration.

Now, that said, I see one issue with the current implementation of your formula which is skewing it high. You are using hit frequency where one needs attack frequency (or in other words integral time between attacks - probably estimated as an average to simplify the equation which is true for basic offhand attacks by not so true for main hand). The difference between hit frequency and attack frequency needs to be factored into the proc rate as opposed to extending the attack frequency which you currently are doing. The equation you have proposed is only accurate when the hit rate equals the attack rate or in other words, one never misses.

So, using your example above but change d=4 (for simpler math) p=1 with 1 hit per sec and 1 sec per hit making v=1 .
Uptime = 1-(1-p)^vd correctly gives 1-(1-1)^4*1=1

But the problem is with the average hit rate. Let's say somehow one misses/is dodged 50% of the time. Now, you get the same formula when you have 2 attacks per second missing 50% of the time. Your average hit is still 1 per second which using the above formula still gives d=4 p=1 v=1
Uptime = 1-(1-p)^vd correctly gives 1-(1-1)^4*1=1

But if you propagate the hit rate to the proc rate you instead have the much more accurate d=4 p=1*0.5=0.5 v=2
Uptime = 1-(1-0.5)^4*2=1-(0.5)^8=1-0.015625=0.984365 for a 98.4% uptime demonstrating that there is a chance to miss.

I think I've found my issue with your formula. If one uses raw # of attacks with attacks per time propagating the miss rate into the proc rate, then I agree with your formulation. (I just derived the same thing a different way.)

There still is the issue regarding attack frequency not truly hitting the marks (instant attacks, sword spec procs skew this) , but it should be close enough and should certainly be accurate for offhand attacks (neglecting Shiv, etc)

Last edited by Dontmindme : 01/29/08 at 5:59 PM. Reason: Oops, mistake
#1218SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Vulajin
I'm currently working on redoing parts of the Gear Selection section. Specifically, I'd like to reduce the number of builds for which EP weights are listed. By doing so, I can instead expand the chart to show EP values for different gear levels (I plan to have a set of values for tier 4, tier 5, and tier 6 each) so that it's clear how some stats vary in value as gear improves.

Which builds should I be considering "representative" for the raiding rogue population? Obviously swords should be there, and probably at least one Hemo variant, but beyond that I can't decide.
#1219SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
 Shaker
I hear 11/9/41 is a good raiding build.

In all seriousness:

Combat Swords 17/41/0 +3
Combat Sword/Fist (if appreciably different, which I doubt)
Mutilate - if we have that info available
Combat Hemo 11/27/21 +1

I think realistically at this time we're really pigeonholed into either Deep combat or Combat Hemo.




(Edit2): Oh yeah, daggers. Uhm, sorry about that. I will just amend this to say I agree with Aldriana, I didn't really realize that the tri-spec hemo would be that different from 11/27/21 +1.

Last edited by Shaker : 01/29/08 at 6:25 PM. Reason: Trying to get out of the fire
#1220SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Ozzmar
For better or worse, Mutilate is still pretty popular.

(10 points to Shaker)
#1221SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Aldriana
I'd say the top 6 builds these days are probably something like:

Combat Swords (16/41 + 4)
Combat Hybrid (16/45 Fist/Sword or Mace/Sword)
TSH-Swords (11/28/22 or thereabouts)
TSH-Other (11/21/29)
Combat Daggers (15/41/5)
Mutilate (41/20/0)

There are certainly some other builds that get used (11/9/41, 43/0/18, 30/28/3, etc.) but they're defenitely rarer and pretty clearly inferior, so I'd leave them out for now.

In terms of pruning that list of 6 further: I'd expect Combat Swords and Combat Hybrid to be pretty similar, so you likely don't need both; I'd probably include both TSH options as they will likely have fairly different stat weightings; and Combat Daggers should probably stay as well, as, for better or worse, there's a lot of dagger rogues out there. As for Mutilate... while it is a decent build and it is fairly common, I don't have a lot of confidence that we know the stat weightings for it with the same accuracy, so I'm somewhat inclined to leave it off for now.
#1222SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Aldriana
Originally Posted by Dontmindme View Post
To make a long story short. I found the basic issue with that formula. That formula is true for the case of all real numbers where procs can occur at any time but the integral nature of the problem causes increasing inaccuracy where time between attacks approaches the proc duration.

Now, that said, I see one issue with the current implementation of your formula which is skewing it high. You are using hit frequency where one needs attack frequency (or in other words integral time between attacks - probably estimated as an average to simplify the equation which is true for basic offhand attacks by not so true for main hand). The difference between hit frequency and attack frequency needs to be factored into the proc rate as opposed to extending the attack frequency which you currently are doing. The equation you have proposed is only accurate when the hit rate equals the attack rate or in other words, one never misses.

So, using your example above but change d=4 (for simpler math) p=1 with 1 hit per sec and 1 sec per hit making v=1 .
Uptime = 1-(1-p)^vd correctly gives 1-(1-1)^4*1=1

But the problem is with the average hit rate. Let's say somehow one misses/is dodged 50% of the time. Now, you get the same formula when you have 2 attacks per second missing 50% of the time. Your average hit is still 1 per second which using the above formula still gives d=4 p=1 v=1
Uptime = 1-(1-p)^vd correctly gives 1-(1-1)^4*1=1

But if you propagate the hit rate to the proc rate you instead have the much more accurate d=4 p=1*0.5=0.5 v=2
Uptime = 1-(1-0.5)^4*2=1-(0.5)^8=1-0.015625=0.984365 for a 98.4% uptime demonstrating that there is a chance to miss.

I think I've found my issue with your formula. If one uses raw # of attacks with attacks per time propagating the miss rate into the proc rate, then I agree with your formulation. (I just derived the same thing a different way.)

There still is the issue regarding attack frequency not truly hitting the marks (instant attacks, sword spec procs skew this) , but it should be close enough and should certainly be accurate for offhand attacks (neglecting Shiv, etc)
Right... upon contemplation, that's probably the better way of formulating it. So instead of the above definitions, we define

v = average numbers of attacks per second
p = probability that an attack procs the effect
d = duration of the effect

Note that the probability of an attack proccing equals the probability that an attack hits time the probability that the hit procs the effect, which is what you were saying, and at this point the formula

Up = 1-(1-p)^vd

should be correct.

However, in the name of scientific curiosity: I decided to test this. I wrote a simple program to simulate indefenite autoattacking with a single weapon, no procs that effect attack rate, etc., with the above parameters tunable.

Data set 1:
v = 1.0
p = .02 (1 proc per 50 seconds, all attacks hitting)
d = 15

Predicted: 1-(1-.02)^15 = .2614
Trial 1: .2609
Trial 2: .2618
Trial 3: .2620

Data set 2:
v = 1.0
p = .018 (1 proc per 50 seconds, 90% hit rate)
d = 15

Note that this is a reasonable model of OH Mongoose for most rogues.

Predicted: 1-(1-.018)^15 = .2385
Trial 1: .2386
Trial 2: .2384
Trial 3: .2396

Data set 3:
v = 2.0
p = .009 (1 proc per 50 seconds, 90% hit rate)
d = 15

Predicted: 1-(1-.009)^30 = .2376
Trial 1: .2385
Trial 2: .2379
Trial 3: .2362

And, just to try something well outside the normal range, lets see what happens if we're attacking 10 times a second with a buff that procs 10% of the time and lasts for 5 seconds:

Data set 4:
v = 10.0
p = .1
d = 5

Predicted: 1-(1-.1)^50 = .9948
Trial 1: .9949
Trial 2: .9946
Trial 3: .9947

So, off the top of my head: this formula seems to match pretty well with theory under the assumption that attacks are more or less evenly spaced. Next step: check how well it works in a MH situation, where the attacks do not come at a uniform rate but can cluster and burst and whatever due to Sword Spec, Windfury, yellow attacks, etc. I suspect it'll run pretty close, though there will likely be at least some deviation.
#1223SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
glowacks
The maths on Mongoose uptime probably belong in Roguecraft 201, not 101 :P

If you're planning on adding in MH, and determing the uptime when you have both weapons, you really don't need to do much more work as long as you continue to think in the same way. While the probability distributions for Sword Spec and Windfury are going to be heavily related to when the auto-attacks with each weapon, you can't make any determination where the Instants are going to fall in there. All you know is that they're going to come at most once a second and be on average every ~4 seconds for SS (the dps spreadsheet does calculate this exact value). That average value is all we need to work with though.

We get the probability that mongoose is up at any time as 1 - P(MH auto attack did not proc in last 15 seconds) * P(offhand did not) * P(Windfury did not) * P(Sword Spec did not) * P(instants did not). Each of these can be calculated just as Aldriana mentioned, without needing to worry about exactly how the attacks fell the last 15 seconds. Just knowing how many on average have occurred is exactly what we care about, as long as the chance of each hitting is constant.

We're still led to the circular problem of the cycle determining the attacks per time period and thus the proc uptime, but the proc uptime (since it gives haste) might have an effect the best cycle. That's one problem that I have absolutely no idea how to solve other than just saying it's close enough and you should always be modifying your cycles due to your luck in the recent past.

edit: I went back to the post on DP and somehow I completely missed Left's post the first time - presumably because I was typing up my own ramblings on Markov chains. While it was basically a perfect analysis if all that mattered is average stack uptime (it isn't, but it's probably close enough), I'm still going to maintain that you're overestimating the uptime of DP because from my experience it always drops off after the 4th tick without being refreshed - even if that was only 9.1 seconds ago. 10.5 is a much better estimate than 12 of time required since last refrech for the stack to drop, given that the refresh time is uniformly distributed with respect to time since last tick, which is always 3n seconds after the first application, for some n.

It's possible that I'm wrong with respect to how this works and I was just hallucinating or dreaming about when I saw a stack dissapear right as it ticked that clearly had more than a second left and a 1-stack appear immediately afterwards. I don't say that completely facetiously either - I've had plenty of dreams where strange things happen in WoW.

Last edited by glowacks : 01/29/08 at 8:47 PM.
#1224SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Shaker
Originally Posted by glowacks View Post
The maths on Mongoose uptime probably belong in Roguecraft 201, not 101 :P
That's funny, I was going to remark that I was happy to see some interesting posts in this thread instead of all the 'rate my gear' crap >_>
#1225SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3glowacks
Originally Posted by Shaker View Post
That's funny, I was going to remark that I was happy to see some interesting posts in this thread instead of all the 'rate my gear' crap >_>
While I agree with you there, some of the mathematics is beyond what most of the people I play WoW with would understand. While it's fairly simple probability theory to me, "simple" is a relative word when you're a graduate mathematics student taking classes in 2 different areas of statistics and probability this term. I tend to gloss over some of it myself because thinking is harder than skimming.
#1226SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Aldriana
Originally Posted by glowacks View Post
The maths on Mongoose uptime probably belong in Roguecraft 201, not 101 :P
Oh, I'm sure we could get some upper-division Roguecraft threads going; the issue with such is that this sort of analysis isn't being done continuously. We go a few weeks without doing much at all, and then an interesting/hard problems come along so we have to break out the big guns. Hence, this sort of analysis tends to crop up every so often in all the various rogue threads, depending on where the question arose. But, if people feel a need for a thread devoted specifically to heavy-duty modeling of rogue mechanics, I'm up to the challenge .

If you're planning on adding in MH, and determing the uptime when you have both weapons, you really don't need to do much more work as long as you continue to think in the same way. While the probability distributions for Sword Spec and Windfury are going to be heavily related to when the auto-attacks with each weapon, you can't make any determination where the Instants are going to fall in there. All you know is that they're going to come at most once a second and be on average every ~4 seconds for SS (the dps spreadsheet does calculate this exact value). That average value is all we need to work with though.

We get the probability that mongoose is up at any time as 1 - P(MH auto attack did not proc in last 15 seconds) * P(offhand did not) * P(Windfury did not) * P(Sword Spec did not) * P(instants did not). Each of these can be calculated just as Aldriana mentioned, without needing to worry about exactly how the attacks fell the last 15 seconds. Just knowing how many on average have occurred is exactly what we care about, as long as the chance of each hitting is constant.

We're still led to the circular problem of the cycle determining the attacks per time period and thus the proc uptime, but the proc uptime (since it gives haste) can effect the best cycle. That's one problem that I have absolutely no idea how to solve other than just saying it's close enough and you should always be modifying your cycles due to your luck in the recent past.
Well, right; I mean, the attacks will on average be more or less randomly distributed across time - but 'randomly distributed" is sort of a different ballgame then "periodically every t seconds". Now, I fully expect the answers to be highly similar, and, frankly, I've been using this exact model in the gear sheet for a year (as in, dating back to before I made the sheet publicly available, back when I was just using it for my own purposes) without a second thought for it's accuracy. If the MH case is different by more than a percent or two, I'll be surprised.

On the other hand, I've been surprised before, so it probably *is* worth doing a quick simulation as a sanity check; alas, that simulation is significantly harder to write.

Regarding the cycles effecting uptime effecting cycles issue: yes, this circular reference is the essential problem of rogue modeling. It's, in fact, the reason I gave up on the Rogue DPS sheet and released the Rogue Gear sheet, since, at the time, it was not being handled well at all in the DPS sheet. The Gear sheet resolves this by iterating cycle computation a couple of times until the answer converges on a particular cycle, and uses that. This process, in fact, comprises a good solid third of the computations in the Gear sheet. A direct analytic answer would of course be better, but iterating to convergeance works pretty well and is a heck of a lot easier. I'm not sure how the DPS sheet handles it these days.

Note, however, that haste in particular tends not to be a major issue for cycle determination, given that it proportionally reduces the proc rate on PPM effects so procs per unit time are largely unchanged; the only feedback mechanism that allows haste effects to change the cycle is Combat Potency. So it's perhaps not as much of an issue as one might expect, but it does still require some careful handling.
#1227SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Dontmindme
I agree that the MH hits should do little to skew the data. One can say that MH specials are "randomly" distributed but they are far less random than purely random given one usually has to wait for the energy to use them. The gaps between them may change in size, but they are still likely at least fairly evenly distributed throughout the timeline.

I'm a little more worried about the effect of Sword Spec procs / proccing Windfury / proccing Sword Spec again, but I'm not sure there is a really good way to avoid this or easily calculate this. I still don't believe this will throw the computations off all that much although maybe worth testing these spikes. OHs should work very well given a 100% SnD time only differing for iteration when Haste procs or on use Haste items kick in.

In terms of procs affecting cycles, my planned way to implement this on the DPS spreadsheet is to estimate the uptimes so the cycles have something to go by. Then come to an exact computation which will add or subtract dps based on the difference from the estimates. Following that, I plan to add a Macro that essentially will switch the computed uptimes in as the estimates (essentially iterating by Macro). There are too many items that are just calculated after the fact or which have estimated uptimes that could be made more accurate. The short answer ito how its currently modeled in the DPS sheet is that the estimated uptimes are probably working pretty decently in terms of cycle effects, but are not as accurate in terms of item value. Whereas the items that are formulated after the fact are probably pretty reasonably estimated in terms of item value but are not feedbacking into the cycles. As you might notice, I'm putting a sharper eye on accuracy of the proc mechanics. Once I implement more accurate formulas, item-by-item I can follow through on the above-mention plan of action.

Now, talking Deadly Poison. One can essentially determine the uptime by the previously mentioned formulas which also equates downtime. Which tells you that x % of the time you have 0 stacks up and 1-x % of the time you have 1-5 stacks up. If we subtract off the 0 stack subset and only look at the 1-5 stacks, wouldn't the % downtime equate to the same % downtime at 0 stacks?

I think it does, as the % time stuck at 0 stacks vs the rest of stacks seems like it should equate to the same percent of time stuck at 1 stack vs 2 or more as the chance to elevate to a higher stack should be the same as elevating from 0 stacks. If one continues that up the line you get...

0 stacks = %downtime determination -> D0 which is also the probability at 0 stacks
So wouldn't it follow that probability at the other stacks would be...
1 stacks = (1-D0)*(D0) -> D1
2 stacks = (1-D0-D1)*(D0) -> D2
3 stacks = (1-D0-D1-D2)*(D0) -> D3
4 stacks = (1-D0-D1-D2-D3)*(D0) -> D4
5 or more stacks = (1-D0-D1-D2-D3-D4)

Is there some flaw with this logic? If not, this seems maybe a more accurate way of determining uptime at different levels. Granted, it doesn't account for the damage being determined every 3 seconds from the start, but it may make sense that the percent time spent at a given stack size might be equivalent to the number of damage procs at a given stack level. Thoughts?

Last edited by Dontmindme : 01/30/08 at 12:53 AM. Reason: More precise answer to how the DPS sheet handles the cycle issue
#1228SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Aldriana
So, I agree that the distribution of attacks isn't totally random - however, it's certainly very complicated, and "random" is probably a better approximation than "periodic" given that you have:

1) Autoattacks, which are periodic;
2) Yellow attacks - both your CPGs (Combo Point Generators) and finishers, which are... roughly periodic, but not precisely due to energy queueing, frequency of Combat Potency procs, etc.
3) Two forms of procs, which occur on a random selection of those attacks, and occur up to 1 second after the initial attack, some of which are generated by OH attacks which are on yet a third periodicity.

Now, even neglecting the fact that 2 isn't totally periodic, we have two periodic effects (with different periods), with two interwoven more-or-less random ones (they're not randomly distributed across all time, but I suspect if I gave you a list of times at which SS procced for me in a given fight and a list of random numbers, you'd be hard pressed to tell which is which.

So, it's not totally random - there *is* quite a bit of structure - but it's complicated enough structure that it's probably just better to think of them as random. However, I still don't think the answer will be very different from the periodic case - within a couple percent, to be sure.

Regarding the Deadly Poison estimate: I think the difference between the frequency of having no poison up and the frequency of having some other number of stacks up is not the same, as the transition table is different, as it's not possible for the number of stacks to drop from, say, 2 to 1 or 5 to 3. If poison stacks dropped off one at a time, something like that would be possible; since they all drop at once, I don't think it quite works (although I'm having a hard time explaining why).

That said: I did just have an idea how to improve this model to more accurately reflect the real-world case, but it's getting rather late so I don't have the brainpower to push it through to a solution. I'll try to do that tomorrow when I'm more awake.
#1229SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Pale
Originally Posted by Hanos View Post
Now looking at your gear, you could easily add 40 hit rating to your gear, and swap to 0/20/41 instead of 20/0/41 and significantly increase you damage.
20/0/41 beats 0/20/41 by about 2%. 11/9/41 does about 1% more dmg than 20/0/41.

Originally Posted by Hanos View Post
This is the same argument that people were using to try use to justify spec'ing shadowstep for raiding (which coincidently you have done)
Sorry if it looked as I tried to do that. I merely wanted to know why the spreadsheet gave almost equal damage for combat/swords and assassination/shadowstep. I know combat/swords is still the cookie cutter build for raiding.

Originally Posted by Ozzmar View Post
And not to pour salt on a wound, but why on earth would you even consider using Agility to boost your dodge rating when you have Cheat Death? A talent that basically gives the click-happy and mentally-slow an extremely large window to Vanish if need be...
Ghostly Strike, Evasion, and I can live for 15 more seconds, giving the raid time to recover from whatever mistake it was we made. I believe in survivability, dead rogues deal no damage. You believe in doing 0,4% more dmg, fair enough

Originally Posted by Hanos View Post
Glinting Pyrestone/Noble Topaz is an excellent gem, and I have personally used them extensively and still have more in my gear then the spreadsheets recommend, and they are a nice balance between fully buffed and unbuffed as well as keeping you from wasting itemization points when not fighting a boss. I was giving him a hard time for arguing for pure Agi gems and favoring them for the added dodge. If you use all Agi gems, you will gain 1-2% more dodge, which means instead of getting splatted on the first swing, you get spatted on the second (1 time in 50 when you pull aggro on a boss... and if a guild keeps you around long enough to pull aggro on a boss 50 times, min-maxing isn't your biggest concern).. There are even some specs and gear levels where Agi is better. The idea wasn't completely wrong, just the reasoning.
The difference is minimal in damage output and as you said, depends on build. Putting my gear (with a S2 OH) through the spreadsheet gives the following results:

20/0/41 agi gems
730,98 (baseline)
1297,51 (baseline)

20/41/0 agi gems
736,77 (0,79%)
1311,98 (1,10%)

20/0/41 hit gems
729,06 (-0,26%)
1295,36 (-0,17%)

20/41/0 hit gems
736,33 (0,73%)
1313,18 (1,19%)

Replacing a 8agi with a 8hit results in -0,4% dodge, and buffed 0,04% dps increase, but only when fully raidbuffed.

As for my original question "why does the spreadsheet show such a minimal difference between combat/swords and some shadowstep build?", Dontmindme gave the answer:
Originally Posted by Dontmindme View Post
A couple things...
The spreadsheet has not double-dipped on Hemo DPS in a number of versions (fixed in 2.3.2.5). If Hemo Debuff Estimate is enabled, the Hemo debuff in the buffs section does nothing anymore, so having both on is ok. You can check this by selecting a Hemo build with Hemo Debuff Estimate on. Add Hemo debuff under Buffs and you will see the DPS doesn't change anymore.

The Hemo debuff amounts to a sizable amount of damage now that its up to 42 per tick or 420 per Hemo application which can be multiplied on Crits and other skill/talents/buffs which give damage multipliers while, of course, being mitigated by Armor reduction. It's not too unreasonable to estimate that the raid could be gaining about 120 dps for the debuff alone over ones own personal damage. Of course what that means for the WWS parse if the spreadsheet is showing a 30 DPS benefit is that one's personal damage is now somewhere about 90 DPS behind Combat Swords.

So just as DPS Warriors sometimes wear Solarian's Sapphire to boost raid dps (at the sacrifice of personal DPS), some rogues will be Hemo to boost raid DPS. I personally see little wrong with that. I should add that at the point where you are only about 30 DPS with the debuff ahead of Combat Swords, a 2nd Hemo rogue will probably negate just about all of the advantage in occasional debuff overlap. But if you are the only Hemo Rogue, I'd guess it's still a raid advantage.
So what the sheet does is allow you to eat all your own hemo charges, which in most raids won't happen.

So as I see it, there's nothing wrong with one shadowstep rogue in the raid. Your overall damage contribution to the raid won't differ much (-1,19% with my gear and some gem corrections) and it's a nice change of play. However, if you care a lot about being high on Recount/DM/etc.. go combat/swords.
#1230SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3koaschten
Originally Posted by Pale View Post
Ghostly Strike, Evasion, and I can live for 15 more seconds, giving the raid time to recover from whatever mistake it was I made. I believe in survivability, dead rogues deal no damage. You believe in doing 0,4% more dmg, fair enough
Corrected that sentence there for you. You only end up tanking when pulling aggro, 15 seconds won't change a thing. The only time it's not your fault is when the tank dies... and then it's over anyway.
#1231SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 songster
Originally Posted by Pale View Post
So as I see it, there's nothing wrong with one shadowstep rogue in the raid. Your overall damage contribution to the raid won't differ much (-1,19% with my gear and some gem corrections) and it's a nice change of play. However, if you care a lot about being high on Recount/DM/etc.. go combat/swords.
True, at low gear levels, ShStep can end up only a little behind combat swords. However, at that gear level, tri-spec Hemo is well ahead of both, so that would be your preferred option. Since the damage added by the Hemo debuff is static and does not scale with gear, Shadowstep will only drop further and further behind. At around T5/early T6 level, even tri-spec Hemo stops being worth the tradeoff.
#1232SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Pale
Originally Posted by koaschten View Post
Corrected that sentence there for you. You only end up tanking when pulling aggro, 15 seconds won't change a thing. The only time it's not your fault is when the tank dies... and then it's over anyway.
Not appreciated, and not correct either. When on new content, mistakes are made, extra time means extra chances to learn/practice. I've tanked Mag for a full minute when the MT went down, OT'd Gruul when a tank went down. Immediately hitting vanish would only have meant that someone that doesn't have the escape routes ends up in trouble.
#1233SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Ozzmar
Originally Posted by Pale View Post
Ghostly Strike, Evasion, and I can live for 15 more seconds, giving the raid time to recover from whatever mistake it was we made. I believe in survivability, dead rogues deal no damage. You believe in doing 0,4% more dmg, fair enough
And dead tanks don't tank anything... I don't mean to be disrespectful by any means, but offtanking (or compensating for mistakes) is not your job - damage is. If a tank dies, a Feral druid could much more easily soak up the damage adequately. Not to mention, he's going to actually be able to finish the fight - not just provide a band-aid that's just going to get bled through in 15 seconds (if not sooner).

You've made it abundantly clear that you think the miniscule amount of dodge gained at the cost of damage output is your decision, and that's fine. But it's an intangible benefit based totally on luck every time the boss takes a swing, and trying to argue that it's a justifiable approach to speccing and gearing your raid rogue isn't going to hold up in here, I'm sorry.
#1234SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Dontmindme
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
Regarding the Deadly Poison estimate: I think the difference between the frequency of having no poison up and the frequency of having some other number of stacks up is not the same, as the transition table is different, as it's not possible for the number of stacks to drop from, say, 2 to 1 or 5 to 3. If poison stacks dropped off one at a time, something like that would be possible; since they all drop at once, I don't think it quite works (although I'm having a hard time explaining why).

That said: I did just have an idea how to improve this model to more accurately reflect the real-world case, but it's getting rather late so I don't have the brainpower to push it through to a solution. I'll try to do that tomorrow when I'm more awake.
The thing is that when a stack drops from 2 to 0 or 5 to 0 it does come back up through 1 stack or 3 stacks (at least most of the time). So, to some extent, it is dropping to 1 or 3 just through the predecessors (with a certain dropoff as sometimes it drops before it gets there). That dropoff can be reflected in the difference between the probability uptimes between a certain stack and its predecessor. The problem I've seen with other models is that the uptime at various intermediate stacks is generally considered constant which we know can't be the case, as we know it does sometimes drop from say 2 stacks before it reaches 3 stacks. So, certainly there should be a level of degradation as the stacks increase which this model reflects (the question being whether it reflects it correctly). I've got some ideas on how to test this model, but not sure when I'll have the time to put it together.
#1235SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Hanos
Originally Posted by Pale View Post
So what the sheet does is allow you to eat all your own hemo charges, which in most raids won't happen.

So as I see it, there's nothing wrong with one shadowstep rogue in the raid. Your overall damage contribution to the raid won't differ much (-1,19% with my gear and some gem corrections) and it's a nice change of play. However, if you care a lot about being high on Recount/DM/etc.. go combat/swords.
What you are still missing is that there is a "small" DPS loss with the best possible scenario, which would be even smaller with a Tri-Spec (Hemo Buffbot) Build, and you would still get Ghostly Strike, however, in the real world that "small" DPS loss from my experience is really more like 10-15% instead of 1-2%.

The ability to stack and chain cooldowns is huge. If you are looking at a fight like Patchwerk, yes Hemo comes close, however if you look at a fight like Gurtogg or Archimonde or Illidan, where you are running in and out, or you have a phase where you want to control aggro followed by a zerg, then Combat really pulls ahead. The power of Combat is the highly controlled burst, on Archimonde I can wait for the fear and then blow AR, BF, Drums, and call for Heroism and blow up, where you could... Hemo and S&D and Rupture.

As far as having a contingency for screwing up on T4 content... that isn't what most of us are concerned about. If your tank dies, it isn't the rogue's job to tank, it is the rogue's job to vanish and let the Feral or Warrior get aggro and restabilize. The truth of the matter is the most rogues who want to raid Shadowstep just don't want to eat the cost of respec'ing for PvP, and they want to PvP as Shadowstep. If that is the case and the extra DPS doesn't matter (and it doesn't in T4) then more power to you. But don't try to advocate it for high end raiding, I showed a number of parses of 20/0/41 vs Combat a week or so ago and the results were 10-15% not 1-2%.
#1236SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Shaker
So, just for further reference, because I suppose the NAME OF THE FORUMS didn't make it abundantly clear:

Yes. We, the rogue community at the Elitist Jerks forums, are very interested in DPS improvements for our characters at granularities of less than 1%.
#1237SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Pale
@hanos and shaker: once again, i'm not trying to get shadowstep established as a raid build.

My rogue is my alt. I was just trying to figure out if the original post of this thread is correct with it's -12% estimate, and it's not. The personal dps might drop by 12% but the hemo debuff gives something substantial in return. The reason I asked is that we're currently at Vashj, and shadowstep has a distinct advantage for a rogue if he needs to be on elementals.

@Ozzmar: please try to know what you talk about before replying, saves everyone work

@Dontmindme: /cheer for actually knowing what you talk about and phrasing it in a helpful way
#1238SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Stabmaster
Originally Posted by Pale View Post
Not appreciated, and not correct either. When on new content, mistakes are made, extra time means extra chances to learn/practice. I've tanked Mag for a full minute when the MT went down, OT'd Gruul when a tank went down. Immediately hitting vanish would only have meant that someone that doesn't have the escape routes ends up in trouble.
It's irrelevant that you offtanked those bosses for a few seconds. If your tank dies, it's a wipe, and your offtanking isn't going to have any value, except as comedic relief as people shout "ROUGE TANK LAWL"

You don't learn or practice anything, either, as Rogue tanking has no place in raids. What can you possibly learn in a handful of seconds Evasion tanking? Nothing, aside from the fact that you get one-shotted, and that the healers need to keep the MT alive in the first place. If your 15 seconds of Evasion tanking mean the difference between a 1% wipe and a 1% win, then the extra (considerably higher) dps of Sword spec will be more effective in dropping him before a complete wipe.

You can try and justify Lolstep in raids as much as you like, but it's not good or DPS-competitive, except for, perhaps, very low-level raids that are easily puggable -- and in that situation, who cares? Maximizing DPS is important for the many fights where you're under an enrage time limit or other timing factors.

Dodge is useless for a raiding Rogue now that cleaves have basically been eliminated. There is really no effective argument to the contrary, despite your assertions.
#1239SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Vulajin
Originally Posted by Pale View Post
I was just trying to figure out if the original post of this thread is correct with it's -12% estimate, and it's not. The personal dps might drop by 12% but the hemo debuff gives something substantial in return.
Originally Posted by Vulajin
Here's an up-to-date list of build rankings (ranked by personal DPS only) for patch 2.3.2:

1) Combat swords / Combat fist+sword (--)
2) Combat mace+sword / Combat fists (-1%)
3) Combat daggers / Combat maces (-3%)
4) Hemo+swords (-5%)
5) Hemo+fists (-7%)
6) Hemo+Deadliness (swords) / Hemo+maces (-8%)
7) Combat Mutilate (-?%)
8) Shadowstep (-12%)
Relevant part bolded. And trust me, it's correct.
#1240SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Ozzmar
Originally Posted by Pale View Post
@hanos and shaker: once again, i'm not trying to get shadowstep established as a raid build.

My rogue is my alt. I was just trying to figure out if the original post of this thread is correct with it's -12% estimate, and it's not. The personal dps might drop by 12% but the hemo debuff gives something substantial in return. The reason I asked is that we're currently at Vashj, and shadowstep has a distinct advantage for a rogue if he needs to be on elementals.

@Ozzmar: please try to know what you talk about before replying, saves everyone work

@Dontmindme: /cheer for actually knowing what you talk about and phrasing it in a helpful way
Well if you'd kindly point out where I've contradicted anyone else in this discussion, I'd welcome the correction. I've only tried to be completely honest and helpful thusfar, and your dismissive tone is slightly disrespectful.
#1241SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Ruqas
Originally Posted by Pale View Post
@hanos and shaker: once again, i'm not trying to get shadowstep established as a raid build.

My rogue is my alt. I was just trying to figure out if the original post of this thread is correct with it's -12% estimate, and it's not. The personal dps might drop by 12% but the hemo debuff gives something substantial in return. The reason I asked is that we're currently at Vashj, and shadowstep has a distinct advantage for a rogue if he needs to be on elementals.

@Ozzmar: please try to know what you talk about before replying, saves everyone work

@Dontmindme: /cheer for actually knowing what you talk about and phrasing it in a helpful way
If you're not trying to get it established as a raid build, what are you doing posting? There is no clarification needed here. We all know the difference between Hemo builds' personal DPS and the DPS contributed to the raid. And a "nice change of play" is "ok" on farm content, but since you seem to be advertising the use of agility for mistakes made on progress content, it isn't. While it is true Hemo does give something "substantial" in return (substantial being used in this case as an excuse for doing less DPS overall), tri-spec still beats out Shadowstep.

What you are saying to Ozzmar is what you should be saying to yourself. You wasted everyone's time on making posts to show you how you either didn't think it through, or how survivability can easily replace stats with common sense and paying attention.

Even if you are on Lady Vashj running Shadowstep because it may prove more useful, you may not have the rest of the bosses on farm, which means that you are ruining your performance on the rest so you can perform well on another. Otherwise known as an exception to a rule. Of course, you may also consider the rest of bosses on farm. In that case, consider this last paragraph moot.
#1242SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
 Shaker
Originally Posted by Pale View Post
@hanos and shaker: once again, i'm not trying to get shadowstep established as a raid build.
No, you're just shitting up a thread which (admittedly) is prone to being shit up all too regularly, all because a) you couldn't read the first post, and b) like to get defensive about your build on a board where you disagree with the basic principles of a larger portion of the community.


(Edit to add) Just for clarification, we understand that you value the survivability and the mobility of that build more than the DPS increase you'd see from a different one. We just don't care, because in our opinions, it is not useful.

Last edited by Shaker : 01/30/08 at 4:20 PM.
#1243SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Hanos
Originally Posted by Pale View Post
@hanos and shaker: once again, i'm not trying to get shadowstep established as a raid build.

My rogue is my alt. I was just trying to figure out if the original post of this thread is correct with it's -12% estimate, and it's not. The personal dps might drop by 12% but the hemo debuff gives something substantial in return. The reason I asked is that we're currently at Vashj, and shadowstep has a distinct advantage for a rogue if he needs to be on elementals.
At extremely low gear levels the loss may only be 1-2% best case, however, the hemo debuff does not scale with gear, while everything about combat does (for example 2 piece T6 and Combat Potency). I would still argue that while the "theoretical DPS loss is only 1-2%" with your gear, the real world loss is far higher, the DPS of Hemo is very consistent, while Combat has far more burst. The more movement involved, the more value that burst has, for example Blade Flurry can be up 12.5% of the time, now if you are moving 50% of the time (not unreasonable on Vashj P2), now BF is up 25% of the time you are DPSing, same with AR.

For a fight like Vashj you are running all over the place, the ability to blow cooldowns to drop an Elite, or to burn her down during the enrage on phase 3 far outweighs the utility of being able to do something stupid like putting rogues on elementals in phase 2, you are better off sitting the rogue and bringing in an alt warlock if that is what you are trying to do.
#1244SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Dontmindme
While doing a little math at work during lunch I discovered a flaw with the above mentioned Deadly Poison model. It looks to be yet another simple formula that would be correct of the frequency of one's attacks were 0. Without boring anyone with excess mathematical detail, that formula does not work and Aldriana's initial instincts were correct. Still some hope of making a similar approach work, but if I derive the details, I'll open up a Roguecraft 201 thread...

Nothing to see here...move along...
#1245SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Ozzmar
Phht, post it I say! I love reading these discussions between you guys. They're interesting!
#1246SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Aldriana
On the Deadly Poison debate: I have good news, bad news, good news, bad news, good news, and bad news.

Good news: I'm pretty sure I've figured out a way to solve the problem in the general case.

Bad news: Doing so involves computing the eigenvalues of a 20x20 (or so) matrix - which can't be done symbolically in general, meaning that the best we're going to do is a numerical approximation... which is utterly useless, since we can already get that by simply running a simulation.

Good news: The approach simplifies nicely in the case where poison uptime periods are "long" - that is, where poison usually has time to stack up to 5 before it drops again.

Bad news: Even solving that requires computing the eigenvalues of a 4x4 matrix, which, while possible in the general case, is so unimaginably messy that it's really not any better as a solution.

Good news: I think there's a way to bypass the matrix entirely in this simplified case and directly compute what you need.

Bad news: The details of doing so are sufficiently messy that it's gonna take me a couple days to work it out.

So, long story short: I have an idea for an approach that I'm pretty sure gets a better answer than we currently have; if you're interested in knowing the details and/or would like to assist with the math, PM me; if there's enough interest, I'll create a upper-division rogue math thread (which I think should probably be called something other than "Roguecraft 201" to avoid confusing the casual forumer) and explain the approach there.
#1247SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Pale
Originally Posted by Hanos View Post
At extremely low gear levels the loss may only be 1-2% best case, however, the hemo debuff does not scale with gear, while everything about combat does (for example 2 piece T6 and Combat Potency). I would still argue that while the "theoretical DPS loss is only 1-2%" with your gear, the real world loss is far higher, the DPS of Hemo is very consistent, while Combat has far more burst. The more movement involved, the more value that burst has, for example Blade Flurry can be up 12.5% of the time, now if you are moving 50% of the time (not unreasonable on Vashj P2), now BF is up 25% of the time you are DPSing, same with AR.

For a fight like Vashj you are running all over the place, the ability to blow cooldowns to drop an Elite, or to burn her down during the enrage on phase 3 far outweighs the utility of being able to do something stupid like putting rogues on elementals in phase 2, you are better off sitting the rogue and bringing in an alt warlock if that is what you are trying to do.
Thanks, point taken.
#1248SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3NvidiaN
A question for you intelligent folk whom I rather look up to:

On my forum we have a "DPS Wall of Shame" thread, in which we post WWS reports for various fights and shine a light on melee players who are slacking. After comparing my "buffed DPS" which from my understanding is the max possible DPS I can do, to my obtained numbers on fights such as Leotheras the Blind in SSC, I see that my obtained DPS is lower which only makes sense.

Is there some sort of generally accepted "formula" for determining the amount of DPS lost due to downtime? I understand that some fights just aren't rogue friendly, but I'm trying to find a way to put exact numbers to this idea.
#1249SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Aldriana
Short answer: no.

Long answer: For any specific fight, with not unreasonable effort, one could probably come up with a reasonable downtime estimate. However, in practice, since every fight is different, no concerted effort to do this has occurred. It's sort of on my to-do list, but it's pretty darn far down the list.
#1250SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Busko
Hi guys i been trying to figure out how good haste is for us and how it compares to other stats like hit and ap etc. At the moment with my current gear it says that for me the Shadow-Walkers Cord is the best.
#1251SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Hanos
Originally Posted by Busko View Post
Hi guys i been trying to figure out how good haste is for us and how it compares to other stats like hit and ap etc. At the moment with my current gear it says that for me the Shadow-Walkers Cord is the best.
I have a very hard time believing that. What is this "it" you are referring to? The current belt ranking puts it 4th I belive behind: Belt of One-Hundred Deaths, Belt of Deep Shadows and Don Alejandro's Money Belt. The lack of sockets, lack of hit, and high stamina all contribute to Shadow-Walkers Cord being inferior.
#1252SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3saedo
Originally Posted by Hanos View Post
I have a very hard time believing that. What is this "it" you are referring to? The current belt ranking puts it 4th I belive behind: Belt of One-Hundred Deaths, Belt of Deep Shadows and Don Alejandro's Money Belt. The lack of sockets, lack of hit, and high stamina all contribute to Shadow-Walkers Cord being inferior.
I'd say it depends on amount of gear/buffs you get. For me on the spreadsheets it could clock in from 2nd to 4th best belt with various buffs on. A single big factor is Windfury (I only get it bout 50% of the raids), that alone seems to drop the value of the belt a chunk.
#1253SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Hanos
Originally Posted by saedo View Post
I'd say it depends on amount of gear/buffs you get. For me on the spreadsheets it could clock in from 2nd to 4th best belt with various buffs on. A single big factor is Windfury (I only get it bout 50% of the raids), that alone seems to drop the value of the belt a chunk.
What type of screwy raid set up results in rogues raiding without Windfury 50% of the time?
#1254SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Ozzmar
An Alliance guild with 3 elemental shamans. No, I'm definitely not talking about my own.
#1255SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Aldriana
I was in a guild for a while that only had one shaman in it for basically all of T5 content - as such, WF availability was, shall we say, somewhat intermittent (particularly since on many fights we needed to give it to the tank for aggro reasons). So these things happen. However, in guilds where such matters *are* the case, the first and largest optimization that the guild in question should perform is "recruit more shamans". In the meantime, however, it's lack does have a significant effect on the relative quality of some stats (in particular, hit and expertise are worth significantly less without WF).
#1256SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Shair
Weapons

Hi guys, as you can see, I'm new here. I have been reading these forum for quite some time tho.

I got some questions that i want some feedback to.

1. I recently got Talon of Azshara, but I'm currently combat daggers and of course I'm respeccing to Combat swords, But i don't have an offhand sword. Should i continue with combat daggers untill i have an OH sword? Or should i play with Sword in MH and merciless dagger (My current offhand) OH?

2. Are my stats/gear good for an guild which has just started MH/BT? I know I still have 2t4 , but that's only because of my current dagger specc, (and i find t5 rather sucky, 'cept from gloves).

Armory: The World of Warcraft Armory

//Shair
#1257SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3koaschten
1. You want a sword in your offhand. Be it Latro's or a pvp reward. A Dagger won't cut it
2. Without comparing the gear of you and your guild, knowing how long you have been in t5 and how far you progressed. It's hard to figure out.

And a friendly tip, don't sign your posts, its frowned upon.
#1258SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3saedo
Originally Posted by Hanos View Post
What type of screwy raid set up results in rogues raiding without Windfury 50% of the time?
Lack of stable shamans (of any spec) available for every raid. You can say recruit more, but they have to come, be online, not come down with rl scheduling problems, and not gquit. Haven't had the best of luck with em yet.
#1259SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Busko
:P well its more about the haste rating i was asking Was wondering how i could compare it to other stats

Last edited by Busko : 01/31/08 at 10:12 PM.
#1260SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Vulajin
Originally Posted by Busko View Post
:P well its more about the haste rating i was asking Was wondering how i could compare it to other stats
Possibly using the method described in the first post of this thread, which you should have read before posting.
#1261SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Ranog
Originally Posted by Vulajin View Post
Your base chance to be dodged by a raid boss with any attack is thought to be 6.5%. For each 3.94 expertise rating you equip, you gain 1 expertise, reducing your chance to be dodged by 0.25% (thus it takes exactly 15.77 expertise rating to reduce your chance to be dodged by 1%).
At the warrior theorycrafting for 2.3 it is only 5.6% dodge (and ca. 10% parry). Ist there a explanation or source for 6.5% dodge at Level 73 raid boss?
#1262SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Busko
So Vulajin would that mean that 1% (aka 15.77 rating) hit is 5.57% better then haste ? Meaning i need only 2 extra points in Haste rating for it to be equal of 1% hit. math not my strong side so i might be totally wrong >_< Oh yea and the 5.57% is from the difference of theres EP.

Last edited by Busko : 02/01/08 at 6:39 AM.
#1263SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Giske
This is a great thread, just one request I would like to make. Next time you update could your perhaps include a notice at the sections that have been updated or revised? Just a little (Updated 02/01/08) or something like that to make it easier to locate the new information.
#1264SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3cmecu
We beat Kael after 3 nights of attempts , and now are offcially in Hyjal. We goofed around doing the first encounter and got to wave 8 ( seems likes its going to be a fun place )

Any how, I trying to shape my rogue, into being the most effective, and getting the best pieces for him to make him optimal. I have patience to wait for a specific items to drop that will be the best for me. I just dont know what I need to be looking for.

I seen the Rogue spead sheet, and i tried to figure every thing out on it. But I dont think understand it fully. I am having trouble figuring out what exactly i need my hit to be at right now. Its at 249, but im still missing about 5 % ( according to recount ) Right now I have Alar's Fist / Kings defender sword ( didnt have any other off hand sword at the moment , and waiting for one to drop for me ) which i took over my vashj / merc dagger ( the fist was giving me alot more dps then daggers ) I need to figure out what gear i need to be looking for in Hyjal, and also what gear i missed or should had gotten back in TK, SSC.
I see some non set items drop, like the Leggings of Murderous Intent dropped last night from kael, and i didnt know if they would had been better then deathmantle legs. I need to get my future figured out in what i want in gear. Any help would be great thanks.

On a side note, i seen that mace Kael drops that restores energy or rage on hit, are their any rogues that use this mace, and like it over other weapons, or is its dps weak compared to other specs.
#1265SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3FromTheAshes
I have a small question about offhand sword spec. My raiding experience extends to za and Gruuls mostly. Our last gruuls run i replaced my merc glad shiv(with mongoose) with gladiators off hand sword ( no mongoose) , and snagged sword spec along with fist spec (im main handing rage) I noticed a significant increase ( 6-7%) to my total dps that fight. is offhand sword spec really that good? or can this be attributed to skewed stats? i plan on testing it further myself but i was hoping to hear a few opinions. Thank you.
#1266SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Ozzmar
Originally Posted by Busko View Post
So Vulajin would that mean that 1% (aka 15.77 rating) hit is 5.57% better then haste ? Meaning i need only 2 extra points in Haste rating for it to be equal of 1% hit. math not my strong side so i might be totally wrong >_< Oh yea and the 5.57% is from the difference of theres EP.
This is what the Rogue DPS Spreadsheet is for. The equivalence of hit and haste is going to be different for every rogue, so there's no black & white answer for you. Go download the spreadsheet, plug your gear and talents into it, and it'll tell you what stats are best for you.

FromTheAshes,

Well, that depends on what spec you were using with your dagger(s?). If you were Mutilate, then the commonly-held belief is that you'd see about 10-12% more DPS going Fist/Sword.
#1267SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Hanos
Originally Posted by cmecu View Post
Any how, I trying to shape my rogue, into being the most effective, and getting the best pieces for him to make him optimal. I have patience to wait for a specific items to drop that will be the best for me. I just dont know what I need to be looking for.
What you will find is there is essentially two tiers of gear in T6, so you can wait for the better one or get both. Based on what I know about AiD's loot system, you want to grab both. Here are the various items that you want to pick up with items that are better then T5 equivalent, but worse then the optimal item in ().

Head: Cursed Visions of Sargeras - Illidan, (T6 Helm - Archimonde, better until you can get the 4 piece bonus without it)
Neck: Choker of Endless Nightmares - Supremus, (Choker of Serrated Blades - More of a PvP Item)
Shoulders: T6 Shoulders - Mother, (Mantle of Darkness - High Warlord, worth getting because there is normally a couple months between High Warlord and Mother)
Cloak - Shadowmoon Destroyer's Drape - Teron
Chest - T6 Chest - Illidan, (Nethershadow Tunic - Supremus or Midnight Chestguard - Archimonde both are very close and vastly better then anything T5, and it will be a long time before everyone has T6 Chests)
Bracers - Insidious Bands - Teron, (Deadly Cuffs - Rage, Crit is just worse then Agi and these are about 7-8 DPS worse then the Teron ones)
Gloves - T6, ones off RoS aren't worth using
Belt - Belt of One-Hundred Deaths - Vashj (Belt of Deep Shadow - Crafted from SSC/TK or Don Alejandro's from Anetheron)
Legs - T6 - Council, the legs off Kaz'rogal are pretty bad but they are a stem upgrade over T4 and offer some -armor for low AC bosses (all of Hyjal, Teron, Mother and Council)
Boots - Shadowmaster's - Mother, (Blackfeatherlight off Kaz'rogal are basically a DPS sidegrade from Edgewalker's which you already have so not worth picking up except for looks unless they are going to rot)
Rings - Stormrage Signet Ring - Illidan and Signet of Primal Wrath from ZA is ideal (Ring of Deceitful Intent - Shade of Akaman, Ring of Lethality - Hydross and Band of the Ranger General - Kael, are all better then what you have now)
Trinkets - Dragonspine Trophy/Warp-Spring Coil or Ashtongue Talisman of Lethality is ideal, so you really don't need to pick anything up here, if you see a Warp-spring drop, grab it otherwise just wait for the BT Rep Trinket
Weapons - Blade of Infamy - Anetheron and Blade of Savagery - Mother is the best weapon set other then the Warglaives, the daggers are inferior, but probably an upgrade from what you have now (if you can get 2 of them, and they tend to drop like candy).

I seen the Rogue spead sheet, and i tried to figure every thing out on it. But I dont think understand it fully. I am having trouble figuring out what exactly i need my hit to be at right now. Its at 249, but im still missing about 5 % ( according to recount ) Right now I have Alar's Fist / Kings defender sword ( didnt have any other off hand sword at the moment , and waiting for one to drop for me ) which i took over my vashj / merc dagger ( the fist was giving me alot more dps then daggers ) I need to figure out what gear i need to be looking for in Hyjal, and also what gear i missed or should had gotten back in TK, SSC.
First off King's Defender on a rogue is a massive failure, get a Latro's or a S1/2/3 OH Sword from PvP, you won't have another option till you get to Mother which won't be for several months at best. The amount of hit you need depends on your gear, use the gear guild above and gem to get your meta requirements, and stack hit everywhere else. As long as you stay under 363, you will be fine and really can't go wrong with +10 Hit or +5 Hit/+ Agi gems in every slot.

I see some non set items drop, like the Leggings of Murderous Intent dropped last night from kael, and i didnt know if they would had been better then deathmantle legs. I need to get my future figured out in what i want in gear. Any help would be great thanks.
Those legs suck, the Kara, T5, T4 and Badge ones are all just as good or better.

On a side note, i seen that mace Kael drops that restores energy or rage on hit, are their any rogues that use this mace, and like it over other weapons, or is its dps weak compared to other specs.
Mace Spec sucks, it is a DPS Warrior weapon or Arena Toy for rogues, your fist will do more DPS as will the sword off Anetheron.



Originally Posted by FromTheAshes View Post
I have a small question about offhand sword spec. My raiding experience extends to za and Gruuls mostly. Our last gruuls run i replaced my merc glad shiv(with mongoose) with gladiators off hand sword ( no mongoose) , and snagged sword spec along with fist spec (im main handing rage) I noticed a significant increase ( 6-7%) to my total dps that fight. is offhand sword spec really that good? or can this be attributed to skewed stats? i plan on testing it further myself but i was hoping to hear a few opinions. Thank you.
It is really that good, because it causes you to hit with your MH weapon when it procs.
#1268SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3FromTheAshes
No, between previous attempts and the most current ones ive main handed rage the whole time. I picked the dagger because it was the fastest and that seemed good enough a decision to me for combat potency, poisons procs etc. So to reiterate My previous attempts i main handed Rage(Mongoose) with Merciless Gladiators Shiv(Mongoose) as Fist spec. I changed it up to Rage(Mongoose) and Gladiators Slicer Offhand(No enchant) with hybrid sword/fist spec. even with lack of mongoose on the offhand, less dps, slower speed, i saw greater dps overall due to oh sword spec proccing main hand Rage hits. What im attempting to clarify is why it accounted for a 6-7% increase to my overall dps. do i need more data? Of course.But i wanted more thoughts weighing hybrid sword/x specs against pure fists or maces.
#1269SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Hanos
Originally Posted by FromTheAshes View Post
No, between previous attempts and the most current ones ive main handed rage the whole time. I picked the dagger because it was the fastest and that seemed good enough a decision to me for combat potency, poisons procs etc. So to reiterate My previous attempts i main handed Rage(Mongoose) with Merciless Gladiators Shiv(Mongoose) as Fist spec. I changed it up to Rage(Mongoose) and Gladiators Slicer Offhand(No enchant) with hybrid sword/fist spec. even with lack of mongoose on the offhand, less dps, slower speed, i saw greater dps overall due to oh sword spec proccing main hand Rage hits. What im attempting to clarify is why it accounted for a 6-7% increase to my overall dps. do i need more data? Of course.But i wanted more thoughts weighing hybrid sword/x specs against pure fists or maces.
Going to have to go with use the spreadsheet as I really don't feel like plugging your specific gear into it for you, but I would say that it is well within the range of possibility. The use of MH Fist/OH Dagger is a bit of a wasted spec, so by going to MH Fist/OH Sword you are going to see an increase, the exact amount depends on too many other variables, but 6-7% is too high for a lower DPS unenchanted OH. My guess is you got some lucky procs, higher DPS time, better debuffs on the mob or something. Unless you can provide WWS Parses this is kind of pointless to try to figure out. There is plenty of information on relative ranking of specs in the first post, and if you have more specific questions consult the spreadsheet or provide a WWS Parse.
#1270SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3enno
What I kinda miss in this topics starting post and which is a huge mystery to a lot of rogues is stuff like, "you can't dodge when stunned", "Players can't block attacks from behind them", Players can dodge attacks from behind", etc.

Perhaps somebody could add those? (and I'm not summing the variations up caus I'm not sure myself)
#1271SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Latito
Originally Posted by enno View Post
What I kinda miss in this topics starting post and which is a huge mystery to a lot of rogues is stuff like, "you can't dodge when stunned", "Players can't block attacks from behind them", Players can dodge attacks from behind", etc.

Perhaps somebody could add those? (and I'm not summing the variations up caus I'm not sure myself)
-Players and Mobs can't dodge, block or parry while casting or stunned (but an attack can miss still)
-Players and Mobs can't block or parry attacks from behind (which is partly why rogues should ALWAYS attack from behind..)
-Players canNOT dodge attacks from behind
-Mobs CAN dodge attacks from behind



2 additions to what Hanos said a few posts ago - S3 MH sword is better than Blade of Infamy, if you can get it.. do so. Socketing all +10 hit and +5hit/+5agi is good - as long as you have 2 slots with a blue (likely purple) gem to get your RED Meta requirement. Generally the idea is to find the best two socket bonuses that require a blue gem and stick a +5agi/+7stam gem in those 2 slots, then fill everything else with either +10 hit (yellow sockets) or +5hit/+5agi (red sockets). In the gear setup Hanos listed.. that would be T6 Shoulders and Chest. Armory me if you want an example - note I still need a new belt.



Re: Hit vs Haste
Like Hanos/Ozz said, check the spreadsheet. In a general sense, hit is nice because it turns a miss (which cannot proc Mongoose, Executioner, DST, Combat Potency, Sword Spec, WF, etc) into a hit (which can proc all that stuff). However in terms of the damage increase from the extra attacks (ignoring proc'd attacks like SS and WF).. Haste will be better for any moderately geared rogue.

Example:
5% miss, 4% dodge, 30% crit, ~6% dmg reduction from glancing (not exact, but close enough for demonstration) and the rest will just hit
This works out to (5 * 0) + (4 * 0) + (30 * 2) + (6 * 0) + (50 * 1) = 110% damage per attack. That is, after averaging out crits, misses, dodges, etc.. you will be doing an average of 110% 'base' damage. Adding an extra 1% hit does not multiply your dps by 1%, but rather ADDS 1 to the total, giving you 111%. Adding 1% haste will make you miss, crit, dodge, hit, etc more - a full 1% multiplicative increase in dmg done on your auto attacks. In this example, that would be 111.1% dmg per attack - a small difference for sure, one which is then balanced out by the increase in procs you get with adding hit rating on PPM effects.

When you change the hit table a bit you can skew things such that hit will be even better than haste even w/o the extra procs. For example, a crappy rogue with 15% miss, 6% dodge, 6% glance reduction, 20% crit.. you end up with an average of only 93% dmg per attack. Haste still multiplies to 93.93%, but hit adds to 94%.

Change things the other way to 0% miss, 4% dodge, 6% glance reduction and 45% crit, you get a total of 135% dmg per attack - haste now bumps you to 136.35, hit to 136.



If this is making you go "woah.. you lost me there".. just use and trust the damn spreadsheet - it does this all for you.
(sorry this post was quite unformatted and such)
#1272SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3cmecu
Thanks for replying Hanos . That all sounds good for when I finally get to there. I dont expect to be seeing any of all that BT loot for a while yet. Plus last night was our first Kael kill, and first venture into Hyjal. I know my gear can be optimized better then what i currently have for the content we raid.. Which is every thing up to Hyjal. I will rpelace my offhand. I just had it as a temporary thing until i got me something better for an offhand sword.
I will need to back track on SSC loot and TK that i have missed out on due item not dropping, or i was at work and couldnt raid that night.
I still am one of the top dps, depending on encoutner.
I mainly need to know what my hit should be at . I didnt see any hit guide you were talking about other then that rogue dps spread sheet, but that thing gives me a headache to look at. Its too much for me to take in.
I appeciate all the help you have said so far
#1273SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Busko
Vulajin i use the speed sheet. I was just interested to know if you could make like you said black and white convention of haste to hit. With my current gear only a few items i can find as upgrade. But its ok i will just laborate a bit more i guess with the sheets. Thanks for the reply.
#1274SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Hanos
Originally Posted by cmecu View Post
Thanks for replying Hanos . That all sounds good for when I finally get to there. I dont expect to be seeing any of all that BT loot for a while yet. Plus last night was our first Kael kill, and first venture into Hyjal. I know my gear can be optimized better then what i currently have for the content we raid.. Which is every thing up to Hyjal. I will rpelace my offhand. I just had it as a temporary thing until i got me something better for an offhand sword.
I will need to back track on SSC loot and TK that i have missed out on due item not dropping, or i was at work and couldnt raid that night.
I still am one of the top dps, depending on encoutner.
I mainly need to know what my hit should be at . I didnt see any hit guide you were talking about other then that rogue dps spread sheet, but that thing gives me a headache to look at. Its too much for me to take in.
I appeciate all the help you have said so far
The spreadsheet is really simple but can be overwhelming if you let it. For simplicity, you can now import your gear and spec, hit the Items Macro button in the top left corner of the gear sheet and sit back while it tells you how much of an upgrade every item is.

From T5, if at all possible you want to pick up the belt off Vashj and the gun from Al'ar, everything else will be replaced in BT/Hyjal.

As far as hit rating there is no hard cap, it all has to do with the other stats on the items. For example, my Ring of Lethality has 19 Hit on it, but the Signet of Primal Wrath from ZA has 0 hit, however the Signet is a better ring and will increase my DPS. The rule of thumb is, gem for hit, and use the best items available, 250 is a threshold I personally wouldn't drop below, but due to the fact that I didn't like T5, I personally haven't dropped below 300 in close to a year.

Gems: 2 Purple, 2 Red, the rest Yellow unless you are approaching 363 hit or will go over (you won't with the set we listed), in which case you would use some more +5 Agi/+5 Hit gems (most of the ones you see in my gear are from before the +10 Hit gem was added to the game, otherwise I would only have 2, and I haven't bothered to have them replaced).
#1275SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Dontmindme
I believe both spreadsheets show stat equivalences. If you look toward the bottom of the Talent page, you can see the value of each stat relative to one Agility. I would normally suggest optimizing it by hitting the Calculate AEP Macro button there, but a few items break that process now. It may still work for you, but it might not. If it bugs for you, you will need to unequip a proc related trinket and replace it with something semi-equivalent and click it again. Either way, you should be able to see the relative relationship between Haste and Hit rating.
#1276SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Vulajin
Originally Posted by Busko View Post
Vulajin i use the speed sheet. I was just interested to know if you could make like you said black and white convention of haste to hit. With my current gear only a few items i can find as upgrade. But its ok i will just laborate a bit more i guess with the sheets. Thanks for the reply.
As a general answer to this type of question, there are two points:

1) Yes, you can make a generalized comparison between two different stats, and the answer to that type of comparison is given by the EP weights in the first post. For a pretty good majority of rogues, those weights will give you a satisfactory comparison of two arbitrary pieces of gear.

2) The comparison between two different stats does vary depending on your current gear and the buffs you receive in raids. The math for this comparison is sufficiently complex that you should simply use the spreadsheet to obtain an exact comparison for your gear and buffs.
#1277SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Tobb
Arm Pentration?

What is the thought on the value of Armor Pentration...

I can keep my 2pc T4 bonus (gloves, helm) or use S3 helm.

I also have Arm Pen from Dory's Embrace, S3 Chest to get a total of 280 arm pentration.

Does it calculated in the spreadsheet?
#1278SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Akken
Thanks for the answer to my last post. As I continue to work on this new toon I guess I've slammed into a gemming question. I also know these types of questions are better answered by the DPS spreadsheet but to be honest I don't see where to enter my stats/numbers, so I assumed you only can select your gear and in the event that your item isn't listed then well simply put you can't (so I gave up on it) (I'm probably wrong of course but moving on).

This is a reroll toon btw (still pre Kara as well).

Ok to start my stats are as follows.

Attack Power: 1216
Hit: 232
Crit 17.16%

Unbuffed my sustained DPS (non raid environment) is 530. I'm not sure if that's even good for those horrid stats to begin with. *could someone respond on this also I want to be sure I am doing my job even if my gear sucks.*

Ok I have a chance to make a few minor upgrades that will give me 6 gem slots to play with.

2 red, 1 yellow, that trigger a socket bonus of 4 crit rating.
2 red, 1 blue, that opens up a none dps bonus so won't list it.

I understand using +4hit/4agi gems in red and +8hit in yellow when trying to get the bonus unless near hit cap. But would throwing 3 x +8 hit in the second item I listed (no useful socket bonus), and then 2 x +4hit/4agi with 1 +8hit in the other item be a wise move?

All of my stats are so low I'm not sure if I should just balance instead of pumping up one of the items with +hit.

Side note: I will lose about 30 Attack Power when switching my items to the upgrades.

Sorry so long.
#1279SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3koaschten
Originally Posted by Hanos View Post
Gems: 2 Purple, 2 Red, the rest Yellow unless you are approaching 363 hit or will go over (you won't with the set we listed), in which case you would use some more +5 Agi/+5 Hit gems (most of the ones you see in my gear are from before the +10 Hit gem was added to the game, otherwise I would only have 2, and I haven't bothered to have them replaced).
Out of curiosity, is there a meta gem that requires 2 blue 4 red which i am not aware of? Unless there is, you use two red gems for... nothing?
#1280SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
cmecu
Originally Posted by Hanos View Post
The spreadsheet is really simple but can be overwhelming if you let it. For simplicity, you can now import your gear and spec, hit the Items Macro button in the top left corner of the gear sheet and sit back while it tells you how much of an upgrade every item is.

From T5, if at all possible you want to pick up the belt off Vashj and the gun from Al'ar, everything else will be replaced in BT/Hyjal.

As far as hit rating there is no hard cap, it all has to do with the other stats on the items. For example, my Ring of Lethality has 19 Hit on it, but the Signet of Primal Wrath from ZA has 0 hit, however the Signet is a better ring and will increase my DPS. The rule of thumb is, gem for hit, and use the best items available, 250 is a threshold I personally wouldn't drop below, but due to the fact that I didn't like T5, I personally haven't dropped below 300 in close to a year.

Gems: 2 Purple, 2 Red, the rest Yellow unless you are approaching 363 hit or will go over (you won't with the set we listed), in which case you would use some more +5 Agi/+5 Hit gems (most of the ones you see in my gear are from before the +10 Hit gem was added to the game, otherwise I would only have 2, and I haven't bothered to have them replaced).
Thanks again hanos. I am heading to area 52 right now , because my off hand is something i can take care of right now. I was thinking , should i stay sword offhand, or get the offhand fist, that way i can spend the sword points else where , like Vile poisons maybe ? would that be higher dps , or staying fist sword.

As for the spread sheet, i must have been using an old one or something, becuase it didnt have some of the loot i have on it. I found the newest and updated one.. Only thing it said was in the upper right and left corner ( where it says import armory ectect .. ) is this will not work with open office.

i dont have Microsoft excel , and the free trial one I downloaded does not allowed Macros to be enabled, or really any thing enabled.
I am not sure how else i can import my armory unless i buy excel .. any help with that ?
Thank you.

Last edited by cmecu : 02/01/08 at 9:00 PM.
#1281SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3FromTheAshes
Originally Posted by Hanos View Post
Going to have to go with use the spreadsheet as I really don't feel like plugging your specific gear into it for you, but I would say that it is well within the range of possibility. The use of MH Fist/OH Dagger is a bit of a wasted spec, so by going to MH Fist/OH Sword you are going to see an increase, the exact amount depends on too many other variables, but 6-7% is too high for a lower DPS unenchanted OH. My guess is you got some lucky procs, higher DPS time, better debuffs on the mob or something. Unless you can provide WWS Parses this is kind of pointless to try to figure out. There is plenty of information on relative ranking of specs in the first post, and if you have more specific questions consult the spreadsheet or provide a WWS Parse.
Something i didint take into account the enhance shaman in my group got a ton of gear upgrades from the last time i had raided with her. i asked her and she said her crit chance had increased by almost 4%, so i could probably attribute the increased damage to more unleashed rage uptime as well. sorry for being vague, but i dont have excel or any program to use the spreadsheets.
#1282SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3koaschten
Consider downloading OpenOffice then perhaps. Its freeware and the Rogue Gear Spreadsheet got a OO Version.
#1283SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Dontmindme
In fact, the basic functions of the DPS spreadsheet also works with Open Office...the Macros are just added features.
#1284SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3cmecu
Originally Posted by Dontmindme View Post
In fact, the basic functions of the DPS spreadsheet also works with Open Office...the Macros are just added features.

Yeah i just used the one for open office. I got every thing filled in exactly to how my character is.

But something is wrong..

The Spread sheet has my Current hit as 262 but in reality in the gamne its only 249
The spread sheet says my Optimal hit is 248 but in game .. who knows.. but i do know according to Recount dmg meter i still am showing about a 6.9 % miss rate.

Those numbers arent backwards either, its exactly what the spread sheet says.

I would really like to get the other spread sheet for excel working, but i dont have excel, and no way to import my armory into the spread sheet.
#1285SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3koaschten
As you just learned how to manually fill out the Rogue Gear Spreadsheet, this works for the Rogue DPS Spreadsheet in OO either as Dontmindme mentioned.

As for the +hit difference in the Rogue Gear Spreadsheet, you might want to have a look at the buffs tab to see if the hit food was active and if you got the same gemming/enchanting in the sheet.
#1286SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Vulajin
Finally finished off some work I had been doing on the first post. Please take a look over it and provide feedback, I'm particularly interested to know if people think any sections are too verbose now. I tried to incorporate a lot of additional information, but may have been a bit too comprehensive.

Also, if anyone thinks there's some topic that I've been overlooking, please let me know. There have been a LOT of pages of discussion in this thread, I may very easily have missed some gem of a suggestion at some point.
#1287SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Furizaa
First of all: Thanks for the hard work in this thread and please excuse my bad english. Regardless the new clearification in the first Post, it's still a heavy discussion on my server what mainhand-enchant is the one which gives you more DPS (in T6 and eqivalent equip). The old Mongoose vs Executioner thread seems to have no point at the end about this case (saying Exe is the better enchant for Fury Warriors). The Spreadsheet backups the conclusion given in the first Post and it's also my point of view - but... jeah... not the opinion of all rogues
Thanks for your trouble
#1288SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3koaschten
Furizaa, ask yourself two questions:
1. is curse of recklessness up?
2. is fairie fire up?

If you can answer both with yes, have 4/5 t6 with some signet of primal wrath, MotB/WSC you will find out that Executioner is superior in any situation.
If you fail to answer yes on one or both questions, low armor bosses will favour Executioner and high armor bosses will turn in favour of mongoose.

It's all in the sheets.

The point is, how close to zero armor are you without executioner when you have "your standard debuffs" on a boss.
#1289SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Aldriana
Originally Posted by Vulajin View Post
Finally finished off some work I had been doing on the first post. Please take a look over it and provide feedback, I'm particularly interested to know if people think any sections are too verbose now. I tried to incorporate a lot of additional information, but may have been a bit too comprehensive.

Also, if anyone thinks there's some topic that I've been overlooking, please let me know. There have been a LOT of pages of discussion in this thread, I may very easily have missed some gem of a suggestion at some point.
Comments:

1) When displaying damage comparisons between the main builds, it seems to me that you're reporting them to rather more significant figures that we reasonably can know. Or more accurately: the accuracy with which they are stated implies that it's differences between very specific sets of gear/buffs/etc, rather the general difference between specs (which would have more variance). So I might report them to at most a tenth of a percent if not the whole percent.

2) I'm not sure "There is no "minimum" chance to miss melee attacks, nor to be dodged or parried." needs to be bolded. I think most people have gotten the idea on this one already, so while it's still a good piece of information to state, it doesn't really need to be emphasized.

3) It's actually not 100% clear to me that Thundering Skyfire Diamond beats Swift Skyfire Diamond in the general case. I mean, I'm nitpicking a bit, but: it means you can replace Cat's Swiftness with Dexterity on boots, and don't need to socket blue gems for metagem requirements, so you're really getting something like 6 agi and 8 hit in addition to the 24 attack power, which actually makes SSD somewhat competitive with TSD.

More to the point: the only situation where you *wouldn't* use RED would be it for some reason you can't get the metagem requirements for it... meaning you can't use TSD either. So there's absolutely no reason you would ever want to use TSD.

Of course, really, there's no reason not to just use RED, so I might just rephrase that section to have more of a "use RED. Period. Nothing else comes close" feel to it.

4) While we're nitpicking: with the posted stat weightings (which, honestly, feel a bit off to me in some places, but that's sort of a separate issue) rank Balanced Nightseye ahead of Shifting Nightseye for all gear levels. Now, clearly with Kings Shifting does come out ahead, but it might be worth noting that if one consistantly raids without Kings, and particularly at low gear levels, Balanced can be worth using as well as Shifting. You mention this for Hemo, but it applies to Combat s well.

5) While we're on the topic of stat weightings: am I correct in assuming that you made these stat estimates with very few AP buffs? Since, for instance, with the default gear in the 0.9.3 Gear Sheet (which is mid-to-high end T6), I get very different stat weightings:

Str: 1.1
Agi 2.3
Crit: 1.9
Hit: 2.64
Expertise: 2.9
Armor Pen: .33
Haste 2.26
Metagem: 102

Which is really pretty different than what you have posted. I suspect the answer is one of buffs, but I don't think the default buffs in the Gear sheet are *that* unreasonable for T6 guild, so... if you're posting extremely low-buff numbers, it might be worth making note of that fact; and I for one would recommend posting higher-buff numbers, since, lets be honest, how many rogues raid without Blessing of Might and Battle Shout, even if they don't have much else?

6) On Unique gems: I question the inclusion of the PvP crit rating gems; for many rogues, 10 crit is still inferior to 8 hit. Also note that as of 2.4, some of these gems will no longer be unique.

7) On totems: it might be worth noting that ret pallies in your group is almost a guarantee that you will get WF. It may additionally be worth saying a few words about totem twisting - that some shamans do it, basically. Fundamentally, the message here should probably be "Check if your shaman is using WF, and, if not, use IP MH".
#1290SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3malchar
I'd like to give a big thanks to the people who have contributed the knowledge collected in this thread. It is rather large, so I'm sorry if this has been discussed already. I'm wondering if there is any UI mod that someone would recommend that calculates and displays equivalence points in-game. Better yet, is there anything that will do the more complex spreadsheet calculations in-game?
I have found a few mods but they simply have preset eq values for stats or are out of date. I'd love to use the spreadsheets that have been developed but I don't have Excel. Either way, thanks for this great thread.
#1291SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Vulajin
1) You're correct that they're based on a particular set of gear and buffs. Specifically, the tier 4 rankings for each build also assume the same gear and buffs used to determine the tier 4 EP weights. It's likely that including two-digit decimal precision for the differences encourages more of a distinction between each build than can reasonably be made, since slight differences in buffs and gear may shift the relative rankings. I'll fix that up.

2) Fair enough, but I feel that the "minimum chance to miss melee attacks" and "minimum required level of hit" theories will never die out as long as idiots play this game.

3) Quite right, will be changed.

4) Also true, but rather than address this immediately I'll address the next point first.

5) The tier 4 EP weights definitely assume a rather different selection of buffs than the tier 5 and tier 6 ones. The tier 4 weights assume a set of buffs that a rogue might have in a 10-man raid; so there's no Blessing of Might (one paladin providing Salvation was assumed), but there is Battle Shout. There's assumed to be a shaman providing Windfury, but not Unleashed Rage. The tier 5 and tier 6 weights, on the other hand, assume a much stronger set of buffs, including Blessing of Might, Unleashed Rage, and Leader of the Pack. I considered adding Expose Weakness but I'm not sure if survival hunters are used by a representative majority of raiding guilds, even at tier 6.

As for why the weights differ so greatly from what your sheet suggests, I'm at a loss. I'll do some double-checking to make sure I haven't screwed anything up.

6) This is also likely related to issue number 5. Also, the 2.4 change is already noted in the section.

7) I'll tweak the section a bit.
#1292SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Aldriana
Oh, one other idea: it might simplify life for people to just list the top item or two for each slot at each level of gear, i.e., T4/Heroics, T5, and T6 (with ZA nontimed counting as either 4 or 5, and timed ZA as one tier higher). The EP system is certainly a better way of handling that in general, but just as a 15 second "what should I be going for" computation there might be some value.
#1293SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Arindelest
On Executioner vs Mongoose: You might want to add something saying that mob debuffs and the plethora of 6200 armor bosses at the T6 level influence Executioner's viability. At the moment you only mention passive armor penetration and procs (gear).
#1294SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3folderol
Originally Posted by Vulajin View Post
2) Fair enough, but I feel that the "minimum chance to miss melee attacks" and "minimum required level of hit" theories will never die out as long as idiots play this game.
On that specific subject, ever since I've become the tri-spec rogue for the raid, I've noticed that I now have quite consistently some misses on my Hemorrage attacks.
I'm at a loss to explain the miss rate since I raid with a hit rating close to 300 fully buffed.

Some parses:
Wow Web Stats
Wow Web Stats

This seems to be Hemo attack specific and still happens after 2.3.2.
Are there any theories on that or is it just yet another Hemo bug ?
#1295SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3koaschten
I just had to check your armory to see if you had maxed weapon skill to make sure, but this is definitly more than strange. You had 2 misses and a dodge in the more recent log. This shouldnt be able to happen with your 5/5 precision and 268 hit rating?! Gruul doesn't have a debuff that will increase your miss-rate.... totally lost there. I'd have to agree there that it looks either like a bug or an error in the WWS parsing. Do you have the original combatlog file somewhere?
#1296SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3folderol
Originally Posted by koaschten View Post
I just had to check your armory to see if you had maxed weapon skill to make sure, but this is definitly more than strange. You had 2 misses and a dodge in the more recent log. This shouldnt be able to happen with your 5/5 precision and 268 hit rating?! Gruul doesn't have a debuff that will increase your miss-rate.... totally lost there. I'd have to agree there that it looks either like a bug or an error in the WWS parsing. Do you have the original combatlog file somewhere?
I don't think I still have it but I can easily capture a new one tonight or next Tuesday.
I usually exprience 1-2% miss rate on Hemo per raid regardless of boss (it even happens on trash... )
#1297SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3koaschten
A clean WoWCombatLog.txt and a short post when you are shown with exact gear you used on the armory might give us more insight.
#1298SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3katheavus
hey guys someone on the rogue forums is claiming that a 5 snd 5 rupture rotation is better than anything else and he posted a wws and his damage is really good...what gives??

WoW Forums -> Dear: PVE Rogue gods,

i dont understand at all would appreciate an explanation
#1299SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
saedo
Originally Posted by katheavus View Post
hey guys someone on the rogue forums is claiming that a 5 snd 5 rupture rotation is better than anything else and he posted a wws and his damage is really good...what gives??

WoW Forums -> Dear: PVE Rogue gods,

i dont understand at all would appreciate an explanation

There's nothing all that surprising. From the looks of it, the WWS is of Teron and a high dps one so I assume it's a farm status full T6 group. At that level of gear SS scales to be better than doing Ruptures so 5s/5r is just fine.

Though, it's a bit weird to advocate it when it's a KZ level rogue asking about cycles and 2pc T4 bonus in that thread. At that level and gear, Rupture should be used more with the 1s/5r with T4.

To get exact cycles for your gear, plug them into your favorite neighborhood spreadsheet.

Last edited by saedo : 02/03/08 at 1:26 PM.
#1300SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3katheavus
Originally Posted by saedo View Post
There's nothing all that surprising. From the looks of it, the WWS is of Teron and a high dps one so I assume it's a farm status full T6 group. At that level of gear SS scales to be better than doing Ruptures so 5s/5r is just fine.

Though, it's a bit weird to advocate it when it's a KZ level rogue asking about cycles and 2pc T4 bonus in that thread. At that level and gear, Rupture should be used more with the 1s/5r with T4.

To get exact cycles for your gear, plug them into your favorite neighborhood spreadsheet.
yeah but...rupture is only 25 energy and sinister is 40...plus you have a good chance of getting a free combo point and an energy refund...
#1301SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Cos-
edit: oops wrong rogue
#1302SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Darkwyng
I was talking with another rogue on my server and he said I had "too much" hit rating compared to my AP/crit. Is there any validity to this statement? I currently have unbuffed 322 hit rating, 1712 attack power, and 22.67% crit. Like, is there some sort of mathematical "good" ratio to have?
#1303SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Latito
Originally Posted by Darkwyng View Post
I was talking with another rogue on my server and he said I had "too much" hit rating compared to my AP/crit. Is there any validity to this statement? I currently have unbuffed 322 hit rating, 1712 attack power, and 22.67% crit. Like, is there some sort of mathematical "good" ratio to have?
Until you have over 363 hit rating (including food, assuming precision and no imp faerie fire), you can never have "too much" hit rating. You CAN however make poor gear choices to stack hit to the exclusion of other stats. Pick the item with the highest dps, regardless of hit.

Use the spreadsheet, figure out whats best for you.
#1304SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Arindelest
Originally Posted by katheavus View Post
yeah but...rupture is only 25 energy and sinister is 40...plus you have a good chance of getting a free combo point and an energy refund...
By performing a longer cycle you are essentially trading Rupture damage for Sinister Strike damage. Since Sinister Strike scales better than Rupture, there is a point at which it becomes better to concentrate your energy using SS whenever possible (Read: running the longest possible cycle, 5s/5r).

I'm not sure what that inflection point is but you can clearly see this fact by looking at the value of 2pc T4 to a Karazhan-geared rogue vs a T6-geared rogue. The former will gain much more benefit, since his stats are lower, to doing additional Ruptures, while the guy in T6 will gain much less of a benefit from trading some SS damage for Rupture damage.
#1305SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Jakani
Originally Posted by katheavus View Post
yeah but...rupture is only 25 energy and sinister is 40...plus you have a good chance of getting a free combo point and an energy refund...
In fact, when doing 5 pt finishers, you will always get the refund. The reason 5s/5r is better at high gear levels is because you're spending 0 energy on finishers at the expense of a longer cycle (i.e. less rupture uptime). However, since SS scales better than rupture, when you reach higher gear levels, you're far better off spending most of your time SS'ing. But since a 5 pt rupture is free damage, you use it whenever you can.

Edit: Arindelest explained it better than I did.
#1306SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Aldriana
So, to be clear on the rupture vs SS debate:

When you do 5s5r, you are spending no energy whatsoever on finishers, as Relentless Strikes always gives a full refund. Hence all energy is being spent on SS.

When you do, say, 3s5r, on average you will spend 10 point of energy per cycle on finishers; hence, this is 10 energy not being spent on Sinister Strike. Hence, you are having fewer Sinister Strikes per unit time, in exchange for having a shorter cycle and thus higher rupture uptime. And all but the highest gear levels, the higher rupture uptime proves to be worth more damage than the Sinister Strikes, so the compressed cycle is better. However, at ultra-high gear levels - end T6 rogues with MH Warglaive and lots of raid buffs - the damage done by Sinister Strikes actually catches up to the Rupture damage, and 5s5r becomes the more damaging cycle.
#1307SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3folderol
Originally Posted by koaschten View Post
I just had to check your armory to see if you had maxed weapon skill to make sure, but this is definitly more than strange. You had 2 misses and a dodge in the more recent log. This shouldnt be able to happen with your 5/5 precision and 268 hit rating?! Gruul doesn't have a debuff that will increase your miss-rate.... totally lost there. I'd have to agree there that it looks either like a bug or an error in the WWS parsing. Do you have the original combatlog file somewhere?
I checked again the issue on yesterday's combat log and it appears to be a bug in WWS: all the miss listed for Hemorrage are actually parried in the combat log.
#1308SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Shaker
One other note - 5s/5r is a damn easy cycle to run and has enough slack that you can easily run it while being distracted and whatnot. In this sense, I'm advocating its use for raid leader or other rogues who have duties that require slighly less than 100% attention on noticing exactly when you get CPot procs and whatnot. I've been using 5s/5r (though now that I just got the Vashj belt, I'm getting a 2.9s/5r recommendation so I may have to switch .. :E) and it's been doing fine. I gain a slight amount of DPS by not falling out of a cycle that's hard to maintain when I'm swapping people's groups and trying to pan cameras around to see who's standing in Vashj BatPoo and stuff.
#1309SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3leebis
Latito I just noticed that on your last Gorefiend kill you didn't rupture. Were you testing a theory?

Wow Web Stats
#1310SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3leebis
Double post
#1311SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3hannigaholic
With regard to the 5s/5r discussion, the initial reason to adopt a 5s/5r cycle is simply that the gear which allows you to maintain 1s/5r becomes sufficiently worse than the gear that does not once you reach 4-piece T5 bonus, long before the issue of whether Rupture or SS is a better use of your energy becomes relevant.
#1312SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Herb
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
However, at ultra-high gear levels - end T6 rogues with MH Warglaive and lots of raid buffs - the damage done by Sinister Strikes actually catches up to the Rupture damage, and 5s5r becomes the more damaging cycle.
Rupture both has higher base DPE and scales better with AP than SS, at any attainable gear level. So replacing "Rupture uptime" with "SS uptime" cannot yield higher DPS.


Assuming a 2.8 speed, 109 dps weapon, 20% DR via armor, 50% crit

Rupture

1000 + 0.24 x AP = 1000.0 + 240.0 kAP @ 25e

	<--> DPE: 40.00 + 9.60 kAP


SS

(2.8 x 109 + 2.4 x 1/14 x AP + 98) x 122% x (50% + 50% x 2.30) x 80% = 649.3 + 276.1 kAP @ 40e

	<--> DPE: 16.23 + 6.90 kAP dpe


with

 - 122% as adding 4t6 = 6%, Aggression = 6%, and SA bonus = 10%
 - kAP as 1000 AP
(Note that Rupture scales better with AP even with 0% armor, and up to ~65% crit)
#1313SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Aerlyn
Hello all, I have been struggling lately on what rotation to use, according to the spreadsheet the suggest rotation would be 3s/5r, deciding to test that out, I went to the good old blasted lands and found myself a Servant of Allistarj to test the aforementioned rotation on. The outcomes left me puzzled, I have to admit I was sure to achieve some better results.
Recount tells me I averaged 953.6 dps on a lvl 55 mob, thus having the upperhand in terms of weapon skill vs monster defense skill. I was using IP MH and DP in OH, using the rotation (starting with SS activating SnD, getting to 3cp refreshing the SnD then all the way up to 5cp and rupture) I found myself unable to keep it for a long, there were times in which I was at 5 cp with my previous rupture still ticking and 9 seconds left, and times in which i had like 6 seconds left on SnD and only with 3 or 4 CPs. In order to keep the SnD always up and running I found myself relying a lot on combat potency procs (according to recount noone of my weapon swings missed) and ruthlessness ones. I had sporadically times in which with this rotation SnD was down, be them half second or 2-3 seconds long, before I had 3 cps in order to refresh it.
Now the question that comes to mind, If I cant' keep up that rotation against a lvl 55 monster thus getting the most out of talents like Combat Potency, I assume that against a lvl 73 raid boss the things can only get worst. Should I use a 3 or 4 cp rupture being the difference in ticks minimal, or the loss of the free finisher will make the situation even worst?

PS, I was unbuffed on this small test and did not used skills like Blade furry or AR, nor trinkets (BL brooch, Abacus).

Last edited by Aerlyn : 02/04/08 at 1:00 PM.
#1314SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Croll.Tvc
Greetings.. I got a question i want to know cuz its for me very weird to se this..

As we know in the lastest Patch Mace Spec have been changed To Crit chance just like fist weapons and it adds a stun effect.. now.. what i dont understand is..

How you can Get Fist+Sword spec and Combat Fist Spec to do more damage than Mace+sword and Combat Mace spec.?
as they are basicly the same spec.. only thing that changes it is that the mace spec add an xtra effect when you spec it.

Are you testing with same level weapons ? Fx. like pvp ones with same speed and stats ?

Tier 4:

1. Combat swords (--) / Combat fist+sword (-0.12%) / Combat daggers (-0.51%)
2. Combat fists (-1.10%) / Combat mace+sword (-1.80%)
3. Combat maces (-3.27%)
4. Hemo+swords (-5.06%) / Hemo+Combat Potency (swords) (-5.62%)



Tier 5:


1. Combat swords (--) / Combat fist+sword (-0.22%)
2. Combat mace+sword (-1.15%) / Combat fists (-1.45%) / Combat daggers (-1.49%)
3. Combat maces (-2.64%)
4. Hemo+swords (-4.95%)



Tier 6:


1. Combat swords (--) / Combat fist+sword (-0.29%) / Combat mace+sword (-0.93%)
2. Combat fists (-1.71%)
3. Combat maces (-2.52%)
4. Combat daggers (-3.16%)


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So here we are with my final question.

I just want to know the fact behind that fists dos more damage than mace's after the revamp in the Mace spec talant ?

Regards
Croll
#1315SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Giske
Mace spec is not crit chance, its increased critical damage done.
#1316SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Melnor
Originally Posted by Croll.Tvc View Post
Greetings.. I got a question i want to know cuz its for me very weird to se this..

As we know in the lastest Patch Mace Spec have been changed To Crit chance just like fist weapons and it adds a stun effect.. now.. what i dont understand is..

How you can Get Fist+Sword spec and Combat Fist Spec to do more damage than Mace+sword and Combat Mace spec.?
as they are basicly the same spec.. only thing that changes it is that the mace spec add an xtra effect when you spec it.
Just to clarify, Mace spec is a +% modifier to critical strike damage, not an increase to your critical strike chance.
#1317SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Croll.Tvc
allRight something i have overseen.. good good thanks for point this out.. :-) /cheer
#1318SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Latito
Originally Posted by leebis View Post
Latito I just noticed that on your last Gorefiend kill you didn't rupture. Were you testing a theory?

Wow Web Stats
An excellent observation. Also note the complete lack of prot warrior in the raid (intentional), the Expose Armor debuff on Gorefiend and my 2/2 Imp Expose Armor talent selection.

I lose marginal personal dps, all other physical dps (3 hunters, 1 other rogue, 2 dps warrior, 2 cats, bear MT, 2 enhancement shams, 1 ret pally.. we stacked melee....) get a 2-4% dps boost over sunder. If you dig REALLY deep you'll even notice that he parried an Expose Armor - wow did that throw me.

Good find tho Flateous and I try and take turns doing Imp EA each week, if he's able to make this weeks Teron, I'm shooting for 2500 dps (just got 4pc T6). Definitely worth having 1 rogue do Imp EA if you don't have a prot warrior in the raid, probably still well worth it with a prot warrior dps'ing on a single-tank boss.
#1319SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Hanos
Originally Posted by koaschten View Post
Out of curiosity, is there a meta gem that requires 2 blue 4 red which i am not aware of? Unless there is, you use two red gems for... nothing?
Typo, I meant 2 Purple, 2 Orange and the rest yellow. As far as I know the 2 Purples can't fulfill both the 2 Blue and 2 Red Requirement for Relentless Earthstorm.

[quote=cmecu;622768]Thanks again hanos. I am heading to area 52 right now , because my off hand is something i can take care of right now. I was thinking , should i stay sword offhand, or get the offhand fist, that way i can spend the sword points else where , like Vile poisons maybe ? would that be higher dps , or staying fist sword.

Get the sword! Looking at your amory it looks like you already did. There is a very good sword, that drops very frequently from the second boss in Hyjal, however there is no Fist weapons in T6. The OH sword will serve you well with both a fist or sword MH, the OH fist will be worse then the sword in every situation.

I am not sure how else i can import my armory unless i buy excel .. any help with that ?
Thank you.
Just use the drop down menus and fill it in manually, it is what we have been doing for the last 2 years anyway. For each item there is a drop down box where you can select the item you have.

Originally Posted by Darkwyng View Post
I was talking with another rogue on my server and he said I had "too much" hit rating compared to my AP/crit. Is there any validity to this statement? I currently have unbuffed 322 hit rating, 1712 attack power, and 22.67% crit. Like, is there some sort of mathematical "good" ratio to have?
No, odds are he is an idiot. As others have said, you can't have too much hit until you go over 363, however, you can make stupid gearing decisions like using [Socrethar's Girdle] over [Belt of One-Hundred Deaths], because you would lose hit. Basically if you are using the best items available to you and gemming for hit, you will be fine, if you are not using better items because you would lose hit, that could be an issue. A low crit rating isn't a bad thing and isn't uncommon with swords, you really don't start to see higher crit rates until late T5 or T6 (when you can't avoid it on gear).

Originally Posted by leebis View Post
Latito I just noticed that on your last Gorefiend kill you didn't rupture. Were you testing a theory?

Wow Web Stats
That parse is "interesting", I am more curious how he managed to vanish 2 items in a 2:26 fight, but yeah, the lack of Rupture or any finisher other then S&D makes me think there is something wrong with the parse.
#1320SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3flaminghomer
Originally Posted by Hanos View Post
As far as I know the 2 Purples can't fulfill both the 2 Blue and 2 Red Requirement for Relentless Earthstorm.
Yes they can.
#1321SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3halfpint
Originally Posted by Vulajin View Post
Tier 4 EP    |   ...   | 11/21/29 
Strength     |   ...   |   1.00   
Agility      |   ...   |   1.78   
Atk. Power   |   ...   |   1.00   
Hit Rating   |   ...   |   1.87   
Crit Rating  |   ...   |   1.42   
Exp. Rating  |   ...   |   2.20   
Haste Rating |   ...   |   1.72   
Armor Pen.   |   ...   |   0.24   
Meta Gem     |   ...
Does the 4 points in deadliness change the Atk. Power ep to 1.08? If that is the case, then doesn't that influence the strength and agility values also?

Also as a feature request, can you add a column for a shadowstep build? I'm mostly interested in seeing the ep weights with sinister calling and deadliness and how they compare to all the other builds.
#1322SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3royaljester
I'm wanting to get some WWS parses of soem of my guilds fights going and just thought to myself, "Everyone says the wws and recap/recount/swstats will be diff". Anyone know how far off wws parses are from most dmg meters? I normally run SWStats and have yet to see any of our locks/rogues (even with glaive OH) parse 2700dps for gorefiend. Then, I look at the site and see hundreds of rogues parsing that with sub 3:30 gorefiend fights. Thoughts, ideas?
#1323SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Aldriana
Originally Posted by Herb View Post
Rupture both has higher base DPE and scales better with AP than SS, at any attainable gear level. So replacing "Rupture uptime" with "SS uptime" cannot yield higher DPS.


Assuming a 2.8 speed, 109 dps weapon, 20% DR via armor, 50% crit

Rupture

1000 + 0.24 x AP = 1000.0 + 240.0 kAP @ 25e

	<--> DPE: 40.00 + 9.60 kAP


SS

(2.8 x 109 + 2.4 x 1/14 x AP + 98) x 122% x (50% + 50% x 2.30) x 80% = 649.3 + 276.1 kAP @ 40e

	<--> DPE: 16.23 + 6.90 kAP dpe


with

 - 122% as adding 4t6 = 6%, Aggression = 6%, and SA bonus = 10%
 - kAP as 1000 AP
(Note that Rupture scales better with AP even with 0% armor, and up to ~65% crit)
Rupture does scale better than Sinister Strike by itself, and if we were talking about swapping out Sinister Strikes for 5 point Ruptures directly, you'd be right. However, the situation is slightly more sophisticated than that, since we're trading SS damage for a slightly shorter cycle which thus implicitly increases rupture uptime; hence, there's a weighting factor that aids Sinister Strike in this matter. I'm not going to go through absolutely all the details (you can find them in the spreadsheet if you want them, which demonstrates this effect rather clearly), but the gist of it is as follows:

A 3s5r cycle requires 6.8 SS and 1 Rupture, which costs a total of 282 energy. Using your numbers, a Rupture does 1000 + .24 * AP damage, and a Sinister Strike 649.3 + .2761 * AP. Thus, the 6.8 SS + 1 Rupture of 3s5r do a total of 5415 + 2.12 * AP damage. Dividing by 282 gives the DPE of this cycle component as 19.2 + 7.52 kAP.

A 5s5r cycle requires 8.8 SS and 1 Rupture, which costs a total of 352 energy. Again with your numbers, these attacks do a totalk of 6714 + 2.67 AP * damage. Dividing by 352 we find that the DPE of this cycle component is 19.1 + 7.59 kAP.

Equating these two, we find the crossover point occurs at 1900 AP; that is, under 1900 AP, 3s5r has better DPE; over 1900 AP, 5s5r has better DPE.

Now, of course, the stats you specify are a bit unrealistic even for a full T6 rogue, so in reality the breakpoint is usually a bit higher than this; but as a raid-buffed T6 rogue can easily have 3k AP with 40%+ crit and 500 ArPen, it is very much possible to get to the point where 5s5r catches up with 3s5r.

Originally Posted by Hanos View Post
That parse is "interesting", I am more curious how he managed to vanish 2 items in a 2:26 fight, but yeah, the lack of Rupture or any finisher other then S&D makes me think there is something wrong with the parse.
Pretty sure the 2xVanish thing is an artifact of the way vanishes are logged; if you watch the combat log, you get two separate Vanish messages, "You cast Vanish" and "You gain Vanish" (or something like that) - one for the actual spell, and one for the resulting buff. WWS isn't smart enough to track this, so all vanishes show up as two vanishes.
#1324SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Latito
Look at any WWS parse - it records vanish twice.
Wow Web Stats
Wow Web Stats
Wow Web Stats
or even YOUR wws, Hanos: Wow Web Stats ;P

And as mentioned (I'm sure you were writing your post as I posted mine).. I was on EA duty.
Wow Web Stats
Yep.. he parried my EA. Let EA drop for like 4 seconds when the parry happened, completely wasn't expecting my finisher to not.. finish (we're all spoiled by Surprise attacks I guess, damn those "boss spin around instant cast" spells). Let EA drop again later in the fight for ~0.4 sec after some really crappy Combat Potency and ruthlessness procs.

Also, seconding the "2 purples work just fine for RED". Check my armory, I have 1 orange (Shadowmaster boots bonus) and 2 purple (shoulder and chest). RED works just fine.

Last edited by Latito : 02/04/08 at 1:22 PM.
#1325SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Grunge
Originally Posted by Latito View Post
Wow Web Stats
Yep.. he parried my EA. Let EA drop for like 4 seconds when the parry happened, completely wasn't expecting my finisher to not.. finish (we're all spoiled by Surprise attacks I guess, damn those "boss spin around instant cast" spells). Let EA drop again later in the fight for ~0.4 sec after some really crappy Combat Potency and ruthlessness procs.
By the way what kind of a rotation were you using? 5snd/5ea?
#1326SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Hanos
Originally Posted by Latito View Post
Look at any WWS parse - it records vanish twice.
Wow Web Stats
Wow Web Stats
Wow Web Stats
or even YOUR wws, Hanos: Wow Web Stats ;P

And as mentioned (I'm sure you were writing your post as I posted mine).. I was on EA duty.
Wow Web Stats
Yep.. he parried my EA. Let EA drop for like 4 seconds when the parry happened, completely wasn't expecting my finisher to not.. finish (we're all spoiled by Surprise attacks I guess, damn those "boss spin around instant cast" spells). Let EA drop again later in the fight for ~0.4 sec after some really crappy Combat Potency and ruthlessness procs.

Also, seconding the "2 purples work just fine for RED". Check my armory, I have 1 orange (Shadowmaster boots bonus) and 2 purple (shoulder and chest). RED works just fine.
Wow, today is a day for new discoveries. I always assumed that the gem would count as one or the other, but not both, now I get to try to convince my GM to give me a couple more Lionseyes instead of selling them on the AH.

Also, I had never noticed the double counting of Vanish.

Out of curiosity, why were you doing EA, as opposed to having the DPS Warrior sunder?
#1327SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3katheavus
okay thanks guys

so how do you do a 5snd 5 rup rotation?

get SND up...sinister up to 5 points...pool energy...SND before your first SND runs out then spam SS to points, rupture, then spam SS...pool energy..and SND before it runs out?
do you keep spamming SS even when u have 5 combo points? a little confused about htis
#1328SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Shaker
Originally Posted by Hanos View Post
Out of curiosity, why were you doing EA, as opposed to having the DPS Warrior sunder?
As he said, he took 2/2 Imp EA (which fully talented is better than sunder) - probably trying to trick out as much DPS as possible.
#1329SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Hanos
Originally Posted by royaljester View Post
I'm wanting to get some WWS parses of soem of my guilds fights going and just thought to myself, "Everyone says the wws and recap/recount/swstats will be diff". Anyone know how far off wws parses are from most dmg meters? I normally run SWStats and have yet to see any of our locks/rogues (even with glaive OH) parse 2700dps for gorefiend. Then, I look at the site and see hundreds of rogues parsing that with sub 3:30 gorefiend fights. Thoughts, ideas?
I don't know about hundreds, you have to stack the hell out of a group, hit them with heroisms, drums, etc to break 2500, breaking 2700 is even tougher. WWS will be higher then SWS/Recap/Recount, because it does individual calculations for time in combat, whereas the rest are based on the raids time in combat (to some degree). You aren't going to see 2700 DPS individuals on a 3:30 kill unless you hit that group with every heroism in the raid.

To get 2700 you are going to have to be well under 3 mins for the most part, unless you know something I don't. However, please link all of these 2700 DPS parses, because I am seeing a couple people just over 2700 in the top 10 or so, but never more then 1 per raid, and in the case of rogues they are all MH Warglaive rogues with Dragonspines (which on the other hand makes me feel pretty good about my 2583 last week without either).
#1330SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3royaljester
See, I think my best on that fight is like 1900ish (before I got 4pc, some off set peices and when our ms warrior was still...well ms) and I thought I was doign fairly well. Now, that includes a shaman, 3 rogues, an MS warrior (BF and imp shout--no sapphire). We normally get 2 heros, sometimes 3 if we're lucky and I think I was still near the top with a lock barely beating me. Good to know that WWS will probably show a difference in dps, I guess I need to test it out and see what happens.
#1331SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Latito
Yep. There really isn't any other valid rotation - you can't "increase your ea uptime" like you can with rupture. All you could possibly do is squeak in an extra small rupture once in a fight that length.

In such a short fight, my main goal is just to get EA up as FAST as possible - I burn AR 5-10 sec into the fight to get EA up as soon as possible. The slightly smaller SS's I get by burning AR while Teron has higher armor is easily compensated by the massive gains all the physical dps gets by having EA up sooner. I typically go with:
Garrote, SS, SnD, SS, AR, SS to 5 CP, EA.
This is where I either get lucky or it gets tight. If I proc'd ruthlessness, I'm ok. If I got a few combat potency procs, I'm fine. If neither happened - I'm generally around 2 seconds left on SnD with no combo points. Either way.. I SnD as soon as I can in the bad case, or as late as I can in the good case (2-3 combo point SnD, refreshing at the last second).

At that point I have ~25-30 seconds on EA and ~13-21 seconds on SnD. I generally go for a 3-5 second SnD at this point, making sure I leave enough time after I hit it to get 5 points up for EA. I find doing SnD with around 15 sec left on EA is generally ok. Given the previous 25-30 seconds on EA, this means I have 10-15 sec to get my 3-5 combo points for SnD.

After that I can slide into a much more comfortable 5s/5ea cycle for the remainder of the fight.. all 60 seconds of it *sigh*.

Edit: I'm several posts behind.. taking me 30 min to write stuff cause I'm at work :P
#1332SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Vulajin
Originally Posted by halfpint View Post
Does the 4 points in deadliness change the Atk. Power ep to 1.08? If that is the case, then doesn't that influence the strength and agility values also?

Also as a feature request, can you add a column for a shadowstep build? I'm mostly interested in seeing the ep weights with sinister calling and deadliness and how they compare to all the other builds.
To your first question, no, because 1 EP is defined as the DPS contribution provided by 1 point of AP on a piece of gear for your particular spec. Whether you have Deadliness or not, that 1 point of AP provides a certain amount of DPS contribution. By definition, 1 AP cannot provide more than 1 EP regardless of talents.

To your second question, absolutely not. Shadowstep is an inferior build regardless of your gear or weapons. Even if you are fixated on speccing Hemo to provide the debuff, you are better off speccing Hemo+swords if you have swords, or Hemo+Deadliness if you have a different weapon type. There is no reason to ever spec Shadowstep for PvE.
#1333SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Hanos
Originally Posted by royaljester View Post
See, I think my best on that fight is like 1900ish (before I got 4pc, some off set peices and when our ms warrior was still...well ms) and I thought I was doign fairly well. Now, that includes a shaman, 3 rogues, an MS warrior (BF and imp shout--no sapphire). We normally get 2 heros, sometimes 3 if we're lucky and I think I was still near the top with a lock barely beating me. Good to know that WWS will probably show a difference in dps, I guess I need to test it out and see what happens.
If you are at 1900, WWS isn't going to show you at 2500 or 2700 for Teron, odds are you guys simply aren't killing him fast enough to see those kind of numbers (the value of Heroism increases significantly the shorter the fight). Last week WWS showed me at 2563 for Teron, SWS and Recount were at around 2530. The only time you are going to have significant differences between WWS and in-game meters is when you aren't attacking and other members of the raid are (Illidan and Supremus are good examples of this). On Teron, odds are you are attacking from a couple seconds after the pull until he dies, so your DPS time is very close to the raid combat time.

If you are looking to get a 2500 DPS Parse you really need to get well under 3 mins for the kill, which means you need to raid committed to buffing. Stacking Drums, Heroism (probably need 2 of them), and chaining haste pots will also help. Ideally you want a Survival Hunter, a MS Warrior, CoR, FF, 5x Sunder (or talented EA), as well as full buffs. Beyond that it is just DPS like hell.
#1334SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
halfpint
Originally Posted by Vulajin View Post
To your first question, no, because 1 EP is defined as the DPS contribution provided by 1 point of AP on a piece of gear for your particular spec. Whether you have Deadliness or not, that 1 point of AP provides a certain amount of DPS contribution. By definition, 1 AP cannot provide more than 1 EP regardless of talents.

To your second question, absolutely not. Shadowstep is an inferior build regardless of your gear or weapons. Even if you are fixated on speccing Hemo to provide the debuff, you are better off speccing Hemo+swords if you have swords, or Hemo+Deadliness if you have a different weapon type. There is no reason to ever spec Shadowstep for PvE.
Hmm, wasn't saying anything about a fixation.

I frequently point questions from rogue alts to this thread, as it is a very good source of info. I was just asking for the table to be filled out for the other spec (I would have requested mutilate also. I just noticed it was missing too). I thought it was a table that objectively stated stat weights between the various specs. I missed the original intention of only comparing feasible specs as defined earlier in your post. Thank you for responding.

Last edited by halfpint : 02/04/08 at 6:30 PM.
#1335SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Vulajin
Originally Posted by halfpint View Post
Hmm, wasn't saying anything about a fixation.

I frequently point questions from rogue alts to this thread, as it is a very good source of info. I was just asking for the table to be filled out for the other spec (I would have requested mutilate also. I just noticed it was missing too). I thought it was a table that objectively stated stat weights between the various specs. I missed the original intention of only comparing feasible specs as defined earlier in your post. Thank you for responding.
I should instead put it this way: the purpose of the post is to help any rogue improve his or her DPS. So that's obviously the intent of the EP weights, to help rogues make informed gear choices to improve their DPS. However, by far the greatest piece of advice I could give a Shadowstep rogue would be to respec something else. As a result, including further information for Shadowstep rogues beyond that is pretty much unnecessary.

Mutilate is missing primariily because we don't really have a good source for Mutilate DPS or gearing info beyond empirical evidence. We're reasonably confident that Mutilate is inferior to combat daggers, hence why a great deal of effort hasn't been expended towards creating better models of Mutilate DPS.
#1336SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Arnan
Now, I honestly hate to ask this question (Mostly because I am quite certain what the answer will be), but:

I have for quite some time been told by a whole load of rogues that 169 hit rating is "the optimal amount". I've searched far and wide for an explanation to this claim but seems to be lost - All I can get from them (And there's loads of them on Earthen Ring) is that after 169 hit starts to be worth less and crit would be better to invest in.

I assume that there's some historical reason (Like 169 being max hit before burning crusade, when I weren't playing), but i f there is no such reason, I would be delighted to know the explanation - I have only been in group with said rogues once or twice, but as they largely outgeared me at the time, it was hard to do any reasonable comparison.

The whole question might be a complete bother or just sentimental, but I would like to know (If for nothing else, then for the sake of knowledge itself) - If I can improve in any way I would rather like that!
#1337SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Latito
Originally Posted by Arnan View Post
Now, I honestly hate to ask this question (Mostly because I am quite certain what the answer will be), but:

I have for quite some time been told by a whole load of rogues that 169 hit rating is "the optimal amount". I've searched far and wide for an explanation to this claim but seems to be lost - All I can get from them (And there's loads of them on Earthen Ring) is that after 169 hit starts to be worth less and crit would be better to invest in.

I assume that there's some historical reason (Like 169 being max hit before burning crusade, when I weren't playing), but i f there is no such reason, I would be delighted to know the explanation - I have only been in group with said rogues once or twice, but as they largely outgeared me at the time, it was hard to do any reasonable comparison.

The whole question might be a complete bother or just sentimental, but I would like to know (If for nothing else, then for the sake of knowledge itself) - If I can improve in any way I would rather like that!
Your entire server seems to be saturated with idiots. There is no optimal hit rating. Its not 100, its not 200, its not 300.. there just is no optimal amount. In fact, generally speaking hit becomes BETTER then more of it you have. This is due largely to WF and to a lesser extent sword spec, both of which require a landed attack to proc another attack.

169 hit rating is in fact quite low and almost difficult to achieve in anywhere near reasonable gear. Don't pick gear based on the hit rating it has (or doesn't have...). Pick gear based on what does more DPS. Hit is a good stat, and you should be (generally) gemming for it - but it is NOT the only stat.
#1338SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Kagekami
Weird

I'm quite puzzled by those statements. Anyone who has read and understood this thread would easily be able to tell them otherwise. I'm thinking that they are just basing this off some weird fluke that made them do more dps with this particular number, and they consider it "magic" now.

the other foundation I could think of for it would be that they'd assume you get less return on hit rating once your specials are hitcapped at 9% (142 rating w/o precision). The number is a bit off, but it's viable. not sure why they wouldn't include precision in the calculation though.

Short answer:
Their statement is complete and utter rubbish, and hit continues to be an excellent stat all the way up until 363 rating (with precision) whereafter it is all but useless.

(Like others have pointed out; bear in mind that hit is not the panacea to rogue dps, and you should consider the total dps of an equipment piece, and not just the hit rating. I myself have a slightly low hitrating, but this is mostly due to wearing the vastly superior Shadowtooth Trollskin Cuirass over for example Conniver's (one of the few others available to me at our progression level))
#1339SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Fenwick
I have a question or two here about trinket/ability timing, namely when to start busting them out during a fight.

Normally on a boss, I sit back and wait for the tank to hit 5k threat before doing anything (I'm not even auto-attacking, simply sitting and waiting). Once the tank hits that marker, I hop in SS once, SnD, then pop Abacus + Haste Pot + Blade Flurry + AR. The timing on it works well with regard to cooldowns, as on a standard fight I can get in 2-3 of my 2min CD's and an extra AR if the fight runs long. Lately it gives me threat problems with our weaker tanks and leads me to an early vanish and having to back off late in the fight, but I'm getting better at curtailing my trinkets/abilities when I know the tank will have problems with me.

So, my questions. First, would it be better to wait on popping my cooldowns a little bit longer into the fight until, say, I've run one full 1s/5r cycle? This should give the tank a little more time to take a threat lead and keep me from an early vanish and late back-off. Second, should I split the use of AR off of the rest, as in wait to pop it until the other abilities have run their course?

The main reason I pop things right away now is to get as many uses of each ability, trinket and potion per fight as possible. For some reason lately, though, I seem to be having issues building too much threat too early. Most of the time it is on our weaker tanks that are subbing in on a fight, but from time to time I even catch our great tanks as well. Nothing has changed on my end, no changes to rotations, haven't gotten a gear upgrade in months. So I'm overall just curious if there's a better timing for my cooldown use to 1) increase DPS and/or 2) manage my threat better. And, of course, I realize that I may not be able to mutually do both 1 and 2.
#1340SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3dinesh
Originally Posted by Hanos View Post
Out of curiosity, why were you doing EA, as opposed to having the DPS Warrior sunder?
Some earlier discussions about it:

[RAID] Boss armor values

Devastate Testing - 25 October - TheorySpot

Basically, it might theoretically be useful with a prot warrior if there is no real danger of threat capping. But it is much more likely to be useful with no prot tanks, as was the case here.
#1341SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Macabrie
Fenwick

I would say that you should hold off on using AR until after your trinket/BF have run their cycle, and you have started your first 1s/5r cycle. This will allow you to start dpsing when the tank is at 3.5-4k threat, as well as allow for the tank to get a little further ahead before you start making your tps go crazy.

You shouldn't catch your tank until you are about to use your second AR, in which case you will want to vanish just before using it.
I personally make sure that I vanish just after a 5r, then garrote and use a 1s just before using AR. During the AR, since I already have a 5r ticking, I will use the first 5cp for evisc. and use the second 5cp for another rupture. I usually have enough time at the end to ss if ruthlessness didn't proc so that I can keep SnD up without letting it drop.

Using this I am always able to keep Rupture and SnD up for the duration of a boss fight, with ease.

If you're having to back off on dps later in the fight it is a problem with your tanks tps.
#1342SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Hanos
Originally Posted by Arnan View Post
Now, I honestly hate to ask this question (Mostly because I am quite certain what the answer will be), but:

I have for quite some time been told by a whole load of rogues that 169 hit rating is "the optimal amount". I've searched far and wide for an explanation to this claim but seems to be lost - All I can get from them (And there's loads of them on Earthen Ring) is that after 169 hit starts to be worth less and crit would be better to invest in.

I assume that there's some historical reason (Like 169 being max hit before burning crusade, when I weren't playing), but i f there is no such reason, I would be delighted to know the explanation - I have only been in group with said rogues once or twice, but as they largely outgeared me at the time, it was hard to do any reasonable comparison.

The whole question might be a complete bother or just sentimental, but I would like to know (If for nothing else, then for the sake of knowledge itself) - If I can improve in any way I would rather like that!
As others have said already, your friends are idiots, reread the first post of this thread for more info. Basically if you stick to items designed for rogues, pick the highest item level ones, and then gem for hit/socket bonus/meta requirements (aka getting 4 more AP isn't worth using 2 purples and losing out on the equivalent of 16 AP or more), as long as you don't go over 363, with a standard combat build hit is going to be the most valuable stat point for point that you can get. Mutilate and Deep Sub Agility can be as valuable to slightly more but that is all covered elsewhere.

I want to say 19.6% with precision was the cap before the expansion, but as gear choices were FAR more limited you really didn't have a ton of choices (aka you had your set, AQ Gear or your next tier set), which would have been 196, however it came in increments of 10 so I have no idea where 169 comes from other then someone being a complete idiot or intentionally screwing with people (which has been known to happen "Hey, you want to do crazy raid DPS, go 0/0/61 and max out your Strength, IT'S A SECRET).

Originally Posted by Fenwick View Post
I have a question or two here about trinket/ability timing, namely when to start busting them out during a fight.

Normally on a boss, I sit back and wait for the tank to hit 5k threat before doing anything (I'm not even auto-attacking, simply sitting and waiting). Once the tank hits that marker, I hop in SS once, SnD, then pop Abacus + Haste Pot + Blade Flurry + AR. The timing on it works well with regard to cooldowns, as on a standard fight I can get in 2-3 of my 2min CD's and an extra AR if the fight runs long. Lately it gives me threat problems with our weaker tanks and leads me to an early vanish and having to back off late in the fight, but I'm getting better at curtailing my trinkets/abilities when I know the tank will have problems with me.
It would help to know what content this refers to, because I don't know about you, but we use Misdirects, and the tank normally has 5k threat as soon as he reaches the mob. However, generally you don't want to use cooldowns until all the debuffs are applied, so that you get the maximum benefit out of them. Based on your gear it looks like you are in T5 Content, so I would open up with SS, S&D, 5pt Rupture, SS, S&D, then blow your cooldowns, if this would put you over the threat cap (110%), then do another cycle first and make sure all the debuffs are up (Sunder, CoR, Faerie Fire, Mangle, etc.). Vanish at 75-80% of the bosses health, and you should have a very hard time catching back up to the tank. If you need to weave in a couple feigns to prevent energy capping or pulling aggro do it.

Also, what fights are you having issues on? For example in T5 Morogrim the tank is typically going to start slow and then build up, since he is a little rage starved until the big hits start coming regularly (gets a debuff that slows attack speed and thus Heroic/Auto Attacks). Hydross also hits like a girl until he starts getting stacked up. Generally in T5 you are going to have to hold back a little more on some fights early on due to the mechanics. You are better off starting slow, weaving feigns (not something I generally recommend), then you are not attacking and then jumping in and blowing all your CDs.
#1343SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Icos
One question I have is how long should I be wearing the t4 2pc ? I'm currently 3/5 t5 (legs gloves shoulders) but I only wear gloves as I need the legs for the 2pc t4 (I only have chest and legs of t4) and I have shoulderpads of the Stranger. Would it be better for me to switch to the t5 legs?


I guess the real question I have is how valuable in terms of DPS should we consider the 2pc bonus?


EDIT: Clarification

Last edited by Icos : 02/05/08 at 2:25 PM.
#1344SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Hanos
Originally Posted by Icos View Post
One question I have is how long should I be wearing the t4 2pc ? I'm currently 3/5 t5 (legs gloves shoulders) but I only wear gloves as I need the legs for the 2pc t4 (I only have chest and legs of t4) and I have shoulderpads of the Stranger. Would it be better for me to switch to the t5 legs?


I guess the real question I have is how valuable in terms of DPS should we consider the 2pc bonus?


EDIT: Clarification
If only there was a spreadsheet to answer difficult questions like this...

General rule (may not apply based on gear, group set up, buffs, debuffs, consumable, phase of the moon, etc):
Wear 2/5 T4 until you can get 4/5 T5
Wear 4/5 T5 until you can get 2/5 T6
Wear 2/5 T6 until you can get 4/5 T6 (ok just too lines didn't look like enough general rules)
Wear 4/5 T6 until you can get more DPS from Sunwell Loot.

Easier answer plug it into the spreadsheet. There are some cases where you are better off breaking 2/4 T4 due to the fact that the T5 gloves are a huge upgrade. My guess is Shoulderpads of the Stranger, T5 Gloves, T4 Legs and Chest is going to be your best bet, but plug it into the Spreadsheet and find out.
#1345SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Icos
I think part of the issue I have with the sheet is it assumes we never evis. Even in tank and spanks theres a point where we will evisc/envenom. Granted the t5 2pc doesn't make a difference in your overall DPS for those last few finishers you toss @ 1%, but its still something. Another good example is the vashj fight, where killing elementals we constantly evisc, and on nagas we evisc near the end of their health as well. The spreadsheet doesn't however take any of this into account, and as such does not give the 2pc t5 any DPS value whatsoever. It seems to me to be a bit of over-theorycrafting, and not thinking enough in reality.

Running the numbers for myself, I come up with a less than 8 DPS change from swapping over to vengeful glad's tunic/deathmantle legguards from the 2 peices of nightblade. Also, does the sheet take stamina into account? More specifically the Open Office version, as thats the one I'm currently using. A dead rogue doesn't do any DPS, so I would think that stamina would have some value. Not much, but I would think it would at last weigh it somewhat.
#1346SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Fenwick
Originally Posted by Hanos View Post
It would help to know what content this refers to, because I don't know about you, but we use Misdirects, and the tank normally has 5k threat as soon as he reaches the mob. However, generally you don't want to use cooldowns until all the debuffs are applied, so that you get the maximum benefit out of them. Based on your gear it looks like you are in T5 Content, so I would open up with SS, S&D, 5pt Rupture, SS, S&D, then blow your cooldowns, if this would put you over the threat cap (110%), then do another cycle first and make sure all the debuffs are up (Sunder, CoR, Faerie Fire, Mangle, etc.). Vanish at 75-80% of the bosses health, and you should have a very hard time catching back up to the tank. If you need to weave in a couple feigns to prevent energy capping or pulling aggro do it.

Also, what fights are you having issues on? For example in T5 Morogrim the tank is typically going to start slow and then build up, since he is a little rage starved until the big hits start coming regularly (gets a debuff that slows attack speed and thus Heroic/Auto Attacks). Hydross also hits like a girl until he starts getting stacked up. Generally in T5 you are going to have to hold back a little more on some fights early on due to the mechanics. You are better off starting slow, weaving feigns (not something I generally recommend), then you are not attacking and then jumping in and blowing all your CDs.
As far as content, yes, we're on T5 working on downing Vashj (which becomes rough when you have some people that can't ever seem to follow directions). Specific fights would indeed be Morogrim, and every once in a while on Hydross, and we do use Misdirects. I had a hell of a time managing threat on Morogrim last week for some reason. Had to do him twice due to a healing mistake, and the first attempt I overran the tank within about 15-20sec. On the second attempt, I decided to slow down and waited for a complete 1s/5r cycle to do anything. Then I popped only my haste CD's but not AR, and within about 20sec I had to vanish because I caught the tank again. I've never had problems like that before on Morogrim, and I didn't change my approach from previous attempts.

I suppose scaling back at the start of the fight might be in order for me, both for threat reasons and other ones that you mentioned (full debuffs applied) that I stupidly hadn't thought about. One more question, though. You mentioned vanishing at roughly 80% of the mob's health. Is there a specific advantage to doing this as opposed to waiting to vanish until you're closer to threat capping? Generally on fights where it doesn't matter who's secondary on the threat list, I try to ride my tank as close as possible before vanishing. Or should 80% generally be when I end up catching the tank anyway?
#1347SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Dontmindme
A few things regarding the DPS Spreadsheet...
If you want Evis numbers you can easily turn Rupturable off in the options to the right of the Talents on the Talent page. This option is there for a reason...

Stamina is given zero weight in the DPS Spreadsheet. As your gear improves, you get a fair amount of stamina anyway. Play your character correctly and I can think of no reason one should get killed. Besides, what's 10 Stamina anyway? 100 health? How often have you screwed up and asked, "if I only had 100 more health?" I think it's entirely more common to experience (so tank dies), hmm..."if only I had 600 more Stamina, I could have survived that 17k crushing."

Now, I'm not saying it's 0 value, but with proper play, it shouldn't really come into question especially since upper level gear tends to have a fair amount of inherent Stamina. Regardless, the value of Stamina is not DPS. You can look at the DPS numbers in the box at the top. Also up top one can look at one's health. You certainly have the option of switching gear around to add health while minimizing DPS loss. The sheet is there to be used as you wish it to be. There are many options and I'm sure people use it in different ways.
#1348SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Hanos
Originally Posted by Fenwick View Post
As far as content, yes, we're on T5 working on downing Vashj (which becomes rough when you have some people that can't ever seem to follow directions). Specific fights would indeed be Morogrim, and every once in a while on Hydross, and we do use Misdirects. I had a hell of a time managing threat on Morogrim last week for some reason. Had to do him twice due to a healing mistake, and the first attempt I overran the tank within about 15-20sec. On the second attempt, I decided to slow down and waited for a complete 1s/5r cycle to do anything. Then I popped only my haste CD's but not AR, and within about 20sec I had to vanish because I caught the tank again. I've never had problems like that before on Morogrim, and I didn't change my approach from previous attempts.
As far as Morogrim goes, yes if you open up with all your cooldowns right away you are going to have issues, read up on the mechanics of the fight some more to understand why your tank's threat is going to suck at first, same with Hydross for the reasons I mention, Hydross wait until you have 15 seconds before the switch to use your CD's. Also, as you tank gears up, Morogrim will start off even slower due to dodge/parry strings. Don't plan to use CD's on Morogrim until around 90% or so, to give your tank time to get a lead and to start generating consistent threat.

I suppose scaling back at the start of the fight might be in order for me, both for threat reasons and other ones that you mentioned (full debuffs applied) that I stupidly hadn't thought about. One more question, though. You mentioned vanishing at roughly 80% of the mob's health. Is there a specific advantage to doing this as opposed to waiting to vanish until you're closer to threat capping? Generally on fights where it doesn't matter who's secondary on the threat list, I try to ride my tank as close as possible before vanishing. Or should 80% generally be when I end up catching the tank anyway?
See the bolded part. 80% is a good rule of thumb and on a lot of threat sensitive fights I can typically hover right under the tank to that point, vanish, then go ape-shit on the boss and not worry about catching him. Around 80% is when you should be making up the initial difference from the misdirect. However, Hydross and Morogrim are exceptions due to the fact that the tank isn't going to generate as much threat right away.
#1349SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Arnan
Thanks for the answer, I did expect that to be the truth - I'll be ignoring them for now
#1350SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Arindelest
Originally Posted by Icos View Post
I think part of the issue I have with the sheet is it assumes we never evis. Even in tank and spanks theres a point where we will evisc/envenom. Granted the t5 2pc doesn't make a difference in your overall DPS for those last few finishers you toss @ 1%, but its still something. Another good example is the vashj fight, where killing elementals we constantly evisc, and on nagas we evisc near the end of their health as well. The spreadsheet doesn't however take any of this into account, and as such does not give the 2pc t5 any DPS value whatsoever. It seems to me to be a bit of over-theorycrafting, and not thinking enough in reality.

Running the numbers for myself, I come up with a less than 8 DPS change from swapping over to vengeful glad's tunic/deathmantle legguards from the 2 peices of nightblade. Also, does the sheet take stamina into account? More specifically the Open Office version, as thats the one I'm currently using. A dead rogue doesn't do any DPS, so I would think that stamina would have some value. Not much, but I would think it would at last weigh it somewhat.
As far as Eviscerate goes, there's no reason under *normal* conditions you would ever use Eviscerate over Rupture (yes, there was some math showing that when 4/5 T5 buff is up, you have a ton of AP/Crit, the boss is well debuffed, and mangle is not up, Evisc is the slightly better option, but that's by far the exception). Therefore inherently there's no reason to give the 2pc bonus any value at all, since you'd never be using it for what the spreadsheet models: a tank n' spank fight with no quirks.

Of course you're free to calculate how many times you'd actually use Eviscerate in a certain fight, the damage gain from using the 2pc T5 bonus, and divide that by your time on-target. Then you have a rough DPS estimate for the 2pc bonus which you can put in on the set bonuses tab for the Gear Sheet. Of course since you're looking at quirky (not tank n' spank) fights there's a ton of other factors which would affect gear selection much more than that bonus, such as the increased value of agility, the lower armor of boss adds, etc.

To address the stamina issue, stamina is taken into concern in the Gear Sheet if you're using the "Weighted" totals. Of course it doesn't add to your DPS, and you change the amount of stamina which equals one EP for item selection purposes. Why is stamina modeled? As Aldriana put it before, stamina has some amount of value. Would you trade 1 DPS for 1 Stamina? Probably not. But I'd certainly take 100 stamina over 1 DPS.
#1351SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Aldriana
Originally Posted by Dontmindme View Post
Stamina is given zero weight in the DPS Spreadsheet. As your gear improves, you get a fair amount of stamina anyway. Play your character correctly and I can think of no reason one should get killed. Besides, what's 10 Stamina anyway? 100 health? How often have you screwed up and asked, "if I only had 100 more health?" I think it's entirely more common to experience (so tank dies), hmm..."if only I had 600 more Stamina, I could have survived that 17k crushing."

Now, I'm not saying it's 0 value, but with proper play, it shouldn't really come into question especially since upper level gear tends to have a fair amount of inherent Stamina. Regardless, the value of Stamina is not DPS. You can look at the DPS numbers in the box at the top. Also up top one can look at one's health. You certainly have the option of switching gear around to add health while minimizing DPS loss. The sheet is there to be used as you wish it to be. There are many options and I'm sure people use it in different ways.
Personally, I've survived incoming damage with less than 500 hit points on any number of occasions, which made me think "boy, am I glad I have as many HP as I do". Fundamentally: when the tank dies (or you pull aggro) and the boss starts wailing on you, stamina isn't going to save you (though dodge might, but that's another story). However, when you get aggro on Hyjal trash (which happens) or are being hit by the raid damage of a boss (Ice Bolt on Rage, Rain of Fire on Azgalor, Doomfire/Air Burst/both on Archimonde, plus various and assorted effects on over half the bosses in BT) stamina can - and does - make a difference. And while good healing can reduce the need for this, taking some of the burden off your healers is not a bad thing. So I subscribe to the philosophy that while stamina (and dodge) are significantly less important than DPS stats, there is a point at which one can say "losing X amount of DPS is worth Y stamina or Z dodge". Which is why, in the Gear sheet, I allow and encourage having a small sta/dodge weighting to assess your survivability in combination with your damage output.
#1352SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Roquefire
Off-topic slightly, does Armour Pen still become better as you obtain more of it? I've always read this to be the case on various theorycrafting discussions about it but recently when I checked Aldriana's spreadsheet the removal of Sunder Armourx5 (2600 armour) reduced my dps on a boss with 7700 armour from 1917.67 to 1631.17 (14.95% loss in dps, 286.5 raw dps), whereas the removal of CoR reduced my dps from 1917.67 to 1818.01 (5.2% loss in dps, 99.66 raw dps).

From the calculations here it seems like Armour Pen actually became worse for me dps-wise as I got more of it :S, have I done something obviously wrong or has the theorycrafting on armour pen changed since I last checked? (I'd bet on the former seeing as my grasp on the actual math formulas used to work this stuff out is sorely lacking heh).
#1353SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 pewsey
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
Personally, I've survived incoming damage with less than 500 hit points on any number of occasions, which made me think "boy, am I glad I have as many HP as I do". Fundamentally: when the tank dies (or you pull aggro) and the boss starts wailing on you, stamina isn't going to save you (though dodge might, but that's another story). However, when you get aggro on Hyjal trash (which happens) or are being hit by the raid damage of a boss (Ice Bolt on Rage, Rain of Fire on Azgalor, Doomfire/Air Burst/both on Archimonde, plus various and assorted effects on over half the bosses in BT) stamina can - and does - make a difference. And while good healing can reduce the need for this, taking some of the burden off your healers is not a bad thing. So I subscribe to the philosophy that while stamina (and dodge) are significantly less important than DPS stats, there is a point at which one can say "losing X amount of DPS is worth Y stamina or Z dodge". Which is why, in the Gear sheet, I allow and encourage having a small sta/dodge weighting to assess your survivability in combination with your damage output.
I have 2 sets of gear for this. If you PvP more than I do, you can probably solve it that way. There's a lot of rogue gear in MH/BT that isn't really an upgrade over T4 type gear (sob, sob), but are a sidegrade with massive additional stamina (like an additional 40 stam).

Our guild encourages the rogues to pick this up as "off-spec". I can go from 10.1k health in my normal dps gear, to just under 12k health with about a 1% loss in dps. On fights like Najentus and Archimonde, that can be the difference between collecting loot, and wiping.
#1354SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Grunge
Originally Posted by pewsey View Post
I have 2 sets of gear for this. If you PvP more than I do, you can probably solve it that way. There's a lot of rogue gear in MH/BT that isn't really an upgrade over T4 type gear (sob, sob), but are a sidegrade with massive additional stamina (like an additional 40 stam).

Our guild encourages the rogues to pick this up as "off-spec". I can go from 10.1k health in my normal dps gear, to just under 12k health with about a 1% loss in dps. On fights like Najentus and Archimonde, that can be the difference between collecting loot, and wiping.
I picked up a 2nd pair of t6 pants for mainly pvp but using stamina enchant and a shifting shadowsong I often use it on stamina sensitive fights. I also took Don's Money Belt for that reason.

P.S. What's up with your gems tho?
I did some math and I think it came down to Brigand's/Nethershadow/Midnight/T6 and Vashj belt would be the best options for your purple needs. T6 shoulders and Nyn'ja Tabi's are better off with 10hit in them.
#1355SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Left
Re the Stamina/DPS tradeoff:

My general philosophy on this is to always use an agi/stam gem (usually shifting(?) nightseye) in all blue sockets in my gear. Sure, I may lose a little bit of DPS by doing so, but most of the time doing so also allows me to meet a socket bonus that lessens the impact. Usually, this DPS loss is quite small, and what I get in return is 60 HP per blue socket. This seems like a reasonable tradeoff to me, and lets me run between 10k and 11k health while raid buffed.

All in all, this seems like a better strategy to me than swapping in random PvP gear, since PvP gear uses itemization on resilience and crit. For very stamina-sensitive fights I do swap out my T4 legs for S3 legs with the stamina armor kit, and this gets me an extra 750 health or so. However, with my socketing strategy I find that I rarely am too low on stam for the fight.

(For context: my guild is in T5 content.)
#1356SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Fenwick
Originally Posted by Hanos View Post
As far as Morogrim goes, yes if you open up with all your cooldowns right away you are going to have issues, read up on the mechanics of the fight some more to understand why your tank's threat is going to suck at first, same with Hydross for the reasons I mention, Hydross wait until you have 15 seconds before the switch to use your CD's. Also, as you tank gears up, Morogrim will start off even slower due to dodge/parry strings. Don't plan to use CD's on Morogrim until around 90% or so, to give your tank time to get a lead and to start generating consistent threat.
The bolded part of your statement there is something I didn't even consider. Our tank for the Morogrim fight has gained some extra gear lately, which would explain why I'm starting to have some troubles on threat. Usually when I start having problems with controlling a fight, I look only for factors about myself that have changed (gear, rotation, etc). I'm up to date on the mechanics of the fight, I just never considered how tanking improvements would affect me. Time for me to work on generating steady threat as opposed to jumping from zero to "sweet jebus where's the vanish key!"

Now, if I could only stop our hunters from pulling aggro on Leo. :P
#1357SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Hanos
Originally Posted by Fenwick View Post
Now, if I could only stop our hunters from pulling aggro on Leo. :P
I hear BoP works well.
#1358SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Kanan
This may not be the best place for this question, but it applies, somewhat. I've done a search or two, and I can't recall where I saw this...

A while back, someone posted a screenshot of attack speed after several haste procs (warglaives, double mongoose, etc.), and it was insanely fast.

Does anyone have that screenshot, or a link to the thread?
#1359SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3lawl
Question regarding ring enchants and a few other things

Here and elsewhere I see the +4 stats ring enchant theory crafted to be superior to +2 weapon damage. On the other hand I see Nihilum rogues (yea I know, don't flame me too hard) running +2 weapon damage. With kings +4 stats on both rings works out to be 18 attack power (by my calculations) and roughly .33% crit. +2 weapon damage is 1 more weapon damage than +4 stats on every swing, which seems to indicate to me that it is superior. Thoughts?

I run 334 unbuffed +hit and just picked up a TT. The rogue DPS spread sheet indicates that berserker's call (which was previously paired with my dragonspine) is slightly superior to the TT. Has anyone's experience differed from this? It seems to me that the TT should be superior for several reasons (proc is basically like activating the berserker's call, and it has passive +10 hit and 38 crit rating rather than 90 AP).

The DPS spreadsheet also tells me my "optimal hit" is 282. Is that section of the spreadsheet to be disregarded? It seems wrong to me.

That's pretty much it. The question on ring enchants has been bugging me for a long time since I am getting conflicting information from EJ and Nihilum.

Thanks.
#1360SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Ashere
Originally Posted by lawl View Post
Here and elsewhere I see the +4 stats ring enchant theory crafted to be superior to +2 weapon damage. On the other hand I see Nihilum rogues (yea I know, don't flame me too hard) running +2 weapon damage. With kings +4 stats on both rings works out to be 18 attack power (by my calculations) and roughly .33% crit. +2 weapon damage is 1 more weapon damage than +4 stats on every swing, which seems to indicate to me that it is superior. Thoughts?
Ask a Nihilium rogue, and he/she will tell you because it looked cool. Nihilium may be (one of) the top guilds in the world, but that's not due to heavy theory crafting, but due to more than excelent team work.

For the theorycrafting part of these enchants, keep in mind that the +2 damage only scales with the weapondamage modifiers, while the +4 stats scales with those, but also with various raidbuffs and other stat modifiers. Furthermore, the +2damage has no effect on your Ruptures, since it's a raw weapon damage increase (you can estimate it's AP equivalence, but it's still not AP) while +4 stats does improve your Ruptures.

The end results aren't too far apart, but for min/maxing it's something to consider.
#1361SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3koaschten
I have more than once argued with nihilum rogues on irc... they are those kind of players "doing what their stomach tells em whats right". If you want to see First Kills head over to nihilum.eu ... if you want hard facts just stay here. My favourite occasion was one of them claiming that DST wasn't best in slot...
#1362SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3royaljester
Originally Posted by Grunge View Post
P.S. What's up with your gems tho?
I did some math and I think it came down to Brigand's/Nethershadow/Midnight/T6 and Vashj belt would be the best options for your purple needs. T6 shoulders and Nyn'ja Tabi's are better off with 10hit in them.
Im guessing they are socketing to keep meta bonus on sharhaz. You dont really lose that much overall dps on all over fights to maintain a decent amount more for a fight that is god awful. I personally don't do it only because shadowsong's are fairly rare for us on drops, so I leave those to the healers since I already socketed. If we get an excess at a later point, sure, I'd do the same, but until then, meh.


As for nihilium rogues, while skill does play a factor into progression, when you're guild literally smashes their head against bosses for hours on end, even the most retarded/unskilled people can beat bosses. If everyone put in the time that they did and gave it a really effort, most people would be a lot further than they are now. That isn't to say they arent skilled people, they are, for the most part, excellent players, but don't count on them for expert advice. They do what they want full well knowing that they need no other explanation than "I'm in Nihilium".
#1363SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Aldriana
The other thing to keep in mind regarding gemming is that some gems are grandfathered in to some extent. For instance, at the time I got T6 shoulders, I was wearing Shadow-Walker's Cord (which was best in slot at the time), so Vashj belt wasn't even a consideration; Nyn'jah Tabi hadn't even been invented yet, so that wasn't an option either. Thus, I put my 2nd blue gem in shoulders, as I never expected to have a second socket bonus that was better. It's true that my totally resocketing I could gain 3 agi in place of 6 AP, but as my guild is rather stingy on these matters, it doesn't seem worth burning 4 epic gems to gain 1 EP. The fact that it works out better for Shahraz as well is icing on the cake.

Originally Posted by lawl View Post
Here and elsewhere I see the +4 stats ring enchant theory crafted to be superior to +2 weapon damage. On the other hand I see Nihilum rogues (yea I know, don't flame me too hard) running +2 weapon damage. With kings +4 stats on both rings works out to be 18 attack power (by my calculations) and roughly .33% crit. +2 weapon damage is 1 more weapon damage than +4 stats on every swing, which seems to indicate to me that it is superior. Thoughts?

I run 334 unbuffed +hit and just picked up a TT. The rogue DPS spread sheet indicates that berserker's call (which was previously paired with my dragonspine) is slightly superior to the TT. Has anyone's experience differed from this? It seems to me that the TT should be superior for several reasons (proc is basically like activating the berserker's call, and it has passive +10 hit and 38 crit rating rather than 90 AP).

The DPS spreadsheet also tells me my "optimal hit" is 282. Is that section of the spreadsheet to be disregarded? It seems wrong to me.
Regarding Nihilum: They succeed because they play a lot - which is fine. I don't want to take their success away from them. But they've repeatedly shown themselves to be somewhat lacking in the theorycraft department, so I wouldn't place too much weight on their gear selections.

Regarding TT vs Berserker's Call: They tend to be pretty comparable when everything is said and done. I think TT is usually ahead by just a hair, but realistically they're close enough I wouldn't worry about it too much.

Regarding "Optimal Hit" - if you're referring to the gear spreadsheet, I'd read the first post of that thread and the discussion of what optimal hit actually means. If you're referring to the DPS sheet, I can't help you.
#1364SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Snus
Armor Penetration

First off, wonderful addition to the post. Very informative.

I have a question however. My current spec is Combat Hemo (Swords). My only armor penetration comes from the Serrated Blades talent. Is this enough armor penetration to warrant Executioner on the Mainhand for raiding?

Once again, great addition to the post.

-Snus
#1365SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Fargo
I have a quick question

I've been reading and looking at different dps rotation cycles. With the 2 piece tier 4 bonus you only need 1/2 point snd whereas w/o the 2piece you need a 3/4 correct me if i'm wrong, but where would the line be drawn as to replace the tier4 two piece? is there that much of a dps loss to replace it asap? or to wait until hyjal/bt.

The World of Warcraft Armory

^^ that's my rogue btw ^^
#1366SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Aerlyn
Originally Posted by Fargo View Post
I have a quick question

I've been reading and looking at different dps rotation cycles. With the 2 piece tier 4 bonus you only need 1/2 point snd whereas w/o the 2piece you need a 3/4 correct me if i'm wrong, but where would the line be drawn as to replace the tier4 two piece? is there that much of a dps loss to replace it asap? or to wait until hyjal/bt.

The World of Warcraft Armory

^^ that's my rogue btw ^^
I think it has been told around there, but basically stick with 2 pieces t4 until you can get the 4 pieces t5 bonus, and replace the t5 4 pieces bonus when you can get the 2 pieces t6 bonus.
#1367SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Iscariot
My question ties on from the question above actually - while i know that you replace 2/tier4 with 4/tier5 what if you never got 4/tier5?

My guild has essentailly stopped doing TK now, so ive missed out on the helm which would have given me 4/tier5. From checking the spreadsheet i found i have either 2 options:
  • Tier 4 helm and tier 4 legs for the set bonus
  • Deathblow goggles and tier 5 legs, with no set bonues

The difference between both options is around 1 dps in favour of the first option in most cases. However, in fights with intermittent gaps in time on target (every fight really) which option would be better? Im inclined to think that 2 piece tier 4 would be better for dps as the cycles are shorter but im really not sure so advice would be appreciated.

Last edited by Iscariot : 02/07/08 at 7:59 AM.
#1368SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3leebis
Nihilum dps

(July 07) Tigole (Jefferey Kaplan), on Nihilum's rapid progression:

"It's not surprising that the three EU guilds who have progressed the furthest in Black Temple are also the guilds that spent the most time on the PTR. While it's "only taken them 2 weeks" to kill most of the content in BT, we've been watching them rep on the dungeon for 2 months now."

I browsed through WWS for the top 200 guild dps kills for every boss in black temple, trying to find Nihilum. I assumed that what's maybe one of the best geared guilds in the world would be there. No such luck. Either they're not interested in doing top level dps, they can't, or they don't post their kills on WWS. It might be all three.

However, some of the people posting on this website ARE part of the teams that are highly ranked on WWS, and they use the spreadsheets found here, the same spreadsheets that frequently, and accurately, contradict Nihilum's gear/gem/enchant suggestions.

So I recommend using the spreadsheets.
#1369SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3axebite
Im a roguetard newb

ok so i just hit 70 with my rogue.... been 70 FOREVER with my hunter (i know the game play basics).

up on reachin 70 with the rogue and trying out a few things... i realized im a terrible rogue and nothing make sense to me.

-the point-
one of my biggest confoundments has been mutilate, i keep doing the math on it(wrong im guessing) and it seems like it only does around the same damage as back stab for the same energy cost, less crit chance, but one more combo point....

that seems llike a HORRIBLE way to spend 41 talent points... but i see tons of rogues do it..

-the question-
whats the point of mutilate, and/or am i just doing the math wrong

-the plea-
HELP!!
#1370SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Kurani
Originally Posted by MMO-Champion
Rogue

* Envenom no longer consumes the Poison applications.
If that's true, I believe that evenom would be replacing Rupture on rotations? Assuming that we'd get most of the Stormstrike charges and the damage increase from the talent. Any thoughts on that yet?
#1371SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
hannigaholic
Originally Posted by Iscariot View Post
My question ties on from the question above actually - while i know that you replace 2/tier4 with 4/tier5 what if you never got 4/tier5?

My guild has essentailly stopped doing TK now, so ive missed out on the helm which would have given me 4/tier5. From checking the spreadsheet i found i have either 2 options:
  • Tier 4 helm and tier 4 legs for the set bonus
  • Deathblow goggles and tier 5 legs, with no set bonues

The difference between both options is around 1 dps in favour of the first option in most cases. However, in fights with intermittent gaps in time on target (every fight really) which option would be better? Im inclined to think that 2 piece tier 4 would be better for dps as the cycles are shorter but im really not sure so advice would be appreciated.
I'm in pretty much the same situation, though I have 3 pieces of T5 (shoulders, legs and gloves) in addition to my T4 (using helm and shoulders) and when I get the Kael Vial (attunement run tonight) it's likely I'll not see T5 content again unless there's another attunement run so I'm unlikely to ever get the 4-piece bonus.

However, according to the dps spreadsheet (I'm using 2_3_2_9 - haven't updated yet) the difference between using Netherblade and Deathmantle shoulders (the piece that I can trade to go from 2-piece T4 to 3-piece T5) is only 4dps. Once you're at that stage of progression it seems that the value of the T4 2-piece bonus becomes so small that you may as well simply ignore it. If you get an upgrade then take it and switch to 5s/5r. The worst that can happen is that your dps will fall by a fraction of a percent (4/1335 = 0.3% for me), which is frankly unnoticable. That difference can happen due to even 2 lucky extra SS crits (or unlucky non-crits) across a 10 minute fight.

Last edited by hannigaholic : 02/07/08 at 8:44 AM.
#1372SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Melnor
Originally Posted by Kurani View Post
If that's true, I believe that evenom would be replacing Rupture on rotations? Assuming that we'd get most of the Stormstrike charges and the damage increase from the talent. Any thoughts on that yet?
I would imagine you wouldn't even need the added bonus of Stormstrike to make envenom do more damage than rupture in this new scenario. The real question I guess would be what's better a 5/5 Vile Poisoned Envenom or 3/3 Serrated Blades Rupture w/ or w/out mangle. Since there's a higher probability that you would have the mangle debuff in a raid as oppposed to stormstrike, you may want to include that. At least that's the case in my guild. We've only recently starting bringing an enhancement shaman.
#1373SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Hanos
Originally Posted by Melnor View Post
I would imagine you wouldn't even need the added bonus of Stormstrike to make envenom do more damage than rupture in this new scenario. The real question I guess would be what's better a 5/5 Vile Poisoned Envenom or 3/3 Serrated Blades Rupture w/ or w/out mangle. Since there's a higher probability that you would have the mangle debuff in a raid as oppposed to stormstrike, you may want to include that. At least that's the case in my guild. We've only recently starting bringing an enhancement shaman.
Most top end guilds always have an enhancement shaman in the raids, so it really depends if you have an elemental as well, because if so odds are they will get the charge before you. But the more realistic comparison that we need to run is a 4/5 Vile Poison Envenom versus a 0/3 Serrated Blades Rupture with Mangle, since those of us concerned with our DPS are typically running 20/41/0, and Serrated Blades isn't exactly part of a Combat Swords build.
#1374SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Ozzmar
Originally Posted by Kurani View Post
If that's true, I believe that evenom would be replacing Rupture on rotations? Assuming that we'd get most of the Stormstrike charges and the damage increase from the talent. Any thoughts on that yet?
I can't see that happening anytime soon.

Envenom (Rank 2) = [900 + (AP*.15)] * 1.2
Rupture (Rank 7) = [1000 + (AP*.24)] * 1.3

Just at a glance, Rupture scales much better with your AP even without Serrated Blades. Just for argument's sake, assume a rogue has 1800 AP:

Envenom = [900 + (1800*.15)] * 1.2 = 1170 * 1.2 = 1404
Rupture = [1000 + (1800*.24)] * 1.3 = 1432 * 1.3 = 1861

An untalented Rupture still beats a talented Envenom. And to top it off:

Envenom - 1404 / 35 = 40.11 DPE
Rupture - 1432 / 25 = 57.28 DPE untalented, 74.44 DPE talented

Just for argument's sake, let's look at a typical 20/41/0 spec with 4/5 Vile Poisons (1.16 modifier) and no Serrated Blades (no 1.3 modifier). Again, assume 1800 AP:

Envenom = [900 + (1800*.15)] * 1.16 = 1170 * 1.16 = 1357 (38.77 DPE)
Rupture = [1000 + (1800*.24)] = 1432 (57.28 DPE)

The obvious counter-argument is that Envenom can crit (200% damage), Rupture cannot. Ignoring energy cost in this example for the time being, Envenom is doing 1357 / 1432 = .9476, or 94.76% of the damage of Rupture (and that gap would widen as AP increases). A base crit chance of only 6% would push the average damage of Envenom over that of Rupture (1357 * 1.06 = 1438.42), but the DPE is still lower (41.08).

To get the same DPE out of Envenom, we would need to get 57.28 * 35 = 2004.8 damage from it on average, which is approximately a 47.7% crit rate: 1357 * 1.477 = 2004.289.

I'm obviously not even in T5 content yet, so I can't really comment on how unrealistic it is to even try to get that high of a crit rate, but I'm thinking it probably can't happen easily. I haven't accounted for debuffs on the boss (Mangle, Misery, etc), but I can't imagine they'd provide anything close to the damage buff necessary to have Envenom catch Rupture.

At the moment, this change (if real) seems to be geared more towards 41/20/0 Mutilate specs who can consistently do a 4-5s/4-5r/4-5env cycle. Basically, a good combo point dump that won't kill your DP stack.

Note: Please correct my math if I've miscalculated something.
#1375SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Cos-
Originally Posted by Ozzmar View Post

To get the same DPE out of Envenom, we would need to get 57.28 * 35 = 2004.8 damage from it on average, which is approximately a 47.7% crit rate: 1357 * 1.477 = 2004.289.

I'm obviously not even in T5 content yet, so I can't really comment on how unrealistic it is to even try to get that high of a crit rate, but I'm thinking it probably can't happen easily. I haven't accounted for debuffs on the boss (Mangle, Misery, etc), but I can't imagine they'd provide anything close to the damage buff necessary to have Envenom catch Rupture.

At the moment, this change (if real) seems to be geared more towards 41/20/0 Mutilate specs who can consistently do a 4-5s/4-5r/4-5env cycle. Basically, a good combo point dump that won't kill your DP stack.

Note: Please correct my math if I've miscalculated something.
T6 quality in every slot with lotp, AToL up, BoK, is still only ~43% crit (unless you gem for agi or something) :P Pure Fist Spec envenom heroes? Not to mention you can't resist rupture and the only boss that can be poisoned and not ruptured is Supremus? 4/5 VP envenom still looks bad to me :P

Even for mutilate that change on its own isn't going to magically fix the short comings of everything to do with dagger specs like a 20% white damage buff in FW 5/5 would etc.
#1376SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Grunge
Originally Posted by Ozzmar View Post
I can't see that happening anytime soon.

Envenom (Rank 2) = [900 + (AP*.15)] * 1.2
Rupture (Rank 7) = [1000 + (AP*.24)] * 1.3

Just at a glance, Rupture scales much better with your AP even without Serrated Blades. Just for argument's sake, assume a rogue has 1800 AP:

Envenom = [900 + (1800*.15)] * 1.2 = 1170 * 1.2 = 1404
Rupture = [1000 + (1800*.24)] * 1.3 = 1432 * 1.3 = 1861

An untalented Rupture still beats a talented Envenom. And to top it off:

Envenom - 1404 / 35 = 40.11 DPE
Rupture - 1432 / 25 = 57.28 DPE untalented, 74.44 DPE talented

Just for argument's sake, let's look at a typical 20/41/0 spec with 4/5 Vile Poisons (1.16 modifier) and no Serrated Blades (no 1.3 modifier). Again, assume 1800 AP:

Envenom = [900 + (1800*.15)] * 1.16 = 1170 * 1.16 = 1357 (38.77 DPE)
Rupture = [1000 + (1800*.24)] = 1432 (57.28 DPE)

The obvious counter-argument is that Envenom can crit (200% damage), Rupture cannot. Ignoring energy cost in this example for the time being, Envenom is doing 1357 / 1432 = .9476, or 94.76% of the damage of Rupture (and that gap would widen as AP increases). A base crit chance of only 6% would push the average damage of Envenom over that of Rupture (1357 * 1.06 = 1438.42), but the DPE is still lower (41.08).

To get the same DPE out of Envenom, we would need to get 57.28 * 35 = 2004.8 damage from it on average, which is approximately a 47.7% crit rate: 1357 * 1.477 = 2004.289.

I'm obviously not even in T5 content yet, so I can't really comment on how unrealistic it is to even try to get that high of a crit rate, but I'm thinking it probably can't happen easily. I haven't accounted for debuffs on the boss (Mangle, Misery, etc), but I can't imagine they'd provide anything close to the damage buff necessary to have Envenom catch Rupture.

At the moment, this change (if real) seems to be geared more towards 41/20/0 Mutilate specs who can consistently do a 4-5s/4-5r/4-5env cycle. Basically, a good combo point dump that won't kill your DP stack.

Note: Please correct my math if I've miscalculated something.
Considering the fact that with the best gear obtainable rogues would be looking at 2.1k+ ap unbuffed, add mangle, it's quite clear that unless there are any other changes rupture will still be the "butter" finisher for rogues.
I can see Mutilate specs using it though. 45-50%+ crit rate is quite obtainable (Scroll, Food, Elixir, Feral, GoA Twisting)+ You wouldn't have problems with slack energy/cp's.
I also wonder how 2 piece T5 would affect the damage. Too bad I sharded mine. =/
#1377SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Pixen
So it's probable this post is a bit noobish to make here, but I figured I'd get more constructive and informed responses here than I would on general.

I got my rogue to 70 a bit ago and then shelved it to gear my paladin instead. The rogue is in pretty horrendous gear, slowly improving (I still have a Painweaver Band, how I haven't replaced it yet is beyond me, I couldn't tell you why). He's currently mutilate specced with the SL dagger and the dagger from the SMV questline, but I would like to go combat swords before I jump into Kara.

The problem is that I can't seem to obtain swords that I'd actually want to hop into Kara with. Grinding out arena points for the s2 swords would take a bit longer than I'd like. There's the decent slow sword from regular Mech, but it has the typical horrendous drop rate for 5 man weapons. Should I suck it up and run Mech/BM until decent blue swords drop, or should I grind honor and pick up the S1 swords? Any other suggestions would be helpful as well.

Also, I'm currently running with the Helm of the Claw with a RED. Is it worth levelling Engineering for the deathblow goggles? Would I be replacing it any time soon?
#1378SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Ozzmar
Season 1 weapons smoke anything you'll get in Kara, and you wouldn't be replacing them until you get to SSC or ZA.

Deathblow X11 Goggles are estimated to be on par with T5 gear. And again, they're better than anything you're going to get out of T4 content. Definitely skillup your Engineering and make them ASAP.
#1379SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Pixen
Originally Posted by Ozzmar View Post
Season 1 weapons smoke anything you'll get in Kara, and you wouldn't be replacing them until you get to SSC or ZA.
So it'd be a definite pickup of both S1 weapons then, or picking up the offhand and waiting for, say, a Spiteblade (if it really exists)?

Thanks for the quick response. I didn't really want to dump 30k honor and then regret the decision.
#1380SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3NvidiaN
A few more quickies for you all:

1) Do you consider websites such as ShadowPanther.net - World of Warcraft Rogue Info - Charts, Articles, Strategies & more! to be accurate as quick references for what gear is an upgrade? Or should I try to just keep the DPS spreadsheet open and work off that?

2) Given the difference between combat swords and combat maces (~1% DPS), would you say the difference is negligible, or significant? 10-13 DPS for someone doing 1000-1300 DPS doesn't seem like an awful lot to me in the grand scheme of things.
#1381SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Ozzmar
Originally Posted by Pixen View Post
So it'd be a definite pickup of both S1 weapons then, or picking up the offhand and waiting for, say, a Spiteblade (if it really exists)?

Thanks for the quick response. I didn't really want to dump 30k honor and then regret the decision.
I don't want to sound TOO jaded, but this is usually where someone comes in and says "Go to the Rogue DPS Spreadsheet thread, download it, and love it." Gear comparison questions can be answered by the spreadsheet far better than any "best guess" we can provide.

My instinct says that the base DPS coupled with the good stats (hit rating mostly) on the S1 sword would beat Spiteblade, but that's only my instinct.
#1382SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3NvidiaN
Originally Posted by Ozzmar View Post
I don't want to sound TOO jaded, but this is usually where someone comes in and says "Go to the Rogue DPS Spreadsheet thread, download it, and love it." Gear comparison questions can be answered by the spreadsheet far better than any "best guess" we can provide.

My instinct says that the base DPS coupled with the good stats (hit rating mostly) on the S1 sword would beat Spiteblade, but that's only my instinct.
I just checked, you gain ~3 DPS by switching to s1 sword from Spiteblade.
#1383SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3zeusal
Question for you:

"For example, once you reach or surpass the hit cap, you will never miss an attack against a raid boss unless you are under the effect of some debuff that reduces your hit chance"

If this is true could someone elaborate on why 2 hit capped rogues in SSC/TK would have a miss rate between 4.5-6.6%, would these be soley related to dodge and parried attacks?
#1384SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Aldriana
My guess would be because their parser is lumping dodges and misses together, and the base dodge rate after Weapon Expertise is 4%.
#1385SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3neg^
Originally Posted by zeusal View Post
Question for you:

"For example, once you reach or surpass the hit cap, you will never miss an attack against a raid boss unless you are under the effect of some debuff that reduces your hit chance"

If this is true could someone elaborate on why 2 hit capped rogues in SSC/TK would have a miss rate between 4.5-6.6%, would these be soley related to dodge and parried attacks?
WWS etc missrates include dodges and parries.
#1386SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3zeusal
Originally Posted by neg^ View Post
WWS etc missrates include dodges and parries.
Thanks for the clarification, I see it here now when I expand the miss %.
#1387SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3saedo
Originally Posted by neg^ View Post
WWS etc missrates include dodges and parries.
For WWS, what you do is click on the skill, at the numbers along the row, not the name of the skill itself (i.e. melee), and that gives you a drop down giving you details on the breakdown of individual misses, dodges, and parries.
#1388SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Fflewt
Originally Posted by Aerlyn View Post
Hello all, I have been struggling lately on what rotation to use, according to the spreadsheet the suggest rotation would be 3s/5r, deciding to test that out, I went to the good old blasted lands and found myself a Servant of Allistarj to test the aforementioned rotation on. The outcomes left me puzzled, I have to admit I was sure to achieve some better results.
Recount tells me I averaged 953.6 dps on a lvl 55 mob, thus having the upperhand in terms of weapon skill vs monster defense skill. I was using IP MH and DP in OH, using the rotation (starting with SS activating SnD, getting to 3cp refreshing the SnD then all the way up to 5cp and rupture) I found myself unable to keep it for a long, there were times in which I was at 5 cp with my previous rupture still ticking and 9 seconds left, and times in which i had like 6 seconds left on SnD and only with 3 or 4 CPs. In order to keep the SnD always up and running I found myself relying a lot on combat potency procs (according to recount noone of my weapon swings missed) and ruthlessness ones. I had sporadically times in which with this rotation SnD was down, be them half second or 2-3 seconds long, before I had 3 cps in order to refresh it.
Now the question that comes to mind, If I cant' keep up that rotation against a lvl 55 monster thus getting the most out of talents like Combat Potency, I assume that against a lvl 73 raid boss the things can only get worst. Should I use a 3 or 4 cp rupture being the difference in ticks minimal, or the loss of the free finisher will make the situation even worst?.
I've been slowly reading this thread ever since DMM pointed it out to me. I'm up to page 53 and decided I really had to ask a question. How does a rogue that is doing 953 dps manage to test any rotation on a lvl 55 mob? Isn't the mob typically dead after a few hits? I'm not being facetious, this is for my own edification and I'm assuming others would like to know. I'm trying to maximize my own rotation. Knowing how to test strategies and techniques on lower level mobs would be a great boon to my learning curve. In case you feel the urge to answer this query with try the spreadsheet, I have and I don't quite trust it implicitly yet. It currently says 5s/5r, which I would buy. Except for the fact that it says when Curator finally drops my T4 gloves my new cycle should be 1s/5r. This is definitely something I would like to test out on my own rather then when I'm leading a raid somewhere.

I've learned a lot reading this thread. Some of them are relatively simple like if you're running with an enhancement shaman remember not to put poison on your MH. The spreadsheet has also been helpful. Wish I would have discovered it before purchasing [Brooch of Deftness], but glad I found it before vendoring my [Choker of Vile Intent]. My guild is only just starting to work through Karazhan and I'm severely threat capped. (My build is optimized more to aid in my own survival and get in a lot of vanishes/feints, run Heroic Instances and help out with the occasional arena match.) On those rare opportunities I get invited along to participate in a raid where the tank can generate a lot more threat then my guildies, I would like to at least offer up whatever dps my spec/gear/abilties can provide.
#1389SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Ashere
Originally Posted by Fflewt View Post
How does a rogue that is doing 953 dps manage to test any rotation on a lvl 55 mob?
There are mobs in Blasted Lands that can't die, unless you destroy a special stone they're bound to, which you can only do while having a certain quest. Not being able to destroy that stone makes it possible to fight them indefinitely.
#1390SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3saedo
Originally Posted by Ashere View Post
There are mobs in Blasted Lands that can't die, unless you destroy a special stone they're bound to, which you can only do while having a certain quest. Not being able to destroy that stone makes it possible to fight them indefinitely.
There's also ogre spirits at the end of Dire Maul North. They don't die, they don't fight back, they don't face you either, so you can continuously hit their backside forever.
#1391SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3iohan_tich
i know that it was a practice to use off-hand sword and main hand fist with both points in sword and fist spec. off-hand sword would proc main hand fist attack, but i thought they fixed this to only proc additional sword attacks? anyone confirm?
#1392SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Aldriana
I'm not aware of any such fix ever having been made. If you can find a link to something that says otherwise, I for one would be interested to read it.
#1393SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Poontang137
So a 4s/5r cycle is better than 2s/5r? (what I am currently using)
#1394SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3coderego
Envenom:

ROGUE
- Envenom no longer consumes poison charges

Better than Rupture with 2 peice bonus of tier 5 and vile poisons? Discuss!
#1395SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3saedo
Originally Posted by coderego View Post
Envenom:

ROGUE
- Envenom no longer consumes poison charges

Better than Rupture with 2 peice bonus of tier 5 and vile poisons? Discuss!

Read a few posts back. Done!
#1396SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Evil
For the original poster, I'd just say I think Envenom is being changed not to consume DP charges in 2.4 (according to MMO Champion), so that section might need to be changed given that it will no longer be necessary to continually build up DP charges.
#1397SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3saedo
Originally Posted by Evil View Post
For the original poster, I'd just say I think Envenom is being changed not to consume DP charges in 2.4 (according to MMO Champion), so that section might need to be changed given that it will no longer be necessary to continually build up DP charges.
Right now it's just a rumored change. No PTR or official confirmation yet.
#1398SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Zurgat
No, it's not confirmed yet, but the PTR is on the background downloader now i think.

If it does turn out to work this way however, the DPS gain would probably be fairly minor.
Before i write more, keep in mind this is scratchpad math and i don't play envenom myself, so likely to be very inaccurate. Please take it with a heavy grain of salt.


The bonus here, is that in theory he'd be able to put instant poison on his MH now, or leave it open for windfury, which will cause a decent increase in DPS. However, as he's using slow daggers, it's highly possible that with only the offhand enchanted with DP the stack of 5 might fall off fairly frequently. So in the end even with the changes you'd still be using dual DP or even wound poison.

How fast does a 41/20 rogue go from 0 to 5 stacks of DP with both weapons poisoned with DP ?
Pretty fast undoubtedly, but let's assume 4 seconds for now. Though it might be faster or slower in reality.
So, with an energy consumption / combo point generation of about 20/2 : 600 energy per minute.
With a rotation of 2s/4e means you'd be using 25,60,60,35 per cycle (talents not included in this calculation) and thus be using about 3.3 cycles per minute.

DP while active is about 90 DPS
When not active, 0 DPS.

With 2.4 it'd be at a constant 90 DPS once you get the stack to it's limit.
Instead of falling back to 1 or zero stacks 3 times per minute.
As median you'd be on ~50 poison DPS for 4 seconds per cycle. 4x3.3x40 = 533,32 damage lost each minute.
533,32 / 60 = ~9 DPS

I'm not so much worried about rupture -vs- envenom, it's been researched quite often.
But, if the 2.4 change is real and gives only ~9 DPS for envenom spec extra, it seems fairly minor to me.

Disclaimer : All math in this post was done quick and dirty for the sake of creating a rough estimate, and will likely differ from the actual values in game. If somebody has a bit more time, or mathematical knowledge to spend on calculating it please do so.

Personally i think mutilate or envenom should "refresh" all poisons currently active on the target in order for it to be worth it, much like the paladin's Crusader strike.
Edit: Forgot to include envenom energy use in the calculation... DPS gain turns out even lower this way.

Last edited by Zurgat : 02/08/08 at 5:41 AM.
#1399SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Raidenhc
Using the AEP values listed in page 1, Nyn'Jah Tabi Boots ranks higher than Shadowmaster's Boots for a combat sword rogue...I thought Shadowmaster is supposed to be the best boots in the game?
#1400SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3koaschten
uh no? Until the introduction of T6 content, Edgewalker Longboots were best in that slot... beating at least 2 (?) pairs of boots in t5 content.
The Rogue Gear Spreadsheet support this, as well as the values derived from it for Loot Rank -> clicky
#1401SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Elensar
Nyn'Jah Tabi Boots were added fairly recently, they come out on top for me the last time I ran a upgrade check using t4/t5 content also. Could your information be outdated Koas' ?
#1402SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 songster
Shadowmaster's are T6 level, not T4/T5. Nyn'jah's Tabi Boots are a sidegrade with almost exactly equivalent DPS. Which one is better will depend on the rest of your kit, on buffs etc., and there won't be more than ~2 DPS in it anyway. If you have to get that last 2 DPS and work out which is better for you, use one of the spreadsheets and fill in your own values - the AEP numbers are only an approximation to the more precise personalised numbers anyway.
#1403SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Missgunst
what about evisc and envenom at bosses which are immune to bleed effect, envenom should be better with full stacks?!
#1404SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 songster
If it doesn't drop the DP stack, envenom is strictly superior to eviscerate in pretty much all circumstances, so of course you use it if the mob is immune to rupture.
#1405SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Zurgat
Originally Posted by koaschten View Post
The Rogue Gear Spreadsheet support this, as well as the values derived from it for Loot Rank -> clicky
Here's the data on the boots.
* Nyn'jah's Tabi Boots 128 233.9 BoJ Vendor
* Shadowmaster's Boots 141 230.4 Mother Shahraz
* Edgewalker Longboots 115 200.82 Moroes

The Tabi boots are clearly superior, though not by much.

If you run your gear trough the rogue sheet http://rogue.raidcal.com/
You'll notice that at low gear levels the shadowmasters are better, but once you start getting T5/T6 the Tabi boots pull ahead.
#1406SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3koaschten
Sorry for being a little unclear in my previous post. I just should say what i think and not describing it and hope everyone gets the point. I tried to tell you to not look at the ilvl of an item but at the efficient stat allocation.

My point was simply that as Edgewalkers were superior to t5 loot, Nyn's are equivalent/superior to t6 loot.
#1407SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3daverk50
I've tried to find this info but get too many responses to a search. I also looked through all the wow folders with no luck. How do you create or find the wws logs that will show all the details of fights?
#1408SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Grel
I apologize for asking this, since it seems like something likely to me to have been questioned previously in such a hot topic, but I have to go to class shortly and didn't have time to do a CRTL-F search of all 57 pages of this thread.

I've been using the rogue DPS spreadsheets linked here on these forums, and I noticed something that took me by quite a bit of surprise: Evidently, for a combat swords spec'd (using 20/41/0) rogue, the Wastewalker Leggings are the second best leg piece in the game, after the Slayer's Legguards.

Using my current gear, and buffed raid DPS, I have these results:
Midnight Legguards 1240.35 DPS (I am currently wearing these)
Skulker's Greaves 1251.02 DPS
Netherblade Breeches 1252.49 DPS
Deathmantle Legguards 1254.29 DPS
Shallow-grave Trousers 1255.73 DPS
Leggings of Murderous Intent 1256.10 DPS
Shady Dealer's Pantaloons 1256.88 DPS
Wastewalker Leggings 1257.58 DPS
Slayer's Legguards 1264.60 DPS

So my obvious question, which like I said I'm sure has been asked before: Is this true? Or is there a mathematical error somewhere inside the spreadsheet?

Thank you very much, whoever can provide me with information to this regard.
#1409SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3koaschten
@Grel That looks rather like you gain a set bonus upon wearing the pants or a fluke in the stats table for the wastewalker leggings within the sheet.

@Daverk50 You will want to look at Wow Web Stats . Basically you do a /combatlog to start logging a fight, /combatlog to stop logging and then use the supplied java client to either generate a local wws report in a html file you can view locally or upload your data to the wowwebstats server for public view.
#1410SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Left
Originally Posted by Grel View Post
I apologize for asking this, since it seems like something likely to me to have been questioned previously in such a hot topic, but I have to go to class shortly and didn't have time to do a CRTL-F search of all 57 pages of this thread.

I've been using the rogue DPS spreadsheets linked here on these forums, and I noticed something that took me by quite a bit of surprise: Evidently, for a combat swords spec'd (using 20/41/0) rogue, the Wastewalker Leggings are the second best leg piece in the game, after the Slayer's Legguards.

Using my current gear, and buffed raid DPS, I have these results:
Midnight Legguards 1240.35 DPS (I am currently wearing these)
Skulker's Greaves 1251.02 DPS
Netherblade Breeches 1252.49 DPS
Deathmantle Legguards 1254.29 DPS
Shallow-grave Trousers 1255.73 DPS
Leggings of Murderous Intent 1256.10 DPS
Shady Dealer's Pantaloons 1256.88 DPS
Wastewalker Leggings 1257.58 DPS
Slayer's Legguards 1264.60 DPS

So my obvious question, which like I said I'm sure has been asked before: Is this true? Or is there a mathematical error somewhere inside the spreadsheet?

Thank you very much, whoever can provide me with information to this regard.
It's likely that this has to do with the fact that you are currently wearing the wastewalker tunic. Adding the leggings would give you the Wastewalker 2pc set bonus, which is +35 hit rating. For your gear level, that's a huge upgrade. However, you'd likely get an even better upgrade by getting 2pc T4.

Personally, I wouldn't waste the armor kit on wastewalkers since you should be replacing your chestpiece with the Kara one, ZA one, or the one from Mag within a relatively short amount of time.

In general: most of the time when you find a "magical" blue that is worth a ton more than a purple, either (a) your gear is strangely allocated and needs improvement, or (b) there is a set bonus involved.
#1411SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Aldriana
Originally Posted by Zurgat View Post
Here's the data on the boots.
* Nyn'jah's Tabi Boots 128 233.9 BoJ Vendor
* Shadowmaster's Boots 141 230.4 Mother Shahraz
* Edgewalker Longboots 115 200.82 Moroes

The Tabi boots are clearly superior, though not by much.

If you run your gear trough the rogue sheet http://rogue.raidcal.com/
You'll notice that at low gear levels the shadowmasters are better, but once you start getting T5/T6 the Tabi boots pull ahead.
Edgewalker and Shadowmaster's tend to run very close in terms of raw DPS; for me, Nyn'jah Tabi comes out ahead by .6 AP on sustained fights. Now, the first thing to remember is that the spreadsheets are generally not accurate at this resolution, anyway; I wouldn't feel comfortable saying more than that they're sidegrades of each other. However, even if this were not the case, Shadowmaster's has two other advantages:

1) Shadowmaster's has more stamina. Even if you subscribe to the theory that stamina is not worth trading DPS for (which I disagree with, but, whatever): it seems pretty clear to me that if you have two items that do completely identical DPS, the one that has higher stamina is better.

2) On interrupted fights Shadowmaster's holds a slight edge in terms of quality. They do totally equivalent damage on sustained fights, and Shadowmaster's gains more of it's benefit through crit/AP, while Nyn'jah Tabi gets more of it's benefit from hit. Since hit only works on white damage, while crit/AP works on everything, the advantage shifts towards Shadowmaster's on fights where you do more yellow damage than usual - that is, on interrupted fights.

So from a totally abstract perspective, I would argue that Shadowmaster's are the best boot in the game. Not by a whole lot, but if you had to only pick one boot to wear, they're the one I'd pick.

Of course, implied by that last statement is the real answer, which is: by the time you're reasonably considering Shadowmaster's as an option, you should have long since picked up Nyn'jah Tabi; and since you have both anyway, the optimal thing to do is pretty clearly to socket your Nyn'jah Tabi towards hit (rigid rigid, probably) and enchant it +12 agi, and socket your Shadowmaster's boots more towards agi (glinting/glinting or even delicate/glinting) and enchant it with Cat's Swiftness. You can then use Shadowmaster's for most fights (the ones where you're going to be moving around and thus want run speed, plus trash) but swap out for Nyn'jah Tabi to use on purely stationary nuke fights (such as Teron).
#1412SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Grel
One other question I have (and thank you very much, those who responded to my previous question about the Wastewalker Leggings), is that I have been playing around with the spreadsheets again, playing with various swords-based talent combinations. I've seen numerous testimonies of the merits of 20/41/0 and 19/42/0, but I decided to see what would happen if I took one point out of Improved Kick (with no apparent effect on buffed raid DPS) from the 20/41/0 spec and put it in the assassination tree to cap out Vile Poisons, leading to the 21/40/0 spec which I have heard nothing of.

My question is, if this spec improved my buffed raid DPS by about 3 (which some may consider negligible), why is it not prominent? Does it have something to do with my gear, again? Or is there some other beneficial, non-damaging effect that Improved Kick or Improved Sprint may bring to a raid that is considered more significant than 5/5 Vile Poisons? The only things I can think of in this case would be poison-immune raid bosses or trash, or perhaps a scenario in which the rogue was rooted/slowed and Imp. Sprint might help to alleviate this problem in a way that CoS could not, in order to return to melee range.

I'm sorry if this post is confusing, I couldn't think of a better way to word what I was asking.

Thanks a lot to anyone who has any input!

EDIT: I now realize that this is impossible; the spreadsheet did not apply the restrictions placed by the various talent tier requirements. I decided to keep this post here, however, for historical value (or just as an example of how you need to be careful with what you play around with before you say something).

Last edited by Grel : 02/08/08 at 1:17 PM.
#1413SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Latito
So you're saying that by using a 21/40 build.. you gained dps? More likely you are using an impossible build - as you likely kept Surprise Attacks, despite it being a 41 pt. talent.
#1414SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Grel
Oh my god, you're right.

Hahahah, the spreadsheet didn't take into account that I wasn't following the limitations of the talent tiers.

I apologize for that stupid post. I stand corrected.
#1415SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 songster
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
Of course, implied by that last statement is the real answer, which is: by the time you're reasonably considering Shadowmaster's as an option, you should have long since picked up Nyn'jah Tabi; and since you have both anyway, the optimal thing to do is pretty clearly to socket your Nyn'jah Tabi towards hit (rigid rigid, probably) and enchant it +12 agi, and socket your Shadowmaster's boots more towards agi (glinting/glinting or even delicate/glinting) and enchant it with Cat's Swiftness. You can then use Shadowmaster's for most fights (the ones where you're going to be moving around and thus want run speed, plus trash) but swap out for Nyn'jah Tabi to use on purely stationary nuke fights (such as Teron).
Or save your DKP and leave Shadowmaster's for the people that didn't bother picking up Nin'jah's Tabi Boots. At this point, having the latter, I'd only pick up Shadowmaster's if the alternative was a shard. Other people need them more.
#1416SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Aldriana
Well, there's that, too. I was speaking more from a "total optimal endpoint" scenario, without worrying too much about the timing of getting there. Clearly you want to let your fellow rogues who didn't get Nyn'jah Tabi have them first (though one has to wonder *why* they didn't get NT boots, since any rogue reasonably working on Shahraz shouldn't have any difficulty obtaining 60 badges). However, eventually, enough will drop that the other rogues will have them; and even if you decide to let feral druids and/or hunters get them too (which strikes me as significantly more debatable), *eventually* enough will drop that you'll get one. So, yes, if there are other people in the guild who are needier, it would certainly be polite to let them have it. But when it gets to the point where people are taking it for off-spec or non-primary raiding roles, it seems reasonable to jump in and grab a pair, since they *are* best in slot, even if not by very much.

So, for instance, in my guild: we have 4 rogues. Despite having killed Shahraz for over 6 months now we've only seen 2 Shadowmaster's. Of the remaining 2 rogues, I'm wearing Nyn'jah Tabi, and the other guy isn't. Hence, I'm going to let him get the next one. But that doesn't change the fact that they are optimal for me and eventually I'd like to have a set, regardless of whether it's the 4th, 5th, or 12th pair that drops.
#1417SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3nelalas
Originally Posted by songster View Post
If it doesn't drop the DP stack, envenom is strictly superior to eviscerate in pretty much all circumstances, so of course you use it if the mob is immune to rupture.
Keep in mind that a lot of bosses that are immune to bleed effects are also immune to poisons, rendering envenom useless.
#1418SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
hannigaholic
I must be missing something here - using both the T5 and T6 EP weightings listed on page 1, as well as both the DPS and the Gear Spreadhseets in full T6 gear, using a 20/41/0 build, I'm seeing the Nyn'jah's tabi boots come out ahead of the Shadowmaster's Boots (even though it's by less than 2dps using the DPS sheet and 3dps using the Gear sheet) so how come everybody is talking about the Shadowmaster's Boots as best-in-slot?

It seems that by any measure we currently have availabe, the Nyn'jah's Tabi Boots are in fact the best rogue boots currently in the game.

Last edited by hannigaholic : 02/08/08 at 3:40 PM.
#1419SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Aldriana
I'd refer you to post 1411 for my answer to that question. You may feel differently, of course.
#1420SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3hannigaholic
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
I'd refer you to post 1411 for my answer to that question. You may feel differently, of course.
Sorry, I must be getting really lazy. OK yeah, near-identical dps but significant stamina and minor burst gains. Makes sense indeed.
#1421SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Ozzmar
This is something I've been digging around trying to find some information on, but haven't had much luck (even in the Mutilate thread itself).

Our guild is bringing up the rear (so to speak) in terms of progression and we're just now getting into SSC and possibly TK. That of course means the dreaded Hydross and Loot Reaver fights aren't far away.

To provide a little necessary background, our guild is not min/max by any means. Our guild leader operates firmly on the basis of "play what you want, but play it well", and I'm no exception. I chose to raid with Mutilate, and I have no intention of changing that solely for 1 or 2 boss fights. That said, I still want to put my best effort forward with what I have.

Maybe there's a good post I've missed, or some good info that some vets haven't shared, but what are some things I can do to optimize my DPS for Hydross and Void Reaver as Mutilate spec?

Off the top of my head, Sharpening Stones would be a good start, and possibly stacking Armor Penetration (Executioner, Icon of Unyielding Courage, S3 pvp items). I've also read people suggesting to use short cycles and keep FW up as much as possible, as you're really just refreshing Slice and Dice over and over and burning extra points on Eviscerate. Though I can't say I've tried this or heard much raving support for it.

I've also thought of swapping in more Hit Rating gear as my white damage would probably be more important than my ability to crit and keep multiple abilities running.

Any thoughts or advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks guys!
#1422SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Hanos
Originally Posted by hannigaholic View Post
I must be missing something here - using both the T5 and T6 EP weightings listed on page 1, as well as both the DPS and the Gear Spreadhseets in full T6 gear, using a 20/41/0 build, I'm seeing the Nyn'jah's tabi boots come out ahead of the Shadowmaster's Boots (even though it's by less than 2dps using the DPS sheet and 3dps using the Gear sheet) so how come everybody is talking about the Shadowmaster's Boots as best-in-slot?

It seems that by any measure we currently have availabe, the Nyn'jah's Tabi Boots are in fact the best rogue boots currently in the game.
Read post 1411, basically 2 DPS is smaller then the realistic accuracy of the spreadsheet, and Shadow Master's have more Stamina. Basically they aren't a straight up upgrade where one simply has more Hit or AP and nothing else changes. The stats on the 2 boots are very different, and as post 1411 explains, that is different implications for different fights.
#1423SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Hanos
Originally Posted by Ozzmar View Post
This is something I've been digging around trying to find some information on, but haven't had much luck (even in the Mutilate thread itself).

Our guild is bringing up the rear (so to speak) in terms of progression and we're just now getting into SSC and possibly TK. That of course means the dreaded Hydross and Loot Reaver fights aren't far away.

To provide a little necessary background, our guild is not min/max by any means. Our guild leader operates firmly on the basis of "play what you want, but play it well", and I'm no exception. I chose to raid with Mutilate, and I have no intention of changing that solely for 1 or 2 boss fights. That said, I still want to put my best effort forward with what I have.

Maybe there's a good post I've missed, or some good info that some vets haven't shared, but what are some things I can do to optimize my DPS for Hydross and Void Reaver as Mutilate spec?

Off the top of my head, Sharpening Stones would be a good start, and possibly stacking Armor Penetration (Executioner, Icon of Unyielding Courage, S3 pvp items). I've also read people suggesting to use short cycles and keep FW up as much as possible, as you're really just refreshing Slice and Dice over and over and burning extra points on Eviscerate. Though I can't say I've tried this or heard much raving support for it.

I've also thought of swapping in more Hit Rating gear as my white damage would probably be more important than my ability to crit and keep multiple abilities running.

Any thoughts or advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks guys!
You could always try adjusting your spec to include 3 points in Imp Backstab...
#1424SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Left
Originally Posted by Hanos View Post
You could always try adjusting your spec to include 3 points in Imp Backstab...
It's been discussed in the mutilate thread: here, here, here, here, and here, (and in some other posts).

The general consensus was that against a non-poisoned mob, improved backstab's DPE will be close or slightly better than mutilate's DPE, depending on gearing. (Remember that backstab in a 41/20/0 build doesn't benefit from Opportunity, Aggression, or Surprise Attacks.) However, mutilate also grants an extra combo point and yields a lot more Find Weakness uptime, and therefore it's still better to use it even against a non-poisoned mob.

As for ways to increase Mutilate damage against a non-poisonable, non-rupturable mob like VR... I really have no idea. Try running the AEP macro in the DPS spreadsheet for a mutilate spec when "poisonable" and "use rupture" are turned off, and see what you get. Then, find a gear set that maximizes those stats...
#1425SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Fenwick
A different deadly poison?

I've been searching through wowhead.com and the new wowdb.com, but can't quite find my answer to this. I'm either looking in the wrong place or I'm damn blind, so I bring this question here.

The other night we were clearing the first set of trash in Solarian's room (the ones that can MC), and we had some sheeps up. One of the sheeps kept breaking over and over, and eventually myself and a few others targeted it so that we could see exactly which DoT had been screwing us over. Well, turns out it was just one DoT, "Deadly Poison." But, there was a catch; the icon was NOT the rogue DP icon (two fangs). Instead, it was the icon that you see for the hunter pet's Scorpid Poison (claw with a green background). But we had no hunters with a scorpid pet.

Basically the poison was listed as "Deadly Poison" and it did stack (got up to two before we made everyone stop dps'ing) but did not look like the rogues' DP icon. Are there any trinkets/spells/abilities that result in this? The only think I can think of is snake trap deadly poison, but I'm not sure what the icon for that looks like (CloS + not caring).
#1426SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Rerolled
Snakes in a trap do indeed have an ability called Deadly Poison with an icon that looks exactly like what you describe. (deadly poison - Wowhead Search) The scorpid version is actually called Scorpid Poison and the icon is the same as crippling poison.
#1427SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Stabmaster
Originally Posted by Fenwick View Post
I've been searching through wowhead.com and the new wowdb.com, but can't quite find my answer to this. I'm either looking in the wrong place or I'm damn blind, so I bring this question here.

The other night we were clearing the first set of trash in Solarian's room (the ones that can MC), and we had some sheeps up. One of the sheeps kept breaking over and over, and eventually myself and a few others targeted it so that we could see exactly which DoT had been screwing us over. Well, turns out it was just one DoT, "Deadly Poison." But, there was a catch; the icon was NOT the rogue DP icon (two fangs). Instead, it was the icon that you see for the hunter pet's Scorpid Poison (claw with a green background). But we had no hunters with a scorpid pet.

Basically the poison was listed as "Deadly Poison" and it did stack (got up to two before we made everyone stop dps'ing) but did not look like the rogues' DP icon. Are there any trinkets/spells/abilities that result in this? The only think I can think of is snake trap deadly poison, but I'm not sure what the icon for that looks like (CloS + not caring).
Hunter's Snake Trap.

If your raid has any mysterious cc-breaking problems, it's likely a Hunter's fault. Either it's a Multishot, or just not paying attention to what they're targeting, etc. I don't really know why, but many Hunters seem to have no ability to think rationally or even pay partial attention to what's going on.
#1428SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Vulajin
I'm sorry, I posted several pages ago that I was going to double-check all the EP values and such, but I've been so swamped with stuff that I haven't gotten around to it. For now, please regard that section as dubious, and use Aldriana's spreadsheet for EP weights instead.
#1429SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 pewsey
Originally Posted by Grunge View Post
I picked up a 2nd pair of t6 pants for mainly pvp but using stamina enchant and a shifting shadowsong I often use it on stamina sensitive fights. I also took Don's Money Belt for that reason.

P.S. What's up with your gems tho?
I did some math and I think it came down to Brigand's/Nethershadow/Midnight/T6 and Vashj belt would be the best options for your purple needs. T6 shoulders and Nyn'ja Tabi's are better off with 10hit in them.
(If the PS was for me, which I suspect it was)

I have a Moonkin with Imp FF that attends 99.9% of our raids, so I gem accordingly, as well as that I've mapped out my "final set of gear" in a spreadsheet which allows me to gem only once, without really compromising as I go on the upgrade path.

For the fights where the Moonkin isn't around, I have a Romulo's that I swap in. I'd rather be under the hit cap with the 5/5 gems, than permanently over it.
#1430SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Grunge
Originally Posted by pewsey View Post
(If the PS was for me, which I suspect it was)

I have a Moonkin with Imp FF that attends 99.9% of our raids, so I gem accordingly, as well as that I've mapped out my "final set of gear" in a spreadsheet which allows me to gem only once, without really compromising as I go on the upgrade path.

For the fights where the Moonkin isn't around, I have a Romulo's that I swap in. I'd rather be under the hit cap with the 5/5 gems, than permanently over it.
Lucky with the moonkin!
What I actually meant was that you decided to not take the belt bonus, but the dps difference between shoulder/chest over chest/belt is fractions at best anyway so it's understandable Without access to a second pair of t6 shoulders for Mother it makes even more sense to not go for the belt bonus.
#1431SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Septhaka
If this Envenom change that is rumored occurs I am curious what this will due to Combat Mutilation builds in the PvE DPS hierarchy. I don't think it changes cycles for Combat Mutilation much since Envenom already is superior to Eviscerate. But can the Envenom change boost Combat Mutilation within the range of the Combat weapon builds? Anyone seen any modeling on this?
#1432SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Aaberg
Edit: nevermind. I need to learn to read.
#1433SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Aayden
Energy cap out

2. Aldriana's 7 Commandments of Rogue DPS

The first step to success as a raiding rogue is to adhere to the 7 commandments of rogue DPS. Following these guidelines is by far the most important step to improving your DPS, and if you do not follow them, then nothing in the rest of this post will help you.

Don't die.
Don't do anything that risks wiping the raid.
Maximize your time on target.
Don't let your energy cap out.
Don't let SnD drop.
Use one of the spreadsheets to figure out your best cycle; this will usually be the highest rupture uptime cycle that doesn't violate rule 4 or 5.
Use your cooldowns.
Apologizes, I tried searching but couldnt find an answer - just a quick question:

What does it mean to not let your energy cap out? Should I be making sure I never have 100% energy (rare) or does it mean I should never let my energy drop to zero, or something entirely different.

Thanks in advance
#1434SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Telani
Originally Posted by Aayden View Post
Apologizes, I tried searching but couldnt find an answer - just a quick question:

What does it mean to not let your energy cap out? Should I be making sure I never have 100% energy (rare) or does it mean I should never let my energy drop to zero, or something entirely different.

Thanks in advance
It means to not let your energy get to 100%. If you do, you just wasted energy.
#1435SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Aldriana
You always want to get all the energy from every tick, proc, whatever, you have going. If your energy ever hits 100, this is no longer true; for instance, if you're at 85 energy and you get a natural regen tick - well, that tick only gave you 15 energy instead of the usual 20, so you just wasted 5 energy, which is 100 damage (or so) you'll never get back. Thus, it is important not to do this. Similarly, you don't want to trim combat potency procs, Rod of the Sun King procs, or any other source of regen. A good rule of thumb is that as soon as your energy gets over 65, you should be doing a move of some sort; as if you don't, you risk having a combat potency + regen tick happening back to back and wasting regen.
#1436SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Left
Originally Posted by Septhaka View Post
If this Envenom change that is rumored occurs I am curious what this will due to Combat Mutilation builds in the PvE DPS hierarchy. I don't think it changes cycles for Combat Mutilation much since Envenom already is superior to Eviscerate. But can the Envenom change boost Combat Mutilation within the range of the Combat weapon builds? Anyone seen any modeling on this?
Read the last few pages of this thread.

But it's a moot point anyway; this rumored change is not in the patch notes (which are up now):
WoW -> Test Realm Patch Notes
#1437SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Grunge
Originally Posted by Septhaka View Post
If this Envenom change that is rumored occurs I am curious what this will due to Combat Mutilation builds in the PvE DPS hierarchy. I don't think it changes cycles for Combat Mutilation much since Envenom already is superior to Eviscerate. But can the Envenom change boost Combat Mutilation within the range of the Combat weapon builds? Anyone seen any modeling on this?
Why do you think that? Almost all the math I've seen points that eviscerate is superior, especially towards the higher end as you gain ArP.
#1438SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Ozzmar
Umm, you mind providing some links to that math Grunge? The consensus on EJ seems to be that Envenom is better from what I have read.
#1439SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Aldriana
My impression was that the conclusion was that for a double-DP Mutilate rogue Envenom was better, but otherwise the loss of DP uptime put it behind Eviscerate.
#1440SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Mozzik
We're working on getting Illidan down, so I'm starting to review my gear set (Again) to figure out the perfect set up before sunwell... and two questions are bother me, tried to solve it with a spreadsheet but the results are mixed.

Firstly - At what point does it become worth it to replace a mongoose with executioner, which which hand? I'd previously been under the impression there wasn't a point (at least not a obtainable point) and the current spreadsheet still shows it as a 5-10 dps drop for me (OH vs MH). Sitting at 399 ArPen + WSC right now.

Second - WSC vs Lethality for my second trinket. I have DST as my primary and was under the impression WSC was better then Lethality (For Combat Swords). Old version of the spreadsheet had it that way (With Madness like a 0.3 DPS upgrade over the coil). New version (2.4.0.2) has Madness ~4 dps over WSC, and Lethality ~10 dps over WSC despite the same talent spec and gear. Thoughts on which actually ends up being better?
#1441SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Aldriana
So, Lethality was redone in a recent patch of the DPS sheet, which explains the changes in your numbers. I think there's still some debate as to how accurate the current model is. For a second opinion, I might try the Rogue Gear Sheet, which has a pretty fair model of it.

For me, it tends to be the case that Ashtongue Talisman scores higher on 7700 armor boss, and WSC higher on 6200 bosses, so I use them both to some extent. However, I've also found that the Ashtongue Talisman is hard to get the full benefit out of on highly interrupted fights, so I also use WSC on, like, Supremus. So on the whole: it varies some from fight to fight and depends on how much ArPen you have, whether your guild uses CoR, etc... but personally, I find that I use WSC more often than Ashtongue.

Re: Mongoose vs Executioner. If you're going to use it at all, you should use it on MH. I find the merits of it are similar to WSC above; on 6200 armor bosses, it's better, and on 7700 armor bosses, it's a bit behind. Since there are quite a few 6200 armor bosses, and the difference on 7700 bosses is relatively small, I prefer Executioner (with about 500 ArPen on Gear... but then, my guild is a devout user of CoR). Which is better for you again depends on the use of CoR as much as your exact gear.
#1442SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Snekyrussian
Missing past 66 hit

I've found what I can't explain and I'd like to see if anyone can help me with it.

Snekyrussian - WWS

Is a WWS from a recent Gruul run, and I'm missing ~3.5% of my sinister strikes with a 200+ hit rating, 5/5 precision, and 2/2 WEX. Here's my Armory

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...n=Snekyrussian

Note that I should have my DST equipped.
#1443SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Telani
Originally Posted by Snekyrussian View Post
I've found what I can't explain and I'd like to see if anyone can help me with it.

Snekyrussian - WWS

Is a WWS from a recent Gruul run, and I'm missing ~3.5% of my sinister strikes with a 200+ hit rating, 5/5 precision, and 2/2 WEX. Here's my Armory

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...n=Snekyrussian

Note that I should have my DST equipped.
Those are dodges and parries, not misses. Click the percentage to see the breakdown.
#1444SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Feist-Mok
Originally Posted by Snekyrussian View Post
I've found what I can't explain and I'd like to see if anyone can help me with it.

Snekyrussian - WWS

Is a WWS from a recent Gruul run, and I'm missing ~3.5% of my sinister strikes with a 200+ hit rating, 5/5 precision, and 2/2 WEX. Here's my Armory

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...n=Snekyrussian

Note that I should have my DST equipped.
You were parried 9 times, and dodged 11. You're Sinister Strikes didn't miss once. Considering that your expertise is relatively low, thats actually pretty good.
#1445SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3rampage01
I know this isn't probably the right place to ask but I don't know where else to get reliable information from. After two months of break I am thinking of raiding again and before I go back to Black Temple I would like to clarify something. I have been reading a lot of stuff about rogues vanishing out of Teron Gorefiend's shadow of death debuff while the spell is being casted. This apparently doesn't place the debuff on you or anyone else for one cycle. Is this true and if it is, is their any certain way to do it? I read this post where someone said if you vanish too early he places the debuff on someone else.

If anyone could provide any further information about this it will be appreciated.
#1446SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3enno
Originally Posted by rampage01 View Post
I know this isn't probably the right place to ask but I don't know where else to get reliable information from. After two months of break I am thinking of raiding again and before I go back to Black Temple I would like to clarify something. I have been reading a lot of stuff about rogues vanishing out of Teron Gorefiend's shadow of death debuff while the spell is being casted. This apparently doesn't place the debuff on you or anyone else for one cycle. Is this true and if it is, is their any certain way to do it? I read this post where someone said if you vanish too early he places the debuff on someone else.

If anyone could provide any further information about this it will be appreciated.

Yes it's true.. Basicly all you need to do is enable target of target (so you can see who teron targets) and watch his castbar (use a addon like Quartz or something). If he targets you, he will start casting .. hit that vanish fast. That's it.. nothing else to it.

PS: this kind of question belongs more in the Public Discussion section.
#1447SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Domo
Good day fellow rogues,

I am new to this forum and I've been reading through a lot of the information that was posted by many experienced rogue around the community. First, I'd like to thank to these fellow rogues for sharing their experience and informations.

After reading all the information regarding the combo points. I have been following the combat cycle on how to max out the sustained DPS during raid. I seem to encounter a problem about energy regeneration.

I notice with 2x T4, I should be doing 1cp SnD - 5cp Rupture. Unfortunately, I seems to have to spam my SS on a boss to get my cp as soon as I can without the use of Adrenaline Rush. Procs on Combat Potency doesn't seems to be filling in the energy I need to quickly apply 5 cp and throw the rupture on the boss. It seems I keep getting out damaged by the rogues that are wearing s1 + 1-2pc of Season 2 arena gear rogues that stacks up a lot of crits.

If I use my Blade Flurry + Abbacus + Battle of War, it will probably come close enough to have 5cp rupture and hoping Ruthlessness would proc a extra cp for me to apply another 1 cp of SnD. Can any experience rogue explain to direct me on what I am doing wrong? I would really appreciate any tips and information. I am still learning and hoping to be better at my class so please do not flame me if I made a mistake.

---

Current spec:
Shadowstep Hemo (I was specced combat sword 2 weeks ago, using one of the build that was provided from this post. Sorry for posting my spec instead of linking my armory because server is down tonight and there is no way I could switch my gears before I log, plus it's inaccurate since I am specced differently at the moment.)

Set bonus:
2/4 - T4 (Helm + glove)

Necklace:
Choker of Vile Intent

Shoulder:
Bladed Shoulderpads of Merciless

Chest:
Chestguard of the Conniver

Back:
Dory's Embrace (Drape of the Dark Reavers never dropped after numerous run so I gave up.)

Pant:
Midnight Legging (Yes, current legging does suck. Unfortunately the skulker never dropped for me in Kara or any other pant drops from VR and so on.)

Belt:
Gronn-Stitched Girdle

Feet:
Nyn'jah's Tabi Boots

Glove:
Master Assassin Wristwraps

Ring:
Violet Signet of the Master Assassin
Ring of a Thousand Marks

Weapon:
Season one - Gladiator swords both enchanted with mongoose

Thrown:
Felsteel Whisper Knives

Trinket:
Bloodlust Brooch + Abacus of Violent Odds

---
#1448SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3koaschten
Originally Posted by Domo View Post
*snip*

I notice with 2x T4, I should be doing 1cp SnD - 5cp Rupture. Unfortunately, I seems to have to spam my SS on a boss to get my cp as soon as I can without the use of Adrenaline Rush. Procs on Combat Potency doesn't seems to be filling in the energy I need to quickly apply 5 cp and throw the rupture on the boss. It seems I keep getting out damaged by the rogues that are wearing s1 + 1-2pc of Season 2 arena gear rogues that stacks up a lot of crits.

If I use my Blade Flurry + Abbacus + Battle of War, it will probably come close enough to have 5cp rupture and hoping Ruthlessness would proc a extra cp for me to apply another 1 cp of SnD. Can any experience rogue explain to direct me on what I am doing wrong? I would really appreciate any tips and information. I am still learning and hoping to be better at my class so please do not flame me if I made a mistake.

---

Current spec:
Shadowstep Hemo (I was specced combat sword 2 weeks ago, using one of the build that was provided from this post. Sorry for posting my spec instead of linking my armory because server is down tonight and there is no way I could switch my gears before I log, plus it's inaccurate since I am specced differently at the moment.)
*snip*
You should consider speccing combat sword before complaining that 1s/5r doesnt work out for you or someone is out-damaging you in a PvE situation with your PvP spec. If the discribed problems pertain, the use of one of the spreadsheets will give you a deeper insight on what you could improve on, be it gems, enchants or simply using another cycle.
#1449SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 songster
You don't get CP procs if you aren't specced for CP! With a shadowstep spec (or even tri-spec Hemo), you should be using something between 3s/5r and 5s/5r. That's because the lack of Combat Potency means you don't have enough energy to sustain the tighter 1s/5r cycle. If you couldn't sustain 1s/5r even as combat swords, then something's wrong - most likely a lack of +hit meaning you don't hit with your OH enough to get the CP procs necessary to sustain the cycle.

Also, make doubly sure you're always attacking from behind. Attacking from the front means you get parried, which
(a) gets the tank killed
(b) lowers your DPS
(c) loses you a chunk of your CP procs, lowering DPS even more
#1450SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Papaduval
Originally Posted by songster View Post
You don't get CP procs if you aren't specced for CP! With a shadowstep spec (or even tri-spec Hemo), you should be using something between 3s/5r and 5s/5r.

I'm managing to sustain 1s/5r cycle with tri-spec hemo, fairly easily.
#1451SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3tenaki
Originally Posted by Papaduval View Post
I'm managing to sustain 1s/5r cycle with tri-spec hemo, fairly easily.
Yes, it is easy with tri-spec hemo because of the lower cost of hemo. I find myself varying between 1s/5r or 2s/5r depending on Ruthlessness procs.
#1452SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Domo
Originally Posted by koaschten View Post
You should consider speccing combat sword before complaining that 1s/5r doesnt work out for you or someone is out-damaging you in a PvE situation with your PvP spec. If the discribed problems pertain, the use of one of the spreadsheets will give you a deeper insight on what you could improve on, be it gems, enchants or simply using another cycle.
@koaschten
I apologize for the mis-understanding regarding to my previous post. I did state that I was specced "combat sword" 2 weeks ago and that now I am specced shadowstep due to the reason that I will be focusing in finishing up my arenas. I do understand how combat sword spec regarding to the procs on Ruthlessness and Combat Potency. Please simply ignore my "Current spec" and replace it with Combat sword spec as it was 2 weeks ago. I just don't want to confuse anyone, if they decide to click on my armory and find out I have a different spec than I have listed.

Yes, I did use Rogue's Gear Spreadsheet created by Aldriana and as well the Rogue DPS Spreadsheet.
The result was 730+ DPS with no raid buff. Raid buffed comes close to 1600+ DPS. I was also following the "optimal hit" that was stated using rogue's gear spreadsheet, also following the recommended gem listing that the spreadsheet recommend.

Stats info when I was specced combat sword:

AP: 1796
Hit: 233
Exp: 10
Agi: 401
Crit: 25%

---

Originally Posted by songster View Post
You don't get CP procs if you aren't specced for CP! With a shadowstep spec (or even tri-spec Hemo), you should be using something between 3s/5r and 5s/5r. That's because the lack of Combat Potency means you don't have enough energy to sustain the tighter 1s/5r cycle. If you couldn't sustain 1s/5r even as combat swords, then something's wrong - most likely a lack of +hit meaning you don't hit with your OH enough to get the CP procs necessary to sustain the cycle.

Also, make doubly sure you're always attacking from behind. Attacking from the front means you get parried, which
(a) gets the tank killed
(b) lowers your DPS
(c) loses you a chunk of your CP procs, lowering DPS even more
@Songster
I have always been fighting behind the target, and understanding the effects of less parry, dodge, and more crit. I control my aggro fairly well with the use of threat meter, and feint. I have thought it could be the amount of feint, but it couldn't be possible to really affect my DPS that much over a 10 minutes fight when I use them for approx 5-6 times. I do use vanish to wipe my threat after a while, which I insantly reopens with garrote and continue with 1s 5r rotation as a "combat sword" rogue.

Thanks again for the fast response, really appreciate it.
#1453SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3hedningen
@Domo

It seems that you are a bit low in hit if you can't get enough energy back from CP.
Try regem for hit and hope for the WSC from VR.
Unless you have problems with Meta Gem activation restrictions go for max hit gems on the legs.
#1454SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Jakani
If you're inputting your gear and spec into the sheet, and you're following its recommendations, your problem is likely due to the encounter or the RNG game.

1. If you're doing encounters which require movement, you're frequently out of melee range and thus not getting CP procs, which ruins your cycle.
2. The cycle recommendation may be very tight for your specific gearset. It will average energy gains for you to determine your cycle, but if for whatever reason you are starved from CP procs for a bit, you won't be able to maintain a cycle.

To resolve these issues, you can expand to a slightly longer cycle that will drop SnD less in exchange for less rupture uptime, resuting in an increase to your DPS. Try a 2s/5r cycle for a bit and see how it feels.

The other thing you can do is if you find yourself at 4 CPs with a few seconds left on SnD and not enough energy to get that 5th CP, just do a 4 CP rupture so you can refresh SnD before it drops; that is more important.
#1455SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3ispen
Hello fellow rogues,

I have a few problems with my dps and I hope this is the right place to get some suggestions.

I don't want to give my armory link but I ll try to summarize my unbuffed stats:

3/4 t6, 319 Hit, 30% crit, 1970 AP, no expertise from gear, no haste from gear.

Main Hand: S3 Sword, Off Hand: Warglaive
Trinkets: Bloodlust Brouch ( Oh yeah, DST did not drop for 6 months) &Ashtongue talisman of lethality

In melee group we have Enhancement Shaman, Blood Craze Warrior, Feral Druid and 2 Rogues.
Curse of Recklessness, Expose Weakness on Boss, I use major agility pot, 20 hit food, haste pots almost every cooldown, drums of battle etc.

According to many spreadsheets, I am supposed to do above 1.9k dps. However, I never seen that number so far. The maximum dps I had was on 3rd boss of Hyjal and it was 1.8k. I usually do around 1.6k.

Ah also I try to use 3snd 5 rupture rotation ( I dont know thats a good rotation for maximizing uptime of Ashtongue)

This was really unsatisfying and since sunwell is approaching I want to improvise with your suggestions.
#1456SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Dontmindme
The DPS listed by the spreadsheets is a theoretical average for a mythical fight where a Rogue can just stand in place behind a target and wail away. In practice, fights don't usually work that way. Any forced movement and you will not be matching the modeled numbers. Tidewalker, if you never get Graved, is the type of fight modeled by the spreadsheets.

So, generally speaking, it sounds like your DPS is consistent with the spreadsheets if you factor in lost DPS from having to move or checking up.
#1457SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Zilikben
Originally Posted by ispen View Post
Hello fellow rogues,

I have a few problems with my dps and I hope this is the right place to get some suggestions.

I don't want to give my armory link but I ll try to summarize my unbuffed stats:

3/4 t6, 319 Hit, 30% crit, 1970 AP, no expertise from gear, no haste from gear.

Main Hand: S3 Sword, Off Hand: Warglaive
Trinkets: Bloodlust Brouch ( Oh yeah, DST did not drop for 6 months) &Ashtongue talisman of lethality

In melee group we have Enhancement Shaman, Blood Craze Warrior, Feral Druid and 2 Rogues.
Curse of Recklessness, Expose Weakness on Boss, I use major agility pot, 20 hit food, haste pots almost every cooldown, drums of battle etc.

According to many spreadsheets, I am supposed to do above 1.9k dps. However, I never seen that number so far. The maximum dps I had was on 3rd boss of Hyjal and it was 1.8k. I usually do around 1.6k.

Ah also I try to use 3snd 5 rupture rotation ( I dont know thats a good rotation for maximizing uptime of Ashtongue)

This was really unsatisfying and since sunwell is approaching I want to improvise with your suggestions.
From a quick glance at your armory I can tell you that your gems are all wrong. replace the 5agi\5hit in your helm with a 10hit, replace the 5crit\7stam in your shoulders with 5agi\7stam, replace the 10ap\7stam in your chest with 5agi\7stam replace the other two with 10hit, put 10hit in your gloves, two 10hits in your belt, replace the 5crit\7stam in your boots with a 10hit. Basically, there is no reason to ever have 5crit\7stam gems in your gear. Obviously this is just scratching the surface but you may as well at least have your gear gemed right.
#1458SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Aldriana
Originally Posted by Zilikben View Post
From a quick glance at your armory I can tell you that your gems are all wrong. replace the 5agi\5hit in your helm with a 10hit, replace the 5crit\7stam in your shoulders with 5agi\7stam, replace the 10ap\7stam in your chest with 5agi\7stam replace the other two with 10hit, put 10hit in your gloves, two 10hits in your belt, replace the 5crit\7stam in your boots with a 10hit. Basically, there is no reason to ever have 5crit\7stam gems in your gear. Obviously this is just scratching the surface but you may as well at least have your gear gemed right.
5agi/5hit vs 10hit is sort of a matter of personal preference; thus, while I agree that replacing 5crit/7sta with 5agi/7sta, the overall trend of socketing everything with 10 hit is not necessarily something you need to follow. In particular, I wouldn't waste my time with regemming Cursed Vision, Slayer's Gloves, or Slayer's Legs. Fundamentally, the only places where your socketing is notably questionable is the chest (which isn't best in slot even pre-2.4, so I wouldn't change it - I'd just make sure to gem Slayer's with a Shifting and 2 Glinting/Rigids when you get it), and shoulders/boots where you should indeed use shifting for the blue slots.

It also should be kept in mind that the grand total damage increase from making those gem changes will be less than 10 DPS. Probably more like 5. So I doubt I'd even bother regemming anything, as I suspect your guild - if it's anything like my guild - isn't too fond of the idea of burning epic gems for a 1 DPS increase each. It's more something to keep in mind going forward.
#1459SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Paladron
Mace Spec Rogues

I know this post is devoted to PVE spec rogues, however I have built an alt Rogue which I am having a blast playing. I leveled up Blacksmithing and I have Dragonmaw and the BoneCracker. I was wondering if anyone new of a guide for building a mace spec'ed rogue. A good talent point layout. PVP combat combinations. Tricks and tactics.. Stuff like that. I wouldn't mind trying swords, but I have invested way to much time and money into Blacksmith for the damn mace. Is mace spec ideal for pvp? If I want to keep someone in stun lock should I focus on hit rating and crit? Any information regarding building a PVP rogue would be greatly appreacited.

Here is a link to my armory page, remember this is just an alt and for fun..

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...&n=Slashartist
#1460SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Aldriana
For PvP advice, I would recommend visiting this thread: [Rogue] PVP Stat Standards/advice

For optimizing PvE dps, I'd try the spreadsheets.
#1461SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Hershey
Agi vs AP

As I was reading I saw the gem socketing obviously was Hit rating first but then it went for Agility and there were no +20 or +16AP gems or +24ap to gloves... is there any spreadsheets about how much better agility is? and is that only because it scales with things like BoK and the like
#1462SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Ozzmar
On the talents page of the spreadsheet, there's a button to calculate your AEP. AEP is basically how much each stat is worth relative to 1 point of Agility.

And yes, you're on the right track with your thinking. Agility is just a better investment for your item budget as it adds to crit, AP, etc and scales with BoK.
#1463SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Cloak-SH
Originally Posted by rampage01 View Post
I know this isn't probably the right place to ask but I don't know where else to get reliable information from. After two months of break I am thinking of raiding again and before I go back to Black Temple I would like to clarify something. I have been reading a lot of stuff about rogues vanishing out of Teron Gorefiend's shadow of death debuff while the spell is being casted. This apparently doesn't place the debuff on you or anyone else for one cycle. Is this true and if it is, is their any certain way to do it? I read this post where someone said if you vanish too early he places the debuff on someone else.

If anyone could provide any further information about this it will be appreciated.
Again not that it belongs here but...

This is a bad idea regardless of wether or not its true. Once a person gets thier mobs down they use thier ghost with the leftover time to go assist the next person. From the first ghost on it gets progressively easier.

If you break that chain you gain rdps on the boss but at the cost of additional chance on the mini-game of having a person fail utterly and wipe the raid due to constructs getting loose.

Aside: We use the cloak and neck for SR for teron, if you're trying to burn him down faster because people/tank are dropping due to oom healers id recommend adding SR before trying to vanish out of the debuff.
#1464SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Rerox
Originally Posted by Vulajin View Post
Your base chance to be dodged by a raid boss with any attack is thought to be 6.5%. For each 3.94 expertise rating you equip, you gain 1 expertise, reducing your chance to be dodged by 0.25% (thus it takes exactly 15.77 expertise rating to reduce your chance to be dodged by 1%). Thus, we can calculate expertise caps for various combinations of talents and racial abilities:
Just wondering if the 6,5% dodge- and parry-chance of a boss can be backed up by hard data. I tend to accept the value but the main belief seems to be 5,6% due to "+3 levels".

Seeing the huge ammount of "expertise" coming with Patch 2.4 and Sunwell items it's quite a difference if you need 102 or 83 expertise rating to reach the cap.
#1465SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Left
Originally Posted by Rerox View Post
Just wondering if the 6,5% dodge- and parry-chance of a boss can be backed up by hard data. I tend to accept the value but the main belief seems to be 5,6% due to "+3 levels".

Seeing the huge ammount of "expertise" coming with Patch 2.4 and Sunwell items it's quite a difference if you need 102 or 83 expertise rating to reach the cap.
It's mostly based on WWS parses. From WWS, observed dodge rates for bosses are in the 6.3-6.6% range, with parry being approximately double that (12.6-13.2%). Take a look at parses from the tank's perspective, as that gives the most accurate figures. (Also, remember to add in any percentage reduction that the tank's expertise is taking off.)

It's empirical, and basically appears to be a good bit about the 5.6% figure you would expect.
#1466SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Rerox
Originally Posted by Left View Post
It's empirical, and basically appears to be a good bit about the 5.6% figure you would expect.
Empirical data is great, but it needs to be backed up by theoretical formula that can give a reason for the data.
So far I couldn't find any formula that could explain the +0.9% dodge/parry per level properly.
#1467SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Cybelirrae
Originally Posted by ispen View Post
According to many spreadsheets, I am supposed to do above 1.9k dps. However, I never seen that number so far. The maximum dps I had was on 3rd boss of Hyjal and it was 1.8k. I usually do around 1.6k.

Ah also I try to use 3snd 5 rupture rotation ( I dont know thats a good rotation for maximizing uptime of Ashtongue)

This was really unsatisfying and since sunwell is approaching I want to improvise with your suggestions.
Also, you have to look at the rest of your raid's overall dps. If your guild kills gorefiend in 4.5 minutes your personal dps will be lower than if your guild kills gorefiend in 3 minutes, for example. That is partly because of our Adrenaline Rush cooldown. The faster your kills the higher your DPS will be as a general matter until you reach the 5 minute mark and then it sort of resets itself. Missing DST is obviously huge and when you get your MH warglaive your DPS will skyrocket. The 4 piece bonus is nice as well. Sounds like you are doing most things properly. As your raid gears up, your DPS will go up. Also, I prefer a 4 or 5 snd 5 rupture rotation when I am using ashtongue. I think in one of these threads aldriana showed that this was preferable.
#1468SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Shaker
Originally Posted by Rerox View Post
Empirical data is great, but it needs to be backed up by theoretical formula that can give a reason for the data.
So far I couldn't find any formula that could explain the +0.9% dodge/parry per level properly.
5% base + .5% chance per enemy level > player level seems to point at 6.5% being semi-accurate.

5% + .5(73-70) = 6.5%

Edit: Changed weaponskill to enemy level, as while enemy defense vs weaponskill is possible, it's abstractable by 'enemy level' and doesn't get into the wacky weaponskill debates. :P
#1469SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Aldriana
Note that the .1 in Shaker's equation comes from the scaling of miss chance against higher-level mobs; while it's been well-established for *players* that the conversion is .04, it has been shown fairly conclusively that bosses have different scaling than players.

Now, the thing that's always bothered me about that particular formula is the fact that hit has the significant discontinuity when the defense difference surpasses 10, and as dodge does not it doesn't strike me as necessarily the case that the same scaling should apply. But as it has better agreement with observed data, it's the number we've been going with until someone finds a better one.
#1470SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Dontmindme
I also remember doing some testing vs. level 60 mobs and did not see any dodges or parries against them. Assuming 0.5% per level, that agrees with that number. Just like you get no dodges or parries vs 57 Servants.

The question is whether Parry is...
Level 70 10.0%
Level 71 11.0%
Level 72 12.0%
Level 73 13.0%

or whether it does something like hit did and is...
Level 70 5.0%
Level 71 5.5%
Level 72 6.0%
Level 73 13.0%
#1471SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Vulajin
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
5) While we're on the topic of stat weightings: am I correct in assuming that you made these stat estimates with very few AP buffs? Since, for instance, with the default gear in the 0.9.3 Gear Sheet (which is mid-to-high end T6), I get very different stat weightings:

Str: 1.1
Agi 2.3
Crit: 1.9
Hit: 2.64
Expertise: 2.9
Armor Pen: .33
Haste 2.26
Metagem: 102

Which is really pretty different than what you have posted. I suspect the answer is one of buffs, but I don't think the default buffs in the Gear sheet are *that* unreasonable for T6 guild, so... if you're posting extremely low-buff numbers, it might be worth making note of that fact; and I for one would recommend posting higher-buff numbers, since, lets be honest, how many rogues raid without Blessing of Might and Battle Shout, even if they don't have much else?
I went back and evaluated a set of best-of-T6 gear using your spreadsheet, including a very standard assortment of buffs to be expected in a 25-man raid, except with BoK turned off (since I feel its effect is easy to multiply in afterwards, though I may be mistaken). The only difference between the set I evaluated in your sheet and the set I used on mine for the current version of the first post is that I included [Dragonspine Trophy] when using your sheet. Here are the resulting stat weights:

Str: 1.00
Agi: 1.98
Hit: 2.37
Crit: 1.70
Exp: 2.60
Haste: 2.16
ArP: 0.33
Meta: 99.67

These agree more with my stat weights and less with yours, and I was very much at a loss as to how I obtained such different results until I realized that you used the default buffs. The default buffs in your sheet assume no Unleashed Rage. Unleashed Rage would increase the DPS contribution of Strength, Agility, and Attack Power by about 10% each, thereby decreasing the EP weights of the other stats. Your default buffs also assume Blessing of Kings, which would increase Strength and Agility by another 10% each. Here's what I got by checking the exact same gear and buff setup, except with UR turned off and BoK turned on:

Str: 1.10
Agi: 2.22
Hit: 2.47
Crit: 1.77
Exp: 2.71
Haste: 2.28
ArP: 0.35
Meta: 109.02

This seems to agree slightly more with your values. Still, it's obvious that certain buffs make pretty big differences in the EP weights. Given that, what do readers feel is the best approach for this issue? Is it prudent to assume that a rogue in raids always or never gets an enhancement shaman? Prudent to assume that a rogue does or does not receive BoK? What other buffs are prudent to assume? Here's the set I used for the current version of the first post:

Power Word: Fortitude (2/2 talented)
Mark of the Wild (5/5 talented)
Battle Shout (5/5 talented, no [Solarian's Sapphire])
Blessing of Might (0/5 talented)
Unleashed Rage
Leader of the Pack
Hunter's Mark (5/5 talented)
Flask of Relentless Assault
Spicy Hot Talbuk
Strength of Earth Totem (2/2 talented)
Curse of Recklessness
Sunder Armor
Faerie Fire
Mangle
Bloodlust (x1)
Windfury Totem (2/2 talented)
Blood Frenzy
#1472SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Aldriana
It seems to me the right approach is to pick a sort of intermediate set of buffs and work from there. For instance, in my current guild, we always have 3 - and sometimes as many as 5 - paladins in all raids, so kings is 100%. But until about 2 months ago, we didn't have an enhancement shaman at all - hence no Unleashed Rage. But I'm sure there are other guilds that always raid with an enhancement shaman, but rarely get more than 2 pallies so no kings. So I think the only reasonable option is to try it with a couple different buff sets and then pick something sort of intermediate amongst the range of values. But really, this just reiterates how important it is to use a spreadsheet if you want accurate information.
#1473SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Grawknar
Hello EJ rogues,

I have some things I'd like feedback/thoughts on:

-The spec choice ranking places Mace + Swords as -1.80% less overall damage than CSwords. I was wondering if it was common practice for anyone who chooses this spec to obtain Dragonstrike. I currently have the first phase of the weapon and was wondering if rogue players who've tried this weapon combo can actually say that the weapon's proc is so awesome for Combat Potency that it would seem to make the spec feel much better than -1.80% ? Sorry, I tried to put this question as well as I can.

-Upon acquisition of the Swiftsteel Bludgeon, is this weapon significantly better than the S2 OH slicer to merit a respec into full combat maces?
#1474SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Professor Hurt
Originally Posted by Grawknar View Post
Hello EJ rogues,

I have some things I'd like feedback/thoughts on:

-The spec choice ranking places Mace + Swords as -1.80% less overall damage than CSwords. I was wondering if it was common practice for anyone who chooses this spec to obtain Dragonstrike. I currently have the first phase of the weapon and was wondering if rogue players who've tried this weapon combo can actually say that the weapon's proc is so awesome for Combat Potency that it would seem to make the spec feel much better than -1.80% ? Sorry, I tried to put this question as well as I can.

-Upon acquisition of the Swiftsteel Bludgeon, is this weapon significantly better than the S2 OH slicer to merit a respec into full combat maces?
These questions (plus many more) can be answered by downloading the latest rogue spreadsheet(s). See below:

[Rogue] DPS Spreadsheet
Rogue Gear Spreadsheet

See the threads linked above to download the sheets and answer any subsequent questions questions regarding their usage.
#1475SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3llamakiller
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (sword-fist-hemo)

this is the spec i was thinking about... i came here hoping to find some information on it but i guess it wasnt posted due to the lack of "11 assassination points of raiding" (which i adamantly loathe)in my opinion RS is overrated(a one in 5 chance for 25 energy) compared to ruthlessness( 60% chance to gain the equivilance of 35 40 45 or 60 energy based on your combo builder)

while i know im going to get flamed and this post is going to be disregaurded anyone willing to provide insight id be glad to listen (i have S1 MH fist and S2 OH fist as well as twin S1 daggers and S1 OH sword)

the reason behind this spec is because i was thinking the hemo buff would help our melee heavy kara group (downed up to curator on a good night but shade and illhoof are whipping us) because we have 2 rogues 2 warriors (tank and fury) 3-4 druids (boomkin(optional), feral tank, 2 healers) lock priest and the occasional hunter when the druid isnt there.. i think the hemo would benifit the group more then constant SS spam
#1476SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Latito
Originally Posted by llamakiller View Post
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (sword-fist-hemo)

this is the spec i was thinking about... i came here hoping to find some information on it but i guess it wasnt posted due to the lack of "11 assassination points of raiding" (which i adamantly loathe)in my opinion RS is overrated(a one in 5 chance for 25 energy) compared to ruthlessness( 60% chance to gain the equivilance of 35 40 45 or 60 energy based on your combo builder)

while i know im going to get flamed and this post is going to be disregaurded anyone willing to provide insight id be glad to listen (i have S1 MH fist and S2 OH fist as well as twin S1 daggers and S1 OH sword)

the reason behind this spec is because i was thinking the hemo buff would help our melee heavy kara group (downed up to curator on a good night but shade and illhoof are whipping us) because we have 2 rogues 2 warriors (tank and fury) 3-4 druids (boomkin(optional), feral tank, 2 healers) lock priest and the occasional hunter when the druid isnt there.. i think the hemo would benifit the group more then constant SS spam
Relentless Strikes isn't a one in 5 chance - its a 1 in 5 chance PER combo point. On a 5-point finisher, its gaurenteed. A standard Combat swords build will generate roughly ~30-40% of its energy from Relentless Strikes (well, 30-40% of the non-tick based regen). Ruthlessness does NOT gain the equivalence of 35-60 energy (who the hell would use an untalented SS.. ever?). You gain a combo point. If you gained the energy, you would also be getting the dmg of the Hemo/SS/BS which is obviously not the case. Ruthlessness basically just allows for shorter cycles, resulting in higher finisher uptime.

Going Tri-Spec hemo isn't a bad idea for a Kara-progression guild. Generally you + a tank will eat up all the charges anyways, but having more melee just makes for an even lower chance of losing some of the debuff benefit. That said, using a more standard Tri-spec Hemo will net you a dps gain.
#1477SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Aldriana
Well, for an assessment of how the spec performs, I'd plug it into one of the spreadsheets. I'd then plug in the cookiecutter 11/28/22 TSH build - or perhaps the 11/21/29 variant, as you're mixing weapons, and see how your DPS compares. I'd be willing to bet you'll find that one of the traditional TSH builds does more damage.

The problem with the spec the way you've entered it is that fundamentally you just don't have the points to take two weapon specializations in a tri-spec build. It's not that they aren't good talents - there's just other things that are better. And in particular: Relentless Strikes is better.

Now, I know you say you don't buy into the value of RS, and you're certainly entitled to your own opinion. You are, of course, wrong, but you're still entitled to it. Allow me to explain the error in your logic:

Relentless Strikes has a 20% chance per combo point of returning 25 energy. Thus, every combo point you generate effectively returns 5 energy. Thus, having Relentless Strikes is like lowering the cost of Hemo from 35 to 30. Not having it is totally equivalent to running combat swords without Imp Sinister Strike - you can do it, but I don't think anyone's going to reasonably argue that it's a good idea.

Ruthlessness, on the other hand, just adds combo points - not energy as you assert, combo points. The thing to remember is that SS, Hemo, and BS do more than give combo points - they do damage in their own right - a lot of damage. As I recall, something like 80% of the damage contribution of these moves is due to the direct damage they do, with the rest being damage gained from the combo point. Is gaining the combo point good? Sure. It lets you tighten up your cycle and get something of a damage increase. But the advantage from doing so is vastly dwarfed by the damage gained by having more energy to do more Sinister Strikes.

And, for that matter: Relentless Strikes adds more combo points anyway. If you are, say, running Hemo with a 5s5r cycle, you're regenerating 50 energy - 1.4 Hemos - every cycle from Relentless Strikes. 3/3 Ruthlessness only gives 1.2. So not only are you getting energy - and thus real damage - back, you're *also* generating more combo points.

Past that: the real comparison is not RS vs Ruthlessness, as you're never making that tradeoff. Lets, for instance, consider the energy regen from RS vs, say, Adrenaline Rush (which is in your build). AR gives 150 energy once every 5 minutes. In those 5 minutes, you regenerate 3000 energy the normal way, which is sufficient energy for 75 hemos and 15 5-point finishers. Thus RS, in this time, generates 375 energy - 2.5 times as much as AR. So if the choice is to trade off AR for RS - RS is unquestionably better.

Fundamentally: when people say 11 points assa is essential for any good build, they know what they're talking about. It really is that good.

So, that's the major problem with the build you outlined, and the reason why 11/28/22 and 11/21/29 are the accepted Hemo builds.
#1478SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Vulajin
Originally Posted by llamakiller View Post
Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft (sword-fist-hemo)

this is the spec i was thinking about... i came here hoping to find some information on it but i guess it wasnt posted due to the lack of "11 assassination points of raiding" (which i adamantly loathe)in my opinion RS is overrated(a one in 5 chance for 25 energy) compared to ruthlessness( 60% chance to gain the equivilance of 35 40 45 or 60 energy based on your combo builder)

while i know im going to get flamed and this post is going to be disregaurded anyone willing to provide insight id be glad to listen (i have S1 MH fist and S2 OH fist as well as twin S1 daggers and S1 OH sword)

the reason behind this spec is because i was thinking the hemo buff would help our melee heavy kara group (downed up to curator on a good night but shade and illhoof are whipping us) because we have 2 rogues 2 warriors (tank and fury) 3-4 druids (boomkin(optional), feral tank, 2 healers) lock priest and the occasional hunter when the druid isnt there.. i think the hemo would benifit the group more then constant SS spam
Your misconception about Ruthlessness is that it is rewarding you with energy in the same way that Relentless Strikes does. This couldn't be further from the truth. Rather, Ruthlessness allows you to spend more energy per time on finishers than on regular attacks. More finishers is a good thing, but it comes at the cost of SS/BS/Hemo usage per time.

However, with Relentless Strikes (which works very well in concert with Ruthlessness), you can use Slice and Dice and Ruptures with a proper cycle to spend nearly all of your energy per time on SS/BS/Hemo instead of finishers. This greatly increases your overall DPS (since you're getting the same finishers off and still spending more energy per time towards SS/BS/Hemo) while also lessening the negative portion of Ruthlessness' effect, improving that talent simultaneously.
#1479SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3llamakiller
thank you for the feedback and pointing out my blatant oversight on RS (srry for my nubness im too used to pvp where the combo points dont matter as much as bursting the enemy down as soon as humanly possible)

im personally tired of pvp welfare epics seeing that i own a few of them

i guess the reason behind me not using the 11 points is due to pvp (i was lolstep for leveling and pvp)

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

this is a changed spec with RS (thank you guys for your wisdom lol) but still sword fist hemo (in an acceptable range in my opinion)

atm i am Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

its not the normal spec but ive gotten #1 in the groups damage meter raid wide (we all keep personal meters for absolute calculation) since were in kara i figured the improved evis would help me out alot

i personally dislike cookiecutter builds which is why i make these weird specs

and into regaurds to the energy bit with ruthlessness- its just energy saved... i prolly should have worded it better
#1480SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Balkoth
Originally Posted by llamakiller View Post
i personally dislike cookiecutter builds which is why i make these weird specs
Cookie cutter builds exist because they are the BEST. People figure out what is most effective, and that becomes the cookie cutter spec. If you're trying to test other variations to find a NEW cookie cutter build, fine. But just not using a cookie cutter build because you "personally dislike them" is like saying you don't like being the best you can be.

Vary from a cookie cutter build if and ONLY if you think it's an improvement in some way. If you have found some hidden gem that we haven't, we'd love to hear it. And if it's better than what we already have, we'll gladly switch to the new build. Which makes it a cookie cutter build. See the issue with your thinking?
#1481SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Ashere
Originally Posted by llamakiller View Post
It's different, I won't match 11/28/22, 11/27/23 or 11/21/29, but it's not horribly far behind. But don't underestimate Weapon Expertise, on a per-point basis, WE is better than Sword Spec, and definitely better then Fist Spec. So if you really want both into your fist+sword hemo tri-spec, I'd put only 3 points into each and 2 into WE. (or 5 into sword spec and 1 into fists, but that would be sidetracking the build even further, even if it improves DPS.)

Anyway, I don't want to get into a fight over viability again, so let's keep it at this: if you're happy with it, and your guild is okay with it, then go and enjoy. It's not perfect, that's why there are such things as cookie cutter builds, but it's not horrible either.
#1482SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Emerald
5. Gear Selection - Please consider this section of dubious merit until this disclaimer is removed.

In this section, rather than listing comparisons between every piece of gear a rogue could conceivably obtain, I will describe a general-purpose system for comparing pieces of gear against one another. To compare two pieces, you can give each stat a "weight" proportional to its DPS contribution relative to other stats. Let's call this weight Equivalence Points (EP). We'll define 1 AP = 1 EP; that is, 1 attack power is worth exactly 1 Equivalence Point. Now we can use a spreadsheet to determine how much DPS a single point of any stat provides relative to a single point of attack power, and convert those directly into EP values.

To utilize the EP weights, simply take a piece of gear and multiply each stat bonus on that piece by the EP weight for that stat. In case of gem sockets, figure out how you would gem the piece in actual use (instructions for gemming are given in the following section), and multiply the stats provided by each gem by their respective EP weights. Any stat provided that does not have direct DPS value (e.g. stamina, dodge rating, resilience) can be valued at 0 EP. Examples of using the EP weights are provided below.

Tier 4: the following is a table of EP values for sword (16/41+4), dagger (15/41/5), Hemo+sword (11/28/22), and Hemo+Deadliness (11/21/29) builds, assuming a projected tier 4 level of gear and buffs (10-man raid).

Tier 4 EP    | 16/41+4  | 15/41/5  | 11/28/22 | 11/21/29 
Strength     |   1.00   |   1.00   |   1.00   |   1.00   
Agility      |   1.92   |   1.85   |   1.80   |   1.78   
Atk. Power   |   1.00   |   1.00   |   1.00   |   1.00   
Hit Rating   |   2.17   |   2.03   |   2.04   |   1.87   
Crit Rating  |   1.61   |   1.48   |   1.44   |   1.42   
Exp. Rating  |   2.39   |   2.26   |   2.37   |   2.20   
Haste Rating |   1.91   |   1.97   |   1.79   |   1.72   
Armor Pen.   |   0.25   |   0.27   |   0.25   |   0.24   
Meta Gem     |  70.09   |  88.71   |  64.50   |  63.52
Can you explain why the hit rating has a different value for each build? Or agility?

Actually, that is poorly phrased...I know why the values are different, but I would like to know why the values are what they are.
#1483SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Vulajin
Originally Posted by Emerald View Post
Can you explain why the hit rating has a different value for each build? Or agility?

Actually, that is poorly phrased...I know why the values are different, but I would like to know why the values are what they are.
Same section...

On stat weight scaling: each stat's EP value will tend to scale with your gear, talents, and raid buffs. Sinister Calling will increase the EP value of agility by about 15%, while Blessing of Kings will increase the EP values of agility and strength by 10%. Deadliness will increase the DPS contribution of strength, agility, and attack power, which will have the effect of reducing the EP values of any other stats. On-hit procs such as Windfury, Mongoose, Combat Potency, and [Dragonspine Trophy] will all increase the values of hit and expertise ratings, while [Relentless Earthstorm Diamond] and Mace Specialization will both increase the value of crit rating. All of the EP weights given above are examples based on a theoretical raid composition and gear/talent setup; for the most exact valuation of stats, you should always consult a spreadsheet.
Some builds don't have Combat Potency, or Sword Specialization, and some builds receive a higher proportion of their damage contribution from special attacks, in which case hit rating loses some of its value.
#1484SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Carnificus
I was wondering if there was a version of the 'EP' charts for Mutilate-combat specs.
#1485SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Icos
Small question.


Which is better? Opening with Garrote on bleedable bosses, or just running in and opening immediately with your cycle?

I've yet to see an answer to this, been wondering for a while now.
#1486SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 pewsey
Originally Posted by Icos View Post
Small question.


Which is better? Opening with Garrote on bleedable bosses, or just running in and opening immediately with your cycle?

I've yet to see an answer to this, been wondering for a while now.
I've never modelled it - so YMMV - but here's my reasoning.

If the tank has enough initial threat - I'll run in and wail away with SS.
If I think aggro will be a bit sketch that a sinister strike crit, then sword spec proc crit might make the boss "angry" with me, then I'll use stealth and garotte them.

In nearly all circumstances - running in and hitting the boss will provide much more DPS than using Garotte.

So - better is a bit subjective - but for me better is "not dead".
#1487SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Cyn
Originally Posted by Icos View Post
Small question.


Which is better? Opening with Garrote on bleedable bosses, or just running in and opening immediately with your cycle?

I've yet to see an answer to this, been wondering for a while now.
Garrote and Sinister strike are going to be fairly close in Damage per Energy, but how many white hits do you miss while you stealth in? Sinister strike + 2 white hits is going to put you ahead over a garrote
#1488SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Feist-Mok
I stealth in and garrotte as a way to force myself to stay out until the tank has threat.

If the extra 1-3000 damage is going to really make a difference to you at the end though, running in and mashing sinister strike will give more damage, as the posters above have noted.
#1489SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3daverk50
Just as an aside some bosses are pickpocketable so opening from stealth may get you some minor goodies and cash. I've actually gotten a couple of green gems. No big, but still fun.

I also use it as a way to let the tank get threat. I've been known to be a little over eager at times.
#1490SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3xyresic
Professions

Is there an 'optimal' set of professions a rogue should take? I've been reading around and I haven't found any real information regarding what's considered the best professions for personal/raid dps. As for myself, I'm my guilds token TSH rogue, and I currently have Enchanting and Herbalism. Enchanting for the ring enchants and Herbalism for cash. I'm seriously thinking of dropping Herbalism since daily quests net so much cash I don't really need a gathering profession unless I'm using what I gather as mats for a crafting profession. I know most just choose a crafting profession for gear they want (Leatherworking, Blacksmithing for the maces, etc), but it seems like a sink to me because in most if not all cases, crafted items are replaceable with drops or other gear sources. Am I wrong in this?

I've considered Jewelcrafting for the BoP gems, and I'm willing to eat that cost for dps (I did it for enchanting). There's also a passive benefit by taking Jewelcrafting and Enchanting, as you can DIY your own gear instead of paying mats for it. Would Leatherworking for drums be better? The spreadsheets tell me I can gain like ~2+ dps per gem, and ~10+ with Drums of Battle, but am I missing something? Should I wait for Inscription?

Seems like a note on optimal professions would be a handy thing to put on the first page.

Thanks again for all the great info in this thread.
#1491SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Hanos
Originally Posted by xyresic View Post
Is there an 'optimal' set of professions a rogue should take? I've been reading around and I haven't found any real information regarding what's considered the best professions for personal/raid dps. As for myself, I'm my guilds token TSH rogue, and I currently have Enchanting and Herbalism. Enchanting for the ring enchants and Herbalism for cash. I'm seriously thinking of dropping Herbalism since daily quests net so much cash I don't really need a gathering profession unless I'm using what I gather as mats for a crafting profession. I know most just choose a crafting profession for gear they want (Leatherworking, Blacksmithing for the maces, etc), but it seems like a sink to me because in most if not all cases, crafted items are replaceable with drops or other gear sources. Am I wrong in this?

I've considered Jewelcrafting for the BoP gems, and I'm willing to eat that cost for dps (I did it for enchanting). There's also a passive benefit by taking Jewelcrafting and Enchanting, as you can DIY your own gear instead of paying mats for it. Would Leatherworking for drums be better? The spreadsheets tell me I can gain like ~2+ dps per gem, and ~10+ with Drums of Battle, but am I missing something? Should I wait for Inscription?

Seems like a note on optimal professions would be a handy thing to put on the first page.

Thanks again for all the great info in this thread.
It really depends on your level of progression. Leatherworking is going to be ideal for most rogues due to Drums, and the benefits your entire group gets from them. You can also get some nice pieces of gear like the Boots from SSC/TK, Shoulders from BT/Hyjal, that are very nice until you can get better, however Edgewalkers are better, and the shoulders off High Warlord are close and T6 is better. Armory isn't working so I am going by Wowjutsu, which says end of SSC/TK, but not in T6 yet. In T7 it looks like LW and JC'ing will be the best with a Best in Slot LW'ing Chest, and a Best in Slot JC'ing Neck, until then, LW'ing and whatever else will be pretty close.
#1492SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Latito
Enchanting is also decent due to the ring enchants. +8 stats isn't game-breaking.. but worth noting.
#1493SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Bluefish
With the introduction of [Pattern: Carapace of Sun and Shadow] I would suggest Leatherworking, with the caveat that unless you're terribly unlucky on drops and flat out of badges, you'll likely never craft any BoP armor before that. With my gear, the Carapace is 26 AP over [Bladed Chaos Tunic] (the next-best-in-slot) and [Drums of Battle] weigh in at a strong 14 DPS plus group benefit.

With Nether Vortex being BoE and purchasable with Badges in 2.4, [Dragonstrike] would be within your grasp if you took up BS instead. However, indications are that Season 4 will be coming in the "relatively near" (several months) future, making S2 weapons available for honor and S3 for arena points with no rating requirement. LW would probably be the better long-term choice.
#1494SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Vulajin
Originally Posted by Carnificus View Post
I was wondering if there was a version of the 'EP' charts for Mutilate-combat specs.
Sorry, but as the EP weights are based upon the theoretical DPS provided by each stat as calculated by our spreadsheet models of each spec, and considering that the best known Mutilate DPS model is not considered to be anywhere near as strong as those for other specs (read as: Seal Fate sucks and spreadsheet-makers hate it), I can't provide accurate EP values for a Mutilate build.

I would venture that Mutilate builds would experience increased benefits from agility and crit relative to combat builds, slightly reduced benefit from hit and haste, and similar benefit from expertise. I couldn't guess whether armor penetration would be more or less valuable.
#1495SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Vulajin
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
But really, this just reiterates how important it is to use a spreadsheet if you want accurate information.
I wholeheartedly agree with you, but you and I both know that there will be a lot of people reading this thread who aren't likely to ever use the spreadsheet.

I think the best way to approach the EP weights is probably to balance an "ideal" raid setup with a "realistic" raid setup. By this I mean that a typical raid is most likely not going to provide the rogue with an enhancement shaman, a BM hunter with a wolf, a DPS warrior, and a feral druid all in the same group. However, enhance+warrior+feral+rogue+rogue is a realistic setup that a typical raid guild would want to shoot for anyway. Full armor debuffs are ideal (FF+Sunder+CoR) and are reasonable to use on pretty much any boss (doing Archimonde attempts with CoR taught me that). I think that two paladins is probably the best assumption to make as well. Basically I assume anything that's reasonable to expect in a raid guild, without assuming any of the "fancy" stuff that can be done to increase DPS (Expose Weakness and Blood Frenzy, drums, haste pots). So the list comes out like this:

Leader of the Pack
Mark of the Wild (5/5 Improved)
Faerie Fire
Mangle
Hunter's Mark (5/5 Improved)
Blessing of Might (0/5 Improved)
Power Word: Fortitude (2/2 Improved)
Bloodlust (x1)
Strength of Earth Totem (2/2 Improved)
Windfury Totem (2/2 Improved)
Unleashed Rage
Curse of Recklessness
Sunder Armor
Battle Shout (5/5 Improved, no [Solarian's Sapphire])
Flak of Relentless Assault
Spicy Hot Talbuk

I'll redo the EP tables in the near future using this spread of buffs.
#1496SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Rerox
Still wondering on the expertise topic...

WoWWiki still (or again) reports:
A Boss-mobs parry is increased by 0.04 for every point of weapon skill it has over your level based defense, and its dodge is increased by 0.04 for every point of level based defense it has over your level based defense. At level 70 you have 350 level based defense. At level 73 a Boss-mob has 365 level based Defense and Weapon Skill, giving it 0.04*15 additional parry and dodge %. Meaning it gains 0.6% to Dodge and Parry. Ontop of it's base 5% parry, this gives a total of 5.6%. To negate 5.6% dodge and parry 23 points of expertise (or 89.7 points of expertise rating) are needed.
So it seems there are two completely different numbers people work with.
This will cause severe problems when theorycrafting or working on spreadsheets, so we need to prove one or the other number.
#1497SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Biarch
if u have a choice between Grace of air and Windfury what would be best for dps?

i know that WF is surperior to Instant poison but i wonder if the agi lose is out weighed by the gain of WF
#1498SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Vulajin
Originally Posted by Biarch View Post
if u have a choice between Grace of air and Windfury what would be best for dps?

i know that WF is surperior to Instant poison but i wonder if the agi lose is out weighed by the gain of WF
On poisons and Windfury: for PvE, always choose DP on the offhand. If you are in a group with a shaman and you're combat, you'll get more DPS from Windfury as opposed to Grace of Air + IP. However, the difference is not as dramatic as it is for, say, a DPS warrior. If your group contains a DPS warrior, Windfury Totem will usually be dropped. Otherwise, if less than half the group is rogues, Grace of Air Totem will probably be dropped and you should use IP on the MH. Always check with your shaman if you're unsure what will be dropped. For Mutilate, Grace of Air Totem might be preferable, but Windfury Totem is still quite powerful. Note that dual DP is a waste for all builds except Mutilate, and only if you use Envenom. For all builds, [Adamantite Sharpening Stone] are inferior unless the target is immune to poisons.
Relevant part bolded. I know it's a long post, but you'd think people who had questions would be particularly careful to double-check the sections dealing with their issue before posting.
#1499SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3hannigaholic
I must say I was shocked that Instant Poison and GoA was actually better for a rogue than Windfury Totem. It's right, of course; it just came as a big surprise for some reason.
#1500SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3patcherke
I have some questions about the cycles used for finishers :

1. why doing a 4s5r cycle if you have no T4 set bonus? to get 5 points for the rupture, you need 20s to build them up. To cover these 20 seconds, a 3 point SnD is enough if you have put talents in it (which is the case with the combat builds)

A 3 point slice and dice lasts for 18 * 1.3 = 23,4s

Even a 2 point slice and dice will be good imo (lasts for 19.5 s, which leave you with 0.5 s of not having SnD, but I think this will be covered by the fact that you have more finishers in the end)


2. on the 1s5r cycle : a 1s finisher lasts for 18.6s when you got the T4 bonus. This means that you got 1.4 s of not having SnD. Does this mean that an extra point in SnD does not make up for the loss in rupture finishers??
#1501SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
 Vulajin
Originally Posted by hannigaholic View Post
I must say I was shocked that Instant Poison and GoA was actually better for a rogue than Windfury Totem. It's right, of course; it just came as a big surprise for some reason.
What on earth are you talking about?

Originally Posted by Patcherke
1. why doing a 4s5r cycle if you have no T4 set bonus? to get 5 points for the rupture, you need 20s to build them up. To cover these 20 seconds, a 3 point SnD is enough if you have put talents in it (which is the case with the combat builds)

A 3 point slice and dice lasts for 18 * 1.3 = 23,4s

Even a 2 point slice and dice will be good imo (lasts for 19.5 s, which leave you with 0.5 s of not having SnD, but I think this will be covered by the fact that you have more finishers in the end)

2. on the 1s5r cycle : a 1s finisher lasts for 18.6s when you got the T4 bonus. This means that you got 1.4 s of not having SnD. Does this mean that an extra point in SnD does not make up for the loss in rupture finishers??
You are forgetting that after the Rupture, you have to again build up points to use your next Slice and Dice. Letting Slice and Dice drop would be violating one of the 7 commandments of rogue DPS. If you don't have T4 2pc, 2s/5r will allow Slice to fall off before you can refresh it. 3s/5r is doable and is used by quite a large number of rogues, but 4s/5r is more reliable if you are worried about Slice falling off in the absence of procs.

You are also forgetting that Combat Potency procs shorten the amount of time needed to generate the CP for your next finisher. On average, 1s/5r is the best usable cycle with T4 2pc, and 3s/5r or 4s/5r are best without it (until late T6, at which point you may choose to use 5s/5r).

Last edited by Vulajin : 02/19/08 at 8:01 AM.
#1502SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3hannigaholic
Originally Posted by Vulajin View Post
What on earth are you talking about?
Quite obviously I was talking about being surprised that GoA + IP was better than just using WF totem for rogue dps. What part of that was unclear?
#1503SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Hanos
Originally Posted by hannigaholic View Post
I must say I was shocked that Instant Poison and GoA was actually better for a rogue than Windfury Totem. It's right, of course; it just came as a big surprise for some reason.
What? No, it isn't. It might be close, but it isn't better for a combat rogue in any know situation or combination of gear. Please do spread misinformation like this.

Originally Posted by patcherke View Post
I have some questions about the cycles used for finishers :

1. why doing a 4s5r cycle if you have no T4 set bonus? to get 5 points for the rupture, you need 20s to build them up. To cover these 20 seconds, a 3 point SnD is enough if you have put talents in it (which is the case with the combat builds)

A 3 point slice and dice lasts for 18 * 1.3 = 23,4s

Even a 2 point slice and dice will be good imo (lasts for 19.5 s, which leave you with 0.5 s of not having SnD, but I think this will be covered by the fact that you have more finishers in the end)
I am sure someone else will address this as well, but it comes down to the value of finishers, Ruthlessness and Relentless Strikes. Doing a 5 point finisher means your finisher is free because you will always get 25 energy, and you have a 60% chance to get a combo point, this means you get in more Sinister Strikes, which is generally going to be more DPS. Also in your example what you have to factor in is what happens if one of your SS's is dodged, then you lose S&D uptime. A 4 point finisher still gives you an 80% chance to get 25 energy, so an average of 20 energy (15 for 3, 10 for 2, 5 for 1).

Letting S&D drop isn't a good option, and having planned downtime is even worse. You have to remember that Rupture is only a small % of your DPS, and the spreadsheets are designed to model the relative value of increased Rupture uptime versus additional Sinister Strikes etc.

2. on the 1s5r cycle : a 1s finisher lasts for 18.6s when you got the T4 bonus. This means that you got 1.4 s of not having SnD. Does this mean that an extra point in SnD does not make up for the loss in rupture finishers??
Not really, because you forget to factor it 25 energy from Relentless Strikes, an 80% chance you will get atleast 1 additional Combo Point from Ruthlessness, and the fact that you will hit approximately 1 time per second with your off hand, so in 18 seconds you will regen 45-60 energy (on average) from Combat Potency. 1s/5r is only viable with Combat Specs for this reason.
#1504SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Hanos
Originally Posted by hannigaholic View Post
Quite obviously I was talking about being surprised that GoA + IP was better than just using WF totem for rogue dps. What part of that was unclear?
The part about that statement being completely and utterly wrong. No spreadsheet or current modeling supports that, so I think we are at a bit of a loss regarding where you are coming from.
#1505SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
hannigaholic
According to the DPS Spreadsheet it is in fact better using my gear and a Combat Swords build

--edit--

In fact I've just downloaded the version using the full T6 gear and GoA/IP comes out on top for that also, so I'd appreciate it if you don't assume that I'm basing this on nothing, thank you very much.

That said, the Gear Spreadsheet puts WF totem at around 35dps* higher than the GoA/IP combo so it could just be a glitch in the DPS sheet.


*It's over 100dps higher if you leave both WF/Improved WF turned on, as it was when I downloaded the sheet, and change to Goa/Improved GoA

Last edited by hannigaholic : 02/19/08 at 11:53 AM.
#1506SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Latito
You are looking at Unbuffed DPS. Unbuffed doesn't include WF (or GoA) into the calculations, considering you are not a Shaman. It does however include IP, since you give that to yourself.

This problem occurs at least once every couple pages.. someone thinks they made some grand discovery that somehow WF is inferior.. when really they just don't know how to read.

WF > GoA + IP.
#1507SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3hannigaholic
Frankly I don't appreciate being told I'm an idiot by people who are too lazy to go and look for themselves. The DPS sheet may well be wrong but buffed dps (unless 1700+dps is suddenly possible unbuffed and has jumped into the buffed dps box) is increased by dropping WF totem.

Go check for yourselves.
#1508SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Ashran
Originally Posted by hannigaholic View Post
Quite obviously I was talking about being surprised that GoA + IP was better than just using WF totem for rogue dps. What part of that was unclear?
A combat sword build (20/41) with 4 points spent in improved and / or vile poisons + considering improved grace air totem leads to this situation in the RogueDPS_2_4_0_3 spreadsheet. There are too many parameters (gear, buff, boss armor...) to give a number, but the increase for my personnal case is about 0.6% buffed.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

- link to Armory: The World of Warcraft Armory
#1509SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Left
Originally Posted by hannigaholic View Post
According to the DPS Spreadsheet it is in fact better using my gear and a Combat Swords build

--edit--

In fact I've just downloaded the version using the full T6 gear and GoA/IP comes out on top for that also, so I'd appreciate it if you don't assume that I'm basing this on nothing, thank you very much.

That said, the Gear Spreadsheet puts WF totem at around 35dps* higher than the GoA/IP combo so it could just be a glitch in the DPS sheet.


*It's over 100dps higher if you leave both WF/Improved WF turned on, as it was when I downloaded the sheet, and change to Goa/Improved GoA
Turn on one or the other, not both. (IE, use WF or Improved WF, but not both.) The sheet models them as two separate effects, so you are in effect double-dipping those abilities if you have them both turned on. This may help explain your oddball results...
#1510SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Trazhenko
The DPS sheet does indeed say what he says it does, and as he mentioned later, the gear sheet disagrees.

For my gear/spec/typical buffs, changing WF to IP7 and turning on GoA(improved) nets me a whopping 0.29 DPS increase in the buffed DPS column (and +14.45 DPS if I change it to Flametongue, YAY).

However, using the same gear/buffs and making the same change of Wf(improved) -> IP7 and adding imp. GoA nets me a 47 DPS loss on the gear sheet.

I can't say who is wrong, but after raiding on a rogue for almost 3 years, I'm tempted to side with my experience, which says that WF is noticeably better than GoA + IP.

One thing I did notice, is that toggling WF on and off in the DPS sheet only changed the field "other DPS". I'd think that both "melee DPS" and "finisher DPS (i.e. SnD)" would go up when you add WF. Actually, if WF on the DPS sheet was increased by 35% (2pc T6 SnD), it would almost match the gear sheet. I wonder if that's the problem.
#1511SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Left
Although, he's right... oddly enough, IP + GoA comes out as 0.19% ahead of WF in the current version of the DPS spreadsheet using default gear and buffs. Should be even higher for a Mutilate spec. Strange...

EDIT: I'm even showing this for my early T5 gear using the current version of the DPS sheet. Gear sheet has it sitting at ~30 DPS back. Something is funky with the DPS sheet here... either that or we need to re-evaluate all our assumptions.
#1512SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Aldriana
I spent a few minutes looking at this discrepancy, and there are two fundamental modeling differences between the two sheets. I believe the Gear sheet has the correct behavior (obviously), but perhaps it's worth doing some external testing to verify.

1) The Gear sheet assumes that WF attacks can proc stuff - Mongoose/Executioner, Dragonspine Trophy, and the like. Since you are now getting 20% more MH attacks, the proc rate on these goes up and increases your damage slightly.

And, the larger effect:

2) The Gear sheet treats WF as a buff with a duration, and thus increases the AP of a suitable proportion of your other attacks to encompass this fact.

Now, I haven't actually tested either of these lately, so that might be worth doing; but my impression is that this is how it works. Regardless: between these the value of WF is increased by about 30 DPS in the Gear sheet relative to the DPS sheet, which is why one shows IP/GoA as comparable and one does not.
#1513SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Fingerlickin
Rogue max damage addon

I am fairly new to playing a Rogue but I have a Druid and a Priest that I've had for years and I read these forums quite often. I'm working on an addon for my rogue to make life easier and I have a few questions for you guys. The addon is using the mob's estimated armor from the TargetArmor addon, the mob's debuffs from blizz's api, and the mob's health from the MobHealth addon to calculate Eviserate vs. Envenom damage and display which ability to use. I'm also trying to figure out how to get info from EnhTooltip to override that decision with Rupture if the mob is not immune.

My question is how much armor does a mob need to have to make Envenom more effective than Eviserate? Also, does Envenom gain the full benifet of misery and storm strike?
#1514SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3saedo
Originally Posted by Fingerlickin View Post
My question is how much armor does a mob need to have to make Envenom more effective than Eviserate? Also, does Envenom gain the full benifet of misery and storm strike?
In general, envenom is not used at all. Deadly Poison ticks will give more dps. Envenom is only really used as the last 1% move when deadly poison won't tick through. And on that matter, Evis is also generally not used. If the mob is bleedable, Rupture is used.
#1515SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Vulajin
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
1) The Gear sheet assumes that WF attacks can proc stuff - Mongoose/Executioner, Dragonspine Trophy, and the like. Since you are now getting 20% more MH attacks, the proc rate on these goes up and increases your damage slightly.

And, the larger effect:

2) The Gear sheet treats WF as a buff with a duration, and thus increases the AP of a suitable proportion of your other attacks to encompass this fact.

Now, I haven't actually tested either of these lately, so that might be worth doing; but my impression is that this is how it works. Regardless: between these the value of WF is increased by about 30 DPS in the Gear sheet relative to the DPS sheet, which is why one shows IP/GoA as comparable and one does not.
My personal spreadsheet does account for 1), but does not account for 2), and still puts Windfury 33 DPS ahead of GoA+IP for my gear/buff setup (early T6+full raid buffs).

I like the DPS spreadsheet, but the idea of it suggesting that GoA is superior in any fashion to Windfury leaves me really scratching my head.
#1516SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
robfang
In 2_4_0_3 version of the dps spreadsheet (as well as in the older versions) GoA+Deadly Main hand+Instant Offhand is better than WF+Deadly Offhand for all gear levels if 3 or more points spent on either poison talents.

In T4-T5 gear, the discrepancy is around 1% of your total damage while in T6 gear, the discrepancy is negligible.

Edit: The above values are for Combat Swords build. You can expect any dagger build or shadowstep build (due to sinister calling) favor GoA more over WF.

Edit2: According to my calculations, with 2.6 speed MH, 1,5 speed offhand and with slice and dice up;

Untalented,
Main Hand deadly poison provides 59,6 dps
Offhand instant poison provides 22,6 dps

The values match quite well with the poison dps values of the spreadsheet.

I don't think there is anything wrong with the poison dps calculations of the last version of the spreadsheet. If we disregard the slight possibility of miscalculation of dps provided by WF or GoA, we can assume that GoA+Poison on both hands is better than WF+Deadly poison offhand. At least until you get a Warglaive in each hand.

Last edited by robfang : 02/19/08 at 10:49 PM.
#1517SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Dontmindme
I took a quick look at the Windfury DPS sheet modeling...it's not so bad, but there are deficiencies.

1) It's modeled under the old assumption that no extra attacks will proc other extra attacks which has been proven false. So it's missing synergy with Sword Spec especially.

2) It uses 2 as a crit factor instead of the true buffed crit multiplier.

3) It fails to add other overall damage multipliers to the Windfury damage (like Murder).

4) It doesn't feed back into the proc mechanics (but then again, proc mechanics are just beginning to get converted from estimates, so not much of an issue yet).

Since each of these are underestimating the result, it's probably safe to assume for now that Windfury still edges out IP/GoA. We'll see by how much when it gets fixed and the rest of the accurate proc mechanics go into place.
#1518SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Ylliak
Our typical melee group looks like this:

Rogue
Rogue
Rogue
Warrior
Enhancement Shaman

In most situations there is aboslutely no point to discuss wheter WF is superior/inferior to IP+GoA, because if your Shaman is skilled he will rotate totems and provide both buffs.

And then - without question - WF is superior.
#1519SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Ashere
Originally Posted by patcherke View Post
1. why doing a 4s5r cycle if you have no T4 set bonus? to get 5 points for the rupture, you need 20s to build them up. To cover these 20 seconds, a 3 point SnD is enough if you have put talents in it (which is the case with the combat builds)
Late reply, I know, but:
Even with a hemo build, it takes 17.5 seconds to build up 5 combopoints for a finisher. With a Ruthlessness Proc, this is only 14 seconds.
On avarage, a Combat build with Combat Potency will be slightly ahead of the hemo build at this. Especially at higher level hasted gear (proc per strike for the win there). So 20 seconds is really a worst worst case scenario. On avarage, a Combat build will be closer to requiring only about 16 seconds to build 5 combopoints, about 10 with a Ruthlessness proc and very good Combat Potency proccing. These are rough numbers, but you get the idea.
So yes, some people will gamble on getting their procs right. If they do get their procs, it's rewarding, if they don't the effect is marginal.
#1520SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Discombobulator
Originally Posted by saedo View Post
In general, envenom is not used at all. Deadly Poison ticks will give more dps. Envenom is only really used as the last 1% move when deadly poison won't tick through. And on that matter, Evis is also generally not used. If the mob is bleedable, Rupture is used.
Oh high HP trash with 5% or less HP Envenom is better than Evi but that about all the raid utility it has atm.
#1521SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Shaker
I guess nobody else has mentioned it, though it might be in the mut thread, but +15% chance to crit with mut, and elementals won't be defaulted immune to poisons (though ones immune to nature damage will be). Looks like they're trying to bring Mut back in line.
#1522SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Aldriana
It helps, certainly, but I think Mutilate is still a bit behind even with the change. Bumping Mutilate from (say) 30% crit to 45% crit will up it's expected damage by about 10%; assuming Mutilate was, say, 40% of your damage before, this is then a 10% increase to 40% of your damage, or about a 4% increase to Mutilate DPS (plus whatever you get from the extra combo points, an effect I expect to be fairly small). Thus, for a 1500 DPS rogue, this change would add about 60 DPS to Mutilate, which is larger than the estimated gap between Combat Swords and Mutilate. Additionally, Mutilate still has heavier positional dependency which will limit it's DPS in some circumstances.

So, fundamentally speaking: it helps, to be sure. And it might even be close enough that we now need to devote some attention to modeling it. But I suspect on the whole it still runs behind Combat swords at equal itemization.

That said, itemization needn't be equal; for instance, if you lack Warglaives but can get a Crux of the Apocalypse and a Shiv of Exsanguination (or some such) one might fight that the damage rivals any combat swords setup you can get without Warglaives.
#1523SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Shaker
Yeah, I agree that it isn't quite up to Combat Swords, but I think at this point it's not nonsense for one of your rogues to talk about doing a dagger spec, if only to soak up the plentiful number of high end daggers. I mean, sure, Warglaives are better, but unless your guild is really lucky, you're going to be looking at what, 2 sets max?

We're a bit more casual, but for me, given that it distributes weapons a little more cleanly, and that one of my raiders just honestly likes the playstyle better, this last change was enough for me to green light him into giving it a try.
#1524SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Bendelat
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
It helps, certainly, but I think Mutilate is still a bit behind even with the change. Bumping Mutilate from (say) 30% crit to 45% crit will up it's expected damage by about 10%; assuming Mutilate was, say, 40% of your damage before, this is then a 10% increase to 40% of your damage, or about a 4% increase to Mutilate DPS (plus whatever you get from the extra combo points, an effect I expect to be fairly small).
Wouldn't the combo points be a bit more than fairly small? In the mutilate thread there are comments saying that stacking agility and crit over hit once geared provides for much larger dps gains than expected by gut. Mutilate already has massive combo point generation. If relentless procs and a high crit rate you can end up doing mutilate, 4pt finisher, mutilate, 4pt finisher, repeat, for as long as you keep critting.

That keeps up Find Weakness's buff, and provides significant energy generation. That seems to be fairly large and it should scale. Am I missing something?
#1525SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Dorvan
Originally Posted by Bendelat View Post
Wouldn't the combo points be a bit more than fairly small? In the mutilate thread there are comments saying that stacking agility and crit over hit once geared provides for much larger dps gains than expected by gut. Mutilate already has massive combo point generation. If relentless procs and a high crit rate you can end up doing mutilate, 4pt finisher, mutilate, 4pt finisher, repeat, for as long as you keep critting.

That keeps up Find Weakness's buff, and provides significant energy generation. That seems to be fairly large and it should scale. Am I missing something?
Well, you're not going to be able to maintain a pure 1 Mut/1 finisher rotation (assuming a 4+ CP finisher rotation, I suppose going pure 1 Mut/1 finish regardless of CPs might be worth looking at come to think of it)...with 30% crit pre-Mut talent you'll have about a 70% chance to generate 3 CPs with each mutilate. Combined with a 60% proc chance on Ruthlessness and you're looking at being able to do 1 Mut/1 finisher about 40% of the time (perhaps as high as 50% with 4-piece T4). Still, that's a a nice bump over the 30% chance you've got without the talent.

Last edited by Dorvan : 02/20/08 at 4:20 PM.
#1526SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Aldriana
So, two things:

1) I admit I am conjecturing a bit here, but it is my impression that most people overestimate the benefit gained via extra combo points due to higher crit rate. It helps, to be sure, but I'm reasonably sure that the majority of the damage gained via a crit is from the damage itself and not from the combo point.

2) Increasing crit rate by 15% doesn't give 15% more crits; in reality, the number is more like 10% assuming a typical crit rate (with a 30% crit rate, expected combo points per Mutilate is 2.51; with a 45% crit rate it's 2.7, which is less than 10%). Regardless: you gain an extra .2 combo points per Mutilate. That's 1 combo point every 5 finishers, and thus ~20 Mutilates to get enough combo points for an extra finisher - assuming you don't waste any of those procs, which you likely do (unless you're doing 3+ cycles, anyway). So best case scenario, you get an extra Eviscerate every 2 minutes or so. An Eviscerate does, what, 2400 average damage at the absolute maximum? If so, we're gaining 2400/120 = 20 DPS from the combo points, and in reality I'd be willing to bet that that estimate is generous. So is it negligible? No. It does have an effect. But it's maybe a quarter the benefit of the raw crit damage and thus doesn't really change the underlying point.
#1527SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Dorvan
Thinking about it more and doing a little back of the envelope math it looks like you're definitely going to end up wasting more CPs with the new talent, at least with a 4+ cycle. Basically, there are 2 sequences that can cause a wasted combo point:

no ruthlessness proc -> mut crit -> mut crit

and

ruthlessness proc -> mut non-crit -> mut crit

Assuming 30% base crit, the chance of wasting a combo point on any giving cycle is:

without Puncturing Wounds
.4*.51*.51+.6*.49*.51 = 25.4%

with Puncturing Wounds
.4*.6975*.6975+.6*.3025*.6975 = 32.1%

I wonder if the change is enough to justify switching to a 3+ cycle (ensuring 0 wasted CPs)?

edit -- hm, I didn't take into account that you generate 0 CPs if neither Mut swing hits....that'll actually increase the the proportion of hits that generate 3 CPs, and thus means even more wasted CPs.

edit 2 -- if this change goes through, perhaps Mut is competitive enough that modeling it correctly should become a higher priority? *wink*

Last edited by Dorvan : 02/20/08 at 4:57 PM.
#1528SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3impossible!
Originally Posted by Dorvan View Post
edit 2 -- if this change goes through, perhaps Mut is competitive enough that modeling it correctly should become a higher priority? *wink*
Maybe I'm behind the times -- I haven't been able to keep up for a bit now -- but isn't the inability to adequately model Seal Fate a big part in modeling Mutilate?
#1529SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Aldriana
Well, none of the existing spreadsheets do a 100% accurate job of it, but that's not so much because you fundamentally can't as the fact that it's a pain so no one has done it yet. I have no particular doubt in my mind that if I had a week or two and nothing better to do I could get a good Mutilate/SF model built. It's just that I don't have that sort of free time, and I have lots of better things to be doing.

Now, if people are seriously interested, I might be able to throw together some rough (very rough) approximation of what's going on for those of you who might be interested in some ballpark figures. The level of accuracy would definitely be below what's possible for Combat Swords right now, but it might give a rough idea of stat priority and scaling. I haven't done so already mostly because I'd rather see it done right at some point.
#1530SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Dontmindme
It's actually not that hard to model. The hardest part of a perfectly accurate modeling is the disruption to one's cycle based on so many possible outcomes and cycle lengths. Much of that can be mitigated by intelligent adaptation of one's cycles on the fly.

Much of the myth of Seal Fate being difficult to model arose from an earlier spreadsheet error in the DPS spreadsheet. Many people called it difficult to model because the DPS spreadsheet was showing unachievable DPS amounts. What really happened was the the spreadsheet was adding instant attack damage to every Seal Fate procced combo point. When this bug was fixed, the displayed DPS values look to much more closely match reality.

In fact, the current Seal Fate modeling (even for non-Mutilate builds) is looking pretty good now that the bug was repaired.
#1531SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Shaker
Realistically, it might also be best to just go the simulator route with this - it'd be a lot easier to do comparisons between cycle strategies with a simulator.
#1532SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Aldriana
I agree that the SF model in the DPS sheet is pretty reasonable these days - at least in comparison to the rest of the DPS sheet. However, I might note that the DPS sheet doesn't even really factor in all the subtleties of combat cycles (such as the fact that proc uptimes should be dynamically determined based on hit chance and weapon speed), such that while it's certainly a reasonable approximation it's not really as accurate as it could be. Since Seal Fate has proportionally more subtle complexities in it, I think it's fair to say that there is certainly significant room for improvement around the modeling of Seal Fate.

I actually started working on a more fully detailed SF model a few months back, and gave up on it within a matter of weeks because there are just so many picky little edge cases to handle. Most of them are going to have a minimal impact on DPS... but if you really want to do the job right, they need to be handled, and chasing down every possible interaction turns out to be just a lot of work. I'm not saying it can't be done; I'm just saying I have neither the time nor the inclination to do it. The fundamental problem is that a model that just looks at average behavior doesn't do the job, and even looking at variance omits stuff. What you really need to do to get totally accurate examples is work out all the cases and do the average at the end - and there are dozens upon dozens of cases.
#1533SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3monkorn
Sorry to sway from the current mutilate discussion, but imo it's time for another look at the rogue tank theorycraft.

Goal: To hit 103+% avoidance, and thus be immune to melee while still providing great anti spell in CloS, enveloping shadows, and cheat death. We already know how this works and there isn't a cap(like the 99% spell hit)due to the lv10 dodge rating sploitz - YouTube - Level ten twink SOLOS VanCleef and thus now all we need to know is it possible to get to that gear level.

We can technically be under that, and allow for mongoose procs, ghostly strike, cheat death, evasion and various other active models, the more under we get the more odds that in a 10 minute fight we'll eventually go down due to bad luck. So I went on to warcrafter and put up a demo char, with the max possible gear. It was shockingly close to the goal, once you add in motw/grace/kings/agi elixir/agi food. Here it is~

70 Troll Rogue

Better yet, so far the 2.4 gear is only going to make it better. ~+45 extra agility(mostly due to t2 eng and leggings of immortal beast) is easily putting it into imba range.

Secondary issue being threat. The biggest advantage a rogue tank brings to a raid is that "healers" now all of a sudden actually DPS. So while a few classes might have to slow down some, even more are actually DPSing, or if there is lead up time(like on a high king maulgar based encounter) it doesn't hurt whatsoever. Better yet, on a fight like VR you would simply dodge all the knockbacks and not be harmed whatsoever ^_^.

Thoughts? Anyone willing to transfer some spinels to the PTR to try it out? Will this be nerfed 5 seconds after it is perfected?
#1534SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Dontmindme
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
I agree that the SF model in the DPS sheet is pretty reasonable these days - at least in comparison to the rest of the DPS sheet. However, I might note that the DPS sheet doesn't even really factor in all the subtleties of combat cycles (such as the fact that proc uptimes should be dynamically determined based on hit chance and weapon speed), such that while it's certainly a reasonable approximation it's not really as accurate as it could be. Since Seal Fate has proportionally more subtle complexities in it, I think it's fair to say that there is certainly significant room for improvement around the modeling of Seal Fate.

I actually started working on a more fully detailed SF model a few months back, and gave up on it within a matter of weeks because there are just so many picky little edge cases to handle. Most of them are going to have a minimal impact on DPS... but if you really want to do the job right, they need to be handled, and chasing down every possible interaction turns out to be just a lot of work. I'm not saying it can't be done; I'm just saying I have neither the time nor the inclination to do it. The fundamental problem is that a model that just looks at average behavior doesn't do the job, and even looking at variance omits stuff. What you really need to do to get totally accurate examples is work out all the cases and do the average at the end - and there are dozens upon dozens of cases.
That stage is almost ready to be rolled out actually. Ashtongue is currently modeled in the new format and is currently adjusted post-estimate. The same is coming for all other proc models. The stage after that will have a Macro iteration where the estimated values will be determined by the results, iterated a few times (in fact one could pop the Macro again and be as scientifically accurate as one desires).

What I am saying is there is a pretty reasonable model currently available which does adjust well vs. stats. Many procs are still hit estimated, at least as they were modeled before, the rest are coming in the next update or two.
#1535SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
 Vulajin
(edit) Never mind, apparently insanity reins on these forums. Just keep it out of this thread, as this thread is about rogue DPS, not tanking.

Last edited by Vulajin : 02/20/08 at 6:38 PM.
#1536SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Latito
100% Avoidance - Rogue Tank

[Warrior] For fun - trying to reach 100% avoidence
#1537SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3monkorn
Thanks for the link, can't believe I missed it. And Vulajin, how rude. It's clear by the topic title that its overall stat-crunching, why else would it be here over the 5 other dps threads?
#1538SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Shaker
Given that he made the thread, I'd say he has a pretty decent insight as to what's offtopic and what's not.

Also, I agree with him. It's a cute discussion but merits a totally different thread so that people who aren't interested in it don't have to slog through all the lists of items and optimizations while trying to keep up with what's going on in this thread.
#1539SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Vulajin
Originally Posted by monkorn View Post
Thanks for the link, can't believe I missed it. And Vulajin, how rude. It's clear by the topic title that its overall stat-crunching, why else would it be here over the 5 other dps threads?
If you can explain to me the practical application of rogue tanking, I'm very interested to hear about it. Otherwise, you're wasting space in a raiding-oriented thread to discuss something that will most likely be used once in a gimmick 10-man run.
#1540SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3hordminion
Executioner enchant.

I realize this has probably already been asked an answered already, but im lazy. I just wanted to know about how much passive armor pen. does it take for executioner to be worth it? I am currently at the T6 level(well my guild is but im way under geared). Any sound advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

PS:First Post!
#1541SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Vulajin
Originally Posted by hordminion View Post
I realize this has probably already been asked an answered already, but im lazy. I just wanted to know about how much passive armor pen. does it take for executioner to be worth it? I am currently at the T6 level(well my guild is but im way under geared). Any sound advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks
The current section on Executioner is based on flawed evaluation of the enchants due to a bug in the Rogue Gear Spreadsheet. Executioner still surpasses Mongoose at a certain level of gear; however, because of the Warp-Spring Coil and extremely high amounts of passive armor penetration on Sunwell gear, having Executioner on top of those things would result in wasted armor penetration much of the time on low-armor bosses. (A fully debuffed raid boss with 6200 armor goes down to 2190.)

Considering that it'll be pretty difficult to avoid the armor penetration on Sunwell gear no matter what you do, it's probably the best bet simply to ignore Executioner and keep Mongoose, using Warp-Spring Coil until you have over 1190 passive armor penetration and then swapping it in on fights against high-armor bosses.
#1542SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3monkorn
Originally Posted by Vulajin View Post
If you can explain to me the practical application of rogue tanking, I'm very interested to hear about it. Otherwise, you're wasting space in a raiding-oriented thread to discuss something that will most likely be used once in a gimmick 10-man run.
Sure thing.

Assuming one can get to the unhitable status.. it trivializes the majority of the fights in the game. Not only does it improve DPS of the raid by swapping your prot spec warrior to a rogue, you also clearly don't need as many heals. Thus you can swap out healers for more DPS, which simplifies any 'we lose if he isn't dead by 6 minutes' encounters. Speaking of which, it also allows the raid to bring in extra healers in encounters where there is a great need for raid healing that also needs DPS to beat an enrage timer, as since you never get hit the enrage does nothing.
#1543SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Vulajin
Originally Posted by monkorn View Post
Sure thing.

Assuming one can get to the unhitable status.. it trivializes the majority of the fights in the game. Not only does it improve DPS of the raid by swapping your prot spec warrior to a rogue, you also clearly don't need as many heals. Thus you can swap out healers for more DPS, which simplifies any 'we lose if he isn't dead by 6 minutes' encounters. Speaking of which, it also allows the raid to bring in extra healers in encounters where there is a great need for raid healing that also needs DPS to beat an enrage timer, as since you never get hit the enrage does nothing.
You completely ignore the actual realities of encounters because you're so fixated on this idea that you can dodge every attack. This isn't Final Fantasy XI. What about threat? Your DPS will be terrible with this spec, and you already have a built-in 29% threat reduction that you can't negate. You have no high-threat attacks or abilities either. Your DPS will be so threat-capped that encounters will take longer regardless of how many healers you leave behind.

Let's look at some actual raid encounters.

High King Maulgar - Yes, this is trivialized.
Gruul - Your threat problems will make this fight take forever. By the time it ends, most likely Gruul's grown enough to one-shot your Hurtful tank. Or do you plan to tank the Hurtfuls too?
Magtheridon - This is trivialized as well.

Hydross the Unstable - Your threat problems will essentially make this impossible due to transitions.
The Lurker Below - Geyser is not your friend. Additionally, if you tank any of the adds, better not expose that rear arc of yours.
Leotheras the Blind - Since most of the damage is done during demon phase, the first 85% are doable. The last 15% will be hell due to your threat issues.
Fathom-Lord Karathress - Not sure which one you're fixing to tank here. Priest would be essentially impossible, so I'd have to imagine Karathress himself, but I'm pretty sure Tidal Surge suppresses avoidance, so you'd be killed during that. If not, then this is trivialized.
Morogrim Tidewalker - Your threat problems will make this take FOREVER. Your healers will run dry because you have forgotten that people other than the main tank sometimes take damage.
Lady Vashj - Completely impossible unless you can hit 100% miss+dodge, because parry won't save you on her ranged attacks. Also better hope your shaman never misses grounding a single Shock Burst.

Al'ar - No taunt, no Intercept, no Intervene, you're pretty much screwed after every Dive Bomb. On the bright side, though, you can tank even with Melt Armor.
Void Reaver - An already trivial fight is further trivialized, grats.
High Astromancer Solarian - Yeah, um.
Kael'thas - A single uninterrupted Fireball will kill you. To the best of my knowledge, his spells can't be cloaked, but I certainly may be mistaken.

Rage Winterchill - Again, an already trivial fight is further trivialized.
Anetheron - Same deal.
Kaz'rogal - Your threat problems will ruin any attempt. Also, I don't think his War Stomp can be dodged, it can only be resisted, so the first one that hits you will wipe the raid.
Azgalor - Might be trivialized, though the Rain of Fire will make things fun for you if it happens during his Howl.
Archimonde - Unless you have 3+ Fear Wards to be used exclusively on you throughout the fight without fail, this is completely impossible.

High Warlord Naj'entus - Might be trivialized.
Supremus - Your threat problems will force the raid to deal most of its damage during the Gaze phase, which greatly increases the threat of volcanoes.
Shade of Akama - Another trivial fight further trivialized.
Teron Gorefiend - Your threat problems will make this fight impossible.
Gurtogg Bloodboil - Can't speak to this fight, as I haven't done it.
Reliquary of Souls - Impossible due to lack of Spell Reflect.
Mother Shahraz - Can't speak to this fight, as I haven't done it.
Illidari Council - Can't speak to this fight, as I haven't done it.
Illidan Stormrage - Obviously impossible.

Considering that most of the fights you're "trivializing," you're also making take much longer due to your terrible threat, what do you really think is gained by going to the immense effort and expenditure to gear up a complete gimmick tank?

(edit) Oh, how could I forget, the wonders of Cheat Death mean that in several of the situations I identified, you would not immediately die, but rather survive by the skin of your teeth. Still not buying that as a justification.
#1544SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Grawknar
Originally Posted by monkorn View Post
...Not only does it improve DPS of the raid by swapping your prot spec warrior to a rogue,
Rogues replacing prot warriors? what?

This isn't simply about getting max avoidance. We use Warriors, Druids and Paladins for their AoE taunting/high-threat skills. But you knew this already, right?

Might be interesting to try out in 5mans, though.
#1545SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Shaker
And just to add, you're talking about this being possible now with the addition of Sunwell gear. If you're getting sunwell gear (and passing Brutallus), I don't think your raid group is concerned with a SINGLE enrage timer in the entire game. Same kinda goes for all the T6 gear that you've got listed - by the time you've collected the set of gear to be able to do this, it's not in any way useful.
#1546SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Aldriana
Okay, I think the truth of the matter with rogue tanking is somewhere in between the two perspectives put forward in the previous posts. Is it a broadly applicable topic of use to all rogues, and thus deserving of a place in the Roguecraft 101 thread? No. It is primarily a gimmick, and it's only going to be useful to a few people. But, on the other hand, as things currently stand, there are some fights that would be significantly eased through use of a 100% avoidance tank. The aggro issues are a concern... but they're not insolvable. Your DPS is probably 30% lower than a typical rogue's... but since you won't have salv (because you're tanking), you gain some aggro back. Doing 70% as much damage without salv means your aggro is exactly the same as it usually is, which, while less than that of a tank (obviously) is not ridiculously much lower.

In terms of which fights this is actually useful on - admittedly, it's not a lot of things. In BT alone I can definitely see it working on Teron and Naj'entus, and Gurtogg, Reliquary, Mother, and Illidan aren't totally out of the question. In Hyjal, Anetheron, Rage, and Azgalor are all possibilities.

So, again: yes, it's something of a gimmick. But it's a potentially useful gimmick (at least until someone actually does it, in which case a minimum avoidance chance will be rapidly hotfixed in), so it's a valid discussion topic. But as a gimmick topic, it doesn't belong in the general rogue thread.
#1547SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Grunge
Originally Posted by Dorvan View Post
Well, you're not going to be able to maintain a pure 1 Mut/1 finisher rotation (assuming a 4+ CP finisher rotation, I suppose going pure 1 Mut/1 finish regardless of CPs might be worth looking at come to think of it)...with 30% crit pre-Mut talent you'll have about a 70% chance to generate 3 CPs with each mutilate. Combined with a 60% proc chance on Ruthlessness and you're looking at being able to do 1 Mut/1 finisher about 40% of the time (perhaps as high as 50% with 4-piece T4). Still, that's a a nice bump over the 30% chance you've got without the talent.
At end-game stage one has around 40% raidbuffed crit, which would mean a 55-60% on mutilate.
As for how much this can actually help mutilate raiding... Note that we haven't seen s4 weapons, so it's too early to tell, but by the looks of it, unless sporting Crux+Shiv it's not going to change much.

Now if they'd change it a selfbuff that's active for 10 seconds after a Backstab or Mutilate...
Although that would probably be break more things than just fixing daggers.

On the 100% avoidance tanking... It would make Kalecgos quite easy, although I won't spoil it, banhammer I like not.
I need to get my avoidance gear done before 2.4 goes live for that though.

Last edited by Grunge : 02/20/08 at 9:45 PM.
#1548SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Belakor
Combat Daggers

Ok so, tonight I snagged Boundless Agony and Tracker's Blade for when they buff Mutilate (finally!), and since the daggers look so awesome, and combat daggers can be just plain fun sometimes, I decided to give it a shot in the Rogue Gear Spreadsheet. Now, I plugged in cookie cutter 15/41/5, and for kicks decided to take out two points from Opportunity and put them in Murder and saw about a fifteen DPS increase (on the sheet). I'm not sure if there's a discrepancy in the sheet or something, but do you think that 17/41/3 might be a bit better than what is the currently accepted combat daggers cookie cutter? Again, going Combat Daggers kind of nerfs you as it is, but it is kind of fun.
#1549SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Aldriana
Well, so the key about that is that the Murder estimate in that spreadsheet does not make any assumption about what fraction of mobs you face are Murderable. It's certainly true that 17/41/3 will do more damage than 15/41/5 against the targets Murder effects - but against everything else, it'll be significantly less. So which is better? Sort of up to you. But with the lack of Murderable mobs in BT/Hyjal, I'd someone lean towards skipping Murder for more general-purpose damage.
#1550SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Belakor
Yeah, that does make alot of sense. I totally overlooked that. Thanks =)
#1551SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Pcr
Vulajin i just wanted to clear something. You said you hadn't done the last 4 fights in BT? i am highly surprised at this? i thought for certain you had cleared the game.

i am not meaning this to be an insult so don't take it that way. i just have always thought of you as a complete in-game information source and i am surprised to hear that you haven't cleared the game.

i don't think it invalidates anything you have said as you have added a ton to these forums. just asking for my own intrigue.
#1552SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3monkorn
There really aren't any threat issues. The beauty of the spec is you will be earning ~80% dodge with setup and 12% parry for riposte. You will literally be spamming finishers just as much as hemo. Makes me curious if 11/10/40 would be better threat generation though.

Going through your list besides the wrong threat issues, ShS lurkers Geyser, and after A'lars bombings to keep the threat pumping. You can survive a kael fireball, it's just going to hurt a whole lot. Optimal? Maybe not.

This leaves Vashj, MTing Fathom-Lord Karathress and Solarion. I'd say that is viable enough. While Shakers point is mostly valid, we haven't seen Kil'jeaden yet. :p And easing fights up for healers is always a good bonus. But yeah, sure. The gimmick factor is a large reason I want to see it happen.
what do you really think is gained by going to the immense effort and expenditure to gear up a complete gimmick tank?
I'd like to point out that the only non-rogue item you are taking in above t5 content is the trinket from bloodboil, and even that might be able to be subbed in with the new sunwell heroic trinket or similar. ~15 crimson spinels is kind of crazy especially because they are already so needed, but anything for a main tank. ^_^;

I was just going to keep further discussion to the linked thread, but if you want to keep going I'm all for responding to critiques.
#1553SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Vulajin
Originally Posted by Pcr View Post
Vulajin i just wanted to clear something. You said you hadn't done the last 4 fights in BT? i am highly surprised at this? i thought for certain you had cleared the game.

i am not meaning this to be an insult so don't take it that way. i just have always thought of you as a complete in-game information source and i am surprised to hear that you haven't cleared the game.

i don't think it invalidates anything you have said as you have added a ton to these forums. just asking for my own intrigue.
You will find a great many people have yet to clear the game. My guild is 5/5 3/9, but we've worked on Teron and I've extensively researched RoS because that's our next raid target. If Archimonde didn't suck so much to re-kill, we'd certainly be looking at 5/5 5/9 by the end of this week. This is all horribly off-topic, of course, as is any discussion of rogue tanks, which is why I will not be responding any further on that point either.
#1554SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Aldriana
I think this is another example of why the "but Nihilum does X" argument doesn't fly. Membership in a top raid guild is correlated with one's willingness to devote time to raiding (and, to some extent, luck) more so than any particular theorycrafting aptitude. So, just like there are lots of highly advanced rogues that don't have a clue what they're doing, there's some rather exceptionally knowledgeable rogues that aren't particularly advanced in terms of raiding... which is why you'll sometimes hear requests on these forums for information about later bosses and drops.
#1555SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3NvidiaN
Assuming 2.4 goes through as is with the mentioned rogue changes, will the changes made to improved backstab (increasing mutilate critical strike chance by 15% when maxed out) make mutilate more worthwhile in raids?
#1556SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Jakani
Originally Posted by NvidiaN View Post
Assuming 2.4 goes through as is with the mentioned rogue changes, will the changes made to improved backstab (increasing mutilate critical strike chance by 15% when maxed out) make mutilate more worthwhile in raids?
There's a discussion going on about Mutilate here: [Rogue] Mutilate Raid DPS Discussion
#1557SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Shaker
Yeah, just for transparency purposes, my guild is 3/5 0/9 (though we're stepping into BT for the first time tonight).
#1558SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Voxx
Sorry to troll, but I was making a quick look at the Rogue finishers and combo point efficiency etc and it crossed my mind that the first point spent on each and every finisher is by far the most efficient in terms of damage/buff uptime per combo point. Take a look at Slice and Dice, it's 12 seconds (talented) for the first point, and only an addition 3 seconds for each point after that. Surely under these circumstances using 1 point finishers would yield a higher dps than the standard cycles? For instance, 1 point SnD, 1 point Rupture, 1 point Evisc while Rupture is ticking away and then possibly a new 1 point Rupture before refreshing SnD.

Naturally, combo points gained for free would have no effect on this because they're free and therefore don't impact the amount of energy being spent in total. Also, in regards to energy gained from 5 point finishers, since it's a 20% chance per cp you should theoretically get the same amount of energy back over the total duration of the fight by spamming 1 point finishers as you would by using fewer 5 point finishers.

In any case, I could be missing something horribly obvious, feel free to correct me with impunity if I am.
#1559SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Aldriana
So, I think there's two main things that you're overlooking.

First, Relentless Strikes means larger finishers cost less energy; thus, there is some abstract advantage to doing larger ones.

Secondly: Finishers are only useful to the extent that they convert energy into damage with a higher efficiency than your combo point generator. As it turns out, while the damage per *combo point* is higher at low numbers of combo points, that's not very meaningful since the damage per *energy* is lower - in fact, the damage per energy of a 1 point Eviscerate is significantly lower than that of a Sinister Strike.

Fundamentally, Combo Points are only worth damage to the extent that they improve the efficiency of your damage-per-energy efficiency, so at the very least you want to save them up till they actually increase your DPE efficiency rather than lowering it. In practice, it has been shown - both in practice and via the spreadsheets - that compressing SnD tends to be worthwhile, but compressing the other finishers is not - which is why, for instance, the optimal Combat Swords cycle consists of doing the largest possible Rupture and the smallest possible SnD (for most rogues, anyway).
#1560SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Cyn
energy spent for the combo point.

1 sinister strike + 1 rupture = 40 energy + 25 energy ( -5 for the 20% chance of a refund from relentless) = 60 energy for a sinister strike, and a pathetic damage rupture

5 sinister strike + 1 rupture = 200 energy + 25 energy ( -25 for the 100% chance of a refund from relentless) = 200 energy for 5 sinister strikes, and a much stronger rupture.

Looking purely at sinister strike in these circumstances, in one circumstance, sinister strike is 60energy per CP of the finisher, and in the other it's 40, not only that, but in the second case, rupture does more damage.

This is over simplified, but i believe it shows pretty clearly the hole.

(edit: Should probably just let Aldriana explain everything in future.)
#1561SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Voxx
Ah right, didn't look at the DPE of the damage finishers. Thanks.
#1562SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Windcomfort
Fist/Sword vs Fist/Fist base on 2.4 new weapon

Since 2.4 new badge loot released, we can see there are 2 new fist weapons. My question is base on the same armors, which combination will be higher DPS output?

Fist/Sword talent
[Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality]
[Akil'zon's Talonblade]

Fist/Fist talent
[Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality]
[Vanir's Left Fist of Savagery]

Anyone can help me? Thanks.

Last edited by Windcomfort : 02/22/08 at 8:11 PM.
#1563SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Rerox
Originally Posted by Windcomfort View Post
Since 2.4 new badge loot released, we can see there are 2 new fist weapons. My question is base on the same armors, which combination will be higher DPS output?
Well you simply could have entered the items into one of the readily available spreadsheets and would already have the solution. Or you might have looked at the items and noticed that not only does the OH claw have more dps, it also has better stats than the ZA sword (which can be expected when you compare an iLevel 132 sword with an Level 146 claw).

Considering the "dual spec" claw/fist you mention it's also worth noting that you didn't tell where you would distribute the 5 talentpoints from swordspec into, when only speccing into claw.

Nevertheless: dual claw is suprerior to claw/ZA-sword, but how much better depends on what you do with the 5 talentpoints more than on the OH weapon.
#1564SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3leebis
Mutilate

A couple weeks ago I switched to mutilate for fun. Suddenly we have Puncturing Wounds.

Aldriana:

"(Puncturing Wounds) helps, to be sure. And (mutilate) might even be close enough that we now need to devote some attention to modeling it. But I suspect on the whole it still runs behind Combat swords at equal itemization."

So if I spec mutilate on either of the spreadsheets I may not get accurate gear upgrade suggestions or reliable stat values?

15% more mutilate crit means: More combo points, more relentless strikes procs, more find weakness uptime, more Talisman of Lethality uptime, and significantly more crit damage, among other things I might be forgetting.

We can be almost certain that Puncturing Wounds will position mutilate differently among pve rogue raiding specs. Are we content to let it's new position remain a mystery?
#1565SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Windcomfort
Originally Posted by Rerox View Post
Well you simply could have entered the items into one of the readily available spreadsheets and would already have the solution. Or you might have looked at the items and noticed that not only does the OH claw have more dps, it also has better stats than the ZA sword (which can be expected when you compare an iLevel 132 sword with an Level 146 claw).

Considering the "dual spec" claw/fist you mention it's also worth noting that you didn't tell where you would distribute the 5 talentpoints from swordspec into, when only speccing into claw.

Nevertheless: dual claw is suprerior to claw/ZA-sword, but how much better depends on what you do with the 5 talentpoints more than on the OH weapon.
Thanks Rerox. My software got problem on open the spreadsheets. Sure the claw stats are mouch better then sword. How about if the talent according to Vulajin suggestion (both fist/sword and fist talent) in the 1st message?
#1566SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3lawl
The information regarding executioner vs. mongoose in the first post is vague.

Could we get some specifics other than, "sometime around T6?"

For example:
I am "in T6" (gloves only) and I'm getting my S3 main hand on Tuesday and I want to know if I should put executioner or mongoose on it.

I do not have a WSC. My only armor pen would be my T6 gloves and my S3 MH (and OH a week later).

How much passive armor pen from my armor + weapons do I need to make executioner superior to mongoose?
#1567SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Aldriana
Originally Posted by leebis View Post
A couple weeks ago I switched to mutilate for fun. Suddenly we have Puncturing Wounds.

Aldriana:

"(Puncturing Wounds) helps, to be sure. And (mutilate) might even be close enough that we now need to devote some attention to modeling it. But I suspect on the whole it still runs behind Combat swords at equal itemization."

So if I spec mutilate on either of the spreadsheets I may not get accurate gear upgrade suggestions or reliable stat values?

15% more mutilate crit means: More combo points, more relentless strikes procs, more find weakness uptime, more Talisman of Lethality uptime, and significantly more crit damage, among other things I might be forgetting.

We can be almost certain that Puncturing Wounds will position mutilate differently among pve rogue raiding specs. Are we content to let it's new position remain a mystery?
Well, if you manage to spec Mutilate in the Rogue Gear sheet, I'll be seriously impressed as it's not even supported. The DPS sheet has an estimate that is... decent, I think. I haven't spent a whole lot of time looking at it, but there are definitely some subtleties missing.

From ballpark estimates done by various people, Puncturing Wounds will bring Mutilate closer to Combat Swords, but still decidedly behind at equivalent itemization.

It would be nice to come up with a more detailed model of it including all the subtleties; it's just a matter of someone taking the time to do so.

Originally Posted by lawl View Post
The information regarding executioner vs. mongoose in the first post is vague.

Could we get some specifics other than, "sometime around T6?"

For example:
I am "in T6" (gloves only) and I'm getting my S3 main hand on Tuesday and I want to know if I should put executioner or mongoose on it.

I do not have a WSC. My only armor pen would be my T6 gloves and my S3 MH (and OH a week later).

How much passive armor pen from my armor + weapons do I need to make executioner superior to mongoose?
The first post is a bit outdated on the question of Mongoose vs Executioner. The value of Executioner was being overestimated due to a bug in the Rogue Gear sheet. The new answer for Mongoose vs Executioner is that Mongoose is better in almost all circumstances.
#1568SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Dontmindme
The DPS Spreadsheet should give a very good estimation (when it is updated to include the change). Although, there is a post in the DPS Spreadsheet thread that describes how to implement that change right now.

3/4 of the cycle sheets are devoted to Mutilate. This code was in existence before my involvement with the spreadsheet, but it really is rather brilliant work. As soon as the Seal Fate bug issue was resolved, the Mutilate damage estimates are looking good. It takes an average of a number of possible cycles (given that Mutilate and Seal Fate can have variable cycle lengths).

It's not perfectly accurate (if one wants to talk subtlety) but neither is either spreadsheet. Neither spreadsheet accounts for every possibility of cycles given various up or down times of haste effects (clearly a cycle will get more Combat Potency procs when DST is up than when its not), so clearly some "subtlety" is lost even in the Gear spreadsheet. I suggest that until someone actually spends the time to write one of these long talked about Mutilate combat simulators or implements a better estimation in a spreadsheet, the DPS spreadsheet is still the best available model for Mutilate.

Looking over the Mutilate code, its one of the finer pieces of code in the spreadsheet and gives a very decent estimation of one's DPS (and resulting equivalencies). As such, its a very low priority for any sort of overhaul. There are other issues that are scheduled for improvement; other minor bugs that have been discovered; other things that will continue to improve every version.

The short story: Make the change suggested in the DPS thread (or wait for next update - probably next weekend). See for yourself where your DPS comes out relative to other specs. I believe the results should be in the ballpark as it compares to other specs in actuality.
#1569SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Raconzor
@Windcomfort

Using the dps spreadsheet, I compared

Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality
Vanir's Left Fist of Savagery

with

Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality
Akil'zon's Talonblade

For fist/fist I used this spec, for fist/sword I used this one.

The DPS spreadsheet reported a 20 dps, or 1.4%, increase when using fist/fist. The rest of the gear was my own, top T4 gemmed/enchanted etc.

Hope that answers the question ... I was curious too.
#1570SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Windcomfort
Thanks Raconzor. Your reply is very helpful!
#1571SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Avitus
Hi there. Been reading a bit on the expertise info here in order to apply it to a ret paladin and according to your the first page:

Originally Posted by Vulajin View Post
Your base chance to be dodged by a raid boss with any attack is thought to be 6.5%. For each 3.94 expertise rating you equip, you gain 1 expertise, reducing your chance to be dodged by 0.25% (thus it takes exactly 15.77 expertise rating to reduce your chance to be dodged by 1%). Thus, we can calculate expertise caps for various combinations of talents and racial abilities:

0/2 Weapon Expertise, non-Human: 103
1/2 Weapon Expertise, non-Human: 83
2/2 Weapon Expertise, non-Human: 64
0/2 Weapon Expertise, Human (wielding swords or maces): 83
1/2 Weapon Expertise, Human: 64
2/2 Weapon Expertise, Human: 44

Isn't the base dodge chance of a level 73 mob 5.6% (not 6.5%)?

From WoWWiki:

A Boss-mobs parry is increased by 0.04 for every point of weapon skill it has over your level based defense, and its dodge is increased by 0.04 for every point of level based defense it has over your level based defense. At level 70 you have 350 level based defense. At level 73 a Boss-mob has 365 level based Defense and Weapon Skill, giving it 0.04*15 additional parry and dodge %. Meaning it gains 0.6% to Dodge and Parry. Ontop of it's base 5% parry, this gives a total of 5.6%. To negate 5.6% dodge and parry 23 points of expertise (or 89.7 points of expertise rating) are needed.
Is the 6.5% the calculations are based on a typo or am I missing something?
#1572SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Aldriana
It has been experimentally determined to be higher than 5.6%. Wowwiki is wrong.

I've heard tests saying both 6.25% and 6.5%; to me, 6.5% seems more plausible, but, regardless, it's definitely not 5.6%.
#1573SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
 Avitus
I see, thanks for the quick reply. Not the first time wowwiki lists something that is later proven wrong by this forum (the old weapon skill human racial giving ~3% hit), was thrown off by the discrepancy since WoWWiki is listing this thread as its source however.

Any chance of a link to the test results (my searchfu fails me in the 63 page thread)?

Last edited by Avitus : 02/23/08 at 1:37 AM.
#1574SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Scheme
From 2.0 up until skill on gear was changed to expertise, and the corresponding racials were changed from skill to expertise, the human (and orc) racials did indeed give about 3% hit.
#1575SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Avitus
Originally Posted by Scheme View Post
From 2.0 up until skill on gear was changed to expertise, and the corresponding racials were changed from skill to expertise, the human (and orc) racials did indeed give about 3% hit.
Yep, and for a very long time it was stated as 2% hit on WoWWiki and was later corrected by this forum Guess my brackets were a bit ambiguous.
#1576SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Beefyfife
2.4 Combat fists vs Combat swords

Originally Posted by Raconzor View Post
Using the dps spreadsheet, I compared

Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality
Vanir's Left Fist of Savagery

with

Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality
Akil'zon's Talonblade

For fist/fist I used this spec, for fist/sword I used this one.

The DPS spreadsheet reported a 20 dps, or 1.4%, increase when using fist/fist. The rest of the gear was my own, top T4 gemmed/enchanted etc.
Disregarding for a second about the discrepency with the 5 points not in combat swords, realizing you can't entirely do that, out of the gate, is it better to purchase the Season 3 equivalent fists then attempt to acquire a main and off sword for combat swords? Also i haven't seen any charts yet comparing swords vs fists from the PTR but what is the overall assessment of the max DPS with these new items? And due to this does this combination of combat fists beat combat swords?

Also, someone commented on possible profession combinations, (i do not remember the page it was originally on), I personally am Max Engineer(390 gnome racial) and Max LW so when 2.4 comes out, I can make 3 pieces of gear

Gloves of Immortal Dusk
Carapace of Sun and Shadow
Quad Deathblow X44 Goggles

and receive the BoE ring from a JC

Hard Khorium Band

and buy with badges (if fists prove to be equal if not better),

Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality (105 badges)
Vanir's Left Fist of Savagery (45 badges)
Trousers of the Scryers' Retainer (100 badges)

from badges for 7 pieces of loot when its all said and done.

That's the best combination imo. However, I respect anyone else who can argue with it.
#1577SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3rhea
A quick question regarding the issue about fist vs sword above, how about this combo?

Talon of Azshara
Vanir's Left fist (vs akil'zon)

With this spec?

The thing is I miss sword spec akilzon but gain alot more stats (and dps on weapon). Talon has higher max dmg and slower speed for hemorrhage (vs the Vanir's Right fist).

Sorry for not having a working spreadsheet of my own :o
#1578SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Sarlock
Originally Posted by rhea View Post
A quick question regarding the issue about fist vs sword above, how about this combo?

Talon of Azshara
Vanir's Left fist (vs akil'zon)

With this spec?

The thing is I miss sword spec akilzon but gain alot more stats (and dps on weapon). Talon has higher max dmg and slower speed for hemorrhage (vs the Vanir's Right fist).

Sorry for not having a working spreadsheet of my own :o
The reason Fist/sword spec is better is because extra attacks with offhand proc the mainhand
#1579SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Raconzor
I strongly suspect that your dps would be higher with both fists. With a mainhand sword offhand fist, sword spec will proc infrequently, to the point of not being a worthwhile use of talent points. In addition, the damage range on the right fist vs. talon is quite close, 4 points lower isn't a big difference, and the weapon dps is 5 higher - that's like the difference between S2 and S3 weapons.

That said, I don't have time at the moment to plug it all in to the spreadsheet.
#1580SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
schnaxine
After playing around with the spreadsheet, I have tried to formulate a rule of thumb regarding the new fist weapons and a 19/41+1 talent build.
(settings: roguedps 2.4.0.3, my gear: ToA//merc offhand, 4x T5, standard (raid) buffs)

My question is if you got the same results (with other gear combinations) and can confirm them.


With single weapon specialization
The new fist set for badges of justice is an upgrade in terms of your personal dps, even the loss of sword specialization for fist specialization taken into account, if both the following conditions are true:

- You do not have a [Warglaive of Azzinoth] and/or an offhand [Warglaive of Azzinoth]
- You do not have a [Blade of Savagery] with any of those main hand swords: [Vengeful Gladiator's Slicer], [Blade of Infamy], [Talon of Azshara]

With dual weapon specialization
Talent Build

Numbers are compared to [Talon of Azshara] + [Blade of Savagery], which is the "weakest" sword combination that beats dual fists and [Vengeful Gladiator's Slicer] + [Blade of Savagery], which is the best sword combo apart from warglaives and sunwell loot.
[Talon of Azshara] + [Blade of Savagery]: 0
[Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality] + [Merciless Gladiator's Quickblade]: -0.73%
[Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality] + [Vengeful Gladiator's Quickblade]: +/- 0%
[Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality] + [Blade of Savagery]: + 1.02%
[Vengeful Gladiator's Slicer] + [Blade of Savagery]: + 0.54%

Conclusion: [Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality] main hand fist combined with [Blade of Savagery] offhand sword and dual weapon specialization specced provides the highest DPS for a deep combat build without warglaives and sunwell plateau loot.

Last edited by schnaxine : 02/23/08 at 10:41 AM. Reason: item tags added for improved readability
#1581SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Ticia
Originally Posted by schnaxine View Post
With dual weapon specialization
Talent Build

Numbers are compared to [Talon of Azshara] + [Blade of Savagery], which is the "weakest" sword combination that beats dual fists and [Vengeful Gladiator's Slicer] + [Blade of Savagery], which is the best sword combo apart from warglaives and sunwell loot.
[Talon of Azshara] + [Blade of Savagery]: 0
[Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality] + [Merciless Gladiator's Quickblade]: -0.73%
[Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality] + [Vengeful Gladiator's Quickblade]: +/- 0%
[Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality] + [Blade of Savagery]: + 1.02%
[Vengeful Gladiator's Slicer] + [Blade of Savagery]: + 0.54%

Conclusion: [Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality] main hand fist combined with [Blade of Savagery] offhand sword and dual weapon specialization specced provides the highest DPS for a deep combat build without warglaives and sunwell plateau loot.

Quick question. When you ran the top and bottom cases (ToA + Savagery and Vengeful Slicer + Savagery) did you keep the dual-specialization talent spec? I ask because when using two swords in a mix/max situation you can stick those points from Fist Spec into poison talents in the Assassination tree, which will have a small but non-negligible impact on your dps.

When I ran similar calculations with the Rogue Gear Spreadsheet, I found that Vanir's Right Fist + Blade of Savagery (dual weapon specs) was slightly higher than Blade of Infamy + Blade of Savagery (Single Spec) but slightly lower than Vengeful Slicer + Blade of Savagery (Also Single Spec).

Of course we're talking about < 10 dps differences so I think it really comes down to what is practical / available to you.
#1582SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Alexsiss
Regarding mongoose vs Exec:

Ald assuming you have fixed the overvaluing of exec in the newest version of the gear spreadsheet. With full sunwell/dual glaives for 7685 AC on bosses.
Mongoose: 188.2
Exec: 187.108

Now if i lower the AC to 7600
Mongoose: 188.216
Exec: 188.414

From then on exec beats it all the way to 6200 ending at
Mongoose: 188.481
Exec: 212.801

With my current gear:
7685 AC
Mongoose: 179.277
Exec: 175.856
6200 AC
Mongoose: 180.511
Exec: 178.023

So is Sunwell gear the point of inflection between when exec will always outweigh mongoose? Until then mongoose is better?
#1583SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Aldriana
Depends on exactly what buffs you run with, and to some extent what trinkets you have available to you. Also note that this answer is somewhat subject to what further loots become available in Sunwell.

Anyway, using the default buffs in the sheet and full Sunwell + Warglaives gear, I show Mongoose 9 DPS ahead on 7700 armor bosses (1986 to 1977) and 1 DPS ahead on 6200 armor bosses (2201 to 2200). Using the buffs my guild actually raids with, Mongoose wins by 6 on 7700 armor bosses (2294 to 2288) and 2 on low-armor bosses (2564 to 2562). So for me, at every conceivable level of itemization, Mongoose appears to be better.

This is not to say that there don't exist combinations of gear and buff that will make Executioner better for people; I'm sure such things exist, and I don't want to discourage people from checking for themselves - that's why we have spreadsheets, after all. But for me, at least, Executioner never catches up to Mongoose in terms of DPS given all known sunwell itemization... though the arrival of new trinkets could change the situation.

Now, it also might be noted that this is just a DPS computation. I know many of you disagree with me about this (which is fine), but the fact that Mongoose also gives some dodge should also be remembered. I know in theory we should never be taking hits and thus never need to dodge anything, but, lets face it, these things happen. And having an extra 6+% dodge 40% of the time strikes me as potentially useful in that respect. Is it worth trading a *lot* of DPS for? Certainly not. But personally, even if I wound up in a situation where Executioner was 2 additional DPS relative to Mongoose, I'd probably still use Mongoose, since a .1% reduction in DPS seems a reasonable trade for that amount of dodge.
#1584SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Crackeyez
My guild is just getting into ssc... I do a lot of heroics and run kara for badges. Looking at 2.4 i have decided it is best for me to go fists with Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality and Vanir's Left Fist of Savagry. The best offhand sword i have atm is Merciless Gladiator's Quickblade, is it best in this situation to go fist/fist with both vanir's or fist/sword with vanir's mainhand and merciless offhand?

Last edited by Crackeyez : 02/24/08 at 3:20 PM.
#1585SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Azuj
Originally Posted by Crackeyez View Post
My guild is just getting into ssc... I do a lot of heroics and run kara for badges. Looking at 2.4 i have decided it is best for me to go fists with Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality and Vanir's Left Fist of Savagry. The best offhand sword i have atm is Merciless Gladiator's Quickblade, is it best in this situation to go fist/fist with both vanir's or fist/sword with vanir's mainhand and merciless offhand?
I don't see what you hope to gain by refusing to read even a single page's worth of posts which happen to cover this exact same topic. I notice you edited your post to remove the line of "PS Please run this through your spreadsheet since I don't have one"

I think it would do you good to take plenty of time to read over the first post of this thread, at the bottom there are two links provided to the Rogue DPS and Gear spreadsheets. Take your time playing with these spreadsheets to learn what's the best upgrades for you and after that, try reading the last 3-4 pages of the thread so you won't look like a fool by repeating a question that has been addressed and discussed over the last 10-15 posts.

Good luck.
#1586SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3mellowmarshall
Questions from a confused rogue

I am having some concerns about my dps versus other people at my level of progression. I'm pretty much set up in full T4/kara/badge gear, socketed with rigid dawnstone, etc. I use the 1s/5r cycles, I use relentless flasks and eat spicy talbuk, I pop my cooldowns often and try to use them at the same time if possible. Here is the situation:

We have another rogue in my guild, who constantly outdoes me. He does not use rupture, does not socket hit rating, uses instant poison over deadly, eats AP food, does not follow cycles. He has 2pc T5, I have 4pc T4. He's got about 80 AP on me, I have about 40 hit rating on him (60 when using talbuk food). Last night in SSC, in a perfect melee dps group of fury war, enh shaman, feral druid, and two rogues, he was ahead of me in dps by almost 300, his 1160 to my 880.

My ruptures did more damage than his eviscerates, my DP did more damage than his IP, I gained more energy thru the fight, I got more hits. However, his average damage on melee hits was about 40 more and on crits 70 more. I believe it takes 14 AP to increase damage by 1, so his 40 damage is the equivalent of 560 AP???

This is not an isolated issue, either. He has been consistently doing a significant amount (1%+ of raid dps) more damage than me despite the fact that with my stats, I *should* be ahead in damage. What am I missing?

I am also concerned that other rogues in similar gear, at our level of progression, seem to be hitting much higher numbers in terms of dps than we are. I see WWS reports with rogues in similar (sometimes slightly better) gear doing 1300+ dps. Do other rogues chain haste pots or something? I can't figure out how to make my rogue do any more damage than he does, and yet I always seem to fall short.
#1587SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Zavior
A wws log might be helpful here. By a quick look at the armory, he/she seems to be using [Talon of Azshara] while you got season 1 mainhand. I'm not sure if that is enough to make that big difference though.
#1588SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Bloodsiren
Originally Posted by mellowmarshall View Post
I am having some concerns about my dps versus other people at my level of progression. I'm pretty much set up in full T4/kara/badge gear, socketed with rigid dawnstone, etc. I use the 1s/5r cycles, I use relentless flasks and eat spicy talbuk, I pop my cooldowns often and try to use them at the same time if possible. Here is the situation:

We have another rogue in my guild, who constantly outdoes me. He does not use rupture, does not socket hit rating, uses instant poison over deadly, eats AP food, does not follow cycles. He has 2pc T5, I have 4pc T4. He's got about 80 AP on me, I have about 40 hit rating on him (60 when using talbuk food). Last night in SSC, in a perfect melee dps group of fury war, enh shaman, feral druid, and two rogues, he was ahead of me in dps by almost 300, his 1160 to my 880.

My ruptures did more damage than his eviscerates, my DP did more damage than his IP, I gained more energy thru the fight, I got more hits. However, his average damage on melee hits was about 40 more and on crits 70 more. I believe it takes 14 AP to increase damage by 1, so his 40 damage is the equivalent of 560 AP???

This is not an isolated issue, either. He has been consistently doing a significant amount (1%+ of raid dps) more damage than me despite the fact that with my stats, I *should* be ahead in damage. What am I missing?

I am also concerned that other rogues in similar gear, at our level of progression, seem to be hitting much higher numbers in terms of dps than we are. I see WWS reports with rogues in similar (sometimes slightly better) gear doing 1300+ dps. Do other rogues chain haste pots or something? I can't figure out how to make my rogue do any more damage than he does, and yet I always seem to fall short.
I just looked at your specc too... is there any reason you skipped vitality? That extra agility is going to increase your AP and Crit % and I would think that would be more useful than the nerves or steel or even the imp poisons. It might just mean that the other rogue is getting more AP and more crits as a result. Just a guess though.
#1589SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3neg^
Originally Posted by mellowmarshall View Post
I am having some concerns about my dps versus other people at my level of progression. I'm pretty much set up in full T4/kara/badge gear, socketed with rigid dawnstone, etc. I use the 1s/5r cycles, I use relentless flasks and eat spicy talbuk, I pop my cooldowns often and try to use them at the same time if possible. Here is the situation:

We have another rogue in my guild, who constantly outdoes me. He does not use rupture, does not socket hit rating, uses instant poison over deadly, eats AP food, does not follow cycles. He has 2pc T5, I have 4pc T4. He's got about 80 AP on me, I have about 40 hit rating on him (60 when using talbuk food). Last night in SSC, in a perfect melee dps group of fury war, enh shaman, feral druid, and two rogues, he was ahead of me in dps by almost 300, his 1160 to my 880.

My ruptures did more damage than his eviscerates, my DP did more damage than his IP, I gained more energy thru the fight, I got more hits. However, his average damage on melee hits was about 40 more and on crits 70 more. I believe it takes 14 AP to increase damage by 1, so his 40 damage is the equivalent of 560 AP???

This is not an isolated issue, either. He has been consistently doing a significant amount (1%+ of raid dps) more damage than me despite the fact that with my stats, I *should* be ahead in damage. What am I missing?

I am also concerned that other rogues in similar gear, at our level of progression, seem to be hitting much higher numbers in terms of dps than we are. I see WWS reports with rogues in similar (sometimes slightly better) gear doing 1300+ dps. Do other rogues chain haste pots or something? I can't figure out how to make my rogue do any more damage than he does, and yet I always seem to fall short.
The sheet models a static 10 min fight where you just get to stand still and whack away. There are no such fights in the game apart from maybe Morogrim depending on tombs. Hit rating is somewhat overrated in practise
#1590SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Zurgat
Originally Posted by schnaxine View Post
A
Conclusion: [Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality] main hand fist combined with [Blade of Savagery] offhand sword and dual weapon specialization specced provides the highest DPS for a deep combat build without warglaives and sunwell plateau loot.
Since you did not include the 4 points in vile poisons in that the resulting dps is a bit off.
If you were to spec swords+fists, you would lack those points, and in effect a good number in DPS from your offhand poison procs.

Could you test dual swords with 20/41 (4p vile poison) versus the talent build that you linked (with fist+sword offhand) ?

I feel this would give a more realistic view to compare the weapons with, as logically you wouldn't spec 5 points into fist spec if you aren't equipping those.
#1591SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Len
Originally Posted by Zurgat View Post
Since you did not include the 4 points in vile poisons in that the resulting dps is a bit off.
If you were to spec swords+fists, you would lack those points, and in effect a good number in DPS from your offhand poison procs.

Could you test dual swords with 20/41 (4p vile poison) versus the talent build that you linked (with fist+sword offhand) ?

I feel this would give a more realistic view to compare the weapons with, as logically you wouldn't spec 5 points into fist spec if you aren't equipping those.
I came to the same conclusion; the new 2.4 fist weapon and fist+swordspec is little better on excel than Blade of Infamy+poisonspec (offhand is Blade of Savagery in both cases, and rest of the eq is T6-level). Dropping 4 points from vile poisons is -11dps, putting 5 to fistspec and wielding Vanir's Right Fist gives +15.5dps. So, if you are missing Blade of Infamy, the fist is a bit better, as is S3 MH sword with poisonspec. Numbers are with normal raidbuffs and war+shaman.

The result isn't surprising, as I've been dualspecced before (MH kael's mace/OH S2 sword) and the excel has always followed reality closely enough.

Last edited by Len : 02/25/08 at 4:52 PM.
#1592SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Tayron
Originally Posted by Vulajin View Post
On spec choice: here's a rough ranking of PvE builds in terms of the personal DPS possible by each build at each tier of raid gear:

Tier 4:
  1. Combat swords (--) / Combat fist+sword (-0.12%) / Combat daggers (-0.51%)
  2. Combat fists (-1.10%) / Combat mace+sword (-1.80%)
  3. Combat maces (-3.27%)
  4. Hemo+swords (-5.06%) / Hemo+Combat Potency (swords) (-5.62%)
  5. Hemo+fists (-6.63%)
  6. Hemo+Deadliness (-7.65%)
  7. Hemo+maces (-8.49%)
  8. Shadowstep (-14.45%)

Tier 5:
  1. Combat swords (--) / Combat fist+sword (-0.22%)
  2. Combat mace+sword (-1.15%) / Combat fists (-1.45%) / Combat daggers (-1.49%)
  3. Combat maces (-2.64%)
  4. Hemo+swords (-4.95%)
  5. Hemo+Combat Potency (swords) (-5.52%)
  6. Hemo+fists (-6.85%)
  7. Hemo+Deadliness (-7.17%) / Hemo+maces (-7.85%)
  8. Shadowstep (-13.91%)

Tier 6:
  1. Combat swords (--) / Combat fist+sword (-0.29%) / Combat mace+sword (-0.93%)
  2. Combat fists (-1.71%)
  3. Combat maces (-2.52%)
  4. Combat daggers (-3.16%)
  5. Hemo+swords (-5.93%)
  6. Hemo+Combat Potency (swords) (-6.09%)
  7. Hemo+fists (-8.05%) / Hemo+Deadliness (-8.33%) / Hemo+maces (-8.73%)
  8. Shadowstep (-15.79%)
Hey there, can anyone please explain to me, how it comes that Combat Daggers start with only -0,5% compared to Swords in Tier 4 and in Tier 6 even come out after Combat Maces? Is this only due to the weapons available (assuming used spreadsheet to determine every builds dps), meaning the maces are simply better than the daggers?
#1593SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Zurgat
Originally Posted by Len View Post
I came to the same conclusion; the new 2.4 fist weapon and fist+swordspec is little better on excel than Blade of Infamy+poisonspec (offhand is Blade of Savagery in both cases, and rest of the eq is T6-level). Dropping 4 points from vile poisons is -11dps, putting 5 to fistspec and wielding Vanir's Right Fist gives +15.5dps. So, if you are missing Blade of Infamy, the fist is a bit better, as is S3 MH sword with poisonspec. Numbers are with normal raidbuffs and war+shaman.

The result isn't surprising, as I've been dualspecced before (MH kael's mace/OH S2 sword) and the excel has always followed reality closely enough.

The World of Warcraft Armory
Aye, i did some further testing.

Switching from 20/41 [Vengeful Gladiator's Slicer], to 16/45 [Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality], causes a loss of ~3.85 dps
Switching from 20/41 [Blade of Infamy], to 16/45 [Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality], causes a gain of ~2 dps.

Quite surprising, though largely caused by the stats on the fist vs the lack of stats on the pvp sword.

Last edited by Zurgat : 02/25/08 at 9:46 AM.
#1594SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3schnaxine
Originally Posted by Zurgat View Post
Since you did not include the 4 points in vile poisons in that the resulting dps is a bit off.
If you were to spec swords+fists, you would lack those points, and in effect a good number in DPS from your offhand poison procs.
I've used 0/5 vile poisons, 0/2 nerves of steel for fist/sword dual weapon spec and 3/5 vile, 2/2 nerves of steel for combat swords. Sorry, should have added exact talent builds in my previous post, my bad.
#1595SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Hanos
Originally Posted by schnaxine View Post
I've used 0/5 vile poisons, 0/2 nerves of steel for fist/sword dual weapon spec and 3/5 vile, 2/2 nerves of steel for combat swords. Sorry, should have added exact talent builds in my previous post, my bad.
4/5 Vile would be a better comparison since you are picking up DPS talents by going Fist Spec, so you should compare it to a build where you put those 5 points in the highest possible DPS talents remaining when going Sword Spec. The normal build in my experience is 4/5 Vile and 1/2 Nerves of Steel.
#1596SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Storac
I am old school, and I am currently useing a [Drake Fang Talisman] how does that rank up
#1597SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Left
Originally Posted by Storac View Post
I am old school, and I am currently useing a [Drake Fang Talisman] how does that rank up
Worse than almost any level 70 purple trinket. Worse than [Abacus of Violent Odds] or [Hourglass of the Unraveller]. Slightly better than [Icon of Unyielding Courage]. Worse than [Skyguard Silver Cross], as the Skyguard proc won't go off in a boss fight.

If you need more specific answers, try a spreadsheet.
#1598SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Ozzmar
Do we need to start a "Help Me Please?" thread for rogues? The past few pages of this have been riddled with people asking questions that could have been answered in 5 minutes of research. Repeatedly answering these kinds of questions isn't helping someone who actually IS putting in the effort to find information they need.
#1599SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Storac
Originally Posted by Ozzmar View Post
Do we need to start a "Help Me Please?" thread for rogues? The past few pages of this have been riddled with people asking questions that could have been answered in 5 minutes of research. Repeatedly answering these kinds of questions isn't helping someone who actually IS putting in the effort to find information they need.
Do you need a hug?

I was just curious man relax. It wasn't listed nor does it have a prock or use so I was just looking for some imput.

No go drink a moutian dew, come back and bless me with your eternal rogue knowlege
#1600SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Ozzmar
Originally Posted by Storac View Post
Do you need a hug?

I was just curious man relax. It wasn't listed nor does it have a prock or use so I was just looking for some imput.

No go drink a moutian dew, come back and bless me with your eternal rogue knowlege
This wasn't directed at you at all man; I don't think I'm the one that needs to relax. I will take a Mountain Dew though!

I was just pointing out that if someone wanted to rack up their first 10 posts by saying "Go download the spreadsheet and see for yourself" in this thread alone, it could probably be done in a day.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Roguecraft 101 could also be titled "Things every rogue should know", and any following posts should be suggestions for additions or debates about the information within. Frankly (and again, I'm not attacking you), posts asking for gear help are just cluttering the thread.
#1601SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Dontmindme
Originally Posted by Zavior View Post
A wws log might be helpful here. By a quick look at the armory, he/she seems to be using [Talon of Azshara] while you got season 1 mainhand. I'm not sure if that is enough to make that big difference though.
I'm going to say this is probably the biggest factor. Your mainhand weapon means a lot. All your specials use this base damage. Sword Specialization will be proccing the mainhand and gaining more AP from the slightly slower Talon. Specials do not gain from the weapon speed due to normalization but extra attacks will. The difference from S1 to S2 or Talon is definitely noticeable. I recall a nice jump in DPS when I got my S2 mainhand.

To quantify the approximate difference, one could use one of the spreadsheets...
#1602SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Balkoth
But it will probably be a difference of 50-75 DPS, max. I can of course run this information through when I get home and have a spreadsheet available, but the main hand difference alone does not equate to a DPS difference of 300. One thing I am wondering though: when you say your DPS is 300 lower, how are you measuring DPS? Average DPS (total damage divided by total time) or instantaneous DPS (DPS when you're actually DPSing and not over the course of the entire encounter, breaks and all)?
#1603SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Dontmindme
I was going more by the 1%+ more raid dps line...

One explanation for the discrepancy in either WWS or SWStats DPS between someone using Rupture and Eviscerate is because of the nature of Rupture. Your displayed DPS will often be lower using Rupture because the bleed will increase your "in combat" time and Eviscerate will display a higher DPS but a lower "Presence".

If you are also looking at trash in those DPS calcs, you should consider using Eviscerate instead of Rupture, as you will not gain the full benefit of a Rupture given that the mob will die before it completes.

Beyond that, I can only think of the seemingly obvious things...
1) Are you always keeping SnD up? Are you timing it to not waste energy?
2) Are you always attacking from behind? (That ~13% parry rate plus possible blocks can really eat dps not to mention possibly ganking your tank).

Again, if its a WWS, seeing one would really help diagnose the issue....

Edit: I did notice one big thing...
Relentless Earthstorm Diamond, get it, use it, it's a big DPS upgrade...

Last edited by Dontmindme : 02/25/08 at 4:40 PM.
#1604SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Meldrid
SSC DPS

I am having some concerns about my dps versus other people at my level of progression. I'm pretty much set up in full T4/kara/badge gear, socketed with rigid dawnstone, etc. I use the 1s/5r cycles, I use relentless flasks and eat spicy talbuk, I pop my cooldowns often and try to use them at the same time if possible. Here is the situation:

We have another rogue in my guild, who constantly outdoes me. He does not use rupture, does not socket hit rating, uses instant poison over deadly, eats AP food, does not follow cycles. He has 2pc T5, I have 4pc T4. He's got about 80 AP on me, I have about 40 hit rating on him (60 when using talbuk food). Last night in SSC, in a perfect melee dps group of fury war, enh shaman, feral druid, and two rogues, he was ahead of me in dps by almost 300, his 1160 to my 880.

My ruptures did more damage than his eviscerates, my DP did more damage than his IP, I gained more energy thru the fight, I got more hits. However, his average damage on melee hits was about 40 more and on crits 70 more. I believe it takes 14 AP to increase damage by 1, so his 40 damage is the equivalent of 560 AP???

This is not an isolated issue, either. He has been consistently doing a significant amount (1%+ of raid dps) more damage than me despite the fact that with my stats, I *should* be ahead in damage. What am I missing?

I am also concerned that other rogues in similar gear, at our level of progression, seem to be hitting much higher numbers in terms of dps than we are. I see WWS reports with rogues in similar (sometimes slightly better) gear doing 1300+ dps. Do other rogues chain haste pots or something? I can't figure out how to make my rogue do any more damage than he does, and yet I always seem to fall short.
Something you may be overlooking is the use of Blade Flurry on trash, if this is where you produced your DPS values. For example, the guild I previously ran with ended up with two guardians being tanked side-to-side on Lurker trash pulls. As a result I was able to get off a full Blade Flurry on every platform pull, and an AR/BF on every second. In such cases I was easily topping total damage by around 20-30% (~1300 DPS if my memory serves me) while also being on Technician duty. This is, of course, only a select few pulls and not including any bosses, but I can't really see any other reason for you to be doing 300 less DPS than a, I'm assuming, fairly equally geared rogue. Other than that, I can't really say more than what's been said, and I'm just hoping you're not Rupturing mobs that are about to die.

Also, you said you got more hits than he did. Were you using SW Stats? If so, I don't think SWS records Blade Flurry hits as part of your "Normal" hits. It should also be easy to see if BF is the cause as his BF % when looking at his skill details should be much higher than yours.

If your DPS was obtained elsewhere, or more importantly from a boss fight where BF use will not have as much of an impact, then disregard my BF theory.

PS: I've been an avid reader of the EJ forums for months now, so decided it was time to try contribute! Keep up the great work and hope to see you downing Illidan in the near future, Vul.
#1605SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3charminultra
Currently, the Shadowstep specs that are listed in the OP seem, to me, a bit gimped. I can't understand why you would choose Cheat Death over Master of Subtlety (MoS). Cheat Death does not add any significant DPS boost while MoS does. Cheat Death prolongs the (usually) inevitable by 3 seconds. Master of Subtlety provides a 6 second 10% damage buff when coming out of stealth, which can be done up to about 3 times on your average boss fight when spec'd in Shadowstep. I don't understand why it was overlooked.

I propose the following specs be considered as Shadowstep specs:

Subtety/Assassination v1
Subtlety/Assassination v2
Subtlety/Combat v1
Subtlety/Comabt v2

I'd also like to suggest a method of playing Shadowstep that I've seen and tested personally. Given a boss that is bleedable:

1) Perform Premeditation
2) Shadowstep when in range
3) Garrote (~3-4 CPs)
4) Either SnD or Rupture (optimally SnD)
5) Hemo to 5 CPs
6) Rupture
7) Hemo to 2-3 CPs
8) SnD
9) Repeat 5-8

That is the standard rotation I work with while Shadowstep spec'd. While fighting I have timers to let me know when certain items/abilities are off of CD. Every 2min I pop my Bloodlust Brooch (278 AP for 20s) and, provided I have some with me, a Drums of Battle (+80 haste/spell haste rating to group); those two are macro'd together so I do not waste time clicking or pressing seperate buttons for each. I Shadowstep every 30 seconds to get the 20% damage buff to my next attack (usually a Hemo). I also use my vanish to not only drop threat but to use another Premeditation 2min into the fight which will garner another +20% damage buff to garrote from Shadowstepping again. i do that twice using Preparation, but I wait until the first garrote is done to pop the second. With Master of Subtlety the white hits and/or instant strikes I use coming right out of stealth gain a 10% damage buff for 6 seconds. It doesn't take an idiot to see there is a lot of damage output potential when optimally playing this spec.

Unfortunately, the WWS reports that outline the tests I did for comparing Shadowstep (using swords) vs. Combat Swords have expired and no longer available. The only thing I can do is give my word that the two specs are not as far off as spreadsheets seem to show. However, as soon as I can I will be recompiling new WWS reports showing two different sets of gear for the data (mainly for real world numbers for hit vs. ap). Currently my spec is Subtlety/Assassination v1, I may use v2 of Sub/Ass for the damage buff to garrote.

The first set: 4/5 T4 - 299 hit, 1982 AP unbuffed.
The second set: 2/5 T4 - 256 hit, 2027 AP unbuffed. Gloves and legs switched from T4 to Trickster's Stickfingers and Shallow-grave Trousers, however the enchants and gems stay the same.

I'm very interested in Shadowstep simply because I love the play style and it gives me more to do during a raid and, as I've seen, comparable to the #1 personal DPS spec.
#1606SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3neg^
Originally Posted by mellowmarshall View Post
I am having some concerns about my dps versus other people at my level of progression. I'm pretty much set up in full T4/kara/badge gear, socketed with rigid dawnstone, etc. I use the 1s/5r cycles, I use relentless flasks and eat spicy talbuk, I pop my cooldowns often and try to use them at the same time if possible. Here is the situation:

We have another rogue in my guild, who constantly outdoes me. He does not use rupture, does not socket hit rating, uses instant poison over deadly, eats AP food, does not follow cycles. He has 2pc T5, I have 4pc T4. He's got about 80 AP on me, I have about 40 hit rating on him (60 when using talbuk food). Last night in SSC, in a perfect melee dps group of fury war, enh shaman, feral druid, and two rogues, he was ahead of me in dps by almost 300, his 1160 to my 880.

My ruptures did more damage than his eviscerates, my DP did more damage than his IP, I gained more energy thru the fight, I got more hits. However, his average damage on melee hits was about 40 more and on crits 70 more. I believe it takes 14 AP to increase damage by 1, so his 40 damage is the equivalent of 560 AP???

This is not an isolated issue, either. He has been consistently doing a significant amount (1%+ of raid dps) more damage than me despite the fact that with my stats, I *should* be ahead in damage. What am I missing?

I am also concerned that other rogues in similar gear, at our level of progression, seem to be hitting much higher numbers in terms of dps than we are. I see WWS reports with rogues in similar (sometimes slightly better) gear doing 1300+ dps. Do other rogues chain haste pots or something? I can't figure out how to make my rogue do any more damage than he does, and yet I always seem to fall short.
To follow up with a more practical response;

I had about the same stats starting ssc/tk, and tried to hard to keep my hit rating up. Even though i lost almost 100 hit rating, my overall dmg went up as I gained ap and crit.

Hit and agi are close enough even in the almost non existant 10 min fight of endless combat the sheets model that you can't really go wrong with hit/agi gems in all red and most yellow sockets. As you gear up in tiers you'll keep a decent balance of hit/ap/crit without trying to socket specifically for any one stat. I've also found it easier to not load anyone one item with one stat, since I've had to resocket other gear after upgrading that slot.

Get RED meta gem, and socket for bonus in Nyn'jah's which is one of the better places for a blue gem(6 stam for 1 hit rating). Second blue in belt for lack of other options.
#1607SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Vulajin
Originally Posted by charminultra View Post
Currently, the Shadowstep specs that are listed in the OP seem, to me, a bit gimped. I can't understand why you would choose Cheat Death over Master of Subtlety (MoS). Cheat Death does not add any significant DPS boost while MoS does. Cheat Death prolongs the (usually) inevitable by 3 seconds. Master of Subtlety provides a 6 second 10% damage buff when coming out of stealth, which can be done up to about 3 times on your average boss fight when spec'd in Shadowstep. I don't understand why it was overlooked.

(snip...)
Your concerns are noted, but essentially what you are trying to do is improve the standing of an obviously suboptimal spec. Even with all of the min-maxing indicated by your post, your build will come up short of combat by far more than other Hemo specs. Answer me this: given that with a particular set of gear and weapons, it is entirely possible to spec either Shadowstep or combat swords, why would you take the lesser DPS spec intentionally? Additionally, if you were hellbent on providing the Hemo debuff, you could, again with the same set of gear and weapons, spec either 11/28/22 (assuming you have swords; 11/21/29 otherwise) or Shadowstep. Given that fact, again, why would you take the lesser DPS spec intentionally?

There is no reason to spec Shadowstep for raiding, ever. However, your advice is certainly sound advice for those who would rather not listen to reason.

Future versions of the first post (to be updated within the next week, most likely) will eliminate any ambiguity by removing the example Shadowstep specs and adding a clearer contraindication for Shadowstep specs in the "spec choice" section.
#1608SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3mmaker
Just played around with striking and stats on the ring enchant with aldrainas sheet. Striking is always more dps if your not having third pala(=kings) or melee shaman in your raid(party).

Also your suggestion for executioner on mainhand in late T6 level is outdated? Sheets says 2x mongoose is always more dps.
#1609SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Switchblade
Originally Posted by mmaker View Post
Just played around with striking and stats on the ring enchant with aldrainas sheet. Striking is always more dps if your not having third pala(=kings) or melee shaman in your raid(party).

Also your suggestion for executioner on mainhand in late T6 level is outdated? Sheets says 2x mongoose is always more dps.
Mongoose is the better option even in our current endgame gear. The main reason most rogues are going with executioner is preparation for sunwell gear, which has enormous amounts of armor ignore.
#1610SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Vulajin
Originally Posted by mmaker View Post
Just played around with striking and stats on the ring enchant with aldrainas sheet. Striking is always more dps if your not having third pala(=kings) or melee shaman in your raid(party).

Also your suggestion for executioner on mainhand in late T6 level is outdated? Sheets says 2x mongoose is always more dps.
Originally Posted by Switchblade View Post
Mongoose is the better option even in our current endgame gear. The main reason most rogues are going with executioner is preparation for sunwell gear, which has enormous amounts of armor ignore.
It's correct that the current suggestions for Mongoose vs. Executioner are outdated. They'll be fixed in the near future in an updated version of the post. For now, simply assume that all rogues should use dual Mongoose. I don't find "preparation for Sunwell gear" to be a good reason to use Executioner, as with all the passive armor penetration on that gear, you're more likely to waste the extra from Executioner on a fully-debuffed raid boss, provided it starts with 6200 armor. Though different bosses have different base amounts of armor, weapons are not usually in plentiful enough supply to alternate based on the situation. Mongoose will serve you well in either situation.
#1611SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3grog42
I'm itching to hear some thoughts on a Sub/Ass Hemo/Seal fate build. ----> Here <<<-- For the purposes of my argument I will compare to the reigning champion of specs. Combat swords focuses on the synergy of hit rating and haste rating with combat potency for extra damage through energy gains and massive white damage... Hemo/Seal fate on the mass production of cheap combo points for more finishing.

On a 2.8 speed weapon with 5/5 find weakness up, Hemo will hit as hard as a fully talented SS. I haven't yet had the opportunity to try this build in a raid setting but on my toon with a 20% crit chance it is possible to keep both SnD and 5pt ruptures up while throwing in _at least_ one evisc or envenom per rotation. Raid buffed and geared would most likely bring this to 2 4/5 point dd finishers per cycle. Timed right you can execute each rupture and direct finishers to land while find weakness is up. A 5 point finishing move will restore 25 energy - more than a combat potency proc will. Finishing nearly twice as often as a combat spec may not equal the total energy gain of combat potency + relentless but I will bet it comes close.

Gear would be heavily crit focused, gemming agility in red and +crit in yellow. Optimal trinkets would be Ashtongue Talisman of Lethality(20% per cp to grant 145 crit rating on finish), Tsunami Talisman(chance +AP on crit). Double Mongoose.

The utility of the subtlety tree cannot be ignored, though it's uses are diminished in a raid environment. 1 point in prep does wonders for a rogue's survivability by adding another evasion, sprint, and vanish. Ghostly strike makes evasion tanking adds 15% less dangerous. Needless to say they're all great talents but none really jump out and say PvE.

Short list of advantages and dis versus combat swords:

+: seal fate -> more finishing moves
+: find weakness -> 8% more ability damage (10% without prep)
+: hemo (slightly higher DpE than SS, double the CppE of Combat spec SS)
+: ~40% higher rupture damage
+: higher poison damage
+: quick recovery
+: attacks ignore 560 armor
+: 3.5 min vanish
+: ghostly strike
+: prep
+: cold blood
+: vigor
____________
-: lower hit
-: lower expertise
-: no weapon spec
-: lower offhand damage
all producing
-: much lower white damage
-: less benefit from hit and haste (the 2 favorite stats)
-: though maybe thats the egg not the chicken

I have not done any math on this, nor do I want to, nor do I want you to, unless you want to, but I would like to hear some opinions (or anything else relevant) on whether or not those advantages I listed above can overcome or at least compare with what combat swords has to offer.


edit: spec link
#1612SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Aldriana
Well, in terms of raid DPS, it's definitely going to be lower than TSH and Combat Swords. I mean, relative to an 11/28/22 TSH build (which is comparable to Combat Swords, depending on itemization), you lose:

Sword Spec
WEx
Precision
DW Spec
Imp SnD
Blade Flurry

and gain, basically, SF, Find Weakness, Quick Recovery, and some Poison Talents

Now, the first thing to notice here is that the lack of Imp SnD reduces your SnD uptime by 45%, which basically eats the advantage you got from speccing SF outright. Find Weakness is nice, but a 10% increase to 30% of your damage is significantly less than DW spec, which is a 15% increase to 60% of your damage. And Quick Recovery and Poison talents are nice, but compared to Precision, WEx, and Blade Flurry?

I mean, it's certainly interesting... but it's also clearly vastly inferior.

A slightly more plausible option would be something like 40/21/0 swords, but even that is going to be pretty clearly inferior to the canonical 20/41/0.
#1613SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Ozzmar
Hmm, I do like the spec conceptually, but I'm not sure that it's worth the tradeoff in damage.

At the moment I'm running a 41/20 Mutilate spec, and I've geared and gemmed accordingly (hit/agi in red/yellow, agi/stam in blue). My unbuffed crit is over 26%, and I have almost 13% hit from my gear. So I don't think I'm in TOO bad of shape if I were to go 30/0/31 right now.

I changed my weapons from Season 1 daggers to swords, and the spreadsheet showed about a -6.4% dps change from standard Mutilate/Combat. Keep in mind that 41/20 (at the moment) is currently unable to keep up with Combat swords, so you're looking at a pretty big kick in the pants to your damage.

At low level raiding, I think this spec would work for you as the utility would prove more useful for less demanding encounters. But when you're getting into T5+ content, the demand from your dps classes gets higher and higher, I think you'd start to notice how poorly you're performing.

Of course, a rogue with more 25-man experience can comment on that better than myself.
#1614SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3charminultra
Originally Posted by Vulajin View Post
Your concerns are noted, but essentially what you are trying to do is improve the standing of an obviously suboptimal spec. Even with all of the min-maxing indicated by your post, your build will come up short of combat by far more than other Hemo specs. Answer me this: given that with a particular set of gear and weapons, it is entirely possible to spec either Shadowstep or combat swords, why would you take the lesser DPS spec intentionally? Additionally, if you were hellbent on providing the Hemo debuff, you could, again with the same set of gear and weapons, spec either 11/28/22 (assuming you have swords; 11/21/29 otherwise) or Shadowstep. Given that fact, again, why would you take the lesser DPS spec intentionally?

There is no reason to spec Shadowstep for raiding, ever. However, your advice is certainly sound advice for those who would rather not listen to reason.

Future versions of the first post (to be updated within the next week, most likely) will eliminate any ambiguity by removing the example Shadowstep specs and adding a clearer contraindication for Shadowstep specs in the "spec choice" section.
To me, the lesser DPS spec is a much more fun spec to play inside and outside of raids. I like the spec a lot and it really gets a bad rap when it really isn't as bad as it seems. Again, I'm going to post some WWS reports directly comparing Shadowstep vs. Combat Swords to prove a point (to myself and other). The only thing I'm wondering is on which boss would be a good boss to test against. Currently, my guild is doing Kara/Gruul/Mag and working on T5 content. Recommendations?
#1615SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Aldriana
No one is saying you shouldn't play whatever spec you enjoy. If you think Shadowstep is fun? Great, play it. You think 0/0/61 is fun? Great. You think 0/0/0 is fun? That's fine too.

However, the purpose of this thread is one of optimization, and thus for purposes of this thread, none of those specs are particularly relevant. The answer to "how do I optimize my character" for anyone specced in one of the above ways is "respec to something sane".

So, if you want to play something unusual because you think it's more fun - don't let us stop you. But clearly suboptimal specs are really not the topic of this thread - the fact that they are mentioned at all is more generous than I would have been, and I think it's certainly safe to say that optimizing them is well outside the scope of reasonable discussion for this thread.
#1616SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Ozzmar
Originally Posted by charminultra View Post
To me, the lesser DPS spec is a much more fun spec to play inside and outside of raids. I like the spec a lot and it really gets a bad rap when it really isn't as bad as it seems. Again, I'm going to post some WWS reports directly comparing Shadowstep vs. Combat Swords to prove a point (to myself and other). The only thing I'm wondering is on which boss would be a good boss to test against. Currently, my guild is doing Kara/Gruul/Mag and working on T5 content. Recommendations?
I think Gruul would be a good ruler for this comparison.

It has enough tank and spank for Combat builds to easily smoke other DPS classes, and the Ground Pound -> Shatter element will allow Shadowstep to actually be of tangible use instead of just "cool".

But if you want an accurate comparison, gear accordingly and make it fair. Don't run your Combat test with 150 hit rating, 1800 AP and conclude that Shadowstep is better. Likewise, don't potion and buff the snot out of yourself for one test and not the other. Just be sure that you're actually testing, not just trying to justify something to yourself because everyone else is telling you what you don't want to hear (it sucks).
#1617SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
grog42
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
Now, the first thing to notice here is that the lack of Imp SnD reduces your SnD uptime by 45%, which basically eats the advantage you got from speccing SF outright.
I did some math to compare the relative energy cost of SnD at different combo point levels taking into considering the energy costs of SS and Hemo, and the bonuses from Seal Fate and Imp. SnD. With ruthlessness accounted for and assuming a rough 40% critical chance a combat rogue spends less energy than a Hemo/SF on SnD when finishing with 2 or 3 points but more energy when finishing with 4 or 5. I calculated the energy spent per second of slice for each. At 2 points, a Hemo/SF rogue will spend roughly 7 energy per second of SnD buff while a Combat/SS rogue will spend roughly 5.5 energy per second of SnD. At 3 combat is slightly cheaper at 5.5 e/s to Hemo's 6 e/s. At 4 the Hemo/SF rogue spends 5 while the Combat rogue spends slightly over 6. At 5 the Hemo/SF rogue spends slightly under 5 while the Combat rogue spends almost 7.

What this means to me is that not only does SF overcome Imp. SnD in terms of effectiveness there but for the 21 seconds that SnD is up Seal Fate is workin a lot harder than Imp. SnD allowing you fast and large finishers.

Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
Find Weakness is nice, but a 10% increase to 30% of your damage is significantly less than DW spec, which is a 15% increase to 60% of your damage.
I'd be interested to see the pie chart on an untalented rogue. IMO most of the data used by rogues is largely skewed because most data seems to come from combat swords. Does your white damage account for 60% of your total _because_ you are specced combat or as mutilate/opportunity is that a much lower figure?

Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
And Quick Recovery and Poison talents are nice, but compared to Precision, WEx, and Blade Flurry?
What's nice about Quick Recovery and the Poisons is that they synergize with the build - just as Precision and WEx do with combat. A build focused on finishers with quick recovery IMO doesn't require the -parry,dodge,block that WEx grants and gains much less from hit as would a combat rogue. The absence of Blade Flurry however, hurts.

Thats enough for now... thoughts, reactions?

Last edited by grog42 : 02/26/08 at 3:36 PM.
#1618SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Mode
The only thing I'm wondering is on which boss would be a good boss to test against. Currently, my guild is doing Kara/Gruul/Mag and working on T5 content. Recommendations?
Gruul is the gold standard for DPS. I would also be interested in a Kara parse, particularly of Curator, Aran, and Prince.
#1619SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Hanos
I ran a bunch of raids with myself as Combat and another slightly better geared rogue as Shadowstep a while back and posted the results here. On a non-gimmick fight the DPS difference is substantial (more so then even the spreadsheets indicate), something close to 10% if memory serves correctly (around 200 DPS on T6 Bosses).

As others have said, the people here are concerned with getting 0.1% more DPS, how to min-max everything, chain chugging pots, dropping hundreds of gold to regem based on new gear etc. Shadowstep is a great Arena and PvP Spec, I personally have started using it for my weekend respecs, but it isn't a viable raid spec.

Gruul isn't a good choice, neither is Mag, or really anything in Kara other then possibly Attumen. Morogrim sans graves, Void Reaver (not going out for Pounding), Teron, Council, and Gurtogg are some of the best DPS parse bosses.

However, the real issue is if you are still in Kara/Gruul level content, 5-10% DPS simply doesn't matter, the content is tuned so that people can do 50% of their potential DPS and still win, so spec how you want and have fun, just don't try to convince people testing Sunwell that Shadowstep is viable based on your experience with content we have already farmed out on 2-3 sets of alts.
#1620SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3charminultra
Originally Posted by Ozzmar View Post
I think Gruul would be a good ruler for this comparison.

It has enough tank and spank for Combat builds to easily smoke other DPS classes, and the Ground Pound -> Shatter element will allow Shadowstep to actually be of tangible use instead of just "cool".

But if you want an accurate comparison, gear accordingly and make it fair. Don't run your Combat test with 150 hit rating, 1800 AP and conclude that Shadowstep is better. Likewise, don't potion and buff the snot out of yourself for one test and not the other. Just be sure that you're actually testing, not just trying to justify something to yourself because everyone else is telling you what you don't want to hear (it sucks).
I still haven't decided on which set of gear to use for testing purposes, the 4/5 T4 set I have with the 299 hit and 1982 AP (as Shadowstep; can't recall the AP as combat but I -think- it's around 1650-1700 unbuffed). The other set is the gear acquired through heroic badge gear, replacing T4 gloves and pants. The AP bonus is around +44.x-45 or so from 4/5 T4 to 2/5 T4 and the heroic badge gloves and pants. But my hit rating goes from 299 to 256 (-43 hit, ~-3%). I've yet to see how that really effects my DPS in hard numbers, but I know it will and am curious to see the results.

Of course I'll be using standard DPS buffs on myself in both situations - imp GotW, Unstable Flask of the Bandit, Spicy Hot Talbuk, Battle Shout, WF, and LotP.
#1621SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Hanos
Originally Posted by Mode View Post
Gruul is the gold standard for DPS. I would also be interested in a Kara parse, particularly of Curator, Aran, and Prince.
No, Patchwerk and Teron are the gold standard. Gruul has variable amounts of time out of combat where Rupture/Poison might still be ticking, you can play it safe and stay out, you might be punted, and you may have to hold back due to aggro. Shadowstep would actually have a lot of advantages on that fight, due to the fact that you have to spend a significant amount of time running away/running back. Curator is dependent on your strategy/cooldown usage, Aran again strategy, and Prince is dependent on positioning, enfeebles and infernals, aka none of them are good fights. Of the fights in Kara, Attunmen is the best DPS mark due to the fact that you can simply stay on him 100% of the time, with Maiden probably being #2.
#1622SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Hanos
Originally Posted by grog42 View Post
I did some math to compare the relative energy cost of SnD at different combo point levels taking into considering the energy costs of SS and Hemo, and the bonuses from Seal Fate and Imp. SnD. With ruthlessness accounted for and assuming a rough 40% critical chance a combat rogue spends less energy than a Hemo/SF on SnD when finishing with 2 or 3 points but more energy when finishing with 4 or 5. I calculated the energy spent per second of slice for each. At 2 points, a Hemo/SF rogue will spend roughly 7 energy per second of SnD buff while a Combat/SS rogue will spend roughly 5.5 energy per second of SnD. At 3 combat is slightly cheaper at 5.5 e/s to Hemo's 5 e/s. At 4 the Hemo/SF rogue spends 5 while the Combat rogue spends slightly over 6. At 5 the Hemo/SF rogue spends slightly under 5 while the Combat rogue spends almost 7.
I would like to see how you calculated this, because I spend 0 energy on S&D and 0 on Rupture. 100% of my energy is used for Sinister Strike due to the fact that I normally use a 5s/5r cycle that provides 25 energy per finisher. Now even if you say that I used 25, that would mean I am only getting 3-4 seconds of S&D per 5 point finisher.... this simply makes no sense whatsoever.
#1623SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3grog42
Originally Posted by Hanos View Post
I would like to see how you calculated this, because I spend 0 energy on S&D and 0 on Rupture. 100% of my energy is used for Sinister Strike due to the fact that I normally use a 5s/5r cycle that provides 25 energy per finisher. Now even if you say that I used 25, that would mean I am only getting 3-4 seconds of S&D per 5 point finisher.... this simply makes no sense whatsoever.
You're probably overthinking it. I'm talking about in terms of _time_ required to put and keep SnD up. With 0 combo points on a target it takes five sinister strikes to be able to 5 point SnD. Therefore you must have spent 200 energy gaining your points and 25 releasing them for a total of 225 energy, meaning that you must have spent 225/20(e tick) = 11.25 ticks of energy rounded up to 12 ticks = 24 seconds that you need in order to build and pop a 30 second SnD. Since you have used 225 energy worth of combo points and 24 seconds to put up SnD for 30 seconds - you have spent 7.5 energy per second of SnD.

As a Hemo/SF rogue, it will take an average of near 3 hemos (considering 40% crit) to build 5 points. This rogue has spent 130 energy, = 7 ticks of energy = 14 seconds for 21 seconds of SnD, = 6.2 e/s.
#1624SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3charminultra
Originally Posted by Hanos View Post
No, Patchwerk and Teron are the gold standard.
Because everyone who wants to test specs is in T6 content.
#1625SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Aldriana
Originally Posted by grog42 View Post
I did some math to compare the relative energy cost of SnD at different combo point levels taking into considering the energy costs of SS and Hemo, and the bonuses from Seal Fate and Imp. SnD. With ruthlessness accounted for and assuming a rough 40% critical chance a combat rogue spends less energy than a Hemo/SF on SnD when finishing with 2 or 3 points but more energy when finishing with 4 or 5. I calculated the energy spent per second of slice for each. At 2 points, a Hemo/SF rogue will spend roughly 7 energy per second of SnD buff while a Combat/SS rogue will spend roughly 5.5 energy per second of SnD. At 3 combat is slightly cheaper at 5.5 e/s to Hemo's 5 e/s. At 4 the Hemo/SF rogue spends 5 while the Combat rogue spends slightly over 6. At 5 the Hemo/SF rogue spends slightly under 5 while the Combat rogue spends almost 7.

What this means to me is that not only does SF overcome Imp. SnD in terms of effectiveness there but for the 21 seconds that SnD is up Seal Fate is workin a lot harder than Imp. SnD allowing you fast and large finishers.
I'm not really sure where this energy per second number is coming from. Here's the way I was analyzing it:

Neglecting Combat Potency for the moment, neither SF nor Imp SnD particularly increases your energy regen. The principal difference both of these talents make is one of cycle selection. The longer the SnD, the more finishers you can generate in between. Similarly, the faster you gain combo points, the more finishers you can do in the same amount of time.

Imp SnD gives a 45% increase to SnD uptime, hence a 45% increase to the number of Combo Points you generate between finishers. Seal Fate increases your number of combo points by your crit rate; assuming your crit rate is ~45% (which is quite generous for most rogues), you thus end up with the same number of combo points per cycle, hence the same cycle.

Now, admittedly, the SF cycle will take less time and thus get higher Rupture uptime, so there is a bit of a damage advantage. Lets make a quick estimate as to the size of this advantage. Untalented 5-pt SnD lasts 21 seconds. This is sufficient time for 6 Hemos (a bit less, actually, as dodged attacks will cost energy). 6 Hemos with SF and a 45% crit rate is 8.7 combo points per SnD; additionally, you gain .6 combo points per finisher. So all in all it looks like your average case cycle is something like 4+s/4+r.

Thus, every 20 seconds or so, you get something like 15 seconds of Rupture uptime, or 75% Rupture uptime.

Meanwhile, the non-SF rogue has 304.5 seconds during an SnD, enough time for about 8.5 hemos, plus the finisher combo points means the ideal cycle is something like 5s4.7r. Thus, you get about 16 second uptime out of every 30, or only 53% rupture uptime.

Thus, SF buys you, in effect, 22% extra rupture uptime. So that's a 22% increase to... oh, 7% of your damage, or a 1.5% increase in overall DPS. So it's an advantage. But that's matched easily by, oh, say, WEx, which is roughly a 2.5% increase to 60% of your damage, or also 1.5% of total DPS.

I'd be interested to see the pie chart on an untalented rogue. IMO most of the data used by rogues is largely skewed because most data seems to come from combat swords. Does your white damage account for 60% of your total _because_ you are specced combat or as mutilate/opportunity is that a much lower figure?
It might be lower (though with combat potency I'm not convinced), but I doubt it'll be *that* much lower. But lets find out, shall we? As a baseline, lets look at the damage breakdown the Rogue Gear Sheet comes up with for my gear and Combat Swords spec:

White: 61.6%
SS: 25.3%
Rupture: 6.5%
Poison: 4.7%

That looks about right to me, so lets assume for the moment that this is at least a plausible estimate of damage breakdown. Well, if I then remove all my talents and look at untalented DPS with the same gear and buffs, the breakdown is:

White: 70.7%
SS: 22.6%
Poison: 6.7%

Unfortunately, the Gear Sheet doesn't have any cycles shorter than 5s, which an untalented rogue can't even sustain. So in reality, one should be using about a 3s cycle to keep 100% SnD uptime, which would mean more white damage and less yellow damage. But, this'll do for starters.

So, it looks to me that an untalented rogue actually does *more* white damage and *less* yellow damage than a combat rogue. Of course, this isn't really that useful a comparison since an untalented rogue is so very very different from a specced rogue of any sort. But I think the point that the 60/30/10 white/yellow/other damage breakdown is at least in the right ballpark holds.

And, frankly, even if the breakdown was 40/50/10 (which it isn't, but lets go with it): 15% of 40% is still more than 10% of 50%. And that assumes you always land all combo point generators in Find Weakness. Which you don't, necessarily.

What's nice about Quick Recovery and the Poisons is that they synergize with the build - just as Precision and WEx do with combat. A build focused on finishers with quick recovery IMO doesn't require the -parry,dodge,block that WEx grants and gains much less from hit as would a combat rogue. The absence of Blade Flurry however, hurts.
I'm not saying the poison talents don't help; they do. The problem is that poison is just such a phenomenally small portion of your DPS compared to white. Even if the poison talents increase your poison damage by a factor of 2 (and they don't) - that's still only 5% of your damage. Meanwhile, Sword Spec and Precision increase your while damage - 60% of your total - by almost 10%, which is 6% of your damage. Fundamentally: white damage is *so* much more damage than poison damage that even relatively small boosts to white damage dwarf the contribution of any poison talent.
#1626SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Mode
Originally Posted by Hanos View Post
No, Patchwerk and Teron are the gold standard. Gruul has variable amounts of time out of combat where Rupture/Poison might still be ticking, you can play it safe and stay out, you might be punted, and you may have to hold back due to aggro. Shadowstep would actually have a lot of advantages on that fight, due to the fact that you have to spend a significant amount of time running away/running back. Curator is dependent on your strategy/cooldown usage, Aran again strategy, and Prince is dependent on positioning, enfeebles and infernals, aka none of them are good fights. Of the fights in Kara, Attunmen is the best DPS mark due to the fact that you can simply stay on him 100% of the time, with Maiden probably being #2.
I went with Gruul because that is about where he is on progression. Teron would be better, but he's not there yet.

I picked the Kara fights for different reasons. I picked Curator because I was curious how a shadowstep rogue would do on a fight with lots of quickly-killed adds and bouncing between targets. Intuitively, I would think they'd perform well because of less time wasted chasing down flares. Aran is a fight rogues usually do very well on. Prince is one they often don't do well on because of nova/enfeebles but that a shadowstep rogue could possibly do better on than a straight combat rogue thanks to cheat death and being able to bamf back to him after a nova.

I didn't think about Maiden because she's such a short fight, but you're right about Attumen probably being best. I don't even think about him as a boss anymore, so he completely slipped my mind.
#1627SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3koaschten
The best way of synthetical benchmark you can do is stealthing through Diremaul North and beat on a ogre spirit in the kings room. Re-Spec, Rinse and Repeat.
#1628SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Hanos
Originally Posted by grog42 View Post
You're probably overthinking it. I'm talking about in terms of _time_ required to put and keep SnD up. With 0 combo points on a target it takes five sinister strikes to be able to 5 point SnD. Therefore you must have spent 200 energy gaining your points and 25 releasing them for a total of 225 energy, meaning that you must have spent 225/20(e tick) = 11.25 ticks of energy rounded up to 12 ticks = 24 seconds that you need in order to build and pop a 30 second SnD. Since you have used 225 energy worth of combo points and 24 seconds to put up SnD for 30 seconds - you have spent 7.5 energy per second of SnD.

As a Hemo/SF rogue, it will take an average of near 3 hemos (considering 40% crit) to build 5 points. This rogue has spent 130 energy, = 7 ticks of energy = 14 seconds for 21 seconds of SnD, = 6.2 e/s.
My point is that napkin math doesn't work for Rogue Theorycraft. You can't value finishers based off of time or anything like that, the only concern is total DPS of the full rotation, and the calculation you are doing doesn't have any relevance to anything. That is like saying you can only Sinister Strike every 4 seconds, it isn't true either, and again isn't relevant when comparing specs.

Your math there is flawed first of all because 100% of the time that cycle would cost 200 energy, not 225. Also, analyzing finishers independent of the build and the rest of the cycle doesn't work. The relative cost of S&D in my application is 0, because the real and opportunity cost are 0. If I have 5 Combo Points, I can either SS again for 40, or do S&D which costs 25 energy, but generates 25 energy, thus the cost is 0.

Based off your math the most efficient cycle would be 1s/1r because you get the most S&D uptime per combo point/energy. You also don't take into account the lost DPS from having to S&D 50% more often that could instead be used to use Rupture. Basically you are taking far too simplistic of a view, and of course when you disregard or ignore everything that would make your hypothesis wrong, then it is easy to conclude that you are correct, in this case you are wrong.

Originally Posted by charminultra View Post
Because everyone who wants to test specs is in T6 content.
Gruul is a horrible fight to test specs on, it is far from the "gold standard", it might be "reasonable acceptable within a certain set of circumstances", not all of the fights I listed are T6, but then again, that is all I really raid any more on my rogue (as I am sure is the case with Aldriana and others).
#1629SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3grog42
Originally Posted by Hanos View Post
My point is that napkin math doesn't work for Rogue Theorycraft
.
I found the mascot.

If you'll look up a few you'll notice that Aldriana proved my point in numbers more your style. Point being that SF/Hemo offers higher cps during any cycle for more finishing damage. I mean, I'd be pretty pissed if that weren't the case with Seal Fate. Point being that Seal Fate does more for your rota than just compensate for not having Imp. SnD.

Forgive me if I believe that speccing to improve your AUTO attacks is a lame way to play, I'm just trying to offer some fresh ideas to the people that know the math.
#1630SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Ticia
Originally Posted by grog42 View Post
Forgive me if I believe that speccing to improve your AUTO attacks is a lame way to play, I'm just trying to offer some fresh ideas to the people that know the math.

The point I think people have been trying to make for 2 pages or so now, is that if you want to spec something other than the accepted top DPS spec because you think it is more fun (or less "lame") then fine, do it. We're not trying to stop you.

However, don't come into a thread designed around theorycrafting maximum possible rogue dps and try to say that your spec is somehow superior (or equal) in damage to the spec that has been mathematically proven to be the best. "Lameness" doesn't come into our calculations in this thread (or forum for that matter), only maximum damage output.

Again, if you have more fun playing it, and that's all you care about, then by all means. Hell, I stayed Shadowstep for Hyjal last week and while my damage was atrocious, it was the most fun I've had raiding that godawful instance in probably 6 months. But I wouldn't for a second think of doing that on progression content where maximizing dps is a major concern.
#1631SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3grog42
Originally Posted by Ticia View Post
However, don't come into a thread designed around theorycrafting maximum possible rogue dps and try to say that your spec is somehow superior (or equal) in damage to the spec that has been mathematically proven to be the best. "Lameness" doesn't come into our calculations in this thread (or forum for that matter), only maximum damage output.
Is not a thread designed around theorycrafting the place to do just that? There is no theory crafting in closing your mind around only one spec. Besides, the game changes. I outlined the aspects in which my spec was both superior and inferior to the accepted standard, and asked opinions on those. I asked how this would relate to my overall increase in DPS. I should have expected nothing less than a good flame on a board named such as this.
#1632SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Shaker
I guess it's been a little while since the last time I quoted it, however, here we go:

It should be noted that if the build you're using isn't linked in the first post, it is because it is not that good for PVE dps. I admit that it is possible that we've overlooked a build with synergy that we haven't accounted for, but if that's the case, please provide a WWS of you using such a build, doing great sustained DPS (for this purpose, I'd say > 1k DPS as fully T4 geared, > 1500 DPS fully T5 geared, or > 2000 DPS fully T6 geared), and if we find the results reproducable in the context of the current endgame (i.e. not a 1 trick pony for just one fight), I promise you we'll include it and study it further.
#1633SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Dorvan
Originally Posted by grog42 View Post
Is not a thread designed around theorycrafting the place to do just that? There is no theory crafting in closing your mind around only one spec. Besides, the game changes. I outlined the aspects in which my spec was both superior and inferior to the accepted standard, and asked opinions on those. I asked how this would relate to my overall increase in DPS. I should have expected nothing less than a good flame on a board named such as this.
You walked into a theorycrafting and said you didn't want to talk math:

I have not done any math on this, nor do I want to, nor do I want you to, unless you want to, but I would like to hear some opinions (or anything else relevant) on whether or not those advantages I listed above can overcome or at least compare with what combat swords has to offer.
The thing is, the mathematical models give something meaningful to talk about rather than just "I like my method better" or "I get this feeling that my DPS isn't to far behind". If you want to participate in a theorycrafting thread, be prepared to bring evidence to back your claims, especially if they go against conventional wisdom. If you're not willing to gather, present, and defend evidence to support your position, a theorycrafting forum isn't the right place to be. As others have said, even a WWS to support your claims would be a decent place to start, but you've walked into this thread proposing a build that's been pretty well established as significantly inferior DPS-wise, provided no support to your claim, and then you're surprised when people dismiss you?
#1634SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Aldriana
Originally Posted by grog42 View Post
Is not a thread designed around theorycrafting the place to do just that? There is no theory crafting in closing your mind around only one spec. Besides, the game changes. I outlined the aspects in which my spec was both superior and inferior to the accepted standard, and asked opinions on those. I asked how this would relate to my overall increase in DPS. I should have expected nothing less than a good flame on a board named such as this.
No one was particularly flaming you; you're just wrong, is all. You proposed an alternate spec and asked for opinions. I expressed the opinion that it wasn't particularly good. You disagreed and gave reasons. Myself and others than gave more detailed explanations, showing the errors in your estimates, and more fully demonstrating it's inferiority. There's no personal attack here - or at least, that's not my intent. It's just the build you proposed, regardless of it's lameness or lack thereof - is just plain not as good as the other available options. The reason why people spec to boost their white damage is because it works - it's really that simple. White damage is the majority of the damage you do as a rogue, so boosting it just plain works better than any other approach - hence, lame or not, it yields higher DPS. You're welcome to spec however you want, of course, but that's wholly separate from the issue of how much DPS the spec does. And the DPS the spec does, according to all the theorycraft and napkinmath we've done, is going to be lower than the damage that Combat Swords does. So until you have some evidence otherwise (see Shaker's post for information on what would suffice in that respect), I don't really see much point in further discussion. We theorycrafted, we discussed, we concluded it sucked, and it's time to move on.
#1635SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3grog42
Well my napkin math has sensitive feelings. If it does manage to produce good numbers when I'm around T4 I'll post some evidence, as it's a fun build.
#1636SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Ricard
This was mentioned back when the expertise patch first came out, but I haven't seen it addressed again, so here goes:

When I equip a mace (and am human) in the main hand and a sword in the off hand, I have 20 expertise with the talent WEx. This would seem to indicate, at least on the character sheet, that I get the bonus both from the mace racial and the sword racial. Is this actually the case, or is it just a character sheet bug?
#1637SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Oscarvil
It is believed to just be a character sheet bug but to my knowledge nobody has bothered to verify whether or not it is.

edit: There is no reason to think it would apply to both hands, bonus crit/weapon skill for specific weapon types has only applied to the hand wielding said weapon since release.
#1638SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Latito
Originally Posted by Ricard View Post
This was mentioned back when the expertise patch first came out, but I haven't seen it addressed again, so here goes:

When I equip a mace (and am human) in the main hand and a sword in the off hand, I have 20 expertise with the talent WEx. This would seem to indicate, at least on the character sheet, that I get the bonus both from the mace racial and the sword racial. Is this actually the case, or is it just a character sheet bug?
I believe this is just a character sheet bug. Either way, it doesn't matter. On the 2.4 PTR, you now have a X / X set of stats for Expertise, similar to Weapon Speed. Mainhand and OH Expertise are each displayed seperately. One would have to assume that they are calculating attacks based on that... or at least that Blizzard *intends* to calculate in that fashion.
#1639SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3tjn
I haven't tested it recently, but circumstantially in 2.3.0 I tested it out on Najentus with a Talon/Swiftsteel Bludgeon as a human (With 100 Deaths and 2/2 WeapEx) and did not record a dodge through 3 attempts (/cry). I switched back to my Merciless Quickblade and started seeing dodges again.

I might have just gotten a weird RNG streak, but at least for the moment I believe it stacks, unless someone has some WWS reports they could direct me to?
#1640SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Icos
My guild's rogue chat came up with an interesting question concerning food buffs.


On fights with lots of adds (FLK for example) where most of your time is on mobs <lvl 73 (Boss lvl) would it be more beneficial to use agi food over hit food for combat spec IF your already capped on hit for the adds?
#1641SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Ricard
Very likely. Agility and hit rating come out close to each other as far as their respective DPS increases, and I keep a stack of mudfish on me for trash as well as my stack of talbuk. With FLK, though, I'd just go with the hit rating food, unless you were -really- butting up against the hit cap. That's not usually a good idea, anyway, as you don't want to have to regem to make room for an imp faerie fire if one comes your way. Someone can feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, though.

edit: Looking at your gear, you have some room before the hit cap. I'd say that you'll probably end up getting more milage out of hit rating food on that right than agility food. On trash, though, agility food might not be uncalled for.
#1642SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Daeruth
Hi there,

yesterday I got myself the ashtongue reputation trinket. After clearing MH I came to think mabye another trinket would be better for the trash waves.

On a boss its relativly easy to maintain the buff by running your cycles, but with the trash i've seen it rarely proccing.

How are your experiences with this trinket? Any suggestions how to use it the most efficient way?

thanks, Daeruth

ps: sry for the bad english
#1643SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Primalr
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
Rough numbers on run speed:

With my current gear, according to the rogue gear sheet, I do 1486.91 DPS. The loss of 6 agility reduces this to 1482.92.

Lets assume that without Cat's Swiftness, I spend X seconds out of every minute moving; thus, my damage per minute is (60-X)*1486.91. With Cat's Swiftness, it would instead be (60-x/1.08)*1482.92. Equating these and solving for X, we find that the break-even point is at X = 2.1. So, by this estimate, if you're spending more than 2.1 seconds out of every minute moving, Cat's Swiftness is better.
.... <snipped>....

In brief: 12 agi and Cat's Swiftness are competitive enchants, with each being superior on some fights. Surefooted is generally inferior from a PvE perspective.
The same should apply to Shadowstep, giving Shadowstep higher dps contribution than spreadsheet calculates on any fight where movement is needed. Also, on fights like archimonde, every melee usually spend x amount of time unable to reach the boss due to fire between them and boss. Shadowstep makes it possible to jump over the fire. Also on the same fight, I believe (although I haven't tested it) that shadowstepping to the boss just as airburst hits would make you able to skip the whole air-burst giving more on-target time.
#1644SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Neshalin
Originally Posted by Primalr View Post
Also on the same fight, I believe (although I haven't tested it) that shadowstepping to the boss just as airburst hits would make you able to skip the whole air-burst giving more on-target time.
This works, yes. It makes the fight a lot more fun. But if melee doesn't get airbursted a lot, your damage will suck compared to the rest, and even if they do you won't get phenominally far ahead due to subtlety's low personal dps.
#1645SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Primalr
Originally Posted by Daeruth View Post
Hi there,

yesterday I got myself the ashtongue reputation trinket. After clearing MH I came to think mabye another trinket would be better for the trash waves.

On a boss its relativly easy to maintain the buff by running your cycles, but with the trash i've seen it rarely proccing.

How are your experiences with this trinket? Any suggestions how to use it the most efficient way?

thanks, Daeruth

ps: sry for the bad english
Bosses is where the dps is important. Using different trinkets for trash and boss is only likely to make you forget switching every now and then, resulting in less dps where it's important.
#1646SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Hildegard
Shadowstep is a good idea for rogues that tend to react a bit slower. A combat sword rogue not keeping up with the seven golden rules surely is less effective than a shadowstep rogue caring about those.

The DPS difference is about 15% as stated on page one. So for some rogues the increased survivability (stay out of the f***ing fire) and mobility may actually increase their DPS. On very movement intense fights (Al'ar as example) Shadow Step may result in more damage. The DPS is way lower, but the DPS uptime is increased a lot.
#1647SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3mmaker
Came over this thread when browsing shadowpanther

WoW Forums -> How does Shadowpanther account for gems?

and this guy, willsucks, had some interesting theories. See post 29. While i, ofcourse, dont agree with hes hate for shadowpanther this idea seems pretty cool. Anyone tried it? It basically mean you save energy for 2-3 SS to use when the mob have debuffs, making these SS have more AP and higher crit chance.

quoting:

"Pool energy.
Don't go over 85 post tick if.

65-85, hit SS right as/before you tick up to 85, might want to use a swing timer to monitor your OH strikes if you get as into it as I am - LD50 Abar is a good one.

60-80, you want to hit it 1 sec before you tick to 100 OR combat potency procs, if you're squeemish about getting this close, just do it as you tick to 80.

Monitor your mongoose & perceived weakness (if applicable) buffs.
You want to spam your energy down on a triple, or at least double proc. If you get a single proc, keep saving energy. Wait until that proc gets down to about 4-5 seconds, then spam your energy down to take advantage of it before it runs off.

This allows you to invest more energy in proc events.

It's micromanagement and it requires a lot of attention not to tunnel vision and screw up on something else, some might say an inordinate amount of attention - I obviously don't think so as I play this game as a sort of meditation, but it is a DPS increase.

Make sure you're still monitoring CPs, SND & rupture timers so you can still calculate your rotations. Get your CPs in regardless of procs for your rotation, but be wary of low and high energy zones."
#1648SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
iuron
double post

Last edited by iuron : 02/27/08 at 12:03 PM. Reason: double post
#1649SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3iuron
Originally Posted by Mode View Post
Gruul is the gold standard for DPS. I would also be interested in a Kara parse, particularly of Curator, Aran, and Prince.
First, I think it is legitimate to think about easily accessible bosses for DPS-testing at T4/5-level because that's were most players are. And there might be different results at T6 and T5 level as we know from the hemo/trispec debate.

If I really want to compare the raw DPS potential of talent builds, I need a boss where all talent points that directly result in dps of both specs do have an effect. Murder and Vile Poisons being part of standard combat swords builds and rupture being the best finisher, I would want to compare builds on a poisonable and rupturable boss where Murder works. This could be Gruul (with the obvious ground slam problems). It could be Magtheridon, too (unless I have to work the cubes).

My favorite at T4/5-level is Morogrim, because watery graves are only minor downtimes, pointing out clearly where comparison will not be 100% exact (just count them...). The tricky thing with Karazhan is that you just can't rely on all bosses being rupturable or poisonable. If I remember correctly, Attumen does not bleed, so he's not perfect. I agree, that Maiden would be ok, but the fight gets really short with epic equipment. Aditionally 10-mens generally have a tendency to lack buffs, and some builds scale better than other. Otherwise I'd suggest Zul'Aman's Nalorrak to be a pretty good testing boss.

In regards to the question which buff food to chose: Check it in your spreadsheet. Even with a lot to go until reaching the hit cap, warp burgers can be better. It just depends on your equip, talent build, buffs. For me (±270 +hit) it's better in any situation by a tiny margin... but I'm a dagger rogue and somehow reached a efficiency-cap for hit (i.e. Hit<1AEP).
#1650SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Bloodsiren
Originally Posted by iuron View Post
In regards to the question which buff food to chose: Check it in your spreadsheet. Even with a lot to go until reaching the hit cap, warp burgers can be better. It just depends on your equip, talent build, buffs. For me (±270 +hit) it's better in any situation by a tiny margin... but I'm a dagger rogue and somehow reached a efficiency-cap for hit (i.e. Hit<1AEP).
I'm combat daggers currently also. I carry both +hit and +agi food. I have noticed that the agility food gives my dps a bigger boost on trash and on fights with more running in and out, (like Gruul) and the +hit food works better for the longer sustained "tank and spank" boss fights. Also, normally I end up in a group with a feral druid and get the +crit buff, but when I don't, I find the agility food is a bigger boost for the +crit. My hit unbuffed is around 290 right now and my crit is around 28%. I'm not great with math, but I think it makes sense that the +agi food will give you more crits and AP and on mobile fights, energy regen isn't as big an issue. Whereas the sustained fights require more hits for potency to procc, allowing for more backstabs which are a larger % of a combat daggers dps. I do not know if combat swords finds that different foods boost their fights depending on style as well.
#1651SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Apoq
Aldriana, what's your take on the 2.4 changes to mutilate 41/20 raid spec(15% more crit on mutilate)? I would think it gives new wind to the Ashtongue Trinket, speculating it would yield a higher uptime and thus making it viable over other trinkets. I know your stance on the Rogue DPS spreadsheet but playing with this new mutilate setup the next stat equivalency would scale crit equal to/slightly higher than hit at some point. Of course it could always be wrong(suggested) =D

Assuming max T6/equivalent gear with the Shard/Tracker dagger combo v/s a combat sword build with infamy/savagery swords.

Edit: I mean, if it's so close within 2-3% buffed dps then choosing via playstyle comes to mind. Assuming Blizzard is done with non-poisonable bosses.

Last edited by Apoq : 02/27/08 at 3:16 PM.
#1652SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Asherz
Originally Posted by Hildegard View Post
Shadowstep is a good idea for rogues that tend to react a bit slower. A combat sword rogue not keeping up with the seven golden rules surely is less effective than a shadowstep rogue caring about those.

The DPS difference is about 15% as stated on page one. So for some rogues the increased survivability (stay out of the f***ing fire) and mobility may actually increase their DPS. On very movement intense fights (Al'ar as example) Shadow Step may result in more damage. The DPS is way lower, but the DPS uptime is increased a lot.

The only fight that I can think of that I'd rather be Shadowstep over Combat is for Archimonde. Even then, if you were to get lucky and have few airbursts and don't get trapped on the wrong side of the fire you could be putting up inferior numbers compared to combat.

We had a rogue go shadowstep for Archmonde last week and although the combat rogues did well over 100dps more than he did, his damage was considerably more than any other melee class. The ability to shadowstep down from an airburst or through fire is key and is the only thing that'd keep a Shadowstep spec'd rogue even with, or ahead of, a combat rogue's damage.

As has been stated before in various threads, any rogue that would see a damage 'gain' from a crutch like cheat death has some other problems going on.
#1653SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Crackeyez
Which is best with Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality, Vanir's Left Fist of Savagry, Merciless Gladiator's Slicer , Merciless Gladiator's Quickblade: Using Combat Swords, Combat Fist/Sword, or Combat Fists.

I'm sorry I couldn't figure this out on my own... Messed with the rogue spreadsheets for a few hours and still couldn't come up with an answer.

Last edited by Crackeyez : 02/27/08 at 5:42 PM.
#1654SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3mmartinx
Originally Posted by mmaker View Post
Came over this thread when browsing shadowpanther
quoting:

*snip*

"Pool energy.
Don't go over 85 post tick if.

65-85, hit SS right as/before you tick up to 85, might want to use a swing timer to monitor your OH strikes if you get as into it as I am - LD50 Abar is a good one.

60-80, you want to hit it 1 sec before you tick to 100 OR combat potency procs, if you're squeemish about getting this close, just do it as you tick to 80.

*snip*
This gets pretty dicey with the 4/5 T5 bonus, you're a proc and +30/45 energy from chain combat potency procs away from losing a ton of energy. Before I had the bonus I did this quite a bit on fights like Morogrim. The only time I pool my energy now is before cooldowns, I'll get to 60-80 and wait before I'm about to get an energy tick and use blade flurry into either a SS or rupture.
#1655SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3mmartinx
Originally Posted by Crackeyez View Post
Which is best with Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality, Vanir's Left Fist of Savagry, Merciless Gladiator's Slicer , Merciless Gladiator's Quickblade: Using Combat Swords, Combat Fist/Sword, or Combat Fists.

I'm sorry I couldn't figure this out on my own... Messed with the rogue spreadsheets for hours and still couldn't come up with an answer.
For hours? Sir, I think its time to find an Excel tutorial. Anyways there's discussion going on in this thread starting about 3 pages back at default PPP Roguecraft 101
#1656SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Nannou
I've got a question here. I'm currently raiding with my 20/41/0 sword rogue, using talon of azhara in mh and gladiator s1 in oh. But last time I ran BT the swiftsteel bludgeon dropped and I got it for pvp essentially. But now I'm wondering if I would gain or lose dps by replacing my s1 oh with it - while still keeping the same sword spec?

The rogue DPS spreadsheet won't let me test it, so do any of you have any pointers?
#1657SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3saedo
Y45. Change it to maces.
#1658SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3mmartinx
The point of a fist/sword or mace/sword 16/45 build is to enhance your MH white swings and specials through the use of your off hand. The actual damage done by off-hand swings is marginal, and enhancing that specifically is a waste. spec maces if you get your hands on a Syphon, or stick with swords.
#1659SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Nannou
Yes, I know the points of those builds. But what I'm wondering is if the amount of swordprocs from the oh will make up for the extra dmg/stats on the swiftsteel bludgeon or not. It's got more hit, more ap, more haste etc. But if the amount of procs from sword oh is big enough, then it's obviously the best choice to stay with s1 sword until i get another one.
#1660SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3mmartinx
Yes, absolutely stick with swords
#1661SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Apoq
Originally Posted by Nannou View Post
Yes, I know the points of those builds. But what I'm wondering is if the amount of swordprocs from the oh will make up for the extra dmg/stats on the swiftsteel bludgeon or not. It's got more hit, more ap, more haste etc. But if the amount of procs from sword oh is big enough, then it's obviously the best choice to stay with s1 sword until i get another one.
Stick with S1 OH.

To be honest the swiftsteel bludgeon is only good for hemo specs. Sword/Sword > Mace/Sword - Fist/Sword > Mace/Mace > Sword/Mace for SS combat specs. But that is all dependant on your current itemisation. Pure specs benefitting from 4/5 vile poisons.

It's a good mace with really good stats I'll give it that. In the end it's still a mace and that being said its the worst weapon type as far as pure damage goes.

If it were me, I would wait for a Blade of Savagery or grind S2(S3 if able) sword OH.
#1662SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Crackeyez
Originally Posted by mmartinx View Post
For hours? Sir, I think its time to find an Excel tutorial. Anyways there's discussion going on in this thread starting about 3 pages back at default PPP Roguecraft 101
The questions they address aren't exactly the same as mine and I would prefer a simple "go combat fists" or something.

Edit: Anyone?

Last edited by Crackeyez : 02/27/08 at 5:40 PM.
#1663SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Sparks
Hi, long time reader, first time poster here. While on the PTR, I was goofing off with the stat stacking bug. Got to about 1700% dodge and started tanking things. However, I noticed that something very interesting. Monsters were landing attacks against me every now and then. After some investigation, it seems that players cannot dodge from behind. I've tested this by leaving my back to a level 61 sporebat, and surely enough, the sporebat was hitting me. I haven't gotten the chance to test if mobs can dodge from behind since the servers are down right now, but if they can't, the value of expertise has just dropped a lot. I'll try it against the spirits in DM north later.
#1664SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Shalas
Mobs can dodge from behind, players cannot. You don't really need to abuse bugs to prove this.
#1665SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3neg^
Originally Posted by Sparks View Post
Hi, long time reader, first time poster here. While on the PTR, I was goofing off with the stat stacking bug. Got to about 1700% dodge and started tanking things. However, I noticed that something very interesting. Monsters were landing attacks against me every now and then. After some investigation, it seems that players cannot dodge from behind. I've tested this by leaving my back to a level 61 sporebat, and surely enough, the sporebat was hitting me. I haven't gotten the chance to test if mobs can dodge from behind since the servers are down right now, but if they can't, the value of expertise has just dropped a lot. I'll try it against the spirits in DM north later.
Different mechanic for mobs and players. Check the wws logs of any static fight and you'll see some dodges in the melee miss breakdown. Players can't dodge from behind which is why I hope you see your tanks strafing or walking backwards to move mobs in position if need be.
#1666SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Aldriana
Originally Posted by Apoq View Post
Aldriana, what's your take on the 2.4 changes to mutilate 41/20 raid spec(15% more crit on mutilate)? I would think it gives new wind to the Ashtongue Trinket, speculating it would yield a higher uptime and thus making it viable over other trinkets. I know your stance on the Rogue DPS spreadsheet but playing with this new mutilate setup the next stat equivalency would scale crit equal to/slightly higher than hit at some point. Of course it could always be wrong(suggested) =D

Assuming max T6/equivalent gear with the Shard/Tracker dagger combo v/s a combat sword build with infamy/savagery swords.

Edit: I mean, if it's so close within 2-3% buffed dps then choosing via playstyle comes to mind. Assuming Blizzard is done with non-poisonable bosses.
So, I've given some more detailed thoughts on the exact effect of the Mutilate buff earlier in this and other threads, so I'm not going to revisit all the estimates in detail; to make a long story short, though, I am of the opinion that while the new Mutilate changes help, it is still an inferior spec to straight combat at comparable itemization. The damage gains are not large enough to fully offset it's current deficit even on static fights, and the additional positional requirements and higher CPG energy cost work against you on movement fights. So it's definitely more competitive, and I can see it being worthwhile if, for instance, your dagger options are sufficiently stronger than your sword options (for instance, if you get the Sunwell Daggers but don't have swords better than Infamy/Arena 2). But with equal itemization I feel it is still behind.

Regarding stat weighting: increasing crit rate definitely does help Mutilate more than it does Combat, but I don't think it's enough to let crit catch hit (or even come particularly close). As previously discussed the damage gained by Mutilate from crit rate is something like 80% from the crit damage and 20% from the cycle improvement; thus, while crit rating might be 20% better than for combat, and hit rating a bit lower (you lose the feedback from Combat Potency, but still benefit from Mongoose, Windfury, etc.), I suspect you're still well short of the 50% difference between hit rating and crit rating.

Now, since there is a difference the relative order of some items will change; but I'm not expecting huge differences. If two items are close for combat they're probably still close for Mutilate.

Regarding Ashtongue in particular: yeah, it and DST are pretty clearly the best Mutilate trinkets in 2.3. How the 2.4 trinkets stack up remains to be seen.
#1667SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Dorvan
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
the additional positional requirements and higher CPG energy cost work against you on movement fights.
Actually, I'd think that that positional requirements would be more than offset by the gain of the Fleet-footed talent. Mutilate builds might even be relatively advantaged in such fights (though still probably behind absolutely) due to the increased movement speed.
#1668SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Aldriana
For fights with lots of long runs in them, the advantage of Fleetfooted relative to Cat's Swiftness certainly comes into play. However, there are a reasonable number of fights - mostly among trash, but some bosses as well - where the boss doesn't necessarily move that far, but may turn quite a bit, or otherwise force frequent repositioning to stay behind. For instance, if one is doing elementals on Vashj, the speed boost means you get to each elemental faster, but the additional time to run behind the mob before you can really open will definitely cut into your damage.
#1669SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 AtADeadRun
The questions they address aren't exactly the same as mine and I would prefer a simple "go combat fists" or something.
I plugged this into the spreadsheet for myself a few days ago, and our gear levels are roughly comparable, so here's what I came up with: going sword/fist with Vanir's Right and the MG Quickblade will net you probably 15 DPS over MG/MG swords, and pure fists with Vanir's Right and Left will get you about 25.
#1670SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3mmaker
Originally Posted by mmartinx View Post
This gets pretty dicey with the 4/5 T5 bonus, you're a proc and +30/45 energy from chain combat potency procs away from losing a ton of energy. Before I had the bonus I did this quite a bit on fights like Morogrim. The only time I pool my energy now is before cooldowns, I'll get to 60-80 and wait before I'm about to get an energy tick and use blade flurry into either a SS or rupture.
Cool, never thought about that.. will sure try it.
#1671SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Primalr
Originally Posted by Hildegard View Post
Shadowstep is a good idea for rogues that tend to react a bit slower. A combat sword rogue not keeping up with the seven golden rules surely is less effective than a shadowstep rogue caring about those.

The DPS difference is about 15% as stated on page one. So for some rogues the increased survivability (stay out of the f***ing fire) and mobility may actually increase their DPS. On very movement intense fights (Al'ar as example) Shadow Step may result in more damage. The DPS is way lower, but the DPS uptime is increased a lot.

15% is compared to Combat-Swords, and the comparison is pointless to make. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I thought the general concencus was that 1 hemo specced rogue is positive to have for any raid. Considering the most guilds might raid with 2-3 rogues, that means 50% or 33% of the rogues in a raid should be hemo-specced for maximum raid dps. The comparison to make is, what is the defacto dps-output of a shadowstep rogue versus a hemo-sword rogue for the majority of encounters. Because spreadsheets do not model the reduced running time from shadowstep at all, and neither the great potential of extra dps sometimes available through cheat death. With my gear, on my sheets, I got, from the top of my head, around a -60 dps. That's about 4% lower dps.

Now. Consider lifetime dps. Will maybe cheat death allow me to do more total dps over the course of my wow-career due to not having to die from random things that inevidably happens in a raid environment? Impossible to calculate, but my belief is yes.

As an anectodal thing, we had a really bad Naj'entus go a couple of weeks back. As he enraged I was one of a handful to survive long enough to nuke him down. Dirty Deeds and Cheat death allowed me to deal an extra 10k damage after it kicked in, which isn't too far fetched to believe could be the difference between a kill and 20 minutes wasted on redoing the encounter.
#1672SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Vodrin
Originally Posted by Primalr View Post
As an anectodal thing, we had a really bad Naj'entus go a couple of weeks back. As he enraged I was one of a handful to survive long enough to nuke him down. Dirty Deeds and Cheat death allowed me to deal an extra 10k damage after it kicked in, which isn't too far fetched to believe could be the difference between a kill and 20 minutes wasted on redoing the encounter.
However, if you were not spec'd cheat death, you would have done that 10k damage before he enraged and there would have been no need for the cheat death.
#1673SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3onkel
Originally Posted by Vodrin View Post
However, if you were not spec'd cheat death, you would have done that 10k damage before he enraged and there would have been no need for the cheat death.
Touché
#1674SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Ashere
Originally Posted by Primalr View Post
15% is compared to Combat-Swords, and the comparison is pointless to make. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I thought the general concencus was that 1 hemo specced rogue is positive to have for any raid.
Don't get me wrong, I love hemo, but it matches up untill roughly SSC, maybe Hyjal or early BT, depending a lot on the gear the hemo-rogue has. But on a brighter side, the statistics on the first page of the thread do not include the debuff, that's why people use these spreadsheets to see how it works out with that included.
Again depending on gear, you may add about 5% DPS to hemo builds to account for the debuff, but that's a very rough number, since the debuff is linear while gear is scaling.
In DPS, I've seen numbers from 80 to 140 to account for the debuff. I prefer the 80 myself, to be on the safe side and not overestimate my effect in raids, but I regularly see estimates between 100 and 120.
#1675SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Primalr
Originally Posted by Vodrin View Post
However, if you were not spec'd cheat death, you would have done that 10k damage before he enraged and there would have been no need for the cheat death.
Yes, very true.

Perhaps it's time to change spec for me. Although I love the extra lifelines, extra evasions for RoS etc, I also seem to remember missing bladeflurrying on trash aswell.
#1676SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Hildegard
German translation available

I translated the first article into German for our raid. If anyone is interested in using it or linking it here or even better correcting translation failures, then feel free to contact me. The german version uses buffed.de item links.
#1677SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Hanos
Originally Posted by Primalr View Post
15% is compared to Combat-Swords, and the comparison is pointless to make. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I thought the general concencus was that 1 hemo specced rogue is positive to have for any raid. Considering the most guilds might raid with 2-3 rogues, that means 50% or 33% of the rogues in a raid should be hemo-specced for maximum raid dps. The comparison to make is, what is the defacto dps-output of a shadowstep rogue versus a hemo-sword rogue for the majority of encounters. Because spreadsheets do not model the reduced running time from shadowstep at all, and neither the great potential of extra dps sometimes available through cheat death. With my gear, on my sheets, I got, from the top of my head, around a -60 dps. That's about 4% lower dps.
You are wrong. The total DPS of a Tri-Spec Hemo Rogue including the value of all the Hemo charges, assuming they are all consumed every time, comes out just below the personal DPS of Combat, so once you get to the gear level where the personal DPS of Combat passes the combined DPS of Tri-Spec, there is no reason to have a Hemo rogue in the raid (this has been the case since they changed the values on Hemo, decreasing the multiplier and increasing the value of the charges... basically it scales worse and is better at lower gear levels).

Now. Consider lifetime dps. Will maybe cheat death allow me to do more total dps over the course of my wow-career due to not having to die from random things that inevidably happens in a raid environment? Impossible to calculate, but my belief is yes.
My belief would be know, things that can kill you should be avoidable most of the time, there aren't enough things to justify a 10-15% decrease in DPS on every fight (aka you would have to be dying on the pull on one out of every 8 to 10 fights as Combat for Cheat Death to be worthwhile... if you are dying that much, spec is the least of your concerns.

As an anectodal thing, we had a really bad Naj'entus go a couple of weeks back. As he enraged I was one of a handful to survive long enough to nuke him down. Dirty Deeds and Cheat death allowed me to deal an extra 10k damage after it kicked in, which isn't too far fetched to believe could be the difference between a kill and 20 minutes wasted on redoing the encounter.
As someone else said, if you would have been spec'ed properly odds are you would have killed him sooner, and again, if Naj'entus is enraging, spec is the least of your problems... hell I didn't even know he had an enrage timer (never been an issue from the first kill to now).


Note: I raid Combat and do Arenas as Shadowstep, I think both specs have a lot of value, but when your sole role is to do as much DPS as possible, you really can't justify coming to a raid Shadowstep.
#1678SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Stabmaster
Originally Posted by Hanos View Post
Note: I raid Combat and do Arenas as Shadowstep, I think both specs have a lot of value, but when your sole role is to do as much DPS as possible, you really can't justify coming to a raid Shadowstep.
Quoted for emphasis. There is no place for a deep Sub build in most raids. If you are having any trouble with bosses, speccing Shadowstep is a stupid, selfish decision, considering you are intentionally gimping your DPS for a class whose only purpose is DPS.

But hitting the enrage timer on Najentus? PLEASE. Spec for raids.
#1679SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Apoq
Need some help.....

So on Gorefiend last night it was the first night for me being combat specced for quite some time and I did pretty bad. (Was hemo/deadliness before). Typically I can do 1750 dps as hemo, and figured being combat I would do alot more. I didn't even break 1600. It was a 3 minute 45 second fight (we still bring 7 healers), and I used AR once, BF twice, haste pot, drums, and got 60 energy back from my racial. I also got a lust during haste pot/drums/bf.

Afterward I looked at the WWS and I found that I had an abnormal amount of missed white attacks, 14.3%. Of which inlcluded 3 misses, 36 parries, and 17 dodges. Our other rogue who was standing on top of me (as all the melee were) only had 7 misses, 2 parries, 8 dodges. Both rogues have 10 expertise from talents, thats it. My SS had 8 parries as well and 1 dodge. I also had 20% more glancing blows than the other rogue, who ironically had the same amount of landed white attacks.

Wow Web Stats - Anonymous report, I'm Bassai

Why in the world was my parry amount so high? I know some bosses like Archimonde, Gorefiend they turn around to cast debuffs on the party and getting a parry during that time is unavoidable without tons of expertise. But 44 parries?

Not only that but my crit% was way low. Raid buffed I'm at 29% crit with 356 hit rating. White attacks were 20% crits and my SS's were 14% crits. Is this the result of the abnormal parries?

Seriously though, nobody pulled aggro and I was behind him the entire fight. Bad luck or was I the target of a dirty trick or bug?

Last edited by Apoq : 02/28/08 at 1:40 PM.
#1680SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3koaschten
Originally Posted by Apoq View Post
N
Afterward I looked at the WWS and I found...
Perhaps supply us with the link to said WWS so we could look at it too? Would make analysing your problem heck of a lot easier.
#1681SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Apoq
Originally Posted by koaschten View Post
Perhaps supply us with the link to said WWS so we could look at it too? Would make analysing your problem heck of a lot easier.
It's up, I edited. I did fine as combat on the other fights that night too >.>
#1682SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3royaljester
I would assume bad luck. With 10 expertise, that still seems a lot of parries, no less, you were behind. So one can only surmize that you got some serious bad luck and to try again next week and should see the 1700+ dps you were hoping for.
#1683SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Dalus
Sounds like a bug to me... bosses cannot parry from behind, so if you were standing behind him the entire time there should be no reason for any more then 1-2 parries. (from the boss turning around.)
#1684SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Apoq
Originally Posted by royaljester View Post
I would assume bad luck. With 10 expertise, that still seems a lot of parries, no less, you were behind. So one can only surmize that you got some serious bad luck and to try again next week and should see the 1700+ dps you were hoping for.
Here is one from the week before when I was Hemo/Deadliness spec.

WWS

(Sorry, for some reason this one didn't get posted to the WWS site)
#1685SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3royaljester
Originally Posted by Apoq View Post
Here is one from the week before when I was Hemo/Deadliness spec.

WWS

(Sorry, for some reason this one didn't get posted to the WWS site)
Did you change your name, cause I dont see an "Apoq" on that one where you were supposed to be combat. I see Gankaku and Bassai. Where are you?
#1686SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3saedo
Maybe standing too much inside the hit box so that you're in front and behind him at the same time?
#1687SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Apoq
Originally Posted by royaljester View Post
Did you change your name, cause I dont see an "Apoq" on that one where you were supposed to be combat. I see Gankaku and Bassai. Where are you?
Its an anonymous report so I guess it changed the names, I'd be the one with 1599 on gorefiend.
#1688SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Bloodsiren
Originally Posted by Dalus View Post
Sounds like a bug to me... bosses cannot parry from behind, so if you were standing behind him the entire time there should be no reason for any more then 1-2 parries. (from the boss turning around.)
I keep reading this here and I assume that that you all know way more than I do about this. But I do wonder sometimes because I constantly see the "parry" on the bosses icon when attacking from behind. I am combat daggers so I know I am behind the mob since I'm successfully backstabbing, but I also see parries on my white damage. I've never seen my specials parried from behind but I consistantly see white damage parried. I use Xperl and the mob target icon will flash either the damage amt, "parry", "miss", or "dodge" with all my attacks. I watch it often for CP build-up and I think about what I've read here about how even swords rogues should attack from behind to avoid being parried, but I'm still seeing parries. Perhaps a mob can only parry white damage from behind but not specials?

I have been assuming that it is a mislabel on Xperl's side. But seeing someone else is having a similar issue potentially, has anyone else noticed they are getting parries on white dmg when attacking from behind? I see this on trash or when I'm outside instances also, not just against bosses in raids.
#1689SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Apoq
Originally Posted by Bloodsiren View Post
I keep reading this here and I assume that that you all know way more than I do about this. But I do wonder sometimes because I constantly see the "parry" on the bosses icon when attacking from behind. I am combat daggers so I know I am behind the mob since I'm successfully backstabbing, but I also see parries on my white damage. I've never seen my specials parried from behind but I consistantly see white damage parried. I use Xperl and the mob target icon will flash either the damage amt, "parry", "miss", or "dodge" with all my attacks. I watch it often for CP build-up and I think about what I've read here about how even swords rogues should attack from behind to avoid being parried, but I'm still seeing parries. Perhaps a mob can only parry white damage from behind but not specials?

I have been assuming that it is a mislabel on Xperl's side. But seeing someone else is having a similar issue potentially, has anyone else noticed they are getting parries on white dmg when attacking from behind? I see this on trash or when I'm outside instances also, not just against bosses in raids.
Xperl shows all incoming damage, so you could be seeing a parried attack from your tanks, etc..
#1690SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Latito
Use a mod which shows the damage you deal above the target in some manor. SCT would be the common example (with SCTDamage), although I think even the default UI shows this. Make sure you have it configured to show Miss, Dodge, Parry, etc. It serves as an excellent indicator to your positioning (or on Hyjal trash, an excellent reminder to cloak).

For apoq.. I can't help but say you were attacking from the front man. Your parry rate, over 200+ seconds was almost exactly where it should be for someone attacking from the front, with 10 expertise. You either had the 1 in a million (anyone have actual probability on this?) Teron attempt with 9-10% parry, or you were attacking from the front. The crit thing.. yea, that happens. Its not *common*.. especially to that degree, but it happens. I myself had a 25% crit rate on SS the other week. My character sheet shows ~38% crit (including Feral) going into the fight.. and I was using AToL, had a Ret pally and mongoose. Go figure.
#1691SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3m1rado
I hear rogues all the time saying that mace spec is just as good as fist spec (only on the PvE dps aspect), but that statement makes no sense to me (And goes against the list of specs and dps vs. combat swords), due to this reasoning:
Fist spec is ~5% overall MH damage increase, while Mace spec is a 5% increase to (crit chance)20-35% of your total damage... It seems quite obvious to me that Fist spec is >50% better than Mace.

So, is it just the common rogue being ignorant about more uncommon specs, or is there something about 5% increase to criticals I don't understand?

(I've used both double-mace and Fist/Sword, can't seem to get a good sword MH to drop.)
#1692SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3saedo
Originally Posted by m1rado View Post
So, is it just the common rogue being ignorant about more uncommon specs, or is there something about 5% increase to criticals I don't understand?

The common rogue is ignorant to theorycrafting and just go by gut feeling and a fascination of seeing big fatty crit numbers. lol
#1693SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Ghoststryk
Would you guys mind looking at my dps? I dont know why exactly but i feel like my Sinister Strikes arent hitting nearly as hard as they should be for my gear level. You can check out my armory or whatever if you like. My chars name is Ghoststryk. Here is a WWS i ran last night on our Leotheras the blind kill. I died towards the end of the fight.

WWS Loading...

I would appreciate any tips you can pass along. I freqent these forums trying to absorb all i can about rogue dps.

Thanks,
Ghoststryk
#1694SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3daia
Originally Posted by saedo View Post
Maybe standing too much inside the hit box so that you're in front and behind him at the same time?
This is exactly it. Make sure you are standing at max range from Gorefiend. I've caught myself getting parried from being too close before.
#1695SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Apoq
Originally Posted by m1rado View Post
I hear rogues all the time saying that mace spec is just as good as fist spec (only on the PvE dps aspect), but that statement makes no sense to me (And goes against the list of specs and dps vs. combat swords), due to this reasoning:
Fist spec is ~5% overall MH damage increase, while Mace spec is a 5% increase to (crit chance)20-35% of your total damage... It seems quite obvious to me that Fist spec is >50% better than Mace.

So, is it just the common rogue being ignorant about more uncommon specs, or is there something about 5% increase to criticals I don't understand?

(I've used both double-mace and Fist/Sword, can't seem to get a good sword MH to drop.)
Fist spec is diminished by overall missed attacks, etc. It's not actually going to be a 5% crit gain in a raid v/s a 73 mob. Depends on your hit rate and expertise.

Mace spec however is not mitigated but rather enhanced by set bonuses, % buffs, procs, RED, etc..

The real reason Mace spec is good right now is itemisation. Rod of the Sun King is one of the best MH weapons(aside from glaive), it just happens to be a mace. =/ The limits of every spec is solely dependant on itemisation. I've found that I have to go with the flow and maximize my spec with what drops.

Try out Mace MH/Sword OH with 16/45/0 combat mace/sword spec.
#1696SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Dontmindme
Apoq---

If I were to guess, you were too far into the hit box. This can happen a couple of ways...

1) You actually were too close.
2) Due to server lag issues, your screen showed you one place but the server thought you were closer. This is similar to situations where you think you are in range to hit someone but it says you are too far away, but in a less extreme sense as you can still hit them, just you are also suffering from parries because you are dislocated forward.

You might want to pay a little attention to your attacks to make sure your positioning is such that you are not getting parries. There are some fights where circumstances can push one to the side and I personally make sure I'm not so far to the side I'm in the parry zone (since it gimps your DPS as well as increases damage to your tank).
#1697SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Apoq
Originally Posted by daia View Post
This is exactly it. Make sure you are standing at max range from Gorefiend. I've caught myself getting parried from being too close before.
Unless our MT moved him during the fight I dont think so, I was at the edge of his hitbox. The other melee was standing right on top of me but didn't have the amount of parries I did. I know for a fact though that I was behind him because I got a garrote off as shown in the WWS.

I could understand if I was on top of gorefiend, but I wasn't. That would be obvious. If there is something about gorefiend that I didn't know about like a 360 parry box 2 yards all around him, I'll just chalk it up to bad blizzard tuning. I'm a Belf so my melee range is rather small.
#1698SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Apoq
Originally Posted by Dontmindme View Post
Apoq---

If I were to guess, you were too far into the hit box. This can happen a couple of ways...

1) You actually were too close.
2) Due to server lag issues, your screen showed you one place but the server thought you were closer. This is similar to situations where you think you are in range to hit someone but it says you are too far away, but in a less extreme sense as you can still hit them, just you are also suffering from parries because you are dislocated forward.

You might want to pay a little attention to your attacks to make sure your positioning is such that you are not getting parries. There are some fights where circumstances can push one to the side and I personally make sure I'm not so far to the side I'm in the parry zone (since it gimps your DPS as well as increases damage to your tank).
Well, I've never had a problem like that yet, so I guess I'll have to keep that in mind. I was getting d/c'd alot earlier that night but my latency was still around 110 when I logged back in.

The belf melee range is just so small though, where I'm used to human melee range. Well thanks everybody I'll have to adjust to it I guess and find the fine line. wtb shard of contempt =/

I've known about standing a little too close even though I'm behind it and I'm aware of that, I was clearly far behind gorefiend on my screen though(just outside his target circle). Any further back and I wouldn't be able to hit him. I guess my lag issues continued last night. I never really pay attention to my damage numbers, etc, as I'm coordinating raids and such. I'll have to use SCT to show parries in a better place.

It's hard to know though when you inevitably get parries anyway when the boss turns around to cast at the raid.
#1699SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Shaker
BTW, on hard hitting bosses that do this, it's not a horrible idea to have the tank turn him 90 degrees so that the melee are able to position in such a way that the majority of the time he turns to cast a RSTS ability you don't get parries.
         M
    T G


R A N G E D
(T = Tank, M = Melee, G = Gorefiend, Ranged = ranged/healers)

This would also work on Morogrim and Anatheron (for the fights I have experience with)
#1700SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Apoq
Originally Posted by Shaker View Post
BTW, on hard hitting bosses that do this, it's not a horrible idea to have the tank turn him 90 degrees so that the melee are able to position in such a way that the majority of the time he turns to cast a RSTS ability you don't get parries.
         M
    T G


R A N G E D
(T = Tank, M = Melee, G = Gorefiend, Ranged = ranged/healers)

This would also work on Morogrim and Anatheron (for the fights I have experience with)
Now thats a good idea!! lol

Yeah that would help greatly >.< Our tank is pretty hearty and was never in danger, but that would sure help with melee dps when bosses turn to cast.
#1701SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3m1rado
Originally Posted by Apoq View Post
Fist spec is diminished by overall missed attacks, etc. It's not actually going to be a 5% crit gain in a raid v/s a 73 mob. Depends on your hit rate and expertise.

Mace spec however is not mitigated but rather enhanced by set bonuses, % buffs, procs, RED, etc..

The real reason Mace spec is good right now is itemisation. Rod of the Sun King is one of the best MH weapons(aside from glaive), it just happens to be a mace. =/ The limits of every spec is solely dependant on itemisation. I've found that I have to go with the flow and maximize my spec with what drops.

Try out Mace MH/Sword OH with 16/45/0 combat mace/sword spec.
That doesn't make sense, misses are not possible missed crits, a 5% increase to my critical chance equates out to 5% more damage. I still miss just as often with 20% crit and 25% crit, but with fist spec, you lose 5% "Hit" attacks, and gain 5% "Crit" attacks. I have 313 hit rating(+Precision) with food, so roughly 4% miss chance on white hits, and the normal 5 expertise for a dwarf combat spec'd rogue.

Spec'd TSH with 2/2 WEx and 4/5 Mace spec, I managed 640~ dps on the Oz fight in kara, so actual DPS would be higher on say, Attumen.

So, let's just say 700dps.
- About 85% of my DPS is whites/hemos, so 25% of that 85% should be crit damage.
- 85% of 700dps = 595dps
- 25% of 595 is 148.75dps
- So, my criticals contribute 148.75dps to my total, so mace spec would add 5% more of that, thus a 7.4375 dps upgrade from mace spec.

- 700dps*5% = 35dps

So, unless the "overall missed attacks, etc" accounts for 28.4dps loss, I don't follow.

Also, according to my assessment report of Opera through Aran in kara, I missed approx. 1.1% of total attacks, explained by being over the hit cap on non-bosses and the fact that I had 352hit rating then.

Also, as much as I like min/maxing with TSH/Combat, I'm doing 41/20 mutilate, I just find it more fun.

Being that I don't have access to SSC/TK+ level stuff yet, the best weapons available are swords/fists/daggers.

Now, this is just the math as I understand it, if I've got anything wrong, feel free to point it out.
#1702SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Aldriana
No, you're more or less on target. I think the easiest way to look at is as follows:

Mace spec adds 5% of your weapon damage to 40% of your attacks, or roughly a 2% of your weapon DPS.
Fist spec adds 100% of your weapon damage to 5% of your attacks, or roughly 5% of your weapon DPS.

Now, the itemization points are somewhat valid; it is true that there's sort of a deficit of good fists from raiding (until 2.4, anyway, but I digress). However, it's also true that Talon of the Phoenix - and Talon of Azshara - and Blade of Infamy - are all better than Rod of the Sun King in practice (because mace spec is relatively weak). So from an optimal raid DPS perspective, there's really not much reason to ever go maces.

Not to mention the fact that the availability of pvp weapons reduces the need to worry about itemization constraints; really, the only reason to ever do anything other than sword/sword is the novelty value (fist spec isn't far behind, but it is behind; and as long as you're buying a pvp weapon and have your choice, why not pick the best one?)
#1703SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Latito
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
Mace spec adds 5% of your weapon damage to 40% of your attacks (assuming 40% crit rate), or roughly a 2% of your weapon DPS.
Fist spec adds 100% of your weapon damage to 5% of your attacks, or roughly 5% of your weapon DPS.
Not *quite*. It doesn't make your crits do quad dmg, but turns 5% of your attacks from hits to crits. If you had a 100% chance to hit (no miss, glance, dodge, crit, etc).. this would be true. If you had a really really low hit and crit, you may well be getting greater than a 5% increase in dmg from 5% more crits. Most likely however, you are getting slightly less than 5% added dmg from crits - somewhere around or just under 4%.

I have no doubt YOU are aware of that Ald.. just clarifying in general.
#1704SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Aldriana
Thing is, that effect applies equally. That math is a bit misleading in that you don't actually "do" 100% weapon damage (but hey, it's napkin math, what do you want). But both of them are taking the same percentage of whatever abstract concept you're measuring.

So, to spell this out a little more closely: lets say you make 100 swings. On the average in 100 swings, you have, say,
c crits
h hits
m misses (omitting glances and dodges for clarity). Your total base damage is then 2c + h.

With mace spec, the crits now do 2.05x damage. Thus, you now do 2.05c + h damage, an increase of .05c. Thus, with a 40% crit rate (c = 40), you gain an extra 2 swings worth of damage.

With fist spec, you now have c+5 crits and h-5 hits. Thus, your total damage is 2(c+5) + (h-5) = 2c+h+5, an increase of 5.

So by "base weapon damage", what I mean is "the average damage done by a hit" - which is not the same thing as the amount of damage you're actually doing (though it is related). The relevant point is that your overall weapon damage increases by 5% of some quantity X for fist spec, and (assuming 40% crit rate) 2% of that same quantity for Mace Spec.

Admittedly, the real situation is vastly more complicated due to yellow damage, lethality, RED, and so on; but in terms of napkinmath and intuition, it should be clear that fist spec is a fair amount better.
#1705SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Left
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
With mace spec, the crits now do 2.05x damage. Thus, you now do 2.05c + h damage, an increase of .05c.
I thought mace spec and RED actually worked differently from Lethality in that they multiplied your crit damage instead of adding to it, or am I mistaken? IE, (2.00)*1.05 = 2.10 from mace spec, or (2.00)*1.03 = 2.06 from RED.
#1706SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Hanos
The the sake of satisfying my personal curiosity, I did our bi-weekly Bear Farming run last night as Shadowstep (20/0/41), because I really didn't feel like dropping 100g to respec back to combat for a 40 min ZA run. Anyway, for those interested, here are 2 runs, one as Combat, one as Shadowstep, with the same exact group, same buffs and everything.

Combat: Wow Web Stats
Shadowstep: WWS Loading...

Eagle:
Combat: 2044
Shadowstep: 1637
Difference - 407 DPS

Bear:
Combat: 1587 (No Herois)
Shadowstep: 1516 (Heroism)
Difference - 71 DPS

Firehawk:
Combat: 1271
Shadowstep: 1102
Difference - 169 DPS

Lynx:
Combat: 1653
Shadowstep: 1535
Difference - 118 DPS


Interpret this however you want.
#1707SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Tarquin
I assume the huge gap on the Eagle is due to some well-timed Blade Flurries on birds? Cause it seems kind of backwards; unless you're collapsing on the tank for storms, I'd think that being able to Shadowstep back into melee would be a bit of a boost compared to, say, the Bear.
#1708SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Aldriana
Originally Posted by Left View Post
I thought mace spec and RED actually worked differently from Lethality in that they multiplied your crit damage instead of adding to it, or am I mistaken? IE, (2.00)*1.05 = 2.10 from mace spec, or (2.00)*1.03 = 2.06 from RED.
My understanding is that RED multiplies but Mace Spec adds, though it might be worth doublechecking that. It doesn't really affect the underlying point, though; if Mace Spec *does* add, while it certainly narrows the gap between maces and fists, maces are still behind for a crit rate under 50%.
#1709SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Left
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
My understanding is that RED multiplies but Mace Spec adds, though it might be worth doublechecking that. It doesn't really affect the underlying point, though; if Mace Spec *does* add, while it certainly narrows the gap between maces and fists, maces are still behind for a crit rate under 50%.
Well, yes, it brings it to ~3-4% vs. 5%, which is so close as to make the weapon itemization much more important.

I was going off some other posts in this thread (can't find them atm), plus the wording on the talent. Lethality, which is additive, increases the "critical strike damage bonus" of certain attacks. RED, which is multiplicative, says "3% increased critical damage." Mace spec says "increases the damage done by your critical strikes with maces", which leads me to believe it is multiplicative. Testing for verification would certainly be helpful, though.
#1710SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3roq
Originally Posted by Shaker View Post
BTW, on hard hitting bosses that do this, it's not a horrible idea to have the tank turn him 90 degrees so that the melee are able to position in such a way that the majority of the time he turns to cast a RSTS ability you don't get parries.
         M
    T G


R A N G E D
(T = Tank, M = Melee, G = Gorefiend, Ranged = ranged/healers)

This would also work on Morogrim and Anatheron (for the fights I have experience with)
Damn, i never thought about that. I always assumed you wouldn't get parry's During RSTS, since the mob isn't really turning around. I don't ever remember getting a you can't BS the mob cause you aren't behind him. I guess i pay more attention on monday when i fight moro.
#1711SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Apoq
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
My understanding is that RED multiplies but Mace Spec adds, though it might be worth doublechecking that. It doesn't really affect the underlying point, though; if Mace Spec *does* add, while it certainly narrows the gap between maces and fists, maces are still behind for a crit rate under 50%.
I beg to differ but offer no real math behind it. I'm at 40% crit buffed, 43% with sanctified crusader. With current itemisation Rod v/s Talon MH and Savagery OH, maces comes out on top. I gain on average 60 energy during a 4 minute encounter with the Rod. On top of having a big top end difference, T6 4/5 bonus, mace spec bonus, RED, I'm getting alot more SS damage than I would with the talon. As far as I know, mace spec multiplies just like RED.

Is there a way I can test this for sure? I wouldn't mind doing it because I'd like to know for myself. (Lvl 1 mace v/s lvl 1 sword/fist with the same min/max and speed over say 5 minutes of autoattacks with no gear on and no OH?)

In my previous post I didn't mean that mace/sword spec was better, I just said that with current PvE itemisation, it's better than fist/sword.

In 2.4 it'll be completely different with the new PvE weapons, etc.

You could argue that Season 3 weapons are part of current itemisation but in that sense pure sword/sword is best anyway. Also some people don't have the time/patience for arena.
#1712SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3axelsoar
well, thanks

So you may or may not care about this but I thought some of you might get a laugh outta this. I'm currently in my last year of high school at the moment and I'm home schooled. I'm trying to get my last credit of math done right now and I was having trouble deciding how to go about earning it, until I heard about theorycrafting. Long story short, I'm going to use these formulas and whatnot about rogue dps to calculate my rogues dps and chance to hit, ect. and use all that to get credit for my last year of math. So, thanks to you guys, I'm going to be graduating on time
#1713SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Hanos
Originally Posted by Tarquin View Post
I assume the huge gap on the Eagle is due to some well-timed Blade Flurries on birds? Cause it seems kind of backwards; unless you're collapsing on the tank for storms, I'd think that being able to Shadowstep back into melee would be a bit of a boost compared to, say, the Bear.
We collapse on the tank, and basically ignore the birds (Warlock might seed), so my time on the boss is 99% or higher, occasionally the storm comes early and I have to back out a little (I think I backed out once on the Shadowstep run, slightly, cloaked and stepped back in, so not even a full storm duration. The whole point of the run is to steamroll the bosses, so everything else is second to DPS, and in Full T6, it really isn't an issue.

Also, forgot to mention I got the cloak off Teron between runs, which should contribute about 10 DPS to the Shadowstep run.
#1714SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Hanos
Originally Posted by axelsoar View Post
So you may or may not care about this but I thought some of you might get a laugh outta this. I'm currently in my last year of high school at the moment and I'm home schooled. I'm trying to get my last credit of math done right now and I was having trouble deciding how to go about earning it, until I heard about theorycrafting. Long story short, I'm going to use these formulas and whatnot about rogue dps to calculate my rogues dps and chance to hit, ect. and use all that to get credit for my last year of math. So, thanks to you guys, I'm going to be graduating on time
Calculating your DPS without using a spreadsheet would be an interesting project, but you have to take into account all the variables, from dodges, to glancing blows, to buff times, to procs. Based on your gear, I assume your raid experience and experience with min-maxing is pretty limited, so working through it will also probably make you a better rogue. If you want someone to look over the math and check it for accuracy feel free to post it here.

Also, don't forget when doing a project like this you will need to include all of the assumptions, which are known here but aren't known outside of the theorycrafting community (things like 15.8 Hit Rating = 1% to hit, base miss rate = 28% for Duel Wield, etc.)
#1715SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Shaker
Originally Posted by Hanos View Post
Also, forgot to mention I got the cloak off Teron between runs, which should contribute about 10 DPS to the Shadowstep run.
About time, I was beginning to worry I'd get another best in slot before you. Congrats.

And to the math thing - what level math are you at? There's some really interesting math that's been done and I'm sure several people could point you towards a neat application based on your level. In particular, if you're up around the calculus level, a Newton's Method approximation of DPS addition from the DST proc would be a pretty slick show, and should be easy enough to explain to a teacher without going into "Well, you have to stand off the back right leg of dragons, because they have TAILS and HEADS, of course, each with their own dangers".
#1716SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
 Vulajin
Originally Posted by Apoq View Post
I beg to differ but offer no real math behind it. I'm at 40% crit buffed, 43% with sanctified crusader. With current itemisation Rod v/s Talon MH and Savagery OH, maces comes out on top. I gain on average 60 energy during a 4 minute encounter with the Rod. On top of having a big top end difference, T6 4/5 bonus, mace spec bonus, RED, I'm getting alot more SS damage than I would with the talon. As far as I know, mace spec multiplies just like RED.

Is there a way I can test this for sure? I wouldn't mind doing it because I'd like to know for myself. (Lvl 1 mace v/s lvl 1 sword/fist with the same min/max and speed over say 5 minutes of autoattacks with no gear on and no OH?)
As I recall from my brief testing back when mace spec was changed, the difference between mace spec adding or multiplying with RED is so small that it's impossible to experimentally determine.

(edit) Ah, my mistake. That, however, seems easy enough to test. Pick up a white mace with a 1-3 damage range, and beat on a mob until you've gotten a whole bunch of hits and a whole bunch of crits. Make sure you're not wearing RED or using any AP procs. Divide crit damage by hit damage. 2.10 versus 2.05 should be pretty noticeable.

Last edited by Vulajin : 02/29/08 at 5:46 PM.
#1717SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Aldriana
We're not talking about how they apply with each other (which is going to be so small as to be negligible) - we're talking about how Mace Spec applies in the first place. Do you do 2 + .05 or 2 * (1.05) times your usual damage on a crit?
#1718SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Kellaris
Hey, fairly new rogue here. I am an enchanter and had a few questions about ring enchants.

It was said in the OP that 4stats > 2wepdmg. Is there any math supporting this? At first glance it seems to me that +4 damage to all attacks is better than 8agi/8str/8stam (80 hp, 16ap, .21% crit unbuffed). I'm probably wrong as I'm sure I'm much less knowledgeable about rogues than all of you, but I was just looking for some supporting math.

Edit: Combat swords specced.

Last edited by Kellaris : 03/01/08 at 9:22 PM.
#1719SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Aldriana
1) It is recommended that you don't sign your posts.

2) The math showing that stats is better than striking is in the spreadsheets. The assertion is less true of daggers (being faster, they benefit more from +weapon damage), so if you're a dagger rogue the reverse might hold; but for swords/maces/fists it is usually the case that stats is superior. To figure out which is better for you in particular, I recommend consulting your local neighborhood spreadsheet, both of which are linked in the first post.
#1720SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
robfang
Originally Posted by Hanos View Post
The the sake of satisfying my personal curiosity, I did our bi-weekly Bear Farming run last night as Shadowstep (20/0/41), because I really didn't feel like dropping 100g to respec back to combat for a 40 min ZA run. Anyway, for those interested, here are 2 runs, one as Combat, one as Shadowstep, with the same exact group, same buffs and everything.

Combat: Wow Web Stats
Shadowstep: WWS Loading...

Eagle:
Combat: 2044
Shadowstep: 1637
Difference - 407 DPS

Bear:
Combat: 1587 (No Herois)
Shadowstep: 1516 (Heroism)
Difference - 71 DPS

Firehawk:
Combat: 1271
Shadowstep: 1102
Difference - 169 DPS

Lynx:
Combat: 1653
Shadowstep: 1535
Difference - 118 DPS


Interpret this however you want.
Since I am a big fan of Shadowstep, my interpretation could be a little bit biased. However, from what I have seen in your values and from my experiences, the difference between these two builds does not seem to be as high as it has been made out.

A 100-120 dps difference is as much as hemo debuff provides to the raid. So if your values can be generalized, Shadowstep did on par with Combat Swords on all bosses other than the Eagle boss. Basically, single target dps of the both builds seem to be close to each other and combat seem to win out by blade flurry.

Shadowstep build could even be used more aggressively than you did in a 5+minutes fight. You could have vanished+premeditated and garroted for instant 3-4 cp generation and for garrote damage and you can do it 2 or 3 times with prep and elusiveness.

The only thing that set combat build back might be that you are using proc based trinkets. If you don't care for proc timing when you blow cooldowns, you could have missed the synergy of trinket procs with cooldowns like AR or BF.

Last edited by robfang : 03/02/08 at 9:47 AM. Reason: Typo
#1721SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Ricard
Problem is, you can't generalize those numbers. Lots and lots of different, non-general elements come into play when the game is being played. Certain random factors in the encounter, for instance. Or different play skill with each spec. Those could both account for the Shadow Step numbers being closer to the combat swords numbers.
#1722SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Zujamar
For robfang

When looking at the WWSs Hanos provided, one should also take into account that he was most likely consuming a majority of the Hemorrhage debuff charges himself, which would not be the case in most 25-man raid situations (which, I assume, is what we're interested in). Thus, the assumed "add 100-120 raid dps"-rule cannot be applied.
#1723SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Hanos
Originally Posted by Shaker View Post
About time, I was beginning to worry I'd get another best in slot before you. Congrats.
Thanks, you will find that there are rarely enough Teron cloaks to go around between Hunters, Rogues, DPS Warriors and Enhancement Shaman. I am now down to 4 items for an ideal gear set Pre-Sunwell, and I get 3 of the 4 the next time they drop :-) (DST, CVoS and Both Warglaives, the MH Warglaive is the only one I am not up for the next time it drops)

Originally Posted by robfang View Post
A 100-120 dps difference is as much as hemo debuff provides to the raid. So if your values can be generalized, Shadowstep did on par with Combat Swords on all bosses other than the Eagle boss. Basically, single target dps of the both builds seem to be close to each other and combat seem to win out by blade flurry.
First off I am using some of the Hemo charges, and best case scenario you getting about 100 DPS from the debuff, if you assume I got 20-30 more of that DPS then I would in a full raid, you are seeing more like 150 DPS difference.

Originally Posted by robfang View Post
Shadowstep build could even be used more aggressively than you did in a 5+minutes fight. You could have vanished+premeditated and garroted for instant 3-4 cp generation and for garrote damage and you can do it 2 or 3 times with prep and elusiveness.
I theory that sounds good, in practice, I found that doing that sucked for the same reason vanishing as combat isn't a good idea unless you need the aggro drop. Basically you completely offset the DPS gain with the loss of auto attacks during the vanish. I really even had a hard time justifying using Shadowstep on bosses because between the 10 energy, possible loss of an auto attack (it seems to reset the swing timers), I wasn't sure if it was actually doing more DPS then just using that energy as part of a normal cycle (and I really only used it for 5 point ruptures).

The only thing that set combat build back might be that you are using proc based trinkets. If you don't care for proc timing when you blow cooldowns, you could have missed the synergy of trinket procs with cooldowns like AR or BF.
There aren't any best in slot non-proc based trinkets, and generally atleast one if not both is up during cooldowns. Using Berserker's Call (best click trinket) is actually a DPS decrease in every situation for Combat, so not really a good idea.

Originally Posted by Zujamar View Post
When looking at the WWSs Hanos provided, one should also take into account that he was most likely consuming a majority of the Hemorrhage debuff charges himself, which would not be the case in most 25-man raid situations (which, I assume, is what we're interested in). Thus, the assumed "add 100-120 raid dps"-rule cannot be applied.
Rogue (me), Enhancement Shaman, Warrior (Tank), Hunter, and Feral all meleeing means I was probably using more then I would get in a 25 man, but I doubt I was using the majority of them.


I logged our run again last night and will parse it this evening to see how it compares, and depending on how rich I am feeling I might try Combat Shadowstep for the next run to see how it compares, since I think the DPS will be better over all (S&D is a PITA without the talented version). However, you still have the issue then of Assassination-SS is an Arena Spec, and Combat-SS is just some delusional hybrid that fails at everything.

At this point I still feel very confident that Combat > Tri-Spec > Combat SS > Assassination SS, and I have yet to see any real additional utility on the runs (other then the fun of SS'ing and killing a Scout) that would lead me to want to spec it for anything other then Arenas.
#1724SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Ozzmar
Originally Posted by Hanos View Post
I logged our run again last night and will parse it this evening to see how it compares, and depending on how rich I am feeling I might try Combat Shadowstep for the next run to see how it compares, since I think the DPS will be better over all (S&D is a PITA without the talented version). However, you still have the issue then of Assassination-SS is an Arena Spec, and Combat-SS is just some delusional hybrid that fails at everything.
Maybe this belongs in the DPS Spreadsheet thread, but you skirted pretty close to something that's been puzzling me a bit when you called unimproved SnD a PITA (which I totally agree with).

Just for gits 'n shiggles, I was playing around with the Assn/SS spec with some Season 1 weapons just to see how my DPS would change. As expected, it dropped 50-60 DPS (about 7-8%).

But, what's curious is that the spreadsheet says to run a 5r cycle, which seems to go against the golden rule of being a rogue: Never let SnD drop. Purely speculating, but would this be due to a low hit rating? Serrated Blades making Rupture that much better? Both?

[Yes, I have Shadowstep set for Finishers.]
#1725SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Apoq
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
We're not talking about how they apply with each other (which is going to be so small as to be negligible) - we're talking about how Mace Spec applies in the first place. Do you do 2 + .05 or 2 * (1.05) times your usual damage on a crit?
Gonna try and test this tonight, no gear on, combat mace/sword spec, with a lvl 1 mace. I'll post results later tonight.
#1726SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Latito
I would suggest actually wearing a good deal of AP gear. The idea is not that you hit for very low damage amounts, but rather than you hit for a very consistent amount. In fact, if you had no gear on and were smacking some mob for 3-4 dmg a hit, it would be quite difficult to tell the difference between a 2.05 and a 2.10 crit modifier for maces. If you were smacking that mob for say, 150-151.. it would be a much easier task.
#1727SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Hanos
Originally Posted by Ozzmar View Post
Maybe this belongs in the DPS Spreadsheet thread, but you skirted pretty close to something that's been puzzling me a bit when you called unimproved SnD a PITA (which I totally agree with).

Just for gits 'n shiggles, I was playing around with the Assn/SS spec with some Season 1 weapons just to see how my DPS would change. As expected, it dropped 50-60 DPS (about 7-8%).

But, what's curious is that the spreadsheet says to run a 5r cycle, which seems to go against the golden rule of being a rogue: Never let SnD drop. Purely speculating, but would this be due to a low hit rating? Serrated Blades making Rupture that much better? Both?

[Yes, I have Shadowstep set for Finishers.]
Well I was running with the gear in my Profile and generally using +hit food on bosses, so 299 Hit Rating with 6 Expertise from Belt of One-Hundred Deaths. Actually, low hit rating doesn't mean anything regarding cycles for a non-combat build since you only need 9% hit to not miss on Hemo/Rupture so 143 Hit Rating. The issue I ran into is that it is very hard to get off a 5 Point Rupture, followed by any reasonable length S&D. What I found myself doing was working my way up to a 5 point S&D with as much extra energy as I could (I had to watch S&D time much more closely then with Combat), then getting a 5 point Rupture, then working my way back up to a 5 point S&D, with a couple smaller ones inbetween. Basically you only use 5 point Ruptures, but it is much closer to a Dagger Cycle then a Sword Cycles, something like 3s/5s/SS-5r, but I actually think I needed more small S&D's in there.
#1728SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Apoq
Originally Posted by Latito View Post
I would suggest actually wearing a good deal of AP gear. The idea is not that you hit for very low damage amounts, but rather than you hit for a very consistent amount. In fact, if you had no gear on and were smacking some mob for 3-4 dmg a hit, it would be quite difficult to tell the difference between a 2.05 and a 2.10 crit modifier for maces. If you were smacking that mob for say, 150-151.. it would be a much easier task.
I think lvl 70 rogues have like 350 AP naked, so it wouldn't exactly be 3-4 dmg per hit. I think another thing to keep in mind is that I dont want to get too wide of a range of attacks. The lower the weapon damage range the better.

Also, it doesn't have to be exact because lets say on average I was critting for 2.085 of a regular attack. It's safe to say it's multiplied and the RNG found me to be unlucky on my top end crits. I'm trying to avoid wearing gear that may skew results.
#1729SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Dontmindme
I've done that sort of testing in the past. Don't worry about lowering AP, it doesn't matter at all.

Using a 1-3 damage weapon with 140 AP = 1-3 + 10 = 11 - 13 damage. (22-26 on crit)
Using a 1-3 damage weapon with 1400 AP = 1-3 +100 = 101 - 103 damage. (202-206 on crit)
Using a 1-3 damage weapon with 2800 AP = 1-3 +200 = 201 - 203 damage. (402-406 on crit)

The damage range is the same no matter what the AP.
Clearly, the higher your AP, the better chance of distinguishing the percent difference too.

Just make sure you don't have RED equipped and it's a non-murderable mob (if you have Murder) and the calcs are easier.
#1730SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Apoq
Originally Posted by Dontmindme View Post
I've done that sort of testing in the past. Don't worry about lowering AP, it doesn't matter at all.

Using a 1-3 damage weapon with 140 AP = 1-3 + 10 = 11 - 13 damage. (22-26 on crit)
Using a 1-3 damage weapon with 1400 AP = 1-3 +100 = 101 - 103 damage. (202-206 on crit)
Using a 1-3 damage weapon with 2800 AP = 1-3 +200 = 201 - 203 damage. (402-406 on crit)

The damage range is the same no matter what the AP.
Clearly, the higher your AP, the better chance of distinguishing the percent difference too.

Just make sure you don't have RED equipped and it's a non-murderable mob (if you have Murder) and the calcs are easier.
Have any recommendations for a specific mob?
#1731SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Trazhenko
Undead stuff in Tirisfal/Ghostland lowbie areas would probably work well.
#1732SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Dontmindme
Low levels are best. For example Level 1's often have 10 armor, so there is no noticeable armor reduction. Since that's where you are going to find your low damage weapon anyway...

It can be done on other mobs, you would have to calculate the armor reduction and compare to non-crit damage. If the armor is low enough (like a Level 1 mob), you don't really even have to compare the damage to a non-crit.
#1733SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Apoq
Originally Posted by Dontmindme View Post
Low levels are best. For example Level 1's often have 10 armor, so there is no noticeable armor reduction. Since that's where you are going to find your low damage weapon anyway...

It can be done on other mobs, you would have to calculate the armor reduction and compare to non-crit damage. If the armor is low enough (like a Level 1 mob), you don't really even have to compare the damage to a non-crit.
I'll be home from work in an hour and head out to the valley of trials.

You guys want me to post the log or just post my min/average/max hit and crits? How large of a sample do you want?
#1734SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Aldriana
So, if you're using a weapon with a range of 1-3, there should only be 3 possible values of your noncrit damage, so I would go until you've seen two values that differ by 2 on hits; I would then repeat on crits until you have a fairly reasonable range of crit damage as well (theoretically they can differ by as much as 4, one would think, but even if you can only get a range of 3 that might suffice). So I would just go until you'd seen all (or close to all) allowable damage values, and then just post a list of what those damage values are.

The other thing you might try is kicking mobs; I believe Kick uses the crit properties of your MH, and since it has a fixed damage range, one crit and one noncrit should be sufficient to give us an idea what's going on.
#1735SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Ozzmar
Originally Posted by Hanos View Post
Actually, low hit rating doesn't mean anything regarding cycles for a non-combat build since you only need 9% hit to not miss on Hemo/Rupture so 143 Hit Rating.
Yea I understand that, maybe I was unclear. I was referring to the fact that having a higher hit rating (regardless of spec) will scale up how much extra damage you gain during your SnD duration. I was speculating that because my hit rating is hovering just above 200 (Kara gear level) that the frequence of my misses diminishes the value of SnD to the point that Rupture actually becomes more valuable and provides more actual DPS.

Does that make more sense?

Last edited by Ozzmar : 03/03/08 at 4:57 PM.
#1736SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Apoq
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
So, if you're using a weapon with a range of 1-3, there should only be 3 possible values of your noncrit damage, so I would go until you've seen two values that differ by 2 on hits; I would then repeat on crits until you have a fairly reasonable range of crit damage as well (theoretically they can differ by as much as 4, one would think, but even if you can only get a range of 3 that might suffice). So I would just go until you'd seen all (or close to all) allowable damage values, and then just post a list of what those damage values are.

The other thing you might try is kicking mobs; I believe Kick uses the crit properties of your MH, and since it has a fixed damage range, one crit and one noncrit should be sufficient to give us an idea what's going on.
I've been out here for about 45 minutes killing lvl 1-2 skellies and zombies. Weapon used was [Club] 1-3 damage range.

Min-Max hit: 52-54
Min-Max crit: 109-113

Min-Max kick hit: 109-110
Min-Max kick crit: 230-232

Seems like it's 2.10 to me.

I was completely naked, nothing else but the club on. No buffs, 375 AP. using 16/45 mace/sword spec.
#1737SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Aldriana
So, it seems to me that something else must be going on, as those numbers don't quite add up.

Consider: a kick does 110 damage. Thus, if it is a 2.1 multiplier, a crit kick should be 2.1 * 110 = 231 damage. How, then, do we have a crit kick doing 232 damage?

I mean, lets be clear, this definitely does look like a 2.1x multiplier... I just want to make sure that there aren't other factors muddying the data before we say for certain that the 2.1x multiplier is due to mace spec.
#1738SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Shaker
Yeah, another anomoly is that 109 * 2.1 = 228.9, even rounding that should have produced a 229 crit kick (and I'm going to assume that in 45 minutes he'd have seen a crit kick for every value, but that could be an incorrect assumption), whereas 109 * 2.11 = 229.99. 110 * 2.11 = 232.1, so it feels like the multiplier is consistently 2.11.
#1739SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Latito
With the PTR down tonight, I can probably do this myself as well later on. I'll get a set with an AP value which is divisible by 140 so we are guaranteed a nice baseline number. Also, I can wear some armor Pen gear in case some of those mobs have like 50 armor or something which is minutely skewing the results.
#1740SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Aldriana
So, the thing about kick is that it's damage is constant; thus, the 109 must be caused by armor mitigation. Thus, it's probably *really* doing 109.4 (or whatever) damage, that is being rounded down to 109; but the crit is doing 109.4 * 2.1 = 229.74 damage, which rounds to 230. So *that* part of it doesn't much bother me; it's wholly consistant with a 2.1 multiplier. But the max damage case really does have me stumped.
#1741SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Apoq
Keep in mind the 45 minutes I was out was 30 minutes autoattacking and like 10 minutes kicking.

I can go back out and do longer tests if you want. (and some armor pen)

175 armor pen

~80 kick hits: all 110
37 kick crits: all 231

And I didn't know but kick only inherits your MH spec only when you have that type MH equipped. Mace spec + nothing in the MH, kick crits = 220.

Last edited by Apoq : 03/03/08 at 7:50 PM.
#1742SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Viper
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
So, the thing about kick is that it's damage is constant; thus, the 109 must be caused by armor mitigation. Thus, it's probably *really* doing 109.4 (or whatever) damage, that is being rounded down to 109; but the crit is doing 109.4 * 2.1 = 229.74 damage, which rounds to 230. So *that* part of it doesn't much bother me; it's wholly consistant with a 2.1 multiplier. But the max damage case really does have me stumped.
Isn't the simple answer here just that the level 1 and level 2 mobs he was attacking have different armor values, producing the 1-2 damage "variation"?

109.4 * 2.1 = 229.74 (230)
110.4 * 2.1 = 231.84 (232)
#1743SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Scheme
Originally Posted by Viper View Post
Isn't the simple answer here just that the level 1 and level 2 mobs he was attacking have different armor values, producing the 1-2 damage "variation"?

109.4 * 2.1 = 229.74 (230)
110.4 * 2.1 = 231.84 (232)
No, because kick does 110 damage max non-crit, not 110.4. There is no such thing as negative armor penetration.
#1744SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Danen3
If I still have a 1-2 ticks of rupture left and i've already got 5cp, do I refresh or just SS till it's up?
#1745SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 AtADeadRun
Originally Posted by Danen3 View Post
If I still have a 1-2 ticks of rupture left and i've already got 5cp, do I refresh or just SS till it's up?
Conventional wisdom about DoTs of all sorts is that clipping ticks causes the efficiency of that DoT to drop like a rock. Typically, since you're SSing as soon as you get 40 energy anyway, you can afford to wait a few seconds without doing anything to let the Rup finish. You'll end up around 60 energy, and can reapply the Rup and SS twice, as fast as the GCD, without wasting energy.
#1746SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Aldriana
So, I'm still not clear on what's happening with Mace spec in the earlier tests, but I ran a few tests of my own and I think I can shed a bit of light on the situation.

So, first, I took off all my proc effects and my RED, specced Mace Spec but not Mirder, and started kicking rats in the Deeprun Tram. As my remaining gear still had a couple hundred ArPen on it, the rats thus had zero armor. Hence, kicks were doing 110 base and 231 crit - exactly a 2.1x multiplier. Meanwhile, my regular attacks were doing 232-234 hit and 487-491 crit; I leave it as an exercise to the reader to show that this is also a 2.1x multiplier.

Next question: how does this stack with Lethality? Well, I then specced Lethality (but still not Murder) and started SSing rats; said SS were doing 390-392 hit and 949-953 crit, which appears to be roughly a 2.43x multiplier. So it appears that the stacking is as follows: Mace Spec increases crit damage to 2.1x; the crit multiplier is then interpreted to be 210%-100% = +110%, which is then increased by 30% to 110% * 1.3 = 143%, for a total multiplier of 243%.

Next question: how does this stack with RED? Well, at this point I put my RED back on and whacked some more rats, yielding hits for 253-255 and crits of 548-552. Now, lets look at this a bit more carefully. The weapon I'm using is a 1.9 speed weapon with a range of 1-3, and I have 1859 attack power. Thus, my actual damage range is 253.29 to 255.29, meaning hits should do 253-255 (which they do). Now, if RED and Mace Spec apply additively, crits should do 2.16x damage, or 547.1 to 551.4 damage - which rounds to 547-551. But we *didn't* see any 547s, and we *did* see a 552 - so additive seems unlikely. But if we do multiplicative (multiplier = 2 * 1.05 * 1.03 = 2.163), the expected range is now 547.9 to 552.2, which rounds to 548 to 552 - exactly what we observed. Thus, RED and Mace Spec apply multiplicatively.

Based on these two points, we postulate that if all 3 attacks were active, it would do ((2 * 1.05 * 1.03)-1)*1.3+1 = 2.5119x damage; this is more or less consistant with my data, but without an alternative theory I can't really prove that this is right or wrong. But it does seem to be the logical thing.

As a side note at this point, I'd like to put forth a random conjecture for future testing. I assert that damage is computed as a random floating-point value in the specified range, all calculations computed thereupon, and then rounded to the nearest integer after all computations are complete. This would show up in practice as a frequency distribution of observed values. In particular, in the above case where my true damage is believed to be 253.29 to 255.29, I should see 253 10% of the time, 254 50% of the time, and 255 40% of the time. I'd be interested to see a long test to see if these probabilities hold up.

And for those of you who might be wondering: this does in fact mean that Mace Spec is improperly modeled in the Rogue Gear sheet. I'll try to get a fix out sometime this week.
#1747SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Apoq
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
As a side note at this point, I'd like to put forth a random conjecture for future testing. I assert that damage is computed as a random floating-point value in the specified range, all calculations computed thereupon, and then rounded to the nearest integer after all computations are complete. This would show up in practice as a frequency distribution of observed values. In particular, in the above case where my true damage is believed to be 253.29 to 255.29, I should see 253 10% of the time, 254 50% of the time, and 255 40% of the time. I'd be interested to see a long test to see if these probabilities hold up.

And for those of you who might be wondering: this does in fact mean that Mace Spec is improperly modeled in the Rogue Gear sheet. I'll try to get a fix out sometime this week.
Thanks for giving mace spec a second thought Aldriana. Using napkin math, this puts Mace/Sword spec ahead of Fist/Sword spec and on par with Pure Sword spec(Only because of the free points to use in Vile poisons) based on end game itemization.

Last edited by Apoq : 03/04/08 at 11:17 AM.
#1748SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Dontmindme
Originally Posted by Apoq View Post
Thanks for giving mace spec a second thought Aldriana. Using napkin math, this puts Mace/Sword spec ahead of Fist/Sword spec and on par with Pure Sword spec(Only because of the free points to use in Vile poisons) based on end game itemization.
I wouldn't jump so far ahead and claim Mace/Sword is on par with Sword/Sword. I'm still seeing a net decrease from switching to an equivalent Mace in the DPS spreadsheet (which when I looked it over had been calculating Mace spec this way all along). This was without taking away the 5 talent points (I just added Mace spec, didn't take away from any other talents).

It does seem to put Mace/Sword above Fist/Sword though, but still below Sword/Sword even without accounting for the 5 extra Talent points Sword/Sword gets.
#1749SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Ozzmar
Originally Posted by Danen3 View Post
If I still have a 1-2 ticks of rupture left and i've already got 5cp, do I refresh or just SS till it's up?
Consider tightening your cycle maybe? If you're generating points so quickly, you might be able to keep up a 3s/5r cycle and not have to worry about wasting points or ticks.
#1750SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Latito
Originally Posted by Apoq View Post
Thanks for giving mace spec a second thought Aldriana. Using napkin math, this puts Mace/Sword spec ahead of Fist/Sword spec and on par with Pure Sword spec(Only because of the free points to use in Vile poisons) based on end game itemization.
I fail to see how even a multiplicative damage modifier which only applies to crits (~40% of your attacks) is potentially anywhere close to having a fast OH sword proc slow MH attacks which aren't affected by dual-wield penalty.

Sure, this will potentially boost Mace spec closer to Fist spec, but it won't come near Sword spec.

Edit: Beaten while reading the posts.
#1751SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Apoq
Originally Posted by Dontmindme View Post
I wouldn't jump so far ahead and claim Mace/Sword is on par with Sword/Sword. I'm still seeing a net decrease from switching to an equivalent Mace in the DPS spreadsheet (which when I looked it over had been calculating Mace spec this way all along). This was without taking away the 5 talent points (I just added Mace spec, didn't take away from any other talents).

It does seem to put Mace/Sword above Fist/Sword though, but still below Sword/Sword even without accounting for the 5 extra Talent points Sword/Sword gets.

Using your spreadsheet with the default T6 gear uploaded in it I switch from S3 Mace in the MH to S3 Sword in the MH and put 4 points in Vile poisons, I get a 0.88 loss in DPS, which puts it on par if not slightly better. (buffed DPS)

Originally Posted by Latito View Post
I fail to see how even a multiplicative damage modifier which only applies to crits (~40% of your attacks) is potentially anywhere close to having a fast OH sword proc slow MH attacks which aren't affected by dual-wield penalty.

Sure, this will potentially boost Mace spec closer to Fist spec, but it won't come near Sword spec.

Edit: Beaten while reading the posts.
Because you can spec for both Mace and Sword just like you can Fist/Sword. 16/45 which is what I've been using for a while. Despite having only 1 sword, I still get alot of extra attacks.

Last edited by Apoq : 03/04/08 at 12:11 PM.
#1752SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Dontmindme
Well, let's look at this...
What's the difference between Sword/Sword and Mace/Sword?
First, we have 5 talent points in favor of Sword/Sword.

Let's look at damage:
Mace/Sword loses 5% extra MH attacks that proc MH attacks.
But gains 5% extra damage on all crits (that is multiplied by all crit multipliers) and also includes specials.

It might be possible especially with the high crit rates at top itemization. I was using an old version of the spreadsheet that showed a decline. Current version looks to agree with what you've said. Be interesting to see how this looks on the Gear sheet with those changes.
#1753SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Apoq
Originally Posted by Dontmindme View Post
It might be possible especially with the high crit rates at top itemization. I was using an old version of the spreadsheet that showed a decline. Current version looks to agree with what you've said. Be interesting to see how this looks on the Gear sheet with those changes.

Yes it would. His calculation before all this was that you needed 50% crit for Mace spec to equal Fist spec.
#1754SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Latito
Sorry, brain turned off on me for a second and I was thinking Mace/Mace, not Mace/Sword. Yes, Mace/Sword would certainly draw closer to Sword/Sword. The real difference lies in:

For white attacks, an extra attack is better than extra dmg on crits. In fact, until you have a good 60%+ crit, the extra 5% crit from Fists is more valuable than 5% more dmg on crits.

For yellow attacks, extra dmg on crits vs extra crit chance will have some point at which they become equal. At lower crit rates, Fists will be better. At higher crit rates, Maces will be better. An extra attack proc from a Sinister Strike will generally be worth less than extra damage on Sinister Strike (either via higher crit chance or higher dmg on crits).

These principals will remain true within any feasible level of gearing in a raid environment. Determining which spec is better for you will be largely affected by the itemization you have available to you and your overall hit and crit rates.
#1755SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3coderego
A couple questions guys if you do not mind please.

First: You say executioner/mongoose, you mean executioner main hand mongoose OH ? Also, when is executioner better? You say approaching t6 and I understand that damage reduction from armor is not linear so it becomes good in large amounts...but does anyone know the number of armor pen one should have before executioner?

Second: I just got a 4th piece of tier 5, but that puts my hit down to 243 (unbuffed, unwellfed). Is it worth it to switch in some old gear to improve the hit? Not necessarily breaking the t5 bonus. Perhaps switching in cloak of darkreaver instead of cloak of fiends?


Thanks for the advice!
#1756SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Apoq
Originally Posted by Latito View Post
These principals will remain true within any feasible level of gearing in a raid environment. Determining which spec is better for you will be largely affected by the itemization you have available to you and your overall hit and crit rates.
And we've arrived back to my first post. Due to itemization mace/sword spec can be in some cases better than fist/sword spec and on par with sword/sword spec. =D

Originally Posted by coderego View Post
A couple questions guys if you do not mind please.

First: You say executioner/mongoose, you mean executioner main hand mongoose OH ? Also, when is executioner better? You say approaching t6 and I understand that damage reduction from armor is not linear so it becomes good in large amounts...but does anyone know the number of armor pen one should have before executioner?

Second: I just got a 4th piece of tier 5, but that puts my hit down to 243 (unbuffed, unwellfed). Is it worth it to switch in some old gear to improve the hit? Not necessarily breaking the t5 bonus. Perhaps switching in cloak of darkreaver instead of cloak of fiends?


Thanks for the advice!
Two great minds have been attacking questions just like these via creating and maintaining spreadsheets for quite some time now, among others. Some will find these questions offensive because you didn't even try to answer these questions on your own first.
#1757SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Aldriana
Ex/Mong does refer to MH Executioner and OH Mongoose, which was previously believed to be the best option for high-T6 rogues. This theory has since been debunked; the currently theory is that Mong/Mong is generally going to be the way to go; however, this can't be determined for absolute certain until we know the proc rates on the 2.4 trinkets, so I'm not sure I'd rush out and start reenchanting stuff.

Regarding the second question: you should use the best gear setup available to you, regardless of where any particular stat of yours happens to wind up as a result.
#1758SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3saedo
Originally Posted by coderego View Post
A couple questions guys if you do not mind please.

First: You say executioner/mongoose, you mean executioner main hand mongoose OH ? Also, when is executioner better? You say approaching t6 and I understand that damage reduction from armor is not linear so it becomes good in large amounts...but does anyone know the number of armor pen one should have before executioner?

Second: I just got a 4th piece of tier 5, but that puts my hit down to 243 (unbuffed, unwellfed). Is it worth it to switch in some old gear to improve the hit? Not necessarily breaking the t5 bonus. Perhaps switching in cloak of darkreaver instead of cloak of fiends?


Thanks for the advice!
Ya executioner main hand. But, the info about when executioner is better is outdated. Mongoose almost always better. Might be able to squeeze out a few dps more with executioner under the right conditions and high gear levels, but mongoose wins out all other times.

Check a spreadsheet. Though I doubt wearing gear just for the sake of hit rather than dps stats will benefit. Cloak of Fiends is generally better I believe, but not by much.

Edit: Heh, was too slow!
#1759SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Apoq
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
Ex/Mong does refer to MH Executioner and OH Mongoose, which was previously believed to be the best option for high-T6 rogues. This theory has since been debunked; the currently theory is that Mong/Mong is generally going to be the way to go; however, this can't be determined for absolute certain until we know the proc rates on the 2.4 trinkets, so I'm not sure I'd rush out and start reenchanting stuff.

Regarding the second question: you should use the best gear setup available to you, regardless of where any particular stat of yours happens to wind up as a result.
I was under the assumption that with T6 rogues with Hemo specs tend to benefit more from executioner MH and mongoose OH. I think it also depends on the mob armor value.
#1760SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Ashere
Originally Posted by Apoq View Post
I was under the assumption that with T6 rogues with Hemo specs tend to benefit more from executioner MH and mongoose OH. I think it also depends on the mob armor value.
If T6 rogues worry about squeezing out some extra DPS by taking executioner on MH, then they should seriously consider speccing Combat in the first place, since T6 rogues tend to get a lot more haste, which scales better for Combat rogues then it does for hemo rogues, due to Proc per Strike mechanics on Combat Potency.
Then there's the theory that the armor penetration isn't as effective for hemo rogues, since
1) raidbosses will often already be at ~0 armor because of all the armor ignore / armor pen effects
2) hemo rogues already get an armor reducing effect from Serrated Blades to get boss armor to ~0 if it wasn't there already.
#1761SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Cryingleaf
I'm sure this has been explained before in this thread or somewhere else, but I tried searching and couldn't find anything in the sea of pages.

My question is, in the Working Theories of Theorycrafting 2.3 thread it is said that our special attacks work on a two roll system. What exactly is that system and how does it compare to other classes special abilities systems?

Sorry if I am the 943672346786312384089265th person to ask this.
#1762SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Apoq
Originally Posted by Ashere View Post
If T6 rogues worry about squeezing out some extra DPS by taking executioner on MH, then they should seriously consider speccing Combat in the first place, since T6 rogues tend to get a lot more haste, which scales better for Combat rogues then it does for hemo rogues, due to Proc per Strike mechanics on Combat Potency.
Then there's the theory that the armor penetration isn't as effective for hemo rogues, since
1) raidbosses will often already be at ~0 armor because of all the armor ignore / armor pen effects
2) hemo rogues already get an armor reducing effect from Serrated Blades to get boss armor to ~0 if it wasn't there already.
With tons of haste you run into energy cap out problems too as combat because lets say during bloodlust you procced potency 5 times in a row. I cap out alot now because of Rod of the sun king, potency and relentless proccing all at once. With my gear level the AEP calculations show haste as .94 with combat AND hemo raid specs.

Fully debuffed, with T6 and Serrated blades, I'm penetrating 6050 armor. (that includes executioner/wsc/madness averages based on the RogueDPS spreadsheet). 6200 armor is the lowest armor mob you'll see in BT/Hyjal with most bosses being 7685. Hardly pushing it to 0, but close.

There are times I've done alot better as hemo than I ever have as combat with my T6 gear.
#1763SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Hanos
Originally Posted by Apoq View Post
Fully debuffed, with T6 and Serrated blades, I'm penetrating 6050 armor. (that includes executioner/wsc/madness averages based on the RogueDPS spreadsheet). 6200 armor is the lowest armor mob you'll see in BT/Hyjal with most bosses being 7685. Hardly pushing it to 0, but close.
If only you could assume averages, instead you have to take into account the times where you will have all 3 procs up, and will effectively be wasting a proc or a portion there of.

There are times I've done alot better as hemo than I ever have as combat with my T6 gear.
I am going to assume this has to do with weapons and play style, there is no mathematical justification for how this could happen for an ideally spec'ed and geared rogue. Granted you also have things like crazy crit streaks etc, where you can get absurdly high numbers with any spec, but it isn't consistent or repeatable. With the exact same buffs/debuffs/situations, you should always do better as Combat.
#1764SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Apoq
Originally Posted by Hanos View Post
I am going to assume this has to do with weapons and play style, there is no mathematical justification for how this could happen for an ideally spec'ed and geared rogue. Granted you also have things like crazy crit streaks etc, where you can get absurdly high numbers with any spec, but it isn't consistent or repeatable. With the exact same buffs/debuffs/situations, you should always do better as Combat.

I'm not disagreeing with that, but it happens alot. I'm combat mace/sword right now but I guess I was a luckier Hemo rogue than I am as a combat rogue.

For hemo specs, it could occur that you proc all three, but how often do rogues have all three? I do but I'm only one guy and I consider myself lucky to have them. But let's say I upgraded to a DST and Shard of Contempt or Blackened Naaru sliver next patch, doesn't seem like it would be possible to cap out armor pen then.

I just hate when people make general statements like, "with full T6 and hemo you're going to be at max armor pen and most likely wasting it". Full T6 doesn't mean anything except a couple hundred passive armor pen. The only way to hit the armor pen cap now is with a fully debuffed mob with all three of those procs going at once on a typical BT boss. A portion might get wasted sure, but how many other unavoidable things can happen that get wasted?

Edit: Actually you got me thinking about hemo v/s combat and I re-looked at the WWS from last week to this week. If you're interested I'll post them. It'll show you that my white attack damage was far superior compared to being combat. Using the same gear, and no other buff differences on at least 5-6 fights in BT/Hyjal. If my white attacks do so much more damage(~100 more on average hits), then why exactly is combat better than hemo? You say mathematically it's impossible, but for some reason I put out alot more white damage as Hemo with this gear. To the point that the additional rupture damage on top of other hemo spec benefits could possibly be better.

Last edited by Apoq : 03/04/08 at 4:47 PM.
#1765SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Dontmindme
I'm going to say this from the DPS Spreadsheet perspective. Stacked Armor Pen procs is very high on the "to do" list as it's now all too possible to hit 0 armor on a boss. Assuming I don't run into the same problems I had with Windfury (where part of the spreadsheet revolted against me changing some things), I'm hoping to have to new, probability driven, Armor Pen proc model up with the next release. I've worked through a good way to do this, by building a probability table with all proccable armor pen effects and using basic actuarial theory (i.e. Bayes Theorum) to "average" the effects. By doing so, I can account for "overprocs" where the armor pen is greater than remaining armor. As an aside, I plan to do the same for Expertise as there are procs in the new patch that can bring dodge to 0.

In both cases, averages that bring one very close to 0 are going to overstate the effect. If all your procs happened to go off at once and it's enough to drop the mob below 0 armor, averages will be overstating the result to some degree (more so, the closer you get your average to 0 armor).

Normally, averages work well in the spreadsheet for proc effects. This is not the case for Armor Pen and Expertise (when the combination can take one past the cap), so I would use results while realizing there is going to be a degree of unrealized armor pen potential.

--------------

As to the two-roll system for special (yellow) attacks, it's pretty simple really.
First roll, does it hit, dodge, miss?
Second roll, does it crit?

Here's an example (maybe not so real-life) that shows why this matters.
Let's say your special attack can miss or be dodged 10% of the time and you have a 50% chance to crit.

If it were a one-roll system, you would miss/dodge 10%; hit 40%; crit 50%.

With a two-roll system, you get miss/dodge 10%; hit 90%
Check for crit 50% of that 90% is a crit, so overall you miss/dodge 10%; hit 45%; crit 45%

This is why most people's special attack crit % doesn't match the tooltip.
#1766SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Aldriana
Regarding armor procs:

Currently, the Gear sheet models Executioner and WSC as procs, but Madness of the Betrayer as an average. However, the benefit of Madness is small enough that the linear approximation is adequate so long as you don't cap out; and given that it's pretty hard to cap out without using both Executioner and WSC, and very few people use both WSC and MotB, I decided that wasn't a major issue.

It is quite possible at current itemization levels to cap out on 6200 armor bosses; Sunders + FF + CoR + WSC + Executioner is 5850 armor reduction, meaning only 350 is necessary to reduce a mob to zero - which all Hemo rogues and most T6 rogues are going to have. The interesting part of this is that capping out isn't really fundamentally a bad thing. While it's true that during the 10% of the time when both procs are up you're not getting full benefit, it's also true that the 90% of the time when they're not both up they're more powerful than they would be were you not capping out.

Of course, even given this, Executioner does not generally seem to be worth using, and I don't expect WSC to last very long once 2.4 loot comes out, which brings us back into the territory where nothing is capped. But, for the moment, capping *can* happen but it's not totally a bad thing.
#1767SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Apoq
Regarding Hemo v/s Combat

We didn't upload our WWS to the WWS site but here is our WWS archive.

Index of /wws

Specifically compare fights from 2/19/08 and 2/26/08 as I had the same gear setup and same group buffs. Notice how much higher my white damage is as hemo.

If I'm doing something wrong as combat, I'd like to know, but from the looks of it with my gear setup, hemo outperformed combat.

If you armory me, I had the same gear on with the exception of 3/5 T6 2/5 T4 until 2/27.
#1768SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Sneakiest
I've been reading through this whole hemo vs combat argument and I'm going to throw in my two cents along with a WWS log from my guild a few weeks ago.

Here's the WWS.

Buffed with Might/Kings/MOTW/Spicy Hot Talbuk/SoE/Battle Shout (with Solarian trinket), using Windfury.
Debuffs on the boss were Mangle/CoR/FF/Sunders/Blood Frenzy.

We had no enhancement shaman in the raid. The build used is the one I have right now - standard 19/42/0 with 3/5 vile.
A couple of gear changes from my current armory, I did not have DST until last Sunday; I was using Swiftstrike Bracers, as Insidious Bands dropped that very same kill. Also I didn't have +4 stats. I was using Tsunami Talisman + Ashtongue.

I also didn't have Cloak of Fiends - I was probably still using Drape of the Dark Reavers.

The sheets point at ~1823.26 DPS (set to 'caster boss' armor settings, which Teron is included in), I'm using version 2.4.0.4a.

My output for that kill was 1819 DPS. The accuracy of the sheets is amazing.

We're on similar gear levels I reckon. We have approximately the same percentage outgoing damage per skill (SS, Rupture, whatever).

I only noticed a pair of things whilst skimming through this WWS of yours as combat on Teron.

A) Your crit rate on both melee and specials is dysmal for some reason, for both melee and specials (24/16%), but this could be a parser related thing. In comparision I'm getting 38/35%. Partly it can probably be accounted to using Executioner rather than Mongoose, but still it's a 10%+ difference.

B) Your miss rate seems a bit high, 14/11% miss -- but I'm assuming this is including dodge given that 11% miss on specials makes no sense whatsoever, especially given the miss rate for specials is 9% and you're way over that (320~ hit rating from what I see on your profile), so I think it's safe to assume you got ~5% miss in reality. Still 11% dodge on a boss seems a bit too high, I think the number thrown around is 6.5-9% dodge and it makes no sense considering you have at least 10 expertise. I don't know what's up with that.

Note also that average melee hits are higher for you as you got a 100 DPS innate 2.7 speed weapon versus my Talon and a truckload of armor ignore procs. But otherwise everything in terms of scaling seems identical.

The only explanation I can think of explaning the ~200 dps difference between us (assuming the same play style) is that obscure lack of crit you have there along with that high 'failure to hit' (I wouldn't call it 'miss') rate. Why those were there, I don't know. The 2/5 tier 4 wouldn't help, but it surely wouldn't account for such a level of difference. Any ideas?
#1769SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Apoq
Originally Posted by Sneakiest View Post
I've been reading through this whole hemo vs combat argument and I'm going to throw in my two cents along with a WWS log from my guild a few weeks ago.

Here's the WWS.

Buffed with Might/Kings/MOTW/Spicy Hot Talbuk/SoE/Battle Shout (with Solarian trinket), using Windfury.
Debuffs on the boss were Mangle/CoR/FF/Sunders/Blood Frenzy.

We had no enhancement shaman in the raid. The build used is the one I have right now - standard 19/42/0 with 3/5 vile.
A couple of gear changes from my current armory, I did not have DST until last Sunday; I was using Swiftstrike Bracers, as Insidious Bands dropped that very same kill. Also I didn't have +4 stats. I was using Tsunami Talisman + Ashtongue.

I also didn't have Cloak of Fiends - I was probably still using Drape of the Dark Reavers.

The sheets point at ~1823.26 DPS (set to 'caster boss' armor settings, which Teron is included in), I'm using version 2.4.0.4a.

My output for that kill was 1819 DPS. The accuracy of the sheets is amazing.

We're on similar gear levels I reckon. We have approximately the same percentage outgoing damage per skill (SS, Rupture, whatever).

I only noticed a pair of things whilst skimming through this WWS of yours as combat on Teron.

A) Your crit rate on both melee and specials is dysmal for some reason, for both melee and specials (24/16%), but this could be a parser related thing. In comparision I'm getting 38/35%. Partly it can probably be accounted to using Executioner rather than Mongoose, but still it's a 10%+ difference.

B) Your miss rate seems a bit high, 14/11% miss -- but I'm assuming this is including dodge given that 11% miss on specials makes no sense whatsoever, especially given the miss rate for specials is 9% and you're way over that (320~ hit rating from what I see on your profile), so I think it's safe to assume you got ~5% miss in reality. Still 11% dodge on a boss seems a bit too high, I think the number thrown around is 6.5-9% dodge and it makes no sense considering you have at least 10 expertise. I don't know what's up with that.

Note also that average melee hits are higher for you as you got a 100 DPS innate 2.7 speed weapon versus my Talon and a truckload of armor ignore procs. But otherwise everything in terms of scaling seems identical.

The only explanation I can think of explaning the ~200 dps difference between us (assuming the same play style) is that obscure lack of crit you have there along with that high 'failure to hit' (I wouldn't call it 'miss') rate. Why those were there, I don't know. The 2/5 tier 4 wouldn't help, but it surely wouldn't account for such a level of difference. Any ideas?
The DPS number isn't really the point I'm trying to make. Look at the average white hit for hemo v/s white hit for combat.

The abnormal miss rate was a client/server lag I was told, behind him enough to garrote, but close enough to him from behind to get parries. 44 parries on that particular fight.

But again, not really the main point. I do 100 more damage on white hits for 150 landed and my white crits were on average 50 more too. Then add double the rupture damage.
#1770SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Danen3
Ok...so overall the general consensus is that double mongoose is better then Executioner MH/Mongoose OH?
#1771SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 AtADeadRun
Originally Posted by Danen3 View Post
Ok...so overall the general consensus is that double mongoose is better then Executioner MH/Mongoose OH?
The spreadsheet knows all. Short version: yes.
#1772SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Sneakiest
Originally Posted by Apoq View Post
The DPS number isn't really the point I'm trying to make. Look at the average white hit for hemo v/s white hit for combat.

The abnormal miss rate was a client/server lag I was told, behind him enough to garrote, but close enough to him from behind to get parries. 44 parries on that particular fight.

But again, not really the main point. I do 100 more damage on white hits for 150 landed and my white crits were on average 50 more too. Then add double the rupture damage.
Well yes, of course, if we're talking about Shadowstep and not 11/28/22 then I'd say that's easily predictable. 560 armor ignore on top of whatever your gear has, 1.10 * AP from yourself and any buff, ~ 1.39 * your Agility in attack power raid buffed, ridiculously scaling your AP, of course white main-hand damage will go through the roof. All combat gets is 1.02 * Agility. I just don't see where you're going with this.

I was just pointing out you also don't seem to be doing as well as combat as you should - at least on that fight - given you're stating you do better as hemo often. I could be wrong, since this may be raid buff related, but I'm just pointing out you should be doing higher as combat rather than on par, if not worse. I just tried to come up with an explanation as to why you would be doing as good as hemo.

But yes, of course in practise sheets can't compare the two unless it's sustained damage.

EDIT: I don't mean to come off as rude, mind you. I'm just trying to understand what's the whole point of the discussion. Also in regards to being simultaneously in front/behind - aside from when the mobs turn to cast something (like Teron and his mark), I think you can avoid the situation by sitting at max melee range.

Last edited by Sneakiest : 03/05/08 at 4:58 AM.
#1773SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Left
Originally Posted by Apoq View Post
The DPS number isn't really the point I'm trying to make. Look at the average white hit for hemo v/s white hit for combat.

The abnormal miss rate was a client/server lag I was told, behind him enough to garrote, but close enough to him from behind to get parries. 44 parries on that particular fight.

But again, not really the main point. I do 100 more damage on white hits for 150 landed and my white crits were on average 50 more too. Then add double the rupture damage.
The 560 armor penn. from Serrated Blades is what causes this difference (as well as the AP boost if you run 11/21/29). The question I have is this: did you get more white damage overall than combat, or just more per hit? More per hit makes sense, as with a Hemo spec your white hits will hit harder. For 11/28/22, there should be approximately the same number of white hits for a Hemo build and a Combat Swords build, as both will have Sword Spec. Thus, CSwords vs. 11/28/22, I expect Hemo to exhibit more white and Combat more yellow. For 11/21/29 Hemo, you lose a bunch of white hits from sword spec, and therefore CSwords should have more white hits, and perhaps a little more white damage, overall.

Almost all combat talents in the bottom end of the tree (AR, Aggression, Combat Potency, Surprise Attacks) increase only yellow damage. In addition, CSwords gets Lethality and poison talents where Hemo doesn't. 11/28/22 Hemo picks up all the same white damage boosters, though, plus Serrated Blades. And let's not forget the Hemo debuff itself! It makes sense that white damage is going to be higher with Hemo+Swords, but you lose a good bit of yellow in the process.
#1774SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Hanos
Originally Posted by Apoq View Post
For hemo specs, it could occur that you proc all three, but how often do rogues have all three? I do but I'm only one guy and I consider myself lucky to have them. But let's say I upgraded to a DST and Shard of Contempt or Blackened Naaru sliver next patch, doesn't seem like it would be possible to cap out armor pen then.
Check out my armory :-)

I just hate when people make general statements like, "with full T6 and hemo you're going to be at max armor pen and most likely wasting it". Full T6 doesn't mean anything except a couple hundred passive armor pen. The only way to hit the armor pen cap now is with a fully debuffed mob with all three of those procs going at once on a typical BT boss. A portion might get wasted sure, but how many other unavoidable things can happen that get wasted?
In my case: Shoulders, Gloves, 2 Rings, and potentially the ZA Bow, so well over 600 Passive, although I would use the Al'ar gun if I would have bothered to pick it up...

Edit: Actually you got me thinking about hemo v/s combat and I re-looked at the WWS from last week to this week. If you're interested I'll post them. It'll show you that my white attack damage was far superior compared to being combat. Using the same gear, and no other buff differences on at least 5-6 fights in BT/Hyjal. If my white attacks do so much more damage(~100 more on average hits), then why exactly is combat better than hemo? You say mathematically it's impossible, but for some reason I put out alot more white damage as Hemo with this gear. To the point that the additional rupture damage on top of other hemo spec benefits could possibly be better.
For Tri-Spec that makes sense, you still have the same set bonuses, you don't attack any faster with Combat (except during BF), and you have Duel-Wield and Precision, so the only difference for white damage is you now have more AP (Assuming you picked up Deadliness) and Serrated Blades, so yes, your auto-attacks are going to hit for a good bit more, and I had the same experience where my white damage was higher, and it was a higher percentage of my total damage.

Regarding Hemo, I seem to remember getting more damage per tick, but less ticks due to longer cycles. Basically Combat is better due to the controlled burst, you do more yellow damage with Combat, you can chain cooldowns, and generally your DPS will be higher.

The best comparison I can find is Kaz'rogal because of lack of variability:
WWS
http://www.en-raptured.com/wws/archive/2008-02/2008-02-19_Kaz'rogal/apoq.html

You do slightly more DPS as Combat, but it might help if you can pull 2 fights that you feel are very similar, but generally on a tank and spank fight, Tri-Spec (especially Mace/Sword) will come very close 1-2% of Combat (Mace/Sword), to the point where the RNG will have a larger effect then your spec. The lack of burst/chaining potential is where you can fall behind Combat, especially on fights where you aren't in combat the entire time.

Originally Posted by Apoq View Post
The DPS number isn't really the point I'm trying to make. Look at the average white hit for hemo v/s white hit for combat.

The abnormal miss rate was a client/server lag I was told, behind him enough to garrote, but close enough to him from behind to get parries. 44 parries on that particular fight.

But again, not really the main point. I do 100 more damage on white hits for 150 landed and my white crits were on average 50 more too. Then add double the rupture damage.
White hits will be for more for the reason I explained above, as will your total white damage because BF is less of a gain for white damage then Serrated Blades and the additional AP from Deadliness. As for Rupture, I would imagine it ticks for a decent amount more, but you should be seeing less total ticks, and you shouldn't be seeing anywhere close to 100% more, maybe 50% more, but that is a stretch... and that is 50% more on 5% of your damage.

Originally Posted by Left View Post
The 560 armor penn. from Serrated Blades is what causes this difference (as well as the AP boost if you run 11/21/29). The question I have is this: did you get more white damage overall than combat, or just more per hit? More per hit makes sense, as with a Hemo spec your white hits will hit harder. For 11/28/22, there should be approximately the same number of white hits for a Hemo build and a Combat Swords build, as both will have Sword Spec. Thus, CSwords vs. 11/28/22, I expect Hemo to exhibit more white and Combat more yellow. For 11/21/29 Hemo, you lose a bunch of white hits from sword spec, and therefore CSwords should have more white hits, and perhaps a little more white damage, overall.

Almost all combat talents in the bottom end of the tree (AR, Aggression, Combat Potency, Surprise Attacks) increase only yellow damage. In addition, CSwords gets Lethality and poison talents where Hemo doesn't. 11/28/22 Hemo picks up all the same white damage boosters, though, plus Serrated Blades. And let's not forget the Hemo debuff itself! It makes sense that white damage is going to be higher with Hemo+Swords, but you lose a good bit of yellow in the process.
Exactly.
#1775SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
 Golijov
@Hanos
Just wanted to point out a minor mistake in your gear suggestion post. Talon of Azshara is actually better than Blade of Infamy due to speed and stat allocation.
Edit: Also, the WWS you listed does not make for a good hemo vs combat comparison due to the drastic differences in gear between the two rogues.

Last edited by Golijov : 03/05/08 at 12:26 PM.
#1776SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Arindelest
Originally Posted by Golijov View Post
@Hanos
Just wanted to point out a minor mistake in your gear suggestion post. Talon of Azshara is actually better than Blade of Infamy due to speed and stat allocation.
Edit: Also, the WWS you listed does not make for a good hemo vs combat comparison due to the drastic differences in gear between the two rogues.
Incorrect. BoI > Talon of Azshara. Check the spreadsheet.
#1777SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Aldriana
Originally Posted by Golijov View Post
@Hanos
Just wanted to point out a minor mistake in your gear suggestion post. Talon of Azshara is actually better than Blade of Infamy due to speed and stat allocation.
I might suggest that you provide evidence to support such claims, as conventional wisdom and at least the Gear spreadsheet (I can't swear to the DPS sheet) have Infamy > Talon. Yes, Infamy is somewhat poorly itemized relative to Talon, but it's higher ilvl so has a larger stat budget and a higher base damage; this advantage is eroded by it's poor itemization, but it still scores 10-20 AP ahead of Talon for most rogues.
#1778SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Hanos
Originally Posted by Golijov View Post
@Hanos
Just wanted to point out a minor mistake in your gear suggestion post. Talon of Azshara is actually better than Blade of Infamy due to speed and stat allocation.
Edit: Also, the WWS you listed does not make for a good hemo vs combat comparison due to the drastic differences in gear between the two rogues.
I was comparing Apoq's damage on Kaz'rogal in 2 different parses. He stated himself that his gear didn't change significantly.... so not sure what the hell you are talking about.

Also, as others pointed out... your wrong on the Talon > BoI part, if attacks weren't normalized Talon might be better, but since even Hemo is normalized, all signs point to BoI being better even with the horrible itemization. Right now MH Swords: Warglaive > Muramasa > S3 > BoI > Talon at a High End T6 Gear Level.
#1779SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Garetjax
Originally Posted by Bael View Post
Does this apply even when Windfury is unavailable?

We are low on raiding shamans and typically rely on poisons; I've always used Deadly Mainhand, Instant Offhand in the (perhaps mistaken) belief that the faster attack speed of my offhand will generate more poison applications. Does factoring in the extra hits of Sinister Strike/Sword Specialisation outweigh the faster speed? Windfury being unavailable, is it worth applying Instant to the mainhand instead?

If so, at what point in the discrepancy between mainhand-offhand speeds are you more likely to achieve a higher rate of Instant procs with the offhand?
Although there is little dps difference between I/DP and DP/I, I prefer the DP on OH because I have control over keeping DP on with a quick shiv (I wait until the last 2 sec to see if it will proc. I with a 1.47 speed OH I have that leaves me with a pretty good estimate that DP will not proc on normal swings so I throw a shiv in to make sure it is on. Also, on the bosses that knock you around (i.e. Gruul) I have the option to stack DP before I get knocked back).
#1780SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Shonuf
I have a question about this write-up.

Am I wrong in thinking this is geared more towards a Rogue that is on a raid? What I mean is, alot of the descriptions of ability cycles, etc refer to using Rupture over Evis.

When PvE'ing, solo, regular World Mobs... Is Rupture still better than Evis? Considering how long they live, would Rupture really do all that greater DPS than Evis?

I'm just a little confused.
#1781SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Watcher
I have a question about calculating an EP value of Band of the Eternal Champion. My question is how to calculate EP on the chance to Increase AP by 160. Assuming a CD of hidden cd of ability of 1 minute (not sure about this) and that CD starts counting down upon proc. I have EP for that calculation as 160 * 10sec/60 sec = 26.67 avg EP

So Far, I've used the EP values you litsted in t6 quality sword spec

Band of Eternal Champion
29 Agi= 29*1.9*1.1=60.61 EP
43 Stam= 0 EP
+60 AP= 60 EP
Chance on hit increase AP by 160 for 10 Sec=160 * 10/60 = 26.67

The EP total I calculated is 147.28, assuming 1 minute hidden CD on proc. Do you all agree?
#1782SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Left
Originally Posted by Shonuf View Post
I have a question about this write-up.

Am I wrong in thinking this is geared more towards a Rogue that is on a raid? What I mean is, alot of the descriptions of ability cycles, etc refer to using Rupture over Evis.

When PvE'ing, solo, regular World Mobs... Is Rupture still better than Evis? Considering how long they live, would Rupture really do all that greater DPS than Evis?

I'm just a little confused.
Yes, this guide is for DPS as a raiding rogue. Solo content is different, due to mobs dieing faster, the need to itemize to not only DPS but also stay alive, the fact that you are either attacking from the front or employing crowd control, and the fact that you won't have buffs. In other words, it's a different ball game.

However, most of the posters here are far past worrying about solo play.
#1783SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Aldriana
Originally Posted by Watcher View Post
I have a question about calculating an EP value of Band of the Eternal Champion. My question is how to calculate EP on the chance to Increase AP by 160. Assuming a CD of hidden cd of ability of 1 minute (not sure about this) and that CD starts counting down upon proc. I have EP for that calculation as 160 * 10sec/60 sec = 26.67 avg EP

So Far, I've used the EP values you litsted in t6 quality sword spec

Band of Eternal Champion
29 Agi= 29*1.9*1.1=60.61 EP
43 Stam= 0 EP
+60 AP= 60 EP
Chance on hit increase AP by 160 for 10 Sec=160 * 10/60 = 26.67

The EP total I calculated is 147.28, assuming 1 minute hidden CD on proc. Do you all agree?
Nope.

The cooldown is 60 seconds, but it doesn't necessarily proc the instant the cooldown is up; you have to factor in the expected time to proc after the cooldown is up to get the right answer.

I believe for most rogues the actual benefit of the proc is closer to 20 AP; for additional details, consult your favorite spreadsheet.
#1784SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Shonuf
Yes, this guide is for DPS as a raiding rogue. Solo content is different, due to mobs dieing faster, the need to itemize to not only DPS but also stay alive, the fact that you are either attacking from the front or employing crowd control, and the fact that you won't have buffs. In other words, it's a different ball game.

However, most of the posters here are far past worrying about solo play.
Gotcha. I just wanted to make sure. I haven't made it to that point yet.
#1785SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3dinesh
Murder vs. alternatives in Combat Swords or Fist/Sword

I currently have the two S2 arena swords, and my guild is just finishing up with SSC/TK. Morogrim has not been kind to me, but I did just pick up Talon of the Phoenix from Al'ar. Since I am going to respec to Fist/Swords until I can get my hands on a Blade of Infamy, I figured I would also take the opportunity to respec out of Murder, since I am about to head to MH/BT almost exclusively.

I know I remember a significant discussion about Murder, but since I can't figured out how to get the EJ search to direct me to a specific post in 50+ page threads (I think the discussion was in either Rogue Gear or Roguecraft 101), I haven't been able to track it down exactly. Using google I did find a few discussions about Murder, but they were largely dealing with dagger builds and whether to take Murder or Ruthlessness or Lethality.

So, here are my questions, none of which are answered on page 1 as far as I can tell, and none of which are just "check the spreadsheet" questions (since the spreadsheets don't model the percentage of mobs murder actually works for). While I do do weekly arena, it is purely for raid gear, so I am interested only in full on max raid spec:

1- Am I just being a moron, and is there a way to link to the specific posts containing your search terms from the EJ search/advanced search?

2- Page 1 lists two sample builds, one for CSwords, and one for Fist/Sword. Both include 2 points in murder. Assuming one were about to head into MH/BT, would a modification be recommended? If so, I can't figure out exactly what the tradeoff would be into. All the threads I found talked about Ruthlessness or Lethality, but I already have those maxed out (my proposed build here: http://www.wowhead.com/?talent=fbe0oxZMIV0bVzEMGot ). As far as I can tell, my only other option is to stick them into Imp. Evis. Is that really the only other choice, and if so is it really worth it, even in MH/BT?

3- While I'm here, perhaps someone can explain to me why Imp. Gouge is in these sample builds. Does it have some PvE utility I am not aware of, or is it just a filler PvP talent? I pull aggro infrequently, but when I do I'd rather have the 3% extra dodge, frankly.

4- Similar question for Nerves of Steel. I remember being trained long ago that you don't want to be the only guy not feared by a boss, but nowadays the tank is rarely ever feared in my experience. Does this ability and its increase to time on target outweigh the last 2 points in Lethality?

5- Should this info be helpful for anyone else moving from T5 to T6 content, perhaps I might suggest a small paragraph re: murder on the first page post.
#1786SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Shaker
The only build Murder is a real question for is builds that swap those points into Imp Backstab, you don't have a ton of options as combat swords, or x/sword hybrids.
#1787SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Aldriana
Combat builds take Murder since there's really nothing else. You'll be eviscerating even less often than you're benefiting from Murder, and it's a smaller damage increase - hence, just take Murder.

Imp Gouge is because some people like it as filler over Lightning Reflexes, as it's marginally more useful for farming and PvP. I personally prefer the dodge from Lightning Reflexes, but as neither is a DPS talent there's really no wrong answer.

Nerves of Steel is a perfectly good talent, although it doesn't really come up very often (Archimonde and Kaz'rogal are the only places that come to mind)... but again, it's not a damage talent, so there's little reason to swap out for it; as hybrid sword/fist, there's not a lot of room in the talent build to get it. As straight swords you can put one point in it, but the merit of that one point versus, say, Endurance can be debated.
#1788SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Latito
1 - You can search by Thread or search by Post. Not sure if thats exactly what you were looking for, but possibly.

2 - Your alternatives to Murder are as follows:
-Imp Evis (used 0 to 2 times per fight and sometimes on trash), 10% increase to ~1% of your dmg
-Remorseless Attacks (useful only on bosses where you get the killing blow on some add), essentially useless
-Imp Backstab (considering you don't wield a dagger...), useless
-Murder (only effective on Najentus, Bloodboil and.. Council?), 2% increase on 3 of 14 bosses

None of these are really all that useful, I'd pick Murder since it is a bigger increase in dps overall even in BT/Hyjal and gets the added benefit of having a higher "uptime" in other instances.

3 - Purely a utility thing. I get the dodge myself as I can't remember the last time I gouged while raiding. Well, maybe gouge to interrupt a cast if Kick and Kidney were on CD.. but then I'm just gouging for an interrupt, not for the duration.

4 - Nothing *wrong* with nerves of steel, in that it will no longer risk you getting gibbed. Bosses will now follow a tank even if the tank is feared. This happened right around the patch where alliance lost perma-fear-ward. Not that a tank wants to be attacked (from behind) while feared.. but at least the boss isn't on you.

That said, its really only useful on maybe 2-3 fights. Leathality is a superior choice.

5 - Up to Vulajin..


Note: If you are arena'ing every week, can you not get the S3 weapons? Does Talon of the Phoenix come out ahead of the S2 sword for your gear?
#1789SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3dinesh
Thanks for the feedback, all.

Originally Posted by Latito View Post
Note: If you are arena'ing every week, can you not get the S3 weapons? Does Talon of the Phoenix come out ahead of the S2 sword for your gear?
Me and an 1850 rating are not on speaking terms.

And yes, the talon/fist-sword build is an approximately 5-10 dps upgrade over S2/sword-sword, depending on the spreadsheet used.
#1790SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Snus
I have been reading through the thread several times looking to compare the new Vanir fist MH coming in 2.4. Right now I use S1 swords, and I'm trying to figure out if the fist weapon is an improvement over S2 Sword and the S3 sword. I have a basic understanding of Excel, but I can't figure out how to add a weapon's data to the spreadsheet. Is there a more recent version of the sheet that is updated for the new 2.4 Badge loot? Or a way to input the new gear myself? Right now I have version 0.9.4. Thanks

Edit: Nevermind! I found version 0.9.5 (beta). As a suggestion, there should be a link to download that workbook on the main thread of Rogue Gear Spreadsheet

Last edited by Snus : 03/06/08 at 7:19 AM. Reason: Found the answer on my own
#1791SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Fya
The Rogue DPS spreadsheet has been updated for 2.4 badge gear. As of last night it was 2.4.0.4a was looking to see how the badge Breastplate stacked up against the Kara BP and S3 BP.


also on this sheet you have the ability to add gear that maybe listed by going down to row 143 on the Gear_DPS tab.


allI have to say is I have been learning a lot more about raiding as a rogue by reading this stuff. Thanks to everyone
#1792SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3dinesh
Originally Posted by Latito View Post
1 - You can search by Thread or search by Post. Not sure if thats exactly what you were looking for, but possibly.
Also, thanks for this. I don't know how I missed that option.

If only I had known this, I might not have even had to post. Here are two additional posts which help answer my main questions above:

Rogue Gear Spreadsheet

[Rogue] Best Combat Sword PvE spec?
#1793SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Apoq
Originally Posted by Hanos View Post
White hits will be for more for the reason I explained above, as will your total white damage because BF is less of a gain for white damage then Serrated Blades and the additional AP from Deadliness. As for Rupture, I would imagine it ticks for a decent amount more, but you should be seeing less total ticks, and you shouldn't be seeing anywhere close to 100% more, maybe 50% more, but that is a stretch... and that is 50% more on 5% of your damage.
I'm 11/21/29 with blade flurry in that hemo WWS. The point I was trying to make was, if 65% of my damage is white attacks, and I do 80-100 more on average per attack, on top of more rupture damage, why is it that the spreadsheets show hemo as being 100-120 dps less than combat?

I know there's a checkbox in the rogue DPS spreadsheet for hemo debuff estimate, but isn't that adding all the charges(total raid damage added) into it?

Look at the WWS, I have maybe 10-15k more SS damage per fight than I do Hemo damage, but my white attacks and total rupture damage more than make up for it.

As far as Mace/Sword spec, it's on par with sword/sword spec and largely based on itemization. Already stated earlier in this thread...

Originally Posted by Dontmindme View Post
Well, let's look at this...
What's the difference between Sword/Sword and Mace/Sword?
First, we have 5 talent points in favor of Sword/Sword.

Let's look at damage:
Mace/Sword loses 5% extra MH attacks that proc MH attacks.
But gains 5% extra damage on all crits (that is multiplied by all crit multipliers) and also includes specials.

It might be possible especially with the high crit rates at top itemization. I was using an old version of the spreadsheet that showed a decline. Current version looks to agree with what you've said. Be interesting to see how this looks on the Gear sheet with those changes.
#1794SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Left
Originally Posted by Apoq View Post
I'm 11/21/29 with blade flurry in that hemo WWS. The point I was trying to make was, if 65% of my damage is white attacks, and I do 80-100 more on average per attack, on top of more rupture damage, why is it that the spreadsheets show hemo as being 100-120 dps less than combat?
I looked at several fights. Honestly, it's a bit hard to compare them because you seem to have had slightly faster kills on the raid you were combat spec, so I can't look easily at overall damage. You are definitely hitting harder as Hemo, due to the armor ignore. Your sinister strike crits are hitting harder than hemo crits, due to Lethality. Oddly, hemo and ss hits are really about the same. You are dealing more rupture damage per tick with hemo (as expected), but I feel like you are getting a few more ticks in per unit time with combat. You also seem to get more SSs in per unit time than hemos, again as expected.

Take a look at the following comparisons, for example...

Kazrogal
Combat WWS vs. Hemo WWS

Najentus
Combat WWS vs. Hemo WWS

On Najentus, as combat you get 67 Rupture ticks over 3.86 minutes, or 17 ticks per minute. As hemo you get 77 Rupture ticks over 4.77 minutes, or 16 ticks per minute. Overall, it's advantage hemo, though, since you get 1/3 more rupture damage. However, on Kazrogal, in 2.71 minutes you get 47 Rupture ticks (17 per minute) as combat; but got in an extra rupture as Hemo for 56 ticks over 2.81 minutes (~20 per minute). Luck of timing, I guess.

On both fights you get significantly more instants per unit time as combat, and your instant crits hit harder. I really think that makes up the differences in white DPS and rupture damage.

I would have looked at Gorefiend too, except you had that weird parry problem. But all in all you are recorded as ~100 DPS down in the Hemo spec, even in top-end gear. That's about 6-7% down from combat, which is where the spreadsheet would put you. Seems reasonable to me.
#1795SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Amagnus
I have a rogue in our guild who is insistent that the white damage and crit increase available through [Adamantite Sharpening Stone] is superior to Windfury on the MH weapon. Everything that I've read here suggests that:

Windfury>IP+GOA>Adamantite Sharpening Stone

Is there any situation/build where this is not true?

Thanks.
#1796SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3saedo
Originally Posted by Amagnus View Post
I have a rogue in our guild who is insistent that the white damage and crit increase available through [Adamantite Sharpening Stone] is superior to Windfury on the MH weapon. Everything that I've read here suggests that:

Windfury>IP+GOA>Adamantite Sharpening Stone

Is there any situation/build where this is not true?

Thanks.

Only when there's no shaman + non-poisonable mob (ie Hydross/VR).
#1797SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Stabmaster
Originally Posted by saedo View Post
Only when there's no shaman + non-poisonable mob (ie Hydross/VR).
Yep, in the general case, he's flat-out wrong.

IIRC, Instant Poison > the stone in the case where you have a poisonable mob and no WF. The only time you want to use stones is on unpoisonable mobs, and only on the OH, unless you have no WF in which case do the MH too.
#1798SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Marvie
Quick question about gemming, I scanned through the pages of this thread and didn't see this question asked, forgive me if I missed it but I am a bit tired.

So, everyone says that 8Agi > 16AP but nobody can tell me why. Is the small amount of crit gained from an 8agi gem worth the loss of 8ap? Is dodge weighed into this at all? I'm sure Kings buff plays some role but I still don't see the benefit.

Basically looking for a mathematically inclined person to show me the numbers of why 8Agi > 16AP.
#1799SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Aldriana
The numbers are in the spreadsheets; refer to either for details. In terms of a short version: kings does indeed play a large role; for a raid-buffed rogue without kings, they tend to be pretty close in raw damage output; with Kings, 8 agi is thus ~10% ahead. This is due to the .2% crit granted by an 8 agi gem, which, assuming a reasonable weapon damage and AP, surpasses the damage done by 8 AP. The dodge is not generally factored into that calculation other than to say "it does equal or superior damage, and *also* gives dodge - why wouldn't you use it?"
#1800SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Shaker
Consult your local spreadsheet for EAP values, and you'll find that in a majority of cases, 1.1 agility is worth more than 2 attack power. So yes, this often carries the 'with kings' modifier, but in either the DPS sheet or the Gear sheet, you can turn off Blessing of Kings to compare numbers as well.
#1801SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
glowacks
How good the bonus crit from 1 Agility is depends heavily on the rest of your stats. If you had 1000 Agility and no bonus attack power, you'd likely benefit from converting some of that agility to AP so that when you crit you do more damage. Since there is a ton of gear with Agility and Crit rating as you're leveling and relatively little with massive amounts of AP, at lower gear levels 2 AP is better than 1 Agi. But once you start to get any reasonable amount of level 70 purple gear and can expect BoK, Agility becomes better. Of note, with my fresh 70 gear of mainly quest rewards and crafted Fel Leather, 2 AP was also better than 1 hit rating according to spreadsheets. However, once you start getting purples, Hit rating and then Agility are better stats. It's very difficult to show the math behind how the crit from 1 Agility is generally worth more than 1 AP, but that's what the Spreadsheets are for, and they can show you what the best setup is for your particular gear level.

Last edited by glowacks : 03/06/08 at 8:16 PM.
#1802SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Danen3
---

Last edited by Danen3 : 03/08/08 at 6:14 AM.
#1803SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Marvie
Originally Posted by glowacks View Post
How good the bonus crit from 1 Agility is depends heavily on the rest of your stats. If you had 1000 Agility and no bonus attack power, you'd likely benefit from converting some of that agility to AP so that when you crit you do more damage. Since there is a ton of gear with Agility and Crit rating as you're leveling and relatively little with massive amounts of AP, at lower gear levels 2 AP is better than 1 Agi. But once you start to get any reasonable amount of level 70 purple gear and can expect BoK, Agility becomes better. Of note, with my fresh 70 gear of mainly quest rewards and crafted Fel Leather, 2 AP was also better than 1 hit rating according to spreadsheets. However, once you start getting purples, Hit rating and then Agility are better stats. It's very difficult to show the math behind how the crit from 1 Agility is generally worth more than 1 AP, but that's what the Spreadsheets are for, and they can show you what the best setup is for your particular gear level.
Thanks to the three previous posters, much appreciated.
#1804SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Jamu
<removed by Jamu due to incorrect assumptions>

Last edited by Jamu : 03/07/08 at 11:21 AM. Reason: Incorrect info on Hemo being removed... see responses below for pointer to valid discussion.
#1805SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Jamu
<incorrect assumptions on hemo removed by Jamu - again, see below responses for link to a better (albeit slightly flame-ridden at points) thread>

Last edited by Jamu : 03/07/08 at 11:26 AM. Reason: *doh*
#1806SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 astearns
Originally Posted by Jamu View Post
This means that hemo is *very* powerful at lower raiding levels, but loses effectiveness at higher gear levels.
So you mean to say that the prevailing theory based on much-more-accurate spreadsheet work is also supported by your own anecdotal evidence and estimations that leave out a lot of the details the spreadsheets cover? Thanks!
#1807SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Jamu
Look at the spec info on the first page, the places where it says "such and such a spec is has x% lower personal dps than combat swords". If you accept that this was done by people using the spreadsheets correctly, then my theory is valid.

A T6 combat swords rogue can do 1800dps. This is a number that is reasonable and has been shown here in the thread. That same rogue, spec'd for hemo swords, would have a *personal* dps of 1693 (1800 x [1 - .0593]). The question becomes how much the hemo debuff adds to the entire raid.

If 8 debuffs are used, and the rogue's hit is about 250, the contribution will be 78dps, for a total of 1771dps. If 9 bebuffs are used, the contribution will be 87dps, or a total of 1780 raid dps. If all 10 are used... 1789dps. This means that hemo swords can be within .5%-1.5% of combat swords at the highest level. Bump hit to 300, and you'll get a few more hemo hits... and the gap closes even more.

As stated on the main intro to this thread: "In a 25-man raid, the Hemo debuff may contribute a substantial chunk of raid DPS, such that one Hemo rogue in the raid may make up for his loss of personal DPS."

This does not contradict the theorycrafting here in any way. This merely shows how the hemo debuff will contribute to raid dps (which is something I have NOT seen in the spreadsheets or in the discussions).

Last edited by Jamu : 03/06/08 at 11:11 PM.
#1808SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Aldriana
I guess I'm not really seeing your point. You're basically asserting that TSH is a reasonable alternative to Combat Swords - which has been well established. It's perhaps a bit better at T4 levels of gear, and a bit behind at T6 levels of gear. I'm sure if you search around you can find this assertion any number of times within these forums. So dare I ask what new and revolutionary about your findings that warranted 2 posts to explain it?
#1809SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3mellowmarshall
jeeze, take it easy on him.

you guys are a bunch of elitist jerks.
#1810SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Jamu
Mellowmarhsall - hehe...

Aldriana - to answer your question, I posted my findings here as I have not seen anything on this site or other boards that actually provides numbers or evidence to support or disprove the worth of hemo in a raid. On this site, the only reference to the discussion taking place is the vague memo on the spec ranking that states "the Hemo debuff may contribute a substantial chunk of raid DPS, such that one Hemo rogue in the raid may make up for his loss of personal DPS". On other sites, mention hemo and you get droves of combat rogues shouting "stfu" or, if they're feeling nice, "show me your damage meters" (and with hemo, since it doesn't add to your personal dps, it'll never show on your damage meters - all people will see is that the personal hemo dps is lower than a combat spec, which we already know).

Either way, there isn't solid info to suggest one way or the other the value of hemo builds compared to others. I have simply offered one possible explanation to answer that question, and I posted it here because the people who understand the class mechanics the best are here - and they can either confirm or deny what I have suggested.

Regarding your comment that "perhaps it's better at the T4 level"... Take a closer look at the numbers. Hemo fists/maces are competetive and a viable alternative up through the full T5 level (hemo maces is only 3% or so behind combat swords at the 1500dps level - that's nothing to sneeze at for what is, hands down, the worst hemo spec!). Hemo swords is better than Combat swords at T5 and lower, and highly competetive at T6 (within 1% or so of combat spec dps, and depending on how many hemo debuffs get used, may actually be slightly ahead of combat swords in overall raid dps contribution).

What does this mean? More options for rogues who happen to get a great fist (like Rage from ZA) or mace (like me, who made the mistake of grabbing the Merc Glad mace for PvP and then ended up raiding). And hopefully, a bit clearer understanding of what hemo can (and can't) do.

As for the length of my posts... my appologies. I tend to get long winded. A tragic failing of actually doing what my professors demanded in the past - explain things in excrutiating detail.
#1811SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
 Aldriana
Well, my point was not that it is or isn't comparable at T5; what I was trying to assert was that it's a bit ahead (maybe) at T4, loses some ground in T5 (but may or may not rival swords), and by T6 has fallen behind.

I mean, let me be clear: I'm not trying to discourage you from posting your thoughts and ideas; your tone just struck me as a bit pompous - "I just had this brilliant realization, and you're all going to think I'm crazy, but this is a revolutionary new thing that will change the world" (okay, I exaggerate, but, you get the idea). I also think it could probably have been one post rather than two, but... whatever. We're splitting hairs.

If you're interested in a longer-winded analysis of the pros and cons of the various specs, with detailed numbers taken from the spreadsheets and more discussion than you could ever want of deep-sub specs, I'd take a look at this thread, which unfortunately turned sort of flame-ish in the last 10-20 pages, but still has some good content in it.

Last edited by Aldriana : 03/07/08 at 3:18 AM.
#1812SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
aleyro
Originally Posted by Jamu View Post
Aldriana - to answer your question, I posted my findings here as I have not seen anything on this site or other boards that actually provides numbers or evidence to support or disprove the worth of hemo in a raid. On this site, the only reference to the discussion taking place is the vague memo on the spec ranking that states "the Hemo debuff may contribute a substantial chunk of raid DPS, such that one Hemo rogue in the raid may make up for his loss of personal DPS". On other sites, mention hemo and you get droves of combat rogues shouting "stfu" or, if they're feeling nice, "show me your damage meters" (and with hemo, since it doesn't add to your personal dps, it'll never show on your damage meters - all people will see is that the personal hemo dps is lower than a combat spec, which we already know).

Either way, there isn't solid info to suggest one way or the other the value of hemo builds compared to others. I have simply offered one possible explanation to answer that question, and I posted it here because the people who understand the class mechanics the best are here - and they can either confirm or deny what I have suggested.
I guess the 1,640 posts in this thread (http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t14321-r...emo+inflection) don't count as solid info to suggest the value of hemo in comparison to other builds?

I *promise*, the merit of hemo has been very, very carefully considered. And, though it may be more fun, or though it might take great advantage of a particular drop, it simply will not consistently produce higher DPS than combat swords, using the exact same gear/gems/enchants/buffs/group composition.

Do have fun with your hemo build. Don't come here and try to convince folks that your hemo build is better than combat swords.

Last edited by aleyro : 03/07/08 at 3:11 AM. Reason: zomg, beaten to the punch by the OP.
#1813SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Jamu
My thanks to both aleyro and adlriana for the pointer to the hemo thread - I'm not sure how the hell I missed it in the last few months searching for info, as it would have saved one heck of a lot of time to just read it. If I might suggest that a link to this thread be added to the dps rankings on the intro, it would be very useful.

And my appologies if I came off a bit "pompous" or such - I was expecting a bit of a flame fest for suggesting that hemo specs can get near combat. Speaking of which...

Originally Posted by aleyro View Post
Do have fun with your hemo build. Don't come here and try to convince folks that your hemo build is better than combat swords.
I'm running hemo maces, which most certainly won't match combat swords at the T5+ range, and is very much coming to the end of its usefulness now (ZA Talonblade OH in the bank... waiting for Tidewalker to cough up so I can go over to swords). It still is amazingly competetive (moreso than the personal dps hits on the intro suggest). Now hemo swords? That's a different matter entirely...

<ducks for cover>

Anywho, on the theorycrafting side, what I gleaned from a quick scan of the hemo thread is that the spreadsheets using hemo assume all hemo debuffs will be used. Is this still the case? Also, is hit rating used to calc the number of hemo hits (and hence, number of debuffs) that will actually end up on the boss?

(Yes, I'm grasping at straws, hoping some small amount of the time I spent puzzling over hemo might actually end up being useful. If not... all I've done is wasted forum space blowing a lot of hot air and beating a dead horse... :P)
#1814SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3CoroHD
I hate to further burst your bubble, but wouldn't hemo also scale worse with raid haste buffs like Heroism/Bloodlust and Drums of Battle or personal haste buffs like a haste pot? Sure, heroism/bloodlust would guarantee that 10 hemo debuffs be used up, but I would imagine a 30 second 30% increase in the number of combat potency and sword spec proc's would outweigh that by a decent margin, and the same could be inferred for the drums and haste pot.
#1815SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Aldriana
So, there's sort of two fundamentally different TSH builds - 11/21/29, and 11/28/22. The first works with any weapon - maces, swords, fists... doesn't matter. The second is, as I recall perhaps just slightly better when done with swords and inferior otherwise.

Now, with the right weapons, itemization, blah blah blah you can prolong your utility as Hemo a bit; but in the end, that's all you're really doing, prolonging it. It's a perfectly good spec for one person to use, particularly in T4/T5 type raids, but by T6, and certainly by Sunwell it's just not going to fly. Hence my advice would be, more or less, "enjoy it while it lasts". If it's fine for you at the moment, great. But, eventually, inexorably, it'll fall behind combat - first by a tenth of a percent, then a couple of tenths, then a percent or two, and so on - and sooner or later, you just have to draw the line and say "this isn't cutting it anymore",

For most raids full debuff consumption seems to be a good approximation for single-target fights; however, if you're in a particularly low-physical raid (tanks + hunters + melee DPS), and *particularly* on trash and other fights where more than one target is being hit, your debuff consumption starts to drop. So even if you're at the point where hemo is about even with combat at full debuff consumption, I still prefer combat, as it's more of a sure thing - less circumstantial. I also find the playstyle more interesting, but that's a separate issue.

Fundamentally, as when many things in roguedom, the answer is "it depends". Every rogue has to look at their raid compositions, the fights they're currently working on learning, and their gear, and figure out whether the tradeoffs are worth it for them. If you run the numbers and find that Hemo will do more damage as long as you have 80% debuff consumption? Probably worth it. If you find that it'd take 99%? More questionable. And if it's going to take 105%? Well... duh.

I suppose the one other thing that might be noted about Hemo is that some of the damage increases the tank's TPS, and further damage is spread among the other melee DPS; thus, if you're having serious aggro problems, it may be worth holding on to Hemo a bit longer to lower your personal threat. But I still maintain that sooner or later Combat will eclipse it... thought it might be noted that, depending on what exact weapons you have, one can still get a reasonable benefit out of a MH Mace or Fist with hybrid xxx/sword combat spec. Just because you have (or want to use) a non-sword MH doesn't necessarily mean that you have to spec hemo to do so.
#1816SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Takkara
Originally Posted by Jamu View Post
Now... here's the thing about the hemo debuff. It is the same regardless of gear level. This means that hemo is *very* powerful at lower raiding levels, but loses effectiveness at higher gear levels. But the nice thing is that because it stays the same (hit rating is the only major variable), you can easily figure out the value at all gear levels.

Assuming 5/5 Precision, a 25 man raid, and going with the conservative 8 hemo debuffs used per hit:

At 200 hit, hemo is worth 69dps
At 250 hit, hemo is worth 78dps
At 300 hit, hemo is worth 80.6dps
Hit capped, hemo is worth 83dps

Looking at this, it's safe to say that hemo adds 80dps at least to the raid provided you run at 240+ hit. The question is... will 80dps be worth it to YOU and your raid?
You greatly misunderstand how specials work. The special miss rate is not the same as your white attack miss rate. However, you've also completely ignored boss dodge rates. So I suppose your calculations end up being accidentally nearly correct.

Suffice it to say, any rogue with reasonable gear and precision is well beyond hit capped for yellow attacks such as hemo. The rest of the post is really just napkin math which isn't accurate enough to be fully trusted, but like the others have said, supports generally what the spreadsheets are saying.
#1817SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Ulric
If I remember correctly, Hemo :
  1. is affected by armor
  2. can crit
So your maths would be incorrect. In fact the real benefit of hemo can't be know actually, because there is no way to track it.

And I think that, the better is your stuff, the worst will be the debuff in term of efficiency. Because hemo debuff is a constant value. You cannot improve it the way your stuff will improve your damages per second.
#1818SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
kwinto
Hi. In the first post I'd like to see Adrenaline Rush instructions. Let's assume non-dagger combat rogue with 2xT4 and normal cycle 1s/5r. After AR the cycle is sometimes broken. I.e. S'n'D is going to its end and I have 3CP with plenty of time on rupture. What should I use? S'n'D with 3CP or unload with Evis, then wait few seconds to get enough energy for one SS and S'n'D and risk S'n'D burnout? What is S'n'D mechanics? Is it safe to let it leave for a second or shall it always be up and renewed each time before the counter is going to drop to zero?
Second question is about Rupture. In my opinion, when I have 5CP but Rupture is still few seconds till burnout, it's better to waste spare energy on SS than to break the cycle with Evis or restart Rupture before last tick. But I'd like to see some elitist jerks opinion on this

BTW, Thanks for this first post in this thread - I learned a lot from it.

Last edited by kwinto : 03/07/08 at 12:34 PM. Reason: violation of rules - signing
#1819SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Hanos
Originally Posted by aleyro View Post
I guess the 1,640 posts in this thread (http://elitistjerks.com/f31/t14321-r...emo+inflection) don't count as solid info to suggest the value of hemo in comparison to other builds?
I was starting to wonder how the hell he missed that thread, and was kind of hoping it had just gone off in a corner and died.

[quote=Jamu;666750]I'm running hemo maces, which most certainly won't match combat swords at the T5+ range, and is very much coming to the end of its usefulness now (ZA Talonblade OH in the bank... waiting for Tidewalker to cough up so I can go over to swords). It still is amazingly competetive (moreso than the personal dps hits on the intro suggest). Now hemo swords? That's a different matter entirely...[/b]

Actually the 2 are very very close given comparable weapons, I would guess Tri-Spec Hemo Maces and Swords come within 1% of each other using S3 weapons for both, because while you gain Sword Spec, you give up Deadliness, which isn't completely even, but everything we saw before showed that the trade off was more one of personal taste then an actual difference.

Anywho, on the theorycrafting side, what I gleaned from a quick scan of the hemo thread is that the spreadsheets using hemo assume all hemo debuffs will be used. Is this still the case? Also, is hit rating used to calc the number of hemo hits (and hence, number of debuffs) that will actually end up on the boss?
Hit Rating doesn't mean a damn thing in regards to Hemo. In a raid, those 10 charges are used up in about a second, they will essentially all be used everytime, so for practical purposes you can assume that all of them are used. Also, it is mitigated by armor, and can crit, which essentially cancel each other out, so you can just add 420 damage or whatever on top of each Hemo to get the total contribution.

(Yes, I'm grasping at straws, hoping some small amount of the time I spent puzzling over hemo might actually end up being useful. If not... all I've done is wasted forum space blowing a lot of hot air and beating a dead horse... :P)
The odds of you figuring out anything approaching new or novel that we didn't beat to death in the Hemo thread is essentially zero, sorry you are 3 months late to the party, and the ship has already sailed.

Originally Posted by CoroHD View Post
I hate to further burst your bubble, but wouldn't hemo also scale worse with raid haste buffs like Heroism/Bloodlust and Drums of Battle or personal haste buffs like a haste pot? Sure, heroism/bloodlust would guarantee that 10 hemo debuffs be used up, but I would imagine a 30 second 30% increase in the number of combat potency and sword spec proc's would outweigh that by a decent margin, and the same could be inferred for the drums and haste pot.
Combat does scale far better, all of the charges are always used anyway assuming anything approaching a normal raid, so there is no net gain from that. The difference is that with Combat, melee haste actually gives you more energy, which allows you to do more yellow damage, while with Hemo, you just do more white damage. While Hemo does a higher percentage white damage, the net gain from Haste as Combat is higher then for Hemo.


As you can probably see in the Hemo thread, I was a huge proponent of using it, if it provided even the slightest amount of net gain for the raid, and at the time it should have (if it wasn't bugged), and would continue to get better with gear due to Hemo scaling faster then Sinister Strike when Hemo was 125%. When the reduced the modifier, and increased the value of the debuff (as part of the HARP Arena Nerf), they made it better at T4 and T5 and straight up inferior at T6. Basically if you spec Hemo, you can contribute almost the same DPS as a Combat Rogue assuming you don't chain Drums, Heroism and Haste Pots, however, almost as much, with no advantages, is a stupid idea, and the spec is boring as hell to play (Tri-Spec), so why would you ever consider using it at a T6 or higher level?
#1820SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Hanos
Originally Posted by kwinto View Post
Hi. In the first post I'd like to see Adrenaline Rush instructions. Let's assume non-dagger combat rogue with 2xT4 and normal cycle 1s/5r. After AR the cycle is sometimes broken. I.e. S'n'D is going to its end and I have 3CP with plenty of time on rupture. What should I use? S'n'D with 3CP or unload with Evis, then wait few seconds to get enough energy for one SS and S'n'D and risk S'n'D burnout? What is S'n'D mechanics? Is it safe to let it leave for a second or shall it always be up and renewed each time before the counter is going to drop to zero?
Second question is about Rupture. In my opinion, when I have 5CP but Rupture is still few seconds till burnout, it's better to waste spare energy on SS than to break the cycle with Evis or restart Rupture before last tick. But I'd like to see some elitist jerks opinion on this

BTW, Thanks for this first post in this thread - I learned a lot from it.

Regards
Kwinto@Shadowsong-EU.
First off, read the rules before posting, don't sign your post, and don't come here making demands when the topic has already been covered.

AR allows you to essentially weave in a 5 Point Eviscerate into a normal Combat (Non-Daggers Cycle). How it exactly works out depends on where in your cycle you pop it. For example if you hit AR right after your 1 Point S&D, you probably want to do 5 Point Rupture, 5 Point Eviserate, 1 Point S&D, however at any other point you really have a hard time with not wasting energy or Combo Points. Personally, I would recommend before you plan to use AR, instead do a 2-3 point S&D (whatever you can get the energy for without letting S&D drop inbetween) and then firing off AR, BF, Drums and a Haste Pot, and you should have no problem fitting a 5 Point Rupture and a 5 Point Eviscerate in before needing to refresh S&D.

Also, you really want to use the other Badge Neck, Brooch of Deftness is a tank neck, Choker of Vile Intent is the one that rogues want to use until they can get the one off Supremus.
#1821SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Jamu
Originally Posted by Ulric View Post
If I remember correctly, Hemo :
  1. is affected by armor
  2. can crit
So your maths would be incorrect. In fact the real benefit of hemo can't be know actually, because there is no way to track it.

And I think that, the better is your stuff, the worst will be the debuff in term of efficiency. Because hemo debuff is a constant value. You cannot improve it the way your stuff will improve your damages per second.
The issue isn't the value of the hemo hit itself; I'm sure the personal dps calcs presented on this site take that into consideration already. The question is the value of the hemo debuff - which can not be tracked by damage meters.

My math is incorrect for other reasons (specifically for reasons mentioned by Takkara, who was nice enough to point out how wrong I was with my "napkin math" without pointing people to a resource on how special attacks work - gee, thanks...).

Originally Posted by CoroHD View Post
I hate to further burst your bubble, but wouldn't hemo also scale worse with raid haste buffs like Heroism/Bloodlust and Drums of Battle or personal haste buffs like a haste pot?
Again, I believe this has already been addressed in the personal dps calcs that are presented in the first post. This is why hemo maces gets a hearty 8-9% downrating in personal dps.

However, since the hemo debuff does NOT scale with gear, I believe there is an opportunity to figure out a reasonable dps estimate for the debuff, and determine a solid dps point at which hemo loses ground to combat specs. Currently, the issue is addressed by a "the hemo debuff may make up for personal dps"; I think a better answer could be presented, even if it carries a disclaimer. If it turns out that this point is way below my current gear level... I'll need to burn a path to the trainer ASAP and dump hemo like a bad dream. Heck... it may turn out that at *any* gear level, the hemo debuff isn't as good (except in that it provides increased dps at lower threat, as pointed out by Aldriana, so it may be useful to starting raiders with lower geared tanks).

I'll dig through the hemo thread to see if I can find a reasonable answer in case that has already been done. If not... perhaps we can figure out a decent answer so it isn't quite so "maybe".
#1822SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Jamu
Originally Posted by Hanos View Post
I was starting to wonder how the hell he missed that thread, and was kind of hoping it had just gone off in a corner and died.
Call me an idiot for missing the thread - I likely deserve it. But hoping it had gone off in a corner and died...

This is the problem. Evidently, all the work has been done. The answer is known - but not well presented. If, as you suggest, there is general agreement that at the T4 and T5 levels hemo will equal combat specs, why does the OP state that the hemo bebuff *may* make up for personal dps instead of it *does* make up for the loss of personal dps until you hit the T6 level? The answer may be that people don't agree with you, or the evidence doesn't stack up enough to make the hemo specs equal to combat.

In any case, people coming to this site generally hit Roguecraft 101 first (and possibly only this main thread). My rehashing this old topic you hoped had died may be no more than a reminder to update the OP to address the hemo issue more clearly.
#1823SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Belakor
Originally Posted by Jamu View Post
Call me an idiot for missing the thread - I likely deserve it. But hoping it had gone off in a corner and died...

This is the problem. Evidently, all the work has been done. The answer is known - but not well presented. If, as you suggest, there is general agreement that at the T4 and T5 levels hemo will equal combat specs, why does the OP state that the hemo bebuff *may* make up for personal dps instead of it *does* make up for the loss of personal dps until you hit the T6 level? The answer may be that people don't agree with you, or the evidence doesn't stack up enough to make the hemo specs equal to combat.

In any case, people coming to this site generally hit Roguecraft 101 first (and possibly only this main thread). My rehashing this old topic you hoped had died may be no more than a reminder to update the OP to address the hemo issue more clearly.
He says this because how much the debuff affects raid DPS depends on your raid composition.
#1824SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Arindelest
Originally Posted by Jamu View Post
This is the problem. Evidently, all the work has been done. The answer is known - but not well presented. If, as you suggest, there is general agreement that at the T4 and T5 levels hemo will equal combat specs, why does the OP state that the hemo debuff *may* make up for personal dps instead of it *does* make up for the loss of personal dps until you hit the T6 level? The answer may be that people don't agree with you, or the evidence doesn't stack up enough to make the hemo specs equal to combat.
The reason it is maybe, is because it is maybe. It depends on your physical DPS in the raid (I assume defensive stance affects the Hemo debuff, too?), the armor value of the boss, the gear of the DPS in your raid, and the level of gear/buffs you have (to see how much the debuff has to make up for, exactly). Unless you're suggesting we say with six dps melee and two prot tanks, x buffs, y average crit rate, a 6200 armor boss, etc etc. the Hemo is x% better or worse than combat ans do that a couple hundred times.

The underlying point here (which a number of people have already pointed out so I'm not being startlingly original) is that Combat is better than Hemo at most gear levels. The spreadsheets do a decent job of calculating it, and as far as general rules we already have one: Hemo is usually better at T4, roughly equivalent in T5, and flat-out worse in T6.
#1825SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Jamu
After scanning through things, here's the sort of statement that I think would be more accurate and put things to bed on the OP:

"With regards to hemo specs, at the T4 and T5 levels the hemo debuffs can make up for the loss of personal dps when dealing with a single target, provided there is sufficient melee in the raid to use the bebuffs. On a single target, the hemo debuff usage can be great enough that it beats a combat spec in overall raid dps contribution. However, in cases of split dps fights and trash pulls, debuff usage can drop and the overall value of the hemo bebuff will be reduced. As a result, hemo is a more "situational" spec - it works extremely well on a single target and may exceed combat in overall dps contribution in these cases, but combat specs are more consistent and reliable performers in all pulls. At the T4 level (Gruul/Mags, etc), a hemo spec will probably be preferable to combat. However, at the SSC/TK level of raiding, the situational nature of hemo kicks in and it may or may not continue to be of use.

Since the hemo debuff does not scale with gear at all, once you reach the upper T5 level (and most definitely at T6) hemo specs are not worth using. Likewise, there is little value to having more than one hemo spec rogue in the raid."

Last edited by Jamu : 03/07/08 at 1:38 PM. Reason: typo...
#1826SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Hanos
Originally Posted by Jamu View Post
After scanning through things, here's the sort of statement that I think would be more accurate and put things to bed on the OP:

"With regards to hemo specs, at the T4 and T5 levels the hemo debuffs can make up for the loss of personal dps when dealing with a single target, provided there is sufficient melee in the raid to use the bebuffs. On a single target, the hemo debuff usage can be great enough that it beats a combat spec in overall raid dps contribution. However, in cases of split dps fights and trash pulls, debuff usage can drop and the overall value of the hemo bebuff will be reduced. As a result, hemo is a more "situational" spec - it works extremely well on a single target and may exceed combat in overall dps contribution in these cases, but combat specs are more consistent and reliable performers in all pulls.

Since the hemo debuff does not scale with gear at all, once you reach the upper T5 level (and most definitely at T6) hemo specs are not worth using. Likewise, there is little value to having more than one hemo spec rogue in the raid."
I would deem that to be somewhere between misleading and wrong, and generally agree with the OP and the fact that it is rightfully ranked as an inferior spec. The first post clearly states:

In a 25-man raid, the Hemo debuff may contribute a substantial chunk of raid DPS, such that one Hemo rogue in the raid may make up for his loss of personal DPS. However, by tier 6, even a single rogue providing the debuff may not be worth the loss of personal DPS, and certainly it will not be worth having any more than one Hemo rogue in a raid regardless.
Basically in a best case scenario you can pull even, however, if for example all the other melee die, you will be doing less raid DPS because your personal DPS is lower. At no point would I consider Hemo significantly higher to warrant on any level suggesting it is superior to combat, because you have to take into account the variable value of charges, wasted charges (they happen... aka you Hemo 2-3 times on the GCD, or you Hemo right before the boss dies etc.).

Basically the original post is right, your splitting hairs to try to validate work you did that had already been done, and feel like you contributed something, only your work was inaccurate and incomplete, just leave it alone.


As to why I hoped that thread had died, try reading the last 5-10 pages, and I think you will get a pretty good idea why it was locked and resulted in at least one person getting banned.
#1827SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Dontmindme
Well, my best guess for the Hemo debuff is around 120-140 DPS now.

You missed a number of things with your napkin math.

1) No misses has already been addressed. But even dodges only cost you 20% energy as 80% is returned with serves to divide and dodge rate by 5. So really, you are talking about a 0.8% miss/dodge rate for calculations (assuming 2 pts Weapon Expertise).

2) The Hemo damage bonus is also modified but damage multipliers and crits. This means such things as the backstab % bonus or Warrior Execute factor in. And as noted, is depreciated by armor reduction.

3) These are difficult to quantify but one could probably take a WWS or combat log parse. Take an average of all physical attacks and proportion them to Hemo use and get a decent estimate. Then apply raidwide global damage modifiers and such and get a better estimate. To my knowledge, no one has actually done that.

The DPS spreadsheet has an estimate for the debuff which is on by default for Hemo builds. It uses a wide variety of assumptions, should be in the ballpark but I'm certainly not going to say it hits the bullseye. Someday I might revisit it, but I'm currently focusing on things that can be more precisely determined. For now, it says "estimate" and that's what it is...

And one last thing, before you just add 120-140 DPS to your WWS parse you must realize that you are using some of your own charges. Probably better to call it 100-120 DPS if you are going to add it.

Edit: And as a final aside, I have no problem or issue with how this is presented on the front page. I consider the statements as doing perfect justice to the relevance of Hemo spec. Just clarifying the specifics a little more.
#1828SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Mideci
So for what it's worth, the time you really need to drop hemo in my opinion is when you set foot into Hyjal. And the reason is not because you start moving into Tier 6 gear slowly and inexorably. It's because you really start losing the benefit of your hemo charges. Too often there isn't enough physical dps on the mob and you are renewing hemo before the charges are used up. And for the first time in a long time, your performance on trash is going to matter.

Since you are also going to begin getting tier 6 gear in the coming weeks and your spec is going to begin to fall behind, you may as well go ahead and respec combat at that point.
#1829SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Jamu
Originally Posted by Hanos View Post
Basically the original post is right, your splitting hairs to try to validate work you did that had already been done, and feel like you contributed something, only your work was inaccurate and incomplete, just leave it alone.
No, I am not attempting to validate my work. As a matter of fact, I went back to my original posts and DELETED the text due to bad assumptions. And I disagree with the OP and your "combat is inherantly always better" based on what was presented in the hemo thread between the flames, as well as statements like:

Originally Posted by Arindelest View Post
The spreadsheets do a decent job of calculating it, and as far as general rules we already have one: Hemo is usually better at T4, roughly equivalent in T5, and flat-out worse in T6.
If Arindelest is correct (and the hemo thread and other comments here seem to suggest this), why isn't this on the OP to make the matter clear? I don't come here to "validate" my work - I'm as satisfied to see it ripped to shreds as I would have been if it had been accepted as reasonable. Why? I've learned one heck of a lot in a short time!!! I'm now seriously considering dumping hemo to go to combat maces until I can go swords.

As for your examples... if all the melee is down, your raid is in deep do-do to begin with. Having a slight dps advantage with a combat spec likely won't be enough to save the day. Similarly... wasted charges at the end of a boss fight? How many combat rogues have had unused combo points when a boss/mob dies? Or had a rupture still ticking? Overall, even a full stack of 10 wasted charges at the end of a boss fight... is 420 damage missed over the course of an entire boss fight. Not enough to say emphatically "combat rulez alwayz" as a combat rogue could sneeze while at the keyboard, miss timing on a SS, and see a 5cp rupture reduced to 4cp. Regarding wasted charges during a boss fight due to GCD spamming... that is an interesting issue. It would be one heck of a challenge to model - I may need to pull out a new napkin.

Dontmindme and Mideci - thank you very much for your responses. Having a number to play with will indeed clarify things for myself and others, and the comment on Hyjal... extremely useful. This is exactly what I was looking for, and will undoubtedly be useful to others.
#1830SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Shonuf
Quick question...

What is it about the difference in spec/damage/speed/etc. between Combat Swords and Combat Fists that makes Fists have a lesser DPS rating?

I've been looking around at different item databases, the AH in-game, etc... and from what I can see, Fist weapons are either higher top end damage, or are slightly faster (sometimes the same speed) than swords. So where is does the downfall come into play?

Sword Spec is 5% chance of an extra attack, right?
Fist Spec is an additional 5% crit chance?

From what I can tell, my Sword Spec doesn't proc that extra attack very often at all. Like, never. (Well, obviously not never.)

So what am I missing here? Is it really just that chance of an extra attack that puts it over the top?

Gear: The World of Warcraft Armory
(Don't mind the gloves, they got changed last night, they were a gift from a Guildmate.)
Talents: The World of Warcraft Armory
#1831SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Hanos
Originally Posted by Shonuf View Post
Quick question...

What is it about the difference in spec/damage/speed/etc. between Combat Swords and Combat Fists that makes Fists have a lesser DPS rating?

I've been looking around at different item databases, the AH in-game, etc... and from what I can see, Fist weapons are either higher top end damage, or are slightly faster (sometimes the same speed) than swords. So where is does the downfall come into play?
Top end is generally considered irrelevant, since it just means there is a lower bottom end, and the average will in fact average out over time.

Sword Spec is 5% chance of an extra attack, right?
Fist Spec is an additional 5% crit chance?

From what I can tell, my Sword Spec doesn't proc that extra attack very often at all. Like, never. (Well, obviously not never.)


So what am I missing here? Is it really just that chance of an extra attack that puts it over the top?
You aren't looking very hard. Look at any WWS Report and you can clearly see how often Sword Spec actually procs, it is in fact 5% of the time.

It isn't just the additional attack, it is the fact that a Sword Spec Proc from an OH Sword Hit results in a MH hit, which does significantly more damage (2.6 Speed vs 1.4 speed, aka 80%+ more damage), and it isn't modified by the OH Penalty, and those attacks can crit.
#1832SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Ricard
Just for clarification, can sword spec extra attacks proc Mongoose? DST? Windfury? I am aware they cannot proc extra extra attacks, but I don't recall seeing the other procs being discussed.
#1833SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Jamu
WARNING: Bad napkin math!

Assume you have a 2.6 speed MH and a 1.5 speed OH for swords. Over the course of 60 seconds, you will have about 23 MH sword attacks, and 40 OH attacks, or a total of 63 sword attacks. For the sake of napkin math, let's reduce that by 15% to 54 attacks due to hit rating, boss dodge, or whatever. With a 5% chance to proc, in 60 seconds it is reasonable to assume that you will have at least 2, and more likely 3 extra MH attacks (2.7 extra attacks on the MH is the "average" in this napkin math example). So... is 2.7 free MH attacks per minute better than 5% crit? Remember, each freebie MH can crit, and this is what makes the sword spec so nice.

In response to your other question... fists being slightly higher top end damage or faster. The slightly higher top end damage is nice, as it can make your hemo/SS hit harder and your crits a little bigger. But if it has a higher top end damage but the same dps/speed as the equivilent sword, it will also have a lower minimum damage, so the fist will hit softer at times than the sword would. In the end, if the speed/dps are the same, there shouldn't be much difference in straight damage between a fist and sword (before spec comes into play!). As for faster fists... regardless of spec, people have found that a slower MH weapon works better as your SS/hemo hits will be bigger and make up for the "machine gun effect" of a faster weapon. So... if it's a slower speed weap with a higher top end damage... it might be nice, but most likely not. If it's a faster weap... probably not.

Speaking of slower weapons... imagine what would happen to the dps rankings if Blizz tossed a 2.6spd dagger at rogues... Combat daggers might actually wtfpwn combat swords.
#1834SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Aldriana
Originally Posted by Jamu View Post
Speaking of slower weapons... imagine what would happen to the dps rankings if Blizz tossed a 2.6spd dagger at rogues... Combat daggers might actually wtfpwn combat swords.
Well, 1) We both know Blizzard will never do that and 2) normalization means that that might not change things as much as you'd think.

Regarding the earlier debate: What you're seeing here, more or less, is the exact reason why the wording is vague in the original post. It's because there isn't really a consensus on what the right answer is. You have several established members of the community who understand the intricacies of the matter coming up with different conclusions. To be sure, the answers are all fairly close - variations on a theme, if you will - but the exact nature of when it's more powerful and when it's not depends on who you ask; thus, about the most general thing you can say without people arguing it is more or less what's already said - "it's reasonably comparable, but by T6 it falls behind".
#1835SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Dontmindme
Originally Posted by Ricard View Post
Just for clarification, can sword spec extra attacks proc Mongoose? DST? Windfury? I am aware they cannot proc extra extra attacks, but I don't recall seeing the other procs being discussed.
Prevailing theory seems to be that Sword Spec extra attacks can proc anything a normal attack can proc except another Sword Spec extra attack. I recall seeing a parse where there was a triple extra attack proc. I forget whether it was Sword Spec/WF/Sword Spec or WF/Sword Spec/WF. I appears the mechanic just prohibits the same extra attack from proccing twice in a row.
#1836SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Latito
Yes, Sword Spec attacks can proc WF attacks, but not Sword Spec attacks. Similarily, WF attacks can proc Sword Spec attacks, but not another WF. WF / SS attacks can proc DST, Weapon enchants (Mongoose, Exec), etc. Basically, its another auto attack which cannot proc an extra attack of its own type.

You CAN however go from Auto -> WF -> SS -> WF etc. If you happen to be using a Blinkstrike for whatever reason, the burst potential grows even more.
#1837SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3lolswordspec
Heroic Hit Cap?

I'll be honest, I don't raid often, but I love to run heroics. This brings me to my question: what is the rogue hit cap when dealing with mobs with a maximum level of 72? I imagine that there is some sliver of a percent of hit rating that just isn't needed when you downgrade from level 73 raid bosses.

On the same matter, and probably the better question, what would be the hit cap for level 70 trash mobs?

Thanks for any and all help with this!
#1838SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Jamu
The dual wield penalty against a level 72 mob is 25% on white attacks, and 6% miss on specials. As such, you need a minimum of 6% hit to ensure your specials don't miss (easily done with 5/5 Precision and 16 hit rating, or about 95 hit rating without precision). On a level 70 mob, the dual wield penalty is 24%, and 5% miss on specials. A raid boss is 28%reg / 9% specials... so the hit caps for 70 and 72 mobs aren't massively lower than a raid boss.

Since the hit cap is about 360 with 5/5 precision (or about 440 without precision) on a raid boss, dropping back to a level 72 mob is a hit cap of about 310 with precision (or 390 without). Hit cap on a level 70 is a bit lower than that... but realistically, you should gear for the highest level mob you expect to be hitting.

Given that heroics are "mini-raids", the basics required for a Kara level raid are a good level to aim for. This is 200 hit with 5/5 precision, or 280 hit without precision. Due to the lower level mobs in heroics, you can probably run with 160hit and 5/5 precision or 240 hit without precision and do fine... but honestly, the more hit the better in most cases. And on the occassions you do raid, you'll want the higher level hit to ensure you are effective dps.
#1839SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3schnaxine
Originally Posted by lolswordspec View Post
On the same matter, and probably the better question, what would be the hit cap for level 70 trash mobs?

Hit caps vs. various mob levels for dual weild classes including precision talent and 350 weapon skill:

(rounded to next integer)
vs. lvl 73: 363 hit rating
vs. lvl 72: 316
vs. lvl 71: 308
vs. lvl 70: 300
#1840SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3NvidiaN
After using this thread for all it's worth, and reaching approximately 90-95% of my max possible buffed DPS (based on figures in spreadsheet), I'm wondering how I can get the last 10% on a boss like tidewalker. I find myself particularly unsure what to do with time while I'm waiting for either my rupture or slice n dice to tick out. If I'm on a boss and have 5 combo points, a rupture which is up, and a slice n dice which is also up, what do I do? Is it best to simply sinister strike repeatedly until the rupture ticks off (essentially missing out on combo points), or should I be refreshing the rupture and losing the damage it would have done had I let it tick out?
#1841SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Aldriana
So, the first thing to keep in mind is that the spreadsheets assume 100% time on target; so if you get, for instance, graved on Tidewalker, you probably won't be able to hit the number. Also note that Rogue DPS has a lot of variance, so you can easily be 50-100 DPS under one week and 50-100 DPS over the next without doing anything different.

Regarding energy management: my general approach is to wait for energy to regen a bit before throwing whichever finisher is up next; you can safely let energy tick up to 60 or so without being in danger of capping out. But using 2/5 T4, you will generally end up burning some SnD time - and that's okay.
#1842SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3NvidiaN
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
So, the first thing to keep in mind is that the spreadsheets assume 100% time on target; so if you get, for instance, graved on Tidewalker, you probably won't be able to hit the number. Also note that Rogue DPS has a lot of variance, so you can easily be 50-100 DPS under one week and 50-100 DPS over the next without doing anything different.

Regarding energy management: my general approach is to wait for energy to regen a bit before throwing whichever finisher is up next; you can safely let energy tick up to 60 or so without being in danger of capping out. But using 2/5 T4, you will generally end up burning some SnD time - and that's okay.
Yes I've noticed that I'm not able to reach the number the sheet provides, though I still feel it's a good benchmark so to speak, so that I know how well I'm performing based on my gear/spec, not everyone else's. So waiting for either rupture/SnD to drop off is better than simply spamming SS in the interem, good to know...thank you.

Also, are there any macro's you suggest? I keep thinking one would be nice to pop my trinket, hit BF, etc., but I'm not sure as I've never used a macro before. Thoughts?
#1843SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 AtADeadRun
Originally Posted by NvidiaN View Post
Also, are there any macro's you suggest? I keep thinking one would be nice to pop my trinket, hit BF, etc., but I'm not sure as I've never used a macro before. Thoughts?
I use a big red button macro along the lines of "/castsquence reset=120 Bloodlust Brooch, Blade Flurry, Adrenaline Rush"

That pops BB and BF essentially simultaneously, since the trink isn't on the GCD, then AR. If you don't use all three within 2 minutes, it resets to the beginning.
#1844SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3KasumiRevy
So for what it's worth, the time you really need to drop hemo in my opinion is when you set foot into Hyjal. And the reason is not because you start moving into Tier 6 gear slowly and inexorably. It's because you really start losing the benefit of your hemo charges. Too often there isn't enough physical dps on the mob and you are renewing hemo before the charges are used up. And for the first time in a long time, your performance on trash is going to matter.

Since you are also going to begin getting tier 6 gear in the coming weeks and your spec is going to begin to fall behind, you may as well go ahead and respec combat at that point.
I think this is a pretty accurate in regards to hemo vs combat. As someone that is currently raiding in ssc/tk I can tell you that I'm competitive (this is before hemo debuff is factored in) with damage as mace spec + hemo. I consider myself the Utility rogue for the raid.

The main idea I'd like to push across in this thread is to other rogues that don't really find cookie cutter combat appealing, that yes you can do very well as hemo spec (with all the bells and whistles) at least till hyjal.
#1845SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Mideci
Originally Posted by KasumiRevy View Post
The main idea I'd like to push across in this thread is to other rogues that don't really find cookie cutter combat appealing, that yes you can do very well as hemo spec (with all the bells and whistles) at least till hyjal.
Yeah, you can do well with it.

But you comparing your dps to there is failing to account for differences in player skill. And therefore, like all non-theorycraft "I did this vs. so and so" posts, doesn't really tell people much except that you are a solid rogue vs. your guildmaters.

The theorycraft tells people the objective reality.
#1846SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Eliago
Hi everyone. I've been reading these forums a bit since I started raiding. I have a question that's been bugging me since I've seen the loot come out from 2.4. I'm not sure if this is the best topic for this question, but it's the most relevant one I could find. Anyways...

I am a rogue specced 5 Fist Spec / 5 Sword Spec. My guild is 2/6 SSC, and currently working on Morogrim and ZA while farming Kara, Gruuls, and Mag.

Currently the best weapons I've been able to get my hands on were the [Gladiator's Right Ripper] / [Gladiator's Quickblade]. I don't like PVP enough to farm a different set of gear to run Arena for S2/S3. I've been waiting for some good PVE weapons and it seems 2.4 might help with that.

The first thing I have my eye on is [Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality]. Now, the weapon is a bit fast for a mainhand, but it has way better PVE stats and an overall larger DPS. Now, for an offhand, I was considering [Quickening Blade of the Prince]. Of course staying 5 Fist Spec / 5 Sword Spec, and a sword being required for the extra chance to proc combat potency.

But I also started considering [Vanir's Left Fist of Savagery]. Again, way better stats and standard DPS than my current offhand or the [Quickening Blade of the Prince], but I'm assuming the lost of the additional attack for the extra 5% crit would actually lower DPS by a significant amount, right?

On the other hand, how would a straight Sword spec with [Talon of Azshara] / [Quickening Blade of the Prince] compare to Vanir / Quickening Blade? I believe the Vanir combo would out-dps it despite the Talon's faster speed, correct?

I think, based on my limited understanding of theorycraft, my options are basically between Vanir / Sword and Vanir / Vanir. Now all along I've considered Vanir / Sword to be the way to go, can someone confirm this would be the highest DPS?

Thanks.
#1847SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3saedo
Originally Posted by Eliago View Post
I think, based on my limited understanding of theorycraft, my options are basically between Vanir / Sword and Vanir / Vanir. Now all along I've considered Vanir / Sword to be the way to go, can someone confirm this would be the highest DPS?
The combo that gives the highest dps is the set of gear and talents that give you the highest dps number you can get in one of your friendly neighborhood rogue spreadsheets.
#1848SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Havenwood
Originally Posted by Eliago View Post
I think, based on my limited understanding of theorycraft, my options are basically between Vanir / Sword and Vanir / Vanir. Now all along I've considered Vanir / Sword to be the way to go, can someone confirm this would be the highest DPS?
With your gear: [Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality][Vanir's Left Fist of Savagery] > [Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality][Quickening Blade of the Prince] > [Talon of Azshara][Quickening Blade of the Prince]

So, go with Dual Vanir's.
#1849SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Latito
Originally Posted by Eliago View Post
a sword being required for the extra chance to proc combat potency.
Just wanted to pick out this phrase. Sword spec attacks proc extra MAIN hand attacks. A sword in the offhand will proc sword spec, causing your MH to attack again, not your OH. While this means that the OH sword spec procs won't let you get more combat potency, they will be swinging a substantially slower weapon which is not affected by the dual wield penalty. Also, since the extra attack is considered an auto-attack, it is not AP-normalized. Thus, a fast 1.4 or 1.5 speed OH sword is effectively generating 2.6+ speed MH attacks which benefit a whole lot more from your AP.. and can then proc WF .
#1850SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Minki
I thought a long time over this question I have. Crit hits can not be dodged parried missed or glanced, so is crit something like hit. So if you have enought crit you will have less dodge, miss, parry and glancings.
I can recall a theory from past which says the same thing. So than if you have much hit, you will drop you crit chance down because you have a chance on more white normal hits. That means that to much hit is not good for your DPS because your critrate is dropping.
My question now is, is it true or not? Becasue i have now 359hitraiting with hitfood and that now 3 Id's and i have 6-10% less crit in all fights as before. If its only onetime I would say I had no luck but 3id's now? :/
#1851SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3neg^
Originally Posted by KasumiRevy View Post
I think this is a pretty accurate in regards to hemo vs combat. As someone that is currently raiding in ssc/tk I can tell you that I'm competitive (this is before hemo debuff is factored in) with damage as mace spec + hemo. I consider myself the Utility rogue for the raid.

The main idea I'd like to push across in this thread is to other rogues that don't really find cookie cutter combat appealing, that yes you can do very well as hemo spec (with all the bells and whistles) at least till hyjal.
Back before patch 2.3 I used to top most meters as trispec hemo, with a personal dps usually ahead of the others melees, and I've done the same as mutilate too on several ssc/tk/hyjal bosses. Still doesn't change the fact that I'm contributing even more as combat swords. Yes, there are others specs that certainly might be viable depending on your frame of reference, but there really isn't much choice if you want to min/max.

With competent tanks you should be abusing ar+bf on trash long before you enter hyjal. Faster trash clears = more bosses.
#1852SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3koaschten
Originally Posted by Minki View Post
I thought a long time over this question I have. Crit hits can not be dodged parried missed or glanced, so is crit something like hit. So if you have enought crit you will have less dodge, miss, parry and glancings.
I can recall a theory from past which says the same thing. So than if you have much hit, you will drop you crit chance down because you have a chance on more white normal hits. That means that to much hit is not good for your DPS because your critrate is dropping.
My question now is, is it true or not? Becasue i have now 359hitraiting with hitfood and that now 3 Id's and i have 6-10% less crit in all fights as before. If its only onetime I would say I had no luck but 3id's now? :/
You have an interesting understanding of the hit-table.

It is correct that crits can not be dodged, parried, missed or glanced, but this is because a crit is a converted hit. Hit rating neither lowers your crit-rate nor does it lower your overall-dps. It adds to your white-dps and as a result increases overall dps. Seems you got either an addon that has a wrong understanding of the hit-table and showing wrong percentual results or you are having, as you already said, bad luck.
#1853SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3nelalas
Originally Posted by Minki View Post
I thought a long time over this question I have. Crit hits can not be dodged parried missed or glanced, so is crit something like hit. So if you have enought crit you will have less dodge, miss, parry and glancings.
I can recall a theory from past which says the same thing. So than if you have much hit, you will drop you crit chance down because you have a chance on more white normal hits. That means that to much hit is not good for your DPS because your critrate is dropping.
My question now is, is it true or not? Becasue i have now 359hitraiting with hitfood and that now 3 Id's and i have 6-10% less crit in all fights as before. If its only onetime I would say I had no luck but 3id's now? :/
Define "before." What you are seeing could be the result of putting a lot of emphasis on hit rating at the expense of agility or crit rating. In other words, what are the gear differences between your "before" state and the "now" state for which you have 3 instances in your sample size (assuming id = raidID)?

Also, to punctuate koaschten's point regarding the attack table, allow me to illustrate what he was saying (it may also be helpful to other readers not familiar with the attack table). Consider that you swing your sword in a normal white hit against a boss. The result of your swing, in order of priority, is as follows:

1. Attack Misses
2. Attack is Dodged
3. Attack is Parried
4. Attack is Glancing (cannot crit)
5. Attack is Blocked
6. Attack is Critical
7. Attack is Normal

Now, assuming that you are attacking the boss from behind, the ability of the attack to be parried or blocked is eliminated. With the changes to weapon skill, you will always have a 25% chance to glance against a level 73 boss. Furthermore, it is generally accepted that a boss has a 6.5% dodge rate. Thus, your attack table looks like this:

1. Miss ......... 28% - Precision - Hit_from_Gear - Imp_Faerie_Fire
2. Dodge ...... 6.5% - Weapon_Expertise - Expertise_from_Gear
3. Glance ...... 25%
4. Crit ........... Base Stats + Malice + Gear + etc.
5. Normal ...... (100% - Miss% - Dodge% - Glance%) - Crit%

So, as long as your swing does not miss, get dodged, or glance, then it has the chance to crit. If your character's crit rate is in excess of the residual percentage left after these other options then you are in a state of being crit capped (this is really hard to achieve). Thus, if you keep the same crit rate and simultaneously decrease your miss rate, you should actually see more crits. In practice, though, we see a lot of trade-offs in our gear choices and I suspect that what you personally are seeing is that you have decreased your miss rate at a large expense of your crit rate (Ooo I want that 10 hit rating instead of 20 crit rating or 15 agility, etc.). Using a spreadsheet for gear decisions is a helpful, unbiased way of taking into account all of the stats on items to determine what is truly better. Hit is good but it is not everything. ;-)
#1854SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Minki
My Gear changed from S3 Mainhand and OffHand Sword to Illidan Mainhand and Mother OH, hyjal Exalted ring to Akama Ring. Thats all. And can you tell me a good spreadsheet? I had two in past but i formated my PC completly and cant remember where i got them from exactly.
#1855SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3tymoney321
If you read the first page in this thread, section #10, there are links to the two spreadsheets (which are also on this site in another thread)
#1856SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Coffin Burier
I've spent the last 2 days reading this forum... very very nice community with very interesting infos about WoW Mechanics. During my research I haven't read much about my spec 31/0/30... I guess there is more in here, but these are the only few things I've found about it (this page and the next one):

[Rogue]The Combat vs Hemo Point of Inflection

I've seen that most people played it with a combat equip, but from my experience the spec Hemo Seal Fate need specific items, many of which can be bought throug PvP (bg, arena and badges). I've also seen that this is not a very popular spec in PvE, nor in PvP. I've always been playing it and I've only moved few talents to try and always improve my personal dps.

This spec is focused on saving energy and generating combo points. Equip and gems must provide the highest crit change possible and that's why I've socketed every single gem with +crit rating (except 2 sockets, to meet the meta socket requirements). The most important thing is to reach the yellow damage hit cap and possibly not exceed it.

I'm dressed with some Vindicator items, Dory's Embrace, Gladiator Shiv, Merciless Slicer, two clafts and few drops from Karazhan. We've been playing in TK (Void, Solarian), SSC (Hydross, Lurker), Grull Lair and ZA for quite a long time and I'm still waiting for some interesting drops for my spec (always oriented to highest crit and highest AP).

At the moment, unbuffed, I have 1792 AP, 31,41% crit chance, 145 hit rating (with no precision), no expertise, but about 750 Armor Penetration (due to Serrated Blades plus passive item stats). I've enchanted Mongoose only on the main hand and thinking about the offhand (now enchanted with +20 Agility). I also need to use DP on offhand and main hand to keep it up with 3/5 Improved Poisons.

In raid I'm usually one of the top dps. Our top dps, other than me are a Full Fire Mage, one Affliction Lock and 2 Combat Rogues. On bosses like Grull my advantage is a very hight DOT Uptime that allows me to keep a high dps even during the Ground Slam (I'm usually the first in this king of chart, before every lock and shadow priest). The crit chance during the encounter can modify very much my totale damage. An example: this evening at the Void I had a crit chace of 31% with white damage and just 26% with Hemorrage... this means fewer number of combos and lower total dps, about (1,4% less than the top dps combat rogue). My actual crit chance should be 34%-35% buffed with no feral druids in the party. Some crit reduction is normal due to the combat system for yellow damage: every dodge o parry reduces my total hits and the related total crits. When crits reach 35% I'm usually the first or second in the total dps.

My cycle is usually 5r/5r/5r/5e... very simple. I just rupture and see how much energy and combos I can get before refreshing it. I dont' use SnD and may try it out soon. But first, I need to choose the best combination with Poisons and related talents. I don't know how good it is, but with my armor penetration, on Void, I had an everage crit with 5 combos Eviscerate of 2460 damage and the top crit of 2900 damage. On trashes I crit even more, about 3200 damage. These high numbers are in part coused by the talent Dirty Deeds which increse my damage by 20%.

Let me know your thinkings about this spec and tell me what kind of test I should run if you're as curious as me to compare combat rogues vs seal fate hemo rogues, please. Thank you.

P.S.
Sorry for my english. :P
#1857SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
 silentogre
WWS would be interesting

[Post removed]

Last edited by silentogre : 03/10/08 at 10:15 PM. Reason: missed something
#1858SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3aleyro
Originally Posted by Coffin Burier View Post
...
Let me know your thinkings about this spec and tell me what kind of test I should run if you're as curious as me to compare combat rogues vs seal fate hemo rogues, please. Thank you.

P.S.
Sorry for my english. :P

So, in the spirit of full disclosure, i'm also running as 31/0/30 right now. Its a very, very fun build, with what I consider to be a dynamic, tight, interactive play style. It's somewhat unpredictable- which i particularly enjoy, after mindlessly spamming SS for months as combat.

however.... it simply *will not* produce as much sustained DPS as a combat centric build, or even as a tri-spec hemo build, even if played absolutely perfectly- and, regretfully, if i'm reading your post correctly, you are not getting the best performance out of your (already sub-par) build.

you've stated that you generally run 5r/5r/5r/5e. by doing this, your (mostly likely) breaking three of the seven commandments of rogue DPS:

Don't let your energy cap out.
Don't let SnD drop.
Use one of the spreadsheets to figure out your best cycle; this will usually be the highest rupture uptime cycle that doesn't violate rule 4 or 5.

the cycle you've outlined above may be maximizing your rupture uptime, but are you running SnD at all? if your not, your missing out on a significant portion of your DPS.


When I raid as 3x/0/3x, i normally use what i call a 2+R/2+S cycle- meaning, I rupture as soon as I have at least 2CP, and I SnD when I have at least 2CP. typically, I use a macro something like this:

/castsequence Rupture, hemorrhage, hemorrhage, Slice and Dice, hemorrhage, hemorrhage

this ensures that every rupture and every SnD will be at least 2cp, but in practice, most are much more, due to procs from relentless, or 4pc t4, or either of the hemos critting. If i find myself in the odd position where I have CP and rupture is still ticking and SnD has plenty of time, I "burn" the 5cp on a CB-evis and start over again.

this build, and the cycle that i've put in place with it, is fun. Its somewhat effective, as well. but, at the end of the day, it simply cannot compete with combat, due to:

dual weild spec - this is known to be the most efficient way to spend points to improve your dps. >50% of your DPS is white damage, half of those swings are OH swings, and this dramatically increases the DPS of those swings.
improved SnD - SnD is an incredible dps boost, but it costs energy to maintain. this talent lets me spend less energy keeping SnD up and more energy doing DPS.
combat potency imo, this is the "crown jewel" of combat- basically, rogue dps is based on energy generation, and this (coupled with the correct speed OH weapon) is the best mechanism for gaining energy.
precision increasing hit increases the amount of OH hits that you have, which increases combat potency, which increases your dps. its a wonderful virtuous cycle.

if your out to have fun, stick to your current spec. If you want to stick to your current spec and improve your DPS, try to incorporate SnD, at a minimum. If you want to bring the best possible DPS to your raid, respec combat, or at a minimum, incorporate as many of the talents listed above into your build.
#1859SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Coffin Burier
Originally Posted by aleyro View Post
this build, and the cycle that i've put in place with it, is fun. Its somewhat effective, as well. but, at the end of the day, it simply cannot compete with combat, due to:

dual weild spec - this is known to be the most efficient way to spend points to improve your dps. >50% of your DPS is white damage, half of those swings are OH swings, and this dramatically increases the DPS of those swings.
improved SnD - SnD is an incredible dps boost, but it costs energy to maintain. this talent lets me spend less energy keeping SnD up and more energy doing DPS.
combat potency imo, this is the "crown jewel" of combat- basically, rogue dps is based on energy generation, and this (coupled with the correct speed OH weapon) is the best mechanism for gaining energy.
precision increasing hit increases the amount of OH hits that you have, which increases combat potency, which increases your dps. its a wonderful virtuous cycle.
Thank you for helping. My intention is to prove how efficient the spec 31/0/30 can be... I tryed to change spec, but never made it... too hard for me... I need Seal Fate. May I ask you your personal unbuffed stats to compare them with mine?

Other people told me "You need more hit rating", but, from my point of view, a critical has many more advantages (Seal Fate procs, BM Trinket Procs, Increased Critical Strike Damage Bonus and the possibility to improve Yellow and White damage at the same time (also thinking about a crit like a double hit).

I don't use SnD at all... well... I might start now and see what happens. I don't use it simply because I didn't Improve it and then consider it a waste of energy. I personally didn't know anything about cicles... from a newbie point of view a 4or less CP finisher is a risk of not getting the Relentless Strikes proc.

My cicle is not exactly has I wrote... that was a sort of example... I usually do an Eviscerate (CB Crit if available) as soon as I can keep up ruprture. I'm gonna try these days some of your suggestions. I've already seen some increase in damage from using SnD at a poison/bleeding immune boss like the Void. Last night my damage was divided in 47,7% Melee (147k), 32,2% Hemorrage (99k) and 20,1% Eviscerate (62k). I've calculated the energy cost of 33 Eviscerates, thn for how long I could keep up SnD with that energy (over 16 minutes on an encounter of less than 8 minutes) and then calculated how many Eviscerates I could still do with the rest of the energy. The result for an average Eviscerate plus an additional 30% of melee damage bring me to an increase of 13k damage over a total of 308k that would be without SnD. That's an additional 23% damage. I can't wait to try it out!

Things become different when we come to a non-immune poison/bleed boss... I recall that in these case my average melee damage don't get over 40%... I don't have any number to see how good SnD could be in this case, but I will see.

You said you're using my same spec. With 145 hit rating which poisons would you use and where? Where would you put the 3 poisons talents you have availble (3/5 Vile or 3/5 Improved)? Would your suggestions work without using SnD? Please tell me and thank you again for help! ^_^

P.S.
I found you on the armory and let me express my opinion about your talents and mainly about your equip (check me on wow europe armory if you are curious and let me know your opinion). We have pretty similar specs, but you just have 1/2 Quick Recovery... that talent really helps out in raid and in PvP too. I have it 2/2... think about it. Your hit rating is the highest I've ever seen! You'd do very well in combat sword spec. The biggest problem is your crit chance... I have almost 32% in PvE equip and over 30% in PvP... Seal Fate need you to crit... it's not just some extra combo, it's the way it's meant to be played! Vindicator's Belt, Neck and Ring really help increasing your crit rating... and don't forget you sockets. These items also help in PvP... I've seen your arena rating is pretty low... maybe you should find a lock to play with. I can just say that in a 2vs2 arena against a lock and priest discipline I did 50k damage trying killing that damn lock... this spec is really fun and in my opinion is awesome both PvP and PvE. In my calculation I never mentioned the Hemo debuff... I usually just talk in term of personal dps.

Last edited by Coffin Burier : 03/11/08 at 5:52 AM.
#1860SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Left
Originally Posted by Coffin Burier View Post
Thank you for helping. My intention is to prove how efficient the spec 31/0/30 can be... I tryed to change spec, but never made it... too hard for me... I need Seal Fate. May I ask you your personal unbuffed stats to compare them with mine?

Other people told me "You need more hit rating", but, from my point of view, a critical has many more advantages (Seal Fate procs, BM Trinket Procs, Increased Critical Strike Damage Bonus and the possibility to improve Yellow and White damage at the same time (also thinking about a crit like a double hit).

I don't use SnD at all... well... I might start now and see what happens. I don't use it simply because I didn't Improve it and then consider it a waste of energy. I personally didn't know anything about cicles... from a newbie point of view a 4or less CP finisher is a risk of not getting the Relentless Strikes proc.

...
See, these paragraphs show that you have some fundamental misunderstandings about the rogue class.

A crit does have advatages compared to a hit, but crit rating is (in general) not better than hit rating. Crit rating is valued such that it takes nearly 50% more crit rating to produce 1% crit than it does hit rating to produce 1% hit. Thus, you get more bang for your buck from stacking +hit. (This is true even for a 3x/0/3x spec such as yours, although less so than for a combat spec.) So, your criticals would have to be 50% better than your hits for crit rating to be better than hit rating. Your case is, interestingly, one where the value of crit rating actually does approach or surpass the value of hit rating, mostly because you ignore white damage overwhelmingly in your gearing and play style.

Second, I have never seen a rogue where SnD should not be the first priority finisher. Even in your case, where white damage will make up a much smaller chunk of your output than many other classes due to your abysmal hit chance and the lack of DW spec, the DPS spreadsheet will tell you that your optimal cycle is 5 SnD + 4 Rupture. If you deal a mere 250 base damage per second white damage (something most rogues achieve with their main hand only), then over the course of 30 seconds SnD is worth 2250 damage. If you deal twice that (which is the more common scenario), then SnD is worth 4500 damage as a finisher. Not only that, but it increases your poison uptime and your chance for certain procs to occur. Your absolutely best case Ruptures are dealing only 2500 (2000 AP + Mangle with your spec) over 16 seconds. More likely, you are looking at ~2200. Since it is relatively easy to keep up SnD + Rupture (even with your spec), you have to ask yourself which is higher: 2500*2 (best case) or 2500 + ~4500?

Third, saying you know nothing about cycles implies that you haven't really read much of this thread or the other, or if you have you haven't really processed it adequately. I would encourage you to read carefully about and then use the spreadsheet called "Rogue DPS Spreadsheet" linked here:

[Rogue] DPS Spreadsheet

In particular, pay attention to issues surrounding the "Hemo Debuff Estimate". Using the spreadsheet simulator, with your gear (which is arguably at an on-par or higher itemization level than my current gear), you would deal ~10% less DPS than me in an identical raid setting even if we assume all your Hemo charges are getting used by the raid and we are counting those towards your DPS. If we look at your personal DPS only, you would be doing ~22% less than me.

In any case, if you like it, play it. Just don't come in and try to convince us of the "efficiency" of it or any such nonsense. It's been examined, many times, but it just doesn't come close to any other spec in terms of sustained raid DPS. (Heck, even 11/9/41 Shadowstep is superior to it in your current gearset.)

If you like the playstyle of 31/0/30, I would encourage you to try 41/20/0 or 43/0/18 Mutilate sometime. It will have a similar playstyle while delivering vastly superior damage output.
#1861SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Professor Hurt
Originally Posted by Coffin Burier View Post
Thank you for helping. My intention is to prove how efficient the spec 31/0/30 can be... I tryed to change spec, but never made it... too hard for me... I need Seal Fate. May I ask you your personal unbuffed stats to compare them with mine?
It's my belief that slight flucutations in stats between chars have less impact on damage output than many other factors (see Aldriana's rules of being a rogue). In other words, you may *think* your stats are better due to your higher crit, higher AP, whathaveyou, but you may deal significantly less damage than another 31/0/30 rogue due to your stat allocation and finisher choices (not using SnD is a big one).

To be perfectly honest, I don't believe us telling you that you may have an underperforming build will change your mind, so I think you'll have to do some tests for yourself. First gather a very solid collection of WWS data (for a full raid or two) in your current spec and post it here so we can at least see how you currently perform. Then compare that to:
a) your build but weaving in SnD
b) your build with a +hit focus weaving in SnD
c) another build entirely, perhaps combat or mutilate, played the way the opening post in this thread dictates

Not all of those changes are easy to accomplish, such as regemming for +hit just for a "test", but I guarantee you'll notice significant improvements in your PvE damage.

I am not factoring in PvP at all, which requires a different focus of stats. If you're looking for one single build that will put you in the top percentages of both PvP and PvE, you'll need to start building two separate sets of gear with PvE focused on +hit.

On an aside, like others have posted here, play whatever build makes you the happiest and play it however you like. However, imho, your posts are directed toward min/maxing, so expect a fair amount of input from people telling you that the choices you've made don't match the min/max data so rigorously obtained through years of theorycrafting. In other words, expect some criticisms

Last edited by Professor Hurt : 03/11/08 at 12:08 PM.
#1862SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3JTLJudoMan
Originally Posted by Left View Post
In any case, if you like it, play it. Just don't come in and try to convince us of the "efficiency" of it or any such nonsense. It's been examined, many times, but it just doesn't come close to any other spec in terms of sustained raid DPS. (Heck, even 11/9/41 Shadowstep is superior to it in your current gearset.)
I agree with you 110% there. I've been coming to these forums and reading them for quite a very long time now. You've taught me just about everything I need to know rogues (I always knew about the slice n dice, learned about rupture being more dps over evisc).

The posters here have done a lot of amazing analysis and theory crafting and I sincerely thank you all for that.

In short this is a game and you may play it however you wish. If you want to absolutely maximize your dps then you will gear and play in the styles outlined earlier in this thread (page 1).
#1863SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Hanos
Coffin - First off, when it comes to things like this I am not a nice person, and have very little tolerance for people who come here thinking they know what they are talking about but have not taken the time to find out they really don't have a clue. If you can't take harsh personal criticism, stop reading now.

Originally Posted by Coffin Burier View Post
I've spent the last 2 days reading this forum... very very nice community with very interesting infos about WoW Mechanics. During my research I haven't read much about my spec 31/0/30... I guess there is more in here, but these are the only few things I've found about it (this page and the next one):
I think you need to spend another couple days reading more, because it is covered, however it is not covered in depth because it is an inferior spec for raid DPS, Arenas, PvP, and every other form of play. Basically to quote A Knight's Tale, "You have been weighed, You have been measured, and You have been found wanting". The spec isn't good, it is never going to be good based on any different combination of gems, stats or gear (however, even there you failed miserably - ideal gear would require the Ashtongue trinket and all Agility Gems in Red Sockets and Agility/Hit in Yellow, NEVER EVER EVER use Crit gems, it is like branding "I am an idiot" on your forehead for anyone with a clue).

I've seen that most people played it with a combat equip, but from my experience the spec Hemo Seal Fate need specific items, many of which can be bought throug PvP (bg, arena and badges). I've also seen that this is not a very popular spec in PvE, nor in PvP. I've always been playing it and I've only moved few talents to try and always improve my personal dps.
It isn't popular because it is a bad spec, that produces inferior results, and when your only job is to do DPS, doing shitty DPS is a bad thing. Arena/BG items are only worth using for PvE when you are so far behind the progression curve that welfare epics have surpassed the ones you can earn with skill, BG/Arena items waste a huge amount of stats on Stam and Resilience, which have essentially 0 value in PvE, therefore these items are not "ideal" or "needed" for 31/0/30, instead they are simply better then the T4 gear that you have access to.

This spec is focused on saving energy and generating combo points. Equip and gems must provide the highest crit change possible and that's why I've socketed every single gem with +crit rating (except 2 sockets, to meet the meta socket requirements). The most important thing is to reach the yellow damage hit cap and possibly not exceed it.
No, the spec is focused around dealing damage, every rogue spec is focused around dealing damage, yours is simply focused on dealing less damage while providing no added benefit. Crit gems are a horrible choice for a rogue, at no point with any spec are you advised to use Crit Gems, if you want to go for a Seal Fate Build the focus switches slightly to Agi over Hit, but never to crit.

I'm dressed with some Vindicator items, Dory's Embrace, Gladiator Shiv, Merciless Slicer, two clafts and few drops from Karazhan. We've been playing in TK (Void, Solarian), SSC (Hydross, Lurker), Grull Lair and ZA for quite a long time and I'm still waiting for some interesting drops for my spec (always oriented to highest crit and highest AP).
Yep, T4 and welfare epics. Let me make this clear, there are no "interesting drops", there are good items and bad items, the good items are good for every spec, the bad items are bad for every spec.

At the moment, unbuffed, I have 1792 AP, 31,41% crit chance, 145 hit rating (with no precision), no expertise, but about 750 Armor Penetration (due to Serrated Blades plus passive item stats). I've enchanted Mongoose only on the main hand and thinking about the offhand (now enchanted with +20 Agility). I also need to use DP on offhand and main hand to keep it up with 3/5 Improved Poisons.
Ok, so you have gutted your hit rating, and thus your white damage, to get up to 31% Crit, and you are too cheap to put a good enchant on your OH, oh, and you use MH Poisons... very nice, not to mention you have 3/5 Imp Poisons and you are using the same poison on MH AND OH... even better, first off you should be able to keep up Deadly at 5 stacks with it just on your OH, even without using S&D, but with S&D you should have no issue. Also, Windfury is the MH buff of choice, not a second Deadly Poison.

In raid I'm usually one of the top dps.
Wow... your raid must really, really suck, I mean the fact that you are even in the top 10 tells me that the rest of your raid also thinks they are rare and unique flowers and probably is full of Arcane Mages, Smite Build Priests, Fire Warlocks, Duel Wield Elemental Shaman, and the like. The fact that you do reasonably well in a group of failures, does not mean your spec is good, or that you are good, it simply means you are "less bad" then the people you play with.

Our top dps, other than me are a Full Fire Mage, one Affliction Lock and 2 Combat Rogues. On bosses like Grull my advantage is a very hight DOT Uptime that allows me to keep a high dps even during the Ground Slam (I'm usually the first in this king of chart, before every lock and shadow priest).
DoT Uptime? You realize your Rupture lasts just as long as properly spec'ed rogues, same with your poison... and for a normal rogue they combine to be about 10-12% of your damage? So your "advantage" is so negligible that it isn't even worth looking at, grats on not looking at the numbers, and making horribly wrong assumptions.

The crit chance during the encounter can modify very much my totale damage. An example: this evening at the Void I had a crit chace of 31% with white damage and just 26% with Hemorrage... this means fewer number of combos and lower total dps, about (1,4% less than the top dps combat rogue). My actual crit chance should be 34%-35% buffed with no feral druids in the party. Some crit reduction is normal due to the combat system for yellow damage: every dodge o parry reduces my total hits and the related total crits. When crits reach 35% I'm usually the first or second in the total dps.
I don't even have the patience to go into why this is wrong, just assume that it is either wrong or irrelevant.

My cycle is usually 5r/5r/5r/5e... very simple.
And very simply, horribly wrong. Not using S&D is a massive failure for a rogue, spec'ed or not, it is the first finisher you use, and you keep it up 100% at all costs.

I just rupture and see how much energy and combos I can get before refreshing it. I dont' use SnD and may try it out soon. But first, I need to choose the best combination with Poisons and related talents.
We already know you aren't using the best combinations of poisons and talents, duel Deadly is not the best for anything.

I don't know how good it is, but with my armor penetration, on Void, I had an everage crit with 5 combos Eviscerate of 2460 damage and the top crit of 2900 damage. On trashes I crit even more, about 3200 damage. These high numbers are in part coused by the talent Dirty Deeds which increse my damage by 20%.
BIG NUMBERS!!1!!!11!1 I do big numbers, that must mean I do good DPS... WRONG. Your high end crits don't mean anything, your sustained, repeatable DPS is what is most important.

Let me know your thinkings about this spec and tell me what kind of test I should run if you're as curious as me to compare combat rogues vs seal fate hemo rogues, please. Thank you.
Your spec and gear show that you have a complete and utter lack of understanding of the finer points of the rogue class, you will get absolutely destroyed by an equally skilled and geared Combat, TSH, Mutilate, and probably even Shadowstep Rogue. The test you should run is go to Dire Maul, and beat on the ghosts behind the King for 1-2 hours, record your DPS, go regem and respec to Combat or Tri-Spec Hemo, try again, notice the huge DPS Gain, profit.

Sorry for my english. :P
Your English is fine, next time apologize for not searching more and finding out why this spec sucks.

Originally Posted by Coffin Burier View Post
Thank you for helping. My intention is to prove how efficient the spec 31/0/30 can be... I tryed to change spec, but never made it... too hard for me... I need Seal Fate. May I ask you your personal unbuffed stats to compare them with mine?
So you aren't talented enough to play with a correct spec, so you are trying to find a way to justify playing with an inferior one? How about you take the time you spent making these posts, and learn how to properly gem/gear/play as Combat. You aren't going to prove anything, the numbers simply don't work and you are using an inferior spec, you can min-max the spec all you want, but the results are still going to be inferior.

Oh, and my unbuffed stats: 2093 AP, 278 Hit Rating (normally use +20 food), 30.29% Crit, 16 Expertise, ~630 Armor Penetration (+ Warp-Spring and Madness Procs).

Other people told me "You need more hit rating", but, from my point of view, a critical has many more advantages (Seal Fate procs, BM Trinket Procs, Increased Critical Strike Damage Bonus and the possibility to improve Yellow and White damage at the same time (also thinking about a crit like a double hit).
Your Point of View is wrong you could possibly argue for Agi being slightly better then hit for a SF build, but Crit is simply too expensive from an itemization budget point of view.

I don't use SnD at all... well... I might start now and see what happens. I don't use it simply because I didn't Improve it and then consider it a waste of energy. I personally didn't know anything about cicles... from a newbie point of view a 4or less CP finisher is a risk of not getting the Relentless Strikes proc.
This is your fatal flaw, you came here acting like you had a clue, and you don't, lurk more, post less, you have a lot of learning to do, everything in that statement is wrong.

My cicle is not exactly has I wrote... that was a sort of example... I usually do an Eviscerate (CB Crit if available) as soon as I can keep up ruprture. I'm gonna try these days some of your suggestions. I've already seen some increase in damage from using SnD at a poison/bleeding immune boss like the Void. Last night my damage was divided in 47,7% Melee (147k), 32,2% Hemorrage (99k) and 20,1% Eviscerate (62k). I've calculated the energy cost of 33 Eviscerates, thn for how long I could keep up SnD with that energy (over 16 minutes on an encounter of less than 8 minutes) and then calculated how many Eviscerates I could still do with the rest of the energy. The result for an average Eviscerate plus an additional 30% of melee damage bring me to an increase of 13k damage over a total of 308k that would be without SnD. That's an additional 23% damage. I can't wait to try it out!
This type of math doesn't work, you leave out too many variables for it to come even close to being accurate. Use a spreadsheet, it will help you immensely.

Things become different when we come to a non-immune poison/bleed boss... I recall that in these case my average melee damage don't get over 40%... I don't have any number to see how good SnD could be in this case, but I will see.
Well if you had some hit rating and used S&D like a good rogue, it would be more. Combat typically sees 60-65% of damage from melee, and Tri-Spec Hemo can get over 70%, the fact that your white damage sucks is due to the fact that you are missing almost 20% of the time, and getting dodged another 6.5%, so you are hitting on less then 75% of your swings, and you are hitting at 75% of the speed of a rogue using S&D.

You said you're using my same spec. With 145 hit rating which poisons would you use and where? Where would you put the 3 poisons talents you have availble (3/5 Vile or 3/5 Improved)? Would your suggestions work without using SnD? Please tell me and thank you again for help! ^_^
Use 3/5 Improved, you will need it with your lack of hit. Use S&D, regem to get some more hit.

I found you on the armory and let me express my opinion about your talents and mainly about your equip
You don't get to express an opinion, you have shown yourself to be completely clueless regarding all things rogue.

I've seen your arena rating is pretty low... maybe you should find a lock to play with. I can just say that in a 2vs2 arena against a lock and priest discipline I did 50k damage trying killing that damn lock... this spec is really fun and in my opinion is awesome both PvP and PvE. In my calculation I never mentioned the Hemo debuff... I usually just talk in term of personal dps.
Wow a 1759 rating, you must be the expert on PvP and Arena... just stop now.


I haven't broken this out in a while, but you deserve it:

what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
#1864SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Latito
I was starting to write a post which was going to contain pretty much everything Hanos had to say.. and then when going back to grab some quotes noticed he had finished so I just stopped.

That said, I'm in complete agreement with Hanos (and the several other rogues who have posted). Coffin, your spec is trash, your cycle is idiotic, your gear is wrong. Cease and desist.

Take the advise of 2 rogues who are near the top of the world in terms of damage output. You are wrong, we are right. If you were on my server, I'd put on my T4, join you for a raid or two and top your damage by likely 50% or something stupid. Get a spreadsheet, realize the dps you are losing. Note that the Gear spreadsheet doesn't even model some of the talents in a 31/0/30 build - they are just THAT bad.

For reference: WWS Scoreboard Check out Teron Gorefiend - #4 without either warglaive and no Darkmoon Faire buff. I know what I'm talking about. Hanos/Nessala knows what he's talking about.
#1865SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Vulajin
In other news, I've updated the first post again. I removed the spec ranking charts entirely, I felt they were misleading and pointless because they only applied to a very specific set of gear and buffs and even then only in one particular spreadsheet model. Most of spec choice boils down to what kind of weapons you have anyway, and I can't make swords drop for anyone. I also fixed up the EP weights, it's no longer a dubious section, and I reduced the number of examples since, honestly, how hard is it to figure out the EP system?

As always, feedback is welcome.
#1866SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Aldriana
Not that I'm disagreeing with either Latito or Hanos (although I do think they probably could have phrased things a little more politely) - I just wanted to make a brief comment regarding WWS Scoreboard. Now, I'm not saying it isn't a fun point of comparison, and I'm not saying it doesn't take good gear and skill to get onto it. However, I think the larger influence - by a lot - in terms of who is on the scoreboard is a matter of who's guild is most willing to do the insane group buff/heroism/etc stacking necessary for the most ludicrous number. This is particularly true in Hyjal where UF stacking trumps just about everything else; but even on Teron, if your guild is willing to give you a Fury Warrior w/Solarian's Sapphire, a totem-twisting Enhancement Shaman, a Feral Druid, and a Ret Pally (or whatever) as your group + rotate 3-4 heroisms to you + keep Imp FF + CoR up on the boss (and so on), that's going cover a lot of ground in terms of gear/spec minutiae; thus, I'd caution people not to take WWS *too* strongly as a matter of skill.

And now, much as it pains me to do so, I do actually have to disagree with my esteemed colleagues and (sigh) agree with you - you have actually managed to bungle your gear and spec to the extent that SnD doesn't actually make sense.

You currently have 1792 AP, 31,41% crit chance, 145 hit rating, a 98 DPS MH, and a 91 DPS OH. 1792 AP increases your raw DPS per weapon by 128. With a 19% miss chance, a 6% chance to be dodged, glancing blows, and your 31% crit chance, your expected unmitigated damage per hit is pretty much equal to your base damage (1-.19-.06-.06+.31 = 1). Thus your MH autoattack does 226 DPS, and your OH autoattack does 219/2 = 110 DPS, for a total of 336 DPS. A high-armor boss with only Sunder and Faerie Fire as armor debuffs, plus your 750 passive armor pen, has an effective Armor Value of about 3700; thus, your autoattacks do 74% of your unmitigated damage; hence, each second of autoattacking does 249 DPS. Thus, a 5-pt SnD - which effectively gives 6.3 seconds of extra autoattack - gives you a benefit of roughly 1569 damage.

Rupture, on the other hand, does (1000 + .24 * 1792) * 1.3 (Serrated Blades) * 1.3 (Mangle) = 2417 damage, which is actually quite a bit more.

Now at this point, you might be saying "okay, sure, I believe that *unbuffed* rupture might be better, but surely there's no way with raid buffs this continues to be true". Well, regretably, it is. Lets say we throw in an extra 5% crit and 1000 AP for buffs. This increases the damage of Rupture by 1000 * .24 * 1.3 * 1.3 = 406 to 2822. It increases base SnD damage with each hand by 71.5 DPS, or about 107 DPS between the two hands, taking raw DPS to 443; the multiplier on this to get to unmitigated damage is now 1.05 (due to the extra crit) giving 465; reducing this by armor gives autoattack DPS of 344; times 6.3 seconds per SnD is still only 2167 damage. Closer, to be sure, but still inferior.

So, the takeaway is: yes, given your bizzare spec and ridiculous gear choices, you have actually succeeded in bumping Rupture over SnD as the superior finisher, so you are correct to not use it. But you'd still gain a heck of a lot of DPS by resocketing hit/agi and speccing combat, TSH, or Mutilate.

And for those of you who were wondering: a rogue with normal gearing would have at least another 10% hit plus DW Spec, which boosts the SnD damage in the buffed case to ~2750; and Imp SnD adds another 45%, bumping it up to almost 4k. So with the conventional specs (Combat, TSH, etc.) SnD is still clearly better. It's just that if you have pathetically low hit and Serrated Blades but not DWSpec or Imp SnD, Rupture catches up.
#1867SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Hanos
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
Not that I'm disagreeing with either Latito or Hanos (although I do think they probably could have phrased things a little more politely) - I just wanted to make a brief comment regarding WWS Scoreboard. Now, I'm not saying it isn't a fun point of comparison, and I'm not saying it doesn't take good gear and skill to get onto it.
I have to agree with this. Basically high WWS parses are a full guild effort, you have to stack the raid for the fight in a way that you can't use for an entire clear.

I was lucky enough to get my guild to do one high DPS run at Teron, and by that I mean we actually got everyone to use consumables for a fight for once (farm status = taking it easy), we only did it once, we didn't have our A Team online, and the raid wasn't fully optimized and I still hit almost 2600 DPS.

However, especially on a fight like Teron where the value of Heroism is so high due to now short it is, you could perform exactly the same in 2 different raids and see a 700+ DPS difference just due to kill time and Heroisms. Guilds like Vis Maior, Abananax and Disbanded that actually make a guild effort at it are going to be out of reach of the best geared and played person in a guild that doesn't.

It would be really interesting if there was some completely independent DPS benchmark like the old Patchwerk, but currently you have to dig through the parses and break them down to get anything approaching an accurate comparison.
#1868SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Latito
Fair enough, Ald. I certainly agree - Buff stacking is going to be the biggest source of damage difference for anyone on WWS Scoreboard. Granted you certainly need to know what your doing and have good gear to get on there in the first place.. a rogue with chained Unholy Frenzies is just plain going to do more damage than one without. As for Teron, I realize my guild is a big in the "extreme" end of things what with taking 3 healers and all and optimizing groups quite heavily for dps. That said, the warrior in my group does not use a Solarians Trinket, I get 1 Bloodlust and no Imp FF. And even so - most of that you can pick out from WWS if you read between the lines. But yea, I'm not saying I'm the best, just trying to add a little bit more credibility that "I'm right because I say so". And yes, WWS Scoreboard IS fun. Not a lot left to do otherwise at this point . Maybe I shouldn't of opened that can of worms though..

As for the Rupture > SnD stuff.. wow. I'm not sure what surprised me more, the fact you put in the time and effort to work that out (ok, 3 minutes vs countless hours on the spreadsheet.. guess I shouldn't be surprised at all) or the fact someone managed to find a build and gearset where Rupture actually beats SnD.

On the topic of politeness - sure, we could be more polite. But really if someone is doing something that wrong it often takes more than a polite "Sorry, I think you could do better if you tried XYZ" to get them to realize there is a pretty good reason why their "amazing discovery" isn't covered anywhere. I'd be happy to help someone improve their performance - I do so quite regularly for other rogues on my server (friends, guildmates, alts of friends, rogue-friends of friends, etc). If however you're going to try and pitch the idea that your vastly inferior spec is somehow viable, I feel as though I owe it to other potentially unsure rogues to shut down that inferior spec quickly and abruptly.
#1869SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Kukulkan
Originally Posted by Vulajin View Post
In other news, I've updated the first post again. I removed the spec ranking charts entirely, I felt they were misleading and pointless because they only applied to a very specific set of gear and buffs and even then only in one particular spreadsheet model. Most of spec choice boils down to what kind of weapons you have anyway, and I can't make swords drop for anyone. I also fixed up the EP weights, it's no longer a dubious section, and I reduced the number of examples since, honestly, how hard is it to figure out the EP system?

As always, feedback is welcome.
Im just wondering what changes happend or coming that change the EP weights of t6 (16/41+4) EP so dratic?

1hit rating 2.23
1crit rating 1.57
1AP 1.00
1haste 2.19
1agil 1.90
1armor pen 0.32
1 Exp rating 2.56

To

1hit rating 2.40
1crit rating 1.67
1AP 1.00
1haste 2.16
1agil 2.16
1armor pen 0.38
1 Exp rating 2.74
#1870SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Hanos
Originally Posted by Latito View Post
On the topic of politeness - sure, we could be more polite. But really if someone is doing something that wrong it often takes more than a polite "Sorry, I think you could do better if you tried XYZ" to get them to realize there is a pretty good reason why their "amazing discovery" isn't covered anywhere. I'd be happy to help someone improve their performance - I do so quite regularly for other rogues on my server (friends, guildmates, alts of friends, rogue-friends of friends, etc). If however you're going to try and pitch the idea that your vastly inferior spec is somehow viable, I feel as though I owe it to other potentially unsure rogues to shut down that inferior spec quickly and abruptly.
I couldn't agree more! Basically these boards are viewed as a place where people can come to get the right answer, where stuff has been tested, and we can back it up with facts, not ideas and feelings. People who come here and ask about a spec or a gearing decision are greeted warmly, and receive all the help they could want, hell we even plug their gear into the spreadsheet for them. However, people who come here and start making statements, based on napkin math, feelings and personal opinion, and stating things like "HAI GUYZ, LOC WAT I DID, I R 1377!1!@!", and talking about how "This is the best way to play this spec, and this is ideal", if we don't curb stomp it early and hard some poor rogue will come along, read it, go "Cool, I want to try that", and end up getting shafted by bad info.

I like to think I have helped a ton of people with spec and gear advice, explained mechanics, etc., however I will be the first to admit that I my not the nicest of people and unlike Ald, I let my feeling/personality show a little more, and posts like the ones he made make my blood boil (someone else did the same thing a couple weeks ago - with similar results).
#1871SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Hanos
Originally Posted by Kukulkan View Post
Im just wondering what changes happend or coming that change the EP weights of t6 (16/41+4) EP so dratic?

1hit rating 2.23
1crit rating 1.57
1AP 1.00
1haste 2.19
1agil 1.90
1armor pen 0.32
1 Exp rating 2.56

To

1hit rating 2.40
1crit rating 1.67
1AP 1.00
1haste 2.16
1agil 2.16
1armor pen 0.38
1 Exp rating 2.74
More stats simply make everything worth more, I am assuming you are comparing the values at different tiers of gear. Try adding 100 crit rating, 400 AP, and 100 Haste to either spreadsheet and see what happens to the EP Weights. Everything still has the same relative vlaue, it is simply worth more.
#1872SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Vulajin
Originally Posted by Kukulkan View Post
Im just wondering what changes happend or coming that change the EP weights of t6 (16/41+4) EP so dratic?
The last version of the EP charts used a lackluster set of buffs and also left out [Dragonspine Trophy] from the "model" gear used to calculate them. As always, the EP values are general guidelines, if you have any reason to doubt their applicability to your specific gear and raid buff situation (note that I've listed out the raid buffs that were used this time), you should consult the Gear Spreadsheet.
#1873SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Aldriana
Originally Posted by Vulajin View Post
In other news, I've updated the first post again. I removed the spec ranking charts entirely, I felt they were misleading and pointless because they only applied to a very specific set of gear and buffs and even then only in one particular spreadsheet model. Most of spec choice boils down to what kind of weapons you have anyway, and I can't make swords drop for anyone. I also fixed up the EP weights, it's no longer a dubious section, and I reduced the number of examples since, honestly, how hard is it to figure out the EP system?

As always, feedback is welcome.
With Spinels now being vendor-purchasable, it's probably now feasible to socket them in stuff; I might thus rewrite the section on epic gems a bit to allow this option.

Originally Posted by Latito View Post
As for the Rupture > SnD stuff.. wow. I'm not sure what surprised me more, the fact you put in the time and effort to work that out (ok, 3 minutes vs countless hours on the spreadsheet.. guess I shouldn't be surprised at all) or the fact someone managed to find a build and gearset where Rupture actually beats SnD.
To be honest, I was originally doing some numbers to try to add some evidence to the parade of criticism - to date we'd been spending a lot of time asserting that he was wrong, but hadn't actually supported it with too much evidence. Which is not to say that we were wrong, just that I figured a more analytical slant might help get the point across. I was as surprised as anyone when the numbers worked out the way they did, and had to go back and change the tone of my post after I finished the calculations.

I'd also note that it's more the spec than the gear, per se; specifically, the combat of Serrated Blades (increased Rupture damage), none of the talents that boost SnD damage (no Imp SnD, no DW Spec, no Precision, no Combat Potency, etc.), and none of the buffs that help SnD (notably WF). This is probably going to be a fundamental property of middling-subtlety no-combat builds - if you ran the numbers on the ever-popular 43/0/18 spec I imagine you'd get a similar answer. In fact, I almost wonder if 43/0/18 might not to better with a Rupture/Eviscerate cycle than an SnD/Rupture cycle. Not that it's a great build anyway, but it's perhaps worth thinking about.
#1874SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Vulajin
Anything related to 2.4 (such as increased availability of epic gems) is intentionally still left out of the first post and will be added in the near future, since it seems like Sunwell testing is nearing its end (at least, I hope, would hate to see a Kil'jaeden kill on PTR).
#1875SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Aldriana
Originally Posted by Vulajin View Post
Anything related to 2.4 (such as increased availability of epic gems) is intentionally still left out of the first post and will be added in the near future, since it seems like Sunwell testing is nearing its end (at least, I hope, would hate to see a Kil'jaeden kill on PTR).
Ah, okay, no problem, then. I suspect we still have another ~2 resets to go on PTR, as in order to tune Kil'jaeden they probably will let some people fight him. Whether or not they tune him to be killable or not is an open question, but given that M'uru still needs some serious balancing I'd guess they'll give us at least another day or two to mess with him and then move on to testing Kil'jaeden.

Oh, and re: the rudeness thing. I wasn't so much criticizing, per se, as commenting. Some of us have more abrupt styles of critique than others, and that's fine. And I really have no objection to deflating the egos of people who believe that they know better than the combined efforts of the theorycrafting community over the last two years. It just seemed perhaps a bit over the top in this case, as his original post, while certainly sorely misled, wasn't *quite* asserting that we were all idiots - it reads (to me) more as "hey, I tried this, it seems to sort of work, why hasn't there been any discussion of it?" more than "you all are idiots". And the response - particularly Hanos's lengthy post - struck me as getting a bit repetitive on the "you're an idiot" point. This is not to say that he isn't sorely misled; simply that I think he'd probably get the point after the first half dozen assertions to that effect. It's certainly a little more over-the-top than *I* would have gone, but I'm not really objecting.
#1876SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3juscuzusuck
Hey to someone who knows rogue GEAR and JUST stuff like that

ok i know the basics of the whole thing you guys wrote it was very helpful but i had the thought what if a rogue grabbed druid tanking gear? and dodge and stamina chant and gem it up to where your upwards high 30%-low 40% dodge range with high hp and high armor for like pvp you would be sacraficing lots of ap and lots of crit and what not but you would have surviveablility which rogues never had we wouldn't be soo squishy. and even though we are sacraficing all that if we just had weapons with killer dmg like merc. glad swords or what ever you would still pump out a good amount of dmg on things. so i was just wondering if it would work like im thinking it would?

Originally Posted by juscuzusuck View Post
Hey to someone who knows rogue GEAR and JUST stuff like that

ok i know the basics of the whole thing you guys wrote it was very helpful but i had the thought what if a rogue grabbed druid tanking gear? and dodge and stamina chant and gem it up to where your upwards high 30%-low 40% dodge range with high hp and high armor for like pvp you would be sacraficing lots of ap and lots of crit and what not but you would have surviveablility which rogues never had we wouldn't be soo squishy. and even though we are sacraficing all that if we just had weapons with killer dmg like merc. glad swords or what ever you would still pump out a good amount of dmg on things. so i was just wondering if it would work like im thinking it would?

and to add to it im judging some of this off the druid tanking gear in 2.4 from badges
#1877SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3saedo
Originally Posted by juscuzusuck View Post
Hey to someone who knows rogue GEAR and JUST stuff like that

ok i know the basics of the whole thing you guys wrote it was very helpful but i had the thought what if a rogue grabbed druid tanking gear? and dodge and stamina chant and gem it up to where your upwards high 30%-low 40% dodge range with high hp and high armor for like pvp you would be sacraficing lots of ap and lots of crit and what not but you would have surviveablility which rogues never had we wouldn't be soo squishy. and even though we are sacraficing all that if we just had weapons with killer dmg like merc. glad swords or what ever you would still pump out a good amount of dmg on things. so i was just wondering if it would work like im thinking it would?
You'll probably be a decent feral tank. In bear form. When rogues get it. Until we do, this doesn't serve our main and only role as dps in raids.
#1878SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Dontmindme
You will probably be better served asking those questions in the PvP forum. This thread is primarily about rogues and raiding.
#1879SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Acyrith
Hello, I am currently in the process of dusting off my programming skills a bit and decided I might try implementing a rogue combat simulator.

What I'm hoping (though not really expecting) is that there might be a single location out there from which I would be able to collect most of the necessary constants and formulas, etc. Between wowwiki, this thread, and the Accepted Theorycrafting thread also on this forum I can find most (likely all) of what I need, just hoping that it might be all condensed as a single list of "Rogue Mechanics" or something of the like somewhere.

If anyone knows of such a thing I would greatly appreciate being pointed in the direction of it.
#1880SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Coffin Burier
Originally Posted by Professor Hurt View Post
First gather a very solid collection of WWS data (for a full raid or two) in your current spec and post it here so we can at least see how you currently perform. Then compare that to:
a) your build but weaving in SnD
b) your build with a +hit focus weaving in SnD
c) another build entirely, perhaps combat or mutilate, played the way the opening post in this thread dictates
Thank you all guys. I just wanted first to share informations about this spec and how I thought it would work better. I never doubt that in Combat Sword spec I would fairly increase my damage over other rogue or mage or lock. I'm here also to learn more about a spec I never tryed to play (it may helps my raid mates... a simple example... other rogue eat +20 Agilty instead of +20 Hit Rating).

I don't want to talk badly about my guild... but I just have to let you know that we had I pala retry in our dps roster... with a dps lower than the main tank, but we had it... due to a "fun" political of our Guild Founder. We also have two arcane/fire mages... the strange thing is that they only play in PvE. My guild mates lack in dps and that has never helped me comparing my dps with their. As someone of you said, I may not change my spec, cos I love it even if it sucks. I'd just like to take the best out of it. I already knew crit rating is not the best way to use my available sockets, but I consider it necessary to reach a decent crit rating (it start to be good at 30%, but would be far better at 35%)... Seal Fate becomes useless if you don't crit. I'd like to have enought agility to reach 35% crit chance, but I don't have it.

Two more things... I wrote my stats just to let you know how I oriented my stats (chosing every single drop carefully and waiting for it to drop). I also posted my Eviscerate numbers just to let you understand how much damage increase I reaceave from the armor penetration (cos you all know that Eviscerate damage is not increased by AP). I never thought that seeing big numbers means you're doing a great dps... I actually never see my numbers, due to my close point of view... I only read them in Recount.

This evening I tryed to use SnD at Hydross... that worked greatly! I used to only use Hemo and Eviscerate, but I have to admit that a cicle 5s/5e worked perfectly with an almost perfect timing (the first T4 bonus really helped in this). It was nice to see that at the end of the game I was the first melee for total damage. The percentage of melee damage has been incresed to 55%, then 13% Eviscerate and 32% Hemo.

I also tryed to use IP in main hand and DP in off hand on trash mobs (without SnD)... it was hard to stack DP... never seen more than 4 stacks, the same stacks that very often I've never been able to refresh.

I'll try and let you know more as soon has I have time to take a look at the Spreedsheet (that was the first thing I found on this forum, but wasn't what I was looking for at the beginning).

P.S.
Just to let you know... in PvP I do pretty well with a lock. Arena Rating doen't really help understanding how good this spec can be in PvP... the biggest problems are mine low equip (I've started doing arena recently and don't have one single Veangeful or Merciless Gladiator item (except for the Throuwing Axe) and the fact that on my server we usually meet full Veangeful equipped characthers at 1600 rating. I hope it is not like this in every server cos it's really unfair.
#1881SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Hanos
Originally Posted by Coffin Burier View Post
I also posted my Eviscerate numbers just to let you understand how much damage increase I reaceave from the armor penetration (cos you all know that Eviscerate damage is not increased by AP).
Well actually... it does increase with AP:

Eviscerate	Rank 10
35 Energy	5 yd range
Instant
Requires Melee Weapon
Finishing move that causes damage per combo point:
  1 point  : [245 + AP * 0.03]-[365 + AP * 0.03] damage
  2 points: [430 + AP * 0.06]-[550 + AP * 0.06] damage
  3 points: [615 + AP * 0.09]-[735 + AP * 0.09] damage
  4 points: [800 + AP * 0.12]-[920 + AP * 0.12] damage
  5 points: [985 + AP * 0.15]-[1105 + AP * 0.15] damage
Sorry, but wrong again.
#1882SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Latito
On the helpful side of posts..

-Ret paladins are generally an overall net dps increase for the raid over a rogue. Never go more than 3 (Rogues + Ret Pallies) though. Ret paladins, just like arms warriors (and to a lesser extent rogues and fury warriors) REQUIRE windfury. If they have WF and still are behind the MT (wow..), get them to read the Ret Paladin thread. [Paladin] Retribution DPS Theorycraft Hell, even w/o WF they should be reading that thread to get ahead of an MT. Str > Crit. Get a slow weapon. CS on cooldown. Hit cap is pretty damn good.

-Since you're using IP on your MH, I'm going to assume that your guild either doesn't have shaman, or your raid leader needs to get better at organizing groups. Given the dps your guild is putting out, your tank either has absolutely no need for WF (assuming its a warrior), isn't a warrior, or completely sucks anyways. All of these point to not giving the tank a shaman if you only have 1 shaman. If on the other hand you are in a group with a shaman.. stop poisoning your MH. Despite your low hit rating, I'm going to assume WF is still better for you. If that is not the case.. yet another reason why your spec is so bad. If you don't have a shaman, with a hit rating that low and no SnD, it may almost be beneficial to use DP on both hands. Granted, using SnD would certainly be the more obvious solution.

-Arcane/Fire mages. Fire is good. Arcane is bad. Your mages should read the Mage TC thread and spec (I think) 2/48/11. Scorch only enough to keep the debuff up, then chain fireballs.

-You *should* see your damage while fighting. Not seeing your damage means you can't be sure your character is actually in melee range hitting the target. Standing next to your target with your character swinging the weapons is over half the battle. Be a good melee dps'er - stick on your target.
#1883SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Coffin Burier
Originally Posted by Latito View Post
If you don't have a shaman, with a hit rating that low and no SnD, it may almost be beneficial to use DP on both hands. Granted, using SnD would certainly be the more obvious solution.
I have many +hit rating items (just in case of combat respec) and may try them with SnD to see if an SnD could be more efficient than Rupture. For now I'd just like to try and see what is the best combination of Poisons/Talents keeping my usual gear on and without using SnD... do you think I would still need Improved Poisons 3/5 with DP/DP? Unlyckily we have only one Shaman Resto in our guild and he is usually with dps casters or healers, due to Mana Spring Totem. Could we have a better use of this class even if it's Resto (I don't know much about shamans)?

As you can see, I've surprised you in some way... well... Aldriana did! :P

I also have 5/5 points in opportunity just to increase my Garrote damage and yes, I've tryed to increase my bleeding as better as I could (the +10% AP talents in Subtlety tree is one of the last changes in my spec, not just to increase Melee and Phisycal damage, but bleedings as well). That's why I mentioned my DOT uptime diring raids, before.

Sorry if I've exposed my opinions in such an entusiastic way... before saying anything I should have write : "DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME!". To clarify... I would never suggest my spec to anybody other than me.

And finally... thank you for the info about Eviscerate. I really didn't know anything about that AP increase. I remember when is was clearly wrote on the abiliy: "Damage is increased by attack power". When I didn't see that anymore (after a past patch) I thought that AP wouldn't increase AP anymore.

I'll let you know more as soon as I read the spreadsheet. Thank you again!

P.S.
Is there any discussion about the spec Combat Potency/Hemo? It should be 0/40/21. I've been surprised that the 3 branches spec you mentioned before (Hemo/Ass/Improved SnD) is such a good one (even if it's not the best).
#1884SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Aldriana
Originally Posted by Coffin Burier View Post
Is there any discussion about the spec Combat Potency/Hemo? It should be 0/40/21. I've been surprised that the 3 branches spec you mentioned before (Hemo/Ass/Improved SnD) is such a good one (even if it's not the best).
If you search around I'm sure you can find extensive comparisons of both it and the 0/39/22. It is inferior to TSH for most people.
#1885SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Jamu
Originally Posted by Coffin Burier View Post
Is there any discussion about the spec Combat Potency/Hemo? It should be 0/40/21. I've been surprised that the 3 branches spec you mentioned before (Hemo/Ass/Improved SnD) is such a good one (even if it's not the best).
It's another spec that just doesn't work.

0 Assasination = no Relentless Strikes, Ruthlessness, or Malice - the bread and butter of raid specs. Very difficult to maintain a decent cycle without these. I've tried raiding AR/Prep (0/31/30 - an experiment in avoiding respecs for raid)... and it was frustrating trying to maintain any sort of decent dps cycle (I might have gotten 5s/3r most of the time?). My DPS was easily 10% lower than it should have been, and I learned very quickly the value of the first 11 points spent in the Assassination tree on a raid spec, which is why I spend the 50g to respec every time I raid.

40 combat = pick up Potency... which means you can maintain a better cycle... but you don't have Surprise Attacks, which is just flat out HUGELY useful. Finishing moves can't be dodged = very VERY nice for maintaining a reliable cycle. If you're going to go deep into combat, why ignore the solid 41 point talent in the tree? Not only that, but you've picked up Potency at the cost of Relentless Strikes, Ruthlessness, and Malice. Potency might make up for RS and Ruth... but certainly not 5% lost crit from Malice.

21 sub = hemo. Hemo is great as a cheap 35 energy combo point producer. The hemo debuff is nice. This is OK if you like hemo (many here will say it's crap - I tend to disagree, but am also learning far more of its limitations since messing with combat mace+sword). But if you're going to go 40 points into combat... you'd be better off doing a cookie cutter combat spec than hemo.

In all, you have another "looks good to me" spec that is, quite frankly, very much lacking in every major way. I'm sure there will be others who will be far more in depth on things, as this is just a rough look at how bad 0/40/21 would compare to traditional combat or TSH builds.
#1886SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Left
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
So, the takeaway is: yes, given your bizzare spec and ridiculous gear choices, you have actually succeeded in bumping Rupture over SnD as the superior finisher, so you are correct to not use it. But you'd still gain a heck of a lot of DPS by resocketing hit/agi and speccing combat, TSH, or Mutilate.
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
I'd also note that it's more the spec than the gear, per se; specifically, the combat of Serrated Blades (increased Rupture damage), none of the talents that boost SnD damage (no Imp SnD, no DW Spec, no Precision, no Combat Potency, etc.), and none of the buffs that help SnD (notably WF). This is probably going to be a fundamental property of middling-subtlety no-combat builds - if you ran the numbers on the ever-popular 43/0/18 spec I imagine you'd get a similar answer. In fact, I almost wonder if 43/0/18 might not to better with a Rupture/Eviscerate cycle than an SnD/Rupture cycle. Not that it's a great build anyway, but it's perhaps worth thinking about.
Hmm, wow. I guess I may have to rescind my statement about never having seen a rogue where SnD was not the #1 priority finisher.

I was using WF in my set of assumptions; I guess I shouldn't have. (When I pulled his gear over from the armory I just used the DPS spreadsheet buff set that was set up for me, which included WF. That's where the 5s/4r cycle I mentioned came from as well.)

One thing we didn't account for, though, is the difference in poison damage that using SnD will make. Unfortunately, I can't pull up his direct stats at the moment due to armory being bugged out, but I did run simulations for poison damage with and without SnD for 18% miss both in the case of no Vile Poisons and full Vile Poisons. (He has stated he runs 3/5 Improved Poisons, so I made that assumption.) In any case, using SnD to increase weapon speed ups the deadly poison DPS by around 5.5 DPS due to higher average stacking. It's not a lot, but it's still 16*5.5 = 88 damage in favor of SnD that we neglected before. Similarly, over the 16 seconds of Rupture he'd gain a 30% increase in IP procs (if he's using IP) if he was using SnD instead, which is, roughly... (16/(1.5)*(1 - 0.18 - 0.06)*0.36*170)*0.3 ~= 149 damage, which again should be added to SnD's contribution. (Again, I'm assuming 3/5 Improved Poisons here.) For what you have calculated, it's still not enough to make up the gap, but it's getting a lot closer.

On last thing: does SnD, being a % based haste instead of a rating based haste effect, increase the proc chance of things like Mongoose and Executioner, or is their proc chance calculated off weapon speed after all haste effects (percentage and base) have been applied?

Last edited by Left : 03/12/08 at 9:54 AM. Reason: Clarification
#1887SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
NvidiaN
Regarding 2pt4 set bonus and addition of my first t5: last night two pairs of the rogue t5 pants token dropped, and to prevent them from being disenchanted, I had to take a pair. Now currently I'm using t4 legs/gloves, so I have the 2pt4 set bonus. My question is this: assuming I get another t5 piece (say gloves for example), do I still lose DPS from the same two pieces of t4? If so, even if I respec for things like improved eviscerate? I'm really not happy about this, and we don't run Mag anymore for me to be able to get the t4 chest, which would be the only other non-downgrade t4 piece I could get to make up for the lost bonus.

I'm pretty sure the answer to my question is that 2pt5 set bonus < 2pt4 set bonus, and that rupture is always better than eviscerate except on bleed immune bosses, but meh...I have to ask the experts.

Also, after doing some research on t5, as well as gear I seem to be getting recently (e.g. bladeangel's money belt, t5 legs), I'm noticing that the higher I get in the "gear chain", the lower my +hit goes (ex: I lose ~26 hit going from t4 legs to t5. I've been socketing with +4/+4 gems, but now I'm wondering if I need to go with +8 hit's. I'm sitting at 262 hit without buffs and without t5 legs. Suggestions here would also be greatly appreciated.

Last edited by NvidiaN : 03/12/08 at 11:27 AM.
#1888SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Hanos
Originally Posted by NvidiaN View Post
Regarding 2pt4 set bonus and addition of my first t5: last night two pairs of the rogue t5 pants token dropped, and to prevent them from being disenchanted, I had to take a pair. Now currently I'm using t4 legs/gloves, so I have the 2pt4 set bonus. My question is this: assuming I get another t5 piece (say gloves for example), do I still lose DPS from the same two pieces of t4? If so, even if I respec for things like improved eviscerate? I'm really not happy about this, and we don't run Mag anymore for me to be able to get the t4 chest, which would be the only other non-downgrade t4 piece I could get to make up for the lost bonus.

I'm pretty sure the answer to my question is that 2pt5 set bonus < 2pt4 set bonus, and that rupture is always better than eviscerate except on bleed immune bosses, but meh...I have to ask the experts.

Also, after doing some research on t5, as well as gear I seem to be getting recently (e.g. bladeangel's money belt, t5 legs), I'm noticing that the higher I get in the "gear chain", the lower my +hit goes (ex: I lose ~26 hit going from t4 legs to t5. I've been socketing with +4/+4 gems, but now I'm wondering if I need to go with +8 hit's. I'm sitting at 262 hit without buffs and without t5 legs. Suggestions here would also be greatly appreciated.
If only we had spreadsheets where we could check this type of stuff... someone should really put in a couple thousand hours or work and get on that... Gear questions have way too much to do with your individual gear and spec to be answered based on the limited information you provided, check the spreadsheets.

Regarding losing hit, as far as I can tell T5 was intentionally mis itemized to make it only very slightly better then T4, so that T6 and Sunwell gear could both be significant upgrades. Losing the hit isn't a big deal if the gear is an upgrade, but odds are you will want to use +8 Hit Gems in as many slots as you can.

Edit - After looking at your armory, both the T4 Helm and Shoulders are an upgrade for you (shoulders simply for stamina and set bonuses), and there is absolutely no reason you shouldn't be clearing Kara every week, get both of them.
#1889SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
NvidiaN
Originally Posted by Hanos View Post
If only we had spreadsheets where we could check this type of stuff... someone should really put in a couple thousand hours or work and get on that... Gear questions have way too much to do with your individual gear and spec to be answered based on the limited information you provided, check the spreadsheets.

Regarding losing hit, as far as I can tell T5 was intentionally mis itemized to make it only very slightly better then T4, so that T6 and Sunwell gear could both be significant upgrades. Losing the hit isn't a big deal if the gear is an upgrade, but odds are you will want to use +8 Hit Gems in as many slots as you can.

Edit - After looking at your armory, both the T4 Helm and Shoulders are an upgrade for you (shoulders simply for stamina and set bonuses), and there is absolutely no reason you shouldn't be clearing Kara every week, get both of them.
I use the spreadsheet often actually. I don't see how t4 helm is an upgrade. With RED in the helm, t5 pants equipped, I still am -6.99 buffed DPS from where I am right now. Without equipping t5 legs, it's a 8.79 buffed DPS loss.

As far as the shoulders go, with the same glyph and gemming (which I've assumed for the other discussed "upgrades"), it's a 1.46 DPS loss.

What are you doing that you're getting this increase? I like to think that I'm using this right. I've passed both those items several times simply because I was using the sheet and it came up with numbers indicating that those t4 pieces were mild-moderate downgrades. Unless you're saying that I should be getting say, t4 shoulders, because I gain the set bonus again, and 8 stam?

-e- Correction, 11 stam if I get the set bonus.

Last edited by NvidiaN : 03/12/08 at 12:01 PM.
#1890SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Stryke
NvidiaN - by looking at your armory profile, it would seem that a RED in a T4 helm would not be activated for you since you are not fulfilling the requirements of at least 2 blue gems slotted in your gear. That would result in a bit of a dps loss, right there, and I know that one of the spreadsheets tracks what gems you have slotted and will activate or deactivate the meta-gem properties accordingly.
#1891SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Aldriana
Originally Posted by Left View Post
On last thing: does SnD, being a % based haste instead of a rating based haste effect, increase the proc chance of things like Mongoose and Executioner, or is their proc chance calculated off weapon speed after all haste effects (percentage and base) have been applied?
I'm fairly certain that PPM effects work off final attack speed, after all haste effects, both percentage and not, such that using SnD, BF, Mongoose, or any other such thing still does not increase your mongoose/executioner uptime.

Only fixed-% procs will be increased by SnD, and only the ones with no or short internal cooldowns will be increased significantly; off the top of my head, this list basically consists of Sword Spec (which he doesn't have), Combat Potency (likewise), and WF/Poisons. The fact that I neglected the last one in my earlier calculations does in fact mean that SnD fairs a little better, as you've shown; but I don't think poison makes enough difference to totally close the gap; and, frankly, I'm not sure even WF would be enough to make up 500 damage from 1 SnD.
#1892SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Raconzor
I don't have the spreadsheet handy on this computer ... however, consider the trade-offs on going from your current helm to T4.

Assuming you use glinting noble topaz and RED,
+48 agility (!!)
+3% crit damage
-6 AP
-13 hit rating
-42 crit rating

converting the agility a bit,
1.2% crit and 48 ap ... so you're really netting 42 ap, and losing .7% crit chance ... I think the benefit of the 3% crit damage must outweigh the hit rating unless your gear has you in a very special circumstance that values hit rating extremely highly.

Note: According to fixed AEP values 40 ap > 1% crit, so 42 vs .7% ...
#1893SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Arindelest
Originally Posted by Jamu View Post
21 sub = hemo. Hemo is great as a cheap 35 energy combo point producer. The hemo debuff is nice. This is OK if you like hemo (many here will say it's crap - I tend to disagree, but am also learning far more of its limitations since messing with combat mace+sword). But if you're going to go 40 points into combat... you'd be better off doing a cookie cutter combat spec than hemo.
Just to clarify a quick misconception: Hemo itself is a massive DPS increase for one talent point, rivaled only by Relentless Strikes, and much superior to Surprise Attacks. The problem with most Hemo specs is not Hemorrhage itself, but rather the spending of 17 talent points in places that don't actually increase your DPS.
#1894SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Darkfader
+ crit vs + hit question

Hi,

Thanks for the fantastic info on rogue DPS. I have a question regarding the EP that I don't understand.

Atk. Power | 1.00 | 1.00 | 1.00 | 1.00
Hit Rating | 2.32 | 2.20 | 2.19 | 2.00
Crit Rating | 1.64 | 1.56 | 1.51 | 1.49

The post has +hit as much better than +crit. +10 hit = .63% hit chance, +10 crit = .45% crit chance, which backs up the rating above. But nearly every rogue will be hit capped on special attacks ie sinister strike. As an approximation 50% of rogue damage is normal attack (need the +hit) 25% is sinister strike (+hit no help) 25% rupture, poisons, etc.

Becuase +crit affects sinister strike, and +hit does not, the EP table shoule be something more like AP 1, hit rating and crit rating 2. Similar to how blizard has set the gem equivalency values.

Where is my mistake? Is there an analysis available of how the EPs were derived?

Thanks
#1895SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Coffin Burier
Originally Posted by Jamu View Post
40 combat = pick up Potency... which means you can maintain a better cycle... but you don't have Surprise Attacks
That's why I've been surprised by seeing TSH being a fairly good spec. I think I could never play without Surprise Attacks or Quick Recovery... I have a lv 70 feral druid and that's such a big waste of energy when a finisher get dodged. About gems... for a druid for example, there is no doubt that Agility and some Hit Rating are the gems you need (due to 25 Agi=1% Crit instead of the 40 Agi=1% Crit that you need to have with rogues... and that's why I choosed Crit Rating... anyway... don't try this at home).

I've tryed to run the Spreedsheet. Ok with the respec and many items, but still have problems changing the Main Hand Weapon to sword and then Merciless Gladiator Slicer, changing Backstab to Hemo and changing the original s1/s3/5r cicle to a something more similar to my usual cicles 5r/5r/5e.

This evening I may try your suggestions with poisons at ZA to the bear boss... let's hope there will be enought people to start.
#1896SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Vulajin
Originally Posted by Darkfader View Post
Hi,

Thanks for the fantastic info on rogue DPS. I have a question regarding the EP that I don't understand.

Atk. Power | 1.00 | 1.00 | 1.00 | 1.00
Hit Rating | 2.32 | 2.20 | 2.19 | 2.00
Crit Rating | 1.64 | 1.56 | 1.51 | 1.49

The post has +hit as much better than +crit. +10 hit = .63% hit chance, +10 crit = .45% crit chance, which backs up the rating above. But nearly every rogue will be hit capped on special attacks ie sinister strike. As an approximation 50% of rogue damage is normal attack (need the +hit) 25% is sinister strike (+hit no help) 25% rupture, poisons, etc.

Becuase +crit affects sinister strike, and +hit does not, the EP table shoule be something more like AP 1, hit rating and crit rating 2. Similar to how blizard has set the gem equivalency values.

Where is my mistake? Is there an analysis available of how the EPs were derived?

Thanks
Your mistake is only that you might have taken a step back and said "wait a minute, this is so blatantly obvious a train of thought, surely it has already been considered at some point."

Yes, it has been considered. Since combat rogues are heavily dependent on a lot of different procs (especially Windfury, sword spec, poisons, Combat Potency, and [Dragonspine Trophy] if you have it), hit rating maintains a great deal of its power regardless of whether your special attacks are capped or not.

Also, far more than 50% of your damage comes from white attacks as your gear level increases.

(edit) The EP values were derived from the Gear Spreadsheet, linked in the first post. The calculations are a bit too complex to replicate quickly here.
#1897SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Left
Originally Posted by Darkfader View Post
Hi,

Thanks for the fantastic info on rogue DPS. I have a question regarding the EP that I don't understand.

Atk. Power | 1.00 | 1.00 | 1.00 | 1.00
Hit Rating | 2.32 | 2.20 | 2.19 | 2.00
Crit Rating | 1.64 | 1.56 | 1.51 | 1.49

The post has +hit as much better than +crit. +10 hit = .63% hit chance, +10 crit = .45% crit chance, which backs up the rating above. But nearly every rogue will be hit capped on special attacks ie sinister strike. As an approximation 50% of rogue damage is normal attack (need the +hit) 25% is sinister strike (+hit no help) 25% rupture, poisons, etc.

Becuase +crit affects sinister strike, and +hit does not, the EP table shoule be something more like AP 1, hit rating and crit rating 2. Similar to how blizard has set the gem equivalency values.

Where is my mistake? Is there an analysis available of how the EPs were derived?

Thanks
In summary, (1) you are underestimating the % of damage that is white damage, (2) gem and stat equivalencies on Blizzard's part are different from what they actually mean in practice to various classes and specs within a class, and (3) you are missing a whole crapton of synergy from hit that occurs with combat builds, particularly Sword Spec, Windfury Attack, and Combat Potency. To elaborate on (2), Blizzard sets stat weights one way, but different classes find some stats more valuable than others. Enh. Shamans value crit rating over hit rating; rogues value hit rating over crit rating. Other classes have other weightings, depending on specs and skills.

The analysis is included in the two spreadsheets linked in the first post as well as in the last 76 pages of discussion in this thread, if you care to read it in detail. If not, just take what he posted at face value - it's right.

EDIT: Beaten to the punch. But you see the point.
#1898SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Hanos
Originally Posted by NvidiaN View Post
I use the spreadsheet often actually. I don't see how t4 helm is an upgrade. With RED in the helm, t5 pants equipped, I still am -6.99 buffed DPS from where I am right now. Without equipping t5 legs, it's a 8.79 buffed DPS loss.

As far as the shoulders go, with the same glyph and gemming (which I've assumed for the other discussed "upgrades"), it's a 1.46 DPS loss.

What are you doing that you're getting this increase? I like to think that I'm using this right. I've passed both those items several times simply because I was using the sheet and it came up with numbers indicating that those t4 pieces were mild-moderate downgrades. Unless you're saying that I should be getting say, t4 shoulders, because I gain the set bonus again, and 8 stam?

-e- Correction, 11 stam if I get the set bonus.
Right now you are using T4 legs and gloves, however, the T5 gloves are a huge upgrade, but you really want to keep the 2-piece bonus, so if you already have the T5 legs, then picking up the T4 shoulders lets you keep the 2-piece bonus and use your new T5 legs, same if you can pick up the T5 Gloves.

Regarding the helm, you didn't activate the Meta, make sure you have 2 blue or purple gems in your gear in the spreadsheet, I imagine it is a pretty significant DPS increase. I would also allow you to keep the 2-piece T4 bonus with some of the new gear you are getting in T5. The T4 Helm is a great item for a very long time assuming you can wear the shoulders, legs or chest (the gloves kind of suck).
#1899SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3NvidiaN
Originally Posted by Hanos View Post
Right now you are using T4 legs and gloves, however, the T5 gloves are a huge upgrade, but you really want to keep the 2-piece bonus, so if you already have the T5 legs, then picking up the T4 shoulders lets you keep the 2-piece bonus and use your new T5 legs, same if you can pick up the T5 Gloves.

Regarding the helm, you didn't activate the Meta, make sure you have 2 blue or purple gems in your gear in the spreadsheet, I imagine it is a pretty significant DPS increase. I would also allow you to keep the 2-piece T4 bonus with some of the new gear you are getting in T5. The T4 Helm is a great item for a very long time assuming you can wear the shoulders, legs or chest (the gloves kind of suck).
You were clearly right. I did the switching on the gem's and with the t4 helm/gloves, and t5 legs, I ended up with ~15 DPS increase. That is pretty good actually, heh. Guess I shouldn't have passed up t4 all those times. Thanks.
#1900SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3peppi
Hello, i am not sure if it has been covered before but should one use Warp Spring Coil over Madness of the Betrayer if you have executioner on mainhand, Boundless Agony and T6 gloves?
Would seem logical to me, but i am not sure how it turns out overall.
#1901SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Latito
Originally Posted by peppi View Post
Hello, i am not sure if it has been covered before but should one use Warp Spring Coil over Madness of the Betrayer if you have executioner on mainhand, Boundless Agony and T6 gloves?
Would seem logical to me, but i am not sure how it turns out overall.
Damn, if only someone had a tool that could like.. figure that out for you. Wouldn't that be great? Oh wait.. we do.

Step 1: Read the first post [Roguecraft 101]
Step 2: Use spreadsheet [Rogue Gear Spreadsheet] or [[Rogue] DPS Spreadsheet]
Step 3: Profit

In general, WSC is the better trinket provided you are not exceeding the Armor Pen cap on a boss. You should still be fine in that regard.

Last edited by Latito : 03/13/08 at 12:17 PM. Reason: Making this a useful post
#1902SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Jamu
Originally Posted by Coffin Burier View Post
That's why I've been surprised by seeing TSH being a fairly good spec. I think I could never play without Surprise Attacks or Quick Recovery... I have a lv 70 feral druid and that's such a big waste of energy when a finisher get dodged. About gems... for a druid for example, there is no doubt that Agility and some Hit Rating are the gems you need (due to 25 Agi=1% Crit instead of the 40 Agi=1% Crit that you need to have with rogues... and that's why I choosed Crit Rating... anyway... don't try this at home).

I've tryed to run the Spreedsheet. Ok with the respec and many items, but still have problems changing the Main Hand Weapon to sword and then Merciless Gladiator Slicer, changing Backstab to Hemo and changing the original s1/s3/5r cicle to a something more similar to my usual cicles 5r/5r/5e.

This evening I may try your suggestions with poisons at ZA to the bear boss... let's hope there will be enought people to start.
You just... don't... get it...

1) TSH works well because it has the necessary 11 points in Assassination, the core of all Combat talents (except Potency and Surprise attacks), and adds Hemo. The combination of Ruthlessness, Relentless Strikes, and Hemo costing only 35 energy is what makes it easy to maintain a solid 5s/5r cycle (without any T4 set pieces). The issue with TSH is the number of points spent to get Hemo that are put into non-dps talents (as was explained a few posts back). But if you really want to understand why TSH is a reasonable spec (although not ideal), read the hemo thread and stop being surprised.

2) Assuming that rogue mechanics work like druid mechanics is dead wrong. Different classes, things work very differently. So demanding Surprise Strikes or Quick Recovery because of how your Druid works? Just plain stupid. Learn more about rogue mechanics and you'll understand why SS and QR are nice... but other talents are far better.

3) Regarding gems. As mentioned in a recent post above... 40 AP is better than 1% crit. By gemming for crit rating instead of AGI, you are losing dps. Hell, since you are using deadliness... it may even be better to gem for AP and use the extra 10% from Deadliness to boost dps more than AGI gems would. Rogue's aren't druids. Don't think that because 40agi = 1% crit that crit rating is better, just because for druids it's easier to get crit from agi. Different classes... different mechanics... VERY different gem and gear needs. As has been pointed out by MANY people, you fail to understand the basics of rogue mechanics... and gem with crit when you should be doing AGI or AP. Stop thinking that a rogue works like a druid, and you *might* start to understand why people are shocked at your spec, gear, and cycle choices. Rogues *like* crit, but they don't *need* it at the expense of AP, AGI, Hit, and other important considerations.

4) If you use the spreadsheet and expect it to spit out your original crap 5r/5r/5e cycle... IT WON'T. Your cycle works better now only because of your truly odd spec and gear choices. As Aldriana pointed out... you have somehow found the ONE spec and gear set that breaks the normal mechanics. And for the record, this is NOT a good thing.

Apparently, you assumed that rogue mechanics worked like druid mechanics when you put your gear/spec together. No wonder you are so off in your understanding of how to play a rogue, and insist on rupture (a bleed effect) instead of SnD (a haste effect that increases white damage - rogues like white damage; druids in cat form... not so much importance on white damage because, well, they work completely differently than rogues!).
#1903SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Switchblade
I know this is somewhat off topic but today during hyjal trash we had some fun, just wondering if anyone out there with a faster speed record.
(FYI I'm a lefty with a G15 keyboard hence the default UI)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...208_225914.jpg
#1904SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3patcherke
Offhand badge dagger worse then Merciless PvP dagger?

I was comparing the new badge loot daggers, to see what it would do to DPS.
to my surprise I found out that the offhand was worse then my current OH (Merciless gladiator's shiv) (1 DPS)
To be honest, i cannot get why that is, i would assume that it would be otherwise.

to make the comparison :

Swift blade of uncertainty (SBOU)
103 DPS, 1.5 speed, 24 Hit rating, 44 AP

Merciless gladiator's shiv (MGS):
97.5 DPS,1.4 Speed, 10 HR, 19 CR, 30 AP


OK the MGS has got Crit rating, but the other has got a lot more Hit, of which I think it will make up for the CR loss.
In order to prove this, I altered the stats of the MGS to have the same HR of 24, AP of 44 and CR of 0, which resulted in a gain of 2 DPS.

So the gain of the MGS has to be lying in its speed.

Changing the dps from 97.5 to 103 and the speed from 1.4 to 1.5 results hence in a loss of about 3 DPS. (buffed even 5 DPS)

I hear you say that combat potency does the trick, but looking at the number of attacks per minute, this comes out :
1.5 speed: 40 attacks/minute
1.4 speed: 43 attacks/minute (42.85 to be exact)

I cannot believe that these 3 extra attacks can make up the difference of 5.5 extra DPS.
3 attacks = 3 *20% change to have 15 energy = 9 energy average/minute extra.
If you take an average fight of 4 minutes, that is a meager 1 sinister strike (not even a backstab)

So the difference has to be made somewhere else. Can someone point out where?
Is it lying in white DPS, poison application, did I overviewed a talent, or something else?
#1905SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3badMonkey
Originally Posted by Switchblade View Post
wondering if anyone out there with a faster speed record.
It's not me, but i found it @ wow-europe.com:
http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o...0/hastelol.jpg
0.06 < 0.08 :P
#1906SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Arindelest
Originally Posted by patcherke View Post

I cannot believe that these 3 extra attacks can make up the difference of 5.5 extra DPS.
0.1 speed faster approximately equals a 10 DPS increase.
#1907SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
patcherke
[QUOTE = Arindelest]0.1 speed faster approximately equals a 10 DPS increase.[/quote]

Might be so, but you can't do it with combat potency alone, or am I wrong about this?

I can also see that the speed makes up the difference (experimented with that in the spreadsheet), but how?

I am not stating that the spreadsheet is wrong, I only want to know what does make the difference. (in order to get a better understanding of the mechanics)


For the record : I am a combat dagger rogue with combat dagger spec.

Edit : something went wrong with an edit, can someone tell me how to remove this reply?

Last edited by patcherke : 03/13/08 at 8:33 AM.
#1908SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3patcherke
Originally Posted by Arindelest
0.1 speed faster approximately equals a 10 DPS increase.
Might be so, but you can't do it with combat potency alone, or am I wrong about this?

I can also see that the speed makes up the difference (experimented with that in the spreadsheet), but how?

I am not stating that the spreadsheet is wrong, I only want to know what does make the difference. (in order to get a better understanding of the mechanics)


For the record : I am a combat dagger rogue with combat dagger spec.
#1909SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Left
The increase in attack speed (a) creates more combat potency procs, which (b) increase special damage, and (c) increase rupture uptime by compressing cycles slightly. Also, the faster dagger (d) increases deadly poison uptime very slightly and (e) increases the uptime of %-based chance-on-hit effects, such as the AP gain off a crit from [Hourglass of the Unraveller] or [Tsunami Talisman]. (There are others as well.) The spreadsheets take all of that into account, which is where you see the total increase coming from.

Sure, no one thing you see there is a very large effect, but they add up.
#1910SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Zurgat
Originally Posted by badMonkey View Post
It's not me, but i found it @ wow-europe.com:
http://i120.photobucket.com/albums/o...0/hastelol.jpg
0.06 < 0.08 :P
Bloodlust x3 : could have had 4, then he'd be a bit faster.
Mongoose x2
Slice and dice : Looks like he has the 2xT6 set bonus as well.
Blade Flurry
Dragonspine trophy proc
Dual warglaive proc

Don't see a haste potion
Don't see drums of battle. Not sure if these stack with each other.

After 2.4 more than 1 bloodlust, and drums of battle will no longer stack with each other. So, if you plan to break the record, you'll need to hurry.
#1911SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Myrx
Originally Posted by Zurgat View Post
Bloodlust x3 : could have had 4, then he'd be a bit faster.
Mongoose x2
Slice and dice : Looks like he has the 2xT6 set bonus as well.
Blade Flurry
Dragonspine trophy proc
Dual warglaive proc

Don't see a haste potion
Don't see drums of battle. Not sure if these stack with each other.

After 2.4 more than 1 bloodlust, and drums of battle will no longer stack with each other. So, if you plan to break the record, you'll need to hurry.
Bloodlust doesn't stack anyways as far as I know. What you're seeing is 1 x Bloodlust, and 2 x Unholy Frenzy.
#1912SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Ruanur
There's a lot to browse through so not sure if it has been answered. But I'm just starting to gear myself for raids on my rogue and I'm at a choice to either farm for season 1 sword or wait for spiteblade. I'm just trying to figure out which one would I use over the other? Spiteblade is mine if it drops but I don't want to bother waiting for it if season 1 is better.
#1913SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Aerlyn
There's a lot to browse through so not sure if it has been answered. But I'm just starting to gear myself for raids on my rogue and I'm at a choice to either farm for season 1 sword or wait for spiteblade. I'm just trying to figure out which one would I use over the other? Spiteblade is mine if it drops but I don't want to bother waiting for it if season 1 is better.

Season1 is preferable to Spiteblade due to the fact it has a higher low-end damage (189 vs 165 of the spiteblade) that translates in a higher average Sinister strike damage. On top of that season 1 is a sure drop that takes 2 days to get the honor for, when you could not see Spiteblade for months.

Now there are a few questions i'd like to ask to experienced rogues. I am struggling to keep cycles up (even in static fights like morogrim), at the moment I sit on 338 hit with the use of hot spicy talbuk, despite that sometimes a 3 cp snd just doesn't last long enough for me to build the 5 cp for a rupture or an eviscrate. What I usually do, is to get on the back of a mob and open either with a garrote (if susceptible to bleeding effects) or with a SS, from there I just do 1 cp snd and build 3 cp, wait for my energy to be around 60 then refresh the SnD that is about to expire. From there, I build the 5cps needed for the finisher and either rupture/eviscerate as soon as my energy allows. Then I just build 3 cp more and try to delay a new snd as much as possible and repeat all.
Quite often however, after the rupture/eviscerate I find myself with either 3-4 seconds left on SnD so I have to do a 2cp SnD just for build cps up to a 3cp SnD and refresh it as late as possible, however doing so leaves quite some time where rupture is not applied to the boss. The spreadsheet suggest me a 3s/5r rotation so I came out to the conclusion I must be doing something really off the way, but I can't exactly pinpoint what. Should I just use every finisher as soon as my energy allows, or delay them a bit (50-60 energy taking care to never get energy capped with the relentless strikes proc)?
#1914SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Myrx
Originally Posted by Aerlyn View Post
Season1 is preferable to Spiteblade due to the fact it has a higher low-end damage (189 vs 165 of the spiteblade) that translates in a higher average Sinister strike damage. On top of that season 1 is a sure drop that takes 2 days to get the honor for, when you could not see Spiteblade for months.

Now there are a few questions i'd like to ask to experienced rogues. I am struggling to keep cycles up (even in static fights like morogrim), at the moment I sit on 338 hit with the use of hot spicy talbuk, despite that sometimes a 3 cp snd just doesn't last long enough for me to build the 5 cp for a rupture or an eviscrate. What I usually do, is to get on the back of a mob and open either with a garrote (if susceptible to bleeding effects) or with a SS, from there I just do 1 cp snd and build 3 cp, wait for my energy to be around 60 then refresh the SnD that is about to expire. From there, I build the 5cps needed for the finisher and either rupture/eviscerate as soon as my energy allows. Then I just build 3 cp more and try to delay a new snd as much as possible and repeat all.
Quite often however, after the rupture/eviscerate I find myself with either 3-4 seconds left on SnD so I have to do a 2cp SnD just for build cps up to a 3cp SnD and refresh it as late as possible, however doing so leaves quite some time where rupture is not applied to the boss. The spreadsheet suggest me a 3s/5r rotation so I came out to the conclusion I must be doing something really off the way, but I can't exactly pinpoint what. Should I just use every finisher as soon as my energy allows, or delay them a bit (50-60 energy taking care to never get energy capped with the relentless strikes proc)?
As long as your Rupture has already faded from the target apply it ASAP. Be careful, as if you have more AP than when you applied the last Rupture you can overwrite it before it finishes ticking. SnD you should ride out to about 75-80 energy or so before using, assuming it won't fall off in that time, but no higher because you risk losing energy to streak CP procs. One thing I do is after my first SnD I use my AR/BF to super-charge my cycles. After that I don't really have an issue with SnD dropping unless I get absolutely no CP procs.
#1915SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3saedo
Originally Posted by Aerlyn View Post
The spreadsheet suggest me a 3s/5r rotation so I came out to the conclusion I must be doing something really off the way, but I can't exactly pinpoint what.
Just 1 up a spreadsheet's number. Do 4s/5r. The spreadsheet gives you the tightest, perfect scenario, cycle you can do where you sit and dps and everything is proc'ing on average with no major streaks (good or bad). In reality though, streaks happen, and what would be best to do is to weave 3s or 4s depending on situation, but this is a bit more difficult. Just going up by 1 will be the safest route to maintain SnD time.
#1916SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Left
The DPS spreadsheet takes an averaging approach to energy returns; depending on procs, etc, you may not have the energy to sustain 3s/5r for any given single rotation. On average, though, the sheet has computed that you should be able to sustain it... or close to it.

Some things to remember: the DPS spreadsheet uses a discrete model to check DPS, ie 3s/5r or 4s/5r, but not in between. The Gear sheet uses a continuous SnD model, ie, it can recommend something like 3.7s/5r. The DPS sheet is also looking at the best out of the two cycles; it doesn't guarantee that with a given cycle SnD won't drop. As for Rupture uptime, with a combat build you are pretty much guaranteed to have a Rupture uptime lower than 100%, and that's ok. SnD is the important one.

If you are having an issue keeping the cycle up, try loosening your cycle a bit by using more CPs in the SnD part of the rotation. For example, the sheet recommends 1s/5r for me, but I run with 2s/5r because I that gives me less of a chance for SnD to drop. A looser cycle will reduce Rupture uptime but also reduce risk, so I just use 1 CP over the recommended SnD value. (If you are going from the Gear sheet, round up. 3.7s/5r means that practically speaking, you should run 4s/5r.)

Also, whenever you have to use Eviscerate as a finisher (eg Hydross), remember that it costs an extra 10 energy. You need to make that energy back somewhere. My strategy for making the energy back is to loosen my typical cycle a bit more, which gives more return from Relentless Strikes and lets SnD run a bit longer for extra regen time. For example, I run 3s/5e on Hydross.
#1917SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Aldriana
Originally Posted by Aerlyn View Post
Season1 is preferable to Spiteblade due to the fact it has a higher low-end damage (189 vs 165 of the spiteblade) that translates in a higher average Sinister strike damage.
Right answer, wrong reason. Anytime you see the terms "high-end damage" or "low-end damage" thrown around, you can be reasonably certain that the statement is incorrect. High-end damage and low-end damage, by themselves, mean nothing.

In terms of *average* damage, which is a more relevant metric, they are actually very close - 237 versus 236.5. This means that the Sinister Strikes will hit almost exactly as hard as each other. And, regardless of whether they do or not, how hard your Sinister Strikes hit, exactly, isn't a very useful metric either. It certainly is a *contributer* in which does more damage, but there are definitely other factors at play. For instance, Siphon of the Nathrezim has higher average damage than the Arena 3 MH Sword; but the Arena 3 MH sword is a vastly superior weapon nevertheless.

The *real* reason why Gladiator's Slicer is better than Spiteblade is that if you work out the amount of damage you do with each, you will probably find that Slicer does a bit more (but don't take my word for it - use a spreadsheet to be sure).

Also, speaking from personal experience: waiting around for a Spiteblade to drop can be a fairly frustrating experience. For instance, I did Kara for about 6 months without ever seeing one drop. So if you have some reasonably alternative you're using right now, you might reasonably wait for it; and if you don't have access to anything comparable or better through other means, you could wait for it. But I suspect neither of those is the case; thus, I would go ahead and get yourself an Arena 1 MH - whether it's actually better or not - because it's something that you're sure to be able to get in a reasonable amount of time, while there's no guarantee that you'll *ever* get a Spiteblade.
#1918SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Lookaasheq
Originally Posted by Vulajin View Post
Your base chance to miss a raid boss while dual wielding is 28% with auto-attack on both hands. Your base chance to miss a special attack is 9%. For each 15.77 hit rating you equip, you reduce your chance to miss by 1%. Thus we can calculate hit caps for auto-attack and special attacks:

Auto-attack, 0/5 Precision: 442
Auto-attack, 5/5 Precision: 363
Special, 0/5 Precision: 142
Special, 5/5 Precision: 64
May i ask where did you get these numbers ? AFAIK chance to miss same level mob is 5%, bosses are 3 levels above, that means their defense skill is 350 + 3 * 5 = 365, which is higher than my weapon skill (350) by 15.
15 * 0,04 = 0,6% additional chance to miss

5 + 0,6 = 5,6%
5,6 + 19 = 24,6%

Have i missed any major change in these mechanics ?
#1919SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Aura
Hi, I just want to ask for some tips on how to upgrade gears this coming 2.4 patch. This is a link to my armory profile: my gears. Our guild is currently doing Black Temple and Hyjal but I dont expect any new gear since I have something up my sleeve Anyway, my main concern is my hit rating which is dropping rapidly due to upgrades. I plan to get the Sunwell Melee Ring, which will upgrade my dps but kill my hit rating. The only way I see to solve this is to get more hit gear which is exactly what 2.4 has. Now my main question is: since I have 4/5 T5, is it worth dropping for more 2.4 hit gear? Particularly the Chest and Pants.
#1920SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Harmonics
Originally Posted by Aura View Post
upgrade my dps
I think you probably answered your own question right there.
#1921SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3patcherke
I was reading up on the usage of totems by our shamans.

Originally Posted by Vulajin
On poisons and Windfury: for PvE, always choose DP on the offhand. If you are in a group with a shaman and you're combat, you'll get more DPS from Windfury as opposed to Grace of Air + IP. However, the difference is not as dramatic as it is for, say, a DPS warrior. If your group contains a DPS warrior, Windfury Totem will usually be dropped. Otherwise, if less than half the group is rogues, Grace of Air Totem will probably be dropped and you should use IP on the MH. Always check with your shaman if you're unsure what will be dropped. For Mutilate, Grace of Air Totem might be preferable, but Windfury Totem is still quite powerful.
To be honest, this part is quite confusing to me : if a group contains 1 fury warrior, and 1 rogue, it means that the prerequisite for the Windfury totem is fullfilled (DPS warrior available), but also that for 'Grace of air' (less then half the group is rogue)

am I correct to state that from a 'rogue personal' point of view windfury is better?

Our group consists mainly out of the following composition :

Hunter (BM)
shaman (enhancement)
Rogue (combat dagger)
Warrior (fury)
Hunter/druid (cat form)

So I guess that for the group in total, the grace of air totem is better, because the hunters and/or druids benefit from it more. Is that correct?

But if the group would consist out of warriors and rogues only, the windfury is better, correct?

Furthermore, enabling 'windfury' in the buffs list, does not increase the buffed dps, is that normal ?
#1922SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Daxin
Gems

I have just noticed that 2 of the epic pvp gems were removed from the list of "must have" gems, i was wondering why that is and if i should not be replacing my rare gems with them anymore.
#1923SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Tarquin
Originally Posted by patcherke View Post
I was reading up on the usage of totems by our shamans.

[snip]

So I guess that for the group in total, the grace of air totem is better, because the hunters and/or druids benefit from it more. Is that correct?
If there is a DPS warrior in the group, assuming equal gear and a generally equal level of play throughout the party, windfury is always the proper choice. The DPS increase provided to one warrior by Windfury outstrips the DPS increase provided to anything short of a full GoA group otherwise (shammy and 3 ferals/hunters), and if that's the group, your raid leader is doing it wrong.

In the specific example given, Windfury will provide the higher DPS increase; however, as long as a pally tosses Judgement of Wisdom up and is in position to refresh it, your shaman should easily be able to twist GoA/WF.
#1924SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Hanos
Originally Posted by Lookaasheq View Post
May i ask where did you get these numbers ? AFAIK chance to miss same level mob is 5%, bosses are 3 levels above, that means their defense skill is 350 + 3 * 5 = 365, which is higher than my weapon skill (350) by 15.
15 * 0,04 = 0,6% additional chance to miss

5 + 0,6 = 5,6%
5,6 + 19 = 24,6%

Have i missed any major change in these mechanics ?
There was significant testing done back at the start of TBC, we know for a fact that 28% is the duel wield miss rate. A lot of the early testing by rogues was flawed due to the effect of weapon skill at the time, where most rogues were getting 10 weapon skill from talents that was providing a significant amount of hit.

You have the right idea, just the wrong numbers, 5% isn't the duel wield number for even level mobs, it is the miss rate when using only 1 weapon:
* If the difference between the mob's Defense Skill and your Weapon Skill is less than or equal to 10 then the formula for calculating your base miss rate against that mob is: 5% + (Defense Skill - Weapon Skill)*.1%

* If the difference between the mob's Defense Skill and your Weapon Skill is greater than 10, then the formula for calculating your base miss rate against that mob is: 7% + (Defense Skill - Weapon Skill - 10)*.4%

Applying these formulas gives the following base miss rate for a Level 70 character with a 350 Weapon Skill:

* v. Level 70 mob: 5.0% / dual-wield: 24%
* v. Level 71 mob: 5.5% / dual-wield: 24.5%
* v. Level 72 mob: 6.0% / dual-wield: 25%
* v. Level 73 mob: 9.0% / dual-wield: 28%

You can no longer raise your weapon skill above 350, but this also explains why the first 5 points of weapon skill were so valuable, because it got you within 10 points of the bosses Defense skill, and effectively gave you 3% to hit.
#1925SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3patcherke
Originally Posted by Tarquin View Post
If there is a DPS warrior in the group, assuming equal gear and a generally equal level of play throughout the party, windfury is always the proper choice. The DPS increase provided to one warrior by Windfury outstrips the DPS increase provided to anything short of a full GoA group otherwise (shammy and 3 ferals/hunters), and if that's the group, your raid leader is doing it wrong.

In the specific example given, Windfury will provide the higher DPS increase; however, as long as a pally tosses Judgement of Wisdom up and is in position to refresh it, your shaman should easily be able to twist GoA/WF.
Tarquin, what group would you suggest, given the fact that we only have 2 decent rogues, 2 skilled hunters, 4 druids (2 healing, 1 feral, and 1 boomkin) and a max of 2 dps warriors. (that is if they can all come)
Most of the time the only melee we got is the 4 melee in the group mentioned above, and 2 or 3 (tanking) protection warriors.

(Okay I know, our guild might be short on melee dps, we are working on it. We do have more melee than mentioned above, but those are not skillled and geared enough yet for T5 instances at this moment.)

I take your advice if it concerns the mentioned group, but if there is no fury warrior, is grace of air better then?
#1926SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3vyedma
Ideally you'd want put the rogues & warriors in a group together with a shaman, and the feral druids and hunters together with a different shaman. If you only have 1 shaman the rogue/warrior group would get priority.

If you don't have enough to fill two groups the rogues and warriors should get first priority in the group, and the hunters can share with a caster or healer group.

In our raids we sometimes end up with a bastard group with a hunter or two, a feral druid, a spriest, and a mage or lock.
#1927SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Tarquin
With the four melee mentioned above, I'd put the shaman, rogue, and feral in a group with an OT prot warrior and probably one of the hunters to round it off, and drop Windfury. Just stick that prot warrior on the first kill target for trash pulls or adds during a boss fight - he'll have less survivability, but more threat generation. If your enhance shaman can learn to totem twist, even better; extra DPS for the feral and hunter, and extra avoidance for the prot war.

Oh, and stick the orphan hunter in a shadow priest group if you can.
#1928SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Apoq
Originally Posted by Myrx View Post
Bloodlust doesn't stack anyways as far as I know. What you're seeing is 1 x Bloodlust, and 2 x Unholy Frenzy.
Thats definately just 3 unholy frenzy's. Nobody else in the group has lust icons, or glowing hands, or slightly bigger characters.

On a second note, you see how many potency procs flying around? lol He prolly couldn't spend it fast enough. But yeah that's Aurora on Mal'ganis.

--

BTW I finally had a good Gorefiend attempt this week as combat. If you remember the 1880 WWS as Hemo, I did 2025 as Combat Mace/Sword last night.

I could see getting a little closer to combat dps as hemo, maybe within 3-4%, but potency is a clear winner.
#1929SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Hanos
Originally Posted by patcherke View Post
Tarquin, what group would you suggest, given the fact that we only have 2 decent rogues, 2 skilled hunters, 4 druids (2 healing, 1 feral, and 1 boomkin) and a max of 2 dps warriors. (that is if they can all come)
Most of the time the only melee we got is the 4 melee in the group mentioned above, and 2 or 3 (tanking) protection warriors.

(Okay I know, our guild might be short on melee dps, we are working on it. We do have more melee than mentioned above, but those are not skillled and geared enough yet for T5 instances at this moment.)

I take your advice if it concerns the mentioned group, but if there is no fury warrior, is grace of air better then?
Melee Group:
-Rogue
-Rogue
-DPS Warrior
-DPS Warrior/Feral
-Shaman

Basically the Feral is nice to have unless you have 3 rogues or 2 DPS Warriors, as they are a higher priority. If you only have enough melee for one group, you probably want to stack all of in there, the Feral is the first one you pull out to put with the hunters.
#1930SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Lookaasheq
Originally Posted by Hanos View Post
There was significant testing done back at the start of TBC, we know for a fact that 28% is the duel wield miss rate. A lot of the early testing by rogues was flawed due to the effect of weapon skill at the time, where most rogues were getting 10 weapon skill from talents that was providing a significant amount of hit.

You have the right idea, just the wrong numbers, 5% isn't the duel wield number for even level mobs, it is the miss rate when using only 1 weapon:
* If the difference between the mob's Defense Skill and your Weapon Skill is less than or equal to 10 then the formula for calculating your base miss rate against that mob is: 5% + (Defense Skill - Weapon Skill)*.1%

* If the difference between the mob's Defense Skill and your Weapon Skill is greater than 10, then the formula for calculating your base miss rate against that mob is: 7% + (Defense Skill - Weapon Skill - 10)*.4%

Applying these formulas gives the following base miss rate for a Level 70 character with a 350 Weapon Skill:

* v. Level 70 mob: 5.0% / dual-wield: 24%
* v. Level 71 mob: 5.5% / dual-wield: 24.5%
* v. Level 72 mob: 6.0% / dual-wield: 25%
* v. Level 73 mob: 9.0% / dual-wield: 28%

You can no longer raise your weapon skill above 350, but this also explains why the first 5 points of weapon skill were so valuable, because it got you within 10 points of the bosses Defense skill, and effectively gave you 3% to hit.
\o/
Thank you very much, was very helpful.
#1931SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3weka
At one point in time, there was a working AEP addon, Jubei's AEP | World of Warcraft Addons | Curse ; I was curious if it would be worth resurrecting this for the modern rogue, or if there is a similar addon that is up-to-date.
#1932SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 JohnLocke
Pawn - Inventory/Item - World of Warcraft Mods, Addons, and More! should do the trick.
#1933SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3koaschten
Originally Posted by JohnLocke View Post
Which should be especially useful as if i recall correctly the Rogue DPS Spreadsheet genereates copy&paste code to get the AEP Values from the sheet ingame into pawn.
#1934SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3netslayer
I've got a couple questions, first off ive read these forums for atleast 2 years very good job on all the theorycrafting.
My issue is lately ive noticed on wws reports im having my special attacks missing my hitcap for specials is definately above the cap around 250 with precision. it seems like 1 or 2 times I go to apply my rupture its missing which hasnt happened til lately. here is a link to my armory as well hope at the time it has my raid gear equipped feel free to critique all you want lol. The World of Warcraft Armory some of my choices made are due to none dropped items ect they will be pretty apparent. thank you.
#1935SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Zavior
WWS shows dodges in the 'misses' section as well if my memory serves. Hit wont lower your attack's chance to get dodged, expertise will. Surprise attacks will make your finishers undodgeable, but it doesn't help for other specials.
#1936SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3netslayer
thats what I figured just wanted to make sure its the dodges then affecting my sinisters strikes. since ive got the belt of 100 deaths ive noticed a difference in it not happening as often.
#1937SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3saedo
On WWS, you have to click on the attack to get a drop down menu which gives you details on what was dodged, missed, parried, blocked, etc. Click along the line, not the name of the attack itself, which would only bring you to one of the abilities page.
#1938SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3netslayer
yup ive got it now I didnt realize wws would add the parry and dodge to the miss % was a little worried. but my misses from my specials are alot more then the other 2 rogues still unless due to haste procs im swinging more so my misses are more.
#1939SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3saedo
Originally Posted by netslayer View Post
yup ive got it now I didnt realize wws would add the parry and dodge to the miss % was a little worried. but my misses from my specials are alot more then the other 2 rogues still unless due to haste procs im swinging more so my misses are more.
Well, compare the miss % instead of actual misses. But it could all just be RNG luck.
#1940SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Spoonrogue
All very good information. Thank you so much!
#1941SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Stinkiee
After reading through all the pages in this thread i found a interesting discussing about mace+sword spec.

I decided to test it out myself and used the rogue dps spread sheet and had some pretty interesting results.

Using the spec 16/45/0 with mace+sword spec i actualy came out with 25 more dps (1,84%) than with the classic combat swords, as a human rogue(+5 expertise).

I used my own gear and vengeful weps. Buffed stats according to the spread sheet was:
3226 AP
3392 armor pen
35.9% crit
20.73% hit

Anybody got some thoughts at this, or can tell me what i did wrong if i did anything wrong.

Sorry if it has already been discussed and i havnt seen it(was a bit sleepy at some points while reading the thread).
#1942SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Vulajin
So, just as a general rule, I would suggest that if the DPS Spreadsheet gives you results that differ greatly from what I've posted in this thread or what you get from using the Gear Spreadsheet, the answer is either:

1) You have used the DPS Spreadsheet incorrectly.

OR

2) The DPS Spreadsheet is wrong.

I would advise cross-checking all results against the Gear Spreadsheet if you're in doubt. Unless you're looking at something that we've never even talked about before, it's not likely that you're discovering some new and exciting twist to a problem we've already solved.

Sorry to be harsh, but seeing the sheer number of cases in which the DPS Spreadsheet is just plain wrong these days really worries me, given how many people still use it as their primary DPS/gearing tool.
#1943SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Stinkiee
Well okay, as u said i prolly havnt discovered something new, but the main point of my post is the "bug" with humans. When you got both a sword and a mace you get 10 expertise, its not a very old change so could be something you havn't discussed. But the reason is probaly one of the two you pointed out.

Anyway thanks for the fast reply.
#1944SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Vulajin
Originally Posted by Stinkiee View Post
When you got both a sword and a mace you get 10 expertise, its not a very old change so could be something you havn't discussed.
That's actually a display bug.
#1945SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Stinkiee
Ahh that's probaly the reason nobody discussed it before:P Thanks for pointing that out.
#1946SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3netslayer
when switching from bloodelf to troll on the dps spreadsheet its showing blood elf as a .57 dps upgrade. is there a reason for this? i know its minor but im just wondering.
#1947SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Vulajin
Arcane Torrent provides you 30 extra energy per 2 minutes (~0.25 per second, average) if you're fighting something with mana. Berserking is weak by comparison.
#1948SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3lordshitzu
I have a question about patch 2.4, I've been looking over these and the WoW forums and can't find any mention of this, maybe I'm searching for the wrong terms.

The notes say:
Non-self % based haste spells will no longer stack with each other.

Isn't Heroism/Bloodlust a % based haste spell? Doesn't this mean that heroism will become basically useless to rogues, since we should have SnD/Blade Flurry up at all times? Or will ONE non-self spell still stack with any self-buffs?
#1949SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3sambjo
Originally Posted by lordshitzu View Post
Isn't Heroism/Bloodlust a % based haste spell? Doesn't this mean that heroism will become basically useless to rogues, since we should have SnD/Blade Flurry up at all times? Or will ONE non-self spell still stack with any self-buffs?
The change only means that Power Infusion won't stack with Bloodlust/Heroism. Rogues are unaffected.

Originally Posted by Drysc
The following changes have been made for a future PTR update:


* Bloodlust/Heroism will, again, stack with Icy Veins.
* Bloodlust/Heroism will not stack with Power Infusion, however.


The new rule being used to govern these changes is “non-self % based haste spells will not stack with each other”.
#1950SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3koaschten
You answered your question yourself by quoting the notes... NON-SELFBUFFED stuff won't stack.
#1951SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3lordshitzu
Originally Posted by koaschten View Post
You answered your question yourself by quoting the notes... NON-SELFBUFFED stuff won't stack.
Well I disagree that I answered my own question, it says that non-self haste buff spells will not stack, so I was thinking that SnD and Blade Flurry would still stack, being self-buffs but they would not stack with Heroism.

That said, you're right that it makes more sense that non-self buffs will not stack with each other but will continue to stack with self-buffs, and thanks for confirming that sambjo.
#1952SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Apoq
Originally Posted by Vulajin View Post
Arcane Torrent provides you 30 extra energy per 2 minutes (~0.25 per second, average) if you're fighting something with mana. Berserking is weak by comparison.
I use AT/MT all the time, I'm pretty anal about getting charges on trash before bosses that have no mana as well.
#1953SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3netslayer
wow never knew that thanks.
#1954SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
hedningen
Originally Posted by Vulajin View Post
That's actually a display bug.
I have to disagree.

Ive been running with mace/sword spec for a while and have yet to see any dodge as human.
I have the belt of one-hundred deaths and 2p in VE and that put me on 26 experties in total and hench capped.
When running with sword/sword I note some dodges ~1-2% but never with mace/sword.

I know I need some data to back this up so here are some of our latest WWS.
If you need more data I can provide it as the randomness of only one WWS could give the wrong answer.

BT 16/3
MH 16/3

Last edited by hedningen : 03/17/08 at 7:08 AM.
#1955SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Seleli
Whether or not it's a display bug, on the PTR they've changed it to Expertise per hand, at least last I looked (which was a couple builds ago, and PTR is down at the moment, so I can't check), which means it should go live when 2.4 hits. That would change the showing "20" to "15/15," whether using dual swords/maces or a combo thereof (as Human).

I've been reading for a couple of months now, and have found great info here, and learned a lot about playing a rogue. On that note, I had a couple questions. Sorry if these have been answered before, but they're buried somewhere if they have. On the subject of glancing hits: do we actually have the 25% glancing chance against bosses that wowwiki states we do? If not, what might that % be? Is there anyway to reduce this? And finally, how much damage does a glance do (it seems like ~66%, but I haven't done any real research to back that up)?

Last edited by Seleli : 03/17/08 at 7:35 AM. Reason: down != done
#1956SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Balkoth
Originally Posted by Seleli View Post
I've been reading for a couple of months now, and have found great info here, and learned a lot about playing a rogue. On that note, I had a couple questions. Sorry if these have been answered before, but they're buried somewhere if they have. On the subject of glancing hits: do we actually have the 25% glancing chance against bosses that wowwiki states we do? If not, what might that % be? Is there anyway to reduce this? And finally, how much damage does a glance do (it seems like ~66%, but I haven't done any real research to back that up)?
I think it used to be a 30% chance to do 70% damage, essentially giving us a 9% damage reduction. It was lessened in 2.1, but I forget the exact numbers now. But no, it's no longer able to be reduced. It's the same as the innate boss resistances that casters cannot eliminate.
#1957SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Latito
Ok, so in regards to Glancing blows, I just went through a semi-random sample of WWS reports for rogues in my guild over the past ~6 months. I picked a good chunk of "first starting in T6-content" reports.. ie longer reports with larger data sets. I completely avoided any fight with adds. The only Gurtogg fights I picked were ones with no Fel Rage.. in case a lucky string of glance / non-glance attacks occured for those 30 seconds. In specific, I picked some 7-8 minute Archimonde kills, some 6-8 min Najentus kills, some 5-6 min Teron kills, some 6-8 min Mother kills and 2 Gurtogg kills (no fel rage).

In total I picked out 22 fights, using only rogues (mostly myself, but a few of the other rogues in my guild). Recorded to Excel the Average Normal (not landed) and Glance amount, as well as the total number of attacks for the various categories and the WWS-reported Glance %. I then proceeded to calculate Glance % based on the number of attacks. WWS certainly appears to be truncating the %. That is, if you glanced 22.8%, WWS reports 22% glancing. After averaging out stuff, I got a glancing rate of 24.25%, with WWS reporting 23.73%. Seems about right to have WWS roughly 0.5% lower - given that it is truncating, on average, 0.5% from each report. I had a total of just under 8500 swings.. not sure if that puts a 24.25% glancing rate within the statistical margin of error for 25%, but it certainly would seem to fit 24%. Also, 24% fits the "8% per level" theory. Either way, 24% vs 25% isn't a *large* difference.

As to the % reduction, For each encounter I just took AverageGlanceAmount / AverageHitAmount = Glance%. I then averaged out the 22 Glance%'s and got 74.53%. Not too hard to assume a 25% damage reduction on glances. This would lead to 24% of your attacks dealing 25% less damage, or a total loss of 6% damage, on average, to glances. Isn't that equal to what casters get from partial resists? Would appear to be a reasonable conclusion to me.

If someone wants to look at the excel file or the WWS reports I could provide a link.
#1958SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Aldriana
Well, lets see. If the null hypothesis is that the glancing rate is 25%, we can easily test how far from the mean this data set would be. We have:

n=8500
p = .25
q = 1 - p = .75
\sigma^2 = npq = 1594
\sigma ~= 40

That is, the standard deviation is 40 attacks; thus, a deviation of .75% = 64 attacks is about 1.6 standard deviations from the mean. Hence, this data set is consistant with either a 24 or 25% glancing rate; we would need somewhat more data in order to be certain which it is.
#1959SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Latito
I'll expand this later when I get home from work to include pretty much every boss fight for every rogue in my guild since late August. Should end up with ~30-50k attacks easily. At what number of attacks would you say we are pretty certain its either a 24 or 25% glancing change, Ald? Aside from the "it fits nicely" argument favouring 24% :P

Just brainstorming here.. the only bosses I should leave out would be Azgalor (our guild has melee on Infernals) and Illidan (Flames are lvl 72, right?). I'll exclude Gurtogg Fel Rages just to eliminate the streaky "I didn't glance at all while doing 300% more damage" factor.. or the reverse "60% of my attacks glanced for 2k!".
#1960SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Aldriana
Well, mathematically speaking, the answer would be the number of attacks where the two 95% confidence ranges no longer overlap; in equations, this would be the condition

1.96(\sqrt{npq}+\sqrt{np'q'}) = n(p-p')

Squaring both sides, we obtain
1.96^2(npq+np'q'+2n\sqrt{pqp'q'})=n^2(p-p')^2

Dividing both sides by n(p-p')^2 then gives

n=\frac{1.96^2(pq+p'q'+2\sqrt{pqp'q'})}{(p-p')^2}

Plugging in p = .25 and p' = .24, we find that N = 28419 is the point where the ranges become disjoint.

Now, the problem with this is: this amount is not necessarily required; if after 15000 attacks we have an average of 24.1%, that will be enough; but if after 28419 attacks we're at 24.5 - right on the boundary of both ranges - we're *still* not going to be very confident in the answer.

So, in terms of a ballpark figure of when we're likely to know the answer - about 30k attacks. In terms of a number where we're absolutely certain that we'll have an answer... I'd say we probably would want any data point in the 95% confidence range of one to be about 4 standard deviations away from the mean of the other; thus, the condition becomes, in rough terms,

\frac{4+1.96}{2}(\sqrt{npq}+\sqrt{np'q'}) = n(p-p')

which has the solution

n=\frac{2.98^2(pq+p'q'+2\sqrt{pqp'q'})}{(p-p')^2}

Plugging in our p and p' values yields n=65694. Thus the answer should be clear by 66k attacks, and will probably be clear by 30k attacks, but could easily be clear as early as 15k attacks.
#1961SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Dontmindme
Maybe another approach is to see what happens with lower level mobs.

I just did a quick 240 swings (auto-attacking) on just level 71's using my trusty 2-4 damage weapons (to keep the damage range small).
I had 31 glances in 240 attacks or 12.9167% glance rate.
The interesting thing was using the small damage range.

vs. Soulcallers and Windwalkers
OH damage ranging from 152-153
OH (6) glances ranging from 139-151 or what appears to be 0-10% reduction for an average 5%
MH damage ranging from 203-205
MH (11) glances ranging from 188-200, same 1-10%ish

vs. Wing Guards (unfortunately Demoralized for some)
OH (Demoralized) damage ranging from 127-128
OH (Demoralized) (4) glances ranging from 116-124
MH (Demoralized) damage ranging from 168-170
MH (Demoralized) (3) glances ranging from 162-166

OH damage ranging from 140-141
OH (1) glance ranging from 137
MH damage ranging from 186-188
MH (6) glances ranging from 172-184

So just extrapolating from what looks to be the 71 data...
Could be...
71 - 12% glancing rate for a 5% reduction (0-10%)
72 - 18% glancing rate for a 15% reduction (???)
73 - 24% glancing rate for a 25% reduction (???)

Data vs. 72's and some sort of glancing damage range for 73's might help pin down the mechanics.
#1962SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Latito
Thats a very interesting theory, DMM. I never got around to compiling better stuff from past WWS's tonight - had a chance at a Vashj-only instance and well.. I still need a belt. I'll do that soon as I have time, which should give us a very sizable portion of data for lvl 73 / boss mobs. Standard stuff for smacking around a lvl 71 and 72 - low dmg weapon, high ap (for ease w/ rounding). It would be faster to just use a MH I'd think, instead of sorting the attacks out later on.. although 2 weapons does mean double data. Pick your poison I suppose. At least we won't have to take out the RED meta since hits and glances aren't crits.

If your going to test stuff, don't use non-proc'ing gear (Mongoose, Exec, Hyjal ring, WSC, etc). Same AP for every attack makes it easy to just get an entire spectrum of possible attacks and then play with the numbers. Beats the hell out of compiling 50k+ attacks and averaging them out.
#1963SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Aldriana
Although averaging out 50k attacks will be helpful for the proc rate.

For testing the glancing reduction against 73s, I might try to sucker a tank + healer into running, say, ZG Snake boss with you; just clear to him and then beat at him with low-damage weapons for a while, and see what turns up.

And at the risk of being utterly nitpicky: the observed 1-10% reduction would actually average 5.5%, which, when extended to mobs of level -3, would imply 25.5% reduction - which matches suspiciously well with your previous data compilation.
#1964SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3RedOtto
Expertise and +hit

I am a Kara raiding rogue, with all but my legs purple no t4 yet (pallys get lucky rolls!)

My unbuffed +hit is 183, my AP is <1600 and my crit is 29+% My expertise is only 10
I am combat daggers specc 15/41/5

Now I have equipped as many +8 to hit and +4/+4 gems as is reasonable, but can someone explain to me in simple language, if this is correct of course, why it is better to lose +AP and +Crit to gain +hit

Also Expertise??? I have read widely but is that just something I can do something about once I have progressed?

I am not unhappy with my performance... I am consistently at the top of my raid damage table... I just want to make sure I progress in the right way. If there is anyone here who can remember back to when Prince was a challenge, then any tips and translations of the immense amount of info here into terms that I can understand and goals that I can reasonably achieve I would be hugely grateful
#1965SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
AtADeadRun
Originally Posted by RedOtto View Post
I am a Kara raiding rogue, with all but my legs purple no t4 yet (pallys get lucky rolls!)

My unbuffed +hit is 183, my AP is <1600 and my crit is 29+% My expertise is only 10
I am combat daggers specc 15/41/5

Now I have equipped as many +8 to hit and +4/+4 gems as is reasonable, but can someone explain to me in simple language, if this is correct of course, why it is better to lose +AP and +Crit to gain +hit

Also Expertise??? I have read widely but is that just something I can do something about once I have progressed?

I am not unhappy with my performance... I am consistently at the top of my raid damage table... I just want to make sure I progress in the right way. If there is anyone here who can remember back to when Prince was a challenge, then any tips and translations of the immense amount of info here into terms that I can understand and goals that I can reasonably achieve I would be hugely grateful
Poisons, Windfury, and Combat Potency are big items that make use of hit and expertise: they're fixed-percentage procs, and the more you make contact with your weapons, the more mileage you're going to get out of them. Losing offhand swings to dodges or misses will drastically reduce your energy generation, and above and beyond that, each missed swing in a minute, when your white hits average, say, 600 damage, is 10 DPS. That adds up quick, fast, and in a hurry.

Also, it takes fewer points of hit rating to get 1% hit than it does of crit rating to get 1% crit, so when gemming, it's a more efficient use of item budget to gem for hit than for crit.

Last edited by AtADeadRun : 03/18/08 at 9:12 AM. Reason: Clarity
#1966SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Dontmindme
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
Although averaging out 50k attacks will be helpful for the proc rate.

For testing the glancing reduction against 73s, I might try to sucker a tank + healer into running, say, ZG Snake boss with you; just clear to him and then beat at him with low-damage weapons for a while, and see what turns up.

And at the risk of being utterly nitpicky: the observed 1-10% reduction would actually average 5.5%, which, when extended to mobs of level -3, would imply 25.5% reduction - which matches suspiciously well with your previous data compilation.
True, we still might need the 10's of thousands of attacks to work that out. At some point, I want to try to get more than 31 glances to work the theory. Anyone know offhand where one might find some 72 non-elite mobs to test on? Any such thing anymore?
#1967SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Left
Originally Posted by Dontmindme View Post
True, we still might need the 10's of thousands of attacks to work that out. At some point, I want to try to get more than 31 glances to work the theory. Anyone know offhand where one might find some 72 non-elite mobs to test on? Any such thing anymore?
Wowhead suggests Gordunni Back-Breakers and Head-Splitters (outside of Shattrath) as well as various Skettis NPCs. I'm not sure how many are actually level 72, but I'm pretty sure I recall some of them being level 72s.
#1968SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Trazhenko
Originally Posted by Dontmindme View Post
...
vs. Soulcallers and Windwalkers
OH damage ranging from 152-153
OH (6) glances ranging from 139-151 or what appears to be 0-10% reduction for an average 5%
MH damage ranging from 203-205
MH (11) glances ranging from 188-200, same 1-10%ish
...
This data is really weird. I always just assumed that the glancing damage reduction was a fixed percent based on level difference, but your glancing damage actually has a wider range than your non-glancing damage, suggesting that the reduction from a glance is random.
#1969SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3farnold2
ive been a little frustrated with my dps as a raiding rogue lately and thus I stopped raiding for about 6 weeks or so. With all that being said about a week I decided to get back into raiding and signed up for a few raids. Here are the wws reports for them:

Friday's Gruul's Lair and The Lurker Below: WWS Loading...
Saturday's TK: WWS Loading...

Im spec'd combat daggers and it seems like maybe Im at the point where I cant output and more damage. The friday night run I believe I was at 339 hit no food buffs and my dps seemed off now that could be due to 6 weeks of rust so after being frustrated that night with my contribution to the raid I spent about 2-3 hours on EJ and DPS spreadsheets. and on saturday I did a little better.

Okay with all that being said if you look at saturdays VR kill my dps wasnt that bad I think but the question I would like to know is, is that about the max of what im going to be able to output as a dagger rogue (for our strat the melee group had a dedicated healer so we just stayed in the whole time)? If there is a way for me to get more out of the build can yoiu please offer some suggestions.



thanks again,

farnold


ps. not sure how I logged out but I can get hit rating up to 339 with no food buffs and the cycle I was using both nights is 5s/4r, my primary attack is backstab.
#1970SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Dontmindme
Originally Posted by Left View Post
Wowhead suggests Gordunni Back-Breakers and Head-Splitters (outside of Shattrath) as well as various Skettis NPCs. I'm not sure how many are actually level 72, but I'm pretty sure I recall some of them being level 72s.
Ah...forgot about those ogres. I think those Skettis mobs might be rare spawns, Wowhead didn't have nearly as many actual kills listed for them compared with the Ogres and I didn't see any 72's in Sketttis on a fly through (except one 72 Elite which is not that soloing friendly with 2-4 damage weapons).

Busy tonight, I'll probably try to see how many I can kill tomorrow before my raid.
#1971SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Coffin Burier
For the series DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME, here are the results of your suggestions about my crazy spec.

I've been using the Spreedsheet and found out what it's better for my rogue 31/0/30. Some of your suggestion where very helpful in increasing my dps in raid.

Assuming Spreedshit is right, the best spec is with 3/5 Improved Poisons instead of 3/5 Vile Poisons with DD main hand and IP in off hand. That allowed me to keep up 5 stacks of DD and get some extra damage from IP.

What about stats. I found out I socketed almost perfecly. Crit Rating in yellow sockets is better than Hit Rating plus Agility. I could have slitely increased my dps by moving one Honor Reward gem from a red socket to a yellow one and then socketing the now free red sockets with Agility (but that would cost quite a lot of honor to me and the increase is less than 1 dps). In orders the best stats are Agility, AP, Crit Rating, Expertise, Haste and finally Hit Rating.

I also found out I have to change 2 enchants and hope to do that soon on some new items.

In fact, my total damage on raid bosses have been increased. On non-bleed immune bosses I now get first in the charts for damage. The biggest inclease of damage came from SnD over Eviscerate. That helped a lot getting very close to the top with Void (and getting first in the melee chart with Hydross), too.

Thank you for help guys! ^_^

P.S.
I have a feral druid, but that doens't mean I think a dudu works like a rogue or vice versa.
#1972SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Myrx
First is completely relative to who you are playing with. What kind of DPS were you doing? Do you have a WWS report? I wouldn't be satisfied yet.

EDIT: I mean, I don't mean to be rude, but your gear is pretty trashy, and the most common misconception I see rogues make is that they think they are good because they can beat the other rogues in Kara. However, keep in mind that as an entry level dungeon anyone can get in to Kara, and those other rogues are very likely terrible. I don't mean to insult you, but do you have armory links of the rogues you are beating, and are they in the same group as you for DPS?

Last edited by Myrx : 03/19/08 at 9:44 AM.
#1973SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Hanos
Originally Posted by farnold2 View Post
ive been a little frustrated with my dps as a raiding rogue lately and thus I stopped raiding for about 6 weeks or so. With all that being said about a week I decided to get back into raiding and signed up for a few raids. Here are the wws reports for them:

Friday's Gruul's Lair and The Lurker Below: WWS Loading...
Saturday's TK: WWS Loading...

Im spec'd combat daggers and it seems like maybe Im at the point where I cant output and more damage. The friday night run I believe I was at 339 hit no food buffs and my dps seemed off now that could be due to 6 weeks of rust so after being frustrated that night with my contribution to the raid I spent about 2-3 hours on EJ and DPS spreadsheets. and on saturday I did a little better.

Okay with all that being said if you look at saturdays VR kill my dps wasnt that bad I think but the question I would like to know is, is that about the max of what im going to be able to output as a dagger rogue (for our strat the melee group had a dedicated healer so we just stayed in the whole time)? If there is a way for me to get more out of the build can yoiu please offer some suggestions.
Well, the good news is your gear looks fine, the bad news is that means it is an issue of skill and play. First off VR is a horrible boss to guarge DPS off of, he has higher then normal armor and he is poison and bleed immune. I am also not sure 5s/4r is the ideal cycle for you. At this point it is really hard to guess what you are doing wrong, but there is no reason you should be getting beat by shamans and druids in T5 content. Are you letting S&D Drop?
#1974SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3koaschten
Are you letting S&D Drop?
As a dagger rogue? Most probably.
#1975SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Tryak
In 2.4 with mutilate benefitting from the 15% crit of the old improved backstab talent it occurs to me that I should be rearranging my spec. Right now I am a very standard 41/20/0 PVE build without the 3/3 improved backstab. I was wondering if there were any good suggestions on a new PVE build that incorporated the changed talent and maximized dps.
#1976SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3saedo
Originally Posted by Tryak View Post
In 2.4 with mutilate benefitting from the 15% crit of the old improved backstab talent it occurs to me that I should be rearranging my spec. Right now I am a very standard 41/20/0 PVE build without the 3/3 improved backstab. I was wondering if there were any good suggestions on a new PVE build that incorporated the changed talent and maximized dps.

Without knowing the specific spec you got... I'd guess dropping some of the poison talents, like maybe Improved Poisons for it. Assuming you didn't pick up any weird fillers.
#1977SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Damnathor
chardev.org - A World of Warcraft character planner v.2.beta
Enchanting/leather working character - unable to get hard khorium choker/bands.

9524 HP (600 stamina)
2361 AP (697 agi)
29.37% crit
26.12% hit
6.09 expertise (1.5%) (note: website does not seem to take in to account the expertise talent)
132 haste rating(+325 proc, +450 proc)
679 armor reduction (+840 proc, +300 proc)

Anyone see any improvements to this build?
#1978SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Tryak
Originally Posted by saedo View Post
Without knowing the specific spec you got... I'd guess dropping some of the poison talents, like maybe Improved Poisons for it. Assuming you didn't pick up any weird fillers.
WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Rogue -> Talent Calculator

Would you think dropping 3 points out of vile poisons would be better or drop 2 points out of murder and 1 out of vile poisons. Or I suppose fleet footed could go as well but that one was oh so nice in arena.
#1979SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3saedo
Originally Posted by Damnathor View Post
chardev.org - A World of Warcraft character planner v.2.beta
Enchanting/leather working character - unable to get hard khorium choker/bands.

Anyone see any improvements to this build?
Why can't you get [Hard Khorium Band]? It is BoE crafted. But if you really can't, [Band of Ruinous Delight] over [Ring of Deceitful Intent]. [Clutch of Demise] over [Choker of Endless Nightmares]
#1980SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3saedo
Originally Posted by Tryak View Post
Would you think dropping 3 points out of vile poisons would be better or drop 2 points out of murder and 1 out of vile poisons. Or I suppose fleet footed could go as well but that one was oh so nice in arena.
3 points out of Imp Kidney shot. You did say it was a PvE Build.
#1981SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Damnathor
Originally Posted by saedo View Post
My friend informed me incorrectly He said the band was BoP. Updated.

The stats below are with clutch of demise. It seems that choker may be better.

clutch stats:
9864 HP (634 stamina)
2388 AP (732 agi)
29.02% crit
23.59% hit
6.09 expertise (1.5%) (note: website does not seem to take in to account the expertise talent)
190 haste rating(+325 proc, +450 proc)
679 armor reduction (+840 proc, +300 proc)

choker:
9524 HP (600 stamina)
2370 AP (706 agi)
29.6% crit
24.92% hit
6.09 expertise (1.5%) (note: website does not seem to take in to account the expertise talent)
160 haste rating(+325 proc, +450 proc)
679 armor reduction (+840 proc, +300 proc)

-26 agi
-30 haste (2%)
-18 AP
+.58% crit
+1.32% hit
#1982SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3pib
Pib

Hey my guild is progressing very quickly and i was wondering if it is worth picking up the tier 5. I love the 2 piece bonus for tier 4 and my hit rating would suffer. It is not really that great unless i have the full set too. As of right now I'm letting everyone roll before me because to be nice / not waste my dkp. Im combat swords and here is my current gear The World of Warcraft Armory i normally put anywhere between 1000-1200 dps in a raid on trash/bosses. any help/ advice would be cool >_> oh and i just started raiding went through all of ssc and most of tk
#1983SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Tryak
I would rate the clutch of demise as better based on the difference in passive haste instead of simply looking at the raw hit/crit.
#1984SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3saedo
Originally Posted by Damnathor View Post
The stats below are with clutch of demise. It seems that choker may be better.

-26 agi
-30 haste (2%)
-18 AP
+.58% crit
+1.32% hit

DPS wise, they're close to each other. Spreadsheet to make sure. But then, Clutch has stam which is just bonus.
#1985SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3saedo
Originally Posted by pib View Post
Hey my guild is progressing very quickly and i was wondering if it is worth picking up the tier 5. I love the 2 piece bonus for tier 4 and my hit rating would suffer. It is not really that great unless i have the full set too. As of right now I'm letting everyone roll before me because to be nice / not waste my dkp. Im combat swords and here is my current gear The World of Warcraft Armory i normally put anywhere between 1000-1200 dps in a raid on trash/bosses. any help/ advice would be cool >_> oh and i just started raiding went through all of ssc and most of tk
Yes. T5 is pretty much piece for piece better than T4 (some pieces more so than others). Yes it drops hit, but increases your other dps stats, AP and crit. Hit isn't the end all of dps stats. The 2 set bonus for T4 is great, keep it til you can get the 4 set bonus T5 which is also great.
#1986SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Damnathor
Originally Posted by Tryak View Post
I would rate the clutch of demise as better based on the difference in passive haste instead of simply looking at the raw hit/crit.
Only reason why I tend to ignore haste in this case is because of two huge procs for it already - illidan swords and DST. When not hit capped, losing 1.3% hit rating just to increase your attack rate (and then missing more attacks, because you're attacking faster with a lower hit rating) by a small amount when you already have two huge procs for attack speed seemed unnecessary.


Edit: to the rogue asking about t4/t5, make sure you pick up [Bloodsea Brigand's Vest] to compensate for some of the hit loss.
#1987SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Aldriana
Originally Posted by Damnathor View Post
chardev.org - A World of Warcraft character planner v.2.beta
Enchanting/leather working character - unable to get hard khorium choker/bands.

9524 HP (600 stamina)
2361 AP (697 agi)
29.37% crit
26.12% hit
6.09 expertise (1.5%) (note: website does not seem to take in to account the expertise talent)
132 haste rating(+325 proc, +450 proc)
679 armor reduction (+840 proc, +300 proc)

Anyone see any improvements to this build?
I'm pretty sure there's a spreadsheet around to figure exactly this sort of thing out, but, as long as we're on the topic:
*I'd use WSC over MotB, but I'd be willing to bet money that Blackened Naaru Sliver is going to be better than either.
*Golden Bow of Quel'thalas is better than Blade of Life's Inevitability for PvE.
*A subtle point, but: I'd probably socket one more Glinting over a Delicate to get up to 298 hit rating. It is, of course, a matter of personal preference; but hit is better in most circumstances until you run into the level 70 hit cap, which is at 299. Since you're at 293, I'd add one more glinting to make 298.
*Mongoose on both hands is better than Executioner/Mongoose

I'd also note that ideally one would have a 2nd pair of Slayer's Boots socketing with a Glinting + enchanted with 12 agi, as well as Slayer's Gloves (Shifting) and Shoulderpads of Vehemence, to swap in on sustained boss fights, as that yields slightly higher damage. Though admittedly we're getting a bit nitpicky at this stage.

Originally Posted by Damnathor View Post
Only reason why I tend to ignore haste in this case is because of two huge procs for it already - illidan swords and DST. When not hit capped, losing 1.3% hit rating just to increase your attack rate (and then missing more attacks, because you're attacking faster with a lower hit rating) by a small amount when you already have two huge procs for attack speed seemed unnecessary.
Just because you already have some haste doesn't mean more isn't better. Stuffing it into the aforementioned spreadsheet finds Clutch is marginally ahead on DPS, and also gives a bunch of stamina and dodge, which seems pretty clearly better to me.
#1988SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3saedo
Originally Posted by Damnathor View Post
Only reason why I tend to ignore haste in this case is because of two huge procs for it already - illidan swords and DST. When not hit capped, losing 1.3% hit rating just to increase your attack rate (and then missing more attacks, because you're attacking faster with a lower hit rating) by a small amount when you already have two huge procs for attack speed seemed unnecessary.
These subtleties are what spreadsheets are for. I didn't plug the gear into one. I'm just basing answers off my own little wish list. For me at least, the Clutch is a 3.76 dps upgrade over the Choker. In my mind at least, that's a small upgrade, maybe it means more to other people. So, you should prob plug into a spreadsheet to see where it stands for you.
#1989SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3pib
i was told that Executioner/Mongoose is better then both Mongoose by almost every person I have ran into. Are they wrong? Honestly have no clue 0_o. I know the two stack because before i got my talon i had the bg swords both with mongoose on them, but i was told the armor pen was better.
#1990SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Aldriana
It was for a while believed that Executioner/Mongoose was better, but it turned out that that was due to a spreadsheet bug. About a month ago I found and fixed that bug, and since then I don't think there's been any coherent argument that Executioner is worth using for rogues.
#1991SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Damnathor
Because armor pen gets better the more you get, the fact that the rogue I posted already has 679, executioner is by far and away better than mongoose. 100 ap, 2.5% crit, 2% attack speed < ~7.5% dps increase.
#1992SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Myrx
Originally Posted by Damnathor View Post
Because armor pen gets better the more you get, the fact that the rogue I posted already has 679, executioner is by far and away better than mongoose. 100 ap, 2.5% crit, 2% attack speed < ~7.5% dps increase.
Stop now please.
#1993SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3saedo
Originally Posted by Damnathor View Post
Because armor pen gets better the more you get, the fact that the rogue I posted already has 679, executioner is by far and away better than mongoose. 100 ap, 2.5% crit, 2% attack speed < ~7.5% dps increase.
And why do you believe this is better?
#1994SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Tryak
pib, I agree with Saedo..double mongoose is better. For PvE mongoose represents an increase of 120 agi with added haste and procs quite often on both main and offhands.

Execution procs an armore ignore of 840 which is arguably of more benefit in PVP than in PVE. Most spreadsheets have executioner listed as roughly equal for pvp and pve benefit. However mongoose is still rated slightly higher for pvp and quite a bit higher for PVE.

http://shadowpanther.net/enchantments-pve.htm (AEP PvP, MAEP PvE)
#1995SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3pib
pib

Well thanks for all the info guys helped out allot.
#1996SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Slysprocket
Please educate a poor, uninformed Rogue. I have two weapons: [Mag'hari Fury Brand] and [Twin-Bladed Ripper]. I'm running with the following deep Subtlety Hemo build.

Using the DPS spreadsheet, I find that the stats from Mag'hari Fury Brand calculate as 28 AEP and the Twin-Bladed Ripper comes in at a higher 40.8. However, the Ripper has a lower median damage and is a Dagger, and so has a lower normalization factor. So, which weapon should I choose to maximize my DPS?
#1997SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Myrx
Originally Posted by Slysprocket View Post
Please educate a poor, uninformed Rogue. I have two weapons: [Mag'hari Fury Brand] and [Twin-Bladed Ripper]. I'm running with the following deep Subtlety Hemo build.

Using the DPS spreadsheet, I find that the stats from Mag'hari Fury Brand calculate as 28 AEP and the Twin-Bladed Ripper comes in at a higher 40.8. However, the Ripper has a lower median damage and is a Dagger, and so has a lower normalization factor. So, which weapon should I choose to maximize my DPS?
These weapons are from two completely different specs. Just put in your gear for one and choose the Fist and Combat Fists spec, and then put in the dagger and use the Combat Daggers spec.
#1998SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Bloodsiren
Originally Posted by Slysprocket View Post
Please educate a poor, uninformed Rogue. I have two weapons: [Mag'hari Fury Brand] and [Twin-Bladed Ripper]. I'm running with the following deep Subtlety Hemo build.

Using the DPS spreadsheet, I find that the stats from Mag'hari Fury Brand calculate as 28 AEP and the Twin-Bladed Ripper comes in at a higher 40.8. However, the Ripper has a lower median damage and is a Dagger, and so has a lower normalization factor. So, which weapon should I choose to maximize my DPS?

I am confused a little about your question. Are you asking which weapon to equip MH? With your specc, you need to have a dagger MH in order to use most of the abilities. If you want to improve dps, then you need to specc down the combat tree and take fist specialization and equip the fist weapon MH.
#1999SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3saedo
Originally Posted by Slysprocket View Post
Please educate a poor, uninformed Rogue. I have two weapons: [Mag'hari Fury Brand] and [Twin-Bladed Ripper]. I'm running with the following deep Subtlety Hemo build.

Using the DPS spreadsheet, I find that the stats from Mag'hari Fury Brand calculate as 28 AEP and the Twin-Bladed Ripper comes in at a higher 40.8. However, the Ripper has a lower median damage and is a Dagger, and so has a lower normalization factor. So, which weapon should I choose to maximize my DPS?
Yea my guess is that it's suggesting shadowstep backstabbing when you have the dagger and hemo fisting while using the fist. First step would be to fix the spec and spec around the weapon you want to use. Read the first post of this thread to pick a better spec.
#2000SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Tryak
Originally Posted by saedo View Post
3 points out of Imp Kidney shot. You did say it was a PvE Build.

Fair enough question based on what I asked. Let's say I have a 1600 rated 2v2 arena team and I would like to lose as little PVP functionality as possible from what I have in my current build, (I know pvp mut/sub is ideal but I dont want to shell out to respec for TK every week) but still pick up the imp bs 3/3 talent. Would this change your recommendation based on my spec on which talents I should drop? Build again to save you time: WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Rogue -> Talent Calculator
#2001SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Bloodsiren
Originally Posted by Tryak View Post
Fair enough question based on what I asked. Let's say I have a 1600 rated 2v2 arena team and I would like to lose as little PVP functionality as possible from what I have in my current build, (I know pvp mut/sub is ideal but I dont want to shell out to respec for TK every week) but still pick up the imp bs 3/3 talent. Would this change your recommendation based on my spec on which talents I should drop? Build again to save you time: WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Rogue -> Talent Calculator
I went ahead and specc'd mutilate for a couple of weeks while we were taking a short break from raiding. I took a pve mutilate specc 41/20/0 with 3 points imp poisons and 2 points vile. I put the 3 points in imp backstab because I was hoping the patch would come out while I was playing and I wouldn't have to respecc. I didn't see any problem in my arenas with this specc. That being said, I'm used to doing arenas as combat daggers so the mutilate specc was already a lot more fun and better in 3s and 5s. I don't think imp KS is really that necessary in arenas if you have a good team and good gear and it is pretty much useless in high-end raiding. If you want a pve/pvp mutilate specc, better to take the 3pts out of imp KS for the new puncturing wounds and in the combat tree go 3pts imp gouge and 2 pts SS instead and then your gouge gives you a little longer to regain energy and move behind the target for another mutilate quickly or you can gouge one target and move to the other to dps it down quickly.

This advice is based on my own experience and from what I've been reading in these forums. I'm not a great mathmetician so I can't show you any great formulas for why I think this would work better. But my experience as a mainly pve rogue has been that I can either arena with my pve specc and do ok, or I can pay to respecc on weekends to maximize my pvp abilities and then respecc again for raids. Currently, Blizzard doesn't really offer rogues a truly viable specc that we can raid with and consider also to be really good for pvp. You have to either gimp your pve dps or gimp your pvp abilities.
#2002SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3saedo
Originally Posted by Tryak View Post
Fair enough question based on what I asked. Let's say I have a 1600 rated 2v2 arena team and I would like to lose as little PVP functionality as possible from what I have in my current build, (I know pvp mut/sub is ideal but I dont want to shell out to respec for TK every week) but still pick up the imp bs 3/3 talent. Would this change your recommendation based on my spec on which talents I should drop? Build again to save you time: WorldofWarcraft.com -> Info -> Classes -> Rogue -> Talent Calculator
Vile Poisons then. It's usually a minor boost to dps.
#2003SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Slysprocket
Ah, sorry for the confusion; I was looking for the best MH weapon to increase my DPS without having pay for a respec and / or change my ability rotation ( CS, then Hemo until 4 - 5 point Evis, repeat ).

That is to say, I know how to change my spec / ability rot in order to increase my personal DPS, but assuming I'm too cheap / lazy to go that route, which affects my DPS more and why: the better stats of the Ripper or the higher Hemo damage of the Brand? Just trying to get a better general understanding of how weapon stats / speeds affect DPS in this particular scenario.
#2004SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3drumbum
Originally Posted by Damnathor View Post
Because armor pen gets better the more you get, the fact that the rogue I posted already has 679, executioner is by far and away better than mongoose. 100 ap, 2.5% crit, 2% attack speed < ~7.5% dps increase.
A Mongoose proc with Kings gives you 132 AP, 3.3% crit, and 2% haste (which stacks multiplicatively).

Your statement is simply unfounded. Spreadsheets show that even under extreme circumstances (i.e. all the best gear available in game), Executioner is only marginally superior to Mongoose, and usually only against low armor bosses. There is certainly no situation where it is "far and away better".
#2005SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Myrx
Originally Posted by drumbum View Post
A Mongoose proc with Kings gives you 132 AP, 3.3% crit, and 2% haste (which stacks multiplicatively).

Your statement is simply unfounded. Spreadsheets show that even under extreme circumstances (i.e. all the best gear available in game), Executioner is only marginally superior to Mongoose, and usually only against low armor bosses. There is certainly no situation where it is "far and away better".
And by marginal we're talking 1 dps.
#2006SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3drumbum
Originally Posted by Slysprocket View Post
That is to say, I know how to change my spec / ability rot in order to increase my personal DPS, but assuming I'm too cheap / lazy to go that route, which affects my DPS more and why: the better stats of the Ripper or the higher Hemo damage of the Brand? Just trying to get a better general understanding of how weapon stats / speeds affect DPS in this particular scenario.
The extra stats on the Ripper are negligible compared to the effect that weapon type and damage range would have on your Hemo damage.

Basically if you equip a dagger in your mainhand, your special attacks are normalized at 1.7 speed instead of 2.4 speed. What this essentially means is that your Hemo gains roughly 2/3 of the bonus damage from AP with a dagger when compared to what it would gain with a fist weapon, sword, or mace. When you combine this effect with the already lower average damage of the Ripper, your Hemos would hit for somewhere in the ballpark of 70% of what it would hit for with the fist weapon.

Dropping 30% of your Hemo damage would require a huge chunk of DPS stats to recover.
#2007SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Slysprocket
Originally Posted by drumbum View Post
The extra stats on the Ripper are negligible compared to the effect that weapon type and damage range would have on your Hemo damage.

Basically if you equip a dagger in your mainhand, your special attacks are normalized at 1.7 speed instead of 2.4 speed. What this essentially means is that your Hemo gains roughly 2/3 of the bonus damage from AP with a dagger when compared to what it would gain with a fist weapon, sword, or mace. When you combine this effect with the already lower average damage of the Ripper, your Hemos would hit for somewhere in the ballpark of 70% of what it would hit for with the fist weapon.

Dropping 30% of your Hemo damage would require a huge chunk of DPS stats to recover.
Ahhh, got it; totally clears things up. Thanks!
#2008SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Bluefish
Originally Posted by Damnathor View Post
Edit: to the rogue asking about t4/t5, make sure you pick up [Bloodsea Brigand's Vest] to compensate for some of the hit loss.
No. You pick up [Bloodsea Brigand's Vest] because it is good, not because it has hit. There is no magical hit number. It is simply another stat that increases your DPS. If the Brigand's Vest had 27 Agi instead of 27 hit, it would still be a strong upgrade.
#2009SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Dontmindme
So in the theorycraft front, I did some testing on the Level 72 Ogres above Shattrath. 2-4 damage daggers, fixed AP (except for an enrage from the Ogres - data during those periods excluded)

75 Glances in 463 attacks or 16.1987%.
Still a rather small sample size for pinning that down. Useful only for very basic range-finding.

Now the really interesting part...
Off-hand hits...
Either 149 or 150 average of 149.6822.
Off-hand glances range from 120-134 with an average of 127.6429
Average glance reduction of 85.2759%
Minimum glance of 120 = 80.0000% of 150 or 80.5369% of 149
Maximum glance of 134 = 89.3333% of 150 or 89.9329% of 149

Main-hand hits...
Either 199 or 200 or 201 with average of 199.6855.
Off-hand glances range from 160-179 with an average of 169.7179
Average glance reduction of 84.9926%
Minimum glance of 160 = 79.6020% of 201 or 80.4020% of 199
Maximum glance of 179 = 89.9497% of 150 or 89.0547% of 149

It really looks like the glances are 80-90% for an average of 85% vs. 72's. The 160 MH was probably a low roll.
#2010SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Latito
To add to DMM's data, but on a slightly different route.. I "finished" calculating my way through several hundred WWS reports.

I took data from Bloodboil (only non-Fel-Rage to help curb some luck streaks), Najentus, Mother Sharahz, Teron, Anetheron and Archimonde. I used data from all 4 rogues that have raided for my guild in the last ~7 months. While I didn't use a precise formula, anyone who "did bad dps" was excluded. None of the rogues in my guild sucked, so if their dps wasn't in the top 7 or 8 overall, its likely due to death or ghosting or excessive air burst or whatever - small sample data sizes. Note, I generally only took the 5-10 SLOWEST kills my guild has recorded. We're tanking 6 minute Terons, 9 minute Bloodboils, 7 minute Najentus', etc. This was to increase the sample size therefore reducing the margin of error.

I recorded Average Normal hit, Average Glance, # of Hits, # of Crits, # of Glances, # of Misses (the WWS one which includes parry / dodge). I then calculated, per fight, the average % dmg which glances did. This produced roughly ~125 "glancing reduction percent" numbers (one per parse per rogue). I averaged all 125 together. Next I calculated the chance to glance via # of Glance / Total # of attacks. This was done by summing hits, crits, etc up first. So, in the end:

Totals:	#	%
Hits	29194	40.34996%
Crits	19089	26.38351%
Glance	17425	24.08365%
Miss	6644	9.18288%
Sum:	72352	100.00%
		
Average Reduction:	0.246732
72k attacks, 24.08% chance to glance (24% I would assume) with .. roughly 24.5 to 25% dmg reduction. If someone whos name I recognize wants to look at the excel file, I can provide it via PM request. I'll probably toss you my guild WWS link as well - I listed report date, boss and rogue name on each line.

I'll attempt to help out this weekend similar stuff to what DMM is working on - a more systematic approach to finding exact glance reduction %. Obviously getting an entire range for a given AP will provide a much more exact answer as opposed to an average which includes various AP's, mixing of MH and OH data, etc.

On a side note.. what was your AP, DMM? Could figure out what your theoretical dmg range was on those attacks (after getting armor from kicks :S) was to cut back on some of the rounding issues and "oddities" like the 79.6% reduction which likely was just a low roll on something that was normally rounded up a bit. Were you seeming numbers over the whole range of glancing (from 80% to 90%) or just 80 and 90%? From your wording I am assuming the whole range.. wow thats a lot of random rolls being calculated server-side.
#2011SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Aldriana
With null hypothesis that glancing rate = 25%, we would be 5.7 standard deviations from the mean (aka, no).

With null hypothesis that glancing rate = 24%, we would be within .53 standard deviations from the mean (aka, yes).

Thus, we can say with high confidence that the glancing rate is 24%.

As for the average reduction... I'll have to think a bit to see if there's some statistics we can grind on that. But given DMM's preliminary data, a 24% chance to have a 20-30% reduction seems most likely at the moment, as it's also consistent with your data.
#2012SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3nelalas
Originally Posted by Latito View Post
I recorded Average Normal hit, Average Glance, # of Hits, # of Crits, # of Glances, # of Misses (the WWS one which includes parry / dodge). I then calculated, per fight, the average % dmg which glances did. This produced roughly ~125 "glancing reduction percent" numbers (one per parse per rogue). I averaged all 125 together. Next I calculated the chance to glance via # of Glance / Total # of attacks. This was done by summing hits, crits, etc up first. So, in the end:

Totals:	#	%
Hits	29194	40.34996%
Crits	19089	26.38351%
Glance	17425	24.08365%
Miss	6644	9.18288%
Sum:	72352	100.00%
		
Average Reduction:	0.246732
72k attacks, 24.08% chance to glance (24% I would assume) with .. roughly 24.5 to 25% dmg reduction. If someone whos name I recognize wants to look at the excel file, I can provide it via PM request. I'll probably toss you my guild WWS link as well - I listed report date, boss and rogue name on each line.
One-proportion z-test for your data:

p_{\mu} = .25
q_\mu = 1 - .25 = .75
p_s = .2408365
n = 17425
\alpha = 0.05

s_p = \sqrt{\frac{p_\mu q_\mu}{n}} = \sqrt{\frac{.25(.75)}{17425}} = 0.0033

Z = \frac{p_s - p_\mu}{s_p} = \frac{.2408365 - .25}{0.0033} = -2.78

Z_{critical, \alpha /2} = 1.96

|Z| > 1.96

According to Latito's sample, there is sufficient evidence to reject the null hypothesis that the glancing blow rate is 25%, as is currently thought, at an \alpha value of 0.05 (there is a 5% chance that the extreme value observed is due to chance). It would be nice to check this from others and to make sure that the logs for these are correctly parsed such that there are no glances on trash mobs in there. It's also past 3am here and I'm tired so please check my math.
#2013SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3MonikaRed
One (stupid?) question about hit cap : I managed to find the +hit i need against raid bosses, other players, but what about 10man raid trashes and heroics dungeons ? I'm nearing the cap actually I suppose I have to reduce hit for ap/crit against theses mobs in order to optimize my dps
#2014SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3kwinto
Originally Posted by Bluefish View Post
No. You pick up [Bloodsea Brigand's Vest] because it is good, not because it has hit. There is no magical hit number. It is simply another stat that increases your DPS. If the Brigand's Vest had 27 Agi instead of 27 hit, it would still be a strong upgrade.
What should be the minimal hit a combat rogue must have then? I'm currently 2*Sword (after Talon of Azshara finally dropped) and I finally switched from 2*T4 to almost full 2.3 badge/ZA outfit (I love the tribal look of it :) ). I found it better according to spreadshets, but I don't feel too comfortable with really sorry 225 hit rating. I'm aware that linear spreadsheets calculations might not be accurate at extremely low or high stat values, so my question is: When hit rating is absolutely too low even if spreadsheets say otherwise?

[Yes, I know, [Shifting Nightseye] in belt is a mistake, it's a souvenir after meta requirements and I plan to get 2.4 badge belt anyway :> ]
#2015SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3AtADeadRun
Originally Posted by kwinto View Post
What should be the minimal hit a combat rogue must have then?
There is no such thing. You gear for the most DPS, and the optimum -- and minimum -- hit for that build and gearset is... whatever you get. Don't worry about your hit falling too low; if you're still putting up the numbers, it doesn't matter how they're getting there, be it lots of little hits from gearing for hit or fewer, bigger ones because you have more AP and crit.
#2016SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Left
Originally Posted by kwinto View Post
What should be the minimal hit a combat rogue must have then? I'm currently 2*Sword (after Talon of Azshara finally dropped) and I finally switched from 2*T4 to almost full 2.3 badge/ZA outfit (I love the tribal look of it ). I found it better according to spreadshets, but I don't feel too comfortable with really sorry 225 hit rating. I'm aware that linear spreadsheets calculations might not be accurate at extremely low or high stat values, so my question is: When hit rating is absolutely too low even if spreadsheets say otherwise?

...
Originally Posted by AtADeadRun View Post
There is no such thing. You gear for the most DPS, and the optimum -- and minimum -- hit for that build and gearset is... whatever you get. Don't worry about your hit falling too low; if you're still putting up the numbers, it doesn't matter how they're getting there, be it lots of little hits from gearing for hit or fewer, bigger ones because you have more AP and crit.
Well, almost. In general, the "minimum" hit that a rogue should have is an amount of hit rating that makes your special attacks unmissable. This is +9% (142 hit rating) for boss mobs, or +4% (63 hit rating) if you have 5/5 precision. Below this hit cap for specials, hit becomes much more valuable. You should aim to have at least enough +hit to be hit capped on specials, as it makes cycles much smoother and more reliable to maintain, as well as preventing your finishers from missing.

That said, it is true that the value of hit rating is quantifiable even below the hit cap on specials. If you had, for example, 130 hit rating and no precision and were offered the choice between gaining 1 hit rating or 100 agility, then clearly the agility would be superior. However, due to itemization, when below the hit cap on specials you are most likely to find that gear with +hit will increase your DPS the most, due solely to the increased value of +hit at such low levels of hit.
#2017SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3AtADeadRun
Originally Posted by Left View Post
In general, the "minimum" hit that a rogue should have is an amount of hit rating that makes your special attacks unmissable.
Granted. But the gent in question was worried about being too low at 225 with precision, rather than 20 without it. Perhaps I took that as being too obvious to really need saying.
#2018SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3drumbum
Originally Posted by kwinto View Post
I'm aware that linear spreadsheets calculations might not be accurate at extremely low or high stat values, so my question is: When hit rating is absolutely too low even if spreadsheets say otherwise?
I'm not sure why you believe the spreadsheets would become inaccurate at high or low stat values but that doesn't make sense to me at all. Neither of them makes the assumption that stats behave linearly. Their models should be just as accurate at 0 hit rating as at 300 hit rating, barring any possible bugs.
#2019SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Aldriana
Originally Posted by Left View Post
Well, almost. In general, the "minimum" hit that a rogue should have is an amount of hit rating that makes your special attacks unmissable. This is +9% (142 hit rating) for boss mobs, or +4% (63 hit rating) if you have 5/5 precision. Below this hit cap for specials, hit becomes much more valuable. You should aim to have at least enough +hit to be hit capped on specials, as it makes cycles much smoother and more reliable to maintain, as well as preventing your finishers from missing.

That said, it is true that the value of hit rating is quantifiable even below the hit cap on specials. If you had, for example, 130 hit rating and no precision and were offered the choice between gaining 1 hit rating or 100 agility, then clearly the agility would be superior. However, due to itemization, when below the hit cap on specials you are most likely to find that gear with +hit will increase your DPS the most, due solely to the increased value of +hit at such low levels of hit.
I think this point has been discussed before, but: even the yellow hit cap isn't a hard-and-fast minimum from a DPS perspective. Even below this point, you want to pick the gear that gives you the highest damage contribution - whatever that happens to be. Now, hit does become somewhat more valuable, so hit items will become correspondingly better... but if it so happens that the very highest DPS item you can get for every slot totals to 0 hit rating... well, then, you have 0 hit rating.

It also might be noted that hit below the yellow hit cap doesn't increase your damage as much as you might think; hit below the yellow hit cap has basically the same benefit as Expertise, which is only about 10% more valuable than hit. Now, if your hit is that low, your white damage is probably a slightly lower fraction of your damage, meaning that the yellow DPS portion will be *somewhat* more important - but we're still talking an increase of at most 20% to the DPS contribution of hit.

That said: there is a *bit* of an argument that can be made for stacking hit to get to the yellow hit cap, even if it costs you DPS, namely that making your specials unmissable is reasonably important on fights where you need to kick, which there are a few of at the T4 level (Aran, Mag). So from that perspective, getting up to the yellow hit cap might make sense even at the loss of DPS - but it isn't the case that getting to the yellow hit cap is necessarily what's going to maximize DPS.

Of course, this is all extremely theoretical, as it's almost impossible to be wearing halfway decent gear and have hit that low. But the point remains: even at hit as low as that, you still want to be picking what's best, independent of how much hit it may or may not have.
#2020SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3kwinto
Thanks for your comments, they made me less worrying about my current gear selection.
So I'd like to make last thing clear: Even having about 250 hit rating, and having to choose between one item with 23 AP and the other with 10 Hit (both 23 EP), it's better to get the first one (AP), as it may serve better on trashes and in heroics and give me more freedom with gem and consumable selections before hit cap?
#2021SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Aldriana
You might check the spreadsheet(s) to make sure that the equivalence is true for your exact gear/buff setup; but as a general rule, I would say yes. Because hit (along with haste and expertise) are what I call "white damage stats" - stats that boost only your white and not your yellow damage - they don't tend to scale as well for interrupted fights as they do for the theoretical sustained fight modeled in the spreadsheets; thus, for interrupted fights, their value can be up to 5% lower, which doesn't really change the overall value of the stats that much but does mean that in the event of a tie, I believe it's better to go with yellow damage stats (crit, AP, arPen) than white damage stats assuming that the DPS output is otherwise identical/comparable.
#2022SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3NvidiaN
I had heard that 2.4 was making bleed immune mobs no longer immune. Granted I don't know if this is true or not, but if it were true, it would make the 2pt5 set bonus effectively useless, correct? Have any of you heard of this, and if it's true would you happen to know whether or not there are plans to revamp our 2pt5 set bonus into something viable?
#2023SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Aldriana
Frankly, the T5 2/5 has been more or less useless as it is; there aren't that many bleed-immune bosses in 25-man content, and even on the ones that do exist the 2/5 bonus is hardly earthshaking. In practice, it was almost useless before, so I don't really see them changing it now, nor have I heard anything about such a plan.
#2024SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3drumbum
Specifically, these are the changes to mob immunities according to the current PTR patch notes:

  • Non-corporeal Undead and Mechanical creatures are now susceptible to bleed effects.
  • Elemental creatures are no longer explicitly immune to poison and disease effects. Elementals with nature school immunities will still be immune to nature-based poisons, however.
#2025SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Aldriana
If I'm reading that correctly, Hydross would thus still be rupture-immune? The only 25-man bosses that appear to be explicitly covered by that are Void Reaver and Doomwalker, though it might effect Supremus as well. Either way, it doesn't seem to me to be a significant enough change in the value of 2/5 T5 that I would expect a change to it.
#2026SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Ruqas
I feel kinda dumb after the epiphany I just had; that expertise is worth more after you reach the hit cap for specials because specials can still be dodged at the same amount. Therefore, hit rating goes down, and expertise remains the same. Previously, I did not understand why this was so, since expertise converted at an equal rate to hit.

However, I still don't understand why haste is worth less. I would appreciate an explanation as to why this is.
#2027SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Myrx
Originally Posted by Ruqas View Post
I feel kinda dumb after the epiphany I just had; that expertise is worth more after you reach the hit cap for specials because specials can still be dodged at the same amount. Therefore, hit rating goes down, and expertise remains the same. Previously, I did not understand why this was so, since expertise converted at an equal rate to hit.

However, I still don't understand why haste is worth less. I would appreciate an explanation as to why this is.
Expertise also lowers the chance for extraneous Parries in addition to the Dodge reduction. Many fights you will encounter such parries. One fight for example is Teron Gorefiend. Any boss that turns to cast on someone opens a window to get parries.
#2028SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Shaker
As I've noted before in this thread, especially on Teron (who requires 0 tank movement, and has no frontal cone/cleave abilities), it is relatively easy to position him such that your melee dps are impacted minimally by it.

Basically have him face 90 degrees from the approach (i.e. he's looking at the raid before he's aggro'd, have him facing 90 degrees left or RIGHT based off that initial positioning), and have the melee dps stand at 4 or 8 o'clock (based on which way he's facing). This means he's either facing the tank, or most of the time when he turns to face the raid and cast, he's still not parrying melee. You will still get a few parries when he turns to incinerate/shadow the melee, but that's generally 20% of the raid or so, which is a pretty big improvement.
#2029SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Aldriana
Originally Posted by Ruqas View Post
However, I still don't understand why haste is worth less. I would appreciate an explanation as to why this is.
Well, the initial answer I might give is: why *shouldn't* it give less? It's a fundamentally different mechanic, what reason is there to expect that a totally different mechanic is going to have the same value?

But, lets take a minute to drill down into specifics. Consider the following hypothetical experiment: lets say I have a 90% hit rate, and no haste rating. I make 1000 attacks. Of these, I generate 900 hits.

If I increase my hit rating by 1% - to 91% - I generate .91 * 1000 = 910 hits.

If I gain 1% passive haste, I now launch 1010 attacks in the same amount of time; thus, I generate 1010 * .9 = 909 hits.

Hence, 1% haste and 1% hit generate different numbers of attacks, depending on your current value of both stats; in particular, the value of haste scales with hit, and the value of hit scales with haste; but neither scales with itself. Thus, the more haste you have, the more hit is worth; the more hit you have, the more haste is worth. However, since your hit chance will never excede 1, nor will your haste multiplier go under 1, this scaling will always cause hit to be more valuable than haste in equal quantity.

Also, haste does not increase the number of PPM procs you get; it does not increase the uptime of any Mongoose, Executioner, Dragonspine Trophy, Madness of the Betrayer, etc. procs you may have. Hit, on the other hand, does. This is a 2nd major advantage for hit.

There's also any number of second-order effects that may come into play, not all of which are totally understood. These may or may not favor hit or haste.

In the end: they're two different stats that both increase white damage, but do so in different ways; asking why they don't have the same value is like asking why AP and ArPen don't scale equally, because they both increase the damage of each attack. The mechanics are different, so the values can be as well - it's really just that simple.
#2030SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3rhea
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
If I'm reading that correctly, Hydross would thus still be rupture-immune? The only 25-man bosses that appear to be explicitly covered by that are Void Reaver and Doomwalker, though it might effect Supremus as well. Either way, it doesn't seem to me to be a significant enough change in the value of 2/5 T5 that I would expect a change to it.
Hydross will be immune to poisons in nature phase but not in frost phase. Supremus will not be immune to poisons at all it seems. Bleed is different to poisons, so it does nothing to rupture.
"non-corporeal" means ghosts and electric-clouds etc.? It wouldn't affect VR then.
#2031SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Aldriana
"Non-corporeal" does not apply to VR, but "Mechanical" does.

On the poison front, Supremus is already susceptible to poisons, so the only change is that DP works on VR in nature phase.
#2032SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Dontmindme
Originally Posted by Latito View Post
To add to DMM's data, but on a slightly different route.. I "finished" calculating my way through several hundred WWS reports.

I took data from Bloodboil (only non-Fel-Rage to help curb some luck streaks), Najentus, Mother Sharahz, Teron, Anetheron and Archimonde. I used data from all 4 rogues that have raided for my guild in the last ~7 months. While I didn't use a precise formula, anyone who "did bad dps" was excluded. None of the rogues in my guild sucked, so if their dps wasn't in the top 7 or 8 overall, its likely due to death or ghosting or excessive air burst or whatever - small sample data sizes. Note, I generally only took the 5-10 SLOWEST kills my guild has recorded. We're tanking 6 minute Terons, 9 minute Bloodboils, 7 minute Najentus', etc. This was to increase the sample size therefore reducing the margin of error.

I recorded Average Normal hit, Average Glance, # of Hits, # of Crits, # of Glances, # of Misses (the WWS one which includes parry / dodge). I then calculated, per fight, the average % dmg which glances did. This produced roughly ~125 "glancing reduction percent" numbers (one per parse per rogue). I averaged all 125 together. Next I calculated the chance to glance via # of Glance / Total # of attacks. This was done by summing hits, crits, etc up first. So, in the end:

Totals:	#	%
Hits	29194	40.34996%
Crits	19089	26.38351%
Glance	17425	24.08365%
Miss	6644	9.18288%
Sum:	72352	100.00%
		
Average Reduction:	0.246732
72k attacks, 24.08% chance to glance (24% I would assume) with .. roughly 24.5 to 25% dmg reduction. If someone whos name I recognize wants to look at the excel file, I can provide it via PM request. I'll probably toss you my guild WWS link as well - I listed report date, boss and rogue name on each line.

I'll attempt to help out this weekend similar stuff to what DMM is working on - a more systematic approach to finding exact glance reduction %. Obviously getting an entire range for a given AP will provide a much more exact answer as opposed to an average which includes various AP's, mixing of MH and OH data, etc.

On a side note.. what was your AP, DMM? Could figure out what your theoretical dmg range was on those attacks (after getting armor from kicks :S) was to cut back on some of the rounding issues and "oddities" like the 79.6% reduction which likely was just a low roll on something that was normally rounded up a bit. Were you seeming numbers over the whole range of glancing (from 80% to 90%) or just 80 and 90%? From your wording I am assuming the whole range.. wow thats a lot of random rolls being calculated server-side.
Well AP is 1629. Armor penetration comes to 644. I also have 2 ranks in Murder and they are murderable. The 79.6 is an extreme is in it could have been as low as 79.6% is the roll was at the high end of the scale. But if the roll were at the low end, it's within the 80% window. Yes, the glances cover the whole range. It's too bad there are no 2-2 damage weapons, it would be a lot easier for testing.
#2033SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Aldriana
A 2-2 weapon would certainly make life easier, but I think if we can gather enough data with a 2-4 speed weapon, we can probably crunch the numbers and make this work. I'm not sure if the 75 you already have will be enough, but it might be; we simply need to look at the statistical distribution of attacks across allowed values. Could you post either a) your raw data or b) the number of attacks you landed that did each amount of damage, for both glancing and regular? Thanks.
#2034SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3aylene
Lately I've been testing something for improving my special attack damage, although this might be obvious and something you do every raid. It all started with a jaw-dropping 3.8k-ish sinister strike during a boss encounter followed by alot lesser ones. I do realize this is purely anecdotal but it's the mechanics I want to discuss.

Please note that this sinister strike wasn't during some buff similar to Fel Rage or on a caster-like boss, nor did I have any type of world buff, Darkmoon Faire buff or anything the like. We didn't even have a warrior with Solarian trinket equipped. Although this was a demon in Mt Hyjal and I do have 2/2 glaives I didn't have elixir of demonslaying. We didn't have any special buffs for melee outside of the regular ones. No hemo-rogue, no rogue with Imp EA sacrificing damage with a feral druid for maintank (which is a fun thing really), nothing the like. No Gift of Arthas. Just a regular raid with 5x Sunder and CoR, though I do believe this had to be one of the few raids we bring a blood frenzy-specced warrior.

I started to think about it and came to the conclusion it had to be either a really lucky roll in the RNG with every proc running and the fact I have 200 extra attack power vs demons from the set bonus, or it had something to do with the extra attack power attached to a windfury attack. The later one sounded alot more interesting so I started to check it out. I didn't find anything in the newer rogue threads, although this could be something that was proven ages ago, so I dropped it for a few weeks. Then I found something in the warrior thread The Protection Warrior in chapter VIIIc. Skill Rotations. In the end of this chapter the author claims it is possible to do heroic strikes on the attack that procs windfury attacks as well as the windfury proc, meaning there's a period of time where this attack power boost is subject (in theory) to be used for other instants as well.

I am not deeply acquainted with the exact mechanics of our beloved windfury totem, but I would want to discuss whether there's a period of time when you trigger a windfury attack where your extra AP from the windfury attack can be used for an instant (such as a sinister strike or a finishing move as rupture) or not.
#2035SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Aldriana
So, I haven't tested this myself, nor have I seen the formal testing of this (which might mean it's time to test it again, but anyway); however, my understanding is that a Windfury proc, despite what the tooltip says, actually does two different things:

1) It grants one extra attack, and
2) It grants a 1.5 second buff that increases your attack power by the amount listed in the tooltip.

What this means is that other attacks can occur during the WF buff, and do in fact benefit from the AP. In practice, as the uptime is small and one generally has latency, trying to time attacks against it is tricky; but it can be done.

It might be noted, however, that 445 AP (or 578, with talent), while certainly nice, isn't going to totally account for megacrits by itself. 578 AP is +41 DPS (or so) - on an instant attack (normalized to 2.4) that works out to about +99 damage, or about 240 damage, premitigation, on a crit. After mitigation, it's going to be about 200 damage. So it turns a 3.6k SS crit into a 3.8k SS crit, but there's clearly other things going on here.

My suspicion is that these megacrits are usually due to all your buffs cosmically aligning and happening to hit all together. WSC, Executioner, and Mongoose all up, during the WF buff, with a roll that happens to be max damage in the first place... and so on. Consider: if we neglect mitigation entirely (which is actually possible if Exec and Mongoose both proc), a 3.8k crit is an unmitigated 1560 noncrit; we have a x1.06 multiplier from aggression, x1.1 from surprise attacks, and x1.06 from Slayer's; this is a base of 1260. You get 98 from SS, plus 398 from a max-roll warglaive hit, means one needs to get 765 damage from Attack Power; this would require 765/2.4 * 14 = 4463 AP. Now, this is a lot, to be sure, but with full raid buffs, the Warglaives set bonus, the WF proc, Unleashed rage, etc., it's within the realm of possibility.

Now, the other interesting thing I noticed today (which probably is worth testing to be sure) is that in the combat log, the beginning of the Windfury buff appears after the WF attack has actually occurred; thus, one is forced to wonder if the WF attack itself actually benefits from the buff, or only any other attacks that happen to occur within 1.5 seconds thereafter. Best way to test is probably 2 low-damage weapons in Blasted Lands, with a shaman to drop totem and heal you - shouldn't take more than a few minutes to see what's happening.
#2036SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Latito
On the WF buff topic - yes, it works as Ald mentioned with a hidden ~1 sec AP buff. Timing Sinister Strikes and Ruptures to fall in there would be.. difficult at best. Considering a WF-buffed Rupture only gains an extra ~100-150 dmg.. roughly the same for SS after Crit and Armor modifications.. its just too tight to accurately and reliably do, for a fairly small buff. That said, as long as you don't cap out your energy it won't hurt to try - although I'm not entirely convinced a person would be disciplined enough to never wait too long and let energy cap out, effectively nullifying any gain (and then some) that they may or may not have obtained. Good luck though!

Logs to back it up: (From some sword spec / WF proc testing 2 months ago, using [Heartless])
1/1 20:19:51.640  You hit Servant of Allistarj for 535.			<-- Normal attack
1/1 20:19:54.046  You gain 1 extra attack through Windfury Attack.
1/1 20:19:54.046  You crit Servant of Allistarj for 905.		<-- Crit which procs WF, normal AP
1/1 20:19:54.250  You gain Windfury Attack.
1/1 20:19:54.250  You gain 1 extra attack through Sword Specialization.	<-- My WF attack procs Sword Spec
1/1 20:19:54.265  You hit Servant of Allistarj for 547.			<-- Higher AP WF attack (Normal and WF range overlap a bit in this test)
1/1 20:19:54.640  You crit Servant of Allistarj for 1278.		<-- Definitely has higher AP
1/1 20:19:55.453  Windfury Attack fades from you.
1/1 20:19:56.359  You hit Servant of Allistarj for 490.

and then 20 seconds later..
1/1 20:20:11.046  You gain 1 extra attack through Windfury Attack.
1/1 20:20:11.046  You crit Servant of Allistarj for 899.		<-- No extra AP
1/1 20:20:11.046  You gain Windfury Attack.
1/1 20:20:11.046  You gain 1 extra attack through Sword Specialization.
1/1 20:20:11.062  You hit Servant of Allistarj for 604.			<-- Certainly has extra AP
1/1 20:20:11.453  You hit Servant of Allistarj for 503.			<-- Hard to call, but some non-WF hits were in the 430's
1/1 20:20:12.343  Windfury Attack fades from you.
1/1 20:20:13.359  You gain 1 extra attack through Sword Specialization.
1/1 20:20:13.359  You gain 1 extra attack through Windfury Attack.
1/1 20:20:13.359  You hit Servant of Allistarj for 455.			<-- No extra AP
1/1 20:20:13.421  You gain Windfury Attack.
1/1 20:20:13.421  You hit Servant of Allistarj for 535.			<-- Again, hard to call but probably has higher AP
1/1 20:20:13.421  You crit Servant of Allistarj for 1259.		<-- Certainly higher AP
1/1 20:20:14.359  Windfury Attack fades from you.
1/1 20:20:15.828  You crit Servant of Allistarj for 1112.		<-- No added AP (probably)




Slightly off on a tangent, if anyone can figure out what is going on here.. well I'm pretty baffled.
Wow Web Stats
Specifically, the events around 20:44'29. My best guess is that the +15 energy lines are actually 1 second delayed and sinister stike proc'd a sword spec, which proc'd WF, which proc'd another sword spec. 2 of which crit and my MH/OH autos missed. I obviously knew SS and WF could inter-proc, and Sinister Strike could proc Sword Spec.. but DAMN thats not an easy one to read, especially when I started by looking at the energy regen procs with the assumption they appear ~0.2 seconds late.
#2037SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Aldriana
Wow... that *is* wierd. Let me take a crack at this:

A: 20:44'27.312 Latito's Melee hits Mother Shahraz for 208 (glancing)
B: 20:44'27.500 Latito's Melee misses Mother Shahraz
C: 20:44'28.187 Latito's Melee crits Mother Shahraz for 542
D: 20:44'28.343 Latito gains 15 Energy from Combat Potency
E: 20:44'29.109 Latito gains 1 extra attack through Sword Specialization
F: 20:44'29.171 Latito gains 15 Energy from Combat Potency
G: 20:44'29.171 Latito's Sinister Strike hits Mother Shahraz for 865
H: 20:44'29.171 Latito's Melee misses Mother Shahraz
I: 20:44'29.328 Latito's Melee misses Mother Shahraz
J: 20:44'29.421 Latito gains 1 extra attack through Windfury Attack
K: 20:44'29.421 Latito's Melee crits Mother Shahraz for 1305
L: 20:44'29.515 Latito gains Windfury Attack
M: 20:44'29.531 Latito gains 1 extra attack through Sword Specialization
N: 20:44'29.531 Latito's Melee crits Mother Shahraz for 1534
O: 20:44'30.015 Latito's Melee hits Mother Shahraz for 619
P: 20:44'30.296 Latito's Melee hits Mother Shahraz for 185 (glancing)

So, the first thing to note is that there are only 7 hits here; OH hits in lines A , C, and P; MH hits in lines K, N, and O; and the SS in line G. Thus, everything that procs must proc off one of these effects

Now, D and F must be procced by OH attacks (unless there's some wierd unknown mechanic happening here, anyway); the only possible options are A and C, so I guess we're saying A procced D and C procced F. The 1 sec delay is odd, although I'm pretty sure I've seen such things before. now E is procced by... something. My guess would be the SS in line G, but it doesn't really much matter; suffice it to say, a SS proc occurs; this is presumably line H based on the time stamps. Now, the conundrum is the WF in line J; since WF can't proc off SS or OH attacks, the only possible options for the triggering attack are K, N, and O; since N and O are way too late, I think we have to assume it's K. We also get an additional MH attack from the SS proc in row M. These both need to be MH swings. Fortunately, I think there's an easy resolution: you'll note that if J is a natural MH autoattack, neither N nor O can be an autoattack, as they occur within .6 seconds of J. Thus, I think the only reasonable explanation is that N and O are the WF and SS procs (in some order), and I is an OH autoattack (which fits timewise - it's spaced 1.1 to 1.2 seconds from each of C and P) This is weird in that line O is pretty late to be a proc hit, but I see no other explanation.

Thus, we have:

A: 20:44'27.312 Latito's Melee hits Mother Shahraz for 208 (glancing) --OH Hit
B: 20:44'27.500 Latito's Melee misses Mother Shahraz --MH Miss
C: 20:44'28.187 Latito's Melee crits Mother Shahraz for 542 --OH Hit
D: 20:44'28.343 Latito gains 15 Energy from Combat Potency --Procced by A
E: 20:44'29.109 Latito gains 1 extra attack through Sword Specialization --Probably procced by G; possibly by C
F: 20:44'29.171 Latito gains 15 Energy from Combat Potency --Procced by C
G: 20:44'29.171 Latito's Sinister Strike hits Mother Shahraz for 865 --SS Hit
H: 20:44'29.171 Latito's Melee misses Mother Shahraz --Sword Spec proc misses
I: 20:44'29.328 Latito's Melee misses Mother Shahraz --OH Miss
J: 20:44'29.421 Latito gains 1 extra attack through Windfury Attack --Procced by K
K: 20:44'29.421 Latito's Melee crits Mother Shahraz for 1305 --MH Hit
L: 20:44'29.515 Latito gains Windfury Attack --Buff generated by J
M: 20:44'29.531 Latito gains 1 extra attack through Sword Specialization --Procced by either N or G; I'd guess N
N: 20:44'29.531 Latito's Melee crits Mother Shahraz for 1534 --WF Proc hits
O: 20:44'30.015 Latito's Melee hits Mother Shahraz for 619 --Sword Spec proc hits
P: 20:44'30.296 Latito's Melee hits Mother Shahraz for 185 (glancing) --OH Hit

The delays do make things confusing, but I don't really see any other sensible interpretation. And I do recall hearing the rule of thumb that procs can be up to 1 second after the triggering attack, so, messy as it is, this seems entirely reasonable.
#2038SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3aylene
Originally Posted by Latito View Post
On the WF buff topic - yes, it works as Ald mentioned with a hidden ~1 sec AP buff. Timing Sinister Strikes and Ruptures to fall in there would be.. difficult at best. Considering a WF-buffed Rupture only gains an extra ~100-150 dmg.. roughly the same for SS after Crit and Armor modifications.. its just too tight to accurately and reliably do, for a fairly small buff. That said, as long as you don't cap out your energy it won't hurt to try - although I'm not entirely convinced a person would be disciplined enough to never wait too long and let energy cap out, effectively nullifying any gain (and then some) that they may or may not have obtained. Good luck though!
Why, thanks. :-) I always said rogue is one of the easiest classes to play good but the hardest to truly master.

I've already found out that it is close to impossible to try to time every SS and rupture to a WF buff, and I don't think it would yield any higher damage output in the end due to the erronously nature that is human. What I'm keeping in mind is that only when certain circumstances apply, one should try to look out for a WF proc before using his or hers energy. These circumstances ends out to be quite strict and there's a few of them so they pretty much outrule waiting for sinisters and ruptures most of the time.

On a sidenote, rupture gets outruled all the time in my book due to the high risk of capping out energy (5 cp's yield 25 energy from RS). Though my gut feeling isn't a scientific evidence I don't believe delaying the cycle yields higher damage in the end either, since I already have a problem with overlapping ruptures when I'm lucky with combat potency gains. Thus I'm focusing in finding the WF-moments for sinister strike instead. By WF-moments I mean when there's no damage to be gained by playing smart except for holding that sinister strike back until either the last second before energy caps out or until WF actually procs.

What circumstances form these WF-moments?

- One has to have below 80 energy and obviously above 40 for sinister rogues, and no tick the closest second that caps out energy alongside with a bad timed combat potency.

- One has to have below 5 combo points, since one is better off using the 5 cp's on a finishing move in most cases.

- The obvious one: if one is below 5 combo points but slice n' dice times out it's clearly better to renew SnD instead of waiting for a WF-moment.

And the last but not the least, one has to have windfury totem.

Let's say we manage to use the WF-moments a few times during a fight we actually would gain quite some damage in the end. I encourage you other rogues to try this as well, it really brings complexity! Too bad practical issues negates the moments to actually play a rogue like this. At current date I only find this playstyle really useful on Anetheron and Teron Gorefiend.
#2039SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Latito
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
A: 20:44'27.312 Latito's Melee hits Mother Shahraz for 208 (glancing) --OH Hit
B: 20:44'27.500 Latito's Melee misses Mother Shahraz --MH Miss
C: 20:44'28.187 Latito's Melee crits Mother Shahraz for 542 --OH Hit
D: 20:44'28.343 Latito gains 15 Energy from Combat Potency --Procced by A
E: 20:44'29.109 Latito gains 1 extra attack through Sword Specialization --Probably procced by G; possibly by C
F: 20:44'29.171 Latito gains 15 Energy from Combat Potency --Procced by C
G: 20:44'29.171 Latito's Sinister Strike hits Mother Shahraz for 865 --SS Hit
H: 20:44'29.171 Latito's Melee misses Mother Shahraz --Sword Spec proc misses
I: 20:44'29.328 Latito's Melee misses Mother Shahraz --OH Miss
J: 20:44'29.421 Latito gains 1 extra attack through Windfury Attack --Procced by K
K: 20:44'29.421 Latito's Melee crits Mother Shahraz for 1305 --MH Hit
L: 20:44'29.515 Latito gains Windfury Attack --Buff generated by J
M: 20:44'29.531 Latito gains 1 extra attack through Sword Specialization --Procced by either N or G; I'd guess N
N: 20:44'29.531 Latito's Melee crits Mother Shahraz for 1534 --WF Proc hits
O: 20:44'30.015 Latito's Melee hits Mother Shahraz for 619 --Sword Spec proc hits
P: 20:44'30.296 Latito's Melee hits Mother Shahraz for 185 (glancing) --OH Hit
I was reading it as:
A: 20:44'27.312 Latito's Melee hits Mother Shahraz for 208 (glancing) --OH Hit
B: 20:44'27.500 Latito's Melee misses Mother Shahraz --MH Miss
C: 20:44'28.187 Latito's Melee crits Mother Shahraz for 542 --OH Hit
D: 20:44'28.343 Latito gains 15 Energy from Combat Potency --Procced by A
E: 20:44'29.109 Latito gains 1 extra attack through Sword Specialization --Procced by G
F: 20:44'29.171 Latito gains 15 Energy from Combat Potency --Procced by C
G: 20:44'29.171 Latito's Sinister Strike hits Mother Shahraz for 865 --SS Hit
H: 20:44'29.171 Latito's Melee misses Mother Shahraz --OH Miss
I: 20:44'29.328 Latito's Melee misses Mother Shahraz --Sword Spec proc Miss
J: 20:44'29.421 Latito gains 1 extra attack through Windfury Attack --Procced by K
K: 20:44'29.421 Latito's Melee crits Mother Shahraz for 1305 --MH Hit
L: 20:44'29.515 Latito gains Windfury Attack --Buff generated by J
M: 20:44'29.531 Latito gains 1 extra attack through Sword Specialization --Procced by N
N: 20:44'29.531 Latito's Melee crits Mother Shahraz for 1534 --WF Proc hits
O: 20:44'30.015 Latito's Melee hits Mother Shahraz for 619 --Sword Spec proc hits
P: 20:44'30.296 Latito's Melee hits Mother Shahraz for 185 (glancing) --OH Hit
Q: 20:44'31.328 Latito's Melee hits Mother Shahraz for 646 --MH Hit


I have never seen a "You gain 1 extra attack through X" message appear *after* the attack which procs it. The gain is always reported first, then the attack which proc'd it. Generally the 2 lines appear on the same timestamp, occasionally with a small (< 100ms) delay). The actual extra attack always appears with some delay, generally 0.2 to 0.5 seconds after the gain message and attack proc combo.

Further, if you look at my *next* MH attack at Q and do some math:
27.500 + [(31.328 - 27.500) / 2] = 29.414. Since my haste did not change over the period of this example, this pretty much pegs us right line K, validating that hypothesis.

For the OH:
28.187 + [(30.296 - 28.187) / 2] = 29.242. This lands us pretty close between H and I, but closer to H. Further, the previous idea that there is always a delay between proc and attack for extra attacks.. H cannot by a proc'd attack from E/G. Or at least, its way too damn early.


And yes, aylene, rogues certainly are one of the easiest classes to play (SS, SS, SS, SS, SS, SnD, repeat.. 94% dps) and hardest to master.
#2040SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3katheavus
Hi guys, I have a question that's been haunting me for a couple weeks now.

My friend told me that the best race for a PvE rogue is human because you get 10 expertise for mace/sword because they add up, so you have 2.5% less chance to be dodged on MH and OH attacks.

Now this sounds FISHY to me in that...from what research I have done, weapon specialization doesn't apply across hands, so why should expertise?

Does anyone have any hard evidence of this being true or false? I've tried using the search function through posts to find this so I didn't have to ask, but I couldn't find anything.

Thank you.
#2041SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3bossmaann
OK so for a while i have been using Dragonstrike mainhand and Vengful sword for offhand, i was specced mace/sword

I just got my MH vengful sword so i went double swords

for some reason it seems i did more dps with my dragonstrike mh / sword oh then double swords

is it possible that the haste proc on the dragonsttrike give me more swings then mainhand sword specalization, i havent researched it much i dont know where to start all i know is that the 212 haste that dragonstrike provides per proc for 10 seconds

15.77 haste = 1% more swings
so 212/15.77 = 13.44% more swings for 10 seconds
depending on how much it procs it seems it procs allot like 2-3 ppm or if im wrong what does it proc but if it does lets say u have 13.44% more swings for 20 seconds per minute
is that better than 5% chance to get a sword proc with mainhand
also consider adding in the 5% extra crit damage with mace MH
i dont know the exavt mechanic of sword procs but isnt it only from white dmg so OH procs more sword swings than mainhands right so im getting MH fist dmg with haste and 5% more crit and a sword pro OH

i dont really know how to work this out or if someone has worked this out already but it really seems that i did more dps with dragonstrike mainhand and veng sword offhand with mace/sword spec than double veng swords 20/41 sword spec

if someone can help me out who is good at working these things out please reply
#2042SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Jakani
Originally Posted by katheavus View Post
Hi guys, I have a question that's been haunting me for a couple weeks now.

My friend told me that the best race for a PvE rogue is human because you get 10 expertise for mace/sword because they add up, so you have 2.5% less chance to be dodged on MH and OH attacks.

Now this sounds FISHY to me in that...from what research I have done, weapon specialization doesn't apply across hands, so why should expertise?

Does anyone have any hard evidence of this being true or false? I've tried using the search function through posts to find this so I didn't have to ask, but I couldn't find anything.

Thank you.
This is a display error, nothing more. The display is being updated in 2.4 to show individual expertise on each weapon.
#2043SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3katheavus
Originally Posted by Jakani View Post
This is a display error, nothing more. The display is being updated in 2.4 to show individual expertise on each weapon.
How can you be so sure though?

I guess that's what I'm asking.
I've seen people, especially warriors, say it's real, and other people, especially rogues, say it's a display error.
What makes them draw that conclusion?
#2044SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3patcherke
food that has negative impact

I was checking out (in the dps sheet) the impact that different kinds of food had on my dps.

I was looking at a normal raid setup (BoK,BoM, 5 sunders, mark of the wild, imp. hunters mark, Grace of air totem and Strength of earth totem)
I started wit this as a base (saved it at that point)

When I added Hot spicy talbuk to that setup, I came on a negative impact (-0.55 dps) which looked very weird to me.
To be honest, I cannot believe that well fed food can have any negative impact on your dps.

Might be worth a look i.m.o.
My hit rating is 281 (360 if you add the 79 from precision talent) unbuffed.
#2045SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3neg^
There's a rogue posting in one of the threads showing WWS logs of him never getting dodged over several instance clears, using a sword+mace combo to cap expertise. If they didn't add up he wouldn't cap expertise. So yes, it's bugged at the moment, but that should be fixed next patch.
#2046SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3MonikaRed
Yesterday i was wondering about hit rating cap on raid trashes in order to wear a "trash stuff" ; according to wowwiki it seems to be 3to4% depending on the mob's level
Hit - WoWWiki - Your guide to the World of Warcraft

443(hit cap on raid boss) - 63 (15.77x4)= 380

According to theses numbers I got convince that I should'nt surpasse 281 +hit on my character sheet
(+20hotspicy talbuk, +79 talent = 380)
This will allow me not to waste +hit on trashes and wear more ap/crit/ArP ->hope more dps !
#2047SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Disquette
With regards to all this windfury stuff, would it not be somewhat trivial for someone with a shaman pal to travel to the blasted lands and do this with a 0.9 or 1.2 dps weapon. That way there is absolutely no guessing whether or not the results being seen are part of the RNG or due to Windfury bonuses.

I mean, I believe that it's probably true based on the evidence shown, but when we're looking at logs that say: 604, definitely extra AP compared to 445, definitely no extra AP, but the weapon used has exactly the damage range listed, then I get a bit uncomfortable.

Granted, those servants aren't 0% armor mobs, so there is definitely *something* going on here that isn't just damage range. I suppose all I'd really need to see is a full combat log of such a parse, but the reality is that it would be so much simpler to use a low damage range vendor bought 1.2dps weapon and be able to look at a combat log and see it plain as day.
#2048SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Seleli
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
Also, haste does not increase the number of PPM procs you get; it does not increase the uptime of any Mongoose, Executioner, Dragonspine Trophy, Madness of the Betrayer, etc. procs you may have. Hit, on the other hand, does. This is a 2nd major advantage for hit.
This is confusing to me. I'm assuming PPM = Procs per minute? If that's the case, once you have procced X# of times in a given interval, neither effect should increase the number of procs you get, but until that point both should. Hit means more of your attacks actually land, giving you another chance for that proc, but haste means you get more attacks in that interval, thus giving you another chance for that proc. I understand the game doesn't work like my brain, but this seems very logical to me. If what you say is correct, could you help me understand why?

Also, how can you tell something has a PPM instead of um... whatever else it could be? Is it along the lines of Instant Poison that says "Each strike has a 20% chance of ..." vs Dragonspine Trophy that says "Your melee and ranged attacks have a chance to ..."? Thus IP doesn't have a PPM (it's based off the number of attacks you make), and DST has a PPM (can only proc X# of times in a given interval)?

And thanks for all the work on glancing hits going on, it's been very interesting reading, and can't wait to see the final word on it all. ^.^
#2049SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3patcherke
Originally Posted by patcherke View Post
I was checking out (in the dps sheet) the impact that different kinds of food had on my dps.

I was looking at a normal raid setup (BoK,BoM, 5 sunders, mark of the wild, imp. hunters mark, Grace of air totem and Strength of earth totem)
I started wit this as a base (saved it at that point)

When I added Hot spicy talbuk to that setup, I came on a negative impact (-0.55 dps) which looked very weird to me.
To be honest, I cannot believe that well fed food can have any negative impact on your dps.

Might be worth a look i.m.o.
My hit rating is 281 (360 if you add the 79 from precision talent) unbuffed.

Have done some further research on this issue.

It seems to happen in the following combination :
  • 4 piece Netherblade armor set bonus
  • Sunder armor
  • Spicy hot talbuk well fed buff

When several raid buffs are up, the drawback happens at the 3rd sunder (0, 1 or 2 sunders still grant me a positive effect of 6-7 DPS)
When no raid buffs are up (except for the sunder), the drawback is at the 5th sunder.

When several raid buffs are up, but no sunder, there is no problem.


furthermore, I thought we could take it for granted that Spicy hot talbuk was the best rogue food in game, as long as you're not near the hitcap of 363.
But it appeared that Ravager dogs (40AP) and agi food (20 agi) gave me a slight bonus compared to Hot spicy talbuk.
Is there a moment, that the extra +hit is bypassed by extra AP or Agi (AP+crit), and if so, what hit rating is that?
#2050SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
drumbum
Originally Posted by Seleli View Post
This is confusing to me. I'm assuming PPM = Procs per minute? If that's the case, once you have procced X# of times in a given interval, neither effect should increase the number of procs you get, but until that point both should. Hit means more of your attacks actually land, giving you another chance for that proc, but haste means you get more attacks in that interval, thus giving you another chance for that proc. I understand the game doesn't work like my brain, but this seems very logical to me. If what you say is correct, could you help me understand why?

Also, how can you tell something has a PPM instead of um... whatever else it could be? Is it along the lines of Instant Poison that says "Each strike has a 20% chance of ..." vs Dragonspine Trophy that says "Your melee and ranged attacks have a chance to ..."? Thus IP doesn't have a PPM (it's based off the number of attacks you make), and DST has a PPM (can only proc X# of times in a given interval)?

And thanks for all the work on glancing hits going on, it's been very interesting reading, and can't wait to see the final word on it all. ^.^
It has to do with the way the game treats proc per minute effects. Basically, the way the game currently functions, when your haste increases, the chance per attack to proc is decreased by a proportional amount to keep a constant PPM. For example:

0% haste, 1 PPM, 100 attacks per 1 minute, each attack has a 1% chance to proc
10% haste, 1 PPM, 110 attacks per 1 minute, each attack has a 0.91% chance to proc

Therefore, either way, you're still going to get 1 proc every minute. However, the game doesn't adjust proc rates based on chance to miss, and a missed attack can't proc something, so hit rating does improve observed proc rates.

As for percentage based proc chances (like poisons and windfury for example), these do benefit from haste.

Last edited by drumbum : 03/21/08 at 12:41 PM.
#2051SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Apoq
Originally Posted by bossmaann View Post
OK so for a while i have been using Dragonstrike mainhand and Vengful sword for offhand, i was specced mace/sword

I just got my MH vengful sword so i went double swords

for some reason it seems i did more dps with my dragonstrike mh / sword oh then double swords

is it possible that the haste proc on the dragonsttrike give me more swings then mainhand sword specalization, i havent researched it much i dont know where to start all i know is that the 212 haste that dragonstrike provides per proc for 10 seconds

15.77 haste = 1% more swings
so 212/15.77 = 13.44% more swings for 10 seconds
depending on how much it procs it seems it procs allot like 2-3 ppm or if im wrong what does it proc but if it does lets say u have 13.44% more swings for 20 seconds per minute
is that better than 5% chance to get a sword proc with mainhand
also consider adding in the 5% extra crit damage with mace MH
i dont know the exavt mechanic of sword procs but isnt it only from white dmg so OH procs more sword swings than mainhands right so im getting MH fist dmg with haste and 5% more crit and a sword pro OH

i dont really know how to work this out or if someone has worked this out already but it really seems that i did more dps with dragonstrike mainhand and veng sword offhand with mace/sword spec than double veng swords 20/41 sword spec

if someone can help me out who is good at working these things out please reply
Earlier in this thread I proposed the idea that mace/sword combo spec was viable above fist/sword and very close to sword/sword. Through testing, mace spec was deemed to be multiplicative instead of additive. Meaning you're actually getting 10% more critical strike damage.

At a relative crit level of 25% (most rogues have this or better raid buffed), pretty close to pure sword spec.

Simple Napkin Math: If OH specs are sword, lets look at MH only specs over 100 attacks, each attack 10 dmg, 25% crit.

Fist = 70 attacks, 30 crits = 700 + 600 damage = 1300
Sword = 80 attacks, 25 crits = 800 + 500 damage = 1300-1350 (damage range for crits/no crits on the extra attack)
Mace = 75 attacks, 25 crits = 750 + 500*1.1 damage = 1300

At 50% crit

Fist = 45 attacks, 55 crits = 450 + 1100 damage = 1550
Sword = 55 attacks, 50 crits = 550 + 1000 damage = 1550-1600 (damage range for crits/no crits on the extra attack)
Mace = 50 attacks, 50 crits = 500 + 1000*1.1 damage = 1600

As you can see mace spec scales more with higher crit levels. 50% crit raid buffed isnt hard to accomplish raid buffed with T6 gear.

As it was deemed earlier in this thread, mace v/s fist v/s sword for MH specs is so close they are dependant on MH weapon itemization. Your dragonstrike is clearly superior to the S3 sword BEFORE specs are accounted. However not by much, once you take into account free points in vile poisons, it should be roughly within (.25%) raid buffed. But spreadsheets cannot account for peroids of time when your dragonstrike procs and so does every other haste buff/ap buff/armor pen buff/etc..

I'm in the same boat with my Rod of the Sun King. On the DPS sheet it's within (0.10% - 2.01 dps) of switching to S3 MH sword + pure sword spec. At higher levels of crit, my mace would outshine it even with less poison damage.
#2052SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3DreamSpyre
I've been doing some math on mutilate and coming up with some hard numbers. What I started out looking for was the % chance to get 3 cp's from the ability.

This is what I've got so far.

I'm assuming 35% base crit, and 15% from talent in 2.4

50% + 50% = 100% (Sum of crit chance on both hands)
-
50% x 50% = 25% (Multiplicitant of crit chance on both hands)
= 75% (Chance that one of two hands will crit)

This leaves me with a 25% chance that both attacks will crit, but that's out of the 100% total, not just additive with the 75%.

75% x 25% = 18.75% (% of 25% that is during the 75% crit)

25% - 18.75% = 6.25% (% of 25% that is not during the 75% crit)

75% + 6.25% = 81.25% (% chance of getting 3 cp's from one mutilate)

I "think" this is right, but I of course am not so amazing with math and would just like to know that I had someone else go over it who knows what I'm talking about and can give me an honest answer as to whether I'm right.

Much appreciated =)
#2053SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Aldriana
Originally Posted by Seleli View Post
This is confusing to me. I'm assuming PPM = Procs per minute? If that's the case, once you have procced X# of times in a given interval, neither effect should increase the number of procs you get, but until that point both should. Hit means more of your attacks actually land, giving you another chance for that proc, but haste means you get more attacks in that interval, thus giving you another chance for that proc. I understand the game doesn't work like my brain, but this seems very logical to me. If what you say is correct, could you help me understand why?
Borrowed from an article I wrote for the forthcoming Theorycrafting Think Tank:

The second category is referred to as Proc Per Minute or "PPM" effects. These are normalized such that if you autoattack with a single weapon, the average number of procs you get in a minute does not depend on the speed of the weapon you use. So, as a simple example: Mongoose is thought to be a 1.2 PPM effect. Hence, if I autoattack with a 2.0 speed weapon, it will proc on 4% of attacks, such that over the course of a minute (during which I will make 60/2.0 = 30 attacks) it will on average proc 30 * .04 = 1.2 times. If, on the other hand, I autoattack with Mongoose on a 3.0 speed weapon, it will instead proc on 6% of attacks, such that it will still proc an average of 1.2 times per minute (60/3.0 = 20; 20 * .06 = 1.2).

It should be noted that for any proc effect implemented in the expansion, for purposes of autoattacking, any haste effects in play are counted against your weapon speed. For instance, if I have 25% haste on, I will attack 25% more times in a minute, so each proc will be correspondingly less likely to proc such that I still average the same number of procs in a minute. Note that this is *not* true of pre-expansion haste effects such as Crusader - on these older effects, the chance of a proc going off is purely a function of your base weapon speed.

Note, however, that this applies only to autoattacks. If one is additionally launching instant attacks - Sinister Strike, Mortal Strike, or whatever else - these have a chance to proc as well, and can thus increase the number of observed procs. Unlike autoattacks, haste effects do not reduce the proc rate of instant attacks; if you are using mongoose on a 3.0 speed weapon, you will have a 6% chance to proc no matter how much haste you have on.

At this point an example would probably be helpful. Consider, for instance, [Madness of the Betrayer]. This is a trinket with a 1 PPM armor penetration proc. Let us assume for the moment that I am attacking with a 2.5 speed MH and a 1.5 speed OH. Let us further assume that I have 50% haste from various sources, and that I use Sinister Strike once every 4 seconds, and have WF totem. Then my MH autoattack occurs 36 times a minute, so each MH autoattack has a 2.78% chance to proc Sinister Strike. However, those 36 attacks also proc an average of 7.2 WF procs per minute, which are considered autoattacks, so also proc at this rate. Thus, in reality I will generate (36 + 7.2) * 2.78 = 1.2 procs each minute from autoattack and Windfury. Now, my OH attacks can *also* proc Madness of the Betrayer, but since I average 60 attacks per minute with that weapon, each only has a 1.67% chance to proc. Thus, my OH generates 1 proc each minute on average as well. Finally, I make 15 instant attacks with Sinister Strike, each of which procs with a 4.17% chance (as the proc rate is note reduced by the haste effect in play). Thus, I get an additional 4.17 * 15 = .625 procs each minute from instant attacks. Thus, in the average minute, Madness of the Betrayer will proc 1.2 + 1 + .625 = 2.825 times each minute.

Originally Posted by Disquette View Post
With regards to all this windfury stuff, would it not be somewhat trivial for someone with a shaman pal to travel to the blasted lands and do this with a 0.9 or 1.2 dps weapon. That way there is absolutely no guessing whether or not the results being seen are part of the RNG or due to Windfury bonuses.
I might note that if the shaman pal simply brings a 1 dps weapon with him, the rogue doesn't really need to go at all. The simplest way to test this is just to have a shaman go out there with a low damage weapon, use WF Totem rather than WF Weapon, and stab away for a minute or two. It might be interesting to bring a rogue as well, but I can't imagine that the totem would effect different classes differently.

Originally Posted by DreamSpyre View Post
I've been doing some math on mutilate and coming up with some hard numbers. What I started out looking for was the % chance to get 3 cp's from the ability.

This is what I've got so far.

I'm assuming 35% base crit, and 15% from talent in 2.4

<snip>

= 81.25% (% chance of getting 3 cp's from one mutilate)
Easier way:

Each attack of the Mutilate has a 50% chance to crit. Thus, each has a 50% chance to *not* crit. Thus the chance that *neither* crits is .5 * .5 = .25 = 25%. Thus, the chance that at least one crits - causing 3 CPs to be generated - is 1 - .25 = 75%.

That might have been a little unclear due to the 50% crit rate; let me repeat that calculation at 45% crit for clarity:
Chance that neither crits = (1-.45) * (1-.45) = .3025
Chance that at least one crits = 1-.3025 = .6975

Thus, the chance to get 3 CPs at 45% crit is 69.75%.
#2054SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3drumbum
Originally Posted by DreamSpyre View Post
I've been doing some math on mutilate and coming up with some hard numbers. What I started out looking for was the % chance to get 3 cp's from the ability.

This is what I've got so far.

I'm assuming 35% base crit, and 15% from talent in 2.4

50% + 50% = 100% (Sum of crit chance on both hands)
-
50% x 50% = 25% (Multiplicitant of crit chance on both hands)
= 75% (Chance that one of two hands will crit)
Stop right here. This is your answer. You have a 75% chance to crit with at least one hand, which is the same condition for gaining an extra combo point.

After this calculation, you tried to treat the probability of at least one hand critting and the probability of both hands critting as independent events, but they are not. Regardless, I cannot see why you would care what the probability of the intersection of these two events is, which by the way, is simply 25% (the chance for both to crit).

In general, the chance for a Seal Fate proc with Punctured Wounds is:
2*(C+0.15)-(C+0.15)^2
or, rewritten differently:
1-(1-(C+0.15))^2
where C is your base crit chance.
#2055SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Shaker
my MH autoattack occurs 36 times a minute, so each MH autoattack has a 2.78% chance to proc Sinister Strike.
Just a quick note (hey, I'm an editor, though these aren't 'proper channels') that the 'Sinister Strike' is in error, I think you mean 'Madness of the Betrayer', or whatever the proc name is.


The other quesiton I have, and apologies if I just haven't been rigorous enough in searching, is: Have we done enough analysis to see if the special attack PPM % is based off listed speed or normalized speed? The normalized speed may explain why there'd be a 'special rule' for special attacks. This should be somewhat easy to test by using Shiv, oddly enough, since you can get a 1.4 speed weapon that is normalized at 2.4 speed, which is a large enough difference to get somewhat conclusive data from, I'm guessing.

Also, I'll get you a shaman log, since I need to take mine out to the blasted lands to skill up weapons anyway. (And yes, I won't give you tainted results with < 350 weapon skill). Should have that late tonight, most likely.
#2056SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Aldriana
Originally Posted by Shaker View Post
The other quesiton I have, and apologies if I just haven't been rigorous enough in searching, is: Have we done enough analysis to see if the special attack PPM % is based off listed speed or normalized speed? The normalized speed may explain why there'd be a 'special rule' for special attacks. This should be somewhat easy to test by using Shiv, oddly enough, since you can get a 1.4 speed weapon that is normalized at 2.4 speed, which is a large enough difference to get somewhat conclusive data from, I'm guessing.
The original haste/PPM thread had some data + analysis in it - I didn't look over the numbers myself so I can't 100% vouch for the veracity of this assertion, but the conclusion seemed to be that special attack PPM is "probably" based on unhasted weapon speed, not normalized speed or anything else. As I recall the evidence wasn't 100% conclusive, but definitely suggestive.
#2057SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Seleli
Thanks for clearing up why haste doesn't increase PPM. But why does hit?

Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
Also, haste does not increase the number of PPM procs you get; it does not increase the uptime of any Mongoose, Executioner, Dragonspine Trophy, Madness of the Betrayer, etc. procs you may have. Hit, on the other hand, does. This is a 2nd major advantage for hit.
Is it because hit doesn't actually increase the number of PPM, but instead, with each hit missed it pulls you further away from the projected PPM, because you can miss that one hit that would proc? Or can it actually raise you above the projected PPM?

Last edited by Seleli : 03/21/08 at 11:56 PM.
#2058SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Aldriana
Well, the simple answer is: "hit increases the number of hits without changing attack speed, meaning it's more attacks that can proc but doesn't lower the proc rate". To go into a bit more depth: if you're only hitting 90% of your attacks, only 90% of them are eligible to proc; thus, a 1 PPM effect, while autoattacking with a single weapon, will actually only proc .9 times per minute if you miss 10% of the time. If you increase your haste by 10%, you still get .9 PPM; but if you increase your hit by 10% - well, now all your attacks are hitting, so you get the full 1 PPM.

As an additional note: hit and expertise also have a double effect in terms of SS procs and WF procs; both hit and haste increase the number of attacks that land and thus the number of procs; but hit *also* determines whether those procs hit - another advantage for hit.
#2059SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Latito
Originally Posted by Seleli View Post
Is it because hit doesn't actually increase the number of PPM, but instead, with each hit missed it pulls you further away from the projected PPM, because you can miss that one hit that would proc?
Essentially, yes. PPM is converted into a % change to proc on each swing based on your current attack speed. However, if you miss.. that attack will NOT proc. Its a 2-roll system in that regard. First check if you hit/miss/crit/etc, then if it hit or crit, check for a proc with the % based on PPM and current weapon speed. Increasing hit increases the number of attacks which have a chance at proc'ing, increasing haste will increase the number of attacks which have a chance at proc'ing (via more total attacks) AND decrease the chance that any given attack procs, effectively canceling out the extra attacks.

Edit: I really gotta stop opening a bunch of windows and filling out the replies 10-15 min later.
#2060SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Drastik
Just so there's no misconception, I plan to moan about combat daggers.

I've always supported the axiom that you spec according to what weapons you have. Through BC, I've been pigeonholed into fist/sword for an extended period of time, which was useful until I was able to get my hands on a Talon of Azshara. I've been using this since SSC, up through Illidan, getting the shaft constantly on Blade of Infamy.

So, being the opportunist, I collected every dagger in T6 content, making sort of a trophy room for them in my bank. Last week, Shard of Azzinoth dropped and I decided it was finally time to cough up the cash for enchants and respecs after humping the spreadsheet for several days. I just didn't want to believe that even though the item level, and the boss from which the daggers came was on such a different echelon of playing, I'm still losing 2.8% DPS by making this switch.

Why, then, must dagger spec not be rewarded for the adverse difficulty in playing style as apposed to swords? In my mind (obviously biased) dagger spec should be rewarded for the positioning aspects of it (even though I'm always in the back 180 anyway in raids).

I'm mostly just irritated that I was drunk enough one night to mongoose up a couple of daggers that are trounced by T5 swords. For the record, opportunity should be combined with imp backstab so I don't have to get bent over on losing half of lethality and the DPS gain from vile poisons.

/rant
#2061SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Vulajin
So, while fiddling with my spreadsheet this evening, I found an interesting effect in EP that occurs when you get to end-Sunwell gearing. Apparently, the value of haste rating actually declines relative to attack power, to the point that [Dragonspine Trophy] loses some of its luster. Crit rating, meanwhile, becomes substantially stronger. Expertise and hit also continue to scale at ridiculous rates. The result is that DST falls behind both [Shard of Contempt] and [Ashtongue Talisman of Lethality] by end-Sunwell. The Blackened Naaru Sliver may even lose some of its luster, depending on its exact proc mechanics, since its static bonus is a large chunk of haste rating.

Right now, these facts have pretty low applicability. We already know that the Shard is basically just behind DST in terms of T6 EP value, and obviously no one has end-Sunwell gear yet. However, it may well be that the end-game trinkets of choice become Sliver+Shard, as opposed to Sliver+Trophy as has been thought.
#2062SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
aylene
On the WF-topic, I got an enhancement shaman at lvl 70 so I basically bought two Clubs with the mighty damage range of 1-3 with 1.1 dps. I went to Blasted Lands, put up windfury totem and stripped of naked, standard procedure for testing. :-)

I started to do timed and non-timed stormstrikes (non-timed meaning no windfury buff) whether to confirm instants also gained the AP-buff and it took me about 20 seconds to note that Stormstrike did indeed gain the AP-buff, but I hit some more to be assured. Note that I only timed and non-timed Stormstrike when I had Unleashed Rage up.



Here's a non-WF-buffed one (all Stormstrike hits ranged between 41-43 on mainhand hits.)

07:42:09 You hit Servant of Allistarj for 21.
07:42:10 You hit Servant of Allistarj for 43.
07:42:11 You hit Servant of Allistarj for 22.
07:42:12 Your Stormstrike hits Servant of Allistarj for 43.
07:42:12 Your Stormstrike hits Servant of Allistarj for 22.
(stopped attacking)
07:42:16 Unleashed Rage fades from you.
Here's a WF-buffed Stormstrike.

07:41:56 You gain Flurry.
07:41:56 You gain Unleashed Rage.
07:41:57 You crit Servant of Allistarj for 43.
07:41:57 You hit Servant of Allistarj for 42.
07:41:58 You hit Servant of Allistarj for 21.
07:41:59 You hit Servant of Allistarj for 43.
07:41:59 You hit Servant of Allistarj for 21.
07:42:00 You gain 1 extra attack through Windfury Attack.
07:42:00 You hit Servant of Allistarj for 42.
07:42:00 Flurry fades from you.
07:42:00 You gain Windfury Attack.
07:42:00 You crit Servant of Allistarj for 228.
07:42:01 Your Stormstrike hits Servant of Allistarj for 115
07:42:01 Your Stormstrike hits Servant of Allistarj for 58.
07:42:01 Servant of Allistarj is afflicted by Stormstrike.
07:42:01 You hit Servant of Allistarj for 21.
07:42:02 Windfury Attack fades from you.
07:42:02 You gain Flurry.
All the buffed Stormstrikes hits more than twice as hard as the non-buffed ones when naked. I had 359 AP with Unleashed Rage up and a damage range in the character sheet of 54-57 on the mainhand. With the Windfury Attack buff I had 995 ap (once again with Unleashed Rage) and a damage range of 149-152 on the mainhand.

Last edited by aylene : 03/22/08 at 3:52 AM.
#2063SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
 Aldriana
Originally Posted by Vulajin View Post
So, while fiddling with my spreadsheet this evening, I found an interesting effect in EP that occurs when you get to end-Sunwell gearing. Apparently, the value of haste rating actually declines relative to attack power, to the point that [Dragonspine Trophy] loses some of its luster. Crit rating, meanwhile, becomes substantially stronger. Expertise and hit also continue to scale at ridiculous rates. The result is that DST falls behind both [Shard of Contempt] and [Ashtongue Talisman of Lethality] by end-Sunwell. The Blackened Naaru Sliver may even lose some of its luster, depending on its exact proc mechanics, since its static bonus is a large chunk of haste rating.

Right now, these facts have pretty low applicability. We already know that the Shard is basically just behind DST in terms of T6 EP value, and obviously no one has end-Sunwell gear yet. However, it may well be that the end-game trinkets of choice become Sliver+Shard, as opposed to Sliver+Trophy as has been thought.
So, the reason for the devaluation of hit is pretty clear; Sunwell adds a lot of +passive haste gear that's best in slot, and haste increases the value of hit and AP but not the value of haste itself, causing a relative decline. That said, I still disagree with the conclusion here.

With end-Sunwell optimal gear and the buffs I typically raid with, I show the following scores for the existing trinkets:
DST: 222
AToL: 209
WSC: 207
MotB: 193

The gap is certainly narrower, but DST is still king of the heap.

Regarding the new trinkets: without knowing the proc rate on Sliver, it's hard to compare; but I think it's safe to assume it's going to be one of the better options. But lets look at Shard a bit.

First thing to note is that optimally one his 2/2 WEx and Slayer's Boots, for 16 Expertise; thus one only needs 10 to cap. Thus, one doesn't get full benefit from Shard - only 10 Expertise from it, rather than 11. If we then compute the damage gain from this, I score it at 217 EP. Now, given that each trinket changes the value of all the others, it's entirely possible that Shard will just edge DST for the 2nd spot if you have Sliver for the other. On the other hand, this assumes that:
a) You're not human (or else you expertise cap with only 5 Expertise rather than 10)
b) You have both warglaives for that haste proc. Some of us certainly do... but most of us don't.
c) You're running haste pots + drums. Certainly true of progression, but as we're assuming end-Sunwell gear you're really not progressing anymore.

If we even drop just the drums and haste pots, the gap between DST and Shard increases to 227 to 216.

So, fundamentally: I agree that there may be sets of gear and buff that cause Shard to pass DST; but I don't think it's going to be true of all - or even most - rogues. So I'm not sure I'd jump to any conclusions just yet.

That said: Shard will still be a nifty toy to level with, due to the fact that while leveling one will be attacking from the front a lot and thus subject to parries.

Last edited by Aldriana : 03/22/08 at 2:55 PM.
#2064SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Vulajin
Aha, I found the mentioned effect without using drums or haste pots, but it turns out the Warglaives are the primary culprit.

On the plus side, the difference between the Shard and DST is quite minimal. As long as you're not human, it ends up essentially being a replacement if your guild isn't exactly the type to go back and farm Gruul. If you're human...you'll probably have to use AToL or WSC.
#2065SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Bug
Great thread and all that, is it possible someone could point me to some EP ratings for a Mutilate build. I know agi is king but other than that I'm struggling to compare stuff.

Cheers in advance.
#2066SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Bloodsiren
Originally Posted by Drastik View Post
Just so there's no misconception, I plan to moan about combat daggers.

I've always supported the axiom that you spec according to what weapons you have. Through BC, I've been pigeonholed into fist/sword for an extended period of time, which was useful until I was able to get my hands on a Talon of Azshara. I've been using this since SSC, up through Illidan, getting the shaft constantly on Blade of Infamy.

So, being the opportunist, I collected every dagger in T6 content, making sort of a trophy room for them in my bank. Last week, Shard of Azzinoth dropped and I decided it was finally time to cough up the cash for enchants and respecs after humping the spreadsheet for several days. I just didn't want to believe that even though the item level, and the boss from which the daggers came was on such a different echelon of playing, I'm still losing 2.8% DPS by making this switch.

Why, then, must dagger spec not be rewarded for the adverse difficulty in playing style as apposed to swords? In my mind (obviously biased) dagger spec should be rewarded for the positioning aspects of it (even though I'm always in the back 180 anyway in raids).

I'm mostly just irritated that I was drunk enough one night to mongoose up a couple of daggers that are trounced by T5 swords. For the record, opportunity should be combined with imp backstab so I don't have to get bent over on losing half of lethality and the DPS gain from vile poisons.

/rant
I believe that a lot of rogues would agree that our primary weapon that most of our skills are dependant on having should at least be equivalant dps if not more than other weapons, and that it isn't is stupid. However, this thread is not the best place to post. I would like you to encourage posting in WoW's suggestion forum as I have hopes that if we complain enough as rogues that it might be changed. The changes they are currently making to improve the mutilate build is, what I am hoping, the beginning of fixing that change without gimping everyone who doesn't have daggers currently.

But, I don't think anyone in these forums will care to hear complaints about what changes we would like see.
#2067SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Dontmindme
So, I decided to take a look at the procs off special issue.
I used dual-S2 swords with Mongoose (4 points sword spec); 65 haste rating.
I alternated Shivs and Hemos. Basically if I got a Mongoose proc, I'd switch to the other skill, sometime switching just because so I wouldn't get as bored.
Main-hand base speed is 2.60; off-hand is 1.50
Attacks from behind but angled so as not to auto-attack against our trusted Gordok Spirits (level 60).

Test #1 was just specials.
Test #2 was specials with SnD up (popped Abacus when it came up)

The goal being to see if there was a correlation between procs and/or haste and/or weapon speed.

Test #1
323 Hemos
19 Mongoose procs (5.88%)
16 Poison Vial procs (4.95%)
15 Sword Spec procs (4.64%)

320 Shivs
14 Mongoose procs (4.38%)
11 Poison Vial procs (3.44%)
16 Sword Spec procs (5.00%)

Test #2 (w/SnD occasional Abacus)
366 Hemos
14 Mongoose procs (3.82%)
11 Poison Vial procs (3.00%)
13 Sword Spec procs (3.55%)

250 Shivs
13 Mongoose procs (5.20%)
6 Poison Vial procs (2.40%)
6 Sword Spec procs (2.40%)

There does appear to be a possible trend related to weapon speed and haste although the sample set is fairly small.

To do...try main hand in offhand and just Shiv (see if number go up or whether there is an offhand proc penalty).
I may also try some auto-attack tests...
Links...combat log and a spreadsheet with the combat log sorted to columns and specials marked.
A couple notes, my combat log does some funny things.
1) It seems to run about 115% to 120% fast.
2) It also resets the time back periodically to adjust for it's being fast.
3) Also, in Test #1 I tried not to let Mongoose refresh by switching hands. One time, when both procs were up and energy was about to cap out, I decided to attack anyway. I got 2 refreshes in a row. (They are inserted in the spreadsheet copy).
ShivHemo.txt
ShivHemo.xls
#2068SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3
Edited onPatch 2.3.3
Kumar
Here is a WWS Report from Tidewalker kill, looking for input on improving myself, char name Kumar

Wow Web Stats

Thanks

Edit: Some more information on what I generally do on boss fights.

I generally use 1s/5R rotation. This works out well enough, except sometimes when I have both Rupture and SnD expiring almost at the same time, then if I have less than 3 CP I go for SnD renew, if I have 3 or more, I renew Rupture and then SnD on the next CP.

For Cooldowns, I generally wait for the first/second Watery Grave and then use AR+BF+Abacus(Trink)+Drum. I get another BF+Trink+Drum use before AR renews itself, allowing me to use the AR+BF+Trink+Drums combo again, mainly towards the end of a boss fight.

I have been looking at using Haste Pots in combination with that, I might try it out on our next run through a 25-man instance.

In terms of gear, I have badly need a Chest upgrade. I am hoping for the chest of Nightbane, chest of Fathom Lord since he is next for our progression, or with 2.4 release the Badge chest.

Last edited by Kumar : 03/22/08 at 6:52 PM.
#2069SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Dontmindme
Here's a follow-up with S2 MH in the offhand using Shivs (only other change is Finkle's Skinner in MH - not used)

Test #1
365 Shivs
26 Mongoose procs (7.12%)
15 Poison Vial procs (4.11%)
10 Sword Spec procs (2.74%)

Test #2 (w/SnD)
447 Shivs
18 Mongoose procs (4.03%)
18 Poison Vial procs (4.03%)
23 Sword Spec procs (5.14%)

Hard to tell if there is anything here. I think the sample size is a problem. Hard to get exceedingly many special attacks in an hour.

Shiv.txt
Shiv.xls
#2070SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Goldengiff
Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
Here is a WWS Report from Tidewalker kill, looking for input on improving myself, char name Kumar

Wow Web Stats

Thanks

Edit: Some more information on what I generally do on boss fights.

I generally use 1s/5R rotation. This works out well enough, except sometimes when I have both Rupture and SnD expiring almost at the same time, then if I have less than 3 CP I go for SnD renew, if I have 3 or more, I renew Rupture and then SnD on the next CP.

For Cooldowns, I generally wait for the first/second Watery Grave and then use AR+BF+Abacus(Trink)+Drum. I get another BF+Trink+Drum use before AR renews itself, allowing me to use the AR+BF+Trink+Drums combo again, mainly towards the end of a boss fight.

I have been looking at using Haste Pots in combination with that, I might try it out on our next run through a 25-man instance.

In terms of gear, I have badly need a Chest upgrade. I am hoping for the chest of Nightbane, chest of Fathom Lord since he is next for our progression, or with 2.4 release the Badge chest.
First of allyour rotation should probably be 2/5 rather than 1/5, since you're letting SnD fall off too much (24 SnD gains for the whole boss fight). Also, you have deadly and instant poison on your weapons. Do you not have a shaman in your group for WF?

Other than that your enchants/gems/spec are all good. Just need to get better gear and get a WF totem
#2071SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Disquette
Originally Posted by aylene View Post
On the WF-topic, I got an enhancement shaman at lvl 70 so I basically bought two Clubs with the mighty damage range of 1-3 with 1.1 dps. I went to Blasted Lands, put up windfury totem and stripped of naked, standard procedure for testing. :-)

...

All the buffed Stormstrikes hits more than twice as hard as the non-buffed ones when naked. I had 359 AP with Unleashed Rage up and a damage range in the character sheet of 54-57 on the mainhand. With the Windfury Attack buff I had 995 ap (once again with Unleashed Rage) and a damage range of 149-152 on the mainhand.
Excellent info, and definitely enough for me to agree with the WF-as-a-temporary-buff hypothesis. Thank you very much.
#2072SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3katheavus
So I'm interested in calculating the value of envenom because I plan on PvEing in 2.4 as mutilate.

I know the DPS of Deadly Poison is 87.

But I'm hazy on some things.

1) How would you go about calculating the uptime of your deadly poison stack?

2) How would you go about calculating the damage lost by clearing your deadly poison and restacking it? This is the part that confuses me the most. Every time I really think about it my mind just kinda...wanders off and leaves me hanging. =P

Any in depth replies would be much appreciated.
#2073SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Afftiel
Apologies if this has been covered; I just read a fair chunk of the 80+ pages of this thread, but may well have missed any discussion pertinent to my question.

Originally Posted by Vulajin View Post
On offhand theory: for rogues with Combat Potency, a fast offhand is extremely important to increase the frequency of Combat Potency procs. For these builds, you can compare offhands by equating each 0.1 increment of speed to roughly 10 extra weapon DPS in favor of the faster weapon. For example, [Latro's Shifting Sword] is effectively 91.8 DPS when compared against [Fireguard]. Note that the stats on a weapon are still very important; for example, [Tracker's Blade] is superior to [Searing Sunblade] due to its stat allocation.

For non-Combat Potency rogues, offhand weapon speed is less important, but can still impact DPS via poison procs and sword spec procs. For any rogue with sword spec, each 0.1 increment of speed can be equated to roughly 5 extra weapon DPS in favor of the faster weapon. For rogues without sword spec, you can convert each 0.1 increment to 2 extra weapon DPS for the faster weapon.
When number-crunching to compare offhands, do these (hypothetical) incremental increases stack? i.e., if a rogue with Combat Potency gains roughly 10DPS per 0.1 speed increase, and a rogue with sword spec gains roughly 5DPS per 0.1 speed increase, would a rogue with Combat Potency AND sword spec gain roughly 15DPS per 0.1 speed increase, or some other amount?

Also, the logic behind these numbers appears to assume a comparison between like weapon types (i.e. dagger vs dagger). How would one go about calculating the better weapon to use if, for example, you have sword spec but an OH dagger is available with the same stats and (near enough) dps but a faster attack speed ([Vengeful Gladiator's Shiv] vs [Vengeful Gladiator's Quickblade], for example). At what point (if at all) would the increase in attack speed outweigh the loss of additional sword spec procs?

TIA for any advice on this. First-time poster, go easy on me... :oS
#2074SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Aldriana
Originally Posted by katheavus View Post
1) How would you go about calculating the uptime of your deadly poison stack?

2) How would you go about calculating the damage lost by clearing your deadly poison and restacking it?
Well, for part 1, I'd take a look at this thread - in particular, the first page and a half or so, which has the current best known modeling of deadly poison.

For the second part: this is a harder question that hasn't been analyzed in any great detail yet. The traditional approach is to assume that your steady-state poison is a static 5 stacks, and the damage lost to Mutilate is the amount of time it takes you to get back up to 5 stacks. This will certainly be on the right order of magnitude, but it *will* overestimate the poison loss, since DP *isn't* a static 5 stacks on average.
#2075SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3katheavus
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
Well, for part 1, I'd take a look at this thread - in particular, the first page and a half or so, which has the current best known modeling of deadly poison.

For the second part: this is a harder question that hasn't been analyzed in any great detail yet. The traditional approach is to assume that your steady-state poison is a static 5 stacks, and the damage lost to Mutilate is the amount of time it takes you to get back up to 5 stacks. This will certainly be on the right order of magnitude, but it *will* overestimate the poison loss, since DP *isn't* a static 5 stacks on average.
Thank you Aldriana.

Well, for part 1, I'd take a look at this thread - in particular, the first page and a half or so, which has the current best known modeling of deadly poison.
I had *no* idea it was such a complicated issue. O_O. I'm going to take some time to mull over that. Do you mind if I PM you with some questions about that later? I confess that my mathematics education is pretty minimal.


For the second part: this is a harder question that hasn't been analyzed in any great detail yet. The traditional approach is to assume that your steady-state poison is a static 5 stacks, and the damage lost to Mutilate is the amount of time it takes you to get back up to 5 stacks. This will certainly be on the right order of magnitude, but it *will* overestimate the poison loss, since DP *isn't* a static 5 stacks on average
By "damage lost to mutilate" I assume you crossed wires and meant envenom... in which case this makes 100% sense =P.
Since the assumption is usually that having a full 5 stack is a constant (even though this is incorrect, and I guess a more accurate analysis of this would refer us back to the link you posted ...the one that boggles my mind) can we work from there even though it is inaccurate, for the sake of simplicity? Like...How would we determine:
1) How long does it take to stack back to 5 after clearing a stack?
2) In that period how much damage is done by partial stacks?

Thank you so much!
#2076SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Vulajin
Originally Posted by Afftiel View Post
When number-crunching to compare offhands, do these (hypothetical) incremental increases stack? i.e., if a rogue with Combat Potency gains roughly 10DPS per 0.1 speed increase, and a rogue with sword spec gains roughly 5DPS per 0.1 speed increase, would a rogue with Combat Potency AND sword spec gain roughly 15DPS per 0.1 speed increase, or some other amount?
They do not combine. If you have Combat Potency, it's 10. If you don't have Combat Potency, but do have sword spec, it's 5. Otherwise, it's 2.

Also, the logic behind these numbers appears to assume a comparison between like weapon types (i.e. dagger vs dagger). How would one go about calculating the better weapon to use if, for example, you have sword spec but an OH dagger is available with the same stats and (near enough) dps but a faster attack speed ([Vengeful Gladiator's Shiv] vs [Vengeful Gladiator's Quickblade], for example). At what point (if at all) would the increase in attack speed outweigh the loss of additional sword spec procs?
This would be a question better answered via a spreadsheet.
#2077SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Afftiel
Thanks Vulajin - I had a feeling the Combat Potency / Sword Spec numbers were based on a "best case scenario" principle, but hoped there might be an equally simple rule-of-thumb to use when comparing fast swords vs fast(er) daggers. I'll use the spreadsheets to investigate on a case-by-case basis; many thanks for the swift response!
#2078SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3Professor Hurt
Originally Posted by Afftiel View Post
Thanks Vulajin - I had a feeling the Combat Potency / Sword Spec numbers were based on a "best case scenario" principle, but hoped there might be an equally simple rule-of-thumb to use when comparing fast swords vs fast(er) daggers. I'll use the spreadsheets to investigate on a case-by-case basis; many thanks for the swift response!
As a general rule, NEVER use any OH but a sword if you're sword spec. This has been mentioned countless times throughout most rogue threads here, and the reason is that your OH sword spec procs result in an extra *MH* attack. No OH sword = no OH sword spec procs. Doing a rough comparison, event Latro's sword compared to Vengeful shiv results in a raid buffed DPS loss of over 20 for a t5/t6 rogue. I can't fathom a real life scenario where a sword spec rogue would opt for an OH dagger considering how easy it is to obtain even a blue OH sword that results in better raid DPS.
#2079SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Aldriana
Originally Posted by katheavus View Post
By "damage lost to mutilate" I assume you crossed wires and meant envenom... in which case this makes 100% sense =P.
Err.. yes. Envenom.

Since the assumption is usually that having a full 5 stack is a constant (even though this is incorrect, and I guess a more accurate analysis of this would refer us back to the link you posted ...the one that boggles my mind) can we work from there even though it is inaccurate, for the sake of simplicity? Like...How would we determine:
1) How long does it take to stack back to 5 after clearing a stack?
2) In that period how much damage is done by partial stacks?
So, the simple answer:

Let n = the number of attacks that can proc poison that you hit with in the average second.
Let p = the probability that poison will proc on a given hit.

Then, the probability that poison procs in a given second is thus np. Hence, the average time between procs is 1/np. Thus, you spend 1/np time at 0 stacks, the same at 1 stack, 2 stacks, etc. until you get back up to 5 stacks; thus, you lose 5/np stack-seconds of poison until the first stack applies, 4/np until the second, and so on, for a total of 15/np stack-seconds of poison. Each stack does VP*15 damage a second (where VP is the multiplier from vile poisons), so the total damage lost if 225*VP/np damage.

In terms of a real-world example: If you have Vile Poisons only on your offhand, and your OH hits about once every second, we have n = 1. With no ranks in Improved Poisons, your chance to apply is 30%, reduced by the 17% resist rate, for a total poison application chance of .3 * .83 = .249 = 24.9% per second. Thus np = .249, so overall damage lost to the stack being removed, assuming you have no ranks in vile poison, is 225/.249 = 904 damage.

Now, again, this is an overestimate, but the point remains that one loses an appreciable amount of poison damage by using Envenom.
#2080SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3katheavus
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
Err.. yes. Envenom.



So, the simple answer:

Let n = the number of attacks that can proc poison that you hit with in the average second.
Let p = the probability that poison will proc on a given hit.

Then, the probability that poison procs in a given second is thus np. Hence, the average time between procs is 1/np. Thus, you spend 1/np time at 0 stacks, the same at 1 stack, 2 stacks, etc. until you get back up to 5 stacks; thus, you lose 5/np stack-seconds of poison until the first stack applies, 4/np until the second, and so on, for a total of 15/np stack-seconds of poison. Each stack does VP*15 damage a second (where VP is the multiplier from vile poisons), so the total damage lost if 225*VP/np damage.

In terms of a real-world example: If you have Vile Poisons only on your offhand, and your OH hits about once every second, we have n = 1. With no ranks in Improved Poisons, your chance to apply is 30%, reduced by the 17% resist rate, for a total poison application chance of .3 * .83 = .249 = 24.9% per second. Thus np = .249, so overall damage lost to the stack being removed, assuming you have no ranks in vile poison, is 225/.249 = 904 damage.

Now, again, this is an overestimate, but the point remains that one loses an appreciable amount of poison damage by using Envenom.
Thank you very much for explaining this to me!
It's all clear now. Well, at least, much less muddy.

May I ask what your background in math is? Playing this game is making me regret that I didn't educate myself more fully in mathematics and I'm thinking about going back to school. One of the things I'd like to spend time studying is math if I do.
#2081SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3saedo
Has anyone tested [Righteous Weapon Coating] yet? I only assume it won't stack with the WF and poisons, but sounds like it could be better than poisons depending on proc rate.
#2082SourcePosted on Patch 2.3.3 Aldriana
As far as I know, there has been no formal testing of it, but some quick estimates about it were made in the Gear Sheet thread; the short answer is that it's rather unlikely to eclipse WF or DP in power, so it's only of potential interest if you've been running IP/DP... and possibly not even then. On the whole, it's not that interesting to rogues.
#2083SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0sp00n
Lately I've been thinking about the optimal (first) application of Adrenaline Rush during a fight.

Common knowledge is that AR enables you to squeeze in a 5pt Eviscerate in-between your normal cycle, but I was wondering if using AR for some sort of "jump start" wouldn't be better.
Jump start here means that, instead of beginning your fight with the standard 1pt SnD, 3pt/4pt SnD and then your normal cycle, you do 1pt SnD and then immediately AR (or build up another cp first if you'd loose energy by enabling AR right away). With the energy provided by AR (and possible other procs) you build up 5pt to apply rupture, and you should be able (at least at a T5-T6 level) to proceed with your normal cycle right after that, possibly even having spare energy to fire Blade Flurry.

So I wonder, would this procedure generate more damage than the usual 'wait until your cycle is running and then throw in an Eviscerate' usage for AR?
You are saving one 1 SnD period where you build up cp just to only fire another SnD and jump right into your normal cycle. On the other hand you are missing the damage of one Eviscerate.
I assume the difference wouldn't be that big, but I'd simply like to know and maybe somebody has already done the math and wants to share his knowledge.


Of course this requires a decent tank and BoS. Don't try this if your tank is slacking or you are in a ZA group with only Might buffed - you will fail terribly.

PS and totally OT:
Maniq's current user title skerez me
#2084SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Lastembrace
I was under the impression that it was generally a better idea to wait at least until all necessary mob debuffs were in place before popping AR (sunder etc). Our MT typically takes 5-15 seconds to get all 5 sunders up depending on the boss, but I guess getting a rupture off sooner might counter balance this some what. Either way though, even if you had an amazing tank using AR 2 seconds into a fight followed by a lucky string of crits or wf/ss procs could lead to an untimely demise - especially on pulls without misdirection.

It would be interesting to see some more theory behind this though, as its not something the spreadsheets can really simulate, given that they only model sustained dps and as far as I know disregard the "warm-up" time at the beginning of each fight before you get your full cycle rolling.
#2085SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0mmartinx
This may be viable for someone not using an on-use AP trinket (and Blood Fury if you're an orc), otherwise you really want to time those cooldowns with AR. I usually base my AR timing around if I'm going to be able to use it once or twice. If its a fight that takes 5-6 minutes I try to use it with my first set of cooldowns and use an early vanish, if it's a short fight I'll use it during my second set of 2 min cooldowns along with bloodlust. Early tank threat is usually an issue for us since a lot of times we have no hunter or 1 hunter in the raid.
#2086SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Left
The Puncturing Wounds change is not listed in the patch notes which were pulled down from the 2.4 updater:
2.4 Patch Notes and Undocumented Changes

Can anyone confirm whether or not this talent change was omitted from the patch?
#2087SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Kumar
Originally Posted by sp00n View Post
Lately I've been thinking about the optimal (first) application of Adrenaline Rush during a fight.

Common knowledge is that AR enables you to squeeze in a 5pt Eviscerate in-between your normal cycle, but I was wondering if using AR for some sort of "jump start" wouldn't be better.
Jump start here means that, instead of beginning your fight with the standard 1pt SnD, 3pt/4pt SnD and then your normal cycle, you do 1pt SnD and then immediately AR (or build up another cp first if you'd loose energy by enabling AR right away). With the energy provided by AR (and possible other procs) you build up 5pt to apply rupture, and you should be able (at least at a T5-T6 level) to proceed with your normal cycle right after that, possibly even having spare energy to fire Blade Flurry.

So I wonder, would this procedure generate more damage than the usual 'wait until your cycle is running and then throw in an Eviscerate' usage for AR?
You are saving one 1 SnD period where you build up cp just to only fire another SnD and jump right into your normal cycle. On the other hand you are missing the damage of one Eviscerate.
I assume the difference wouldn't be that big, but I'd simply like to know and maybe somebody has already done the math and wants to share his knowledge.


Of course this requires a decent tank and BoS. Don't try this if your tank is slacking or you are in a ZA group with only Might buffed - you will fail terribly.

PS and totally OT:
Maniq's current user title skerez me
The way I have always used AR is in combination with BF+Trainket+Drums (I am LW). I beleive using them alltogether is beneficial as the combined increase of Haste, AP provide much more benefit than using them one at a time.

The problem I find with using the AR combo right of the start is that even with a great tank, if I end up proccing dual Mongoose + Windfury + Sword Spec, my threat generation would go right up there and grabbing aggro from the tank wouldn't be far off.

I usually time my Combo after 1-2 normal cycles have been used up, sometimes depending on the boss fight after the boss uses a certain ability (example, Tidewalker I use it after a Watery Grave has been done). I usually get in another BF+Trinket+Drums combo while AR is on cooldown and then for longer boss fights another AR+BF+Trinket+Drums combo.
#2088SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0
Edited onPatch 2.4.0
Budah
Noob question

I don't mean to be rude to such advanced players but I was wondering if they could give me the low down on the best way to order my talent/skills as I go up in levels. I am going the combat route at the moment.

Last edited by Budah : 03/25/08 at 2:42 PM.
#2089SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Latito
I tend to agree with the others here, using AR right off the bat generally isn't a great idea. If you have some fight which is known to be ~5:20 in length and you are needing to really push dps.. I can see a case for it, maybe. Generally there is just to great of a chance to get some (un)lucky procs which, when combined with more SS's, leads to a dead rogue right off the bat. This is especially true when you have a tank getting a Shield Slam or Mangle parried right off the bat. From a dps-gain perspective, remember that the first ~10-15 seconds of the fight you are doing up to ~25% less damage due to a lack of debuffs / buffs. Synergize your AR with any +AP/Crit/ArmPen/Agi type procs and you should come out ahead.

Regarding the opening cycle.. I generally tend to SS, SS, SnD and then launch into a 5pt SnD from there. Going with a 1-pt SnD to start really doesn't gain you a whole lot considering you will always start with enough energy to get that entire opening sequence off therefor you "save" a mere 1 second of SnD time, with likely only a single offhand swing landing between your 2nd SS and the SnD. From a 2pt SnD its generally not a problem getting to a 5pt SnD after that.

The one time I have been favoring using AR at the start of a fight is when you are assigned to imp EA on a fight with a non-prot-warrior MT. This is largely just to get EA up as fast as possible so the raid can benefit sooner. Often this cycle looks like: 2 SS, SnD, AR, 5 SS, EA, 5 SS, SnD, repeat. Generally EA is up within 10-12 seconds of the fight starting.

Originally Posted by sp00n View Post
PS and totally OT:
Maniq's current user title skerez me
Try logging out. Its <Current user> + " is awesome". I actually PM'd him about it before I realized that, wondering what was going on. Fun trick.
#2090SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Latito
Originally Posted by Budah View Post
I don't mean to be rude to such advanced players but I was wondering if they could give me the low down on the best way to order my talent/skills as I go up in levels. I am going the combat route at the moment.
While I'm not a mod here and I'm not aware of any specific rule about it, I don't think large-font spam is the best way to make friends around here and it (I think) goes against the general spirit of the forums. Just a heads up for future posts.

In regards to your question, this thread is more about the lvl-70 raid scene, specifically how to spec and gear to output maximum dps for your raid. Leveling (and PvP) are generally not covered here. That said, in general combat is seen to be the best leveling tree. I would pick up 11 points in assasination to help kill mobs more continuously with better combo point generation. If you want to spec down to Fleet Footed, run speed is always a significant boost (especially pre-40). Combat will give you a lot of damage though and some nice CD's to get through the elites. Make sure you are using a non-dagger MH. Other than that, with the minimal amount of hit that you have while leveling.. Sword / Fist / Mace are all relatively close. It often comes down to "Use the best slow, non-dagger weapon you can find in MH, best fast-ish weapon in OH".
#2091SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0sp00n
Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
The way I have always used AR is in combination with BF+Trainket+Drums (I am LW). I beleive using them alltogether is beneficial as the combined increase of Haste, AP provide much more benefit than using them one at a time.

The problem I find with using the AR combo right of the start is that even with a great tank, if I end up proccing dual Mongoose + Windfury + Sword Spec, my threat generation would go right up there and grabbing aggro from the tank wouldn't be far off.

I usually time my Combo after 1-2 normal cycles have been used up, sometimes depending on the boss fight after the boss uses a certain ability (example, Tidewalker I use it after a Watery Grave has been done). I usually get in another BF+Trinket+Drums combo while AR is on cooldown and then for longer boss fights another AR+BF+Trinket+Drums combo.
AR has no benefit whatsoever from Blade Flurry (unless you're hitting 2 targets of course), Drums (of Battle) and any other trinket which increases haste (like [Abacus of Violent Odds]). Trinkets that increase AP do however affect AR's damage output, but on a T5/T6 level, I doubt there are many rogues wearing trinkets such alike (unless you are especially unlucky as I have been, exchanging Romolus trinket not until Madness of the Betrayer :x).

And as I have mentioned, you really need a decent tank to perform such a start, or else you will be stomped into ground (and Tidewalker being one of those special cases where you would not want to do this, because of his slowing debuff on the tank).

I'm currently trying to figure out the differences between both version, but I have no way to model it, so I'm doing it by hand. I'll let you know if I get any useful results...
#2092SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Bloodsiren
I have sometimes jump started a fight with AR when I have BF and drums available. My trinkets currently are the Romulo's poison vial and dragonspine trophy so I don't have a CD with them to time. When the boss fight is going to be more than 5minutes, I can go in and garrotte and start up SnD, backstab and then start the AR,BF and drums. This absolutely does put me right under the tank's aggro and I then vanish to drop all threat and go into my regular rotation.

I don't use this on most fights though, just ones that I know will be longer than 5min so I can get another use of AR in before the fight ends and when we are up against enrage timers or something similar and need to max out the dps. I am combat daggers specc'd currently with 4 pieces t4, so the situation for higher level gear or combat swords might be different. The 5 backstabs I'm doing consecutively generate a lot more threat, and they crit often. I definitely have to vanish at the end of the cycle, but that let's me get in another garrote and refresh SnD after a 5CP rupture before DP or SnD has dropped.

I have been reading through these forums for several weeks now and I respect the advice of most of the posters, so if I have the wrong idea here with this type of opening, I would like to know so I can correct it.
#2093SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Ricard
On the issue of timing your AR with BF/Drums/Haste pots, I often find that this is actually harmful. AR increases your energy regen, and when I have it going with all my haste effects, I often see Combat Potency proc far too often to use all the energy, and I end up capping. So I generally use my AR in my 3rd or 4th cycle, after my haste pots and BF buffs have fallen off.
#2094SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Auracc
I'm sorry guys, I know this is mildly off topic, and I'm sure its been discussed in depth already, but I've gone through a lot of pages, and just cant seem to find it :/ just a quick response would be lovely.

I'm using Heartless MH and S2 Sword OH right now, and have enough badges for both the new Heroic badge Fist weapons, was wondering if Fist weapon/S2 Swrord OH or both Fist weapons is gonna net me the most dps, or should I stick with Fist weapon in MH and Sword in OH and get the belt instead of the Fist OH.

Thanks, if you need any other info feel free to email me, bhester19@nc.rr.com
#2095SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0F4nt0m
Originally Posted by Professor Hurt View Post
As a general rule, NEVER use any OH but a sword if you're sword spec. This has been mentioned countless times throughout most rogue threads here, and the reason is that your OH sword spec procs result in an extra *MH* attack. No OH sword = no OH sword spec procs. Doing a rough comparison, event Latro's sword compared to Vengeful shiv results in a raid buffed DPS loss of over 20 for a t5/t6 rogue. I can't fathom a real life scenario where a sword spec rogue would opt for an OH dagger considering how easy it is to obtain even a blue OH sword that results in better raid DPS.
Ah, ic. I didn't know OH sword procs gave MH attacks. I was wondering though, is the rogue's sword spec like warriors in that it resets the swing timer when it procs? (And if so, do OH procs reset the OH timer while still giving MH swings?)

Also, is this why some people spec 2 weapon skills (fists and swords) at the same time? Is MHing a fist and OHing a sword (and having both weapon specs) more DPS than speccing sword only and getting that extra poison damage?
#2096SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0 JohnLocke
Originally Posted by F4nt0m View Post
Ah, ic. I didn't know OH sword procs gave MH attacks. I was wondering though, is the rogue's sword spec like warriors in that it resets the swing timer when it procs? (And if so, do OH procs reset the OH timer while still giving MH swings?)

Also, is this why some people spec 2 weapon skills (fists and swords) at the same time? Is MHing a fist and OHing a sword (and having both weapon specs) more DPS than speccing sword only and getting that extra poison damage?
There are patch notes, spreadsheets, and dozens (if not hundreds) of posts, including the first post of this thread, to answer these questions.
#2097SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0F4nt0m
Originally Posted by JohnLocke View Post
There are patch notes, spreadsheets, and dozens (if not hundreds) of posts, including the first post of this thread, to answer these questions.
Already read the first post, I saw plenty about the 2 specs, but there was no "use 1 wep specialization over 2" or vis versa, hence the reason I'm asking.
#2098SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0 JohnLocke
Originally Posted by F4nt0m View Post
Already read the first post, I saw plenty about the 2 specs, but there was no "use 1 wep specialization over 2" or vis versa, hence the reason I'm asking.
Read more carefully, it's there. Also, use a spreadsheet if you still can't find it.
#2099SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0saedo
Originally Posted by F4nt0m View Post
Already read the first post, I saw plenty about the 2 specs, but there was no "use 1 wep specialization over 2" or vis versa, hence the reason I'm asking.
You basically spec around the best weapons you can currently obtain.
#2100SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0 Vulajin
It occurs to me that I never found time to write the 2.4 update to this post. I will spend the remainder of maintenance time doing that. If anyone has any suggestions for things that are blatantly obvious that need updating, please post them so that I don't overlook anything.
#2101SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Kumar
Originally Posted by sp00n View Post
AR has no benefit whatsoever from Blade Flurry (unless you're hitting 2 targets of course), Drums (of Battle) and any other trinket which increases haste (like [Abacus of Violent Odds]). Trinkets that increase AP do however affect AR's damage output, but on a T5/T6 level, I doubt there are many rogues wearing trinkets such alike (unless you are especially unlucky as I have been, exchanging Romolus trinket not until Madness of the Betrayer :x).

And as I have mentioned, you really need a decent tank to perform such a start, or else you will be stomped into ground (and Tidewalker being one of those special cases where you would not want to do this, because of his slowing debuff on the tank).

I'm currently trying to figure out the differences between both version, but I have no way to model it, so I'm doing it by hand. I'll let you know if I get any useful results...
Interesting, I may need to relook at the use of my CDs again then.

You may also want to consider things like, whether all the good debuffs that benefit meele will be on the boss if you are starting of with AR. I also still beleive you would need an exceptionally good tank to maintain aggro control for such a rotation.
#2102SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0F4nt0m
Originally Posted by JohnLocke View Post
Read more carefully, it's there. Also, use a spreadsheet if you still can't find it.
Hmm, I see this (sorry I forgot about this particular section as I hadn't read the first post in a few weeks):
in general, the maximum possible DPS can be achieved using swords. The current top personal DPS specs are combat swords and combat fist+sword. [...] Given the scarcity of weapons at most gear levels, it safe to "let your weapons choose your spec" -- that is, decide your spec based on whatever drops for you.
So basically sword and fist+sword are the same dps? (Given no major differences in the weapons themselves)

Oh and about my other question, I just found this in a different thread.

Rogues

* Sword Specialization: The change to Sword Specialization making its extra attacks appear in yellow has been reverted. Extra attacks will appear in white and act like any auto-attack. They will no longer reset the swing time of your weapon.
I didn't know this (seeing as I just started playing my rogue about a month ago), and obviously didn't read the rogue part of the 2.1 patch notes very closely. I see the advantage of swords a lot more now (I thought it reset the swing timer before).
#2103SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0drumbum
Originally Posted by F4nt0m View Post
So basically sword and fist+sword are the same dps? (Given no major differences in the weapons themselves)
They are very close. But I wouldn't say they are "the same". If you want a better answer than that, you should use one of the spreadsheets available on this forum and play around with specs and weapons for your own gear level.

I didn't know this (seeing as I just started playing my rogue about a month ago), and obviously didn't read the rogue part of the 2.1 patch notes very closely. I see the advantage of swords a lot more now (I thought it reset the swing timer before).
Sword specialization (for both rogues and warriors) has not reset the swing timer since 2.1, although even before then sword specialization was still the best weapon specialization.
#2104SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Schwarzwald
I've been looking for discussions concerning the Shard of Contempt and its usefulness for a midway ssc/tk geared rogue.

I know there is no magical value for hit and the likes of that, but most of the discussions that I have read about the SoC are comparing people in T6 and in Sunwell loot where they have haste modifying ep values of other stats.

Will the SoC put out more DPS than the WSC? I was having a discussion with other rogues in my guild and there were conflicting views. An estimate of my current gear would be 1840 ap, 275 hit, 23% crit, 4% haste and 2/2 Weapon Ex. Would this drastically change the effectiveness of the SoC as compared in other estimations? I currently have DST and I know I won't be replacing that, but will I be replacing my Warp-Spring Coil with a Shard of Contempt?

I've been trying to use spreadsheets but recently I have been recieving code errors when every I attempt to run a macro, so forgive me if my question could be answered by plugging into a spreadsheet.
#2105SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0F4nt0m
Originally Posted by drumbum View Post
They are very close. But I wouldn't say they are "the same". If you want a better answer than that, you should use one of the spreadsheets available on this forum and play around with specs and weapons for your own gear level.



Sword specialization (for both rogues and warriors) has not reset the swing timer since 2.1, although even before then sword specialization was still the best weapon specialization.
I'm not particularly concerned about my own gear level, lets assume full T6 (and T6 ilvl non-set pieces) then (minus warglaives). Which one is better?




Yea, I know that now (that's why I quoted the 2.1 patch notes).
#2106SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0 JohnLocke
Originally Posted by F4nt0m View Post
I'm not particularly concerned about my own gear level, lets assume full T6 (and T6 ilvl non-set pieces) then (minus warglaives). Which one is better?
Put that gear in a spreadsheet. :-P I prefer the gear spreadsheet, others the DPS spreadsheet. Both are accurate enough and will give approximately the same answer. Neither thread ever falls off the second page, and they rarely fall off the first.
#2107SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0drumbum
Originally Posted by F4nt0m View Post
I'm not particularly concerned about my own gear level, lets assume full T6 (and T6 ilvl non-set pieces) then (minus warglaives). Which one is better?
Basically, it's too close to tell definitively which one is better. You can test this yourself with a spreadsheet. The difference is so small that it's virtually always better to pick your spec based on the best MH weapon available to you, not the other way around. There simply aren't many good fist weapons in the game though, so that's why fist/sword is not as popular. [Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality] will be the best MH fist weapon in game for rogues, which in my tests shows a very slight edge (2-3 DPS) over [Vengeful Gladiator's Right Ripper].
#2108SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Alk
Going back on when to use AR..

On fight that last less than 5 min I've found that the optimal way of using AR is on your second series of CD right after a mongoose/exec/trinket proc, like this:


0 sec. Fight starts
15 sec. [Blade Flurry + Blood Fury + Drums]
135 sec. [Blade Flurry + Drums]
- Wait for Mongoose to proc
Mongoose procs. [AR + Blood fury]

That way your AR will yield higher damage since the extra SS's will be affected by Mongoose/exec/trinket and by BF.
#2109SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Dontmindme
Originally Posted by Schwarzwald View Post
I've been looking for discussions concerning the Shard of Contempt and its usefulness for a midway ssc/tk geared rogue.

I know there is no magical value for hit and the likes of that, but most of the discussions that I have read about the SoC are comparing people in T6 and in Sunwell loot where they have haste modifying ep values of other stats.

Will the SoC put out more DPS than the WSC? I was having a discussion with other rogues in my guild and there were conflicting views. An estimate of my current gear would be 1840 ap, 275 hit, 23% crit, 4% haste and 2/2 Weapon Ex. Would this drastically change the effectiveness of the SoC as compared in other estimations? I currently have DST and I know I won't be replacing that, but will I be replacing my Warp-Spring Coil with a Shard of Contempt?

I've been trying to use spreadsheets but recently I have been recieving code errors when every I attempt to run a macro, so forgive me if my question could be answered by plugging into a spreadsheet.
You may have to download the library (available where you download the DPS spreadsheet). Either that or enable Macros in your version of Excel because the permissions are too high. If that doesn't help, send a PM through the boards with exactly what error you are getting, what version of Excel you are using, which version of the spreadsheet, etc.
#2110SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0glowacks
Originally Posted by Alk View Post
Going back on when to use AR..

On fight that last less than 5 min I've found that the optimal way of using AR is on your second series of CD right after a mongoose/exec/trinket proc, like this:


0 sec. Fight starts
15 sec. [Blade Flurry + Blood Fury + Drums]
135 sec. [Blade Flurry + Drums]
- Wait for Mongoose to proc
Mongoose procs. [AR + Blood fury]

That way your AR will yield higher damage since the extra SS's will be affected by Mongoose/exec/trinket and by BF.
As an Orc, you want Blood Fury to be up with the rest of your cooldowns as AP benefits all attacks. Trolls, with Berserking, want to use their cooldown preferentially while other _haste_ affects are up, while Blood Elves want the extra energy under the same conditions they want to use AR. For the latter, they will want to wait to use AR until they can get a full energization (spell check says this isn't a word and suggests generalization, odd), which is 1.5 min into a fight against a mana user iirc.

But why use AR later rather than sooner? You always want to have your cooldowns overlap procs that increase your damage. Once you're sure you won't pull aggro, wait for a proc if they come decently often (Mongoose), and unload everything you have. On some fights you may wish to not unload a long AR timer for aggro reasons at the beginning, but AR really adds so little damage in comparison to what you're autoattacking for with all the available haste effects. If you wipe right after you've used AR, you probably will still have it back up in time for when you'll be comfortable unloading unless you can recover insanely fast. By not blowing AR right away, you risk dying and not getting to use it at all. Off the top of my head there are 2 fights that have unavoidable deaths in t6 content and even though you get a bit of a warning you won't be able to optimize AR unless you can use your AP buffs basically immediately (you might have a bit more leeway on Gorefiend). If you can finagle a Soul Stone or Battle Rez I suppose you can still optimize it later; I admit I'm not in the best position to estimate the probability of receiving either.

So again, why wait until after the 2min cooldowns come up again?
#2111SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Coconuter
Originally Posted by Alk View Post
Going back on when to use AR..

On fight that last less than 5 min I've found that the optimal way of using AR is on your second series of CD right after a mongoose/exec/trinket proc, like this:


0 sec. Fight starts
15 sec. [Blade Flurry + Blood Fury + Drums]
135 sec. [Blade Flurry + Drums]
- Wait for Mongoose to proc
Mongoose procs. [AR + Blood fury]

That way your AR will yield higher damage since the extra SS's will be affected by Mongoose/exec/trinket and by BF.
Originally Posted by glowacks View Post

But why use AR later rather than sooner? You always want to have your cooldowns overlap procs that increase your damage. Once you're sure you won't pull aggro, wait for a proc if they come decently often (Mongoose), and unload everything you have. On some fights you may wish to not unload a long AR timer for aggro reasons at the beginning, but AR really adds so little damage in comparison to what you're autoattacking for with all the available haste effects. If you wipe right after you've used AR, you probably will still have it back up in time for when you'll be comfortable unloading unless you can recover insanely fast. By not blowing AR right away, you risk dying and not getting to use it at all. Off the top of my head there are 2 fights that have unavoidable deaths in t6 content and even though you get a bit of a warning you won't be able to optimize AR unless you can use your AP buffs basically immediately (you might have a bit more leeway on Gorefiend). If you can finagle a Soul Stone or Battle Rez I suppose you can still optimize it later; I admit I'm not in the best position to estimate the probability of receiving either.

So again, why wait until after the 2min cooldowns come up again?

My thought on why waiting on the 2min cooldowns to come up again would be on a boss fight that isn't long enough for a second use of AR even if you use it at first, or to help not pull aggro off the tank. Otherwise I'm not sure why you would wait.
#2112SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0patcherke
Done again some extra testing on the T4 - sunder issue.

I have to admit that the drawback does not occur due to the sunders, but that the 4-piece T4 Set bonus is doing something with your buffed dps, that it isn't suppose to be doing.

To prove my point I've done the following thing : took my current gear, which in fact does have 4 pieces of the Netherblade. I fiddled around a bit here and there, and found out that the drawback happens as soon as you get that 4th piece.
So I assumed it had something to do with that bonus.

so I took my original setup with the 4 pieces, and saved the dps, so I could compare it later on.
I changed the 'set bonus' requirement from 4 to 5 pieces (changed the formula at place X28 in the excelsheet 'RogueDPDS_2_4_0_3.xls')

Result : dps increase on the buffed side (6.4 DPS) and DPS decrease on unbuffed (-1.4)
This was what I was expecting (because It was what I wanted to prove), but it is not something that is supposed to happen. => removing a Set bonus should never have a positive impact.

I guess it has something do do with a substraction iso an addition, but I hereby hope that I pointed out the problem enough to have a look at it.
(BTW great job on the spreadsheet, it is awesome)
#2113SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Drek-SiN
So last night we went into MGT and did it on both heroic and normal mode. Lucky for me shard of contempt dropped. No reason to complain right? Well here is my problem.

I replace my Ashtounge Talisman with it but now I am way over the cap (2/2 Weapon Expertise, non-Human: 64) because of the vashj belt and talents; 44(from shard) + 27 (vashj belt) + 10 (talents). I was thinking about removing the expertise talent from the combat tree and placing them in places where I will actually benefit. My understandings thus far from what I have read around here is that being over the expertise cap gives you absolutely nothing to gain at all so essentially I guess my question is; wtf do should I do!

Keep my old setup? Use coil/shard?

I haven't had the time to plug it all into the spreadsheet yet, ive been very busy with work/school but I will look at it tonight and get back to you guys with what the spreadsheet says for me.
#2114SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Myrx
Thing with removing the talent is that there is 0 places to put those 2 points that will contribute to your DPS.
#2115SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0 Apps
Originally Posted by Drek-SiN View Post
So last night we went into MGT and did it on both heroic and normal mode. Lucky for me shard of contempt dropped. No reason to complain right? Well here is my problem.

I replace my Ashtounge Talisman with it but now I am way over the cap (2/2 Weapon Expertise, non-Human: 64) because of the vashj belt and talents; 44(from shard) + 27 (vashj belt) + 10 (talents). I was thinking about removing the expertise talent from the combat tree and placing them in places where I will actually benefit. My understandings thus far from what I have read around here is that being over the expertise cap gives you absolutely nothing to gain at all so essentially I guess my question is; wtf do should I do!

Keep my old setup? Use coil/shard?

I haven't had the time to plug it all into the spreadsheet yet, ive been very busy with work/school but I will look at it tonight and get back to you guys with what the spreadsheet says for me.
Remember that that cap you've quoted is including the talents already; you're double-quoting them. You're 7 expertise rating over cap; use a spreadsheet to determine what the best set of gear is to go with, but certainly do not drop the talent.
#2116SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Feist-Mok
Originally Posted by Apps View Post
Remember that that cap you've quoted is including the talents already; you're double-quoting them. You're 7 expertise rating over cap; use a spreadsheet to determine what the best set of gear is to go with, but certainly do not drop the talent.
If your other gear options in those slots are sufficiently bad, and you run 19/42 rather than 20/41, you MIGHT be able to make a case for dropping one point in the talent for an extra point in lethality/poisontalents.

You'd want to check the spreadsheet, and plug in your non-expertise gear options with your current spec to make sure thats optimal though.
#2117SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Evolve
Does anyone have thought about how competitive mutilate now is with the 15% extra crit from Puncturing Wounds ?
#2118SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Ghoststryk
Do you guys have any thoughts on the new fist set in 2.4 from hyjal trash, i got the offhand last night for a faction first, so i have quite a few options for weapons, the dps spreadsheet does not have these new fists in it yet. I now have choices of Talon of Azshara, Merciless Gladiator offhand, Talon of the Phoenix, and Fist of Molten Fury.
#2119SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Professor Hurt
Putting a fist in your OH will always result in a small DPS decrease as it forces you to go combat-fists (on the order of just a few percentage dps, so nothing huge). The MH, however, is very sexy, and with the stats + 2.7 speed I'm guessing it may be an upgrade to go fist+sword.

However, I like the look so much, if I get them I think I'll go combat fists just to look badass.
#2120SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Feist-Mok
I posted some brief testing on the procrate of the new hyjal fists over in the gear sheet thread. From cursory spreadsheet play the proc on the set would need to be worth about 50 dps (which it doesn't seem to be) for the set to be an up from ToA/S2 OH for me.
#2121SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Suspenders
I'm sorry for not using a spreadsheet, but I'm currently broed out of my mind in class.
I'm a t4/Kara geared rogue, and I was wondering if I should replace my un-enchanted Merc OH for the one from kael in Heroic MAT?
#2122SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Feist-Mok
1) this forum has little respect, on the whole, for "I'm too lazy to look it up myself" posts.

2) If you can't be bothered to enchant your offhand, why do you care? Clearly you aren't min maxing anyway.

3) S2 offhand sword is better than the one in heroic MT. Enchant what you have and leave the quickening blade to somebody else.
#2123SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Astoncroix
Shiv question

I am sure this would be nearly impossible to model, but what are people's thoughts on using Shiv to "save" a DP stack that is about to expire? Good move or waste of energy?
#2124SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Dontmindme
Originally Posted by Ghoststryk View Post
Do you guys have any thoughts on the new fist set in 2.4 from hyjal trash, i got the offhand last night for a faction first, so i have quite a few options for weapons, the dps spreadsheet does not have these new fists in it yet. I now have choices of Talon of Azshara, Merciless Gladiator offhand, Talon of the Phoenix, and Fist of Molten Fury.
If you look at the bottom of the Gear _ Buffs sheet, there is an area where you can temporarily add some items. They will appear as the last entry of the appropriate lists. Just enter the relevant stats (probably add some AP, to estimate the proc) and it should give you an idea. Then you can select them from the dropdowns.

I added this section so I don't have to rush out and post a new spreadsheet immediately after newly discovered items are found.
#2125SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Latito
Originally Posted by Astoncroix View Post
I am sure this would be nearly impossible to model, but what are people's thoughts on using Shiv to "save" a DP stack that is about to expire? Good move or waste of energy?
This was discussed a while ago. End result is.. too hard to accurately do (despite what you might think), and even if you could always shiv with 0.01 seconds left on a DP stack.. it wouldn't be worth it. If you want more than my say-so, use the search feature imo.
#2126SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Dontmindme
Originally Posted by Astoncroix View Post
I am sure this would be nearly impossible to model, but what are people's thoughts on using Shiv to "save" a DP stack that is about to expire? Good move or waste of energy?
I'm pretty much in the waste of energy camp. I don't believe that the extra damage from DP procs is going to make up for the lost damage from dropping down to a Shiv. I don't think it's going to be a huge loss but very unlikely to be a gain.

The only times where I think a poison-stack saving Shiv "might" be useful:
1) For whatever reason you absolutely want to keep your poison up on a mob (like Wound or Mind-numbing).
2) Possibly for Mutilate (if you are using a fast offhand) it might be helpful not to lose the stack since you get added damage from having the mob poisoned. Of course that means no one else has poison up on the mob. Reason for a fast offhand is a slow one would cost too much energy to be worth it.
#2127SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Tosa
I shiv on Naj when the bubble is up. No damage, but I still get a combo-point.
#2128SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Feist-Mok
Originally Posted by Tosa View Post
I shiv on Naj when the bubble is up. No damage, but I still get a combo-point.
I'm uncertain as to whether this works through the BoP on illidari council in a similar way, but if it does, and you use PvP gloves for interruption it could be handy.


Similarly I shiv on Leo to make sure deadly poison is 5 stacked before a whirl. It's a utility move and as such it's dps will always be a loser, but having a full stack ticking during an interruption as oppsed to a partial stack is, in my experience, a not inconsiderable gain.
#2129SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0drumbum
Originally Posted by Dontmindme View Post
2) Possibly for Mutilate (if you are using a fast offhand) it might be helpful not to lose the stack since you get added damage from having the mob poisoned. Of course that means no one else has poison up on the mob. Reason for a fast offhand is a slow one would cost too much energy to be worth it.
I don't even think it's worthwhile with Mutilate for several reasons:
  • Shiv will be normalized at 1.7 with a dagger.
  • If your poison stack falls off, someone else probably has one up. Even if they don't, or there aren't other rogues/hunters attacking the same mob, you could just sit on your energy for a few seconds waiting for a proc instead of Shivving.
  • If your energy is about to cap and your mob is unpoisoned, it's better DPE to Mutilate unpoisoned than it is to Shiv.
  • Shiv awards fewer combo points.
#2130SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Arindelest
Originally Posted by Dontmindme View Post
I'm pretty much in the waste of energy camp. I don't believe that the extra damage from DP procs is going to make up for the lost damage from dropping down to a Shiv. I don't think it's going to be a huge loss but very unlikely to be a gain.
I believe Aldriana did some math on this a while ago, and the result turned out to be an incredibly slight net gain, but clearly not worth the extra effort.
#2131SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0 Aldriana
I know such math has been done, but it wasn't by me - I want to say Vulajin or Latito, but I'm really not sure. I'm sure a little searching through the thread would turn it up, though.

I will say that one place where Shiv is useful is when one is responsible for keeping EA up; I've been responsible for that the last few nights, and you do get into situations where unlucky procs put you in danger of dropping either SnD or EA; since both of these are bad, it can be worthwhile to toss a few Shivs in to spike your CP generation if you see you're in danger of this.
#2132SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0 Vulajin
I did make a post about it, accessible here:

http://elitistjerks.com/517333-post111.html

Long and short of it is that Shivving to save your DP stack barely increases your DPS at the T5 gear level, and it's likely to become inferior in T6 and beyond as your Sinister Strike outscales your Shiv by more while DP damage stays roughly static.
#2133SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0drumbum
Originally Posted by Vulajin View Post
I did make a post about it, accessible here:

http://elitistjerks.com/517333-post111.html

Long and short of it is that Shivving to save your DP stack barely increases your DPS at the T5 gear level, and it's likely to become inferior in T6 and beyond as your Sinister Strike outscales your Shiv by more while DP damage stays roughly static.
Do you happen to have the actual stats you were basing this old post off? To me it seems a little suspect, because based on your post, your Sinister Strike to Shiv damage ratio was about 2.78; but by my calculations, that's not possible unless your AP was around 400.

For example, at 2000 AP, your SS-to-Shiv ratio should be 2.015, considerably different than you reported. This could definitely be enough to invalidate your result.
#2134SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Auturgist
I hope they "fix" this (that is, I hope this isn't a case of something working as intended), but currently the Shard of Contempt can proc off Sap. It sucks knowing the buff is on internal cooldown and half the duration was wasted before the pull.
#2135SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Sneakiest
As it stands it also procs off blind, ranged attacks, anything that counts as a succesful ability on your target (their perception of "on hit" I guess). I laughed when I was in MGT, sapped something and it went off, I was afraid it'd break stealth. Thankfully it doesn't, regardless it's not a huge issue.
#2136SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0 Vulajin
Originally Posted by drumbum View Post
Do you happen to have the actual stats you were basing this old post off? To me it seems a little suspect, because based on your post, your Sinister Strike to Shiv damage ratio was about 2.78; but by my calculations, that's not possible unless your AP was around 400.

For example, at 2000 AP, your SS-to-Shiv ratio should be 2.015, considerably different than you reported. This could definitely be enough to invalidate your result.
Based on my current gear, with the following stats after raid buffs: 3461 AP, 334 hit rating, 34.91% crit, 12 expertise... (all calculations provided by my personal spreadsheet)

My Sinister Strike with [Talon of Azshara] should hit for 1260.09, on average. My Shiv with [Merciless Gladiator's Quickblade] should hit for 655.74, on average.

My DP will fail to proc in 12 seconds 3.03% of the time; in other words, I should have to Shiv roughly once every 396 seconds. Shivving once every 400 seconds is a loss of about 604.35 damage, or about 1.53 DPS.

Increasing my DP uptime to 100% will result in a gain of about 7.33 DPS. Thus, the net gain is about 5.80 DPS.

The interesting thing to note is that because my chance to land an attack (and therefore proc DP) has increased since that time, the frequency with which I'd need to Shiv has decreased. Thus, guaranteeing 100% uptime, while a minor DPS gain, eclipses the small DPS loss of having to Shiv.

Now, whether to do this in an actual raid or not is up to you. It would seem to me that your cycle would also benefit slightly from an occasional Shiv, which would give you a cheaper CP while simultaneously saving the DP stack. You'd be able to maintain as least as good energy efficiency on your SnD while increasing your Rupture uptime, on those rare cycle iterations where you did Shiv. Still, I don't know if the slight DPS gain is worth the effort required.
#2137SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0royaljester
Anyone gotten the exalted Shattered Sun Offensive neck yet? Wondering how often it procs....
#2138SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Sylvertongue
I'd love to see some theorycraft of Mutilate with the addition of Puncturing wounds. I'm planning on trying it out in the next few days in the next week or two. I recently moved to a t5/t6 guild from a t4/t5 guild, so I'm going to stick with combat daggers for a week or two so I can make a good comparison on the same bosses and submit decent WWS.

Noted that the OP was looking for a new mutilate build for 2.4, I'm going to try this.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Obviously, some talents are optional. I love having both Fleet Footed and Quick Recovery, it's one of the things I miss most in combat. However, I'm not sure exactly how much pure DPS I'm losing by switching points out of Vile to QR and FF and deciding not to take Ruthlessness. If anyone else feels like playing around with this, please do and post the results as you'll probably get the data before me (and it's faster and more accurate to see how it works at different gear levels.)

I'm particularly interested in Mut v. Combat on high mobility fights. I suspect that it will outperform daggers as 3s/5s/5r takes a very, very long time to get going whereas 2+s/4+r, rotate as needed, is far faster especially with the (relatively minor, but useful) boost from Vigor. Swords, however, are a different beast entirely as 1s/5r or 2s/5r is doable in nearly the same time, depending on CP procs.

Anyway, speculation. I unfortunately do not have a pair of swords to test out as well (because the RNG hates me on Spite) but we'll see how it works out with Daggers v. Mut.

If anyone already has some post 2.4 WWS parses lying around, please post 'em.

The World of Warcraft Armory Armory for reference, may have PVP gear.
#2139SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0drumbum
Originally Posted by Vulajin View Post
Based on my current gear, with the following stats after raid buffs: 3461 AP, 334 hit rating, 34.91% crit, 12 expertise... (all calculations provided by my personal spreadsheet)

My Sinister Strike with [Talon of Azshara] should hit for 1260.09, on average. My Shiv with [Merciless Gladiator's Quickblade] should hit for 655.74, on average.
You still seem to be undervaluing Shiv damage. What armor reduction are you assuming?

Here's what I come up with, assuming 23% physical damage reduction through armor (based on a guess of what you're using):

SS average damage = (260.5+3461/14*2.4+98)*(1+0.1+0.06)*(1+1.378*0.3491)*0.77 = 1259.13857
Shiv average damage = (146.5+3461/14*2.4)*0.75*(1+0.1)*(1+1.378*0.3491)*0.77 = 696.0492681

It probably doesn't make too huge of a difference (about 40 damage different from your estimate), but I'm just wondering why our numbers don't match.
#2140SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0drumbum
Originally Posted by Sylvertongue View Post
I'd love to see some theorycraft of Mutilate with the addition of Puncturing wounds.
If you haven't already seen the Mutilate thread on these forums ([Rogue] Mutilate Raid DPS Discussion), you should probably take a look. There still isn't much set in stone yet, especially after the recent buff, but it's probably a better place to discuss Mutilate theorycraft in particular to help keep it centralized.
#2141SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0 Vulajin
Originally Posted by drumbum View Post
You still seem to be undervaluing Shiv damage. What armor reduction are you assuming?

Here's what I come up with, assuming 23% physical damage reduction through armor (based on a guess of what you're using):

SS average damage = (260.5+3461/14*2.4+98)*(1+0.1+0.06)*(1+1.378*0.3491)*0.77 = 1259.13857
Shiv average damage = (146.5+3461/14*2.4)*0.75*(1+0.1)*(1+1.378*0.3491)*0.77 = 696.0492681

It probably doesn't make too huge of a difference (about 40 damage different from your estimate), but I'm just wondering why our numbers don't match.
Thanks, you actually led me to find three bugs in my sheet. One was that Aggression was only yielding 2% SS damage, the second was that SA wasn't applying to Shiv at all, and the third was that Shiv wasn't getting the "no-dodge" effect that hasn't actually been patched out. However, I also made an error in the way I calculated the chance for DP to fall off. In actuality, here are the correct figures:

Sinister Strike should deal 1305.10 damage. Shiv should deal 747.97 damage. This is a loss of 557.13 damage.

There is a 5.70% chance for DP not to proc in a given 12-second span. This means that we must Shiv, on average, once every 211 seconds. Thus we are losing 2.65 DPS to Shiv our DP stack back on.

Our DP DPS, assuming that much chance to fall off, is about 70.67. We'd gain an additional 13.33 by Shivving to save the stack.

So we are actually netting about 10.6 DPS by Shivving to save our DP stacks.
#2142SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Cyn
However, you don't shiv at 12 seconds, and will have to make the choice to shiv before it falls off at least a second before that. With a proc in the last second an unknown you can't really wait for.
#2143SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Omicica
In the other enchants section you mentioned cat's swiftness and dexterity for boot enchants but I was wondering what you thought of surefooted for your boots.
#2144SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0 Aldriana
It's not mentioned because it's basically never optimal. On stationary fights, 12 agi is almost always better; on movement fights Cat's Swiftness is almost always better. From a PvE perspective, the only fight where the snare break is at all relevant is Vashj, and once you eliminate that, you just have a 10 hit enchant, which is worse than 12 agi for almost all rogues.
#2145SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Omicica
Thanks for the help. I'm used to the WoW rogue forums where people just say "lolspreadsheetnoob" which I'm working on getting but I have a mac so I'm trying to get excel on my computer without paying over $100. Speaking of help can anyone direct me on how to change my username or am I stuck with it? Just realized I put Omicica instead of Omicida. Thanks
#2146SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0
Edited onPatch 2.4.0
drumbum
Originally Posted by Vulajin View Post
Sinister Strike should deal 1305.10 damage. Shiv should deal 747.97 damage. This is a loss of 557.13 damage.
Your numbers still elude me. It appears you are penalizing Sinister Strike damage due to its ability to be dodged; however it makes more sense to me to penalize the energy cost, not the damage. After all, we want to compare the damage and energy required to obtain one combo point, not the damage and energy of a single attempted attack. Forgive me if I am misunderstanding your model still, but we still aren't matching up.

Anyway, for another perspective, I took a little bit of a different approach -- I asked two questions:

1) How much damage is lost between the moment the deadly poison stack falls off and the time when it reaches 5 stacks again, compared to the damage that would occur in the same time with a constant 5-stack? (In other words, how much poison damage would be saved by using Shiv.)
2) How much damage would it take to bring Shiv up to equal DPE with Sinister Strike?

Shiv becomes beneficial when these values are equal. Based on my calculations, with your gear, you would need to recover about 394 poison damage per successful Shiv in order to make Shiv worthwhile. The question is, would you expect to lose that much? A full poison stack does 261 damage per 3 seconds, so to me it sounds reasonable that Shiv is a good idea. But modeling a deadly poison stack is something that is a little beyond my scope.

Last edited by drumbum : 03/28/08 at 6:10 AM.
#2147SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0sp00n
Originally Posted by Omicica View Post
Thanks for the help. I'm used to the WoW rogue forums where people just say "lolspreadsheetnoob" which I'm working on getting but I have a mac so I'm trying to get excel on my computer without paying over $100.
You could download OpenOffice. Some functionality will not work with it (at least for the DPS Spreadsheet), but you will be able to use the basic functions.
#2148SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0 Aldriana
Originally Posted by sp00n View Post
You could download OpenOffice. Some functionality will not work with it (at least for the DPS Spreadsheet), but you will be able to use the basic functions.
The Gear sheet, however, is totally compatible with OpenOffice - more or less by necessity, as I don't have Excel at home either.
#2149SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Mist
Could anyone tell me what the currently accepted number for rogue expertise is? 23 expertise or 26? This thread says 26 but the 'accepted theories of theorycraft' thread says 23.
#2150SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0 Hattori Hanzo
Originally Posted by saedo View Post
Has anyone tested [Righteous Weapon Coating] yet? I only assume it won't stack with the WF and poisons, but sounds like it could be better than poisons depending on proc rate.
I "tested" it very informally during PTR. I dual-wielded it for 2 hours, grinding the flying demons down the hill from the badge vendor, mainly to see if the proc would stack.

It seemed to proc at about the same rate as Mongoose.

It never stacked.
#2151SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0drumbum
Originally Posted by Mist View Post
Could anyone tell me what the currently accepted number for rogue expertise is? 23 expertise or 26? This thread says 26 but the 'accepted theories of theorycraft' thread says 23.
The "accepted theories" thread is a little outdated. The current accepted value is 6.5% dodge (26 expertise, or 103 expertise rating).
#2152SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0tenaki
A couple of errors in the OP due to 2.4 changes. Not too sure if the changes just haven't been made yet or something. But here we go:

Note that the PvP and jewelcrafting gems listed below are also unique-equip, meaning you may only wear one in any given set of gear.
Heroic gems are no longer unique-equipped.

On Shiv: Shiv cannot be dodged or parried, and like other offhand attacks, it can proc Combat Potency.
Turns out this was a bug, and is now fixed (or going to be fixed). Shiv can then be dodged and parried.
Hortus talks about a shiv fix


Hope it helps!
#2153SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Jakani
Originally Posted by tenaki View Post
Turns out this was a bug, and is now fixed (or going to be fixed). Shiv can then be dodged and parried.
Hortus talks about a shiv fix


Hope it helps!
The shiv 'fix' was reverted.
#2154SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0 Vulajin
Originally Posted by tenaki View Post
Heroic gems are no longer unique-equipped.
There's no error there. The paragraph says that the PvP and JC gems listed are unique-equip. It does not say that the heroic gems are unique-equip.
#2155SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Goldengiff
Shattered Sun Pendant of Might

Currently sitting at 10K/21K with Shattered Sun Offensive. I should be able to finish grinding out the rest of the rep this weekend, and then I'll do some proc testing for the Scryer version of the neck. It's likely the Aldor proc rate will be the same but one never knows.

Does the classic ProcWatch still work or did 2.4 break it along with all other combat log mods?
#2156SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0sp00n
Originally Posted by Jakani View Post
The shiv 'fix' was reverted.
Was it reverted, or is it just not done yet? Any source?
#2157SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0drumbum
Originally Posted by sp00n View Post
Was it reverted, or is it just not done yet? Any source?
The Shiv nerf was implemented for most of the duration of the PTR, but was removed in one of the last few builds. I haven't seen a blue post that specifically said they decided to undo it, though, so it's possible they just wanted to delay the change to give it more consideration first.
#2158SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Feist-Mok
Originally Posted by drumbum View Post
The Shiv nerf was implemented for most of the duration of the PTR, but was removed in one of the last few builds. I haven't seen a blue post that specifically said they decided to undo it, though, so it's possible they just wanted to delay the change to give it more consideration first.
I can confirm that, at least in pvp, the shiv nerf doesn't seem to be on live. Did some testing with some rogue friends, rotating around using evasion and shiv spamming them.
#2159SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Valzodar
Hmmm

I am having an issue with keeping poisons up on the target even if I am constantly DPSing it. I would see 5 stacks of Deadlies and then Poof, they are gone and were never refreshed, I even went couple points into Improved Poisons and still that happens. Could it be that my hit causes this? I have 261 hit rating, so I miss about 9% I was wondering if anyone knows what I should do to keep my poisons up. Should I think of sneaking in a Shiv if I see poisons running out?


Edit: Never Mind, I looked back some and found the answer a page back. Should of have looked better.
#2160SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Liddathorn
Help on scaling stats.

Hello, here's my armory link, The World of Warcraft Armory , we are currently still working on SSC, I was wondering if it is possible that at this stage maybe I've focused too much on HR, it's 309.... Is there a general way of scaling agil in with HR after a certain point. currently I'm second highest dps in the guild, highest being a Lock with SSC/Hyjal gear, on tank and spank bosses i get around 1000-1500dps Gruul is around 850dps.
Any suggestions would be REALLY helpful, I've used all the info in this forum religiously, but maybe there is something i've missed. you can reply here or donoelliott@gmail.com is my email thanks a lot
#2161SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0Kalarin
Plz help me to understand AP vs. HR

Hello there. I am attempting to understand the value of hit rating vs attack power. With my rogue, in my current gear I have 217 hit rating, with 1860 ap. Our guild is currently progressing through ZA, but we are looking towards running SSC/TK in the future, and we are also running Gruul's. I am having players tell me that for more of the endgame bosses, I want to really increase my hit rating. I can get it up to 295, but I lose over 100 ap and about 1% crit to do it. Frankly, the loss of ap, and accordingly dps does not seem to outweigh the gain in Hit Rating. Currently, I maybe miss 1 out of every 50 attacks. With combats swords, and my fast attack speeds, this seems to be very insignificant. So plz help me to understand the value of jacking up my hit rating at the expense of attack power. If this has been previously discussed, plz link the thread. Thank you.
#2162SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0saedo
Originally Posted by Kalarin View Post
Hello there. I am attempting to understand the value of hit rating vs attack power. With my rogue, in my current gear I have 217 hit rating, with 1860 ap. Our guild is currently progressing through ZA, but we are looking towards running SSC/TK in the future, and we are also running Gruul's. I am having players tell me that for more of the endgame bosses, I want to really increase my hit rating. I can get it up to 295, but I lose over 100 ap and about 1% crit to do it. Frankly, the loss of ap, and accordingly dps does not seem to outweigh the gain in Hit Rating. Currently, I maybe miss 1 out of every 50 attacks. With combats swords, and my fast attack speeds, this seems to be very insignificant. So plz help me to understand the value of jacking up my hit rating at the expense of attack power. If this has been previously discussed, plz link the thread. Thank you.
1) Download one of the rogue spreadsheet
2) Open the spreadsheet
3) Insert your gear/gems/enchants/buffs/talents into the spreadsheet
4) Make a note of your dps figures
5) Change your gear around to gain that 295 hit rating
6) Compare values
7) Wear the best combination of gear you can get
#2163SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0 Vulajin
Originally Posted by Liddathorn View Post
Hello, here's my armory link, The World of Warcraft Armory , we are currently still working on SSC, I was wondering if it is possible that at this stage maybe I've focused too much on HR, it's 309....
The EP weights in the first post are provided for a reason. If, for any slot, you have chosen a piece that has less EP than an available alternative, you have erred. Otherwise, you are fine, regardless of whatever numbers you have in any particular stat.

Originally Posted by Kalarin View Post
Hello there. I am attempting to understand the value of hit rating vs attack power.
I'm pretty sure the EP weights given in the first post tell you exactly how to compare hit rating to attack power.
#2164SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0elixer
Hello i have an issue about Expertise,
I am a human combat Rog so from "2/2 Weapon Expertise, Human: 44" it should be cap when i use Shard of Contempt
But yesterday in Councils fight I found my melee atk got 0.5% parried & SS got 1% parried in a 5min wiped fight
(I went in front of the boss a few seconds when running away from AOE)
Does that mean bosses have more parry/dodge chance than 6.5% ? or only Parry (Didnt see got dodged in recount)
#2165SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0 Vulajin
Just a quick note for Council, if you're going to run in front of the boss to get out of AoE, then turn off auto attack while doing so.

The expertise cap refers only to dodge. You may still get parried, but only if the mob turns toward you while casting something, or you run in front of it for some reason and continue attacking (don't do this).
#2166SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.0weka
Just curious if anyone know about the proc rates concerning the fists of molten fury set. And as another question: Is the added damage enough to make it out dps the badge fists? Thanks.
#2167SourcePosted on <=2.0.0 Ashersky
Originally Posted by weka View Post
Just curious if anyone know about the proc rates concerning the fists of molten fury set. And as another question: Is the added damage enough to make it out dps the badge fists? Thanks.
This is discussed here: Rogue Gear Spreadsheet

Start with that post and keep reading down. But the basic answer is no, and no.
#2168SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Izmak
I've been looking fairly closely at the quality of leather available from the Sunwell, specifically at the two leather chests:

Bladed Chaos Tunic
[Bladed Chaos Tunic]

Carapace of Sun and Shadow
[Carapace of Sun and Shadow]

Both of the above items are within reach, and I was pondering over which to go for.

The only instance in which I could see the Bladed Chaos Tunic being better, is if you have already reached the Hitcap. However, when you reach that point, would it not (generally speaking) be more beneficial to re-gem other +hit gems into +agility, and retain this item's 'built in' +30 hit?

Edited for clarification
#2169SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Cyn
There are two independently developed spreadsheets, linked in this same forum, with 100+ page threads, that will answer this question for you
#2170SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Noxe
Itemization:

* items are linked in an order that shows their dps values; "1." means that specific item is at the moment the best ingame item for a rogue

HEAD:
1.Duplicitous Guise [Duplicitous Guise]
2.Cursed Vision of Sargeras [Cursed Vision of Sargeras]
3.Quad Deathblow X44 Goggles [Quad Deathblow X44 Goggles]
4.Slayer's Helm [Slayer's Helm]

NECK:
1.Hard Khorium Chocker [Hard Khorium Choker]
2.Clutch of Demise [Clutch of Demise]
3.Choker of Endless Nightmares [Choker of Endless Nightmares]

SHOULDERS:
1!.Slayer's Shoulderpads [Slayer's Shoulderpads] (t6 SET BONUS!)
2!.Shoulderpads of Vehemence [Shoulderpads of Vehemence] (the best shoulders as a single item)
3.Swiftstrike Shoulders [Swiftstrike Shoulders]
4.Shoulderpads of the Stranger [Shoulderpads of the Stranger]

BACK:
1.Shadowmoon Destroyer's Drape [Shadowmoon Destroyer's Drape]
2.Cloak of Fiends [Cloak of Fiends]
3.Thalassian Wildercloak [Thalassian Wildercloak]
4.Drape of the Dark Reavers [Drape of the Dark Reavers]

CHEST:
1.Carapace of Sun and Shadow [Carapace of Sun and Shadow]
2.Bladed Chaos Tunic [Bladed Chaos Tunic]
3.Slayer's Chestguard [Slayer's Chestguard]
4.Midnight Chestguard [Midnight Chestguard]

WRIST:
1.Slayer's Bracers [Slayer's Bracers]
2.Insidious Bands [Insidious Bands]
3.Deadly CUffs [Deadly Cuffs]
4.Swiftstrike Bracers [Swiftstrike Bracers]

HANDS:
1.Gloves of the Immortal Dusk [Gloves of Immortal Dusk]
2.Shadowed Gauntlets of Paroxysm [Shadowed Gauntlets of Paroxysm]
3.Slayer's Handguards [Slayer's Handguards]
4.Grips of Damnation [Grips of Damnation]

WAIST:
1.Slayer's Belt [Slayer's Belt]
2.Belt of One-Hundred Deaths [Belt of One-Hundred Deaths]
3.Belt of the Silent Path [Belt of the Silent Path]
4.Don Alejandro's Money Belt [Don Alejandro's Money Belt]

LEGS:
1.Leggings of the Immortal Night [Leggings of the Immortal Night]
2.Trousers of the Scryers' Retainer [Trousers of the Scryers' Retainer]
3.Slayer's Legguards [Slayer's Legguards]
4.Shady Dealer's Pantaloons [Shady Dealer's Pantaloons]

FEET:
1.Slayer's Boots [Slayer's Boots]
2.Shadowmaster's Boots [Shadowmaster's Boots]
3.Nyn'jah's Tabi Boots [Nyn'jah's Tabi Boots]
4.Edgewalker Longboots [Edgewalker Longboots]

FINGER:
1.Hard Khorium Band [Hard Khorium Band]
2.Stormrage Signet Ring [Stormrage Signet Ring]
3.Band of Ruinous Delight [Band of Ruinous Delight]
4.Angelista's Revenge [Angelista's Revenge]
5.Signet of Primal Wrath [Signet of Primal Wrath]

Trinket:
1.Dragonspine Trophy [Dragonspine Trophy]
2.Shard of Contempt [Shard of Contempt]
3.Ashtongue Talisman of Lethality [Ashtongue Talisman of Lethality]
4.Warp-Spring Coil [Warp-Spring Coil]
5.Madness of the Betrayer [Madness of the Betrayer]

Range:
1.Golden Bow of Quel'Thalas [Golden Bow of Quel'Thalas]
2.Blade of Life's Inevitability [Blade of Life's Inevitability]
3.Arcanite Steam-Pistol [Arcanite Steam-Pistol]
4.Barrel-Blade Longrifle [Barrel-Blade Longrifle]

Main Hand:
1.Warglaive of Azzinoth [Warglaive of Azzinoth]
2.Muramasa
3.Vengeful Gladiator's Slicer [Vengeful Gladiator's Slicer]
4!.Vengeful Gladiator's Right Ripper [Vengeful Gladiator's Right Ripper] (fist/sword spec)
5!.Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality [Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality] (fist/sword spec)
6.Blade of Infamy [Blade of Infamy]

Off Hand:
1.Warglaive of Azzinoth [Warglaive of Azzinoth]
2.Blade of Savagery [Blade of Savagery]
3.Dragonscale-Encrusted Longblade [Dragonscale-Encrusted Longblade]
4.Vengeful Gladiator's Quickblade [Vengeful Gladiator's Quickblade]

========================================

HIT RATING : 341 (the best single items)
EXPERTISE : 16 (the best single items)

HIT RATING : 331(351 with +hit food) (4/8 tier 6)
EXPERTISE : 16 (4/8 tier 6)

IMPORTANT : Having Moonkin in raid with improved Faerie Fire reduces hit rating cap by 47 which results in 316 overall. It forces you to swap some of your items to gain only needed amount of hit rating. Remember every single point above cap gives you ZERO dps.

Approximate Cycle - 5s/5r


* 4/8 tier 6 parts is the best option at the moment [ shoulders + bracers + belt + boots ]

========================================

Enchants:

Head: 34ap/16hit

Shoulders: Aldor/Scryers exalted enchant ( Aldors one is slightly better /~0.3dps/ )
* Naxxramas enchant is better tho but actually its not really achievable nowadays

Back: 12agi

Chest: 6stats

Wrist: 24ap

Hands: 15agi

Legs: 50ap/12crit

Feet: 12agi

Ring: 4stats

MH: mongoose (always!)

OH: mongoose

========================================

Build:

20/41 combat (swords)
World of Warcraft Europe -> Talents

16/45 combat (fist/sword)
World of Warcraft Europe -> Talents





I'd like to make sure if that is correct. Please someone to confirm.

Last edited by Noxe : Yesterday at 3:33 PM.
#2171SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Cyn
Spreadsheets give me that T6 shoulders are the better option over gloves to maintain t6 bonus
#2172SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Noxe
Originally Posted by Cyn View Post
Spreadsheets give me that T6 shoulders are the better option over gloves to maintain t6 bonus
guess you picked +hit food then? that can be correct think i have missed that let me check
#2173SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Noxe
Yeah I made a mistake. Shoulders is better choice if you take raid buffs in consider.
Previous post is edited please check if its correct now.
#2174SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Auturgist
A thought occurred to me that has me curious/concerned about haste versus other stats. Granted, I don't foresee this scenario occurring often, but during a recent encounter with Tidewalker, there came a time while blowing my cooldowns that, due to the one second global cooldown, I literally couldn't spend the amount of energy that I was gaining from both Adrenaline Rush and Combat Potency fast enough to keep up! Which leads me to my question:

Assuming you are nearly capped in Hit Rating, with a decent amount of Expertise, is there such thing as "too much haste" -- meaning, is there a point at which increasing your attack speed could yield an excess of needed energy via Combat Potency procs given that you can only spend it so fast? In other words, if you aren't missing very much (let's say less than 1.5% of your attacks), wouldn't it be better to attack slower with harder hitting attacks while generating just enough energy to keep yourself swinging than to attack with such blazing speed that the global cooldown actually hinders your ability to expend energy gained via Combat Potency?

Going back to my experience with Tidewalker: my raid leader said that I missed only 1.1% of my attacks. I don't know if his statement literally meant that I only actually missed 1.1%, or if 1.1% of my total attacks failed to land. (My stats at the time were 356 Hit Rating and 21/21 Expertise.) Anyway, the first time that I blew BF and AR during Slice and Dice, between the extra Rush energy, Potency procs, and return from Relentless Strikes, I was getting so much energy back that I just couldn't spend it as fast as it was coming in... I was spamming SS and 5CP finishers, but the global cooldown actually hindered my expenditure of that energy long enough that I actually topped off. It was surreal; this was the first time that I ever broke Aldriana's 4th commandment while spamming attack skills! And it made me wonder: my current trinkets are the [Shard of Contempt] and [Romulo's Poison Vial]. I'm sure I can make up the loss of 35 Hit Rating from the vial with gear upgrades (my current gear is top-end Kara with 2-pc T4 and the better 2.3 badge rewards) if I ever get the [Dragonspine Trophy], but how often will I run into this kind of problem if I keep adding haste effects?

I'm not asking anyone how to play my character, but here is my profile in case you are curious exactly what kind of gear I have: Valustria

Last edited by Auturgist : Yesterday at 9:38 AM. Reason: I added links to the items in the post...
#2175SourcePosted on <=2.0.0hedningen
@Noxe

I miss the Trousers of the Scryers' Retainer in your list of gear. They should be top 2 beating t6 legs.
#2176SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Noxe
Originally Posted by hedningen View Post
@Noxe

I miss the Trousers of the Scryers' Retainer in your list of gear. They should be top 2 beating t6 legs.
They aint on the list of items in 0.9.4 version of calc guess thats why i've missed them. So top 2 it is then kk.
#2177SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Ricard
Originally Posted by Auturgist View Post
A thought occurred to me that has me curious/concerned about haste versus other stats. Granted, I don't foresee this scenario occurring often, but during a recent encounter with Tidewalker, there came a time while blowing my cooldowns that, due to the one second global cooldown, I literally couldn't spend the amount of energy that I was gaining from both Adrenaline Rush and Combat Potency fast enough to keep up! Which leads me to my question:

Assuming you are nearly capped in Hit Rating, with a decent amount of Expertise, is there such thing as "too much haste" -- meaning, is there a point at which increasing your attack speed could yield an excess of needed energy via Combat Potency procs given that you can only spend it so fast? In other words, if you aren't missing very much (let's say less than 1.5% of your attacks), wouldn't it be better to attack slower with harder hitting attacks while generating just enough energy to keep yourself swinging than to attack with such blazing speed that the global cooldown actually hinders your ability to expend energy gained via Combat Potency?

Going back to my experience with Tidewalker: my raid leader said that I missed only 1.1% of my attacks. I don't know if his statement literally meant that I only actually missed 1.1%, or if 1.1% of my total attacks failed to land. (My stats at the time were 356 Hit Rating and 21/21 Expertise.) Anyway, the first time that I blew BF and AR during Slice and Dice, between the extra Rush energy, Potency procs, and return from Relentless Strikes, I was getting so much energy back that I just couldn't spend it as fast as it was coming in... I was spamming SS and 5CP finishers, but the global cooldown actually hindered my expenditure of that energy long enough that I actually topped off. It was surreal; this was the first time that I ever broke Aldriana's 4th commandment while spamming attack skills! And it made me wonder: my current trinkets are the [Shard of Contempt] and [Romulo's Poison Vial]. I'm sure I can make up the loss of 35 Hit Rating from the vial with gear upgrades (my current gear is top-end Kara with 2-pc T4 and the better 2.3 badge rewards) if I ever get the [Dragonspine Trophy], but how often will I run into this kind of problem if I keep adding haste effects?

I'm not asking anyone how to play my character, but here is my profile in case you are curious exactly what kind of gear I have: Valustria
I've run into the same problem, and it really only happens when you're popping balls to the walls haste effects on top of AR. Correct me if I'm wrong, but AR doesn't scale at all with any haste effects, so what I would do is do all your haste type buffs (drums, BF, pots) for about 15 seconds or so, then when all but drums fall off then start your AR cycle. That's what worked for me.
#2178SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Auturgist
Originally Posted by Ricard View Post
I've run into the same problem, and it really only happens when you're popping balls to the walls haste effects on top of AR. Correct me if I'm wrong, but AR doesn't scale at all with any haste effects, so what I would do is do all your haste type buffs (drums, BF, pots) for about 15 seconds or so, then when all but drums fall off then start your AR cycle. That's what worked for me.
You're right, the AR doesn't actually scale with any haste effects; I just use it at the same time because that many attacks from the haste effects tend to proc Mongoose and the Shard of Contempt. And I've always figured that jamming out as many Sinister Strikes as possible while buffed with those effects was best for my DPS, and AR helped me do so -- this is the first time that I have ever choked on my own energy gains though!

Is it a common problem, then? I'm wondering if I should continue with my tendency of blowing AR when I blow my other cooldowns -- if this kind of thing is a rare occurrence -- or if I should hold off on the AR and blow it after the dust starts to settle from my other cooldowns. What do some of you guys who are further progressed tend to do: blow AR with the rest of your cooldowns, or save it? (I'm asking about single-target sustained DPS encounters -- if I'm confident Evasion plus healing will suffice to keep me alive, I'll often blow AR with Blade Flurry just to mow down trash.)

Edit: Ok, I guess I lied... maybe I am asking people how to play my character. Hey, at least it's a very specific issue and not "OMG, help me to do max DPS, plz!" And I'm still curious about a possible "cap" on the usefulness of haste rating in light of the potential occurrence of this kind of problem.

Last edited by Auturgist : Yesterday at 10:40 AM. Reason: Ok, I guess I lied...
#2179SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Professor Hurt
New topic re: 2.4 -

Have any other rogues noticed a fairly significant change in the DPS dynamics of their raiding guild? I thought it was my build (switched Mutilate when 2.4 hit), which I was happy with at first, but then noticed my overall damage numbers were lagging behind 5 or 6 spots. I decided to go back to comb swords thinking that was the problem, but still couldn't hit my previous numbers. For example, our mages typically land in the 3/4/5/6 or so on a typical boss fight with around 1300 - 1400 dps. It's usually me and our destro lock fighting for first at around 1500 - 1600 dps. Last night I never reached over 1100 on any fight, and I won't even talk about my trash numbers (I do understand there was a damage cap lift for mages on trash, but afaik this won't affect their direct damage spells in any way).

I realize many things could be impacting this, such as a night of unlucky rolls (I don't believe this one), bugs in Recount (using the latest version), even bugs in the new blizzard log implementation. Regardless, has any one else experienced this since the patch? I feel I'm much farther down on the overall damage charts than normal and my DPS has yet to reach my pre-2.4 numbers, and the other rogues in my guild also seem to be much lower than normal.

Is it just me?
#2180SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Jeneon
After reading the posts in this forum I still find myself somewhat confused on what I really need to do to optimize my dps. I am currently Combat Maces using the [Syphon of the Nathrezim] and the [Swiftsteel Bludgeon] as I was following the system of "let your weapons choose your spec" as most have posted. I ran my gear through the Rogue DPS spreadsheet and so far for maces I have the best setup sans the [Dragonstrike] as Vulajin posted earlier on in the forum. Also I am following the prescribed 3/5/5 method that the spreadsheet told me was optimal. For trinkets i currently use [Dragonspine Trophy] and the [Warp-Spring Coil]

For gear selection my guild is working on Illidan Stormrage and our weapons drops have been rather sparse so taking the maces I thought would be an improvement in my dps. Currently I have my [Talon of Azshara]and my [Merciless Gladiator's Quickblade]in the bank. I was wondering if I should use them instead of the maces of incorporate the Mace MH/Sword OH approach or a hemo build.


Could you kindly direct this rather confused rogue in the right direction? I am more than willing to take any and all criticism for improvement sake.

Here is a link to my armory: The World of Warcraft Armory
#2181SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Dorvan
Originally Posted by Jeneon View Post
After reading the posts in this forum I still find myself somewhat confused on what I really need to do to optimize my dps. I am currently Combat Maces using the [Syphon of the Nathrezim] and the [Swiftsteel Bludgeon] as I was following the system of "let your weapons choose your spec" as most have posted. I ran my gear through the Rogue DPS spreadsheet and so far for maces I have the best setup sans the [Dragonstrike] as Vulajin posted earlier on in the forum. Also I am following the prescribed 3/5/5 method that the spreadsheet told me was optimal. For trinkets i currently use [Dragonspine Trophy] and the [Warp-Spring Coil]

For gear selection my guild is working on Illidan Stormrage and our weapons drops have been rather sparse so taking the maces I thought would be an improvement in my dps. Currently I have my [Talon of Azshara]and my [Merciless Gladiator's Quickblade]in the bank. I was wondering if I should use them instead of the maces of incorporate the Mace MH/Sword OH approach or a hemo build.


Could you kindly direct this rather confused rogue in the right direction? I am more than willing to take any and all criticism for improvement sake.

Here is a link to my armory: The World of Warcraft Armory
If you've read the posts in this forum, you know the answer already:

Use one of the spreadsheets
#2182SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Tarquin
Auturgist - I'd suggest putting up a 2-3S, 5r, and emptying out your energy bar before popping AR, and then making sure you drop an SS between popping each of your other cooldowns. It'll still be pretty solid synergy (off by like 2-3 seconds at most) and you ought to be able to stay ahead of the energy regen by jamming SS/Evisc without having to refresh S&D in there.
#2183SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Tleilax
Originally Posted by Professor Hurt View Post
New topic re: 2.4 -

Have any other rogues noticed a fairly significant change in the DPS dynamics of their raiding guild? I thought it was my build (switched Mutilate when 2.4 hit), which I was happy with at first, but then noticed my overall damage numbers were lagging behind 5 or 6 spots. I decided to go back to comb swords thinking that was the problem, but still couldn't hit my previous numbers. For example, our mages typically land in the 3/4/5/6 or so on a typical boss fight with around 1300 - 1400 dps. It's usually me and our destro lock fighting for first at around 1500 - 1600 dps. Last night I never reached over 1100 on any fight, and I won't even talk about my trash numbers (I do understand there was a damage cap lift for mages on trash, but afaik this won't affect their direct damage spells in any way).

I realize many things could be impacting this, such as a night of unlucky rolls (I don't believe this one), bugs in Recount (using the latest version), even bugs in the new blizzard log implementation. Regardless, has any one else experienced this since the patch? I feel I'm much farther down on the overall damage charts than normal and my DPS has yet to reach my pre-2.4 numbers, and the other rogues in my guild also seem to be much lower than normal.

Is it just me?
It's a Recount issue - I had the same problem. Specifically, locks and mages were getting hugely inflated numbers on AOE pulls. It seemed to be fairly accurate on single target DPS, but multiple mob AOE pulls were ubelievably wrong. I recommend the newest version of SW stats, it is working accurately with 2.4:

SW-Stats.com :: View topic - Latest Version [SW Stats 2.2.0] (WoW 2.4 ready)

From the web research I did on Recount, it seems that the original Recount author has quit WOW and is no longer updating the add-on. It is apparently being updated by a third party under the name of Recount (Preservation) and being released on WowAce. However, as you and I observed it is completely inaccurate in 2.4; personally I'm staying with SW stats. I had tried Recount only for those first few days after 2.4 when the new version of SW stats had not yet been released.
#2184SourcePosted on <=2.0.0koaschten
Recount ver.1 was taken over by Elsia and is compatible with 2.4 and actively worked on. You can grab it via the WAU. Rumours say, Cryect is working on Recount 2
#2185SourcePosted on <=2.0.0 Aldriana
Originally Posted by Noxe View Post
Itemization:

<snip>

I'd like to make sure if that is correct. Please someone to confirm.
It's not immediately clear what the value in listing off the best couple items in each slot is, given that that information is somewhat redundant with the EP system in the first post and the various spreadsheets. But, as long as it's already here, I suppose it's worth having it correct:

*[Belt of the Silent Path] is better than Don Alejandro's and should thus be ranked third.
*[Band of Ruinous Delight] and [Angelista's Revenge] are both better than Signet of Primal Wrath and should thus be ranked 3rd and 4th, respectively.
*[Golden Bow of Quel'Thalas] is better than any of the ranged weapons you've listed; it should be first, with everything else moved down accordingly. Although if you want to be perfectly technical, the rumored stats on Thori'dal would put *it* first, Golden Bow second, and the rest of your list after that... but you still should let the hunters get it first.
*And as long as we're being technical: [Vengeful Gladiator's Right Ripper] and [Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality] are both capable of higher DPS than Blade of Infamy via fist/sword spec.
*I would argue that if you only have one pair of boots, Cat's Swiftness is a better choice than Dexterity.
*Naxx shoulder enchant beats both Aldor's and Scryer's.
*I would socket so heavily with hit in the "ideal" gear - I'm of the opinion that since socketing agi relative to hit is only a trivial loss of DPS - and not always even that, depending on the nature of the fight - and gives some survivability - it's potentially worth trading out some hit gems for agi gems in order to drop your hit rating down to the trash mob hit cap or thereabouts (while 363 hit rating is useful against level 73s, against level 70-72 mobs you only need ~300 hit rating to cap out; thus having your unbuffed hit closer to this range can be useful. For bosses you can make some of it back with hit food, but I don't think I'd advocate being up around 350 hit all the time.
#2186SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Urraca
So Aldriana,

Let me ask you some bleeding edge questions, since I saw your guild downed Brutallus--but maybe the 101 thread isn't the place for this? We had about 6x 1% enraged/wipes last night, so tonight I want to make sure I'm squeezing out every single ounce of DPS I can. Heck, we even had 1% wipes with no demonslaying, except a DPS either got DCed or managed to get themselves killed (SO frustrating).

Obviously, I'm using Demonslaying + haste pots + 2x AR, 2x bloodlusts on the melee. The melee group consists of 2x rogues, enh shaman, fury warrior and Blood Frenzy/MS warrior (ugh wru feral).

I'm using a 4s/5r cut cycle, since I find that more manageable (especially accounting for dodges) than 3s/5r. I'm opening with garrote (since we don't have to move in) and than do a 3 point snd. By the time I do that the first BL is up so I AR+bf+haste pot+drum into a 5r than back into the my normal 4s/5r cut cycle. Is there a more effecient opener? Maybe go directly into a 1x snd?

Also, we are using CoR, so I'm using a DST + WSC, should I swap out the coil for the ashetongue trinket, since brutullus is an extremely static fight?

Also, Is it ever worth it to do a 5x rupture at say 50+ energy than vanish into a garrote, instead of SSing for your first combo point? I'm weary anytime I turn off Auto-attack, even for a second or two.
#2187SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Noxe
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
It's not immediately clear what the value in listing off the best couple items in each slot is, given that that information is somewhat redundant with the EP system in the first post and the various spreadsheets. But, as long as it's already here, I suppose it's worth having it correct:

*[Belt of the Silent Path] is better than Don Alejandro's and should thus be ranked third.
*[Band of Ruinous Delight] and [Angelista's Revenge] are both better than Signet of Primal Wrath and should thus be ranked 3rd and 4th, respectively.
*[Golden Bow of Quel'Thalas] is better than any of the ranged weapons you've listed; it should be first, with everything else moved down accordingly. Although if you want to be perfectly technical, the rumored stats on Thori'dal would put *it* first, Golden Bow second, and the rest of your list after that... but you still should let the hunters get it first.
*And as long as we're being technical: [Vengeful Gladiator's Right Ripper] and [Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality] are both capable of higher DPS than Blade of Infamy via fist/sword spec.
*I would argue that if you only have one pair of boots, Cat's Swiftness is a better choice than Dexterity.
*Naxx shoulder enchant beats both Aldor's and Scryer's.
*I would socket so heavily with hit in the "ideal" gear - I'm of the opinion that since socketing agi relative to hit is only a trivial loss of DPS - and not always even that, depending on the nature of the fight - and gives some survivability - it's potentially worth trading out some hit gems for agi gems in order to drop your hit rating down to the trash mob hit cap or thereabouts (while 363 hit rating is useful against level 73s, against level 70-72 mobs you only need ~300 hit rating to cap out; thus having your unbuffed hit closer to this range can be useful. For bosses you can make some of it back with hit food, but I don't think I'd advocate being up around 350 hit all the time.
I see. Obviously these 4 items do not exist in 0.9.4 version thats why i skipped them. Previous post is up-dated and hopefully nothing is lost right now.
#2188SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Auturgist
Originally Posted by Urraca View Post
Also, Is it ever worth it to do a 5x rupture at say 50+ energy than vanish into a garrote, instead of SSing for your first combo point? I'm weary anytime I turn off Auto-attack, even for a second or two.
I'm not Aldriana and I can't say for sure how Garrote compares to a single SS at your gear level, so take this with a couple grains of salt, but... I tend to time my Vanish to Garrote when I have the benefit of one or more +AP buffs from procs like Mongoose or Shard of Contempt. But I never force it for the sake of doing it; I always hold off for the opportunity to kill two birds with one stone: wipe my aggro and apply the buffed Garrote. If that opportunity doesn't come, I don't force it just to use Garrote a second time; I'll Vanish right into an SS and keep going from there.

Anyway, this question makes me wonder... I'm gonna hit up my raid leader for the WWS data from our most recent boss fight to see how MY numbers compare, to satisfy my own curiosity. Do you have access to that kind of specific information from your own past attempts? Maybe you can figure out how the damage/energy for the two skills compare.
#2189SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Urraca
Originally Posted by Auturgist View Post
I'm not Aldriana and I can't say for sure how Garrote compares to a single SS at your gear level, so take this with a couple grains of salt, but... I tend to time my Vanish to Garrote when I have the benefit of one or more +AP buffs from procs like Mongoose or Shard of Contempt. But I never force it for the sake of doing it; I always hold off for the opportunity to kill two birds with one stone: wipe my aggro and apply the buffed Garrote. If that opportunity doesn't come, I don't force it just to use Garrote a second time; I'll Vanish right into an SS and keep going from there.

Anyway, this question makes me wonder... I'm gonna hit up my raid leader for the WWS data from our most recent boss fight to see how MY numbers compare, to satisfy my own curiosity. Do you have access to that kind of specific information from your own past attempts? Maybe you can figure out how the damage/energy for the two skills compare.
It's not uncommon for me to have 3k SS crits on Brutullas. But that's a crit. Garrote ticks between 285-300. If you're worried about threat on Brutullas, you've already lost the fight and your tanks need to improve, so vanish shouldn't be a necessity.

Edit: something else I noticed, If you look at our god awful WWS, on a certain attempt, the other rogue is scoring over 10x more Sword Specs than me. Simply luck, or am I doing something wrong? I have ~30x hit. We are bothing using savagery + infamy.

Rogues - WWS

Last edited by Urraca : Yesterday at 4:40 PM.
#2190SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Goldengiff
Shattered Sun Pendant of Might (Scryer)

WWS Loading...

Did an hour test hitting the mobs in Blasted Lands with the new neck from exalted SSO (scryer version). Using dual 1.4 speed grey daggers, got 53 procs in 3918 hits, which is a 1.35% proc rate. Don't know what the internal CD is, I assume it's 45sec if there is one. The 53 procs did 36,375 damage, for a grand total of 10.1dps over the hour. Not sure how this converts to EP, but it doesn't seem that stellar overall, especially when you factor in the lack of stats on the neck.

It did crit 30% which is ~5% more than my expected crit rate (char sheet) so it looks like it crits off your melee or it's own internal crit rating.
#2191SourcePosted on <=2.0.0 Aldriana
Originally Posted by Urraca View Post
So Aldriana,

Let me ask you some bleeding edge questions, since I saw your guild downed Brutallus--but maybe the 101 thread isn't the place for this? We had about 6x 1% enraged/wipes last night, so tonight I want to make sure I'm squeezing out every single ounce of DPS I can. Heck, we even had 1% wipes with no demonslaying, except a DPS either got DCed or managed to get themselves killed (SO frustrating).

Obviously, I'm using Demonslaying + haste pots + 2x AR, 2x bloodlusts on the melee. The melee group consists of 2x rogues, enh shaman, fury warrior and Blood Frenzy/MS warrior (ugh wru feral).

I'm using a 4s/5r cut cycle, since I find that more manageable (especially accounting for dodges) than 3s/5r. I'm opening with garrote (since we don't have to move in) and than do a 3 point snd. By the time I do that the first BL is up so I AR+bf+haste pot+drum into a 5r than back into the my normal 4s/5r cut cycle. Is there a more effecient opener? Maybe go directly into a 1x snd?

Also, we are using CoR, so I'm using a DST + WSC, should I swap out the coil for the ashetongue trinket, since brutullus is an extremely static fight?

Also, Is it ever worth it to do a 5x rupture at say 50+ energy than vanish into a garrote, instead of SSing for your first combo point? I'm weary anytime I turn off Auto-attack, even for a second or two.
So, the first thing is, the "no Brutallus information" restriction is, as far as I know, still in force; as such, I'm going to refrain from dealing directly with the fight (not that there's a lot of comments to be made, but there are a few) and deal with with this as an abstract sustained DPS optimization problem.

So, first, on the topic of cooldowns: make sure to use them as often as you can, and use them together as appropriate; for instance you can use Drums (if applicable), Blade Flurry, and Haste Pot each every 2 minutes, so you might as well use them such that they're all up together. If you can additionally time this to happen during a Bloodlust/Heroism, so much the better. Note that AR is somewhat orthogonal to this, so needn't be used at the same time. Also note that if you're truly optimizing, you can throw in a thistle tea every 5 minute for a bit of additional damage. It's not a *lot* of damage, mind you, but 5 DPS is 5 DPS.

Second, on the topic of cycle: 4s5r is often the right cycle, though you might check and see if 5s5r has caught up for you yet (as does tend to happen with maximal raid buffs and end-BT caliber gear). Honestly, though, that tends not to make a lot of difference - the damage of the two cycles will be pretty close. The main thing to keep track of with regards to cycle management is ensuring that SnD never drops - ever. If you're dropping SnD at all, you're losing DPS and as such should lengthen your cycle to avoid this. The aforementioned thistle tea can also be used to help patch gaps in cycle - if you find yourself during an especially bad drought of procs, you can pop a tea to get an extra SS in to keep things going.

Third, on ramping up: with 4s5r, you can probably reasonably start with 1s->4s->5r and be fine; if you're doing 5s5r, it generally makes more sense to open 2s->5s->5r. Feel free to play around with it a bit and find what works for you; the general rule is that you want to get SnD up as fast as possible without creating gaps; thus, while a 1-pt SnD is sufficient to get a 4-pt SnD going, it's generally inadequate for getting a 5-pt SnD going and as such a 2-pt is more appropriate.

The exception to this is if you happen to be keeping Imp EA up for your guild; in this case, getting and keeping Imp EA up is more important than your SnD (though you obviously want both up as much as possible). The best way I've found of doing this is to open with a 2-pt SnD followed by popping AR and dropping a 5-pt EA followed as soon as possible by a 5-pt SnD. At that point vanishing is usually advisable since... you just popped AR in the first 3 seconds of a fight. You're probably pushing the tanks pretty hard on aggro. And you don't have to worry as much about catching up later as your DPS is 100+ lower than usual due to using EA instead of Rupture.

Ashtongue vs WSC: without getting too much into the specifics of the fight, I generally use Ashtongue for sustained fights against 7700 armor bosses, and WSC otherwise. In T6 content this basically means I only use Ashtongue on Reliquary and Gurtogg; I refrain from comment on Sunwell until the ban on discussing it is lifted.

It should be noted, though, that if you *are* using Ashtongue, you should make sure to queue energy as much as possible before each finisher, so as to maximize the number of SS that are landed during the proc. In fact, if 4s5r and 5s5r are close enough in theoretical DPS, you might even think about dropping to 5s5r to give yourself additional queueing time.

In terms of buffs: one might also consider scrolls of agility beyond the usual elixir + food. If you really want to go over the top, you can toss in a Str scroll as well.

Regarding Garrote: well, lets take a look at the numbers. At the beginning of the fight, one has no crit-chance modifying abilities active (Mongoose and Ashtongue haven't procced yet) - as such, your crit rate is only what you get from gear + buffs. Using my gear as an example (see armory), I have, unbuffed, 674 agility and 238 crit rating. With a scroll of agility, GotW, and Kings, my agility is up to 783; thus my crit rate is (783 - 11.5) / 40 + 238 * 13/287 + 5 = 35.07%; since there's usually a ret pally in my raid, that makes 38.07% - lets call it 38 even for simplicity.

Now, a SS with my Blade of Infamy does, on average, (260.5 + 98 + 2.4/14 * AP) * (1 + .06 (Aggression) + .06 (T6 4/5) + .1 (Surprise Attacks)) damage; my crit damage multiplier against a nonmurderable target is, by our best estimate, (2 * 1.03 - 1) * 1.3 +1 = 2.378x damage; hence, my 38% crit rate is an additional 1.524x multiplier; hence overall SS damage is on average 688.24 + .329 * AP damage; in terms of damage per energy, this works out to 17.206 + .008228 *AP damage per energy. However, this needs to be reduced by armor; at this early point in the fight, there's presumably no sunders up (yet), nor any armor pen procs; thus, the only reducers present are FF, CoR, and my 476 passive ArPen. This works out to a hypothetical 7685 armor boss taking 64.55% damage; thus the real damage efficiency of our SS is 11.11 + .005311* AP

Garrote, on the other hand, does 810 + .18 * AP base damage, +30% from Mangle, for 50 energy; this works out to a total of 21.06 + .00468 AP damage per energy.

Equating these and solving, we conclude that Garrote and SS are equally energy efficient at 15784 AP; since I have (surprisingly) less than this, Garrote would be the superior opener.

But what happens later in the fight? Once we have the 5 sunders up, the crossover drops to 4806 AP... which is still more than I have, but not by nearly as much. And if my crit rate or ArPen is higher - say from a Mongoose, Executioner, or Ashtongue proc - then there's probably no advantage at all. And there's *definitely* no advantage if it costs you any white damage at all. Also, the slower CP generation means that even if the raw energy efficiency is a bit higher, it's still not necessarily worth doing.

So my answer would be: opening with a Garrote does make sense; however, once the fight is going, it's only marginally worthwhile to Garotte in the first place; if you have any procs running it's probably not worth it at all; and it's *definitely* not worth vanishing just to do. So in general, I would say that opening with a Garrote is a good idea, but once sunders are up you should stick with SS.
#2192SourcePosted on <=2.0.0 Aldriana
Originally Posted by Urraca View Post
Edit: something else I noticed, If you look at our god awful WWS, on a certain attempt, the other rogue is scoring over 10x more Sword Specs than me. Simply luck, or am I doing something wrong? I have ~30x hit. We are bothing using savagery + infamy.

Rogues - WWS
WWS seems to be broken with regards to SS procs; it's reporting the proc event as a melee attack against the attacker that does 1 damage whether it hits, misses, or is dodged, which is obviously not correct. I'm not sure if this is some weird thing in the combat log or if WWS is not parsing it correctly, but I basically wouldn't lend to much credence to the Sword Spec numbers in WWS for the moment.
#2193SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Urraca
Thanks ald. I completely forgot about thistle tea as well.

Just an FYI for anyone, if you want to make some cash. Horde all the netherbloom, ghost mushrooms, and str + agi scrolls on your server if you have multiple guilds working on Brutallus. You can't find a single netherbloom for <50g on our server, and scrolls + ghost mushrooms don't exist anymore
#2194SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Professor Hurt
Originally Posted by Tleilax View Post
It's a Recount issue - I had the same problem. Specifically, locks and mages were getting hugely inflated numbers on AOE pulls. It seemed to be fairly accurate on single target DPS, but multiple mob AOE pulls were ubelievably wrong. I recommend the newest version of SW stats, it is working accurately with 2.4:

SW-Stats.com :: View topic - Latest Version [SW Stats 2.2.0] (WoW 2.4 ready)

From the web research I did on Recount, it seems that the original Recount author has quit WOW and is no longer updating the add-on. It is apparently being updated by a third party under the name of Recount (Preservation) and being released on WowAce. However, as you and I observed it is completely inaccurate in 2.4; personally I'm staying with SW stats. I had tried Recount only for those first few days after 2.4 when the new version of SW stats had not yet been released.
My experience was with Recount, yes, but I reset the meter just before we started. The mages still topped the charts (even on fights with no adds) and it felt like I was down roughly 300 dps from normal. So it's just me, or perhaps additional non-aoe bugs in Recount? I downloaded and will give sw:s a try tonight, thanks for the tip.
#2195SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Seleli
You state in the first post that stats on a weapon are still very important. This makes sense, but I was wondering if you have a general rule of thumb, like 10 EP = 1 DPS on a weapon, etc. I know consulting a spreadsheet will tell me what's best, but... my guild does loot fast, and I don't always have time to pull up a spreadsheet and plug the items in. I use Pawn in-game to give me general EP values, so can compare general stat allocation that way very quick, and would like to be able to judge on the fly if a weapon drop is better than what I'm using if they're close in DPS, but very differnt in stat allocation.
#2196SourcePosted on <=2.0.0 Aldriana
If you unhide the DamageCalcs page of the Rogue Gear Spreadsheet you'll find EP equivalences for just about everything you can think of - weapon speed, weapon type, weapon damage, procs, you name it. I'd play around with that a bit for your current gear and some other gearsets near the same level of quality to get ballpark figures.
#2197SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Professor Hurt
Originally Posted by Seleli View Post
You state in the first post that stats on a weapon are still very important. This makes sense, but I was wondering if you have a general rule of thumb, like 10 EP = 1 DPS on a weapon, etc. I know consulting a spreadsheet will tell me what's best, but... my guild does loot fast, and I don't always have time to pull up a spreadsheet and plug the items in. I use Pawn in-game to give me general EP values, so can compare general stat allocation that way very quick, and would like to be able to judge on the fly if a weapon drop is better than what I'm using if they're close in DPS, but very differnt in stat allocation.
It's also not out of the question to just memorize your weapon upgrades. There are so few, especially if your guild is doing one stage of content at a time, that you could simply commit them to memory and be ready when they become available. A cheat sheet on a post-it is also handy in case you have a bad memory like I do. I find calculating EP on the fly takes me longer than doing one of the above.
#2201SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Tleilax
Originally Posted by Professor Hurt View Post
My experience was with Recount, yes, but I reset the meter just before we started. The mages still topped the charts (even on fights with no adds) and it felt like I was down roughly 300 dps from normal. So it's just me, or perhaps additional non-aoe bugs in Recount? I downloaded and will give sw:s a try tonight, thanks for the tip.
FYI it looks like the newest version of Recount has been updated for 2.4 and is working accurately now. A guildie of mine just downloaded it yesterday and her meter matched my SW stats meter exactly on a full Mag downing last night.
#2202SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Professor Hurt
Originally Posted by Tleilax View Post
FYI it looks like the newest version of Recount has been updated for 2.4 and is working accurately now. A guildie of mine just downloaded it yesterday and her meter matched my SW stats meter exactly on a full Mag downing last night.
Great news as no one in our guild could get the latest swstats to work last night.
#2203SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1royaljester
Originally Posted by kwinto View Post
All the time. I wouldn't ask, but 0.9.5beta doesn't include SoC yet.
Yeah, it hasn't been modeled by the Gear sheet yet, which is my preference, but hopefully soon.

I've been using it lately over my AToL and love it a lot, only thing that annoys me is the proc name, "Heroism", which totally beguiles my classtimer mod.. :\.
#2204SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Azuj
Originally Posted by kwinto View Post
All the time. I wouldn't ask, but 0.9.5beta doesn't include SoC yet.
Read through pages 85-89 on the Rogue GEAR spreadsheet thread and you'll find a variety of posts all concerning this topic. Aldriana generously gives readers a solid preview of items in 2.4 and what they rate compared to the rest of items. It'd be a real shame to not read such an informative post, not to mention the others that will help assist in expanding your rogue knowledge.
#2205SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Mideci
Anyway, without trying to take away anything from Aldriana's work, the Shard is better than the WSC. I suspect in nearly every case. The proc is clocking at 40% uptime, the expertise benefit you can calculate yourself using the EP values shown in the Roguecraft thread. It's essentially awfully close to as good as the Dragonspine Trophy. It's not as good, but it's close to as good.

You're not going to want to blow through the expertise cap when using it, which means that other items that were heretofore "better" because they had expertise can now be swapped for similar iLvL items that use their stat budgets to pick up other stats. That's the great / terrible thing about trinkets. They don't really follow classical iLvl budgeting particularly well. So when you have the good ones, they provide a strong gear benefit.
#2206SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Oph
My apologies, but a tooltip has recently confused me regarding the value of a raiding rogue's Weapon Expertise (and the SoC trinket). the tooltip is one of those hints shown on a wow loading screen - published by blizzard - reading something to the effect of "a mob cannot dodge, parry or block from behind" (block and parry i've been aware of, guess i didn't realize dodge was as well).

The Roguecraft 101 top-post regarding Weapon Expertise reads "Your base chance to be dodged by a raid boss with any attack is thought to be 6.5%. For each 3.94 expertise rating you equip, you gain 1 expertise, reducing your chance to be dodged by 0.25% (thus it takes exactly 15.77 expertise rating to reduce your chance to be dodged by 1%). Thus, we can calculate expertise caps for various combinations of talents and racial abilities: ... "

I have some confusion connecting why the 6.5% 'chance to be dodged' would matter (quoted above) if a rogue spends their vast majority DPS'ing from behind. Why would a raiding rogue value Weapon Expertise as much the tables and spreadsheets recommend if ~90% of their time in 25man content is standing behind a tanked mob? The SoC gives Weapon Expertise, great. Why would a rogue replace a Warp-Spring Coil with an SoC if 90% of my raiding time is spent in a position that removed block/parry/dodge from the table to begin with?

I'm hoping there's a simple explanation that I'm missing and just haven't found the right documentation quite yet.
#2207SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Viper
Short answer: The mob can't parry, but dodge still occurs from behind. Expertise is to eliminate that dodge.
#2208SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1saedo
Originally Posted by Oph View Post
My apologies, but a tooltip has recently confused me regarding the value of a raiding rogue's Weapon Expertise (and the SoC trinket). the tooltip is one of those hints shown on a wow loading screen - published by blizzard - reading something to the effect of "a mob cannot dodge, parry or block from behind" (block and parry i've been aware of, guess i didn't realize dodge was as well).
Um a mob can dodge from behind. I think it's players that can't dodge.
#2209SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Oph
ahh, thank you very much - then only block/parry is removed from the table when behind a mob. the last 6.5% of dodge is still relevant from behind a raid boss and SoC retains it's value.
#2210SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Aldriana
Originally Posted by Mideci View Post
Anyway, without trying to take away anything from Aldriana's work, the Shard is better than the WSC. I suspect in nearly every case. The proc is clocking at 40% uptime, the expertise benefit you can calculate yourself using the EP values shown in the Roguecraft thread. It's essentially awfully close to as good as the Dragonspine Trophy. It's not as good, but it's close to as good.

You're not going to want to blow through the expertise cap when using it, which means that other items that were heretofore "better" because they had expertise can now be swapped for similar iLvL items that use their stat budgets to pick up other stats. That's the great / terrible thing about trinkets. They don't really follow classical iLvl budgeting particularly well. So when you have the good ones, they provide a strong gear benefit.
Notes on this:

1) Original estimates were made with no actual data on proc rate. As it turns out, the proc rate is towards the high end of my estimated range, and, as such, it's better than I initially indicated.

2) The major thing limiting it is the Expertise cap. Rogues have no alternative DPS talent to take in place of Weapon Expertise, so all combat rogues have 10 Expertise to start with; additionally, Slayer's Boots are far and away the best boots in the game, which provides another 6 Expertise. Thus, all endgame rogues will be at 16 Expertise without Shard, and, as such, Shard will provide at most 10 Expertise benefit - or just under 40 rating, relative to the 44 on the trinket. Does this cripple the trinket? No. It just means that it's about 10 EP weaker than the strict ratings would have you believe. Still very good? Yes. Better than anything seen so far other than DST? Sure. But I'd be willing to bet that when and if Naaru Sliver comes along, it'll be better.

Now, in terms of pre-endgame rogues (who thus don't necessarily have Slayer's Boots) the situation improves *somewhat*... although even there, Belt of 100 Deaths gives 6 Expertise and is a strong option. Fundamentally: it's definitely a good trinket, and most rogues are going to want to get it... but there are other itemization choices that may limit ability to use it.
#2211SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Latito
Originally Posted by Oph View Post
My apologies, but a tooltip has recently confused me regarding the value of a raiding rogue's Weapon Expertise (and the SoC trinket). the tooltip is one of those hints shown on a wow loading screen - published by blizzard - reading something to the effect of "a mob cannot dodge, parry or block from behind"
<snip>
I saw that tooltip myself - reread it, it said "A player cannot dodge, parry or block .... behind." Not sure how it was worded exactly, but it certainly said player. Unless of course there are 2 nearly identical tooltips, of which one says players and one says mobs (like you quoted). In that case, the one about mobs would be wrong. I suspect however that you just misread the tooltip, resulting in this confusion.
#2212SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Shaker
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
Now, in terms of pre-endgame rogues (who thus don't necessarily have Slayer's Boots) the situation improves *somewhat*... although even there, Belt of 100 Deaths gives 6 Expertise and is a strong option. Fundamentally: it's definitely a good trinket, and most rogues are going to want to get it... but there are other itemization choices that may limit ability to use it.
I think a good statement that boils it all down is:

It's probably the 2nd best trinket for rogues at this time, UNLESS you're a human rogue AND have other expertise gear, OR are non-human with more than 1 other expertise item (Vashj Belt AND Shoulderpads of the Stranger, for example). In those cases if you have WSC or ATL, those get close. The next trinket down on my list is Bezerker's Call, and I think SoC is better than that in almost every realistic case.
#2213SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Feist-Mok
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
Now, in terms of pre-endgame rogues (who thus don't necessarily have Slayer's Boots) the situation improves *somewhat*... although even there, Belt of 100 Deaths gives 6 Expertise and is a strong option. Fundamentally: it's definitely a good trinket, and most rogues are going to want to get it... but there are other itemization choices that may limit ability to use it.
So, my dilemma is that I'm a human rogue, with 100 Deaths, using swords. I'm trying to figure out whether I'm better off sticking with my Warp Spring Coil vs. switching to a Shard.

By my numbers, the passive stat comparison between WSC and the Shard is that they are essentially equal if we simply neglect any of the expertise I'm gaining past the cap. Which means that it's basically a straight proc for proc comparison. Any chance of, until a more full spreadsheet model shows up, a rough evaluation of the relative power of just the procs on these two trinkets?

My other options are to switch out my [Talon of Azshara] for a [Claw of Molten Fury], to drop a point from weapon expertise for Nerves of Steel or somesuch, or drop my BoOD for Deep Shadow, and eventually, the new badge belt. All of those options SEEM to be, from a pure stats standpoint, suboptimal though.
#2214SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Shaker
Originally Posted by Feist-Mok View Post
So, my dilemma is that I'm a human rogue, with 100 Deaths, using swords. I'm trying to figure out whether I'm better off sticking with my Warp Spring Coil vs. switching to a Shard.

By my numbers, the passive stat comparison between WSC and the Shard is that they are essentially equal if we simply neglect any of the expertise I'm gaining past the cap. Which means that it's basically a straight proc for proc comparison. Any chance of, until a more full spreadsheet model shows up, a rough evaluation of the relative power of just the procs on these two trinkets?

My other options are to switch out my [Talon of Azshara] for a [Claw of Molten Fury], to drop a point from weapon expertise for Nerves of Steel or somesuch, or drop my BoOD for Deep Shadow, and eventually, the new badge belt. All of those options SEEM to be, from a pure stats standpoint, suboptimal though.
I had this exact conversation with one of my guild's rogues yesterday - to him, I recommended SoC on higher armor bosses (where WSC's proc wasn't as strong), and WSC on lower armor bosses. If you have a lot of armor pen gear, WSC is likely to nudge up just a little though.
#2215SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Trishnakovic
Currently, the general assumption is that Expertise increases your Sinister Strike DPS. But does it really?
From what I know, SS uses a one roll system. Now let's look at the effect of 4 Expertise. Out of 100 hits, there will be one less dodge and one more hit (not crit). Since a dodged SS will cost only roughly 1/3 of the regular energy costs (?), you're getting a non critical Sinister Strike and one third of a Combo Point for 27 Energy.
If you had not equipped this extra piece of Expertise gear, your Sinister Strike would have been dodged. Now you're going to spend 27 Energy on another SS. For simplicities sake, I am going to assume that this SS cannot be dodged. With a crit rate of 40% and 5/5 in Lethality, this new SS will deal roughly 152% of the damage of a non critical SS. Multiplied by 27/40 (since you only had 27 energy to spend), you'll end up with 102.6%. Thus looking solely at the damage component, you'd prefer a dodged Sinister Strike over a hit.
The fraction of a Combo Point we lost might make up for this slight difference, but is it powerful enough to account for the 0.3 EP difference between 1 Hit and 1 Expertise? Especially since most T6 rogues raid with a 5s5r cycle anyway.
#2216SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Ticia
Trishnakovic: I believe that the current theory is Yellow Attacks like Sinister Strike use a 2-roll system, different from the 1-roll system that white attacks use, so expertise provides a benefit to damage as well as providing more combo points (and therefore a tighter cycle) over time.


On a side note, I was doing some quick EP calculations for someone in another thread, using the weights on the first post of this thread, and I noticed something that seemed a little odd. In the description for the EP values it says that each assumes you have Blessing of Kings, however for every single one of them, Strength is given the exact same EP value as Attack Power (namely 1.00). Since we assume that 1 AP = 1 EP, if we have BoK shouldn't Strength be 1.1 EP?
#2217SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 pewsey
Originally Posted by Feist-Mok View Post
So, my dilemma is that I'm a human rogue, with 100 Deaths, using swords. I'm trying to figure out whether I'm better off sticking with my Warp Spring Coil vs. switching to a Shard.

By my numbers, the passive stat comparison between WSC and the Shard is that they are essentially equal if we simply neglect any of the expertise I'm gaining past the cap. Which means that it's basically a straight proc for proc comparison. Any chance of, until a more full spreadsheet model shows up, a rough evaluation of the relative power of just the procs on these two trinkets?

My other options are to switch out my [Talon of Azshara] for a [Claw of Molten Fury], to drop a point from weapon expertise for Nerves of Steel or somesuch, or drop my BoOD for Deep Shadow, and eventually, the new badge belt. All of those options SEEM to be, from a pure stats standpoint, suboptimal though.
I'm in exactly the same position - hence my desire to get numbers to Aldriana for the spreadsheet update.

I have BoOD, SoC, WSC, AtoI. I also have BoDS.

My current guess based on bodging the spreadsheet is that AtoI + SoC + BadgeBelt > AtoI + WSC + BoOD ~= AtoI + SoC + BoDS

But in all cases the numbers are pretty small (like 3-5 dps changes at ~1600dps in my gear).

For reference, I stuck with BoOD + AtoI + WSC and just awaiting the SS to confirm my suspicions.
#2218SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1drumbum
Originally Posted by Trishnakovic View Post
Currently, the general assumption is that Expertise increases your Sinister Strike DPS. But does it really?
From what I know, SS uses a one roll system. Now let's look at the effect of 4 Expertise. Out of 100 hits, there will be one less dodge and one more hit (not crit). Since a dodged SS will cost only roughly 1/3 of the regular energy costs (?), you're getting a non critical Sinister Strike and one third of a Combo Point for 27 Energy.
If you had not equipped this extra piece of Expertise gear, your Sinister Strike would have been dodged. Now you're going to spend 27 Energy on another SS. For simplicities sake, I am going to assume that this SS cannot be dodged. With a crit rate of 40% and 5/5 in Lethality, this new SS will deal roughly 152% of the damage of a non critical SS. Multiplied by 27/40 (since you only had 27 energy to spend), you'll end up with 102.6%. Thus looking solely at the damage component, you'd prefer a dodged Sinister Strike over a hit.
The fraction of a Combo Point we lost might make up for this slight difference, but is it powerful enough to account for the 0.3 EP difference between 1 Hit and 1 Expertise? Especially since most T6 rogues raid with a 5s5r cycle anyway.
Special attacks do not use a one-roll system; they use a two-roll system. The first roll determines whether the attack is successful (i.e. dodge, miss, parry, block). The second roll determines if the attack will be a hit or a crit. Therefore, there is no phenomenon where decreasing dodge chance would negatively affect your damage output.

Also, you are refunded 80% energy cost for non-finisher special attacks that fail to land, not 66%.
#2219SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Trishnakovic
Alright, this solves this riddle then :P
#2220SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Dima
I'm trying to figure out if T6 2 peace bonus gives me 5% of the 30% on my SnD or adds 5%.

So 31.5% or 35% anyone know for sure and tested this?
#2221SourcePosted on <=2.0.0 Scheme
Originally Posted by Dima View Post
I'm trying to figure out if T6 2 peace bonus gives me 5% of the 30% on my SnD or adds 5%.

So 31.5% or 35% anyone know for sure and tested this?
It's pretty easy to see, since it adjusts the tooltip for SnD to say 35% instead of 30%.
#2222SourcePosted on <=2.0.0ispen
That might be an irrelevant question however I have been trying to understand how thats possible so please help me.

I was checking wws reports on brutallus and I have seen a human rogue with 2.7 k and Khazal, a horde rogue with 2.5kdps on brutallus while the maximum dps I have seen so far was 2.3k.

Had perfect melee raid with enhancement shaman, arms warrior, feral druid and survival hunter. Perfect drum rotation, used elixir of demonslaying, haste potions hit food etc. I was only missing curse of recklessness.

Their gear are slightly better than mine ( cloak, bracers, gloves and belt ) but I dont really think that would cause a 200-400 dps difference.

So how is that possible
#2223SourcePosted on <=2.0.0ispen
Sorry for double posting.

Last edited by ispen : Yesterday at 7:34 AM.
#2224SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Jakani
It could have to do with the debuffs on the mob. Do you have a hunter with imp Mark? Survival Hunter? Are you using CoR? Do you have a rogue using Imp Expose armor?

Those things coupled with the gear gap could account for it, I'd think.
#2225SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Trishnakovic
I am guessing that you were not only missing CoR, but also Imp Expose Armor. Those two debuffs combined can easily make a 200 DPS difference, especially when combined with other buffs such as Haste Potions and Drums.
You'll also note that the rogue you linked had a rather high crit rate of 44% combined with an above usual amount of Windfury procs.
Anyway, have your Hunter get that owl pet with Demo Shout and then make your Warlocks use CoR. This change should easily grant you another 125 DPS.
#2226SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1ispen
I am confused, are you suggesting a rogue using improved expose armor instead of sunders ?

We are using CoR now, we had 2 locks in the raid when I had 2.3k dps. We do have a survival hunter who is giving 300 AP with expose weakness. However, now we use feral druid in tanking group for devotion aura+imp.
#2227SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Mideci
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
Notes on this:

1) Original estimates were made with no actual data on proc rate. As it turns out, the proc rate is towards the high end of my estimated range, and, as such, it's better than I initially indicated.

2) The major thing limiting it is the Expertise cap. Rogues have no alternative DPS talent to take in place of Weapon Expertise, so all combat rogues have 10 Expertise to start with; additionally, Slayer's Boots are far and away the best boots in the game, which provides another 6 Expertise. Thus, all endgame rogues will be at 16 Expertise without Shard, and, as such, Shard will provide at most 10 Expertise benefit - or just under 40 rating, relative to the 44 on the trinket. Does this cripple the trinket? No. It just means that it's about 10 EP weaker than the strict ratings would have you believe. Still very good? Yes. Better than anything seen so far other than DST? Sure. But I'd be willing to bet that when and if Naaru Sliver comes along, it'll be better.

Now, in terms of pre-endgame rogues (who thus don't necessarily have Slayer's Boots) the situation improves *somewhat*... although even there, Belt of 100 Deaths gives 6 Expertise and is a strong option. Fundamentally: it's definitely a good trinket, and most rogues are going to want to get it... but there are other itemization choices that may limit ability to use it.
And yes, no one is really arguing these points. That said, I find this perspective a bit slanted from "where one sits" I suppose.

First of all, many of us don't have Dragonspine Trophies.
Second of all, many of us don't have Vashj belts.
Third of all, there is much to be said of using non-Vashj belts if one can find the expertise elsewhere as the stats on Don Alejandro's, Deep Shadow, the new badge belt actually look a lot better when one stops seeing the Vashj belt as "the best belt in game" because it offers expertise.
Fourth of all, Slayer's Boots are off Felmyst. Many of us are a long ways from Felmyst. I'd put my guild at 3+ months away.
Fifth of all, I've no doubt the Sliver will be better. Better than the DST for that matter. It's also off Muru as far as we know,. Muru won't even be accessible for probably 4-6 weeks. Let alone killed. And who knows how often that trinket is dropping.

Bottom line, the second best rogue trinket in the game is in heroic Magister's (0 for 8 by the way; already hate the place) and for those of us running Romulo's / Berserker's, it's a fairly gigantic upgrade. In fact, with the AToL about 2 weeks away for me, the chance to run without a clicky trinket if the Shard decides to drop for me would be a welcome change to be honest. Sure, I'd have loved a DST or WSC the past 6-12 months. It didn't happen. This probably will at some point soon.

And I'm not the only rogue for him this is completely realistic (ditto the AToL), while the other rare-ish drop items in T4/T5 content are already out of the question. Similarly, a late T6+ drop and T6 boots we aren't close to yet don't factor into the consideration. Even with said boots, it seems like a DST user would run DST/Shard over almost anything else, making the trinket, well, interesting. At least as interesting as getting a Shadowmoon Destroyer's Drape is for a Cloak of Fiends user, and probably more so.

I'm not really trying to start an argument here, but this is the second best item in slot in game until the Sliver comes out. And even then the Sliver won't exactly be "accessible". This is. Everyone pretty much should want one. Everyone without a DST should be like me and in Magister's Terrace every day until they get it.
#2228SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Trishnakovic
Originally Posted by ispen View Post
I am confused, are you suggesting a rogue using improved expose armor instead of sunders ?
A fully skilled Expose Armor will decrease the targets armor by 3075 compared to the lousy 2600 of a fully stacked Sunder Armor. Now the problem with Expose Armor is that it will block Devastate, so if your guild is using a warrior tank, you cannot use Expose Armor. The 2700 dps rogue's guild had two feral tanks, so there was no reason to use SR instead of the more powerful EA.
In short: If there's no prot warrior have a rogue apply Improved Expose Armor.

You also might want to check Plenk - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia :p
#2229SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Xcorp
Shard of Contempt

Hey guys,

I was wondering what the value of the[Shard of Contempt] trinket is...Is it better then the [Warp-Spring Coil]. How good is it for a raiding rogue? How good is it for a pvp rogue? What hit rating should you try to stay at? what expertise rating do u want to aim for? I've seen the earlier post i just wanna see if any test were done to confirm the rating of the [Shard of Contempt].

Last edited by Xcorp : 04/02/08 at 11:02 AM.
#2230SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Stfuppercut
There is plenty of info to read up on in the past 3 pages, please take a look.
#2231SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
royaljester
I don't mean to sound whiney or contrite, so if it comes off that way, I appologize ahead of time.

That being said, How am I supposed to break 2k on this fight? I had trouble reaching 1850-1900 most attempts.

Breakdown of the group/buffs I had:

Group: 3 Rogue, Enchanement Sham, MS warrior

Buffs:

-Imp BS (no trinket)
-Imp WF
-Unleashed Rage
-Survival Hunter (Pushing 1250agi so ~300ap)
-FF
-Mangle
-Full Sunders
-CoR
-Haste pots (3 per fight)
-Drums of Battle (2 drums in group, popped 3 per fight per person)
-1 Heroism
-Blood Frenzy
-Imp Hunters Mark
-Elixir of Demonslaying (2, since 5min buff, up for full fight)
-Spicy Talbuk

CD's were popped approx 5-10 sec into the fight so as to have 2 AR's, 3 BF, 3 Drums/person and 3 Haste pots. Heroism was given on the 2nd AR.

Looking at most of the WWS parses, the only real difference I can see between myself and most of the rogues there is multiple heroisms (usually just 2, but occaisionally 3). Also, My gear stacks up against 90% of those parses, save the glaives and the newer peices of Tier6 loot already being picked up, again, small differences, not ~500 dps differerence.


Any thoughts on this from some others that have killed him doing > 1900dps. I feel like I'm shortchanging the raid if I dont at least try to procure answers, but at the same time, I was mashing buttons as fast as humanly possible, missing no cd's, no cycles, nothing. So, again, I ask for help.

*Edit* Just like to add, using both the spreadsheets, my actual kill/attempt dps from last week (1830) and this week (1845) are within 2-3% of spreadsheet expected DPS (1870's), which, considering most people have assumed Brutallus has a "higher than normal" armor rate, this seems to say otherwise.

(Armory, just in case that helps figure this out)

Last edited by royaljester : 04/02/08 at 12:04 PM.
#2232SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Aldriana
Originally Posted by Mideci View Post
And yes, no one is really arguing these points. That said, I find this perspective a bit slanted from "where one sits" I suppose.

<snip>
Lets be clear: I'm not arguing that it isn't good, or that many rogues won't use it for a significant period of time. It's just that when one is discussing what's best in slot, it seems to me to make sense to assume that you have access to the best available gear. If you want to characterize Shard of Contempt as "very good in slot" or "best in slot for pre-T6 rogues" or whatever, that's *fine*. But when talking in an abstract sense about what's best, it seems to me to make more sense to consider it from the perspective of what's available rather than what any one rogue might have.

Originally Posted by royaljester View Post
*Edit* Just like to add, using both the spreadsheets, my actual kill/attempt dps from last week (1830) and this week (1845) are within 2-3% of spreadsheet expected DPS (1870's), which, considering most people have assumed Brutallus has a "higher than normal" armor rate, this seems to say otherwise.
The whole "higher than average armor" think is a myth. I tested both on PTR and live realms and came back with armor being ~7700, so I would assume he has 7685 just like many other bosses. The only difference is, every other sustained DPS fight since Tidewalker has had ~6200, so it seems high by comparison.
#2233SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Scrith
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
Lets be clear: I'm not arguing that it isn't good, or that many rogues won't use it for a significant period of time. It's just that when one is discussing what's best in slot, it seems to me to make sense to assume that you have access to the best available gear.
I tried adding Shard of Contempt to Aldriana's spreadsheet just to see what kind of numbers it would have. I used the same formula for expertise that the armor uses and the same ratio for the proc that the Hourglass uses (it has a similar "Chance to add X on hit for 20 seconds" proc). The numbers I got put it amongst the best rogue trinkets in the game.

The argument seems to be that some rogues already have an expertise higher than 10 due to existing gear, so a new item that puts them over the expertise cap isn't really that useful. I think this is the wrong perspective to take for evaluating this new item. One should consider that this new item could enable rogues to use different items in the slots where they are currently stuck using certain pieces of gear (e.g. Vashj belt) because those USED TO BE the only ones that gave expertise. Anyway, some food for thought for rogues that are stuck in the "I don't need any more expertise because I have items X and Y" mode.
#2234SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Aldriana
Sorry to rain on your parade, but if you got it that far ahead of DST, you made a mistake.

Consensus seems to be that the proc uptime is ~40%, meaning the benefit of the trinket should be about .4 * 220 = 88 AP + 44 Expertise, or 88 + 44 * 2.75 = 209 EP, which puts it a bit behind DST but ahead of everything else.

Now, you're right, there's always the question of what you can give up elsewhere to gain benefit here. But consider: say you're using Belt of One Hundred Deaths and aren't human, thus having 16 Expertise. Just using the trinket and letting it cap out drops it's value by 11 EP; swapping out your belt for Belt of the Silent Path (the next best option) costs ~19 EP. So it's actually better to just be capped out than to try to swap out your belt for it. I suspect you'll find this generally true, particularly at the Sunwell level of itemization where T6 boots are really just that much better.

Second example: lets say you're human with Belt of One Hundred Deaths. Now capping out costs you 6 Expertise off the trinket, or about 66 EP, so it makes sense to drop the belt to get it, right? Well... kind of. The relevant comparison is whether it's better to drop the belt or just use a different trinket. Ashtongue and WSC both score about 180-185, so are about 25 EP behind it; thus, it does marginally make sense to drop 19 EP off belt to get 25 on trinket, but this is not going to be a game-breaking upgrade. I'm not trying to defame 2 DPS, but you may have larger upgrades available that are more worthy of your time and attention.
#2235SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Feist-Mok
Originally Posted by Scrith View Post
The argument seems to be that some rogues already have an expertise higher than 10 due to existing gear, so a new item that puts them over the expertise cap isn't really that useful. I think this is the wrong perspective to take for evaluating this new item. One should consider that this new item could enable rogues to use different items in the slots where they are currently stuck using certain pieces of gear (e.g. Vashj belt) because those USED TO BE the only ones that gave expertise. Anyway, some food for thought for rogues that are stuck in the "I don't need any more expertise because I have items X and Y" mode.
Thing is, I fail to see another item slot where the no-expertise fallback is anywhere close to as good as the expertise item. One hundred deaths is way ahead of deep shadow, whereas the shard isn't quite as far ahead as the variety of second trinket options availiable from what I've seen in playing with the sheets and trying to guesstimate where the shard stands.
#2236SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1MonikaRed
Im trying right now to modify my spreadsheet to adapt it for trashes(hit cap, armor etc) : which stats do I have to change to get a correct one ?
I'd be very please to get some useful informations about it.
Thank you.
#2237SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Aldriana
Originally Posted by MonikaRed View Post
Im trying right now to modify my spreadsheet to adapt it for trashes(hit cap, armor etc) : which stats do I have to change to get a correct one ?
I'd be very please to get some useful informations about it.
Thank you.
I can't speak for the DPS spreadsheet, but for the Gear Spreadsheet the answer is basically "you don't". There's literally hundreds if not thousands of cells that would need to be changed to give answers for a lower-level mob, and the answers you'd get wouldn't be meaningful anyway.

I'd advocate that further discussion of this be moved to thread of whichever spreadsheet you're interested in modifying, though.
#2238SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Aldriana
Originally Posted by royaljester View Post
How am I supposed to break 2k on this fight? I had trouble reaching 1850-1900 most attempts.

<snip>

*Edit* Just like to add, using both the spreadsheets, my actual kill/attempt dps from last week (1830) and this week (1845) are within 2-3% of spreadsheet expected DPS (1870's), which, considering most people have assumed Brutallus has a "higher than normal" armor rate, this seems to say otherwise.
As a note: since Shard isn't yet modeled, it's hard to get an exact number out of the Gear Spreadsheet; but the estimate I'm putting together is closer to 1970 than 1870 for your gear and spec, so there is a "you're doing something wrong" component here as well. But lets start with the obvious differences.

First, I note that you've dropped WEx in order to use Shard of Contempt. This is a mistake. A large mistake. What you've effectively done is equipped a trinket with 4 Expertise Rating, an AP proc, and 10% fear/stun resist, which, while an admirable trinket for some situations, scores about 90 EP for a fight like Brutallus. You'd be far better off with Ashtongue Talisman and speccing back to WEx. This'll net you about 100 EP right off the bat.

Second, lets compare briefly to, say, my guild's Brut kill, which has 2 rogues posting 2200 DPS numbers, to see what differences there are between them and you. WWS in question: here.

Now, Rod has a Warglaive (2 now, but 1 for the kill), so is expected to do a bit more; but Sydric has gear very similar to yours so should be a fair basis of comparison. So what are the differences here?

*We're using 2 feral tanks, we are thus able to use Imp Expose Armor instead of Sunders (which is among the reasons I'm not doing 2200 DPS like the other rogues). This is a net +475 armor pen, which, by the table at the front, works out to about 180 additional EP.

*There's a ret pally in the raid, who's thus giving everyone +3% crit. This works out to about another 110 EP.

*I'm pretty sure Shifft was using the Solarian Trinket, which is another 85 AP.

So, that would be a net 500 EP or so difference so far, which works out to something like 200 DPS. Throw in the fact that the ret pally was in the melee group accounts for another 40 DPS per rogue or so, which brings total difference to 240. That group was also fed 2 heroisms, which is another 40 DPS or so past that. Given that Sydric did 2180 DPS, these differences would imply that you should be right around 1900, assuming you and he were both playing optimally.

Thus, we still have a small difference - 50 DPS, perhaps - to account for. It's less clear to me what that is; the usual suspects would be letting SnD drop, improper cycle management causing suboptimal Rupture uptime, mismanagement of cooldowns, and the like, but looking at your WWS I don't see anything too blatantly obvious. But, in all, a 50 DPS gap from theory is a little more reasonable - we've accounted for most of the difference with just the gear, spec, and buff differences noted above.
#2239SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1royaljester
I will admit, I was getting carried away watching CD's and not focusing on SnD uptime, I also notice that the sheet gives me a 5/5 cycle now, I was pulling a 4/5 and even a 3/5 at some times, from habit sadly.

As for the trinket switch, I guess the only reasonable way to use that as a Human is to not have Vashj belt at all, and even then, I'd be sitting 1 over the cap (which you stated was a waste of 11eap, roughly 5-7 less than switching back to AToL, but all in all, a fairly close trade-off, so proably stop using it, at least until I get a new belt).

I thank you for the insight. The big question answered here isn't that I'm justified or almost justified in my dps output for that fight, but rather not knowing the approx values of some of the group/raid buffs and how to implement them. After reading more in this and other threads, I'm going to push for a rogue spot to be taken up by a Ret pally, our 2nd feral tank to come in on this fight and make another rogue be EA bitch with the hunter/GoA group, at least until we can continue to get clean kills.
#2240SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Aldriana
Thing to keep in mind about Ret Pallies - particularly alliance ones - is that they're really only worth bringing if they're good. Yes, a Ret Pally will add 200 DPS to their group and 500 to the raid - but if they're only doing 1100 in the first place, you're actually operating at a net loss of raid DPS. So if you have a good Ret Pally doing 1.5-1.6k DPS in their own right, it definitely makes sense to bring them... but if you don't, it's not an issue that I would force. Yes, each rogue gains 100 DPS from the ret pally...but the ret pally does a couple hundred less DPS to start with, and boots a rogue out of the melee group, so even if the remaining rogues do more damage one has to look at whether it benefits the raid as a whole.

Similarly, with feral tanks: if you happen to have two competent, well-geared feral tanks, it's a definite asset on this fight - given that he doesn't crush, the higher sta/mitigation of a feral druid makes healing easier and allows a nice raid DPS boost from Imp EA. But if you just plain don't have a viable 2nd feral tank, it's better to use a well-geared warrior than to force the issue with an undergeared feral.

So, basically: there's definitely room for group optimization, but one still needs to operate within the confines of what's available to the guild; if you've never raided with a ret pally, this is probably not the time to start.
#2241SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Apps
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
Sorry to rain on your parade, but if you got it that far ahead of DST, you made a mistake.

Consensus seems to be that the proc uptime is ~40%, meaning the benefit of the trinket should be about .4 * 220 = 88 AP + 44 Expertise, or 88 + 44 * 2.75 = 209 EP, which puts it a bit behind DST but ahead of everything else.
Slight correction here - the proc is 230 AP, making it 213 EP.
#2242SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1royaljester
I know very little about paladins, especially the Horde kind, why are they assumed to do more dps on avg, without being "good"?

I agree completely, I would never suggest a crappy anything come to a raid over a competant raider, but I think we have a few very good players who could pull off Ret fairly well. As for the tank, we have two players, equally geared and probably very close in skill, so I see no downside, save our first kill had a warrior so now the other warriors all want a peice of the pie.
#2243SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Cybelirrae
Originally Posted by ispen View Post
That might be an irrelevant question however I have been trying to understand how thats possible so please help me.

I was checking wws reports on brutallus and I have seen a human rogue with 2.7 k and Khazal, a horde rogue with 2.5kdps on brutallus while the maximum dps I have seen so far was 2.3k.
First of all, haven't examined the detailed data on Chhybrid's ~2700 dps on Brut, but even over an encounter of this length the RNG does allow for some variation in performance even with exactly the same cooldown use, consumeable use, etc. Also remember Ch had the best pre-Sunwell rogue gear in just about every single slot (including glaives) when that kill took place (he has more gear now as he received crafted gloves and Slayer's Belt, both significant upgrades).

In my guild's multiple sub-1% wipes I noticed my DPS (with almost identical gear to CH's) could vary by as much as 250 dps on one encounter to the next. I had a full to the enrage clock wipe on Sunday night with 2550 dps and only one heroism. We got our kill on Monday where I received 2 heroisms and I ended at at 2403 dps.
#2244SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Dorvan
Originally Posted by royaljester View Post
I know very little about paladins, especially the Horde kind, why are they assumed to do more dps on avg, without being "good"?
Seal of Blood. It easily has a 100+ DPS advantage over Seal of Command.
#2245SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Cybelirrae
Originally Posted by royaljester View Post
I know very little about paladins, especially the Horde kind, why are they assumed to do more dps on avg, without being "good"?
Seal of Blood (Horde Pally only) is superior for DPS than Seal of the Crusader. I have not delved too far into my own (excellent) ret pally's emo to fully understand, but I gather Seal of Blood scales with haste and procs more frequently the faster the pally is attacking, whereas SoC has a constant PPM that ignores the speed of the pallies attacks. If you want to learn more, search for any Paladin gripes on the pally forums from Turgon.
#2246SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Urraca
Originally Posted by Cybelirrae View Post
First of all, haven't examined the detailed data on Chhybrid's ~2700 dps on Brut, but even over an encounter of this length the RNG does allow for some variation in performance even with exactly the same cooldown use, consumeable use, etc. Also remember Ch had the best pre-Sunwell rogue gear in just about every single slot (including glaives) when that kill took place (he has more gear now as he received crafted gloves and Slayer's Belt, both significant upgrades).

In my guild's multiple sub-1% wipes I noticed my DPS (with almost identical gear to CH's) could vary by as much as 250 dps on one encounter to the next. I had a full to the enrage clock wipe on Sunday night with 2550 dps and only one heroism. We got our kill on Monday where I received 2 heroisms and I ended at at 2403 dps.
It's possible. Looking at the 2.7k WWS, obviously he has glaives, but in his group he also has a feral druid, and the raid has the luxury of a ret paladin. 2 bloodlusts, and chain drums. One really odd thing is that he is using executioner.

I don't have glaives, and no sunwell gear yet, and sustained almost 2.3k without a feral druid in my group or ret paladin. I did notice some attempts varying by a pretty big chunk of dps, and I attritubted that to my WSC + DST proccing during a BL+BF+haste+drum casting. Having your trinkets proc during that time is a huge plus. Another thing is, make sure your locks don't forget to refresh CoR...that happened several times to us : (.
#2247SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1royaljester
Very good to know, thanks for the quick update. Still, being able to give around 700-750dps to the average/normal raid, on top of his own dps, wouldn't a ret pally only have to do 1100+Dmg to be considered "worth it"? Which, with a competant player and decent gear, I would think would be entirely possible.
#2248SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Aldriana
Complaining about Seal of Blood is a popular pastime amongst all alliance Ret Pallies, as far as I can tell; regardless, it definitely does make a DPS difference. If you check the wwsscoreboard for Brutallus, the top 6 paladins are all horde, doing 50-100 DPS more than the top Alliance ret paladin (which happens to be the aforementioned Draynam). This is not to say a good alliance ret pally can't justify their raid spot anyway; it's just the gear + skill requirement is a bit higher than for Horde.

On the topic of Chhybrid... looking at this WWS, things to note compared to, say, Cybe's 2400 DPS are:

1) There are two feral druid tanks, and Casey has no rupture damage to speak of; thus, they are presumably using Imp EA.
2) 3 Heroisms
3) 7 drums, meaning at least 3 people in the group using them.
4) Group composition of Enhancement Shaman, DPS Warrior, Feral Druid, and Ret Pally, which is basically as stacked a group as you can ask for

So, yes, I can definitely see how with this sort of stacked buffs one could get as high as 2700, given that a 2-heroism dual-glaive rogue is reporting 2400. I'm not sure to what extent this is optimal group composition for maximal raid DPS, but it seemed to work, so who am I to argue? It might additionally be noted that we'll be seeing more of this as time goes on - in a few months, once people have geared up further, I fully expect to see a WWS with a rogue over 3k DPS on Brutallus.
#2249SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Cybelirrae
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
So, yes, I can definitely see how with this sort of stacked buffs one could get as high as 2700, given that a 2-heroism dual-glaive rogue is reporting 2400. I'm not sure to what extent this is optimal group composition for maximal raid DPS, but it seemed to work, so who am I to argue? It might additionally be noted that we'll be seeing more of this as time goes on - in a few months, once people have geared up further, I fully expect to see a WWS with a rogue over 3k DPS on Brutallus.

As a side-note to this, my group consisted of an Enhance Shaman, 2nd rogue, DPS Warrior, BM hunter. So I did not have ILotP or trinket-buffed BS, but did have 6 FI procs. We also had a ret pally in the raid, but not in my group. Also, in the interest of full disclosure, I made an embarassing mistake on Monday. I had been farming Mana Tombs for agility scrolls right up until raid time and for this I was wearing my raid gear with Dory's Embrace (enchanted with +stealth) instead of my Gorefiend cape. I felt quite foolish when I discovered that after the kill.
#2250SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Scrith
Originally Posted by Feist-Mok View Post
Thing is, I fail to see another item slot where the no-expertise fallback is anywhere close to as good as the expertise item. One hundred deaths is way ahead of deep shadow, whereas the shard isn't quite as far ahead as the variety of second trinket options availiable from what I've seen in playing with the sheets and trying to guesstimate where the shard stands.
Yes but the main reason Belt of One Hundred Deaths is higher than, say, the new Belt of the Silent Path is due to the expertise. If you don't need the expertise anymore because you have the new trinket, all of a sudden One Hundred Deaths isn't as good as Silent Path. This is all I was trying to get at...to move away from this notion that something like One Hundred Deaths has the best rating as is therefore the best belt for all rogues, to consider that one component of its rating can now be rendered useless by a new trinket, and in that case it isn't so great anymore.

I know this isn't a radical idea...I guess I was just disappointed to see the Shard of Contempt dismissed almost immediately because on some spreadsheet somewhere it won't have a high upgrade score for a rogue whose gear already gives him/her high expertise. Perhaps we need a new feature from these spreadsheets...not just a list of upgrades by slot, but upgrade combinations (so rogues could see that a combination of Shard of Contempt and Belt of the Silent Path is better than a combination with higher individual scores, like Warp Spring Coil and Belt of One Hundred Deaths).

Last edited by Scrith : 04/02/08 at 5:57 PM.
#2251SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Feist-Mok
Originally Posted by Scrith View Post
Yes but the main reason Belt of One Hundred Deaths is higher than, say, the new Belt of the Silent Path is due to the expertise. If you don't need the expertise anymore because you have the new trinket, all of a sudden One Hundred Deaths isn't as good as Silent Path. This is all I was trying to get at...to move away from this notion that something like One Hundred Deaths has the best rating as is therefore the best belt for all rogues, to consider that one component of its rating can now be rendered useless by a new trinket, and in that case it isn't so great anymore.
You're missing the point though: if we ignore the expertise cap for a moment there are a fairly wide range of gear setups where BoOD is better than the #2 belt option by a larger margin than the shard of contempt is better than the next best trinket option. Thus given that only using one or the other is viable, the trinket slot offers a better 'second in slot' and thus is generally a better place to cut expertise. This will of course vary given your other gear options and availiable upgrade paths. If you have neither a WSC or ashtongue trinket, yes Deep Shadow or the new badge belt + shard of contempt will be better than one-hundred deaths and a Tsunami Talisman or whatever.
#2252SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Aldriana
Right... but the point is, it works both ways; if you're using the trinket, it's true that the Vashj belt isn't as good since you don't need the Expertise as much anymore; but it's also true that if you're using the Vashj belt, the trinket isn't as good because you're not using all the Expertise it gives. Thus, the appropriate way to look at it is to consider which has the most reasonable alternative, and take the piece without Expertise that is as close as possible to the piece that has it.

For instance: consider my current situation. I have T6 boots, the Vashj belt, and lets pretend for the moment that I have a Shard of Contempt (even though I don't). All in all these provide 93 Expertise Rating, aka 23 Expertise, aka 7 more than I need. Where, then, shall I drop the 7 Expertise?

Option 1: Drop WEx to get under the cap. This replaces Expertise with... nothing, and is thus no better than just being capped (well, it gives a utility talent, but no DPS, so we won't count it).

Option 2: Drop T6 boots. Well, T6 boots are about 120 EP better than the 2nd best option - which I didn't even have. Even if you assume the Expertise on these boots does nothing, they're still better than my old Nyn'jah Tabi's. Thus, these aren't going anywhere either.

Option 3: Vashj Belt. The next belt down would be either Deep Shadow or Shadowwalker's, since I don't have a Don Alejandro's, and Silent Path isn't available yet. As such, I lose about 25 EP getting this... and would still be (slightly) Expertise Capped.

Option 4: Shard of Contempt. Well, both Ashtongue and WSC are about 25 points behind, and I would no longer be capped by so doing, so this proves to be the smallest DPS loss; hence, I'm best off refraining to use this trinket for the moment, and sticking with what I have.

Now, will there be situations where it's better to use Shard and drop the Expertise elsewhere? Certainly. It's just that with Silent Path not yet available, those people with the Vashj belt tend to be better off sticking with it; those people with T6 boots are definitely better off keeping those; and those people that are Human don't get a lot of choice in the matter. So the correct thing to say about Shard is: it's a good trinket for many people, but not everyone can make use of it.
#2253SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Shaker
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
The whole "higher than average armor" think is a myth. I tested both on PTR and live realms and came back with armor being ~7700, so I would assume he has 7685 just like many other bosses. The only difference is, every other sustained DPS fight since Tidewalker has had ~6200, so it seems high by comparison.
In a discussion on this, I was directed towards a WWS where the MT landed a 132 point ThunderClap on Brut. Given the armor formula (from the boss armor thread), that means, at that time, Brut had 46.3% mitigation (fully improved TClap should hit for 246, and I verified that the character in question had fully improved TClap). 46.3% mitigation gives us:

.463 = A / (A + 10600)

.537A = 4907.8
A = 9139.3
So at that point he had at least 9000 armor (I believe but cannot confirm STRICTLY that only Feral Faerie Fire was on him at the time). Regardless, there's no way to get such a low Thunder Clap value without him having AT LEAST that much armor. Any variables I can imagine (buffs to the tank, debuffs on the mob) only point to a HIGHER armor value.

I think this bears further looking into, at any rate.
#2254SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Aldriana
Defensive Stance means TClap does a base 221.4 damage; this means boss mitigation is only 40.4%, hence armor is ~7150. Faerie Fire is 610, which would put us right around 7700.

Assuming the boss has 7685 armor like others, it would thus be 7075 after FF, the damage done would then be 246 * .9 * 10557.5/(7075+10557.5) = 132.56 = 132 damage.

Seems right to me.
#2255SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Shaker
Doh, I totally missed D stance. Thanks for pointing that out. Problem solved!
#2256SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1jarek771
Hit ~ happy point??

Okay...all i keep hearing is HIT HIT HIT! So what i did was went out and got plenty of hit, was top on meters. Cool right? Wrong! I only beat the Mutilate rogue by 2000dmg (aprox) with a sustained 690dps (aprox). So then i went out got rid of all the +8 hit gems and got myself some +4hit +4agi gems. Next Mag shot i was still, top meters, but this time by about 30k. Cool right? Wrong still!

This is were i cry (T.T).

Anyhow i was able to sustain about 730dps (witch is a nice improvement +40 to my dps is something not to complain about but i am haha) Anyhow, other then getting the exulted Scryer reputation enchant, and getting rid of my rather "nubly" druid chest piece([Shadowprowler's Chestguard]) for ether the [Chestguard of the Conniver] or the Zul Aman chest piece (name has slipped my mind but i know its on the hawk) what do i need to do here? I mean i have herd to find a "happy medium between Hit Rating and Attack Power. So i have come to you well played ladies and gentlemen for some input on what to do here.

What is the happy medium?

BTW this is my progression list:


(if you are looking at my jutsu look at Eve of Darkness on Medivh. That is the guild i progressed in. Armory has my guild wrong im in Blood Rain and we are working our way up to the top :-D)

Early/mid SSC
Early/mid TK
Kara
Za
Gruul
Mag
#2257SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Acyrith
Originally Posted by jarek771 View Post
Okay...all i keep hearing is HIT HIT HIT! So what i did was went out and got plenty of hit, was top on meters. Cool right? Wrong! I only beat the Mutilate rogue by 2000dmg (aprox) with a sustained 690dps (aprox). So then i went out got rid of all the +8 hit gems and got myself some +4hit +4agi gems. Next Mag shot i was still, top meters, but this time by about 30k. Cool right? Wrong still!

This is were i cry (T.T).

Anyhow i was able to sustain about 730dps (witch is a nice improvement +40 to my dps is something not to complain about but i am haha) Anyhow, other then getting the exulted Scryer reputation enchant, and getting rid of my rather "nubly" druid chest piece([Shadowprowler's Chestguard]) for ether the [Chestguard of the Conniver] or the Zul Aman chest piece (name has slipped my mind but i know its on the hawk) what do i need to do here? I mean i have herd to find a "happy medium between Hit Rating and Attack Power. So i have come to you well played ladies and gentlemen for some input on what to do here.

What is the happy medium?

BTW this is my progression list:


(if you are looking at my jutsu look at Eve of Darkness on Medivh. That is the guild i progressed in. Armory has my guild wrong im in Blood Rain and we are working our way up to the top :-D)

Early/mid SSC
Early/mid TK
Kara
Za
Gruul
Mag
So the answer to your question is basically, look at the first post of this very thread. It covers the equivalence values of the different stats and based on those you can see what is going to be the best for you. What it comes down to is that stacking stats doesn't work, you need a balance of AP, Crit, Hit, Expertise, etc to be doing the best dps that you can.

Your best bet is to grab one of the spreadsheets list at the bottom of that first post and plug your gear in, the sheets should be able to give you suggestions on how to enchant, gem, etc as well as what gear to pick up that may be within your reach currently.
#2258SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Greymist1
Originally Posted by Acyrith View Post
So the answer to your question is basically, look at the first post of this very thread. It covers the equivalence values of the different stats and based on those you can see what is going to be the best for you. What it comes down to is that stacking stats doesn't work, you need a balance of AP, Crit, Hit, Expertise, etc to be doing the best dps that you can.
I'd add a caveat to this: for most rogues (any combat rogue below the hit cap), stacking hit in gem slots is a win. The way item budgeting works is why you want a mix on your items, since you end up with more DPS stat points overall than an equivalent item (same ilvl) with fewer stat types. But for gems, just gem for the stat which is most valuable to you, unless there's a really good socket bonus to pick up (and of course you also need to toss in some gems to activate your metagem). Hit is usually the most valuable stat for rogues (out of any stat which can be had in a gem slot, anyways).
#2259SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Aéquitas
Your max hit also depends on wether your guild raidas with a moonkin with impr fairy fire. Mine does sometimes and the extra 3 hit I get from it makes sure I always try to have around 296 hit.

296 hit + 20 hit (food) + 47 hit (impr. FF) gets me 363 hit.

If I get alot of hit from gear then my second cap would be 316 hit and then use 20 agi food.
#2260SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Ashere
+hit is good, but there's basically no fixed amount you should have anywhere, it all depends on the gear you have. If an item gives you +8 AP just for getting 3 gems in the right colors, then you're a fool if you put an 8 hit gem in a red socket. An 8 hit gem may beat a 16 AP gem in dps value, it won't beat 16 + 8 = 24AP unless your AP is already very high while your hit is extremely horrible. For a Kara-only rogue, neither my AP or my hit are too shabby, and it seems that around 18AP vs 8hit the two even out.

And I'm not even talking about agi gems or other possible set bonusses. The simple answer to this is: get your spreadsheets, and compare.
#2261SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1evl
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
Option 4: Shard of Contempt. Well, both Ashtongue and WSC are about 25 points behind, and I would no longer be capped by so doing, so this proves to be the smallest DPS loss; hence, I'm best off refraining to use this trinket for the moment, and sticking with what I have.
I'm in the situation where I have 100 Deaths and I'm using Ashtongue and WSC, I was definitely planning on picking up a shard but even though the current spreadsheet puts Ashtongue slightly above WSC I'm more inclined to keep my WSC. I'm currently on Brutalus with my guild so my question is, which one do I drop?
#2262SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Aldriana
I prefer Ashtongue to WSC for Brutallus, Gurtogg, and Reliquary, but WSC for almost everything else (given that most other things are either interrupted, 6200 armor, or both - which favors WSC relative to AToL).
#2263SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Grung
Looking at the EP values in the first post, and the buffs selected, shouldn't STR be 1.10 when you have kings in the bufflist ?
#2264SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Vulajin
Originally Posted by Grung View Post
Looking at the EP values in the first post, and the buffs selected, shouldn't STR be 1.10 when you have kings in the bufflist ?
Yes. Whenever I next update the post, I'll be sure to fix that.
#2265SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Roefyll
I've done some preliminary testing of the proc rate on the Fists of Fury combo, [Claw of Molten Fury] and [Fist of Molten Fury]

It seems to be around 5.8 PPM from the samples I've taken while doing dailies, unless I'm reading the WWS wrong. I'm very pleased, as it looks like the new fist weapons are still a fair bit off.

Ongoing testing: Rofyll - WWS

EDIT: Damnit, I ruined it by bandaging.

Last edited by Roefyll : 04/03/08 at 8:00 AM.
#2266SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1jarek771
sweet guys thanks alot, just got to figure out how to use one of those spreadsheets haha. Anyhow thanks for the imput, im going to preaty much keep it a personal rule of thumb to not go below 300 unbuffed unless i can.
#2267SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Antumbra
Originally Posted by Roefyll View Post
I've done some preliminary testing of the proc rate on the Fists of Fury combo, [Claw of Molten Fury] and [Fist of Molten Fury]

It seems to be around 5.8 PPM from the samples I've taken while doing dailies, unless I'm reading the WWS wrong. I'm very pleased, as it looks like the new fist weapons are still a fair bit off.

Ongoing testing: Rofyll - WWS

EDIT: Damnit, I ruined it by bandaging.
That report doesn't seem to be up anymore, so I'll just ask: Does the fire proc get resists/partial resists? If not, am I correct in assuming it ignores armor? If the proc has the ability to crit or benefits from flame cap, that'd make it even nicer.

Baseline, though, it would add around 12 DPS to the set based on that PPM, which is not huge but definitely helps make them compete a little better with alternative weapons. Being trash drops in Hyjal means that they're much more accessible than most of the alternatives, too.


Jerek: With stats close to yours I was clocking significantly higher DPS. Are you getting a good group setup? If you are, I'd suggest looking carefully at your combo point rotation and trying out some other options to see if you can boost your average DPS. Back around your gear level I ended up discovering some problems with my rotation (along with other secondary things, like poison selection) and was able to gain about 75-100 DPS on average by correcting those problems. I'd also suggest switching out that tank neck for the melee DPS one off the badge vendor; my instinct is that you're not going to benefit as much from expertise at your gear level as you would from AP/Agi, though the spreadsheet might prove me wrong. The stam on that neck definitely isn't necessary unless you have threat issues with your tank, except perhaps on fights with lots of AoE damage like gruul and malchezaar (and careful play can help compensate there).
#2268SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Frederiksen78
The section on Unique Gems needs a 2.4 update as they are no longer Unique-Equipped.
#2269SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
 AtADeadRun
Covered a couple pages ago: http://elitistjerks.com/691244-post2154.html

"Note that the PvP and jewelcrafting gems listed below are also unique-equip, meaning you may only wear one in any given set of gear."

Only the heroic gems are no longer unique equipped; the PvP and JC ones still are, which is what that line says.

Last edited by AtADeadRun : 04/03/08 at 7:23 AM. Reason: Added link to earlier post.
#2270SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Roefyll
Originally Posted by Antumbra View Post
That report doesn't seem to be up anymore, so I'll just ask: Does the fire proc get resists/partial resists? If not, am I correct in assuming it ignores armor? If the proc has the ability to crit or benefits from flame cap, that'd make it even nicer.

Baseline, though, it would add around 12 DPS to the set based on that PPM, which is not huge but definitely helps make them compete a little better with alternative weapons. Being trash drops in Hyjal means that they're much more accessible than most of the alternatives, too.
Yes, with my current gearset I estimated it would have to have a 1.3 PPM to be a sidegrade from my current gear. At >5 PPM it's an upgrade, so I'm going to use them (after I get them enchanted) until the Heroic badge vendor is stocked on Feathermoon.

I've reopened the WWS if anyone else wants to take a look. This includes grinding the mana wyrms in BEM for the SSO daily, and contains the previously mentioned bandaging etc.
#2271SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1kwinto
Originally Posted by Frederiksen78 View Post
The section on Unique Gems needs a 2.4 update as they are no longer Unique-Equipped.
True, but farming heroic BM day by day for +1 Agi doesn't appeal to me... Yes, I know - spreadsheet recommends changing even [Rigid Dawnstone]s to [Glinting Fire Opal], but still I don't believe that it's worth PUGging...
I'd rather try to buy some T6 gems on AH or for badges.
#2272SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1jarek771
Originally Posted by Greymist1 View Post
I'd add a caveat to this: for most rogues (any combat rogue below the hit cap), stacking hit in gem slots is a win. The way item budgeting works is why you want a mix on your items, since you end up with more DPS stat points overall than an equivalent item (same ilvl) with fewer stat types. But for gems, just gem for the stat which is most valuable to you, unless there's a really good socket bonus to pick up (and of course you also need to toss in some gems to activate your metagem). Hit is usually the most valuable stat for rogues (out of any stat which can be had in a gem slot, anyways).
soo...just for clairification, should i drop my 4/4's for +8 hit?
#2273SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1kwinto
Originally Posted by jarek771 View Post
soo...just for clairification, should i drop my 4/4's for +8 hit?
Use the spreadsheet, Jarku. Sometimes in case of three paladins (BoK) agi is valued higher than hit. But the difference is so small, that it's not worth changing gems from raid to raid. And in interrupted fights (like Leo or Zul'Jin) it's even better.

Least reason to keep the agi is +dodge, but you may love it in TK, at those Vindicator guys' whirlwind. It's like Cheat Death sometimes
#2274SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Eowyndra
Originally Posted by Noxe View Post

Range:
1.Golden Bow of Quel'Thalas [Golden Bow of Quel'Thalas]
2.Blade of Life's Inevitability [Blade of Life's Inevitability]
3.Arcanite Steam-Pistol [Arcanite Steam-Pistol]
4.Barrel-Blade Longrifle [Barrel-Blade Longrifle]
[Crossbow of Relentless Strikes], which will be available at the Heroic Badges vendor once the third daily quest obejctive has been completed and the anvil has been built, would surpass [Blade of Life's Inevitability] and thus come in second.
And even if every hunter is going to hate me for this: Thor'idal, the Stars' Fury is clearly the best in slot.
#2275SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1dazed420
I am curious, are we no longer interested in Madness or is the recent dialog only in regards to Brut?

I can agree with the use of the rogue BT trinket if used correct, saving energy before a finisher to get the max amount of SS with the buff, but I am having a hard time seeing the value of WSC over Madness.

I can see the BT trinket over Madness for Brut but for your standard trash and farm instances Madness is easy to use and no fuss.


As for Shard, given that I have the SSC and Mount belts, I use depths over don, you gain some stam and a little crit with no real socket bonus to speak of over the expertise.

So the question now comes, out of DST, Madness, WSC, Ashtongue, and Shard knowing that a non human is sitting at 16 with the SSC belt where do we go for max DPS for the Brut fight.

I don't think Shard is a viable option due to the fact that the loss in hit, over cap of expertise, and the constant static AP and AC ignore buff which is stacking with the other passive AC ignore and boss debuffs giving Madness the edge on that. If I'm wrong here could someone explain why so I can gain a better understanding please.

WSC vs Madness, once again I'm thinking the constant AP from Madness over times gives it a slight edge over WSC. Perhaps I am wrong and not accounting for the DPS gain from the extra ac ignore?

Madness vs Ashtongue, I think for any other fight other than Brut Madness wins out but for Brut I think and it appears others agree Ashtongue is the way to go.
#2276SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Aldriana
Originally Posted by Eowyndra View Post
[Crossbow of Relentless Strikes], which will be available at the Heroic Badges vendor once the third daily quest obejctive has been completed and the anvil has been built, would surpass [Blade of Life's Inevitability] and thus come in second.
And even if every hunter is going to hate me for this: Thor'idal, the Stars' Fury is clearly the best in slot.
The crossbow comes in behind Blade of Life's Inevitability, at least for me; it's DPS is comparable, and it loses the stamina. And the Thori'dal thing has been mentioned, as any rogue that takes it over a hunter deserves to be shot. In a couple months, when your hunters have it, it's worth thinking about picking one up - but for the moment, it may be best in slot but not in a way that's actually useful.

Originally Posted by dazed420 View Post
I am curious, are we no longer interested in Madness or is the recent dialog only in regards to Brut?

I can agree with the use of the rogue BT trinket if used correct, saving energy before a finisher to get the max amount of SS with the buff, but I am having a hard time seeing the value of WSC over Madness.

I can see the BT trinket over Madness for Brut but for your standard trash and farm instances Madness is easy to use and no fuss.


As for Shard, given that I have the SSC and Mount belts, I use depths over don, you gain some stam and a little crit with no real socket bonus to speak of over the expertise.

So the question now comes, out of DST, Madness, WSC, Ashtongue, and Shard knowing that a non human is sitting at 16 with the SSC belt where do we go for max DPS for the Brut fight.

I don't think Shard is a viable option due to the fact that the loss in hit, over cap of expertise, and the constant static AP and AC ignore buff which is stacking with the other passive AC ignore and boss debuffs giving Madness the edge on that. If I'm wrong here could someone explain why so I can gain a better understanding please.

WSC vs Madness, once again I'm thinking the constant AP from Madness over times gives it a slight edge over WSC. Perhaps I am wrong and not accounting for the DPS gain from the extra ac ignore?

Madness vs Ashtongue, I think for any other fight other than Brut Madness wins out but for Brut I think and it appears others agree Ashtongue is the way to go.
Madness is reasonable trinket, but for many people it is inferior to both Ashtongue and WSC for sustained fights. Ashtongue has the usual limitations in terms of being very dependent on keeping up a sustained cycle, so for a fight where there are interruptions Madness may be better... but for this sort of fight, WSC is usually better still (as the proc is a *lot* more powerful making it comparable in the first place, and the fact that it can cool during interruptions is also a plus). There's also the fact that WSC is a rogue-only trinket from T5, and Ashtongue is a free reward for doing BT for a couple of months, while Madness requires a drop from the end of BT that other people are going to want - thus, a lot fewer rogues are going to have Madness than the other two, particularly since it's likely that even if it *does* drop for you, there's going to be someone else in the raid that *doesn't* already have 2 very competitive alternatives, and, as such, is going to want it a lot more badly than you do.

Now, this is not to say that there aren't fights where Madness would be useful; there are. But in terms of overall utility: if you have all three trinkets (Ashtongue, WSC, and Madness), Madness is the one you're going to use by far the least.

In terms of max damage on Brut in particular: using the estimates in this thread, one should be able to rank it against the other trinkets in the spreadsheet, and as Brut is approximated by "endless combat" fairly well, the answers that the spreadsheet gives should be fairly on-target. My suspicion is that you're going to find DST is best, followed by either Shard or Ashtongue.
#2277SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Tleilax
Has anyone done any solid testing of mutilate post 2.4 patch buff and/or have any WWS reports to share? I have specced mutilate since 2.4, used it in 3 25-man raids so far, and it does seem that I've been able to equal my usual DPS output from combat swords (I have been combat swords with Spiteblade and an S2 arena off-hand).

However, the time is rapidly approaching when I will be spending a lot of badges on some new 2.4 badge weapons. I am kind of torn between the 2 Vanir's fist weapons for combat fists or the 2 new daggers for mutilate. I know that Vanir's right fist of brutality alone with a fist/sword spec is going to be a 50 DPS upgrade for me according to Aldriana's gear spreadsheet, but I also know that the daggers with mutilate will be a significant DPS upgrade from my current weapons as well. The DPS spreadsheet says that I'll be doing 100 DPS higher with the 2 new badge daggers and mutilate spec, but I know that the mutilate modeling in that sheet has been faulty in the past and I'm not comfortable trusting those numbers.

The theorycraft in this thread leads me to believe that combat is likely going to still be the top raiding spec over mutilate, but 2.4 has buffed mutilate a lot and from my own experience so far it seems that mutilate is a very viable raiding spec now that may equal combat. I am wondering what the EJ boards thoughts are on this matter and if any of you highly geared testing experts would be willing to take the time to post some WWS reports of mutilate in a high-end raid?
#2278SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Macblade
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
Right... but the point is, it works both ways; if you're using the trinket, it's true that the Vashj belt isn't as good since you don't need the Expertise as much anymore; but it's also true that if you're using the Vashj belt, the trinket isn't as good because you're not using all the Expertise it gives. Thus, the appropriate way to look at it is to consider which has the most reasonable alternative, and take the piece without Expertise that is as close as possible to the piece that has it.

For instance: consider my current situation. I have T6 boots, the Vashj belt, and lets pretend for the moment that I have a Shard of Contempt (even though I don't). All in all these provide 93 Expertise Rating, aka 23 Expertise, aka 7 more than I need. Where, then, shall I drop the 7 Expertise?

Option 1: Drop WEx to get under the cap. This replaces Expertise with... nothing, and is thus no better than just being capped (well, it gives a utility talent, but no DPS, so we won't count it).

Option 2: Drop T6 boots. Well, T6 boots are about 120 EP better than the 2nd best option - which I didn't even have. Even if you assume the Expertise on these boots does nothing, they're still better than my old Nyn'jah Tabi's. Thus, these aren't going anywhere either.

Option 3: Vashj Belt. The next belt down would be either Deep Shadow or Shadowwalker's, since I don't have a Don Alejandro's, and Silent Path isn't available yet. As such, I lose about 25 EP getting this... and would still be (slightly) Expertise Capped.

Option 4: Shard of Contempt. Well, both Ashtongue and WSC are about 25 points behind, and I would no longer be capped by so doing, so this proves to be the smallest DPS loss; hence, I'm best off refraining to use this trinket for the moment, and sticking with what I have.

Now, will there be situations where it's better to use Shard and drop the Expertise elsewhere? Certainly. It's just that with Silent Path not yet available, those people with the Vashj belt tend to be better off sticking with it; those people with T6 boots are definitely better off keeping those; and those people that are Human don't get a lot of choice in the matter. So the correct thing to say about Shard is: it's a good trinket for many people, but not everyone can make use of it.
I just want to be clarify, so as a human, shard is never as good as say, Ashtongue? Specifically, I don't have the belt of a hundred deaths, or the T6 boots. I never got WSC so my tinkets are DST and ashtongue with the obviously inferior Beserker's Call as my third place. So even though, my expertise is 0 from equipment at this point, it still wouldn't be worth equiping the shard?
#2279SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Aldriana
Originally Posted by Macblade View Post
I just want to be clarify, so as a human, shard is never as good as say, Ashtongue? Specifically, I don't have the belt of a hundred deaths, or the T6 boots. I never got WSC so my tinkets are DST and ashtongue with the obviously inferior Beserker's Call as my third place. So even though, my expertise is 0 from equipment at this point, it still wouldn't be worth equiping the shard?
Well, as a human with WEx and no Expertise from gear, you're at 15 Expertise, right? So the 11 from Shard doesn't put you over the cap; hence, there's no reason not to use it.

The point is that, as a general rule, if you're over the cap, dropping Shard to get back under is usually the way to go, it seems; but if you're not over the cap, it's just a great trinket. Particularly in your case, I might note; given that Ashtongue has severe limitations on certain fight types and you don't have WSC or Madness to patch, I would say that Shard is probably a very strong option.
#2280SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Myrx
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
Well, as a human with WEx and no Expertise from gear, you're at 15 Expertise, right? So the 11 from Shard doesn't put you over the cap; hence, there's no reason not to use it.

The point is that, as a general rule, if you're over the cap, dropping Shard to get back under is usually the way to go, it seems; but if you're not over the cap, it's just a great trinket. Particularly in your case, I might note; given that Ashtongue has severe limitations on certain fight types and you don't have WSC or Madness to patch, I would say that Shard is probably a very strong option.
You mention it is a "general" rule, but does it apply in the case of WEx + Shard + Slayer's Boots which puts you 1 expertise over the cap, or is that such a miniscule difference that Shard stays ahead.

Using the math for the EP calculation of Shard you posted earlier we'd get: 84 + 44 * 2.75 = 205 EP
If we drop 4 expertise off (wasted expertise) we get: 84 + 40 * 2.75 = 194 EP
If we drop 8 expertise off (wasted expertise) we get: 84 + 36 * 2.75 = 183 EP
The spreadsheet shows the EP value of AToL for me at: 189.32 EP

So what I take from this is that in the case of going 1 expertise over the cap it is better to keep Shard over AToL, however if it puts me 2 expertise over the cap AToL becomes better again. I am curious if this is the same break even point for everyone, or if lower gear levels show a different break even point for going over the expertise cap.

Please correct me if any of my conclusions have been incorrect.
#2281SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Aldriana
Once it's in the spreadsheet I'll be able to give a more definitive answer to this, but my answer in the short term would be:

With, say, Vashj belt or T6 boots (but not both), which would cause Shard to put you 1 Expertise over the cap, the "nature of the fight" rule takes precedence.

Relative to AToL: On a fight like Brutallus where Ashtongue reaches it's full potential - and, in fact, with energy queueing, can even do better than what's in the spreadsheet - it's quite possibly worthwhile to use Ashtongue over Shard. On an interrupted fight (like Felmyst), it probably makes more sense to use Shard.

Relative to WSC: my guess here is that WSC is going to be better on low-armor bosses (Felmyst) while Shard will be better on high-armor bosses. Also note that the relative cooldown lengths can make a difference; for instance, on Felmyst, you will often be able to get two full uptime periods during a ground phase (at least, with good trinket management you can); Shard will often clip the second proc when Felmyst takes off. Thus I would probably use WSC.

I guess my point here is that there's a big ol' grey area around what's best with these trinkets in this circumstance. There exist fights where each will be optimal; it just takes some thought to figure out which fights each excels on. If I had to pick one trinket to use all the time with 16 other Expertise, I'd probably pick Shard. But in reality, I'd throw it in my bag next to the other two and pull out which was appropriate for each fight.
#2282SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1dazed420
The source of my question was the most recent spreadsheet. Perhaps it has issues or perhaps I made a mistake but considering that I have best in slot for all but one ring and glaives, with pre sunwell gear, madness shows a DPS increase over WSC. The spreadsheet also does show a 1 DPS increase over madness using Ashtongue.

I have one final situtation to put out there. Based on having the gear I just made mention too, would you consider replacing the cursed vision with tier 6 helm to keep the 4 piece bonus to be able to wear the gloves of immortal dusk until one is able to win the bracers or belt or just wait? This question is based on trying to push for max dmg to get that first Brut kill, not asking for strats.

I've been pounding this in my head for a while and did the spreadsheet, says by doing this I end up with a 8.5 DPS increase, but thats if everything is optimal and nothing is messed up. Granted if I just waited till I got bracers I am look at getting close to a 40 DPS increase based on buffed stats. Materials for the gear is not an issue nor is access to the pattern, I ask because I have a hard time thinking that there will really be a 8.5 dps increase with buffed stats. Thanks
#2283SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Aldriana
Sounds right to me. I mean, fundamentally, you have 3 set pieces and 2 nonset pieces that are best in slot, and you're looking at which slot loses less DPS by dropping from the nonset piece to the corresponding set piece... and as I recall, Immortal Dusk is a larger upgrade over T6 gloves than Cursed Vision is over T6 helm. Thus, my instinct would be that Immortal Dusk + T6 helm > Cursed Vision + T6 gloves.

Now, that said: I personally plan to wait a bit on getting the crafted gloves (and not only because my guild doesn't have the pattern yet), purely because: as upgrades in Sunwell go, the gloves are a relatively small one, and Sunmotes are in incredibly high demand right now; hence, it seems to make more sense to me to let other people who can get larger upgrades (and potentially not have to revert to an inferior item in another slot) get the upgrades first, and pick this one up for myself a bit further down the road. But if your guild has the sunmotes available now, it would be a DPS upgrade.
#2284SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Batstub
New badge weapons

Im currently using talon and merc quickblade, with the new badge weaps comming out anyone think that the fists or daggers would be better or should i just stick with swords? Help meh plz!
#2285SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Xaoc
Use one of the the many spreadsheets available to you, input your gear, and see which one provides a bigger benefit.
#2286SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Hattori Hanzo
Originally Posted by Batstub View Post
Im currently using talon and merc quickblade, with the new badge weaps comming out anyone think that the fists or daggers would be better or should i just stick with swords? Help meh plz!
Point number 5 of this post has all of your answers.
#2287SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Batstub
Spreadsheet will give an obvious answer. 103 dps weap > 96 dps weap. Im asking in reference mainly swords vs fists or possible daggers. I was daggers forever including pre-bc but have never been fist spec. Based on also that the new fists have haste vs the meaty crits that backstab can deliver, or will the sword spec procs still outwiegh that? ty


More or less, what have others experienced...
#2288SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Aldriana
Remarkably enough, the spreadsheets are smart enough to tell the difference between different weapon types and address this exact sort of question. Any answer that anyone else is going to give is either going to be A) spreadsheet based or B) speculation and heresay; as such, why not cut out the middle man and use the spreadsheet yourself?

Alternately, you could just read the last 5 pages or so and note that the fists vs swords question has been addressed at least twice in the past week.
#2289SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Hattori Hanzo
Originally Posted by Batstub View Post
Spreadsheet will give an obvious answer. 103 dps weap > 96 dps weap. Im asking in reference mainly swords vs fists or possible daggers. I was daggers forever including pre-bc but have never been fist spec. Based on also that the new fists have haste vs the meaty crits that backstab can deliver, or will the sword spec procs still outwiegh that? ty
Umm, since the DPS spreadsheet takes specs, haste, hit, etc, etc, etc into account, you obviously didn't take the time to actually use it.

Stop expecting someone else to do your work for you, Mr. Too-lazy #24,3523.
#2290SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Batstub
Rather then bashin plz read ty. And yes i did it, just asking for ppl who have possibly used these weapons in game on the ptr.
#2291SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Mideci
"Rather then bashin plz read ty."

Honestly, take your own advice.
#2292SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
 Hattori Hanzo
Originally Posted by Batstub View Post
Rather then bashin plz read ty. And yes i did it, just asking for ppl who have possibly used these weapons in game on the ptr.
Just do your own work. Any reviews of these weaps on the PTR would be completely anecdotal since anything that delivers damage numbers was screwed by the 2.4 combat log re-write. Anecdotes aren't evidence and are viewed very sceptically in general on EJ, especially in the Class Mechanics forums.

(Sorry for the backseat moderation guys.)

Last edited by Hattori Hanzo : 04/03/08 at 5:46 PM. Reason: Less XI
#2293SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Macblade
Never mind.
#2294SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1gexstar
Hey guys,
i always thought that the Band of the Eternal Champion is the 2nd best Ring ingame before Sunwell.
Thats what Shadowpanther for example showed for the last few weeks/months...
Today i noticed that they put it down on the list, and now its worse than Signet of Primal Wrath or Ring of Deceitful Intent.
Did they nerv the proc or something ? Or did they just calculate it wrong ?
#2295SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Vulajin
Originally Posted by gexstar View Post
Hey guys,
i always thought that the Band of the Eternal Champion is the 2nd best Ring ingame before Sunwell.
Thats what Shadowpanther for example showed for the last few weeks/months...
Today i noticed that they put it down on the list, and now its worse than Signet of Primal Wrath or Ring of Deceitful Intent.
Did they nerv the proc or something ? Or did they just calculate it wrong ?
It was always pretty mediocre.
#2296SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Noxe
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
The crossbow comes in behind Blade of Life's Inevitability, at least for me; it's DPS is comparable, and it loses the stamina. And the Thori'dal thing has been mentioned, as any rogue that takes it over a hunter deserves to be shot. In a couple months, when your hunters have it, it's worth thinking about picking one up - but for the moment, it may be best in slot but not in a way that's actually useful.
That's correct [Blade of Life's Inevitability] is better than [Crossbow of Relentless Strikes].

I got a question for you Aldriana about [Vengeful Gladiator's Right Ripper] since you've mentioned that both fists are capable of higher dps than Blade of Infamy but as far as i can see gladiator's one is not and difference between Blade of Infamy and [Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality] is nearly none. The advantage of weapon EP is reduced by lack of 4 points in Vile Poisons. So if i'm correct the right order should be badge reward fist -> blade of infamy -> s3 fist.

link http://elitistjerks.com/692841-post2170.html
#2297SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Mideci
Originally Posted by gexstar View Post
Hey guys,
i always thought that the Band of the Eternal Champion is the 2nd best Ring ingame before Sunwell.
Thats what Shadowpanther for example showed for the last few weeks/months...
Today i noticed that they put it down on the list, and now its worse than Signet of Primal Wrath or Ring of Deceitful Intent.
Did they nerv the proc or something ? Or did they just calculate it wrong ?
Shadowpanther has been wrong for months. The Illidan ring, the Ring of Deceitful Intent and Primal Wrath have long been better.

The proc hasn't been changed, just the accuracy of the chart.
#2298SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Ashersky
Originally Posted by Noxe View Post
To be fair, using the EP values in the first post, the crossbow wins by a small amount at all three tier levels if you don't have +10 hit gems. But we're talking 1-5 EP in any case--not worth 150 badges if you have/will get the Blade.
#2299SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Vulajin
Originally Posted by Ashersky View Post
To be fair, using the EP values in the first post, the crossbow wins by a small amount at all three tier levels if you don't have +10 hit gems. But we're talking 1-5 EP in any case--not worth 150 badges if you have/will get the Blade.
If you're getting [Blade of Life's Inevitability], you have 10 hit gems.
#2300SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Roefyll
Originally Posted by Roefyll View Post
Yes, with my current gearset I estimated it would have to have a 1.3 PPM to be a sidegrade from my current gear. At >5 PPM it's an upgrade, so I'm going to use them (after I get them enchanted) until the Heroic badge vendor is stocked on Feathermoon.

I've reopened the WWS if anyone else wants to take a look. This includes grinding the mana wyrms in BEM for the SSO daily, and contains the previously mentioned bandaging etc.
I completely misunderstood PPM mechanics - my WWS proc rates for [Claw of Molten Fury] and [Fist of Molten Fury] were all over the place. The only way to get an accurate baseline proc rate for spreadsheeting purposes will be to remove all haste gear and autoattack something for a few hours.

If anyone thinks that would be useful (IE dontmindme or Aldriana) I'll try sneaking through Dire Maul and wailing on those ghosts this weekend.

Unfortunately I am able to spare relatively little time for WoW so I prefer to use my playtime on things that will improve my raid outcomes.
#2301SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Ribs
To Hit Calculations

Heya folks,

I've been searching the site for the past week or so as there's something that's been picking my interest. I've been working on a spreadsheet of my own, not cause the given ones are here are bad or anything, but cause I feel a need to understand it properly myself. However the thing I keep running into it that my calculations for To Hit come out way below the ones given here. I tried looking it up in the spreadsheets, but cant seem to get to the calcs given, hence my question here.

The problem is this. According to my understanding, every % of toHit makes your To Miss chance drop. Seeing as special attacks need a 9% to make sure they hit (not counting dodge), anything above 9% is purely focused on your white dps. Now assuming your white dps makes up for about 60% of your total dps, one could be tricked into saying that 1% hit increases your dps by a flat .6%. However seeing as the attack table consists of Glancing Blows and Critical Strikes as well, this would be wrong. in fact, Assuming 5% miss, 5% dodge and 30% crit, you're actual normal hits would be around 35% meaning the percentile increase of toHit of your white dps should be more around .21%.

Now you can probably see my base problem. Even if you consider procs from Combat potency, Sword spec and Windfury, this will not make up for the immense difference between .21% from to Hit and say the immense increase you'd get from Weapon Expertise (which ups your yellow dps as well) which probably balances around a full 1% excluding procs. Can someone show me where I'm going wrong here? Why is ToHit scaled so closely to WE on the main page on this thread and in the most spreadsheets I see?

Thanks in advance.
A confused rogue
#2302SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Aldriana
So, first thing is, I think you're misinterpreting the hit table. For the sake of argument, lets say that your usual hit table is something like:

24% glance
30% crit
4% dodge
7% miss
35% hit

Then if you gain 1% hit, it instead becomes:

24% glance
30% crit
4% dodge
6% miss
36% hit

Thus, your expected damage for a hit goes from
.24 * .75 + .3 * 2 + .35 = 1.13x
to
.24 * .75 + .3 * 2 + .36 = 1.14x
which is an increase of about .9% to 60% of your damage, or a raw increase of around .54%, not .21%.

The rest of it is made up by procs; Windfury, for instance, scales quadratically with hit, so if you run with a shaman, the value of hit is increased. Combat potency increases the value of haste. All procs (DST, Mongoose, Poison, etc.) increase the value of hit. And so on.

To be honest, I was surprised by just how good hit was too when I first made my spreadsheet. But after a year of beating on the numbers and raiding to see the results, I'm pretty convinced that hit really is that good.
#2303SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Ribs
which is an increase of about .9% to 60% of your damage, or a raw increase of around .54%, not .21%.
Aye, gotcha. Made a silly thinking mistake there when asking my question. My sheet actually shows me the exact same number so couldnt agree more. Thing is though, with that calculation it shows that crit would actually be of a higher value to your dps (1,06% on pure white dps). Expertise would stay the same (but wins in the end due to yellow damage). So basically +hit wins mostly on the procs then?

I havent picked up Windfury yet in my sheet, but I see I should at least to get a good solid idea. I have taken Combat Potency and Sword Spec in it though and cant say I see an extremely large increase when I add more +hit but maybe this will change when I hammer in WF I'll come back when I have wf calculated properly.
#2304SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Dontmindme
Originally Posted by Ribs View Post
Aye, gotcha. Made a silly thinking mistake there when asking my question. My sheet actually shows me the exact same number so couldnt agree more. Thing is though, with that calculation it shows that crit would actually be of a higher value to your dps (1,06% on pure white dps). Expertise would stay the same (but wins in the end due to yellow damage). So basically +hit wins mostly on the procs then?

I havent picked up Windfury yet in my sheet, but I see I should at least to get a good solid idea. I have taken Combat Potency and Sword Spec in it though and cant say I see an extremely large increase when I add more +hit but maybe this will change when I hammer in WF I'll come back when I have wf calculated properly.
1% crit might very likely be worth more than 1% hit, but it takes 14*82/52 crit rating for 1% compared to 10*82/52 hit rating to 1%. (The 82/52 is the rating conversion from level 60 to 70). So it takes 1.4 times the amount of crit rating for the same % gain.
#2305SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Feist-Mok
Originally Posted by Ribs View Post
Thing is though, with that calculation it shows that crit would actually be of a higher value to your dps (1,06% on pure white dps). Expertise would stay the same (but wins in the end due to yellow damage). So basically +hit wins mostly on the procs then?
That, and the fact that +hit is more cheaply itemized. 1% hit and 1% crit in general, provide roughly equal dps returns, but 1% takes 6 fewer rating points, and thus, 6 points less item budget, while still coming in increments of 8 or 10 from gems. Combine that with it's effect on procs, and yea, +hit is huge.
#2306SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Ribs
K, windfury put in now. I can see the increase to hit sliding in. Decided to put up full raid buffs as well as I was putting in wf. Good stuff and getting closer to the stats given on the main page here, so feels like its making more sense now My agi is still coming out higher than my +hit though, but I havent taken procs into account yet though. I'm a little surprised to see how much influence outside buffs bring to rogue dps though. I mean I know we're basically always in need of more buffs, but to see base dps (after armor red.) go from 1k to 1.5k after raid buffs is just nuts. Interesting to finally make a 'full' calculation though, gives a good insight into one's dps.

As for the rating points, yeah +hit is 'cheaper'. However, I'm more or less trying to get a basic stats per point. So to get a clear view how much does my dps go up per rating point. Nice to have a personal points system based on my current gear for Lootrank and the likes.
#2307SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1koaschten
Ribs, if you feel like playing to see the gains a rogue gets from buffs, grab Aldriana's sheet, make a "Best of" template and compare the dps with and without buffs. You will most probably see a gain of +150% only due to buffs and group synergies.
#2308SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Coffin Burier
This post is classified as DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME.

My first post: http://elitistjerks.com/670402-post1856.html

Aldriana's Conclusions: http://elitistjerks.com/671291-post1866.html

My second post: http://elitistjerks.com/671815-post1880.html

My third post: http://elitistjerks.com/680282-post1971.html

Originally Posted by Myrx View Post
First is completely relative to who you are playing with. What kind of DPS were you doing? Do you have a WWS report? I wouldn't be satisfied yet.

EDIT: I mean, I don't mean to be rude, but your gear is pretty trashy, and the most common misconception I see rogues make is that they think they are good because they can beat the other rogues in Kara. However, keep in mind that as an entry level dungeon anyone can get in to Kara, and those other rogues are very likely terrible. I don't mean to insult you, but do you have armory links of the rogues you are beating, and are they in the same group as you for DPS?
Since my first post, my dps is fairly well increased, I always suggest to any class to take a look at Elitist Jerks (especially to raid mates and rogues), I got some few changes into my equip (+15 agi on hands rather than +26 AP and new Spaulders from the last boss of MT Hero) and still want to compare my dps to yours. Even spreedsheet says that I would increase my dps respeccing Combat Sword, but I still can't understand why the other two rogues that are raiding with me (which are both 20/41/0 Combat Sword) can't still beat me in most encounters (and so for all dps that are raiding with me). Are my PvP items that better than their PvE ones? To check my and thier armory look for:

Indidh, EU Server Hakkar, I Due Dragoni (raid equip includes Boots of Utter Darkness and Bladefist's Breadth trinket)
Wighy, EU Server Hakkar, I Due Dragoni
Aleris, EU Server Hakkar, Neogenesis

The comparison is usually on TK and SSC bosses like Lurker and Void. We're not doing Grull anymore (we only raid three times for a total of 10-11 hours a week).

In your past answears I must have missed some staments about WWS. May it help comparing my dps to yours? If it can help, may you tell me more about it, please? At the moment, I'm building up some numbers taking screenshoots of various Detail Windows from Recount (for single bosses, not overall). Can I link some screens with Imageshack on this forum? If you prefer, I can collect the numbers you need during the next raids.

An example from the last encounter with The Lurker (top three):

Elaerith 528246, 1124,1 dps, 9,6% (warlock destruction/affliction)
Indidh 506909, 756,9 dps, 9,2% (me)
Aleris 504577, 773,2 dps, 9,2% (combat sword)
Wighy died before the end of the encounter (combat sword)

Is my dps higher than what you expected or it is just low the dps of all the other raid members? In our party there were a dudu feral, a marksmanship hunter and all of the three rogues of the raid (including me).

More details about my dps (I also have the Detail Windows for Hemo, Melee, Eviscerate and Energy Gained):

Melee 214365, 42,3%
Hemorrage 120264, 33,6% (34,2% critical hits)
Rupture 57949, 11.4%
Deadly Poison 26912, 5,3%
Istant Poison 14186, 2,8%
Eviscerate 12278, 2,4%
Throw 8526, 1,7%
Garrote 1757, 0,3%

The most interesting thing is the Energy Gained. I found out that, if you add all the energy I save with Hemorrage (5 energy per hit and crit, not dodges and parries) to the Energy Gained, I gain more energy then a Combat Sword rogue with Combat Potency and Relentless Strikes. I gained 1175 energy from Relentless Strikes and saved 940 energy from Hemorrage, against the 1110 energy gained from Combat Potency and the 800 energy gained from Relentless Strikes by Aleris. During this encounter I dind't get any dodge or parry on finishers (in that case I would have gain energy from Quick Recovery).

I'll try to give you the information you will require as soon as possible. Thank you.
#2309SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Jakani
Originally Posted by Coffin Burier View Post
An example from the last encounter with The Lurker (top three):

Elaerith 528246, 1124,1 dps, 9,6% (warlock destruction/affliction)
Indidh 506909, 756,9 dps, 9,2% (me)
Aleris 504577, 773,2 dps, 9,2% (combat sword)
Wighy died before the end of the encounter (combat sword)
Well, I can tell you that for my first lurker kill with nothing but Karazhan gear, I scored 900 DPS.

Your combat rogues are doing something wrong if they're that low - you mentioned [Boots of Utter Darkness] and [Bladefist's Breadth], both of which are inferior to other, easy to get alternatives (notably: [Nyn'jah's Tabi Boots] or [Edgewalker Longboots], and [Bloodlust Brooch] or [Abacus of Violent Odds] or [Hourglass of the Unraveller]).

What's your melee group composition? If you have an enhancement shaman and DPS warrior at least, you should be doing much more DPS. What I'd suggest you try is to run a combat swords build for a raid, play it like it's supposed to be played, and see what you get.

A WWS would help us to see what skills are being used and offers many tools for a more comprehensive breakdown.
#2310SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Vulajin
Originally Posted by Coffin Burier View Post
To check my and thier armory look for:

Indidh, EU Server Hakkar, I Due Dragoni (raid equip includes Boots of Utter Darkness and Bladefist's Breadth trinket)
Wighy, EU Server Hakkar, I Due Dragoni
Aleris, EU Server Hakkar, Neogenesis

...

An example from the last encounter with The Lurker (top three):

Elaerith 528246, 1124,1 dps, 9,6% (warlock destruction/affliction)
Indidh 506909, 756,9 dps, 9,2% (me)
Aleris 504577, 773,2 dps, 9,2% (combat sword)
Wighy died before the end of the encounter (combat sword)
Aleris is using a 1.6 speed main hand ([Blazefury]). His instant attack DPS is crippled because the damage range on that thing is completely terrible. He needs an actual main hand. All of you have a bit too much PvP gear for my liking, but I'm not going to do a full audit. Suffice it to say that comparing yourself against other rogues in your raid group simply isn't sufficient, because you cannot know if they are performing at the same level as you (for better or worse), nor whether they even know what they're doing (in your case, it looks like they don't).

Short answer for you is this: your spec is inferior. We know it, and the only reason you don't know it is because you seem to be a little bit stubborn about it. That's fine, no one can force you to play a particular way, but you're simply not going to get the same DPS as 30/0/31 that you will as 20/41/0. Look at it this way: Seal Fate provides a very similar effect to Combat Potency, which is to enable better cycles (i.e. more CP per time, therefore more finishers). Therefore, a 30/0/31 build is very similar to a 0/40/21 build, for all intents and purposes. The difference is that Seal Fate simply provides more combo points per time, whereas Combat Potency provides more energy, which converts into both extra damage and extra combo points. Thus, 30/0/31 will most likely be inferior to 0/40/21 (especially given the other DPS talents lost). At the same time, we have very accurately modeled the DPS of 0/40/21, and we know that it's inferior to 11/28/22, which in turn is inferior to 20/41/0. Thus, you can see that 30/0/31 will most certainly be inferior to 20/41/0.
#2311SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Banja
Re: SF/Potentcy

Vula I'd be interested in seeing your opinion on my spec based on your thoughts that potentcy > SF.

I tried switching to potency a while back but thought that it lowered my DPS-please note that I am just beginning to get into theory crafting and actually doing the math.

The posts on this board have been mind blowing and I'm already incredibly excited to get home (visitng a friend atm) and reenchant my gloves and resocket a few gems.
#2312SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Coffin Burier
Originally Posted by Vulajin View Post
Short answer for you is this: your spec is inferior.
No doubt it is inferior, even spreedsheet says that if I change spec (with the same identical equip, but never considering the Hemo Debuff). I would like to see what's the real difference in dps and total damage made by an experienced combat sword rogue on a raid boss (possibly with the same level of itemization). As mentioned before, in this encounter there was just a feral druid and a marksmanship hunter in the party (we have only one shaman in our guild and he is resto). I've always been playing this spec, I like to play in PvP and consider it a nice trade off between PvE and PvP. Last, but not least, I like to be different and play my own way (and for the same reason I don't like to see any other rogue with my same spec).

Maybe I'm just a good player with the wrong spec.

I'm working out to compare the different specs that you mentioned before, but it is not that simple. Hemo + Seal Fate is really not like Hemo + Combat Potency... you're missing all the assassination talents that usually are in every PvE spec. Relentless Strikes really makes the difference in a Seal Fate build. Spreedsheet says that Seal Fate + Hemo is better than Combat Potency + Hemo, but still worse than the Three Spec Build and then than Combat Sword. The energy gained from Relentless Strikes is lower than a Combat Potency build, but allows so save energy with Hemo, like the Seal Fate + Hemo Build. What really makes the difference is Improved SnD and Dual Wield Specialization (energy gained, extra hemos and extra finishers can't replace these two talents). Combat Potency makes the difference against the Three Spec Build.
#2313SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1pib
Hey I am a sword spec rouge our guild just started to enter bt. I have a shard of contempt and I am still under the expertise cap. If i pick up a ssc belt ill go over the expertise cap. I have been reading up somewhat on expertise and lots of people/threads make me wonder if i should pick it up. Also don't want to take it over other rogues that might need it more then me.
#2314SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1saedo
Originally Posted by pib View Post
Hey I am a sword spec rouge our guild just started to enter bt. I have a shard of contempt and I am still under the expertise cap. If i pick up a ssc belt ill go over the expertise cap. I have been reading up somewhat on expertise and lots of people/threads make me wonder if i should pick it up. Also don't want to take it over other rogues that might need it more then me.
It is the best belt til Sunwell T6 one. After that it's kinda just a personal preference on how much that's worth to you. Guess you can download a spreadsheet, think only the DPS Spreadsheet has that trinket in it currently. Determine how much of an upgrade the belt is, maybe what combo of trinkets you got that would be better suited with that belt. Decide how much that's worth to you. Maybe even plug your other rogue's gear into the spreadsheet and see how much of an upgrade it is for them. Decide if it's worth taking it over them or not.
#2315SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1drumbum
Originally Posted by Coffin Burier View Post
The most interesting thing is the Energy Gained. I found out that, if you add all the energy I save with Hemorrage (5 energy per hit and crit, not dodges and parries) to the Energy Gained, I gain more energy then a Combat Sword rogue with Combat Potency and Relentless Strikes. I gained 1175 energy from Relentless Strikes and saved 940 energy from Hemorrage, against the 1110 energy gained from Combat Potency and the 800 energy gained from Relentless Strikes by Aleris. During this encounter I dind't get any dodge or parry on finishers (in that case I would have gain energy from Quick Recovery).
You describe Hemo as "saving" you 5 energy compared to Sinister Strike, but this is a flawed perspective because these two attacks do not do the same amount of damage. In fact, a fully talented Sinister Strike (i.e. with Aggression and Surprise Attacks) will do better damage per energy than Hemo will. Yes, faster combo point generation is a good thing, but if you deal less damage to acquire those combo points, then you've basically just completely canceled out any benefit you were trying to gain by doing so.

Regardless, you are bringing in anecdotal evidence again, which simply isn't a valid way to compare two specs. And the difference in damage is a lot bigger than you want to admit.
#2316SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1aethidd
Hey, I was wondering if anyone could offer me any insight as to a dilema I have been pondering recently. I am currently getting to the progress stage that I am going to be replacing my T4 set 2 bonus very soon but I'm not sure exactly what piece of gear would be worth loosing the 2 set bonus for.

Armoury Link

As you can see I'm using the T4 chest and head and I'm having a hard time giving them up. Can anyone suggest to me any helms of chest they think is worth giving up the bonus for? I am thinking the new badge reward chest is going to seal the deal but does anyone else have any other suggestions?
#2317SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1pib
pib

the chest from ssc is amazing and if you want to replace the head go the one off of za is pretty nice
#2318SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1saedo
Originally Posted by aethidd View Post
As you can see I'm using the T4 chest and head and I'm having a hard time giving them up. Can anyone suggest to me any helms of chest they think is worth giving up the bonus for? I am thinking the new badge reward chest is going to seal the deal but does anyone else have any other suggestions?
Yea the badge reward chest will probably last in til BT/Hyjal. As for helms, not much beyond the T4/T5/T6 path upgrade cept the Illidan helm. Unless you take up Eng which ranks around T5 for the 1st helm, T6ish for the 2nd one. I think the S3 arena helm ranks up there near T5ish as well.
#2319SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1mmaker
Originally Posted by Coffin Burier View Post

Maybe I'm just a good player with the wrong spec.
Yes this is most likely the case. If you competing against a rogue that using blazefury in mh, that pretty much says everything. Easiest for you to see the different in dps between specs is to respecc yourself to combat and use combat gear. Then look at the WWS and compare.
#2320SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Frostblood
Expertise?

Ehm...maybe a newb question, but if "+hit" reduces the chances u miss, when u hit "hit cap" why would ya still need the expertise? Can a boss still dodge/parry ya when u are "hit cap"-ed? Cos i'm freaking annoyed about how insistently ppl are running MgT for that freaking trinket.Btw, i'm hit cap-ed.
#2321SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1aethidd
Being dodged and you missing are two completly different things, there for you need diffrent stats to counter each one.
#2322SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Acyrith
Originally Posted by Frostblood View Post
Ehm...maybe a newb question, but if "+hit" reduces the chances u miss, when u hit "hit cap" why would ya still need the expertise? Can a boss still dodge/parry ya when u are "hit cap"-ed? Cos i'm freaking annoyed about how insistently ppl are running MgT for that freaking trinket.Btw, i'm hit cap-ed.
A "miss" is not the same as a "dodge" or "parry". Hit gear reduces the chance of you seeing a miss, whereas expertise gear will reduce the chance that the target dodges or parries.

So yes, a boss can still dodge or parry when you are hit capped because hit does nothing at all to negate dodges and parries.
#2323SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1katheavus
Two questions for you guys...


Can instant poison crit?


Does poison damage benefit from the murder talent?
#2324SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Xaoc
Yes and it should.
#2325SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1drumbum
Instant poison can crit, but only if your spell crit chance is greater than zero. Against any mob/player at or above level 70, your spell crit should be 0% so it won't ever crit, except if you have for example the Moonkin aura. Also, when attacking targets below your level, you gain a small amount of spell crit because their defense is lower than your weapon skill, so it's possible to crit against mobs below level 70 even if you have 0% spell crit chance.

And yes, poisons benefit from Murder.
#2326SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Coffin Burier
Originally Posted by mmaker View Post
Easiest for you to see the different in dps between specs is to respecc yourself to combat and use combat gear. Then look at the WWS and compare.
You're really tempting me... I've kept some nice combat gear like Violet Signet Exalted, Abacus of Violet Odds and some nice +hit items. I'm sure I wouldn't resocket anything, cos I still love to play 31/0/30, but I'm just that curious to burst my dps far over all the other raid members to show them what a rogue is capable of. Before respeccing I'd like to know some simple things about Combat Sword spec.

Do Sword Specialization talents procs from off hand hits? Our class leader says it doesn't.

I'm using a sword in my main hand and a dagger in my off hand. Should I spend 5/5 points in Sword Specialization? Should I spend 5/5 points in dagger specialization as well?

Assuming I can choose between two weapons with the same amount of dps and that I'm specced Combat Sword, is a faster off hand weapon (a dagger 1.4) worth not using a sword (which is 1.5) due to the increase in Combat Potency procs?

Finally, could you reming me the best cycle to be used with a Combat Sword spec, please?

Thank you.

P.S.
I was forgot! Yes, Istant Poison can crit. I didn't reset Recount for quite a long time and I've see I've critted once. It was a 0,1% of all the Istant Poison damage.
#2327SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1koaschten
1. Sword-spec can proc from any weapon hand that is holding a sword.
2. You don't use a dagger with sword-spec.
3. Use the sheets available in the OP to determine the optimal cycle for your gear.
#2328SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1aleyro
Originally Posted by Coffin Burier View Post
Do Sword Specialization talents procs from off hand hits? Our class leader says it doesn't.
Yes. Your class leader is wrong. In fact, this is kinda the whole point of sword specialization- your very fast OH sword procs the specialization, and you get a free MH hit as a result.

Originally Posted by Coffin Burier View Post
I'm using a sword in my main hand and a dagger in my off hand. Should I spend 5/5 points in Sword Specialization? Should I spend 5/5 points in dagger specialization as well?
Follow the instructions in the first post in regards to weapon selection, and spec accordingly. Get the best MH you can get, and specialize accordingly. If you can get a fast OH sword, make sure to get sword spec. If the best MH you can get is a mace or fist, and you can get a fast OH sword, spec both. combat dagger/sword is just weird.

Originally Posted by Coffin Burier View Post
Assuming I can choose between two weapons with the same amount of dps and that I'm specced Combat Sword, is a faster off hand weapon (a dagger 1.4) worth not using a sword (which is 1.5) due to the increase in Combat Potency procs?
Once again, this is discussed in depth in the first post. Short version: use the fastest OH you can get your hands on. If the fastest OH you can get your hands on happens to be a sword, make sure your build has sword specialization in it.

Originally Posted by Coffin Burier View Post
Finally, could you reming me the best cycle to be used with a Combat Sword spec, please?
The spreadsheet will give you a detailed rotation based on your *exact* gear and spec. A ton of work went into that spreadsheet so that you can answer this question yourself.
#2329SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Feist-Mok
Originally Posted by aleyro View Post
Once again, this is discussed in depth in the first post. Short version: use the fastest OH you can get your hands on. If the fastest OH you can get your hands on happens to be a sword, make sure your build has sword specialization in it.
This is not exactly correct. If it were, we'd all be using daggers because they come in a 1.3 and 1.4 variety far more often than swords, fists or maces.

Rather, you should use the BEST (not fastest) weapon of a 'fast' speed that you can get for your offhand. "fast" can be defined as 1.5 or faster. Weapon speed beyond 1.5 is valuable, but often not as valuable as superior DPS, superior stats, or a superior weapon class, (i.e. swords being better than just about anything to such a degree that they can often outclass significantly higher level pieces of other types).
#2330SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1drumbum
Originally Posted by aleyro View Post
Once again, this is discussed in depth in the first post. Short version: use the fastest OH you can get your hands on. If the fastest OH you can get your hands on happens to be a sword, make sure your build has sword specialization in it.
That's not true. If you have access to a 1.4-speed dagger and a 1.5-speed sword of approximately the same DPS, the sword will virtually always be quite a bit better. If your best offhand dagger is much better than your best offhand sword, then sure, you should use it -- but only until you can upgrade to a sword.
#2331SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Vulajin
I've got a new tidbit about this in the forthcoming TTT version of this post, but suffice it to say for now that you can assign offhand swords a 10 weapon DPS boost over other weapon types (similar to what the post already recommends you do for weapon speed), provided that your main hand weapon isn't a dagger.
#2332SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Amante
Set Bonuses

I noticed there is no longer a section on set bonuses in the original post. Any particular reason it was removed? Has the general opinion on the usefulness of certain set bonuses changed? I know the T6 ones are always awesome, of course.

On that note, I could use a little advice: just how long is it worth hanging onto the T4 2pc bonus? I just barely am (only two pieces of T4, gloves and pants), and with all the upgrades coming my way from the new 2.4 stuff and from now being in a pretty good BT / Hyjal guild, I'm left to wonder what to replace with badge gear and drops and whether or not to keep the T4 set bonus around as long as possible but maybe lose out on upgradingg to some individually powerful pieces (the Scryers' Retainer Trousers in particular are looking attractive).

Any thoughts?
#2333SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Vulajin
I felt the set bonus section was a bit unnecessary, since it's sort of obvious which set bonuses are good and which aren't. Additionally, I didn't want to encourage people to unnecessarily hang onto inferior pieces just because a set bonus was considered to be good. Far too many people hold onto T4 2pc far longer than is really prudent. T4 2pc is a nice bonus, but in general pretty highly overrated. Consult the Gear Spreadsheet for an EP valuation of the bonus to know exactly what you're giving up.
#2334SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Yavon
Looking for advice on rotation (yes I have spreadsheet) and skill usage to increase dps on boss fights. Any suggestions?
Currently I am using 3s/5r as my rotation. Waiting until most of my procs are up (because I don't use any /use trinkets (also using exalted neck from SSO faction Aldor type.) And using BF in one set of procs and then AR in another when said buffs are up again.

Should I use Haste Potions with BF? or save for AR?

Anything else I am missing guys?
#2335SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Trishnakovic
Originally Posted by Yavon View Post
Looking for advice on rotation (yes I have spreadsheet) and skill usage to increase dps on boss fights. Any suggestions?
Your cycle depends on your gear and buffs, so it's kind of hard to reply to this question with you not giving an Armory link :p
Anyway, I'd say rely on the spreadsheet, if you can substain the recommended cycle.

Originally Posted by Yavon View Post
Currently I am using 3s/5r as my rotation. Waiting until most of my procs are up (because I don't use any /use trinkets (also using exalted neck from SSO faction Aldor type.) And using BF in one set of procs and then AR in another when said buffs are up again.

Should I use Haste Potions with BF? or save for AR?

Anything else I am missing guys?
You should note how buffs stack. Haste Potions and Blade Flurry are both Haste buffs and thus stack additive, meaning that 1 Haste will always provide the same amount of DPS increase no matter how much Haste is already stacked up. In terms of stacking, it does not matter if you use Haste Potions and BF at the same time or not. (Though you're very likely to do so since they both have a 2 minute cooldown).
On the other hand Haste and Attack Power, for example, stack multiplicatively, meaning that you want to use both buffs at the same time.

Generally speaking, it's a good idea to use AR/BF etc. once Sunder Armor has been applied five times, CoR/FF are up and you're not threat capped. If waiting for procs is an option depends, on the circumstances of the fight.
On an imaginary encounter which lasts exactley 6 minutes and 15 seconds, you try to throw Haste Pots and BF as soon as possible to be able to use them three times.
If you're fighting, say Felmyst, on the other hand (which stays on the ground for about a minute, then flies around for about two minutes), you can very well wait for a WSC proc to launch your cooldowns, since BF/Haste Potions are going to be ready anyway once she lands.
Hope this helps a bit.
#2336SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1drumbum
Originally Posted by Trishnakovic View Post
You should note how buffs stack. Haste Potions and Blade Flurry are both Haste buffs and thus stack additive, meaning that 1 Haste will always provide the same amount of DPS increase no matter how much Haste is already stacked up. In terms of stacking, it does not matter if you use Haste Potions and BF at the same time or not. (Though you're very likely to do so since they both have a 2 minute cooldown).
On the other hand Haste and Attack Power, for example, stack multiplicatively, meaning that you want to use both buffs at the same time.
This is false. Since Blade Flurry is a percentage-based haste effect, and not a haste rating effect, it *IS* beneficial to stack it with other haste effects. While two haste rating effects are additive with one another, haste rating effects and percentage-based haste effects are still in fact multiplicative with one another. Therefore, it is definitely in your interest to use Blade Flurry at the same time as haste pots, especially considering it's easy to do since they have the same cooldown. It is also wise to time them to be used with Heroism/Bloodlust and also with Drums of Battle.

On the other hand, Adrenaline Rush is (mostly) orthogonal to haste effects, so you can time AR to be used at a different time. However, there are some second-order benefits by stacking them, such as AR increasing your chance to proc Mongoose for the duration, which would complement the haste effects. However, if you get more energy than you can consume (due to very high Combat Potency proc rate while stacking the haste effects), then it's obviously better to separate the two.
#2337SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Trishnakovic
Are you sure about the percentage based increase with BF? I was under the impression that BF on level 70 works like 315 Haste Rating, but I've never done any testing on this, so I might very well be wrong.

Edit: I just did some testing with a Haste Potion and BF and as it turns out I was wrong. I sincerely apologise for spreading misinformation.

Last edited by Trishnakovic : 04/06/08 at 7:34 PM.
#2338SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Sneakiest
I'm pretty sure self-buffed not-rating based haste effects are multiplicative. Your weapon speed is generally SnD * BF * Haste rating. All haste rating effects, be it passive from gear, DST proc, other anything else are additive but they multiply with the other two buffs.

Last edited by Sneakiest : 04/06/08 at 7:46 PM.
#2339SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Kammy
Ok
I have 6/8 t6, with 307 hit rating unbuffed and 10 expertise from talents.

I have been using a rotation of 3s/5r and it works well, but i can't help notice since doing brutallus and really being able to focus on my dps that the up time of my SnD and Rupture relys heavily on how many relentless strikes procs i have coupled with mongoose procs and such.

The DPS spreadsheets suggest 4s/5r and it seems slightly more stable, but i was wondering if anyone has found a different cycle that can keep rupture up even more, as even with 4s/5r there is downtime of rupture of an average of 2-3 seconds.

Any input would be appreciated.
#2340SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Aldriana
The thing to keep in mind is that Rupture is a relatively small part of your damage. Even if it's up absolutely all the time, it only accounts for about 6% of your total DPS at that gear level; thus, worrying about Rupture uptime, per se, doesn't tend to be a productive endeavor. Rupture is a contributer to damage, and unlike, say, SnD, it's not such a large contributor that the optimal cycle must have 100% uptime. It adds damage, other things add damage, and it's just a question of what adds the most damage; and conventional wisdom for most rogues at and around your gear level is that 4s5r is the way to go.
#2341SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Coffin Burier
Originally Posted by aleyro View Post
Once again, this is discussed in depth in the first post. Short version: use the fastest OH you can get your hands on. If the fastest OH you can get your hands on happens to be a sword, make sure your build has sword specialization in it.


The spreadsheet will give you a detailed rotation based on your *exact* gear and spec. A ton of work went into that spreadsheet so that you can answer this question yourself.
Ok. I was asking so becouse of an error I made changing from Gladiator Shiv to Gladiator Shanker instead of Gladiator Quickblade. I'm also thinking about which weapon would suit better when upgrading to Veangeful Gladiator Weapons (can't get over 1837 rating -_-).

I didn't know that the cicle was actually calcurated buy the spreedsheet... I just thought it was static from spec to spec. With my combat gear and one more +hit gem, it says I should use 1s/5r. In the AEP Agility is still better then Hit Rating, but worse than Expertise. I'll wait untile I can get the Shard of Contempt.
#2342SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Left
Originally Posted by Kammy View Post
Ok
I have 6/8 t6, with 307 hit rating unbuffed and 10 expertise from talents.

I have been using a rotation of 3s/5r and it works well, but i can't help notice since doing brutallus and really being able to focus on my dps that the up time of my SnD and Rupture relys heavily on how many relentless strikes procs i have coupled with mongoose procs and such.

The DPS spreadsheets suggest 4s/5r and it seems slightly more stable, but i was wondering if anyone has found a different cycle that can keep rupture up even more, as even with 4s/5r there is downtime of rupture of an average of 2-3 seconds.

Any input would be appreciated.
One thing to remember about 3s/5r or 4s/5r is this: the spreadsheets are using an averaged energy model. 4s/5r, for example, will have your "4s" costing 5 energy, which it does (on average). The problem is that real cycles aren't average. 4/5 of the time, you get 25 energy back, 1/5 of the time, you get none. Thus, 4 pt. SnD costs 0 energy 4/5 of the time and 25 energy 1/5 of the time.

If you are running a very tight cycle (always refreshing SnD right at the very last second), then 1/5 of the time you'll lose out on 25 energy and it's likely that SnD will drop. Thus, while the average might point you to 3s/5r or 4s/5r, you may get better mileage out of 5s/5r because it is better able to mitigate those unlucky situations. (At 5s/5r, you are guaranteed to recover your 25 energy).

In general, I tend to loosen my cycle 1 CP from whatever is recommended, and if I need to use Eviscerate for any reason (quite rare anymore) I loosen it one more point. IE, I have 2pT4 and a recommended cycle of 1s/5r, but I run 2s/5r just to be safe. Sometimes the safety factor makes up for the fact that averages aren't average in real life. Just something to think about.
#2343SourcePosted on <=2.0.0 Aldriana
On the one hand it's true that the sheet uses averaged energy, which complicates cycles somewhat; on the other hand, it's also true that it doesn't have any sort of model for energy queuing, which balances that out to some effect. Now, it's certainly true that you can't maintain a cycle *shorter* than what the spreadsheet says, and even a cycle just slightly above the theoretical cycle may be quite challenging... but I think going up a full cycle point might be a bit overkill. In terms of particulars: if the spreadsheet recommends 3.1, you certainly can't do 3; and even if it recommends 2.8, 3 will be pretty hard and thus not necessarily desirable. But if it recommends 3.3, you certainly should be able to do 4 without a problem. I'd say a good rule of thumb would be to add half a point to the cycle, and then round up - so 2.7 becomes 2.7+.5 = 3.2, rounds to 4, and 3.3 becomes 3.3 + .5 = 3.8, which also rounds to 4.

The slight exception to this is 2/5 T4 cycles; 1s5r is actually not a particularly tight cycle with the set bonus, so my inclination would be to try 1s5r initially and only go up if you notice regular issues with SnD dropping.

Of course, it should also be remembered that as gear improves, the DPS loss from lengthening your cycle drops; for most T6 rogues, the difference between 4s5r and 5s5r is on the order of .1% of your total DPS, and, as such, is not a large concern under most circumstances. Thus, lengthening for a bit more ease of use/safety margin is not a horrible decision.
#2344SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Maconi
Something that has confused me for quite some time is how Sword Spec. actually works. Obviously the tooltip says it grants an extra attack, but which weapon actually gains that attack (the offhand or mainhand). Then does the extra swings in turn cause the mainhand to hit more often than the offhand? (reason that would matter, is determining which hand to apply the poisons to)

Also about the CP discussion, I find if I don't stick to 5s/5r I lose SnD quite often. Combat Potency just doesn't proc often enough for the lower rotations (at least at my gear level, T4).

Also with the new badge gear coming out (the new fists for combat rogues specifically) is the old "Fist/Sword spec" obsolete? Using the spreadsheets I've found with most gear under T6 that using both fists as pure "Fist Spec" turns out more DPS than trying to keep an offhand sword.

Last edited by Maconi : Yesterday at 3:31 PM.
#2345SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Raav
Originally Posted by Maconi View Post
Something that has confused me for quite some time is how Sword Spec. actually works. Obviously the tooltip says it grants an extra attack, but which weapon actually gains that attack (the offhand or mainhand). Then does the extra swings in turn cause the mainhand to hit more often than the offhand? (reason that would matter, is determining which hand to apply the poisons to)

Also about the CP discussion, I find if I don't stick to 5s/5r I lose SnD quite often. Combat Potency just doesn't proc often enough for the lower rotations (at least at my gear level, T4).

Also with the new badge gear coming out (the new fists for combat rogues specifically) is the old "Fist/Sword spec" obsolete? Using the spreadsheets I've found with most gear under T6 that using both fists as pure "Fist Spec" turns out more DPS than trying to keep an offhand sword.
This has been discussed in the thread a number of times, but the MH is the hand that gains the extra attack, regardless of which hand triggered sword spec. I'm not sure if this actually causes the mainhand to hit more than the offhand, but the generally accepted poison setup is IP/DP without windfury, or just DP offhand with windfury.

As for the badge gear, I wouldn't say that Fist/Sword is obsolete, it's just both badge Fists are better right now unless you have a T6+ sword. Somewhere earlier in the thread (or maybe one of the spreadsheet threads) someone laid out the cases in which both badge fists would be superior to badge fist MH and sword OH (or sword MH/sword OH), but I don't remember where it is. You may be able to find it via search though.
#2346SourcePosted on <=2.0.0saedo
Originally Posted by Maconi View Post
Something that has confused me for quite some time is how Sword Spec. actually works. Obviously the tooltip says it grants an extra attack, but which weapon actually gains that attack (the offhand or mainhand). Then does the extra swings in turn cause the mainhand to hit more often than the offhand? (reason that would matter, is determining which hand to apply the poisons to)

Also about the CP discussion, I find if I don't stick to 5s/5r I lose SnD quite often. Combat Potency just doesn't proc often enough for the lower rotations (at least at my gear level, T4).

Also with the new badge gear coming out (the new fists for combat rogues specifically) is the old "Fist/Sword spec" obsolete? Using the spreadsheets I've found with most gear under T6 that using both fists as pure "Fist Spec" turns out more DPS than trying to keep an offhand sword.
Main hand.

5s/5r is basically the safest route to ever take. Check a spreadsheet to tell you which one you should do based on the exact gear you have.

A difference in quality in dps of weapons can make up for the drop in dps from the "lower" weapon spec. So if you don't have access to S2/S3/BT/Hyjal weapons (whatever your cross over point is), badge fists are superior even in offhand. The "fist/sword spec" statements only apply if they're weapons of equal dps value.
#2347SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Evanaescent
Originally Posted by Maconi View Post
Something that has confused me for quite some time is how Sword Spec. actually works. Obviously the tooltip says it grants an extra attack, but which weapon actually gains that attack (the offhand or mainhand). Then does the extra swings in turn cause the mainhand to hit more often than the offhand? (reason that would matter, is determining which hand to apply the poisons to)

Also about the CP discussion, I find if I don't stick to 5s/5r I lose SnD quite often. Combat Potency just doesn't proc often enough for the lower rotations (at least at my gear level, T4).

Also with the new badge gear coming out (the new fists for combat rogues specifically) is the old "Fist/Sword spec" obsolete? Using the spreadsheets I've found with most gear under T6 that using both fists as pure "Fist Spec" turns out more DPS than trying to keep an offhand sword.
1. Sword spec has been proven to generate extra main hand procs, which is a large part of why specs like Fist/Sword work.

2. Even with sword spec you'll want WF MH/Deadly OH

3. CP, obviously, scales with hit. I found personally on my rogue that I could go from a 5/5 rotation to a 1/5 rotation as soon as I got 2/5 T4 (As well as a bit more hit, but the T4 is what really drives that)

4. You'll have to use spreadsheets as you said, but general consensus is that Dual Vanir's is beating most combinations (Except for Glaives and S3, if I recall?) unless you're a human, in which case at least for me I'm getting results of ToA/ S2 >Vanir/S2 > Dual Vanir. At a T4 level the fists are probably your best bet, unless you have access to s3, but please don't take my word for it.
#2348SourcePosted on <=2.0.0saedo
Originally Posted by Evanaescent View Post
4. You'll have to use spreadsheets as you said, but general consensus is that Dual Vanir's is beating most combinations (Except for Glaives and S3, if I recall?) unless you're a human, in which case at least for me I'm getting results of ToA/ S2 >Vanir/S2 > Dual Vanir.
I get the same results as a Night Elf. Even Vanir/Akil'zon > Dual Vanir. Seems S1/Latro's/Kael Sword isn't enough for sword spec to beat it, but maybe humans with em can.
#2349SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Lokar
Quick EP Question

As a long time reader of this thread, I used the EP values to determine some of my gear choices, including making a spreadsheet that did the totals for me...ya know, the basics.

In doing that I noticed recently that the EP values as of late have changed. This is what you have now...
Tier 6 EP | 16/41+4
Strength | 1.00 |
Agility | 2.16 | +13%
Atk. Power | 1.00 |
Hit Rating | 2.40 | +8%
Crit Rating | 1.67 | +6%
Exp. Rating* | 2.74 | +7%
Haste Rating | 2.16 | -2%
Armor Pen. | 0.38 | +19%
Meta Gem | 99.94

And this is what it was a while back
Tier 6 EP | 16/41+4 |
Strength | 1.00 |
Agility | 1.90 |
Atk. Power | 1.00 |
Hit Rating | 2.23 |
Crit Rating | 1.57 |
Exp. Rating* | 2.56 |
Haste Rating | 2.19 |
Armor Pen. | 0.32 |
Meta Gem | 102.17 |

The biggest change seems to be Armor Pen and Agility became a lot more valuable, and haste was devalued respectivly. I searched the thread but was unable to find the logic as to why this is so. Any insight would be appreciated.

*Most interestingly the newer numbers make the LW chest worse than the drop chest in Sunwell.
#2350SourcePosted on <=2.0.0duvar
Quick question about hit rating. And forgive me if this is very noobish but I don't even play a rogue, but I still try to stay up to date on other classes theorycrafting a little. Trying to get up to speed on rogue.

Anyway I know there's a lot of talk about reaching the hit cap, and how it's very important to gem/gear for hit rating. I'm just very skeptical about this compared to something else like crit rating or attack power. let me just throw out some numbers, and maybe someone more versed with this can help me figure out if I'm missing something.

Let's compare a few scenarios, all assuming 5/5 precision.

150 hit rating > 9.5% chance to hit (86.5% chance to hit with main hand, 86.5% chance to hit with offhand)
250 hit rating > 15.9% chance to hit (92.8% chance to hit with main hand, 92.8% chance to hit with offhand)
350 hit rating > 22.2% chance to hit (99.2% chance to hit with main hand, 99.2% chance to hit with offhand)

Ignoring all instant attacks and just looking at dps from auto attacks, let's say your main hand is 91.9 DPS with a speed of 1.8, and your offhand is 87.5 DPS with a speed of 1.8 (using Malchazeen / Emerald Ripper as an example since they're easily accessible Kara daggers).

First situation: you're doing (91.9 + 87.5) * .865 = 155.18 DPS
Second situation: You're doing (91.9 + 87.5) * .928 = 166.48 DPS
Third situation: Your'e doing (91.9 + 87.5) * .992 = 177.96 DPS

Notice that from the first situation to the second, you realized a 7.28% DPS bonus, but going from the second to the third you realized only a 6.89% DPS bonus. So DPS gained from hit rating seems to suffer from diminishing returns, and as such it may not be beneficial to reach the cap, or even get close to the cap.

Anwyay, regarding DPS, going from the first to third situation you increased your DPS by about 14.6%. And this is only for auto attacks, your hit from instant attacks was capped long before the 350 hit rating mark, in fact it was already capped in the first case. So you get NO benefit to your special attacks from all this hit rating, and 14.6% benefit to your auto attacks.

Now, let's say that 200 hit rating came from gems. Assuming you're using all +8 hit gems that's 25 Rigid Dawnstones. If you had used Bright Living Rubies in every slot, you would have had +400 Attack Power, or if you had used Wicked Noble Topaz you would have had 100 crit rating (+4.39%) and 200 attack power. Furthermore, it would affect both instant and auto attacks.

I guess my question is how is it possible that a 14.6% increase ONLY to auto attacks outweights either +400 attack power to ALL attacks, or +4.39% crit and +200 attack power to ALL attacks?


Thanks
#2351SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Shaker
Someone answered that question in either this or the gear sheet thread not very long ago, but the essence of the answer is - rogues gain a LOT more from hit than just white damage. We rely heavily on procs for a lot of effects including many of our best trinkets, Combat Potency, Windfury, and Mongoose.
#2352SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Vulajin
Originally Posted by Lokar View Post
The biggest change seems to be Armor Pen and Agility became a lot more valuable, and haste was devalued respectivly. I searched the thread but was unable to find the logic as to why this is so. Any insight would be appreciated.

*Most interestingly the newer numbers make the LW chest worse than the drop chest in Sunwell.
The changes resulted due to standardization of the buffs used to calculate them. Also, the spreadsheet used to calculate the values has had slight changes over time, resulting in some differences.

As always, EP weights are a rough guideline, got gospel. If you get suspect results from them, confirm with a spreadsheet using your exact gear and buffs.

As a final note, the EP weights are getting yet another pass in the latest version of this post, which will appear in the Theorycrafting Think Tank as the article "Rogue: PvE DPS."

(edit) As a final final note, remember that T6.5 (Sunwell) has significant differences from T6. There will be T6.5-specific weights in the "Rogue: PvE DPS" article.
#2353SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Aldriana
Originally Posted by Lokar View Post
As a long time reader of this thread, I used the EP values to determine some of my gear choices, including making a spreadsheet that did the totals for me...ya know, the basics.

<snip>

The biggest change seems to be Armor Pen and Agility became a lot more valuable, and haste was devalued respectivly. I searched the thread but was unable to find the logic as to why this is so. Any insight would be appreciated.

*Most interestingly the newer numbers make the LW chest worse than the drop chest in Sunwell.
Buffs were changed, bugs corrected, the available level of gear changed - there are plenty of things that could have led to this. I do have to question, however, your assertion that Bladed Chaos catches Sun+Shadow; the two chests are identical except:
1) Sun+Shadow has better color sockets; however, this is irrelevant in practice since there aren't excess blue slots in end-sunwell gear, so the fact that you have to put one in Bladed Chaos doesn't really hurt anything; and
2) Sun+Shadow has 30 hit and 38 haste; Bladed Chaos has 38 crit and 210 ArPen.

Running the numbers on point 2:

Sun+Shadow: 30 * 2.4 + 38 * 2.16 = 154
Bladed Chaos: 210 * .38 + 38 * 1.67 = 143

So while they're very close, I have Sun + Shadow coming out ahead.

Also, those numbers are, as I recall, aimed at BT level loot, and are thus not 100% accurate for Sunwell.

Originally Posted by duvar View Post
Quick question about hit rating. And forgive me if this is very noobish but I don't even play a rogue, but I still try to stay up to date on other classes theorycrafting a little. Trying to get up to speed on rogue.

<snip>

I guess my question is how is it possible that a 14.6% increase ONLY to auto attacks outweights either +400 attack power to ALL attacks, or +4.39% crit and +200 attack power to ALL attacks?
Well, the 100% accurate but totally unhelpful answer to this question is: well, that's what the spreadsheets tell us.

In terms of being a little more productive: it's pretty common for a raiding rogue to have at least, say, a 90 DPS weapon and 3k AP, which works out to a raw weapon DPS of about 300; thus, adding 400 AP (~= 29 raw DPS) is about a 9.5% increase to all of your damage, versus a 14.6% increase to 65% of your damage; 14.6 * 6.5 = 9.5%. So, just based on the simplistic raw damage calculation, they're about even to start with; similarly, 200 AP and 4.39% crit would be 9.2% of your damage, which is inferior. So even neglecting other factors entirely, a simple back-of-the-envelope calculation should be sufficient to indicate that hit is at least comparable.

When you additionally factor in the fact that hit increases your number of procs - poison, Windfury, Combat Potency, Mongoose, etc. - it's certainly very plausible just from napkinmath that hit is better. And, it turns out, when you do the calculations in detail (i.e., with a spreadsheet), you find that hit really does prove to be one of the best individual stats.
#2354SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Lokar
Yeah you're correct about the chests...messed up on gems.
#2355SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1FromTheAshes
Mutilate pve and Envenom

Id like to make a solid case for envenom in pve. ive noticed with the new changes to mutilate my cycles sometimes give me the opportunity for a 3rd finisher in my cycle. slice and dice and rupture both have around 8sec left and ruthlessness proced off the rupture, so i muti and it crits, so im sitting at 4 cp with both rupture and slice and dice with good time on them. My oh is 1.4 speed (1.37 hasted) (1.08 snd) with 2/5 imp poisons so deadly applies pretty much a stack every 3 seconds. ok so back to it, im at 4cp and i envenom, leaving me with a stack of deadly for the mutilate damage bonus and a fat finisher in between rupture and slice and dice. has anyone else noticed this?
#2356SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Aldriana
Without getting into the whole "weaving a third finisher into Mutilate cycles" point (as I have very little experience in the matter, though I understand that there are reasonable alternatives that some people prefer), fundamentally this really just comes down to the eternal question of Envenom vs Eviscerate. And conventional wisdom on this is that in most cases, the loss of DP damage is such that Eviscerate proves better. Now, I know you assert that it stacks up again pretty quickly, but lets look at this a minute:

1) If your attacks are happening every 1.08 seconds, and you have a 34% chance to proc, that's one stack every 3.18 seconds assuming everything hits. In practice, not everything hits; I'd say 90% hit rate is more likely, which takes us to one application every 3.5 seconds.

2) At one stack every 3.5 seconds, that's 17.5 seconds to get the full stack back up, during which you lose, on average, something like 945 poison damage. An Envenom may be bigger than an Eviscerate, but is it 900 damage bigger on average?

Also, of course, there's the fact that "it's worth using one every 3 cycles for Mutilate rogues" is not generally what is meant by "PvE viability".
#2357SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1drumbum
Originally Posted by duvar View Post
First situation: you're doing (91.9 + 87.5) * .865 = 155.18 DPS
Second situation: You're doing (91.9 + 87.5) * .928 = 166.48 DPS
Third situation: Your'e doing (91.9 + 87.5) * .992 = 177.96 DPS

Notice that from the first situation to the second, you realized a 7.28% DPS bonus, but going from the second to the third you realized only a 6.89% DPS bonus. So DPS gained from hit rating seems to suffer from diminishing returns, and as such it may not be beneficial to reach the cap, or even get close to the cap.
I'm not really sure what you're trying to prove here. As you'll notice from your own numbers, both gains yielded a net ~11 DPS increase, so the second gain in hit rating was equally as effective as the first gain. Comparing the damage gained to the damage you already are doing does not provide any useful information. All we care about is the damage gained.

On the other hand, if we compared the damage you would gain from adding a point of hit rating as opposed to the damage you would gain from adding another point of any other stat instead, then you have a useful comparison. And that's what the EP charts do a good job of approximating.
#2358SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Unjulus
I am sporting a 4set T5 at the moment, and my server is right around the bend from completing the Anvil and opening the new Badge items. I'm currently progressing through BT, doing attempts on RoS and was wondering how the [Trousers of the Scryers' Retainer] compare to the Slayer's Legguards. I am asking because 1). Should I break 4set T5 for one piece and possibly swap in another piece (shoulders) and yield more DPS than the 4set? And 2). Should I just wait for the T6 legs and not get the Trousers? Yes, they are a upgrade over the Rogue T5.
#2359SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Vulajin
Originally Posted by Unjulus View Post
I am sporting a 4set T5 at the moment, and my server is right around the bend from completing the Anvil and opening the new Badge items. I'm currently progressing through BT, doing attempts on RoS and was wondering how the [Trousers of the Scryers' Retainer] compare to the Slayer's Legguards. I am asking because 1). Should I break 4set T5 for one piece and possibly swap in another piece (shoulders) and yield more DPS than the 4set? And 2). Should I just wait for the T6 legs and not get the Trousers? Yes, they are a upgrade over the Rogue T5.
I can't imagine that any of the spreadsheets linked on these forums (or, say, in the first post of this thread) would answer this question.
#2360SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Kammy
While browsing MMO-Champion i realised I forgot about an item that will be coming to servers very soon...

[Righteous Weapon Coating]

This at first glances seems to be better than deadly poison?

Obviously it depends on the proc rate etc but what do people think?
#2361SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Aldriana
If you search around a bit, you'll find that it's already been subject to some estimates. I believe the analysis indicates that unless the proc rate is ridiculously high (like, double the uptime of Mongoose) it won't be as good as Deadly Poison. Though it might be worth using in place of Instant Poison if you don't have a shaman and/or are trying to save debuff slots.
#2362SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1glowacks
With regards to hit rating:

When I first came to this forum to gear up my rogue pre-raid content and very little of my gear was even on the spreadsheet (it slowly got there as I did more quests), I had been using Dr Damage as an in-game mod to determine what was the best for my DPS. It was constantly "under"-evaluating hit rating by what was listed here, but as I got better gear I figured out why. Once you hit level 70, your AP is probably very low unless you had the purple LW set ready to put on. Your crit rate probably isn't that great, but given that there's a lot of quest gear with crit rating it's probably decent. Together, that means that your best stat is almost certainly AP. And that's what Dr Damage and the EP calculator on the sheets told me once my gear got good enough.

As good as hit rating is, and as much as people say that it's the number one rogue stat, it's really relative to what else you can get. When trying to talk about this with members of my guild, they agreed that you certainly wouldn't drop 200 AP for 1 hit rating, but failed to grasp the fact that the cut off point could be as high as I was telling them was being calculated via spreadsheets/mods. You must do your own research to determine if the item you're going to get is better and not just use the fact that it has/doesn't have hit rating as a sole basis of comparison. As I was leveling, Dr Damage constantly told me the items with a ton of AP were better even though I lost hit rating and given that I wasn't suffering terribly from strings of misses and was hitting a lot harder, I trusted that it was accurate.

Nevertheless, hit rating is extremely cheap compared to other stats once you have level 70 purples and more things that rely on hitting the target. With AP (and crit%) going higher and higher, it becomes better and better to cap both expertise and hit ratings, and for the former it's basically up to a spreadsheet to tell you when to switch around gear. For the latter though, what hit rating you need for the cap can vary depending on the fight (is most of your DPS on adds that aren't level 73?) and buffs from your raid (Imp FF). You also may need to wear non-DPS gear for resist fights and fights where your best DPS gear doesn't provide you enough HP. That gear will probably have less hit rating, so you should never pitch gear until you are absolutely sure its worse than something else you have in absolutely every conceivable encounter.
#2363SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Oscarvil
Correct me if I'm wrong but Dr Damage doesn't take into hit (and haste) when determining the expected damage of your attacks, but only your AP and crit rate. So it would make sense going from a high hit low AP item to a higher AP lower hit item would give you a damage 'increase'.

Seems to me that using it for calculating the average damage your attacks will land for (unmitigated) is what it's good for, but for proper evaluations of potential dps in a controlled (theoretical best-case) environment is best done with spreadsheets.
#2364SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1liqnitrous
Im curious about the Shard of Contempt.
I hear it is a 5% DPS increase for any rogue. Any thoughts?
#2365SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Cyn
Perhaps the Shard of Contempt discussion should happen again for the 5th time, either read the threads, or use the spreadsheets.
#2366SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1koaschten
Bornakk on the Dagger Rogue Issues:
WoW Forums -> Won't there be gear scaling issues?
We understand that daggers need a bit of improvement and plan to improve them. Currently though there are other options for doing damage for the Rogue so it is not like all options are blocked, but like I said, we are aware of this issue.
We currently don't have any plans to make big changes to any class before Wrath of the Lich King
#2367SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Elis
I'm sorry if this has been answered before somewhere but I couldn't find anything yet. Does anyone know at what armor class Brutallus is figured to be? Like Voidreaver around 8800 or even higher maybe?

So far it doesn't seem to be wise using armor penetration trinkets etc, since you can't stack it to a sufficient degree on that boss to be as effective as pure haste/ap stats. With all the new armor pen. items available in Sunwell it would be interesting to know at what amount of -armor it would make sense to do so again.
#2368SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Feist-Mok
Originally Posted by Elis View Post
I'm sorry if this has been answered before somewhere but I couldn't find anything yet. Does anyone know at what armor class Brutallus is figured to be? Like Voidreaver around 8800 or even higher maybe?
Brut is ~7700 armor just like most other 'high' armor bosses.

It makes no less sense to stack armor pen against him than it does against a boss like Gurtogg Bloodboil - that is, while armor pen is less valuable, it's still great, and will still provide similarly substantial dps gains.
#2369SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Balkoth
7685, I believe, aka a normal boss.
#2370SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Larsson
hello,

i heard rumours that the number for the weapon expertise cap is only an estimation and its possible that it is higher especially the cap for parry. how was that cap number measured or is it a direct information from blizzard?

i am asking because i got the belt from vashj+the new trinket shard of contempt and i am a human rogue what would give me way to much expertise. i am thinking about using the belt of deep shadows+new trinket instead of vashj belt+bloodlust broach

/edit 2.question is the dps calc on raidcalc.com asuming that i am behind or in front of the boss?

Last edited by Larsson : 04/08/08 at 10:34 AM.
#2371SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Left
Answer: read this thread, as well as the DPS Spreadsheet thread and Gear Spreadsheet thread (both linked in the first post). Hint: try searching for "Shard of Contempt".
#2372SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Ricard
The DPS spreadsheet doesn't seem to be linked in the first post anymore.
#2373SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Feist-Mok
Originally Posted by Ricard View Post
The DPS spreadsheet doesn't seem to be linked in the first post anymore.

Because the information in the first post is primarily derived from the Gear sheet which the consensus of more expert rogues than me has come to consider more accurate, if less comprehensive.

The DPS spreadsheet is not hard to find, it's thread is reliably on the first or second page of this forums if somebody needs to seek it out.
#2374SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Gothics
I've heard rumors of them fixing daggers in general for WotLK, but does anyone have any idea how they could do this while keeping them balanced?
Source
#2375SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Left
Originally Posted by Feist-Mok View Post
Because the information in the first post is primarily derived from the Gear sheet which the consensus of more expert rogues than me has come to consider more accurate, if less comprehensive.

The DPS spreadsheet is not hard to find, it's thread is reliably on the first or second page of this forums if somebody needs to seek it out.
I'm sad to see the link go, because the DPS spreadsheet, while admittedly not as accurate, is (a) more comprehensive in terms of spec, (b) gets gear updates significantly more frequently, and (c) is far easier to use. It is also the only current point of comparison for Mutilate and Shadowstep builds, which are common point of debate among raiding rogues. It provides our only real theoretical analysis that Mutilate is competitive and that Shadowstep is not, so in my mind it deserves a link in the first post.

Also, despite being bug-prone, there is some significant cycle work being done on the DPS spreadsheet right now that, when completed, should significantly improve and standardize the modeling.

In summary, you could link it and say "known to be less accurate but more comprehensive; use with caution" if you like, but I think the link should be there.

For reference:
[Rogue] DPS Spreadsheet
#2376SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1royaljester
I would say that there is no need to say "less accurate". People will find out on their own the accuracy of the sheets, just as in using the Gear sheet they'll see slightly less flexibility and fewer updates.

I was under the impression this thread was about general knowledge for the rogue community, not a way to promote one sheet over the other. I look at both, mainly rely on Aldriana's sheet, but in the end, it's not for this thread to decide I don't think, its' for the person to evalute their needs and how each sheet fills those and go from there. Just my two cents.
#2377SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Macblade
Originally Posted by royaljester View Post
I would say that there is no need to say "less accurate". People will find out on their own the accuracy of the sheets, just as in using the Gear sheet they'll see slightly less flexibility and fewer updates.

I was under the impression this thread was about general knowledge for the rogue community, not a way to promote one sheet over the other. I look at both, mainly rely on Aldriana's sheet, but in the end, it's not for this thread to decide I don't think, its' for the person to evalute their needs and how each sheet fills those and go from there. Just my two cents.
Just to play the devil's advocate, I would say that it IS this thread's job to decide. I would say that it is just as useful, if not more useful, to rule OUT bad info as it is to rule IN good info. So if one spreadsheet is more accurate than others then there should be a link to that spreadsheet and only that spreadsheet. If there is more than one, than uninformed readers won't know which to use and could leave with poor assumptions. Given the amount of posts in the last few pages along the lines of "what do you guys think of shard of contempt? I couldn't be bothered searching for it or reading the last page of posts." It's pretty clear that a lot of people coming to this thread are pretty clueless. If people are actually interested enough to use more than one spreadsheet I would imagine that many of those people are the ones that would also manage to find the DPS spreadsheet on there own.
#2378SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Aldriana
Honestly, I'd say the largest difference between the two sheets these days in terms of reasons why one should pick one over the other is simply one spreadsheet program compatability. My sense is that the DPS sheet only works fully in Excel; much of it's functionality still works in OO, of course, but there's a few things that don't. Meanwhile, the Gear sheet has been designed from day 1 with the idea in mind that it should work with both OO and Excel (a fact which has nothing to do with the fact that I don't have Excel at home, I assure you).

I do think the Gear Sheet is somewhat more accurate (though I admit to a certain level of bias on the matter), but the DPS sheet has definitely improved in that department over time; at this point, with the possible exception of a few proc effects, they're probably both good enough for the questions most people are likely to have.

The DPS sheet does support some additional talents and thus specs, which means it's the one-stop-shop for Mutilate Builds. One could also argue that it's the only one that supports Shadowstep builds, but, frankly, Shadowstep is such an irrelevant DPS talent I don't see that that actually much matters (which is why it's not in the Gear sheet).

The DPS sheet does update more regularly, which is both good and bad. It's good in that new changes find their way in faster (though the Gear Sheet does get most of that in a timely fashion itself; it's just the more complicated proc effects that take a bit longer). However, it also means that there tend to be tweaks and balance updates and whatever that find their way in, meaning that if you enter the same gear in twice two weeks apart, you may get different answers, which I can see being frustrating.

I guess I'm a bit surprised to see "ease of use" marked in favor of the DPS sheet; I suppose Armory Import helps in that department, but personally I've always found the DPS sheet fairly confusing, and have made an effort to keep the Gear sheet as simple as possible. Though I suppose things like the ability to save + reimport your gear would save time in managing the many updates. Though since the the Gear sheet updates so rarely, I guess I've never felt that needing to spend 5 minutes once a month to enter your gear was a major issue. But fundamentally: if there are usability improvements (that don't require macros) you'd like to see in the Gear sheet, let me know and I'll see what I can do.

I guess my point in all this is: they're both good sheets, and in a lot of ways whichever one people pick will be fine. I guess it really comes down to whether the spreadsheet listings in the first post are supposed to be more "References" or "Additional Information". If it's intended purely as a bibliography of the first post, it's probably the way it is; but I think it's probably more productive to list it as an "Additional Information" section, meaning that, flattered though I am to have only the Gear sheet listed, it would probably make more sense to include both... though it might be worth including a brief (very brief) discussion of the pros and cons of each.
#2379SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Professor Hurt
I'm guessing that for every person who prefers the gear sheet, there's one who prefers the dps sheet. I'm personally in the later camp (not a reflection of the quality of ald's work) and think not listing the dps sheet is doing a great diservice to both the community and to the work dmm has recently put in to it. My 2c as well.
#2380SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Urraca
Originally Posted by Gothics View Post
I've heard rumors of them fixing daggers in general for WotLK, but does anyone have any idea how they could do this while keeping them balanced?
Source
I was thinking about this recently, and I was thinking along the lines of some sort of passive armor penetration. Without doing any sort of math in my head, maybe 75% armor ignore on special attacks? Or just X amount of armor ignore on all attacks. Makes sense too, daggers piercing through armor and all.
#2381SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Dontmindme
Just to address a few things...
DPS Spreadsheet and Open Office compatibility -
Currently the spreadsheet should be just as accurate in Open Office as in Excel. Granted, a lot of the features that make things easier like the Armory import or saving Talent sets and the like do not work in Open Office, but the main spreadsheet is completely compatible and will continue to be. Of course without the Macros, entering the data may not be as straightforward and compact as the Gear spreadsheet. I can certainly see the Gear spreadsheet as being more user-friendly if you are using Open Office and are using a supported Talent build.

The only current deficiency is in the Open Office AEP category as that module has become quite outdated and I was forced to disable it as it was giving erratic results. This does not affect the accuracy of the spreadsheet relative to Excel versions, but is an inconvenience to those who wish to use player specific AEP values.

Accuracy -
Well, sometimes the DPS spreadsheet is behind, sometimes ahead. The DPS spreadsheet had the correct Mace crit formula long before the Gear spreadsheet. The Gear spreadsheet has had much more advanced proc modeling long ahead of the DPS spreadsheet (some proc effects still are behind). As I get to these, I hope to make these effects at least, if not more accurate, than those in the Gear spreadsheet. But its fair to admit some are still behind the Gear spreadsheet. Both sheets have run across their share of bugs, probably more so for the DPS spreadsheet. As anyone who has ever programmed would know, the more updates one makes, the more chances something gets screwed up. The extra variety of builds covered (including Mutilate and Seal Fate variants) doesn't help, as it creates more situations where a bug hides and only shows up in certain builds.

Mutilate has been all over the place lately. There have been a few bugs lately that have made it appear better relative to Combat builds. One a few versions back which devalued Sword Spec for one version, another which was fixed yesterday that overstated Mutilate a bit. Given the difference in how Mutilate operates, it makes it very difficult to fairly compare the two builds anyway. When more talents change, when your instant attack is different, when you use a completely different type of cycle, it's rather unlikely that any spreadsheet is going to be able to compare the DPS of those two builds with perfect accuracy.

At least the DPS spreadsheet has gotten past the days where Seal Fate was giving 100's of DPS and the endless posts about how X Seal fate build shows to be superior than Combat Swords when everyone knew that there was an undiscovered bug somewhere.

It doesn't help that with the expansion coming up probably sometime this year, that I'm doing a lot of reorganization of things to make the conversion go more smoothly. Hopefully, there will be an, at least, semi-functioning spreadsheet as the expansion hits. And of course, it's in the process of a cycle revamp which should give more usable and slightly more accurate results. Of course with any major changes come more chances of undiscovered bugs.
#2382SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Raav
I prefer the DPS sheet at the moment as my gear is still pretty sub-par so the wider range of items and ease of adding gear that is not on the sheet is nice to have, especially when deciding what upgrades to focus on acquiring first. As my gear gets better I'll likely use the Gear spreadsheet more often.

That being said, I agree with Aldriana that it's probably best to put them both in the first post with a brief comparison so people know what to expect from each of them.
#2383SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Vulajin
I removed the link to the DPS Spreadsheet thread because its recent history includes a number of results that are, at best, questionable. I greatly respect Dontmindme's efforts (as well as Left's and Todemax's on the upcoming Mutilate modeling), but I think the DPS Spreadsheet is, at this moment, more of a hindrance than a help to DPS-minded rogues.

To be fair, the link probably should have been removed a good deal sooner than it was. The sheet has come a fairly long way since DMM took over, and several of the bugs that motivated the sheet's removal from the list have actually been fixed.

As it is, most of the information in the post is based on conclusions drawn either from the Gear Spreadsheet or from my personal spreadsheet (both of which typically corroborate one another's results).
#2384SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1FromTheAshes
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
Without getting into the whole "weaving a third finisher into Mutilate cycles" point (as I have very little experience in the matter, though I understand that there are reasonable alternatives that some people prefer), fundamentally this really just comes down to the eternal question of Envenom vs Eviscerate. And conventional wisdom on this is that in most cases, the loss of DP damage is such that Eviscerate proves better. Now, I know you assert that it stacks up again pretty quickly, but lets look at this a minute:

1) If your attacks are happening every 1.08 seconds, and you have a 34% chance to proc, that's one stack every 3.18 seconds assuming everything hits. In practice, not everything hits; I'd say 90% hit rate is more likely, which takes us to one application every 3.5 seconds.

2) At one stack every 3.5 seconds, that's 17.5 seconds to get the full stack back up, during which you lose, on average, something like 945 poison damage. An Envenom may be bigger than an Eviscerate, but is it 900 damage bigger on average?

Also, of course, there's the fact that "it's worth using one every 3 cycles for Mutilate rogues" is not generally what is meant by "PvE viability".
4/5 vile poisons+misery+stormstrike+ it ignores armor, yes it hits WAY harder than evisc, it hit an average of 1345 only using 4 point envenoms, im getting this looking at Recount preservation on morogrim tidewalker. and on 90% hit rate, im hit capped. i experienced dodges 5.5% of my hits that fight. DP ticks every 3 seconds, the only question here is losing that dp dps worth using the envenom. evisc averaged 753 on morogrim, 0/3 imp evisc and full aggression.
#2385SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Aldriana
Originally Posted by Dontmindme View Post
The only current deficiency is in the Open Office AEP category as that module has become quite outdated and I was forced to disable it as it was giving erratic results. This does not affect the accuracy of the spreadsheet relative to Excel versions, but is an inconvenience to those who wish to use player specific AEP values.

<snip>

Accuracy -
Well, sometimes the DPS spreadsheet is behind, sometimes ahead. The DPS spreadsheet had the correct Mace crit formula long before the Gear spreadsheet. The Gear spreadsheet has had much more advanced proc modeling long ahead of the DPS spreadsheet (some proc effects still are behind). As I get to these, I hope to make these effects at least, if not more accurate, than those in the Gear spreadsheet. But its fair to admit some are still behind the Gear spreadsheet. Both sheets have run across their share of bugs, probably more so for the DPS spreadsheet. As anyone who has ever programmed would know, the more updates one makes, the more chances something gets screwed up. The extra variety of builds covered (including Mutilate and Seal Fate variants) doesn't help, as it creates more situations where a bug hides and only shows up in certain builds.
To be clear: I'm not trying to disparage the work anyone has put into the DPS Sheet. I do think it's a worthwhile resource, and I do appreciate the time and effort people have put into it. I just wanted to touch on these points briefly.

On OpenOffice: I would argue that if AEP doesn't work, that's a significant hindrance to the sheet. The vast majority of questions in this thread that get referred to the spreadsheet are of the form "which is better, X or Y" - and while plugging in all relevant combinations of gear and checking DPS total certainly does work, I am of the opinion that AEP are a valuable tool. It was, in fact, the breaking of the AEP calculations that I was specifically referring to. It's not crippling... but it is a loss of important and relevant functionality.

On accuracy: as I said, I do think the DPS Sheet has improved by leaps and bounds in more recent times, and perhaps in particular under DMM's stewardship. My point is, neglecting bugs for the moment (as both sheets have had their share) and looking at only the thoroughness and accuracy of the modeling, the Gear Sheet has been ahead more or less as long as it has existed. There are any number of interactions and dependencies between stats that were discovered in the Gear sheet and only later added to the DPS sheet. It might be easy to forget now, but: a year ago, the interaction between hit and proc uptime was totally unknown; it wasn't modeled in the DPS sheet - at all - so no one paid any attention to it. It wasn't until the very first version of the Gear sheet was created and started ranking hit a good .5 EP above it's previous values that anyone thought about it. Now, in time, the DPS sheet has made an effort to model these and the answers are again converging... but I think it's worth noting that the DPS sheet is only in the past 3 months catching up to where the Gear sheet was last summer on these effects.

Now, there are certainly other effects in play beyond procs, and the DPS sheet does - and for the most part, always has - done an admirable job of modeling them. But fundamentally, it's only these effects that make modeling Rogue DPS hard, so if you're not going to get them right, that strikes me as reasonable thing to count against the accuracy of a sheet.

It is, of course, also fair to note that in some areas of modeling - such as Mutilate - the DPS Sheet is miles ahead in it's own right, which is a fair critique, to be sure. But then, the Gear sheet never was intended to address these things, either; it's stated goal was to give the most accurate possible answer in the most usable possible form for the 95% case, which is combat rogues, and I like to think it's done quite well at meeting that goal.

In general, I think what it comes down to is that both the greatest advantage and the greatest flaw of the DPS sheet is the simple fact that it's on it's... 6th? or so? maintainer. Speaking as someone with a little experience on the matter: it's very hard to stay passionate and enthusiastic about maintaining a sheet, perfecting the modeling, adding new features, and so on for a year. So the fact that recently the DPS sheet has been handed off from one owner to the next every couple of months means there's a constant influx of new ideas and the enthusiasm to put them into practice, which is why it has more bells and whistles, and why it gets updated once a week instead of once a month. On the other hand, it means that no maintainer of it can possible understand all of it's intricacies as well as I understand the Gear sheet, as there's significant sections of it that were written 5 authors ago, and it's not always clear what the assumptions that went into creating such sections are, nor the limitations that they might have. So the fact that there has been a lot more turnover means it's also more prone to developing bugs, and there's less of a sense of a guiding vision of where the sheet should be headed. It's just the tradeoffs of it's history. So I guess I can see Vulajin's point that for the casual forum goer who just wants to compare a few items, the stability - even in the absence of nifty features - of the Gear Sheet might be desirable.
#2386SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Vulajin
I would like to note here that this thread is not about spreadsheets. If you would like to discuss the merits of one spreadsheet over another, it's likely best to do so in the spreadsheets' respective topics. Discussing why the DPS Spreadsheet should be linked in the first post here is within the scope of the thread, but, for the moment, futile, as I'm not revising the first post at the moment while working on the new TTT version of it.
#2387SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Left
Originally Posted by Vulajin View Post
I removed the link to the DPS Spreadsheet thread because its recent history includes a number of results that are, at best, questionable. I greatly respect Dontmindme's efforts (as well as Left's and Todemax's on the upcoming Mutilate modeling), but I think the DPS Spreadsheet is, at this moment, more of a hindrance than a help to DPS-minded rogues.

To be fair, the link probably should have been removed a good deal sooner than it was. The sheet has come a fairly long way since DMM took over, and several of the bugs that motivated the sheet's removal from the list have actually been fixed.

As it is, most of the information in the post is based on conclusions drawn either from the Gear Spreadsheet or from my personal spreadsheet (both of which typically corroborate one another's results).
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
So I guess I can see Vulajin's point that for the casual forum goer who just wants to compare a few items, the stability - even in the absence of nifty features - of the Gear Sheet might be desirable.
To be truly fair, we have to remember that the reason the DPS sheet is considered inaccurate is that the Gear sheet is considered accurate. When they disagree we just assume the Gear sheet is right because it has been in the past. Now we have good reasons for that, but we should recognize it's still an assumption we make sort of implicitly. It's good to remember that even a really excellent sheet (which the gear sheet is) can have issues: remember the Executioner vs. Mongoose bug? It turns out that was a nuance that made a small difference and a lot of rogues when with Executioner in order to eke out more DPS... but it wasn't right. In my mind, having two points of comparison is useful, even if you generally trust one more than the other. Since we are fortunate enough to have two sheets which use different techniques, I think we should use both.

As for the "user friendliness" issue, I bet a lot of rogues come in here, see the Gear sheet, say "what, I have to enter all my stuff by hand? But item x isn't in the sheet? When will it be added?" and, understandably, get somewhat frustrated. On the other hand, rogues with access to Excel can just Armory-import into the DPS sheet and off they go. Your casual user who doesn't want to search the thread doesn't want to take forever entering their gear either, especially when they find out that their spec (eg Shadowstep) isn't supported in the sheet.

The DPS spreadsheet is useful precisely because it supports all specs and so clearly shows (for example) how Shadowstep is severely inferior and Mutilate competitive. Nuance it doesn't have, sure. But, honestly, any rogue who is just coming in with "hai guys how can i improve my dps lol" needs the really basic stuff, which the DPS spreadsheet can provide. It will give a good overview and path to improvement. Following that, a rogue who truly wants to be good will read the discussion here anyway and use the other sheet.

In other words, I think there is a pretty clear case that the DPS spreadsheet has it's uses and should be offered as a resource, albeit with an explanation of it's particular pros and cons. Same for the Gear sheet.
#2388SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Tosa
I think Elixir of Demonslaying should be noted somewhere in the self-buffs section. More than twice as much AP as a flask.
#2389SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Vulajin
Originally Posted by Left View Post
To be truly fair, we have to remember that the reason the DPS sheet is considered inaccurate is that the Gear sheet is considered accurate.
I will respond once more on the spreadsheet debate only to say this: in my case, the above quote is simply not true. I maintain a personal spreadsheet that, more often than not, provides the same results the Gear Spreadsheet provides. This is largely the reason why I consider the Gear Spreadsheet more accurate.

Now I will reiterate, please do not use this thread as a location to debate the merits of the various spreadsheets. It is simply not a productive point of discussion, and quite frankly, I don't care which one anyone else thinks is more accurate or more useful or serves the rogue community better.

Originally Posted by Tosa
I think Elixir of Demonslaying should be noted somewhere in the self-buffs section. More than twice as much AP as a flask.
Will be covered in the upcoming Theorycrafting Think Tank article.
#2390SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
weka
On the Shattered Sun Pendant of Might:

It adds 1%-1.5% damage at T6 (it fluctuates whenever I'm in BT/MH, but thats about a 3 hour long raid, big enough for test %), using Recount addon as the basis for my math. About 12-20 DPS.

I have 1834 attack power, adding 131 dps (Help here with my math please? I used 75% for OH). 131 + 0.75(131) = ~229 DPS per 1834 AP; 1834/229 = ~8AP per DPS; 200 for 10 seconds per minute; (200/6)/8 = 4 DPS added for the MH; 3 for the OH, by the Aldor neck. 7 dps total.

See if my math is wrong. It does look like the Scryer one wins.


Of course that is 7 dps on just passive attacks, I don't know how to do the math to add in dmg added for 200 AP for SS and Rupture. Maybe it's equalizing?

Last edited by weka : 04/08/08 at 6:17 PM.
#2391SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Shaker
Originally Posted by weka View Post
On the Shattered Sun Pendant of Might:

It adds 1%-1.5% damage at T6 (it fluctuates whenever I'm in BT/MH, but thats about a 3 hour long raid, big enough for test %), using Recount addon as the basis for my math. About 12-20 DPS.

I have 1834 attack power, adding 131 dps (Help here with my math please? I used 75% for OH). 131 + 0.75(131) = ~229 DPS per 1834 AP; 1834/229 = ~8AP per DPS; 200 for 10 seconds per minute; (200/6)/8 = 4 DPS added for the MH; 3 for the OH, by the Aldor neck. 7 dps total.

See if my math is wrong. It does look like the Scryer one wins.
You can't just divide attack power by 14 and get total effective dps. At least, I hope you're doing more than 131 dps if you have 1834 attack power.

At my gear level (complete T5) the Aldor neck proc provides ~12 dps, which is almost exactly what the scryer neck provides. The only major difference is the Aldor neck buff will scale better than the Scryer one, given the assumption that the Arcane proc only scales with crit, whereas the Aldor buff will scale with all the normal stats that AtkPower scales with.

It's my belief (though the other number crunchers are more suited to back this up or reject it) that the Scryer neck is more powerful at lower gear levels, and the Aldor one matches up with it at approximately the late T5 / early T6 level, and from there the aldor neck will do better. Of course, by then you should have access to better necks.
#2392SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1weka
Originally Posted by Shaker View Post
I have no clue what math you're doing to get 7 dps.

At my gear level (complete T5) the Aldor neck proc provides ~12 dps, which is almost exactly what the scryer neck provides. The only major difference is the Aldor neck buff will scale better than the Scryer one, given the assumption that the Arcane proc only scales with crit, whereas the Aldor buff will scale with all the normal stats that AtkPower scales with.
I'm assuming 8AP per DPS after I divide My AP per total dps on both of my weapons. It would be nice to be able to break that down better, this is a little complicated.
#2393SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Shaker
Originally Posted by weka View Post
I'm assuming 8AP per DPS after I divide My AP per total dps on both of my weapons. It would be nice to be able to break that down better, this is a little complicated.
Yeah, that's a pretty flawed model. Honestly, my recommendation is to assume 12-15 DPS from the scryer proc, and assume an extra 40 AP on the Aldor proc (20% uptime), and plug into your favorite spreadsheet.


Edit to add: The model you're using completely ignores AP's effect on yellow damage (SS, Rupture), and also ignores haste effects. It's highly undervaluing AP.
#2394SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Onomatopeizator
Excuse me for adding to the spreadsheet discussion, but I thought it's the best thread to discuss a possible difference in modelling sword and fist spec in two, since I can find people using both here.

Basically, I've used both to compare the dps from standard combat swords using Talon of Azshara and MGQ to fist/sword spec with Vanir's MH and MGQ, and combat fist with dual Vanir's. (rest of the gear found in my armory profile). I was a bit puzzled by the results: the DPS spreadsheet (2.4.0.7) reported a 4,7 dps loss for fist/sword (3,6 for dual fists), while the gear spreadsheet (0.9.5) reported 7,4 and 15 dps gains respectively. To add to the confusion, version 2.4.0.5 of the DPS spreadsheet also reported gains, but this changed in the later ones. I suppose the change to sword spec proccing from specials in 2.4.0.6 is to blame.

Now, this seems like a huge discrepancy to me, and I'm wondering what are the differences between the two sheets that are causing it, and whether it's due to a difference in modelling. I didn't find any post on this so far, but two posts in the DPS spreadsheet had the same result of dps loss for vanir's.
#2395SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Kadover
I'm looking for a bit of help with gemming my rogue for a few pieces. Tonight has been very chaotic and I'm trying not to lose my head.

Before tonight, I had 1695 AP, 294 Hit, and 24.73% chance to crit.

Then tonight, I picked up the T5 gloves, which, in order to keep 2pcT4, forced me to go back to my T4 legs (so the 2pc is helm and legs). Tonight I also had the [Belt of Deep Shadow] crafted, and within the next week I will have the [Tunic of the Dark Hour]

With these 2 pieces un-gemmed, I believe I should be sitting at 1755 AP, 319 Hit and about 24% chance to crit.

I am curious what some suggestions for gemming these pieces would be? Currently my health is a bit on the low side, hovering around 8.4k, and I realize that I should probably bring this up for our level of content (5/6 SSC, 3/4 TK, 1/5 MH). However, I realize it would probably be a mistake to just put [Solid Star of Elune] or similar in the empty sockets.

Another option is to completely regem all my gear, if it is felt that I am leaning to heavily towards hit for my level of progression.

Armory link is here if anyone wishes to take a look at my current gems, hopefully the armory will update soon to reflect the [Belt of Deep Shadow] being added. Any help would be awesome.
#2396SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1bluehydra
I've noticed a split in gemming for rogues in T6+

Either they gem +10 hit all over, or they use 5 agi / 5 hit. WWS shows the dps difference to be insignificant, and the spreadsheets concur.

This choice makes a pretty significant difference in your end stats (upwards of 50 hit), so i'm wondering what the pros and cons of this choice are.
#2397SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Riot
Originally Posted by bluehydra View Post
I've noticed a split in gemming for rogues in T6+

Either they gem +10 hit all over, or they use 5 agi / 5 hit. WWS shows the dps difference to be insignificant, and the spreadsheets concur.

This choice makes a pretty significant difference in your end stats (upwards of 50 hit), so i'm wondering what the pros and cons of this choice are.
It's more of a question of supply.
#2398SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1bluehydra
double post
#2399SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1bluehydra
meaning rogues with access to equal amounts of both gems would choose...what?

I vaguely remember reading that the extra agility might be better on interrupted movement fights, but i don't have the knowledge to verify that myself.

just to clarify, the spreadsheets show gemming 10 hit as a small dps gain over 5/5, but many rogues choose to go with 5/5 anyway. I'm wondering what hidden benefit is causing them to make this choice.
#2400SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1koaschten
The benefit of doing more trash DPS, which is what you spend most time on when farming. lvl 71/72 requires far less +hit then bosses.
#2401SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Vodrin
Also with 'best items' in slot you'll be over the hit cap with +10hit so they may be looking toward the future.
#2402SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Raconzor
So I'm a little nervous about hacking around with the spreadsheet, but ...

Currently, with shard, weapon expertise, and [Shoulderpads of the Stranger] I am slightly over the expertise cap (23 expertise). I mostly use Aldriana's sheet, but since the shard isn't modeled yet (I know it's coming!) I can't easily compare the value of other shoulders. For instance ... if I ignore the expertise from my current shoulders, would I get a significant net benefit from going back to Netherblade shoulders + helm for 2pc T4 and replacing my current gloves with T5?

At the moment, it would appear that the only T5 I will ever wear is the gloves, and that not for quite some time. It is unlikely that I would get the helm (DKP) and the sheets tell me that S3 helm + T5 gloves is a very minor upgrade in dps due to loss of T4 2pc. Of course, the new badge chest and legs are amazing, and Stranger-pads are at least as good as T5 shoulders, so ... yeah. T5 seems almost entirely defunct.


Edit: Perhaps I misread somewhere ... I was under the impression that the expertise cap for removing dodges was 21 expertise (not expertise rating). The first post suggests that as a non-human 2/2 weapon expertise I really need 64, so I am still slightly under cap.
#2403SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Left
Don't confuse expertise rating with expertise itself. You need 26 expertise total (26*0.25 = 6.5), 10 of which comes from WepEx (for combat rogues). You get 3.94 expertise per expertise rating, thus in order to make up the 16 expertise which you still need to cap you need 64 (64/3.94 ~= 16.2) expertise rating.

Last edited by Left : Yesterday at 11:48 AM. Reason: Grammer issues
#2404SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Aloris
Brut DPS

Alright been lurking these forums for quite some time, read up as much as I could find on the subject, had a few questions left.

At the moment my guild has just killed brut but did it right on the enrage timer, was curious of ways to up my dps.

Im at a loss of what trinkets to be useing at the moment, ive read that WSC really shines at my current gear level as well that shard is argueable one of the best meele trinkets. I have WSC/Madness/Shard/Ashtounge curious which to pair with shard. I dont know how relatvent this is but without WSC/madness my hit is kinda low 270ish iirc. The vashj belt is not an option as well due to just recieving the t6 belt.

Ive been running 3 drums in my group with wf/bsfrenzy doing around 2400 dps(with WSC/ashtounge just got shard last night.), curious if i can up it anymore
#2405SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Grunge
Originally Posted by Kadover View Post
I'm looking for a bit of help with gemming my rogue for a few pieces. Tonight has been very chaotic and I'm trying not to lose my head.

Before tonight, I had 1695 AP, 294 Hit, and 24.73% chance to crit.

Then tonight, I picked up the T5 gloves, which, in order to keep 2pcT4, forced me to go back to my T4 legs (so the 2pc is helm and legs). Tonight I also had the [Belt of Deep Shadow] crafted, and within the next week I will have the [Tunic of the Dark Hour]

With these 2 pieces un-gemmed, I believe I should be sitting at 1755 AP, 319 Hit and about 24% chance to crit.

I am curious what some suggestions for gemming these pieces would be? Currently my health is a bit on the low side, hovering around 8.4k, and I realize that I should probably bring this up for our level of content (5/6 SSC, 3/4 TK, 1/5 MH). However, I realize it would probably be a mistake to just put [Solid Star of Elune] or similar in the empty sockets.

Another option is to completely regem all my gear, if it is felt that I am leaning to heavily towards hit for my level of progression.

Armory link is here if anyone wishes to take a look at my current gems, hopefully the armory will update soon to reflect the [Belt of Deep Shadow] being added. Any help would be awesome.
Hmm shows you in pvp gear for me, but I'd suggest you to pick up Gladiator's Slicer, which is probably one of the larger upgrades (81dps->91). Then again there's the badge MH fist weapon.

Also why are you intent on keeping 2pcT4 it's value is greatly overestimated.

Especially with the new badge chest and pants that are both equal to T6 (better in some cases) I'd say it's definitely time to drop 2pcT4 for good. S3 helm and badge pants (the current haste ones) are already a very minor upgrade, so with the new pants there's really no reason to keep 2pc t4.

Since you already have Deep Shadow, new badge belt is a minor sidegrade that can be skipped.
The ring is quite good as well especially since combining it with ZA ring will last you until Illidan and Sunwell (unless you're lucky enough get your mittens on a [Hard Khorium Band].
The Crossbow is also quite minor upgrade depending on your current ranged, however it is as good as the sunwell trash thrown weapon.
At a very hefty 150badges price tag though.
But if you're swimming in badges, MH Fist, Chest, Pants, Ring are all good choices (in that order).

As for leaning towards hit. I wouldn't say that's much of a problem unless you're reaching the cap (363 or 343 if you're using 20 hit food.)
However do remember that the hit cap is not a magical number and my personal aim would be around the 300-307 mark, which allows me to use 20hit food on the boss and 20agi food on the trash.

Last edited by Grunge : Yesterday at 11:59 AM.
#2406SourcePosted on <=2.0.0 Aldriana
Originally Posted by bluehydra View Post
I've noticed a split in gemming for rogues in T6+

Either they gem +10 hit all over, or they use 5 agi / 5 hit. WWS shows the dps difference to be insignificant, and the spreadsheets concur.

This choice makes a pretty significant difference in your end stats (upwards of 50 hit), so i'm wondering what the pros and cons of this choice are.
The short answer is that Hit is slightly more damage on sustained fights, but factors like the hit cap and interrupted fights can skew the decision. I actually made a post on the case for agility in the Rogue Gear Sheet thread recently; I might suggest reading this post to understand some of the issues involved.
#2407SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Gern
I wanted to see if anyone has any tips on maximizing dps on trash, where rupture rarely is able to last its duration and the 2pc T4 bonus seems like it'd be much less valuable.

- Is eviscerate worth using as a replacement for rupture when clearing trash or is it still inferior? What about with the 2pc T5 bonus? I still use the T4 helm/gloves due to the SnD bonus, but I've been thinking about picking up a pair of T5 gloves and throwing those on (giving me the 2pc T5 bonus) for trash. If so, then at what point is eviscerate worth using over sinister strike? 3cps, 4cps, 5cps?

- What about using instant poison instead of deadly when you're fighting things that you won't be able to get a good sized stack of deadly on?

- Currently I save AR and BF until I have an opportunity to hit multiple mobs, even if it means they're sitting there waiting to be used, would it be more worthwhile to just blow them at any opportunity? It seems like it makes more sense to simply save them for when you can double their effectiveness.

- Other stuff I didn't think of?
#2408SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Acyrith
A few things I tend to do when dpsing on trash instead of on a boss.

- Get SnD up early, 1 or 2 combo points (depends on how long I expect the mob to live) and then pop it.

- Don't waste combo points, if you're sitting at 4-5 combo points and the mob is about to die pop an evis, better yet if you've got a full deadly poison stack pop an envenom. If you've only got 1-2 combo points and there are more mobs to kill pop SnD so that you have it up for the next mob.

- Only use rupture when you expect it to be able to run near to full duration, it's going to depend a bit on your gear level, armor pen, mob armor etc as to what amount of wasted time on rupture causes evis to surpass it. When considering envenom you'll want to look at how much damage you lose from your poison stack but if the mob dies before you get restacked to 5 you'll be losing less poison damage than you would against a boss.

- Double deadly poison, so this one depends a lot on how quickly the mob dies and whether you have windfury up, etc. As you mentioned in a lot of cases with deadly only on the offhand it won't reach a full stack before the mob dies, with doubly deadly you'll stack a lot faster. In the perfect situation you can get a full stack quickly followed by an envenom and then the mob dies before you lose any damage from missed poison ticks. Now obviously the effectiveness is going to vary a lot depending on what you're doing and how quickly the mob dies but there is the potential for double deadly to not end up wasting nearly as many poison procs as it would on a boss.

Really though you need to consider what you're fighting and how quickly it will die. Some trash will stay alive long enough that you might as well treat it like a boss (nothing coming to mind at the moment in TBC but think AQ40 trash). But for the shorter fights some of the things I've mentioned above can work out rather nicely.
#2409SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Rivkah
I was bored last night so I made a little web calculator to do the gear math based off the data in this thread. If anyone wants to use it, it's at:
Rivkah's World of Warcraft Notes: Rogue Gear Calculator
#2410SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Achillion
Originally Posted by Rivkah View Post
I was bored last night so I made a little web calculator to do the gear math based off the data in this thread. If anyone wants to use it, it's at:
Rivkah's World of Warcraft Notes: Rogue Gear Calculator
What, no Mutilate?
#2411SourcePosted on <=2.0.0 Vulajin
Originally Posted by Achillion View Post
What, no Mutilate?
The post says his calculator is based on the EP weights in this thread. Do you see any Mutilate EP weights here or, in fact, anywhere?
#2412SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Rivkah
If someone has useful mutilate numbers I could easily add them to the list, but all I did for now is a quick and dirty implementation with the data already available. Mainly I just got tired of manually doing the math
#2413SourcePosted on <=2.0.0
Edited on *estimate*Patch 2.4.1
patcherke
Originally Posted by Left View Post
Don't confuse expertise rating with expertise itself. You need 26 expertise total (26*0.25 = 6.5), 10 of which comes from WepEx (for combat rogues). You get 3.94 expertise per expertise rating, thus in order to make up the 16 expertise which you still need to cap you need 64 (64/3.94 ~= 16.2) expertise rating.
erm shouldn't that be 3.94 expertise rating / expertise? at least that is what you calculate in the next line...

As far as i know you need 15.77 expertise rating to cover up 1% of the dodge percentage.
(which is the 3.94 for 0.25 %, and the same number as for hit rating, and this 15.77 is,as a consequence, equal to 4 expertise)

You are already covering 2.5 percent if you have the weapon expertise talent. and the 10 that shows on your character screen is indeed expertise i.m.o
Or am i wrong about this?

Last edited by patcherke : Today at 7:26 AM.
#2414SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Balkoth
Yes, he mixed up the order. And yes, the talent provides a static 10 Expertise, regardless of level.
#2415SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Captain Winky
Regarding [Claw of Molten Fury] and [Fist of Molten Fury], is the additional Fire effect affected by typical raid debuffs such as Scorch, Misery, and Curse of Elements? I saw Roefyll's WWS (Rofyll - Wow Web Stats), which explains a bit about the proc's performance in general, but not necessarily in a raid setting. Can anyone comment? Thanks.
#2416SourcePosted on <=2.0.0
Edited on *estimate*Patch 2.4.1
Shivawn
Hello, I'm obviously one of the new guys around here. I've been using both spreadsheets to figure out gear and such, but I keep seeing people throw around WWS reports of simply astounding dps. Given, most of the time they are in 4/8 T6 armor, and all the fun stuff, but I'm starting to get paranoid that I'm simply missing something terribly, terribly obvious.

I've started to prescribe [Haste Potion]'s to most rogues in my guild, however, something about my dps seems to be lacking. I don't fall behind, persay, but I feel like I should be ahead more often then not.

I've been using a 2s/5r build with 5/5 T5 (soon to be replacing the leggings with some tasty badge gear), and sitting at around 280 hit (rather low for my tastes, but such is the curse of T5). Armory found here just mentally replace that riding crop with [Romulo's Poison Vial].

I've been pushing myself hard to get a [Shard of Contempt], and simply grinding out the rep to get that awesome trinket from the Ashtongue... however, when I do drop Romulo's, I'm going to be in a major hit hole, as it were.

Is there anything glaringly wrong with this setup? Is 2s/5r simply trumped by the 3s/5r I've seen floating around? (Proof of dps standing found here: 5 Mount Hyjal + 1 Black Temple

Thanks in advance.

Last edited by Shivawn : Today at 11:34 AM.
#2417SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Cos-
Originally Posted by Shivawn View Post
Hello, I'm obviously one of the new guys around here. I've been using both spreadsheets to figure out gear and such, but I keep seeing people throw around WWS reports of simply astounding dps. Given, most of the time they are in 4/8 T6 armor, and all the fun stuff, but I'm starting to get paranoid that I'm simply missing something terribly, terribly obvious.

I've started to prescribe [Haste Potion]'s to most rogues in my guild, however, something about my dps seems to be lacking. I don't fall behind, persay, but I feel like I should be ahead more often then not.

I've been using a 2s/5r build with 5/5 T5 (soon to be replacing the leggings with some tasty badge gear), and sitting at around 280 hit (rather low for my tastes, but such is the curse of T5). Armory found here just mentally replace that riding crop with [Romulo's Poison Vial].

I've been pushing myself hard to get a [Shard of Contempt], and simply grinding out the rep to get that awesome trinket from the Ashtongue... however, when I do drop Romulo's, I'm going to be in a major hit hole, as it were.

Is there anything glaringly wrong with this setup? Is 2s/5r simply trumped by the 3s/5r I've seen floating around? (Proof of dps standing found here: 5 Mount Hyjal + 1 Black Temple

Thanks in advance.
No such thing as a "major hit hole" :P You don't have issues with snd dropping if you use 2s5r? I'm impressed. Use the minimum number of cp for snd that prevents it from dropping for you.

We have similar gear and I use 4s5r.
#2418SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Shivawn
Originally Posted by Cos- View Post
No such thing as a "major hit hole" :P You don't have issues with snd dropping if you use 2s5r? I'm impressed. Use the minimum number of cp for snd that prevents it from dropping for you.

Well, it does drop, but it's maybe 1 swing of the offhand. I usually have it back up within .5sec-1sec if it ever does drop. Usually I stay ahead of that timer, though.
#2419SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Cos-
Originally Posted by Shivawn View Post
Well, it does drop, but it's maybe 1 swing of the offhand. I usually have it back up within .5sec-1sec if it ever does drop. Usually I stay ahead of that timer, though.
I see minor stuff. You lose out on ~250 ap with a resto shaman....you don't have runspeed (not such an issue in Hyjal for the first 4)..

Are you doing stuff like cloaking Cripple on Kazrogal etc?

Oh your resto shaman's totem uptime looks terrible. WF generally should proc more then sspec :P
#2420SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Adrianna
Originally Posted by Shivawn View Post
Well, it does drop, but it's maybe 1 swing of the offhand. I usually have it back up within .5sec-1sec if it ever does drop. Usually I stay ahead of that timer, though.
That was really the only thing that seemed like a possible reason in the WWS parse after giving it a quick lookover. You're positioned relatively evenly with the other rogues, and you're all relatively evenly geared. It looks like you drop SnD quite a lot, 8-10 times on relatively short Hyjal fights. That's one thing I would keep an eye on, and maybe try to lengthen your cycle to a 3s/5r and compare the results. If you're only dropping it ever so briefly usually, it probably won't make much of a difference.

One thing I did notice in terms of dps relative to the rest of the raid is the lack of Curse of Recklessness on the bosses. You're running a good chunk of physical dps, and quite a few warlocks as well. See about getting one of them to drop their damage curse and apply CoR instead. It should be a pretty solid overall dps gain with your raid setup.
#2421SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Shivawn
Originally Posted by Cos- View Post
I see minor stuff. You lose out on ~250 ap with a resto shaman....you don't have runspeed (not such an issue in Hyjal for the first 4)..

Are you doing stuff like cloaking Cripple on Kazrogal etc?

Oh your resto shaman's totem uptime looks terrible. WF generally should proc more then sspec :P
We have switched our once Elemental Shaman to Enhancement. And that's a side question that I wished to pose, but I'm not sure where to exactly post it:

what is more valuable to a raid as a whole: Elemental or Enhancement shaman? I've been adamantly stating at the Enhancement grants benefits that far outway the caster equivilent, however, it does mean adding another melee to the raid. TBC has damn near no melee friendly fights, and an extreme amount of melee unfriendly fights.

I do try to cloak cripple when I can (sometimes sheepers are slow for the necro). The Resto shaman usually focuses on healing and not bombing the raid on Kaz, rather than anything else. I'm sure his conservative use of WF on that encounter played a huge part in it.

I'm still not hooked on the whole 'Runspeed is better' idea. I see the points, but I guess I just don't see it as valuable, as 90% of the time, I am just standing there, mashing away at buttons.
#2422SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Cos-
Originally Posted by Shivawn View Post
We have switched our once Elemental Shaman to Enhancement. And that's a side question that I wished to pose, but I'm not sure where to exactly post it:

what is more valuable to a raid as a whole: Elemental or Enhancement shaman? I've been adamantly stating at the Enhancement grants benefits that far outway the caster equivilent, however, it does mean adding another melee to the raid. TBC has damn near no melee friendly fights, and an extreme amount of melee unfriendly fights.

I do try to cloak cripple when I can (sometimes sheepers are slow for the necro). The Resto shaman usually focuses on healing and not bombing the raid on Kaz, rather than anything else. I'm sure his conservative use of WF on that encounter played a huge part in it.

I'm still not hooked on the whole 'Runspeed is better' idea. I see the points, but I guess I just don't see it as valuable, as 90% of the time, I am just standing there, mashing away at buttons.
It might be nitpicking but most of the T6 fights are melee friendly and the ones that aren't get less retarded if you have runspeed :P

Stacking shaman is never really a bad thing either, we run between 2-5 and no one complains about more heroisms! Enhancement shaman who don't have to worry about raid healing will increase your melee dps by a non trivial amount.
#2423SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Goldengiff
Originally Posted by Shivawn View Post
We have switched our once Elemental Shaman to Enhancement. And that's a side question that I wished to pose, but I'm not sure where to exactly post it:

what is more valuable to a raid as a whole: Elemental or Enhancement shaman? I've been adamantly stating at the Enhancement grants benefits that far outway the caster equivilent, however, it does mean adding another melee to the raid. TBC has damn near no melee friendly fights, and an extreme amount of melee unfriendly fights.

I do try to cloak cripple when I can (sometimes sheepers are slow for the necro). The Resto shaman usually focuses on healing and not bombing the raid on Kaz, rather than anything else. I'm sure his conservative use of WF on that encounter played a huge part in it.

I'm still not hooked on the whole 'Runspeed is better' idea. I see the points, but I guess I just don't see it as valuable, as 90% of the time, I am just standing there, mashing away at buttons.
Make sure your Enh shaman also knows how to Totem Twist.
#2424SourcePosted on <=2.0.0
Edited on *estimate*Patch 2.4.1
Mideci
"TBC has damn near no melee friendly fights, and an extreme amount of melee unfriendly fights."

It does?

I must be playing a different game than you. I consider the following melee friendly:

Hydross, Lurker, Tidewalker, Karathress, Vashj, Al'ar, Void Reaver, Solarian, Kael. (Now the trash getting there, ugh, but that's another story.)

Those 9 are all melee friendly because melee can do a ton of damage since most involve standing around whacking on a stationary target for extended periods of time. I'll note that on Kael I watched them kill 2 of the 4 advisers in phase 1 without me and I still topped the meters overall on pretty much every Kael kill.

In Hyjal, every boss is melee friendly except Azgalor, where melee can handle the Doomguards and, well, whack away at a stationary target. In BT, you start out with, Najentus (melee friendly), Supremeus (a joke and melee can still do well on the stationary phases), Akama/Teron/Bloodboil/Reliquary/Shahraz (all melee friendly). On some of these like Akama we have a specific role that's absolutely essential. On others like Teron we simply destroy the damage meters. I haven't done council yet, which all I know is that melee is essential, whether it's friendly to melee or not, for interrupting. And I haven't done Illlidan. But since I've contributed to virtually every boss fight, even if I contribute less on Illidan, I'll take my loot.

"I'm still not hooked on the whole 'Runspeed is better' idea. I see the points, but I guess I just don't see it as valuable, as 90% of the time, I am just standing there, mashing away at buttons."

OK, well you're entitled to that belief, but you are running a lot of the time. You are trading 6 agility for the ability to get somewhere faster. There's a caster pew pewing a healer on Hyjal trash, he needs to be gouged, kicked or KS-ed. You need to get there. You want to get there 8% faster in exchange for 6 agility? OK, you apparently don't. That's fine. There's Supremus, he's 80 yards away at the end of the kite phase. He's only stationary for a while and you can't dps him again once he's moving. You can be there 8% faster with run speed. Or not. Up to you. The fact about run speed is that it gives you dps in aggregate that not having it doesn't give you. You trade 6 agility for it. The reality is that you don't lose as much damage as you think.

Last edited by Mideci : Today at 5:16 PM.
#2425SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Latito
Originally Posted by Shivawn View Post
TBC has damn near no melee friendly fights, and an extreme amount of melee unfriendly fights.
Originally Posted by Mideci View Post
I consider the following melee friendly:

Hydross, Lurker, Tidewalker, Karathress, Vashj, Al'ar, Void Reaver, Solarian, Kael. (Now the trash getting there, ugh, but that's another story.)
While I agree overall with Mideci that TBC is just fine for melee, I would tend to disagree with some of the bosses on his list. In a general sense, physical dps tends to scale more with buffs than caster classes. That is to say, providing you are a reasonably competent player who stays on target and gears appropriately.. your dmg is largely governed by your party buffs and boss debuffs. It takes a LOT of gear to overcome Battle Shout, Unleashed Rage, WF, etc. So in practice, what you might see as melee unfriendly bosses are more just melee unfriendly raid groups. In fact, most bosses support a balanced raid. Generally speaking, stacking physical dps tends to increase the overall raid dps at the cost of more raid dmg. Some fights require a certain number of ranged people (casters dps, healers, hunters), some fights punish guilds for taking lots of melee (can't spread out for splash dmg).. but in general melee are just fine.

Starting at a T5 level:
Hydross: Some splash dmg, some strats support AoE dps, can't rupture or poison.. overall sub-par but still ok for Rogues.
Lurker: Supports a balanced raid
Morogrim: Stand and dps, good fight. Time your Blade Flurry for bonus dps.
FLK: Melee are better at dealing with totems, but get frozen on priest / flk. Not a huge thing either way.
Leo: Ok, he favours casters a bit for whirlwind, but 1/2 the fight you can just stand and dps, no rogue should ever have an issue with inner demon
Vashj: Rogues do well in all phases. Cloak, Imp Sprint, Vanish to get out of roots and static charge. Good single-target-nuke on the Naga. Capable (although not optimal for) of killing Elementals.

Al'ar: Not a great melee fight but neat for separating rogues who can move from those who can't.
VR: High armor, but you can stand and dps while ranged have to move around. Overall pretty even
Solarian: Nice fight, rogues can't really AoE much, but that is a trivial portion of the fight.
Kael: Sure we can't do ranged dps on some of the adds or AoE much on the weapons.. but Kael is quite squishy and lends himself nicely to 4k Sinister Strikes. Given that interrupts are reasonably important and melee can beat on kael quite well.. rogues are fine here

Rage: Low armor boss, no difference melee vs caster.
Anetheron: You need a minimum amount of ranged dps, after that melee is quite nice
Kaz'rogal: Sure he warstomps, but we don't have mana being burnt.
Azgalor: Varrying strategies, melee either deals with doomgaurds (warstomp) or wears FR and beats up on the boss. I suppose a slight edge to casters, although they get silenced.
Archimonde: I would argue this fight favours melee

Najentus: Too many melee might suck but you should have no problems with 6 on a first kill.
Supremus: You could take no ranged to this fight and STILL kill him well within the enrage. This fight favours people who are awake, nothing more.
Akama: Not a boss.
Teron: Low armor tank'n'spank with pushback for casters.
Gurtogg: Sorta requires at least 15 ranged (healer + caster dps + hunter).. but doable with less if you get a melee to run out once every 90 seconds. Rogues are great for Fel Rage, mages are probably the worst class. Can't see a downside to bringing rogues here..
RoS: Rogues are quite helpful for P1 and do excellent dps, the most reliable interrupt (at the lowest dps cost) for P2 and have a threat-wipe with multiple cooldowns for P3.
Mother: Pre-nerf you only brought casters for water, soulstones and heals. Having an ele shaman bloodlust the melee instead of mages at sub-20% was perfectly acceptable. Current version.. it still slightly favours melee I think, but fine with any makeup
Council: Too many melee makes it difficult but we do excellent dps. At least one melee-interrupt is pretty important, beyond that anyone can kill them.
Illidan: Strong dps for all but P2 of the fight. P2 is more just about lucky eye beams for how effective melee are.

Kalecgos: Rogues can cloak.
Brutallus: Rogues can wield warglaives, cloak and scale well with buffs.
Felmyst: Rogues can cloak.
Twins: Publication ban.. but uh, we can cloak. Overall not that amazing there though.

While I realize this is a fairly lengthy list and doesn't even go into a ton of detail.. suffice to say melee dps (rogues in particular) are fine on nearly all fights. We lack a lot of AoE for some fights (Hydross, Morogrim, Solarian, Hyjal trash, Felmyst) but that is never really a 'must-have' crutial part of a fight. Some fights punish stacking melee due to splash dmg or whirlwind stuff (Hydross, ~Lurker, Leo, ~Vashj, ~VR, Azgalor, Najentus, Council, Illidan P2, Kalecgos, Felmyst) and others just flat-out require X number of ranged.. overall the bulk of fights support a balanced raid. Stacking melee might be advantageous on some fights, stacking casters on others might be nice. Sure you can get away with taking 0 melee dps on basically ever fight in TBC, but your raid will be worse off. Similarily there are fights that you could do just fine with 0 caster dps.. but then how long would you have to wait for a piece of gear?
#2426SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Shaker
Just a note - Hydross is now poisonable in frost form, and is also no longer immune to rupture. Void Reaver is also ruptureable, though I can't remember if the poison change affected mechanicals.
#2427SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Aldriana
Additional notes:

1) Setting aside the ability of rogue to DPS, per say, a number of those fights additionally have components that make rogues advantageous to bring - usually for interrupts and/or wound poison. This boosts the utility of at least the first couple of rogues on FLK, Solarian, Kael, Reliquary, and Council.

2) Some of those fights the melee friendliness depends on your strategy. For instance, my guild has melee stay in on Rain of Fire, and doesn't need us in FR to heal through it; hence, we get 100% time on target with no silences against a squishy boss... so the rogues nearly always top the meter, usually by a fair margin. So for us, it's a very melee friendly fight. But in a guild with a different strategy, it's somewhat less so.

3) Fundamentally, very few fights in the expansion are particularly far either direction. Very few fights give melee a big advantage, but very few give melee a big disadvantage. There are somewhat more that lean a bit one way or the other, but almost none do so to the extent that you'd start pulling melee (or ranged) out of the raid unless you were going for a world-top-5 kill... and many, you wouldn't even do it then.

All in all, I don't think it's fair to say that BC expansion raid content has been particularly pro- or anti- melee; which one works better for your guild is generally more of a function of the relative quality of your melee versus ranged DPSers more than any fundamental limitation of the fight.
#2428SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 pewsey
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post

All in all, I don't think it's fair to say that BC expansion raid content has been particularly pro- or anti- melee; which one works better for your guild is generally more of a function of the relative quality of your melee versus ranged DPSers more than any fundamental limitation of the fight.
There was only 1 fight that we came across at the appropriate level that penalised melee which was Vashj.

Unless you have sufficient ranged dps to kill and kite the striders - the melee cannot help. I switched from a pretty much max geared rogue to my kara geared mage so we could get past Vashj. Of course, with a couple of kills under the belt, the gearing meant that it just didn't matter any more.

This isn't so much a "melee unfriendly" - it's a "favours more ranged dps". All the other points I agree 100% with.
#2429SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Oscarvil
Originally Posted by Shaker View Post
Just a note - Hydross is now poisonable in frost form, and is also no longer immune to rupture. Void Reaver is also ruptureable, though I can't remember if the poison change affected mechanicals.
I remember my Romulo's Poison Vial proc (nature damage) damaging Hydross' frost form way back in June of last year. I have a feeling Deadly poison used to stack on (her?) too but I can't confirm it, sorry.
#2430SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1MoonBlitz
yep, poisons work on hydross in frost form. However poisons does not work on void reaver.

-Moonblitz
#2431SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1drumbum
Originally Posted by Oscarvil View Post
I remember my Romulo's Poison Vial proc (nature damage) damaging Hydross' frost form way back in June of last year. I have a feeling Deadly poison used to stack on (her?) too but I can't confirm it, sorry.
The proc from [Romulo's Poison Vial] is actually not categorized as poison damage, despite what you would expect from its name (and even the description). Therefore, mobs that are poison-immune but not nature-immune have always been susceptible to the proc from this trinket.
#2432SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 songster
Originally Posted by Latito View Post
Generally speaking, stacking physical dps tends to increase the overall raid dps at the cost of more raid dmg.
This statement makes no sense.

Stacking physical damage-dealers increases raid DPS but decreases total raid damage? How does that work? Do you mean that fights just take less time, or what? In any case, the total raid damage for any successful boss fight is fixed - it's the amount of health that the boss has, period.
#2433SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Aldriana
"Raid DPS" = Damage done by the raid to the boss.
"Raid Damage" = Damage done by the boss to the raid.

Melee DPS increases DPS on boss, but also takes more damage.
#2434SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Evenfall
He means the raid *takes* more damage.
#2435SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Hamstring
i've got a question about the expertise cap, i assume the op listed the rating needed to be capped. However, last night on illidan i got a fair few parries (Hamstring - WWS). Now, normally i wouldn't be worried about this but, i have both the shard of contempt and the belt of onehundred deaths, which *should* put me 4 rating above the cap.

so, can any one offer me an explanation to this?

Edit: i've just realised that the parry rate and dodge rate are different, hence why i'm getting parried and not dodged. if i'm correct does any one know the cap for removing parrys from the table?
#2436SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Evenfall
You were probably attacking from in front of your target.

Edit for clarity - From WoWWiki:
DPS

Melee DPS also benefit from expertise. With sufficient expertise, melee classes can attack their target from the front without being dodged or parried (although facing restrictions, such as those on Backstab or Shred, still apply). However, it is possible to have enough expertise to prevent dodges, but not parries, and players with such expertise values should remain behind the target to prevent parried attacks from increasing the target's attack speed against the tank.

Expertise against Bosses

The dodge and parry chances for boss-mobs is currently disputed, but combat parses tend to point at around 6.5% dodge and as high as 12-15% parry.[citation needed] Assuming 6.5% dodge and 15% parry, a player would need 26 expertise (about 104 expertise rating) to negate a boss' dodge chance, and 60 expertise (roughly 236 expertise rating) to prevent parries.

To "cap" expertise against a raid boss, melee DPS need only concern themselves with the boss' dodge chance, provided that they attack from behind. This dictates a goal of 104 expertise rating, which is reasonably achievable given the gear added to the game in Patch 2.4. Tanks, however, attack from the front, and need to worry about both dodge and parry. Acquiring sufficient expertise to prevent parries is impossible as of Patch 2.4, even considering talents.

Last edited by Evenfall : 04/11/08 at 3:05 AM.
#2437SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Carnivori
Hamstring removing parries is not very useful, since I can't rly think of any fight where it's reasonable for melee to attack from frontside(maybe illidans elementals sometimes).

Pewsey, our guild used melee on the nagas on Vashj, then we also helped out with the elementals that got all the way up. And at the last phase at least rogues can do sick dmg.
#2438SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Hamstring
Originally Posted by Carnivori View Post
Hamstring removing parries is not very useful, since I can't rly think of any fight where it's reasonable for melee to attack from frontside(maybe illidans elementals sometimes).

Pewsey, our guild used melee on the nagas on Vashj, then we also helped out with the elementals that got all the way up. And at the last phase at least rogues can do sick dmg.
it's not the how usefull removing parries are, it's the reason they are still there. However i think i understand why, it dawned on me shortly after posting. Now i'm interested in what the cap for parries are, since it's clearly different to the cap for dodge.
#2439SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Carnivori
I think I saw the calculations for parry cap somewhere in here at EJ, propably warrior tanking thread or something.
#2440SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Oscarvil
Originally Posted by drumbum View Post
The proc from [Romulo's Poison Vial] is actually not categorized as poison damage, despite what you would expect from its name (and even the description). Therefore, mobs that are poison-immune but not nature-immune have always been susceptible to the proc from this trinket.
Romulo's Poison - Spells - World of Warcraft

Says nature there, what makes you say it's not nature damage?
#2441SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Hamstring
Originally Posted by Carnivori View Post
I think I saw the calculations for parry cap somewhere in here at EJ, propably warrior tanking thread or something.
thanks, i'll go and have a dig around the tanking threads then.
#2442SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Acyrith
Originally Posted by Oscarvil View Post
Romulo's Poison - Spells - World of Warcraft

Says nature there, what makes you say it's not nature damage?

He said it's not poison damage, he didn't say it wasn't nature damage.
#2443SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Aldriana
Originally Posted by Oscarvil View Post
Romulo's Poison - Spells - World of Warcraft

Says nature there, what makes you say it's not nature damage?
If you'll note, he never denied that it was nature damage; he said it wasn't a poison effect. Which is why his comment about poison-immune non-nature immune bosses makes sense.
#2444SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 pewsey
Originally Posted by Carnivori View Post
Hamstring removing parries is not very useful, since I can't rly think of any fight where it's reasonable for melee to attack from frontside(maybe illidans elementals sometimes).

Pewsey, our guild used melee on the nagas on Vashj, then we also helped out with the elementals that got all the way up. And at the last phase at least rogues can do sick dmg.
Thanks Carnivori - we're a bit past it now. We did the same. It's just that at the gear level we got to Vashj with, and our normal raid compositions, we were unable to kill the striders in time.

No amount of melee was going to help us. The Vashj encounter isn't "bad", but it wasn't a good fit for our guild, which has been more melee heavy than ranged heavy.
#2445SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1neg^
Originally Posted by Shivawn View Post
Hello, I'm obviously one of the new guys around here. I've been using both spreadsheets to figure out gear and such, but I keep seeing people throw around WWS reports of simply astounding dps. Given, most of the time they are in 4/8 T6 armor, and all the fun stuff, but I'm starting to get paranoid that I'm simply missing something terribly, terribly obvious.
Group and raid buffs. Rogues need battleshout and a shaman to begin with, or we're more like glorified interrupters then anything else. Our dps depends quite heavily on what kind of support we get, and the reports you see of rogues with very high dps numbers basically get them all(shout, sunder armour, wf, unleashed rage, blood frenzy, imp hunters mark, curse of recklessness, faeire fire, 1-4 bloodlusts). Don't forget that the better geared your raid is, fights will be shorter and everyone will have higher dps numbers.

Most of those buffs and debuffs should be available in one form or another(as they benefit all physical dps classes and tank threat), so there's no reason you shouldn't have at least one melee group with a dps warrior and (enhancement) shaman, then 1-3 rogues(or feral/ret/whatever). What spec adds the most depends more on how good the player is, not the class or spec. ie. having a good resto shaman spec into a mediocre enhancement shaman probably won't help your raid much.
#2446SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Highlander
Originally Posted by Latito View Post
Sure you can get away with taking 0 melee dps on basically ever fight in TBC, but your raid will be worse off. Similarily there are fights that you could do just fine with 0 caster dps.. but then how long would you have to wait for a piece of gear?
This is where I disagree. In TBC I would argue that there are very few fights that could not be easily done with 0 melee (excluding Tanks. Not counting them as melee).
Whereas I'm struggling to think of a fight that could easily be done with 0 ranged/casters.

As Rogues, we should and do top damage meters on most fights and are very useful for interrupts and poison stacking. But, if you seriously think about it, a raid can do without us. Groups that are set up to maximise our DPS, can be easily switched to maximise the DPS of all the casters/ranged players Therefore boosting their DPS to our level and probably beyond.
I would say it's to our credit and that of our healers, that we as Rogues do so well on fights that Blizzard seem intent on handicapping us more so than casters.

The flip side to this is, if most fights were made totally melee friendly, would it trivialise it? Having Rogues and Fury Warriors DPSing for 100% of the time with absolutely no concern for anything else might make everything a little too easy.
#2447SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Oscarvil
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
If you'll note, he never denied that it was nature damage; he said it wasn't a poison effect. Which is why his comment about poison-immune non-nature immune bosses makes sense.
Ah yes sorry I misread. Going over my logs I see that Hydross in both forms was immune to poisons (July raids) so my earlier observation was also incorrect.
#2448SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1neg^
Thankfully half of the caster buffs/debuffs are raidwide instead of group buff, and the group buffs being far from a necessity for casters.
#2449SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
turbare
Umm, quick question, im having a hard time choosing between the following trinkets:

[Shattered Sun Pendant of Might] (this procs some crappy arcane damage, very rarely, but has better stats i think)
and
[Shattered Sun Pendant of Resolve] (this procs 100 expertise, very often, even twice per mob, im scryer)

Atm i have around 250 hit buffed and im really having a hard time deciding what's best.

Still, could [Worgen Claw Necklace] be better than both?


Here is my armory LINK

Last edited by turbare : 04/11/08 at 10:41 AM.
#2450SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Burgers
Fist (mh) / Dagger (oh) Spec?

Hey guys,
I just recently got a hold of a nice fist (mh). I know fist (mh) and sword (oh) holds it's own versus duel swords. My question is how does fist (mh) and dagger (oh) compare? I have a nice (oh) dagger I'd like to use and would be looking at a combat build for pve. Can this combo compete with comparable geared rogues using swords?
#2451SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Gearman
Originally Posted by turbare View Post
Umm, quick question, im having a hard time choosing between the following trinkets:

[Shattered Sun Pendant of Might] (this procs some crappy arcane damage, very rarely, but has better stats i think)
and
[Shattered Sun Pendant of Resolve] (this procs 100 expertise, very often, even twice per mob, im scryer)

Atm i have around 250 hit buffed and im really having a hard time deciding what's best.

Still, could [Worgen Claw Necklace] be better than both?
The procs put both very close to each other in terms of DPS, with the Aldor version coming out slightly ahead because it'll scale better, though, by the time that it does pull ahead, you'll have access to better necks anyway. Worgen Claw isn't better, and if it somehow were, you could get a [Choker of Vile Intent] which is most definitely superior to Worgen Claw (but not better than the SSO exalted necks).
#2452SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
turbare
Thanks for the fast reply, but im still confused:
The question now is which of the two necks to use, the Might, or the Resolve one?

Or, to which of them are you reffering when you are saying Aldor/Scryer version?

From what i know the aldor/scryer diff consists on the proc, for the Might neck (holy damage for Aldor, arcane for Scryer) and for the Resolve (dodge ratingfor Aldor, expertise rating for Scryer), feel free to contradict me if im wrong.

And as im said above, i am Scryer, and asking which of the two would be better in terms of dps.
Also consider that the Might procs very rarely, while the Resolve procs very often, like twice a mob.

Last edited by turbare : 04/11/08 at 11:48 AM.
#2453SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Vulajin
Originally Posted by turbare View Post
Thanks for the fast reply, but im still confused:
The question now is which of the two necks to use, the Might, or the Resolve one?

Or, to which of them are you reffering when you are saying Aldor/Scryer version?

From what i know the aldor/scryer diff consists on the proc, for the Might neck (holy damage) and for the Resolve (dodge rating), feel free to contradict me if im wrong.
The Resolve neck is worthless for a rogue, almost all of the expertise goes to waste unless you're soloing, in which case who really cares?

I whipped up a very rough model of the Might neck. Now, there's two comparisons to make here:

1) Comparing the Aldor proc against the Scryers proc -- this is possible without knowing the exact proc mechanics, as long as we know that there is an internal cooldown.
2) Comparing both versions to other necks -- this is not possible without knowing the exact proc mechanics, but we can roughly guess.

For comparison 1, as Sykt mentioned, the two procs are pretty comparable. The Aldor one is going to come out ahead, but not by terribly much. For comparison 2, we'll need some parses of the thing before we can be sure.
#2454SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1turbare
Ok, so, looking at my stats, you don't think i'll drop in dps using [Shattered Sun Pendant of Might] instead of [Choker of Vile Intent]

From what i've read rogue hit cap is around 350, and i've always thought +hit > all. So what i really am worried about is that the lack of hit won't lower my overall damage output.
#2455SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
 Gearman
Originally Posted by turbare View Post
Thanks for the fast reply, but im still confused:
The question now is which of the two necks to use, the Might, or the Resolve one?

Or, to which of them are you reffering when you are saying Aldor/Scryer version?

From what i know the aldor/scryer diff consists on the proc, for the Might neck (holy damage for Aldor, arcane for Scryer) and for the Resolve (dodge ratingfor Aldor, expertise rating for Scryer), feel free to contradict me if im wrong.

And as im said above, i am Scryer, and asking which of the two would be better in terms of dps.
Also consider that the Might procs very rarely, while the Resolve procs very often, like twice a mob.
I'm referring to [Shattered Sun Pendant of Might], the Resolve isn't worth it for a Rogue, even with a higher proc rate.

The proc on Might for Aldor is a +200 AP buff for 10 seconds, for Scryer, it's a 350-400 arcane damage strike, that can crit. Both are equivalent DPS whether you're Aldor or Scryer, but as I said earlier, by the time the Aldor version pulls ahead, better necks are available.

Comparing the two necks, going from Choker to Might, you:

Lose - 2 agility
Lose - 18 hit rating
Gain - 1 stamina
Gain - 22 attack power (only 20 if you include agility into it)
Gain - A ~1.2 ppm proc that does on average, 300 damage and can crit

If you have a hit rating hovering around 300 already, and a decent amount of expertise (which you should once you get a [Shard of Contempt]), then yes, the loss of hit rating is definitely worth it.

Just looked at your armory profile. Replace your [Core of Ar'kelos] with any of these and your hit rating should be fine (they should all be accessible to someone of your gear level) - [Icon of Unyielding Courage] [Romulo's Poison Vial] [Warp-Spring Coil]

Last edited by Gearman : 04/11/08 at 12:33 PM.
#2456SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1turbare
Originally Posted by turbare View Post
Ok, so, looking at my stats, you don't think i'll drop in dps using [Shattered Sun Pendant of Might] instead of [Choker of Vile Intent]

From what i've read rogue hit cap is around 350, and i've always thought +hit > all. So what i really am worried about is that the lack of hit won't lower my overall damage output.

So the conclusion for this would be?..
Thanks again for the quick answers.
#2457SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Shaker
Originally Posted by Vulajin View Post
The Resolve neck is worthless for a rogue, almost all of the expertise goes to waste unless you're soloing, in which case who really cares?

I whipped up a very rough model of the Might neck. Now, there's two comparisons to make here:

1) Comparing the Aldor proc against the Scryers proc -- this is possible without knowing the exact proc mechanics, as long as we know that there is an internal cooldown.
2) Comparing both versions to other necks -- this is not possible without knowing the exact proc mechanics, but we can roughly guess.

For comparison 1, as Sykt mentioned, the two procs are pretty comparable. The Aldor one is going to come out ahead, but not by terribly much. For comparison 2, we'll need some parses of the thing before we can be sure.
Vul, just a note - I forget where the link is, but someone did some reasonably good testing, found it was a 45s internal cooldown, high chance to proc outside of cooldown, giving it approximately 20% uptime. (This is the same as stuff like Shard of Contempt, 45s cooldown, high chance, but the buff is half the duration)

Given that analysis, it scores slightly higher than Worgen Claw and Choker of Vile intent (at my gear level), and loses handily to Choker of Endless Nightmares.
#2458SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Vulajin
Oh, I guess I forgot to note that I made a rough guess based on assuming the necks were 45 second internal cooldown + 1 PPM. Based on those assumptions, the neck scores right around Choker of Vile Intent.

My own anecdotal testing substantiates the 45 second internal cooldown number, for what it's worth. The only question mark is the proc rate.
#2459SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Aldriana
Originally Posted by Highlander View Post
This is where I disagree. In TBC I would argue that there are very few fights that could not be easily done with 0 melee (excluding Tanks. Not counting them as melee).
Whereas I'm struggling to think of a fight that could easily be done with 0 ranged/casters.

As Rogues, we should and do top damage meters on most fights and are very useful for interrupts and poison stacking. But, if you seriously think about it, a raid can do without us. Groups that are set up to maximise our DPS, can be easily switched to maximise the DPS of all the casters/ranged players Therefore boosting their DPS to our level and probably beyond.
I would say it's to our credit and that of our healers, that we as Rogues do so well on fights that Blizzard seem intent on handicapping us more so than casters.

The flip side to this is, if most fights were made totally melee friendly, would it trivialise it? Having Rogues and Fury Warriors DPSing for 100% of the time with absolutely no concern for anything else might make everything a little too easy.
The thing is, "the raid can do without us" is not the same thing is "we don't contribute anything to the fight". Raids can do without most DPSers of all sorts on most fights. Think about it: on how many fights do you truly need a mage? Or a hunter? I mean, there's a few... but there's a few fights where you need a rogue, too. The point is that having a balanced raid with all classes included tends to be more effective than stacking any one class to a ridiculous extent, such that even if some fights favor one class or another, there's still reason to bring at least one or two of all of them.

That said, it is certainly true that there are fights that are notably bad for rogues... but, honestly, just not very many of them. And even the fights that *are* bad for melee DPS, that tends not to mean "we don't bring *any* rogues" but simply "we don't bring as many". For instance, Vashj requires a certain level of ranged DPS to get the striders down, and it's helpful to have them for the elementals as well. But, once you have enough for that, there's nothing stopping you from bringing melee to kill the Naga and Vashj herself. So if you're having trouble with the fight, yes, you probably stack ranged DPS at the expense of melee... but I'm willing to bet that very few guilds need to stack to the extent that they don't have at least a few melee. It might be 3 instead of their usual 6... but they'll be there.

Also, I disagree with the notion that "a melee friendly fight" consists of one where melee can DPS full time without thinking of anything else. It's certainly true that that's a good fight for melee, but there are other fights and mechanics that are beneficial to us, so a fight could still be made interesting and complex without just being tank-and-spank. For instance, if, say, Brutallus's burn were targeted at the nearest player rather than randomly, you would then want a rotation of people who could remove it to take turns walking directly under the boss, eating it, and then moving out. And the natural - in fact, almost the *only* - choice to do so would be rogues. Would the fight be possible without them? Oh, probably. But it would definitely be the best way of doing the fight.

So in the end: it's true that there are more fights that require ranged DPS than there are that require melee DPS. But I don't think the problem is as bad as some people like to claim, and I don't think the argument that we're not required for any fight holds any water. It would be nice to see a few more melee friendly fights in WotLK... but I'm actually not too discontent with the status quo, either.
#2460SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1iamtabo
Hello all,

I'm running across some things that I don't quite understand. We have a rogue that just started raiding with us. He's geared in a mix of 2pc T4, badge rewards, a piece or 2 of t6 level gear and s1 weapons (His Armory). I'm in a mix of t5 level and t6 level gear with ToA and S2 offhand (My Armory).

According to both dps and gear spreadsheets my dps should be ahead of his, not by a huge margin, but still should be ahead. However, whenever he's in the raid, he is consistently out-damaging me and the rest of the rogues.

I've looked over the wws parses and nothing really jumps out at me. We have similar amounts of white hits, as well as sinister strikes and ruptures. Tho he pops evis's more than I do, I don't think that would be generating the differences that I'm seeing.

Long story short, would greatly appreciate if somebody can take a look see and tell me if that's just how things are or I'm doing something terribly wrong.

Kaz'rogal Parse
Teron Parse
#2461SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Shaker
Well, he has a DST, and you don't, which makes some difference. That *should* be balanced about by his S1 swords, however. I noticed on Kazrogal he was in earlier than you were, but the damage difference is slight and totally within the randomness of rogue DPS. Perhaps he's just trying harder? I notice that neither of you get more than 1 Blade Flurry in during a fight, but again, neither of you are, so it shouldn't be a huge difference.
#2462SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1sedrikk
Are you also sure you are using the same consumables? The addition of him using haste pots can have a noticeable impact if you are not chugging them as well.
#2463SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1tymoney321
Originally Posted by sedrikk View Post
Are you also sure you are using the same consumables? The addition of him using haste pots can have a noticeable impact if you are not chugging them as well.
He isn't using haste pots, those are DST procs sedrikk.

Tabo, check your PMs.
#2464SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1iamtabo
no haste pots, just agi food and elixer. i've chugged a few haste pots a couple times to offset his dst but he still comes out ahead. one of the other rogues in the guild has as dst and about the same level gear as me, he gets beat as well.
#2465SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Samm
Hey Guys, I need a little bit of guidance =/... Well this is my problem, I was recently Combat Swords with The Season 1 Sword Mainhand and the Season 2 Offhand.[Gladiator's Slicer] and [Merciless Gladiator's Quickblade] Recently with the new badge gear I've gotten the Legs, Chest, and the 2 Fist weapons. [Vanir's Left Fist of Savagery] and [Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality]. I'm not sure if I should Stay Combat Fists now that I have the new fist weapons, or either go Fist/Sword. With the Vanir's Right fist as MH and the S2 as Offhand.
#2466SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Shaker
Like the 13 other people who've asked that very question (or very very close approximations of it), we'll suggest you check with a local spreadsheet. There's even links in the first post! I'm faking being excited when really I want to be mean!
#2467SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Vulajin
I really just need to delete the entire first post and replace it with the text: "USE THE SPREADSHEET."

Please follow that advice.
#2468SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1McLarge
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
So in the end: it's true that there are more fights that require ranged DPS than there are that require melee DPS. But I don't think the problem is as bad as some people like to claim, and I don't think the argument that we're not required for any fight holds any water. It would be nice to see a few more melee friendly fights in WotLK... but I'm actually not too discontent with the status quo, either.
I agree.

Seems that the real issue is the very limited amount of "cushion" melee has. There are a large number of endgame fights that require melee to have precise, and very quick, movements to avoid the 1-shot cleave or 2-shot aoe. Cloak gives us a bit of flexibility (though you've still got to use the skill within a 2 second window before death usually) but we really just don't have the room for stupidity that ranged dps does. One step too far to one side, or a second too slow on the cloak, and it's over for us.

In addition, there are a fair number of bosses that require us to either:
1) Stand around and pick our nose because if we get too close they explode
2) Apply wound or mind numbing poison nerfing our damage output
3) Put on our best kickin' shoes.

#1 blows. There's no denying this is a big slam on melee as there aren't really any fights that require ranged to be in close. Luckily there aren't too many of these fights (Kael adds, Council mage, Supremus p2, Illidan p4…a few others)

I'm actually totally fine with 2 & 3, but often raid leaders aren't. The reality is, since other classes can interrupt, our superior ability to kick and apply poisons is rarely viewed as "raid utility" by other classes. Instead it's assumed our only utility is dps, and in a fight where I'm saving energy for a spirit shocks or a circle of healing to be cast my dps doesn't impress. Many muse, "If the rogues aren't topping the meters, and if they have a higher probability of dying, then why bring them?" The annoying reality of guilds like Nihilum doing world first kills without rogues just gives the ignorant more fodder to throw at us.

The only solution is to not suck at your job. Be so good at kicking those spirit shocks that your guild skips RoS when you're not around. Be ridiculously precise and quick in your movements and don't pull agro so you can suggest your guild bring more melee since the locks, mages, and hunters keep wiping raids.

The game isn't biased against melee, we just picked a hard class to play well. I just thank my lucky stars I didn't roll a healer…
#2469SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Samm
Originally Posted by Samm View Post
Hey Guys, I need a little bit of guidance =/... Well this is my problem, I was recently Combat Swords with The Season 1 Sword Mainhand and the Season 2 Offhand.[Gladiator's Slicer] and [Merciless Gladiator's Quickblade] Recently with the new badge gear I've gotten the Legs, Chest, and the 2 Fist weapons. [Vanir's Left Fist of Savagery] and [Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality]. I'm not sure if I should Stay Combat Fists now that I have the new fist weapons, or either go Fist/Sword. With the Vanir's Right fist as MH and the S2 as Offhand.
Sorry, but I understand that you guys want me to use the spreadsheet, and I tried.. I don't have Microsoft Excel, I've downloaded OpenOffice though and the new gear doesn't seem to be in the spreadsheet that is linked on the first page, + the fact that i'm clueless with the spreadsheets.... Also.. Armoury is down as always.Again i'm sorry.
#2470SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Echophantom
Hello everyone. I'm a new poster to these forums, though I've been paying attention to them ever since someone recommended it.

My question seems like a completely idiotic one, but I figure that if I'm having problems with it there's gotta be someone else with the same problem who doesn't want to post about it.

The problem I'm having is keeping up a decent SnD/Rupture rotation. According the Aldriana's spreadsheet I should be doing ~1100 DPS, and able to keep up either 3s/5r or 4s/5r, but I can never seem to be able to keep that up. I'm wondering if it's because I'm not using AR often enough, and that's part of it, or if there's an item I don't know about that I should be using and am not, or if I'm just plain not hitting Combat Potency procs.

So if someone could post an idiot's guide to a Slice and Dice/Rupture rotation for me, that'd be great. I have a suspicion it's that I haven't been using Adrenaline rush often enough, because I always seem to be able to keep up the combo points for it for those 15 seconds, but no further.

Thanks in advance, everyone. These forums have already helped me immensely.

EDIT: And if this has been posted either elsewhere in the thread or another one, I didn't see it, so my apologies there. I tried searching through the forums, but didn't find anything and couldn't think of other terms to use to try and find it.

Last edited by Echophantom : Yesterday at 10:29 PM.
#2471SourcePosted on <=2.0.0aleyro
Originally Posted by Echophantom View Post
The problem I'm having is keeping up a decent SnD/Rupture rotation. According the Aldriana's spreadsheet I should be doing ~1100 DPS, and able to keep up either 3s/5r or 4s/5r, but I can never seem to be able to keep that up. I'm wondering if it's because I'm not using AR often enough, and that's part of it, or if there's an item I don't know about that I should be using and am not, or if I'm just plain not hitting Combat Potency procs.
Though not an absolute requirement, having the 2pc tier 4 bonus certainly helps. After a quick look at your armory, your spec/gear/hit rating seem basically up to par, given your level of progression. Double mongoose might help, as well (mongoose=>haste=>more OH hits=>more CP procs=>more energy=>more CPs=>more finishers=>more relentless procs=>tigher cycles.... you see where i'm going here). If you can, posting a link to a WWS report would give us more info to work with.

Further, AR isn't really meant to be a tool to allow you to maintain cycles- actually, AR normally interferes with normal cycles. What UI/Mods are you using? Your UI should be configured so that you can easily see your CPs, energy, and buffs, with minimal eye-travel.

Finally, don't get hung up on 3s5r, or whatever- just focus on making sure SnD doesn't fall off as your first priority, and that rupture is up as much as possible- SnD will do more for your overall dps than Rupture will.
#2472SourcePosted on <=2.0.0
Edited on *estimate*Patch 2.4.1
Corbet
I'm sure you guys hate these kinds of posts but I'm in dire need of maxxing out my DPS for raiding. I've got a ton of different combinations now that 2.4 is out and I can't decide. With all my hit items equipped, I have the following stats:

+Hit Items:
-504 Agility
-294 Hit
-1792 AP
-26.50% Crit

+New Items:
-546 Agility
-236 Hit
-1854 AP
-27.55% Crit

-126 armor penetration
-.63% Haste
-Aldor +200 AP Proc

The gear in choics in question are:

Neck: [Worgen Claw Necklace] or [Shattered Sun Pendant of Might]
Ranged: [Steelhawk Crossbow] or [Distracting Blades]
Ring: [Violet Signet of the Master Assassin] or [Angelista's Revenge]

One thing that is kinda holding me up is the fact that my Rogue CL was talking theorycraft and he insisted that Rogues must have 290-300 hit, it's the "sweet spot," ect, but with the new items, the increase in AP, Agility, and Crit is insane! Also, I have Weapon Expertise Talent, Shard of Contempt, and Shoulderpads of the Stranger, which makes me almost expertise capped. Advice?

Last edited by Corbet : Today at 12:05 AM.
#2473SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Furien
Originally Posted by Corbet View Post
I'm sure you guys hate these kinds of posts but I'm in dire need of maxxing out my DPS for raiding. I've got a ton of different combinations now that 2.4 is out and I can't decide. With all my hit items equipped, I have the following stats:

The gear in choics in question are:

Neck: [Worgen Claw Necklace] or [Shattered Sun Pendant of Might]
Ranged: [Steelhawk Crossbow] or [Distracting Blades]
Ring: [Violet Signet of the Master Assassin] or [Angelista's Revenge]

One thing that is kinda holding me up is the fact that my Rogue CL was talking theorycraft and he insisted that Rogues must have 290-300 hit, it's the "sweet spot," ect, but with the new items, the increase in AP, Agility, and Crit is insane! Also, I have Weapon Expertise Talent, Shard of Contempt, and Shoulderpads of the Stranger, which makes me almost expertise capped. Advice?
All those items in question can be worked out with one of the spreedsheets, I use Aldriana's (it's linked in the first post of this thread). However in all likelihood go with...

Shattered Sun
Distracting Blades
Angelista's Revenge

There is no special bonus for having hit at 290-300 or even being hit capped. If your rogue CL knows anything about theorycraft he should know this.

Here's a quote from the first post in this thread -

The hit and expertise caps are NOT magic numbers that every rogue [or any rogue] must reach. Whether you're in T4 or T6, there are NO MAGIC NUMBERS for how much hit or expertise rating you "should" have. There is no special benefit to being capped with either stat, nor is there any special benefit to reaching an arbitrary threshold. The purpose of listing the caps here is so that you do not accidentally overshoot either cap by equipping too much hit rating or expertise rating. Always remember that any hit rating or expertise rating beyond the cap will have zero positive effect on your DPS.
#2474SourcePosted on <=2.0.0 Vulajin
My advice is to use the spreadsheet linked in the first post and do your own work. Your rogue CL obviously has not read this thread and therefore doesn't seem to realize that there's no magic number for hit rating (nor is there a "sweet spot," "inflection point," or any other euphemism you want to use for a magic number).
#2475SourcePosted on <=2.0.0drumbum
Originally Posted by Echophantom View Post
The problem I'm having is keeping up a decent SnD/Rupture rotation. According the Aldriana's spreadsheet I should be doing ~1100 DPS, and able to keep up either 3s/5r or 4s/5r, but I can never seem to be able to keep that up. I'm wondering if it's because I'm not using AR often enough, and that's part of it, or if there's an item I don't know about that I should be using and am not, or if I'm just plain not hitting Combat Potency procs.
Keep in mind that the spreadsheets generally are telling you what the tightest possible cycle for your gear is, theoretically. If you can't sustain it in practice, then you should of course lengthen your cycle more to compensate.

However, you can do a little bit to improve the reliability of a cycle. The best option is generally to try to pool your energy as much as possible before refreshing SND, but being careful not to let your energy bar top out or SND fall off. Basically you want to try to take advantage of the extra energy you may have gained in the previous cycle in case you are unlucky in your next cycle and become energy starved.
#2476SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Corbet
Originally Posted by Rivkah View Post
I was bored last night so I made a little web calculator to do the gear math based off the data in this thread. If anyone wants to use it, it's at:
Rivkah's World of Warcraft Notes: Rogue Gear Calculator
Pretty cool idea, but why not allow the user to enter the WoWhead item ID and automatically calculate it?
#2477SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Towelette
Originally Posted by Corbet View Post
I'm sure you guys hate these kinds of posts but I'm in dire need of maxxing out my DPS for raiding. I've got a ton of different combinations now that 2.4 is out and I can't decide. With all my hit items equipped, I have the following stats:

+Hit Items:
-504 Agility
-294 Hit
-1792 AP
-26.50% Crit

+New Items:
-546 Agility
-236 Hit
-1854 AP
-27.55% Crit

-126 armor penetration
-.63% Haste
-Aldor +200 AP Proc

The gear in choics in question are:

Neck: [Worgen Claw Necklace] or [Shattered Sun Pendant of Might]
Ranged: [Steelhawk Crossbow] or [Distracting Blades]
Ring: [Violet Signet of the Master Assassin] or [Angelista's Revenge]

One thing that is kinda holding me up is the fact that my Rogue CL was talking theorycraft and he insisted that Rogues must have 290-300 hit, it's the "sweet spot," ect, but with the new items, the increase in AP, Agility, and Crit is insane! Also, I have Weapon Expertise Talent, Shard of Contempt, and Shoulderpads of the Stranger, which makes me almost expertise capped. Advice?
Your guild needs a new Rogue Class Leader. It pains me to see idiots leading a whole class worth of players for a guild.

Looking at your Armory profile, I see that you have gone with the suggestions made already. Additionally, I would sub in the Shoulderpads of the Stranger for your T5 (possibly) and the Shard of Contempt for your WSC (definitely). If it wouldn't put you at or above the Expertise cap, the SoC is going to be significantly better for you than the WSC. As was said before, there is no "sweet spot" for hit rating, and the 'hit before all else!' myth that just won't die needs to be dispelled already. Even at my gear level (SSC\TK and 2.4 Badge loot) the spreadsheet shows Agility to be worth almost as much as hit rating already (assuming full raid buffs including Kings).

It takes a little bit of work to start using the spreadsheet if you're like me and not computer competent whatsoever, but it's definitely a tool worth using, even at the most basic level of utilizing the AEP calculator to compare gear and upgrades. Your Rogue Class Leader really needs to spend an hour or two reading both this thread and the Rogue Gear Spreadsheet thread by Aldrianna et al. Fundamental misunderstandings of the class is something that a guild cannot easily afford in its Class Leaders.
#2478SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Towelette
Originally Posted by drumbum View Post
Keep in mind that the spreadsheets generally are telling you what the tightest possible cycle for your gear is, theoretically. If you can't sustain it in practice, then you should of course lengthen your cycle more to compensate.

However, you can do a little bit to improve the reliability of a cycle. The best option is generally to try to pool your energy as much as possible before refreshing SND, but being careful not to let your energy bar top out or SND fall off. Basically you want to try to take advantage of the extra energy you may have gained in the previous cycle in case you are unlucky in your next cycle and become energy starved.
This is a tactic I've been using the past couple of months myself, although Aldrianna's spreadsheet says to "cut" my SnD finishers (2pc T4 still). Honestly, I really can't understand the benefit in doing so. I've been waiting to refresh my SnD at around 80 Energy if I have the time left on my current SnD (or slightly less if I have to). It really seems illogical to overwrite 5-6s of running SnD to be sitting at a low amount of Energy. I just don't see how this would increase my Rupture uptime. Am I just misunderstanding something here?
#2479SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Vodrin
Originally Posted by Towelette View Post
This is a tactic I've been using the past couple of months myself, although Aldrianna's spreadsheet says to "cut" my SnD finishers (2pc T4 still). Honestly, I really can't understand the benefit in doing so. I've been waiting to refresh my SnD at around 80 Energy if I have the time left on my current SnD (or slightly less if I have to). It really seems illogical to overwrite 5-6s of running SnD to be sitting at a low amount of Energy. I just don't see how this would increase my Rupture uptime. Am I just misunderstanding something here?
That is not cutting SnD, you are doing it right by letting your energy pool until SnD is almost dropping off. The problem comes when SnD won't run off before you cap energy. That is when you cut your SnD and sinister strike the energy away. A spreadsheet gives you the probable cycle, however you may get unlucky with combat potency and ruthlessness meaning you aren't needing to cut your SnD as your energy won't cap. In short don't worry about it, just do what you are doing.
#2480SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Auturgist
Two things:

1] Regarding the current discussion of SnD cycles, I have a question concerning my own current method of handling them. This is what I do: once I get SnD running, I build combo points toward a 5r, and hit that as soon as I have the energy to get Rupture ticking. Now, I start SSing for combo points toward my next finisher, presumably another SnD. At any point in this phase of my cycle, if SnD is about to end, I refresh it for however many CP I have. If I hit 5CP before SnD ends, I will do one of three things, with the following priority: a) if SnD is about to run out, I'll let my energy regen until just before SnD ends and then refresh it, b) if SnD is up with plenty of time and Rupture is about to run out, I'll Rupture as soon as it ends, c) if both SnD and Rupture are up with plenty of time, I'll pop a 5CP Eviscerate for the immediate hard hit it provides. I have always felt this method ensures CP are never wasted inefficiently, even if it sometimes means that Rupture ends and isn't renewed immediately.

Now, my question is: am I correct in thinking that a 5CP Eviscerate to make efficient use of combo points warrants the occasional lapse in Rupture uptime? Is it actually efficient? I know that given the choice between the two, Rupture over Eviscerate whenever possible, provided the full Rupture will tick off on your target... but if the choice is between refreshing a SnD or Rupture that is still "in progress" or blasting the mob with a 5CP Eviscerate, am I right in thinking the Eviscerate is the most damaging use of the CP at the time, even if it means that the following Rupture has to be delayed slightly?

2] I have used the spreadsheet to compare my current [Choker of Vile Intent] to the [Shattered Sun Pendant of Might]. I am Aldor, and according to the spreadsheet, the latter provides an increase of roughly 5 DPS. My instinct is that this is only a reliable valuation in pure tank and spank encounters -- I feel that on anything else, the proc effect isn't worth nearly as much because something could interrupt your DPS, wasting the effect. Take Tidewalker, for example... as much as he is a tank and spank encounter for the most part, his Watery Grave could remove you from the fight just after the SSPoM procs, and now that 200 AP buff is totally wasted. For this reason, I'm inclined to stick with the guaranteed, yet slightly lower stats of the Choker, that include Hit Rating, as that is always beneficial to me. Am I wrong to do so, or does the proc effect of the SSPoM validate my opinion of it as being situationally superior at best?
#2481SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1hannigaholic
Originally Posted by Auturgist View Post
Take Tidewalker, for example... as much as he is a tank and spank encounter for the most part, his Watery Grave could remove you from the fight just after the SSPoM procs, and now that 200 AP buff is totally wasted.
Conversely, you could get graved just after the 200AP buff runs out, meaning that you're just eating internal cooldown time, increasing the uptime of SSPoM compared to total dps time. Over time my guess is that you'd get just as many times of it happening one way as it does the other. I'd say it's best to just take whichever gives you higher sustained dps (in this case, the SSPoM).
#2482SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Arindelest
Originally Posted by Auturgist View Post
Two things:

[some stuff]

2] I have used the spreadsheet to compare my current [Choker of Vile Intent] to the [Shattered Sun Pendant of Might]. I am Aldor, and according to the spreadsheet, the latter provides an increase of roughly 5 DPS. My instinct is that this is only a reliable valuation in pure tank and spank encounters -- I feel that on anything else, the proc effect isn't worth nearly as much because something could interrupt your DPS, wasting the effect. Take Tidewalker, for example... as much as he is a tank and spank encounter for the most part, his Watery Grave could remove you from the fight just after the SSPoM procs, and now that 200 AP buff is totally wasted. For this reason, I'm inclined to stick with the guaranteed, yet slightly lower stats of the Choker, that include Hit Rating, as that is always beneficial to me. Am I wrong to do so, or does the proc effect of the SSPoM validate my opinion of it as being situationally superior at best?
If I understand what you mean, then the exact proc mechanics of SSPoM actually make it fairly good for fights with frequent interruptions. Of course it depends on the amount of time on target/off target, but with its high proc chance and internal cooldown, you're likely to proc the Pendant fairly quickly once you start attacking, then triggering the internal cooldown so you can't proc it again for 45s. Of course, if you were to run into a scenario where you're attacking mobs for ~50s at a time, you might run into some issues with wasted uptime.

Also the hit rating on the Choker is worth less on an interrupted fight than it would be in a tank n' spank situation.

Last edited by Arindelest : 04/13/08 at 1:13 PM. Reason: Punctuation
#2483SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Corbet
Originally Posted by Towelette View Post
Your guild needs a new Rogue Class Leader. It pains me to see idiots leading a whole class worth of players for a guild.

Looking at your Armory profile, I see that you have gone with the suggestions made already. Additionally, I would sub in the Shoulderpads of the Stranger for your T5 (possibly) and the Shard of Contempt for your WSC (definitely). If it wouldn't put you at or above the Expertise cap, the SoC is going to be significantly better for you than the WSC. As was said before, there is no "sweet spot" for hit rating, and the 'hit before all else!' myth that just won't die needs to be dispelled already. Even at my gear level (SSC\TK and 2.4 Badge loot) the spreadsheet shows Agility to be worth almost as much as hit rating already (assuming full raid buffs including Kings).
You seem to be mistaken, I don't have WSC. In fact, the item has never dropped for me in past guilds or ever for my current guild. I also never had access to T5 Shoulders either (I was always happy with Shoulderpads of the Stranger and never bothered to get them). I doubt we'll make it back into SSC/TK since we're working on BT (we full clear Hyjal).

The only thing I'm still a little iffy on is the SSO Neck (Aldor) vs. Worgen Necklace. I got the spreadsheet listed in the OP and changed my gear accordingly.
#2484SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Dontmindme
The SSO neck is an upgrade. If anything it gets better with interruptions since they are going to eat into the cooldown more than the proc will get cut off. This would result in a greater effective uptime (uptime vs. time on target) than with an uninterrupted fight.
#2485SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1wow
edit: oops, i was replying to something from 2 pages ago without noticing
#2486SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1drumbum
Originally Posted by Auturgist View Post
Two things:

1] Regarding the current discussion of SnD cycles, I have a question concerning my own current method of handling them. This is what I do: once I get SnD running, I build combo points toward a 5r, and hit that as soon as I have the energy to get Rupture ticking. Now, I start SSing for combo points toward my next finisher, presumably another SnD. At any point in this phase of my cycle, if SnD is about to end, I refresh it for however many CP I have. If I hit 5CP before SnD ends, I will do one of three things, with the following priority: a) if SnD is about to run out, I'll let my energy regen until just before SnD ends and then refresh it, b) if SnD is up with plenty of time and Rupture is about to run out, I'll Rupture as soon as it ends, c) if both SnD and Rupture are up with plenty of time, I'll pop a 5CP Eviscerate for the immediate hard hit it provides. I have always felt this method ensures CP are never wasted inefficiently, even if it sometimes means that Rupture ends and isn't renewed immediately.

Now, my question is: am I correct in thinking that a 5CP Eviscerate to make efficient use of combo points warrants the occasional lapse in Rupture uptime? Is it actually efficient? I know that given the choice between the two, Rupture over Eviscerate whenever possible, provided the full Rupture will tick off on your target... but if the choice is between refreshing a SnD or Rupture that is still "in progress" or blasting the mob with a 5CP Eviscerate, am I right in thinking the Eviscerate is the most damaging use of the CP at the time, even if it means that the following Rupture has to be delayed slightly?
Basically, here's what's happening. You are not "cutting" your SND, which means that the length of your SND is getting longer and longer, because you keep upgrading to a higher rank SND until you're just spitting out 5-pt SNDs all the time. Then, you have so much SND time that you get a 5-pt Rupture off and you have a ton of SND time left. So you build up enough points for a 5-pt Eviscerate. Now, what exactly have you gained? Your SND uptime is still the same (100%) so you haven't gained any damage through your SND uptime. Your Rupture uptime is lower, because you are using Eviscerate sometimes, so you are in the end just substituting Rupture damage for Eviscerate damage. But we already know Rupture is better than Eviscerate, not to mention it costs 10 less energy, so really you aren't actually increasing your damage output.

The reason you don't build up to 5 combo points for a SND is specifically because it allows you to push your Ruptures closer together, without losing any SND uptime. If you are in the situation where your SND has several seconds left, and according to your cycle it's time to refresh SND... your best option really is to refresh SND, not to use another SS for another combo point, because doing so means delaying your next Rupture by about 4 seconds, without actually gaining any benefit from your SND being longer.
#2487SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Latito
The one point I'll add to Drumbum's post above mine is that there IS a point of inflection where Sinister Strike starts to outperform Rupture in terms of Damage per Energy. This is due to weapon dmg, Crit and Armor Pen. All 3 factors increase the damage done by Sinister Strike and do nothing for your Rupture. This point is often achieved with a high level of raid buffs and about the best Pre-sunwell gear. Having a MH Warglaive goes a long way to reaching this point.

Once this point is reached, you want to consider a few things: Since our class is largely limited by energy, you will want to spend every last point of energy on Sinister Strike, exclusively. Therefore, only use finishers when they are "free".. 5-pointers which gaurentee a Relentless Strikes proc to refund your 25 energy. This puts you at a 5s/5r cycle. In practice, you will want to continue building to 5 combo points, pool energy to 65 and then use a finisher, alternating SnD and Rupture. 65 Energy is a decent place to be at because you can afford 1 combat potency proc and 1 energy tick without capping energy. Be careful with pooling energy that you don't allow it to cap out.

Using this technique will often mean refreshing SnD with anywhere from 3-8 seconds left (roughly.. it varies pending on Ruthlessness procs mostly). Even at a higher level of gear which does not quite reach this point of inflection, it often is a decent thing to do anyways. For instance, raid buffed in my current gear, 3s/5 is projected to do a whoping 2 dps more than 5s/5r. Less than 0.1% more dps. However, 5s/5r is a MUCH more sustainable cycle. In actual gameplay you will certainly notice that averages don't always work out. You don't get 0.6 combo points per finisher. You don't get 3 energy per second from combat potency. On average over 15 or 20 or 1000 minutes you might, but not over the 22 to 30 second length of your cycle.

Rupture uptime isn't really the be-all-end-all of rogue dps. Maximizing your time on target, maximizing your SnD time and spending energy efficiently are all more important. When you spend 10 extra energy per cycle to get another 5% uptime on your Rupture.. just remember, that cost you 400 dmg and 1/4 of a combo point.
#2488SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Aldriana
Just to be clear: it's not that SS by itself it more efficient in damage per energy terms than Rupture; in practice, that can't happen. What is true is that the marginal increase in energy efficiency becomes small enough that the loss of energy doesn't justify the increased rupture uptime - that is, the energy efficiency of the cycle component goes down, even though Rupture is theoretically more energy efficient in a vacuum.

Basically, Latito's conclusions about cycles are totally true; it's just that one wants to be a bit careful about stating them, as the reasons are not obvious and easily misunderstood.
#2489SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Auturgist
See, I think what Latito and Aldriana are saying is kinda what I felt instinctively, even if at my gear level I might still be far from that point. As Drumbum was saying about my SnD uptime getting longer, resulting in me substituting Rupture for Eviscerate damage when I have 5CP and plenty of time on SnD... I have always felt like that was okay because I'm guaranteed a refund of 25e due to Relentless Strikes when I spend that 35e on a 5CP Eviscerate. And then any finisher I use after that to keep SnD running or reapply Rupture brings with it at least a small chance of another refund.

I guess I just feel like "cutting" my SnD is counterproductive in terms of maximizing potential damage output and Relentless Strikes energy refunds, and have always felt they yield more DPS than keeping Rupture up simply for the sake of keeping Rupture up... but I know this is my gut feeling, and not necessarily the truth supported by the math.

I can say that doing things this way has, on rare occasion, caused SnD to drop as I misjudged how much time/energy I would have to pop off a 5CP finisher before refreshing SnD. Not often, but sometimes... and I always feel like kicking myself for getting greedy whenever that happens -- luckily, I am (and my guild is) generally overgeared for the content we are currently raiding (SSC) so it never really matters. I'd be pissed if I still let that happen in something like the Brutallus encounter.
#2490SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1kargathia
In the situation where I have 5 CP, and 2 seconds left on SnD, would it be better to rupture and hope for a ruthlessness proc so the standard 1s/5r cycle is maintained (I am currently using 2pc t4) or SnD, and suddenly have to modify around with the next cycle so it fits around a 5CP SnD?

In the first case it stands a 40% chance of having roughly 1-2 seconds SnD downtime, in the second case the cycle suddenly changed, and stands a good chance of SnD having to be refreshed long before it runs out.

I already solved most of this problem by maintaining the rule of thumb that you should rupture at 5 seconds before SnD runs out, but this did not solve all these problems. Multiple times I already had to choose between 3 seconds less of rupture, or 40% chance of 1 second SnD downtime.
#2491SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Aldriana
Originally Posted by Auturgist View Post
I guess I just feel like "cutting" my SnD is counterproductive in terms of maximizing potential damage output and Relentless Strikes energy refunds, and have always felt they yield more DPS than keeping Rupture up simply for the sake of keeping Rupture up... but I know this is my gut feeling, and not necessarily the truth supported by the math.
Well, it's been pretty conclusively shown that at lower gear levels - like, anything short of end-BT loot, basically - cycle compression is the way to go. Particularly at T4 levels of itemization, the high rupture-uptime cycles tend to be the way to go... particularly if you have 2/5 T4 and can pull off 1s5r or 2s5r. By the time one starts to get T6, the advantage becomes lesser - the compressed cycles are somewhat more damage, but as they are a bit riskier it's reasonable to go to 5s5r, particularly if you have other jobs to do during the fight - it's an easier cycle to maintain so allows you to be a bit sloppier and still get things done. But until you get to mid-late T5 at the very least, you almost certainly will be better of doing a compressed high-rupture cycle than anything else.
#2492SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Supa918
With the belt of one hundred deaths, the shard of contempt and weapon expertise I sit at 27 giving me a 6.75% reduction in dodge/parry. With that gear on I'm sitting at 251 hit, but if I swap out the belt for the belt of deep shadow, it changes to 21 expertise and 269 hit with little difference in crit and 10 ap.

Would it be a better fit to keep the one hundred deaths equipped and sacrifice that extra 18 hit for the expertise, or keep the deep shadow equipped. I'm having a hard time deciding without having a few solid WWS parses to look over and compare miss %s on auto attacks/SS.
#2493SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1saedo
Originally Posted by Supa918 View Post
With the belt of one hundred deaths, the shard of contempt and weapon expertise I sit at 27 giving me a 6.75% reduction in dodge/parry. With that gear on I'm sitting at 251 hit, but if I swap out the belt for the belt of deep shadow, it changes to 21 expertise and 269 hit with little difference in crit and 10 ap.

Would it be a better fit to keep the one hundred deaths equipped and sacrifice that extra 18 hit for the expertise, or keep the deep shadow equipped. I'm having a hard time deciding without having a few solid WWS parses to look over and compare miss %s on auto attacks/SS.

What do the spreadsheets tell you?
#2494SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Supa918
Originally Posted by saedo View Post
What do the spreadsheets tell you?
Before this weekend, both of them favored the belt of deep shadow. But I downloaded the two newer versions of the dps sheet and the gear sheet, and now they both favor one hundred deaths. Was just hoping from some insight from a person rather than excel :p

Last edited by Supa918 : 04/13/08 at 8:10 PM.
#2495SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Feist-Mok
Originally Posted by Supa918 View Post
Before this weekend, both of them favored the belt of deep shadow. But I downloaded the two newer versions of the dps sheet and the gear sheet, and now they both favor one hundred deaths. Was just hoping from some insight from a person rather than excel :p
Our insight comes from excel. Why shouldn't yours?

The reason the spreadsheets answers changed is likely because they've both just recieved significant updates to offer support for 2.4 gear as well as all the new procs, etc. etc.
#2496SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Auturgist
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
Well, it's been pretty conclusively shown that at lower gear levels - like, anything short of end-BT loot, basically - cycle compression is the way to go. Particularly at T4 levels of itemization, the high rupture-uptime cycles tend to be the way to go... particularly if you have 2/5 T4 and can pull off 1s5r or 2s5r. By the time one starts to get T6, the advantage becomes lesser - the compressed cycles are somewhat more damage, but as they are a bit riskier it's reasonable to go to 5s5r, particularly if you have other jobs to do during the fight - it's an easier cycle to maintain so allows you to be a bit sloppier and still get things done. But until you get to mid-late T5 at the very least, you almost certainly will be better of doing a compressed high-rupture cycle than anything else.
Currently, my gear spans the T4-T5+ spectrum. I'm still wearing recolored Bloodfang chest, pants, and shoulders from Karazhan, along with T4 helm and gloves, but mixed with some badge and craftable gear that is well above that and much closer to T5/T6 in terms of item level and AEP value, like my new [Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality], [Vanir's Left Fist of Savagery], the [Belt of Deep Shadow], and [Nyn'jah's Tabi Boots]. So I guess I'll stick to tighter cycles and see if that improves my DPS any -- I already tend to lead in melee DPS on most fights, with only a hunter whose gear is of higher level and stats than mine typically beating me on the meters, and not by very much.

Talking about my gear, though, makes me want to bring up an issue that's been worrying me recently. Having switched from my S2 swords to the new badge fists, I lost a lot of Stamina. Couple that with the fact that my next major chest upgrade (until I can get 85 more badges for the [Tunic of the Dark Hour]) is the [Bloodsea Brigand's Vest], which will cost me even more... I've gone from about 8500 health to 7900-ish already, and the idea of losing even more has me a bit worried. Should I really be concerned, or will raid buffs give me all the extra Stamina I'll need for SSC and TK? I'm wondering if it would be worth slapping a [Falling Star] into the blue socket of the Bloodsea Brigand's Vest, should I acquire it, just for the sake of greater survivabilty, as dead rogues deal no DPS. A waste, or worthy compromise? It's not a huge deal, because the badge chest has plenty Stamina to compensate, but like I said, that's still 85 badges away... I'm a bit concerned in the meantime, though.
#2497SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Sneakiest
I reckon you could get yourself [Swiftstrike Bracers] crafted, should be a decent stamina boost and a minor DPS upgrade (perhaphs, I didn't put your gear through the sheets, just guesstimating here). On another notice, wouldn't you be getting the same benefit from dual spec 16/45/0 with a [Merciless Gladiator's Quickblade] and [Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality]? Again, bear in mind I'm just guesstimating here, but it should be a +15 DPS at least off the top of my head, I mean the raw DPS stats on season 2 isn't that far off from Vanir's and any other additional stats will just be eclipsed by sword spec. EDIT: Maybe not an upgrade, but it should be close (I was factoring in my BoS vs Vanir's from when I messed with the sheets about the fists).

That's two relatively easy ways to boost your DPS and your stamina. In regards to an 'optimal' stamina point -- I honestly can't say I remember any specific points. But most of the stuff in SSC/TK has random damage in some form, some fights worse than others. The only fight where you'll specifically need 8500+ HP should be on Naj'entus later on in BT, but I'm honestly a big fan of a solid amount of HP and personally I'd say anything under 8K is just too little (my former orc rogue which I was forced to abandon for a few months due to transfer has ~8.5k HP and it makes me flinch every time I play it nowadays).
#2498SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Snus
Deadly Poison

Due to recent dps upgrades from ZA on my gear, I lost a lot of hit rating. Because of this, I have been seeing deadly poison fall off the bosses more and more. I was wondering if it is ever correct to Shiv a 2 or 3-stack deadly poison in order to save the stack on the target. I remember reading a couple pages back that is is indeed correct to save a 5-stack from falling, but there was no mention of smaller stack sizes. If the answer is no, is there a ever a point where instant poison OH would be better because deadly falls?
(I should note that I don't have any points in Vile Poisons because I'm fist/sword.)

Last edited by Snus : 04/14/08 at 8:25 AM.
#2499SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1coderego
Question about these spreadsheets, the gear and the DPS one...what is the difference? They both seem to do the same thing..
#2500SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Feist-Mok
Originally Posted by coderego View Post
Question about these spreadsheets, the gear and the DPS one...what is the difference? They both seem to do the same thing..


The two sheets use different techniques to model a variety of the factors that affect rogue DPS. They have different maintainers, and in some cases, as a result, produce differing outcomes. Having two spreadsheets is a handy way to cross-check directional results. In general, the gear sheet is regarded as more accurate for those specs and situations which it covers, but the DPS sheet is far more comprehensive.
#2501SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Waywilder
Example of difference of these two spreadsheets would be my dilemma of which pieces from new badge gear to pick first with my badges. Going for legs and chest for certain, but then choosing between fists or belt+ring give me different results as increase to my dps. Aldriana's sheet favors fists by 10 dps, and DPS sheet favors ring+belt by same amount.
#2502SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1koaschten
Personal Opinion, Weapons are our tools of trade, always update your weapons.
#2503SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Towelette
Originally Posted by Waywilder View Post
Example of difference of these two spreadsheets would be my dilemma of which pieces from new badge gear to pick first with my badges. Going for legs and chest for certain, but then choosing between fists or belt+ring give me different results as increase to my dps. Aldriana's sheet favors fists by 10 dps, and DPS sheet favors ring+belt by same amount.
I would agree to definitely replace your chest and legs first, as those will probably be the two biggest upgrades. Considering you already have the Belt of Deep Shadow, I wouldn't bother getting the badge belt until you've gotten everything else you want -- there's not an awful lot of difference between it and BoDS. Personally, I feel the same way as koaschten and would probably upgrade to the badge fist as well. Although, it's not like Talon of Azshara is by any means a bad weapon for where you're at right now.
#2504SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Waywilder
I should've clarified that I had already made my decision which pieces I'm going to pick, and what I posted was only to show an example how spreadsheets differ. Probably should've chosen my words better there, my bad.
#2505SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1nelalas
Originally Posted by Waywilder View Post
Example of difference of these two spreadsheets would be my dilemma of which pieces from new badge gear to pick first with my badges. Going for legs and chest for certain, but then choosing between fists or belt+ring give me different results as increase to my dps. Aldriana's sheet favors fists by 10 dps, and DPS sheet favors ring+belt by same amount.
Be sure that talents are entered appropriately in each sheet when you attempt to compare; Aldriana likes to keep 5/5 Fist Specialization AND 5/5 Sword Specialization entered as defaults in the Rogue Gear Spreadsheet. Your comparison should conceptually look like this:

(Current Spec + Ring/Belt DPS) - (Current Spec and Gear DPS) = Ring/Belt DPS change
(Fist Spec + Fists DPS) - (Current Spec and Gear DPS) = Fists DPS change

You can then compare sheets with regard to Ring/Belt DPS change or Fists DPS change to see any discrepancies.
#2506SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Roguo
Here is a WWS of my guilds latest BT. Check the teron fight since it's on him I popped everything and had 100% dps time.
WWS Loading...

I am currently raiding Sunwell(working on Brutallus) and I have noticed that my dps is not what I should be able to do compared to other rogues with the same gear. I am using the spreadsheet and the rotation it tells me to use, sometimes I try to shorten it down from 4s/5r(this is what it tells me to use) to 3s/5r. So to my question: Should I not be able to do more dps with the gear I have? I always want to max the way I play so I can actually use my gears full potential and I think it's me lacking in this issue. How can I up my dps? I am open to all kinds of advice I can get!

On brutallus I managed to pull out 2063dps at most during the 6 mins the fight lasted(enrage wipe:P)


The World of Warcraft Armory thats my armory. I plan on re-socketing for more hit later on.

Sorry if its fuzzy written and you can't understand what I mean. English is not my native language.

Edit: I got 1 Heroism, the rest are trinket procs.

Last edited by Roguo : 04/14/08 at 5:35 PM.
#2507SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Latito
You don't have a DPS warrior. That's a pretty big no-no and a large contribution to your lower DPS. A BM hunter really shouldn't be in a melee dps group and really do need a feral druid. Neither of your hunters is Surv, so that will lower your personal DPS a bit. Does your shaman totem twist? There's probably lots of other similar little things to look at.

Given your buffs and gear, without using a spreadsheet, you probably did just fine on DPS for Teron.

Remember, a rogue will scale so much with gear and specifically buffs. You could switch to a 5s cycle (drop rupture entirely) and have maybe a 1-200 dps loss. If you lose WF, BS, UR or any other major buff, your dps will suffer by a larger amount. The difference between a 3s/5r and a 5s/5r cycle is general not noticeable in a practical sense as minor variations in RNG crit luck will sway your dps more. Party and Raid buffs will have a much more noticeable effect.
#2508SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Roguo
Thanks for the response and yeah I figured no BS would gimp me a bit. Our warrior was not available today and yes the shaman totem twisted(though I think he messed up on keeping WF up from time to time :/) Thanks again for the response!

Edit: The thing I thought about the most is that the combat dagger rogue(A spec that is supposed to be far behind(?) combat swords) is so close to me on dps and the dmg done.
#2509SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Mideci
Originally Posted by Snus View Post
Due to recent dps upgrades from ZA on my gear, I lost a lot of hit rating. Because of this, I have been seeing deadly poison fall off the bosses more and more. I was wondering if it is ever correct to Shiv a 2 or 3-stack deadly poison in order to save the stack on the target. I remember reading a couple pages back that is is indeed correct to save a 5-stack from falling, but there was no mention of smaller stack sizes. If the answer is no, is there a ever a point where instant poison OH would be better because deadly falls?
(I should note that I don't have any points in Vile Poisons because I'm fist/sword.)
I'm not actually persuaded you should try to micromanage and keep a 5-stack from falling honestly. But even if you are, you should not be shiv-ing at low lvls. Shiv is a pretty terrible damage dealer and uses enough energy you are going to spending energy that could be maintaining slice or rupture. Someone can sit and do the math if they like, but intuitively, I can't see how trying to outguess your poison stack is going to improve your dps.

And, no, for bosses at least, you will be sticking with deadly.
#2510SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
drumbum
Originally Posted by Mideci View Post
I'm not actually persuaded you should try to micromanage and keep a 5-stack from falling honestly. But even if you are, you should not be shiv-ing at low lvls. Shiv is a pretty terrible damage dealer and uses enough energy you are going to spending energy that could be maintaining slice or rupture. Someone can sit and do the math if they like, but intuitively, I can't see how trying to outguess your poison stack is going to improve your dps.

And, no, for bosses at least, you will be sticking with deadly.
The thing is, Shiv (with a sword/mace/fist weapon) isn't as bad of a damage dealer as it gets billed as. It's normalized at 2.4 speed; is affected by Dual Wield Specialization, Surprise Attacks, and Lethality; cannot be dodged; and also has a 20% chance to proc Combat Potency, which effectively reduces its energy cost by 3. So you're really looking at a 32 energy attack with a typical 1.5 speed offhand. It also awards a combo point, so it doesn't hurt your cycle in any way -- in fact it improves it because the combo point came at a reduced energy cost.

In the end it's not a big deal, and it's probably not going to improve your overall DPS enough to justify the amount of attention required to react for it. There's also a relatively high chance for the poison application to be resisted since we have no spell hit. So while most calculations seem to put it at a slight DPS improvement to Shiv to save a deadly stack, it's probably not very practical.

Last edited by drumbum : 04/14/08 at 7:20 PM.
#2511SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Dontmindme
We may have to revisit proc mechanics on the SSO Scryer Neck of Might. I've been told on good authority that the proc scales with attack power (explaining the discrepancy posted for damage). More testing is needed I think.
#2512SourcePosted on <=2.0.0drumbum
Originally Posted by Dontmindme View Post
We may have to revisit proc mechanics on the SSO Scryer Neck of Might. I've been told on good authority that the proc scales with attack power (explaining the discrepancy posted for damage). More testing is needed I think.
I just tested it with two very different amounts of attack power. I didn't really test for long because it was obvious: attack power has no effect. I was able to get the same damage out of procs with almost no gear equipped as with full gear, which happened to be in the 333 to 367 range as suggested by the spell from Wowhead.

Edit: By the way, I did manage to log a hit for 369 damage, which is outside of the range according to the spell. This suggests that Murder does indeed affect the proc, which probably wasn't in question, but at least I can confirm it.
#2513SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Dontmindme
Ok, guess a false alarm then. Weird, a Feral Druid was telling me he was getting 350-500 non-crit damage. Something else must have been going on.
#2514SourcePosted on <=2.0.0drumbum
Did he have any of the S1/S2 PVP feral gear equipped? I know those actually have some +healing on them which in turn gives spell damage. I would imagine the proc might scale with spell damage.
#2515SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Mode
Originally Posted by Dontmindme View Post
Ok, guess a false alarm then. Weird, a Feral Druid was telling me he was getting 350-500 non-crit damage. Something else must have been going on.
From >[Paladin] Retribution DPS Theorycraft<,
Originally Posted by flyingtoastr
The best part is that it gets the percentage modifiers for AW, Misery, Curse of Shadows and Improved Sanctity Aura, so it hits for a good 450 non crit. It also procs almost on cooldown, which is great considering our "slow" attack speed.

Last edited by Mode : Yesterday at 1:36 AM. Reason: I fail at quoting and linking.
#2516SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Shych
I'm sorry im writing this, since i know that there is a spreadsheet for this. but i can't get it to work. And at the moment i'm at work now. Either way, i was wondering dps-wise, what would be the biggest upgrade for me, the badge-vendor daggers or the fists?, i know the fists doesn't have the optimal speed, and from my raids i can't argue that mutilate is behind combat anymore, at least not noticable, especially not with fists since you loose the swordspec.
#2517SourcePosted on <=2.0.0lubricious
Originally Posted by Shych View Post
I'm sorry im writing this, since i know that there is a spreadsheet for this. but i can't get it to work. And at the moment i'm at work now. Either way, i was wondering dps-wise, what would be the biggest upgrade for me, the badge-vendor daggers or the fists?, i know the fists doesn't have the optimal speed, and from my raids i can't argue that mutilate is behind combat anymore, at least not noticable, especially not with fists since you loose the swordspec.
If you're at work you don't need the information right away, so you have plenty of time to read this thread.
You obviously haven't read enough of this thread to fully understand the mechanics of the class, or the various specs.

Also, the letter 'I' is always capitalized when you are referring to yourself. Using lowercase just makes you look stupid.

The information you need is contained within these pages, please read them.
#2518SourcePosted on <=2.0.0darthgrimm
We just killed Brutallus last night but was very close ( 10 ppl standing )

7 healers / 2 tanks / rest dps.


Wow Web Stats

This is our WWS. Frankly i am a bit disapointed in my personal dps as well as the raid's overall performance.

I would appreciate any suggestion on how to improve personal dps as well as raid overall dps.

I was using Elixir of Demonslaying / haste pots ( during BL + BF ) . I do have the BT exalted trinket which is better than the Tsunami Talisman but wasnt using it because i was doing some other things during the fight ( calling out bloodlusts etc ) so i was fealing i dont get 100% out of it ( timing finisher so that i get 3 SS with the proc up etc ).

Used the 20 hit food as well.


I would appreciate comments on gemming / and other things i need to improve. I have seen 2500 dps wws from warglavie rogue who got the same gear ( 3 bloodlusts ) and he was runing 210 hit rating and kinda like the same gear ( better trinkets tho. DST ). I dont know if its my gemming / gear choice or just poor performance.

The World of Warcraft Armory

* my armory *

Last edited by darthgrimm : Yesterday at 3:13 AM.
#2519SourcePosted on <=2.0.0tymoney321
You can definately push out more dps with your gear. I too am doing Brutallus got a DST/Bracers/badge ring/bow since this kill. Wow Web Stats

I would definately recommend using the Ashtongue over Tsunami. Just hold refreshing your finisher until you have 60 energy to make the most out of your trinket.

I noticed you dropped SnD 7 times. Not sure what rotation you are running but 5s5r can give you some slack room if you cannot maintain a tighter rotation.
#2520SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Carnivori
*edit* Actually lets put it like this: Is anyone else feeling that your DPS in WWS reports is lower than it was before 2.4? Before 2.4 my WWS DPS always used to be 100 or so better than it was on in-game meters. Now after 2.4 my DPS is worse in WWS. For example on our brutallus tries(1% and 2% wipes no kill sniff :<) in-game meters were showing me 2,3k+ DPS and on WWS my DPS was only 2,1k-2,18k. Could be that sword spec or wf attacks(or both) aren't showing up correctly or something..?

Last edited by Carnivori : Yesterday at 5:45 AM.
#2521SourcePosted on <=2.0.0darthgrimm
yes i know i can push out more dps.

but i see WWS of 2500 with rogues with same gear i got ( only big difference is DST )

I really dont know how i am 300-500 dps under my target.
#2522SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Capek
Originally Posted by drumbum View Post
I just tested it with two very different amounts of attack power. I didn't really test for long because it was obvious: attack power has no effect. I was able to get the same damage out of procs with almost no gear equipped as with full gear, which happened to be in the 333 to 367 range as suggested by the spell from Wowhead.

Edit: By the way, I did manage to log a hit for 369 damage, which is outside of the range according to the spell. This suggests that Murder does indeed affect the proc, which probably wasn't in question, but at least I can confirm it.
I am all but certain I had a 908 crit in SSC a few nights ago.
If this is in any way an unusual number I will chase up the WWS for you.

EDIT - There it is WWS
Max normal proc - 441, Max crit 908
(I have no knowledge of whether my spell damage may be increased, if at all, by other raid members as I've never had to consider it before.)

Last edited by Capek : Yesterday at 4:45 PM.
#2523SourcePosted on <=2.0.0neg^
Originally Posted by darthgrimm View Post
yes i know i can push out more dps.

but i see WWS of 2500 with rogues with same gear i got ( only big difference is DST )

I really dont know how i am 300-500 dps under my target.
Personal dps is also dependant on overall raid dps. Faster kills gives higher numbers.
#2524SourcePosted on <=2.0.0glowacks
Originally Posted by Carnivori View Post
*edit* Actually lets put it like this: Is anyone else feeling that your DPS in WWS reports is lower than it was before 2.4? Before 2.4 my WWS DPS always used to be 100 or so better than it was on in-game meters. Now after 2.4 my DPS is worse in WWS. For example on our brutallus tries(1% and 2% wipes no kill sniff :<) in-game meters were showing me 2,3k+ DPS and on WWS my DPS was only 2,1k-2,18k. Could be that sword spec or wf attacks(or both) aren't showing up correctly or something..?
This may be an effect of how WWS calculates time in combat. I have had issues before with them calculating DPS by personal time in combat which is largely irrelevant compared to total damage done unless you die well before the boss does. This meant that some classes that took breaks in DPS (Invis/Evocation, long chain of life taps) could show larger values of personal DPS than their contributin to raid DPS because of breaks in their DPS time.

The above may have been fixed, and so WWS calculates combat time as the time from when you enter combat to when you leave combat after the boss has died. However, your mods may still be using something like the above.

That's not to say that WWS isn't buggy some other way.
#2525SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Kumar
I have been having some issues with WWS as well, infact last Leo kill (which was also our first), two of us from the raid decided to do a WWS Report for it and both have different numbers. I still think its the most accurate representation of our DPS though.

And in terms of Leo, what rotation is recommended during the WW phase? For our fist kill, I attempted did a SSx3 followed by Rupture and then run away from WW. Do you also save BF+CDs to see if you get the Inner Demon or not during the Demon phase?

On the last WWS, my DPS on Leo was 750ish, and I beleive with my current gear I could do a lot better.
#2526SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1misada
Hey, with the sword/hemo build you mention, trying it out and for the most part my DPS stayed on par with combat/lethality with only a few exceptions. I was wondering if something like the setup in this Talent Cal would be worth it for raiding, or if the bonus in crit damage isn't worth the loss of the 10 expertise. Really have my pick of gear since i haven't yet committed to a spec, and i dont think that a few lethality points would change my build to drastically, but could use some advice from some well versed rogues out there on the worth of lethality over expertise and if i should move 1 point from lethality to dirty deeds just for the bonus damage to low hp targets.

Another quick question that's just been more of a debated thing among other rogues in my guild is the "deadly poison/instant poison" over "instant poison/instant poison" for raiding. Anyone care to weigh in on their preferences of poisons for most raids?
#2527SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1hedningen
As stated lots of times before the answers to your questions can be found in the thread.

However 10 Experties should outweight the bonus damage from 2p in Lethality and 10% damage increase for the last 35% of a mob should be better then 1p in Lethality.
Deadly poison on off hand is the way to go. Instant poison should only be used on MH if you don't have a shaman in your group giving you WF.
#2528SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Malicat
Hoping for some help...

Ok, I have obsessively read the forums. I have respecced to the combat/swords spec suggested here, the only change I made was I dropped the 3 gouge points into dodge, since I don't use gouge. I have regemmed all of my gear, and swapped a few enchants around (surefooted got dropped for cat's swiftness). I am still consistently 12 on the dam meter in SSC. I use a 2s/5r combo point rotation. My gear is perfectly acceptable for SSC content, I don't have the DST yet, but otherwise it's not bad. I've got the bladefist's breadth trink macroed to my SS so I don't miss popping that one on accident. I've got 1617 attack, 315 hit, and 25.4 crit unbuffed. I use the +20 hit food for food buffs, and the recommended poison/wf from shaman. I also try to pop a haste pot when I use BF to speed that up as well.

I honestly can not figure out why I am doing so poorly on the meters. The trink/ss is the only macro I am using in raid, are there any other tweaks or tricks that I'm missing out on to help out my dam? I would love to test out any recommendations anyone has.

The World of Warcraft Armory (If you want to check it out)

Thanks a ton in advance!

Cat
#2529SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Kram
Originally Posted by Malicat View Post
Ok, I have obsessively read the forums. I have respecced to the combat/swords spec suggested here, the only change I made was I dropped the 3 gouge points into dodge, since I don't use gouge. I have regemmed all of my gear, and swapped a few enchants around (surefooted got dropped for cat's swiftness). I am still consistently 12 on the dam meter in SSC. I use a 2s/5r combo point rotation. My gear is perfectly acceptable for SSC content, I don't have the DST yet, but otherwise it's not bad. I've got the bladefist's breadth trink macroed to my SS so I don't miss popping that one on accident. I've got 1617 attack, 315 hit, and 25.4 crit unbuffed. I use the +20 hit food for food buffs, and the recommended poison/wf from shaman. I also try to pop a haste pot when I use BF to speed that up as well.

I honestly can not figure out why I am doing so poorly on the meters. The trink/ss is the only macro I am using in raid, are there any other tweaks or tricks that I'm missing out on to help out my dam? I would love to test out any recommendations anyone has.

The World of Warcraft Armory (If you want to check it out)

Thanks a ton in advance!

Cat

Your gear is fine, if you had some WWS to link then we could probably get a better idea of what the problem is. It's likely either a case of violating several of the 7 commandments or you just have really good guild dps. If you don't have any WWS to link how much dps do you generally put out on a fight like Tidewalker?
#2530SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
misada
Originally Posted by hedningen View Post
As stated lots of times before the answers to your questions can be found in the thread.

However 10 Experties should outweight the bonus damage from 2p in Lethality and 10% damage increase for the last 35% of a mob should be better then 1p in Lethality.
Deadly poison on off hand is the way to go. Instant poison should only be used on MH if you don't have a shaman in your group giving you WF.
Thank's a ton, I'll respec back out of the link'd build and go for the expertise/dirty deeds hemo spec. One other quick question if i may, given the lack of combat proficiency would it be safe to assume any offhand within reason would be ok? have my eye on a few that are 2.0ish which most combat spec rogues would pass over as it's not amazing MH, and for them not to good OH. I guess the question is, given the ratio given in the original post, what would your idea of the absolute slowest OH be? Like i know every 0.1 faster speed is give or take 5dps worth poison, but where would you draw the line as "rather have a lower dps faster wep"?

Last edited by misada : 04/15/08 at 2:01 PM.
#2531SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Ricard
Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
I have been having some issues with WWS as well, infact last Leo kill (which was also our first), two of us from the raid decided to do a WWS Report for it and both have different numbers. I still think its the most accurate representation of our DPS though.

And in terms of Leo, what rotation is recommended during the WW phase? For our fist kill, I attempted did a SSx3 followed by Rupture and then run away from WW. Do you also save BF+CDs to see if you get the Inner Demon or not during the Demon phase?

On the last WWS, my DPS on Leo was 750ish, and I beleive with my current gear I could do a lot better.
I don't wait to time cooldowns on the chance that I get an inner demon, rather blowing them all in the beginning of the first demon phase. You could arguably wait with Blade Flurry, but then you run the risk of never using it at all. You shouldn't need cooldowns to get your demon down in time.
#2532SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Ricard
Originally Posted by misada View Post
Thank's a ton, I'll respec back out of the link'd build and go for the expertise/dirty deeds hemo spec. One other quick question if i may, given the lack of combat proficiency would it be safe to assume any offhand within reason would be ok? have my eye on a few that are 2.0ish which most combat spec rogues would pass over as it's not amazing MH, and for them not to good OH. I guess the question is, given the ratio given in the original post, what would your idea of the absolute slowest OH be?
Fast off hand attack speed is still good for sword spec procs and deadly poison procs. Unless your 2.0 sword is amazing (and none come to mind), I'd stick with fast OHs.
#2533SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1m1rado
Originally Posted by Malicat View Post
Ok, I have obsessively read the forums. I have respecced to the combat/swords spec suggested here, the only change I made was I dropped the 3 gouge points into dodge, since I don't use gouge. I have regemmed all of my gear, and swapped a few enchants around (surefooted got dropped for cat's swiftness). I am still consistently 12 on the dam meter in SSC. I use a 2s/5r combo point rotation. My gear is perfectly acceptable for SSC content, I don't have the DST yet, but otherwise it's not bad. I've got the bladefist's breadth trink macroed to my SS so I don't miss popping that one on accident. I've got 1617 attack, 315 hit, and 25.4 crit unbuffed. I use the +20 hit food for food buffs, and the recommended poison/wf from shaman. I also try to pop a haste pot when I use BF to speed that up as well.

I honestly can not figure out why I am doing so poorly on the meters. The trink/ss is the only macro I am using in raid, are there any other tweaks or tricks that I'm missing out on to help out my dam? I would love to test out any recommendations anyone has.

The World of Warcraft Armory (If you want to check it out)

Thanks a ton in advance!

Cat
Well, is this the overall damagemeter for the full run? Because trash does not matter, honestly. Clear your damagemeter before every boss, during looting, save the damagemeter under the boss's name.

Any class with AoE completely throws the DM off, warlocks, mages, even hunters to a small degree and rogues with BF, that's a whole lot of damage done to mobs that don't matter in the raid.
#2534SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1misada
Originally Posted by Ricard View Post
Fast off hand attack speed is still good for sword spec procs and deadly poison procs. Unless your 2.0 sword is amazing (and none come to mind), I'd stick with fast OHs.
K, thanks again, I'll do some more poking around as to what all i can find for my OH that's faster. Given that I'm only doing T4 instances at this point, really no fast sword OH come to mind unless i pray our tank isn't looking to upgrade his wep since there's a few tank sword that arnt COMPLETELY useless... guess for now my best bet would be just farm up the honor real fast to get gladiator's quickblade.
#2535SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Casterbridge
Improved EA

Hey guys, this seemed to be a good place to ask this question. My guild currently has a shortage of Tank Warriors, we are trying to correct this, but for now we rarely get on into a raid.

We do occasionally get a fury warrior in there but again its not a sure thing.

That being said I've realised that we've been missing out on our dps by not having Sunders, so I want to start using EA.

I recently picked up the new fist spec so what I'm thinking of doing is droping the 2 points in Vitality and picking up Improved EA. Then I'd use the standard cycle I've been seeing of 5s5ea.

So my questions are this, does this sound like the best place to pick those 2 points up from to grab improved EA (used the spreadsheet and it seems to be)?

Also if we did have a dps warrior present would it still be better for me to use the improved EA over their sunder? (I know improved EA is more armor reduction just not sure which is better for overall dps, as I know my dps will drop by switching out EA for rupture).

Finally am I right in assuming that it is important for as to have either EA or Sunder going for overall raid DPS at our current level of progression (SSC and TK and little bit of headway into Hyjal)?

Thanks
#2536SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Aldriana
Originally Posted by Ricard View Post
I don't wait to time cooldowns on the chance that I get an inner demon, rather blowing them all in the beginning of the first demon phase. You could arguably wait with Blade Flurry, but then you run the risk of never using it at all. You shouldn't need cooldowns to get your demon down in time.
It's certainly possible to get one's demon down with no cooldowns - it's just that doing it with Blade Flurry is a better of way of doing it than having to damage it directly, simply because any damage you have to apply directly to your demon is damage you're not doing to Leotharas. So killing your demon with BF is effectively 10k extra damage on Leotharas that you'd otherwise not have. Meanwhile, a BF used directly on the boss adds perhaps 2000 damage. Thus, it's better to use BF once to kill a demon than it is to use it every time it's up throughout the fight. And in practice, you can use it a couple times for boss DPS and still usually have it up for demons. So I think reserving Blade Flurry to use in conjunction with demons is probably the way to go; however, other cooldowns can just be blown as time and aggro permits, as they should not be necessary for the demons.

Originally Posted by m1rado View Post
Well, is this the overall damagemeter for the full run? Because trash does not matter, honestly. Clear your damagemeter before every boss, during looting, save the damagemeter under the boss's name.

Any class with AoE completely throws the DM off, warlocks, mages, even hunters to a small degree and rogues with BF, that's a whole lot of damage done to mobs that don't matter in the raid.
I disagree.

It's true that some forms of trash are skewed to the advantage of certain classes... but it's also true that some bosses are, so that by itself isn't a reason to discredit trash DPS as a metric. It's certainly the case that you should keep in mind what you're fighting when you're comparing meters, and if there's a lot of AoE it's acceptable to be a little further down... but that's not the same thing as trash being unimportant.

It's also the case that trash is easier than bosses, in general; when you're first learning, you may wipe a couple times on trash, but you'll wipe a lot more on bosses, and so to some extent it's more important to play better on the bosses; however, once the bosses are learned and you're farming the instance... you spend a lot more time on trash than the bosses, so in terms of clearing the instance quickly and cleanly, the effect of bringing your A game on trash is not to be underestimated. And I'm not even talking Hyjal where the trash is actually hard - consider, like, Black Temple. Assuming each boss fight lasts 10 minutes on average (and most of them don't - Illidan is the only one that will be reliably longer than that for most guilds farming BT, and Akama + Teron are both significantly shorter), that's still only an hour and a half spent on trash on a clear that's probably 4 hours even if you're moving quickly... meaning that over half the time - and generally more like 2/3 if not 3/4 - is spent on trash. Thus, if you're looking for quick, clean, problem-free raids... trash is at least as important as bosses. And even before the instance is farmed - every minute you spend doing trash is a minute you're not learning new bosses.

Basically: while it is true that trash is a little less critical than bosses, and if you need to go afk for a few minutes trash is certainly the time to do it, it's also true that trash is not an excuse to slack off. It is important, it is something you want to do and do well, and maximizing your DPS on it does contribute to the raid. It might not be a fair metric between classes in all cases, but it's still worth doing your best on. In short: trash matters.
#2537SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1IceDrake
Originally Posted by Casterbridge View Post
Hey guys, this seemed to be a good place to ask this question. My guild currently has a shortage of Tank Warriors, we are trying to correct this, but for now we rarely get on into a raid.

We do occasionally get a fury warrior in there but again its not a sure thing.

That being said I've realised that we've been missing out on our dps by not having Sunders, so I want to start using EA.

I recently picked up the new fist spec so what I'm thinking of doing is droping the 2 points in Vitality and picking up Improved EA. Then I'd use the standard cycle I've been seeing of 5s5ea.

So my questions are this, does this sound like the best place to pick those 2 points up from to grab improved EA (used the spreadsheet and it seems to be)?

Also if we did have a dps warrior present would it still be better for me to use the improved EA over their sunder? (I know improved EA is more armor reduction just not sure which is better for overall dps, as I know my dps will drop by switching out EA for rupture).

Finally am I right in assuming that it is important for as to have either EA or Sunder going for overall raid DPS at our current level of progression (SSC and TK and little bit of headway into Hyjal)?

Thanks
If you guys do NOT have a warrior tanking. It would be ok to get imp EA... Just know your dps will suffer from popping it so I would assign this task to your most poorly geared rogue.

If you do have a warrior tanking and you accidentally pop imp EA, he will want to stab you. I have a level 70 prot warrior alt and when you pop Expose Armor he cant Sunder or Devastate which gimps his threat by a lot. But hopefully you already know that.

Finally the amount of dmg increase will depend on how much physical DPS you have in your raid group. If your composite is mostly casters it might not be worth it. However if you are melee and hunter heavy it might be good.

At the end of the day you will be sacrificing your dps for the good of the guild. You have to ask yourself these questions when considering if it is worth it.
#2538SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Aldriana
Originally Posted by Casterbridge View Post
Hey guys, this seemed to be a good place to ask this question. My guild currently has a shortage of Tank Warriors, we are trying to correct this, but for now we rarely get on into a raid.

We do occasionally get a fury warrior in there but again its not a sure thing.

That being said I've realised that we've been missing out on our dps by not having Sunders, so I want to start using EA.

I recently picked up the new fist spec so what I'm thinking of doing is droping the 2 points in Vitality and picking up Improved EA. Then I'd use the standard cycle I've been seeing of 5s5ea.

So my questions are this, does this sound like the best place to pick those 2 points up from to grab improved EA (used the spreadsheet and it seems to be)?

Also if we did have a dps warrior present would it still be better for me to use the improved EA over their sunder? (I know improved EA is more armor reduction just not sure which is better for overall dps, as I know my dps will drop by switching out EA for rupture).

Finally am I right in assuming that it is important for as to have either EA or Sunder going for overall raid DPS at our current level of progression (SSC and TK and little bit of headway into Hyjal)?

Thanks
1) If you're specced straight swords, it's better to drop 2 points of poison talents. If you're specced hybrid Mace/Sword or Fist/Sword, it's better to make another rogue, who *is* specced straight swords, drop 2 points of poison talents and take Imp EA. If you don't have any regular sword rogues... um, I guess dropping Vitality is as good as anything.

2) Yes, it's better to use Imp EA than Sunders... if you can. On bosses where damage is fairly sustained, Imp EA is a great choice. But it does take somewhat longer to apply, so on a fight with many interruptions (like, say, Felmyst), it might be better to use Sunders anyway.

3) Yes, you very much want to have either Sunders or Imp EA up on every boss, or all your physical DPS will be horribly gimped.
#2539SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1IceDrake
Ooops accidental double post
#2540SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Shaker
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
It's certainly possible to get one's demon down with no cooldowns - it's just that doing it with Blade Flurry is a better of way of doing it than having to damage it directly, simply because any damage you have to apply directly to your demon is damage you're not doing to Leotharas. So killing your demon with BF is effectively 10k extra damage on Leotharas that you'd otherwise not have. Meanwhile, a BF used directly on the boss adds perhaps 2000 damage. Thus, it's better to use BF once to kill a demon than it is to use it every time it's up throughout the fight. And in practice, you can use it a couple times for boss DPS and still usually have it up for demons. So I think reserving Blade Flurry to use in conjunction with demons is probably the way to go; however, other cooldowns can just be blown as time and aggro permits, as they should not be necessary for the demons.
The way I did this was to always just use BF, if it was up, right before the demons were cast - that way if you get a demon, it gets hit by the BF, but you're also just using BF pretty regularly, which hedges your bets.
#2541SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Aldriana
Originally Posted by Shaker View Post
The way I did this was to always just use BF, if it was up, right before the demons were cast - that way if you get a demon, it gets hit by the BF, but you're also just using BF pretty regularly, which hedges your bets.
Agreed... it's just been a while since I've done the fight, so I couldn't remember if the spacing between demon phases was such that it was up every time. I seem to recall having troubles with it not being cooled in time if I got demons twice in a row.

Originally Posted by IceDrake View Post
Finally the amount of dmg increase will depend on how much physical DPS you have in your raid group. If your composite is mostly casters it might not be worth it. However if you are melee and hunter heavy it might be good.

At the end of the day you will be sacrificing your dps for the good of the guild. You have to ask yourself these questions when considering if it is worth it.
To clarify on this point: no, it's pretty much always worth it. When one runs the numbers one finds that it's actually a *personal* DPS gain to use 5s5a over a normal rupture cycle with a dps warrior sundering for many rogues, and even for the ones where it isn't the DPS loss is relatively small - the number of physical DPSers in the raid required to make it worthwhile is basically never more than 2. And given that a caster-heavy raid will still tend to have at least 4 or 5 physical DPS, all of whom get that level of benefit - as will the tank, which improves his aggro - one finds that it's pretty much always a net DPS gain.

As I say: Imp EA is worth it, provided the fight is such that you can maintain near-100% uptime. If you starting letting it drop, or need time to restack it regularly, the benefit vanishes in a hurry. But if you can keep it up nearly all the time... it's very much worth it, regardless of raid composition.
#2542SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Shaker
The cycles are 1m45s apart, so technically you will miss one in 3 inner demons, were you to get demon'd every time.

You generally pop it 5s before demons pop when he starts casting Inisidous Whisper the first time, giving you 10s of BF on the demon (which should be roughly enough to kill it), then BF pops up about 10s into the next whisper, again giving you 10s to DPS demon and Leo with BF up (though you probably want to hit the demon for a few seconds before popping BF to make sure he dies). 3rd whisper you're on cooldown, and you're good to go for the 4th demon phase if there is one. There's still a 5/24 chance that you're chosen for demon on the one time you're on cooldown, but in general I think this was my best approach.
#2543SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Casterbridge
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
To clarify on this point: no, it's pretty much always worth it. When one runs the numbers one finds that it's actually a *personal* DPS gain to use 5s5a over a normal rupture cycle with a dps warrior sundering for many rogues, and even for the ones where it isn't the DPS loss is relatively small - the number of physical DPSers in the raid required to make it worthwhile is basically never more than 2. And given that a caster-heavy raid will still tend to have at least 4 or 5 physical DPS, all of whom get that level of benefit - as will the tank, which improves his aggro - one finds that it's pretty much always a net DPS gain.

As I say: Imp EA is worth it, provided the fight is such that you can maintain near-100% uptime. If you starting letting it drop, or need time to restack it regularly, the benefit vanishes in a hurry. But if you can keep it up nearly all the time... it's very much worth it, regardless of raid composition.
Ah thank you, I thought as much.

As to the earlier question about spec, I use to the only rogue with sword sword, however I recentaly picked up the fist from badges and went the 16/45 route. I used your spread sheet and saw that I lost the least amount of dps dropping vitality (only a couple of points really) so I'm hoping my overall dps loss will be minimal, if at all, and the raid benefit will be that much higher.

I will keep in mind that point about a 100% uptime, I'm guessing some of the SSC fights would make this quite difficult.
#2544SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Kumar
Originally Posted by Shaker View Post
The cycles are 1m45s apart, so technically you will miss one in 3 inner demons, were you to get demon'd every time.

You generally pop it 5s before demons pop when he starts casting Inisidous Whisper the first time, giving you 10s of BF on the demon (which should be roughly enough to kill it), then BF pops up about 10s into the next whisper, again giving you 10s to DPS demon and Leo with BF up (though you probably want to hit the demon for a few seconds before popping BF to make sure he dies). 3rd whisper you're on cooldown, and you're good to go for the 4th demon phase if there is one. There's still a 5/24 chance that you're chosen for demon on the one time you're on cooldown, but in general I think this was my best approach.
That sounds like a good idea, popping BF+Other Haste CDs 4-5s before Leo casts the Whispers.

One of the big problems I had on a few of the Inner Demons I got was that the Inner Demon would end up moving behind me and I would have to turn around and as a result any CDs I used are wasted and Leo is not getting DPSed though. Any idea why the Inner Demon ends up going behind me, or do I need to stand at the absolute edge of the hitbox to avoid that?

Also, coming back to my previous question, during the Human Phase, do you conserve CPs to immediately SnD when Demon Phase starts or do you use 3pt/4pt Ruptures (which I have been doing)?

Thanks
#2545SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Rivkah
Originally Posted by Corbet View Post
Pretty cool idea, but why not allow the user to enter the WoWhead item ID and automatically calculate it?
I considered doing that but I couldn't find an easy way to parse the Wowhead item data. If you know a good resource for that I can add it in. There's also the issue of not knowing what gems people would use for that, although I can apply some logic to it. Mainly I threw the calculator together for my personal use, but I don't mind improving it if I can find an easy way to do so.
#2546SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Shaker
Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
That sounds like a good idea, popping BF+Other Haste CDs 4-5s before Leo casts the Whispers.

One of the big problems I had on a few of the Inner Demons I got was that the Inner Demon would end up moving behind me and I would have to turn around and as a result any CDs I used are wasted and Leo is not getting DPSed though. Any idea why the Inner Demon ends up going behind me, or do I need to stand at the absolute edge of the hitbox to avoid that?

Also, coming back to my previous question, during the Human Phase, do you conserve CPs to immediately SnD when Demon Phase starts or do you use 3pt/4pt Ruptures (which I have been doing)?

Thanks
Personally I didn't worry too much about human phase DPS, but given that you can only DPS safely for about 10 seconds, I would go in (100e), SS(60e, 0s), SnD(35e, 1s), SS(15e, 2s), SS(15e, 6s), SS(15e, 10ish seconds), and just drop the rupture for what I had at the time. If I got another Combo Point from the rupture, it was used on the way in for SND, which just gave a little bit more bleed damage during the whirlwind.

Also, you can still hit the demon while it's behind you as long as it's within range. If you're not hitting it with BF, you just need to shift a bit to one side or the other while it's not casting to wiggle it.
#2547SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Ferrat
Off Subject

I know most people are saying that the Ashtounge tailsman doesn't compare to the Shard of contempt. But i really saw another rogue pull away from me when i started using the shard over the Ashtounge tailsman. And i think i know the reason but was wondering if someone that knew how to manipulte the sheet could help me out with it. I pop my cooldowns while the Tailsman is up. I pop my cool downs at the start of a 5 point rupture after saving up some energy), this means that i can usually get to a 4point SnD (or 5point SND with AR popped for the guarnteed proc of the Ashtounge) refresh and pop it earlier then i would normally to give me a 80% chance to keep the Tailsman up while BF and Haste pots are still in effect. I know this is what the other rogue in my guild does and it seems the spreadsheets do an average of uptime, which only makes sense for them to function that way. And i agree that the average on the shard might be better but i find it much easier to control procs on the Tailsman. I make sure that it is proc'd during my other cooldows which i am sure most people do. For me it seems to really help. Am I just doing something wrong with the shard? am I not paying enough attention to use cooldowns when it procs or is the tailsman just undervalued because of the averages in the Spreadsheet. And also if this has been covered before i am sorry. But I would really like to get this straightened away for our next attemps on Brutallus.

Oh and I know people like to armory people so my toons name is mistrtumnus and i know i need to change one gem.

Thanks in advance for the help
#2548SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1ryo
For some reason I was under the impression that when using a Fist/Sword build the offhand sword spec procs triggered a main hand attack. Checking WWS logs shows that it's always an offhand attack that follows the the "... gains one extra attack through sword specialisation" message, has this always been the case or is this a somewhat recent change?
#2549SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Feist-Mok
Originally Posted by ryo View Post
For some reason I was under the impression that when using a Fist/Sword build the offhand sword spec procs triggered a main hand attack. Checking WWS logs shows that it's always an offhand attack that follows the the "... gains one extra attack through sword specialisation" message, has this always been the case or is this a somewhat recent change?
If this is true and undocumented it's a significant nerf to sword spec and */sword hybrid specs. Guess I can try to park my rogue in diremaul overnight for some testing if someone doesn'tt contradict this.
#2550SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Vulajin
Originally Posted by ryo View Post
For some reason I was under the impression that when using a Fist/Sword build the offhand sword spec procs triggered a main hand attack. Checking WWS logs shows that it's always an offhand attack that follows the the "... gains one extra attack through sword specialisation" message, has this always been the case or is this a somewhat recent change?
Originally Posted by Feist-Mok View Post
If this is true and undocumented it's a significant nerf to sword spec and */sword hybrid specs. Guess I can try to park my rogue in diremaul overnight for some testing if someone doesn'tt contradict this.
It's not undocumented, it's just the peculiar way in which WoW's combat log reports sword spec swings. The "you gain 1 extra attack..." notification always appears in the log prior to the swing that causes the proc.
#2551SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1ryo
Originally Posted by Vulajin View Post
It's not undocumented, it's just the peculiar way in which WoW's combat log reports sword spec swings. The "you gain 1 extra attack..." notification always appears in the log prior to the swing that causes the proc.
Ah that makes sense then, thanks for clearing it up!
#2552SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Monistatus
Expertise Question

So I'm currently using Belt of One Hundred Deaths, and Shard of Contempt, which effectively puts me over the expertise cap (as a human).

I'm not exalted with Ashtongue yet, so Lethality trinket isn't an option. Other trinket is WSC.

The AP proc on SoC is really awesome, and I'd like to keep it.

Can I safely forgo the 2 points in Weapon Expertise and throw them somewhere else? I'm thinking 5/5 VP would be a nice little boost to my DP stacks, and I'd still have another point to play with (I personally like the Stun/Fear resist, but that's just me).

Any human rogues with some experience on this?
#2553SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Invictus
What happens when SnD drops

So in reading this thread, I see it frequently mentioned that you should never let SnD drop, but I am curious why. From all the work Aldriana and Vulajin have done I believe it is so, but I guess what I am looking for is what exactly happens in that potentially very small window of time that makes it worse than waiting for another combo point to increase the chance of a relentless strikes proc.

Is it that when the weapon speed slows down and then speeds up again you can somehow lose a swing? This is the only thing I can think of.
#2554SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Valize
Re-Gemming

Hey Guys,

<-- First time poster, long time reader.

I just have a few conclusions that I would like confirmed by the established rogue community here on EJ. Many of the High-end rogues (including myself lewl) on our server had an in-prompt-to Theorycrafting session the other night. In it, we mostly discussed how to Gem our T6 Quality gear to squeeze the most out of it. I was a proprietor of the "Stay @ a decent amount of Hit (250-270 ~ ish), and stack the crap out of agility". Throughout the night, the evidence that was brought forth about stacking just Hit in our sockets was frankly undeniable. In my gear, spreadsheets showed a 51 dps increase just by regemming (I know spreadsheets should be taken with a grain of salt, however). Not only that, but we found that keeping 4 pc T6 (Helm, Gloves, Shoulders, Chest) and using the new Badge leggings was on par with 4 pc T6 (Gloves, Shoulders, Chest, Legs) and Cursed Vision of Sargeras. However IMO the leggings version is better, solely because we found out that with the Badge Leg set, that you could actually hit the mythical Hit cap.

CTProfiles.net: World of Warcraft Profiles � Valize � Main

Anyway, I am getting away from my point. I would just like to know if you guys agree (generally) that gemming your T6 gear with +10 Hit Rating gems will give bigger DPS gains than Staying around 250-270 hit and stacking Agility.
#2555SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1tymoney321
Hit is the best dps increase point for point. Agility is pretty close though. It is common knowledge that you should always gem for +10 hit. The exception is if you continue gemming in this manor in sunwell, you will pass the hit cap. Thus many raiders are gemming their new items with +10 agility. Either way, gemming for agi or hit will not make or break your dps, agility and hit are still relatively close.
#2556SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Aldriana
Originally Posted by Invictus View Post
So in reading this thread, I see it frequently mentioned that you should never let SnD drop, but I am curious why. From all the work Aldriana and Vulajin have done I believe it is so, but I guess what I am looking for is what exactly happens in that potentially very small window of time that makes it worse than waiting for another combo point to increase the chance of a relentless strikes proc.

Is it that when the weapon speed slows down and then speeds up again you can somehow lose a swing? This is the only thing I can think of.
What happens when SnD drops? You lose damage, that's what. Say you let SnD drop for a second. Any attacks made in that interval will not be hasted, so on average a 1-second SnD drop will cost you a couple hundred damage. Now, can this be worth it? Theoretically, yes... but only if whatever you're doing instead generates more damage than that gap in SnD, and in practice it turns out that the SnD damage is usually better than other available options. It's not a fundamental truth of the universe - it's just a rule of thumb. Usually keeping SnD up is better than letting it drop.

I'd also note that your example of what you could do with a drop in SnD downtime is fallacious. Usually one is running a cycle - 3s5r, 4s5r, whatever - that is designed to keep 100% SnD uptime. So if your normal cycle is 4s5r, but you squeeze in an extra SS to get the Relentless Strikes proc... well, now you're doing 5s5r. And if 5s5r is better, why weren't you doing that in the first place? And if it's not, why are you starting now?

Originally Posted by Valize View Post
<snip>
However IMO the leggings version is better, solely because we found out that with the Badge Leg set, that you could actually hit the mythical Hit cap.
<snip>
Anyway, I am getting away from my point. I would just like to know if you guys agree (generally) that gemming your T6 gear with +10 Hit Rating gems will give bigger DPS gains than Staying around 250-270 hit and stacking Agility.
First off, I'd note that hitting the hit cap is not a good thing. In fact, if you're actually hitting it (as opposed to merely getting close to it), it's a bad thing. Personally, given two gear sets of otherwise comparable quality, I generally prefer the one with less hit.

Second: yes, gemming for hit tends to be the way to go - but only narrowly so, and only until you need to start thinking about the hit cap. Replacing a 10 agi gem with a 10 hit gem will usually be a DPS gain on the order of 1 DPS for sustained fights. Replacing all your gems with the most hit-heavy alternative I can see giving maybe 10 DPS. If you're seeing more than that in the spreadsheet, it is likely that there's a bug in the sheet.

Also, (and people will disagree with me on this, so take it with a grain of salt), I'm a believer in keeping hit a little lower - in particular, down around the hit cap for level 70-72 mobs, assuming it is possible to do so without losing too much DPS elsewhere, so I generally socket more agi and agi/hit gems than some people do... see this post for a more detailed discussion of my reasoning.
#2557SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Invictus
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
What happens when SnD drops? You lose damage, that's what. Say you let SnD drop for a second. Any attacks made in that interval will not be hasted, so on average a 1-second SnD drop will cost you a couple hundred damage. Now, can this be worth it? Theoretically, yes... but only if whatever you're doing instead generates more damage than that gap in SnD, and in practice it turns out that the SnD damage is usually better than other available options. It's not a fundamental truth of the universe - it's just a rule of thumb. Usually keeping SnD up is better than letting it drop.

I'd also note that your example of what you could do with a drop in SnD downtime is fallacious. Usually one is running a cycle - 3s5r, 4s5r, whatever - that is designed to keep 100% SnD uptime. So if your normal cycle is 4s5r, but you squeeze in an extra SS to get the Relentless Strikes proc... well, now you're doing 5s5r. And if 5s5r is better, why weren't you doing that in the first place? And if it's not, why are you starting now?
I tend to be a micro manager when it comes to my energy regen, and alternate between a 4s5r and 5s5r depending on combat potency procs, AR, heroism, BF, etc. However, there are times when SnD is going to drop, but in 1 second I can get another CP and use it for an increased chance/guaranteed chance for a relentless strikes proc. It feels like the payoff is worth it, but again I didn't know what happens during that drop. If the answer is just that I lose the haste from SnD during the downtime that's what I needed.

EDIT: Another thought (not that you could ever time it), but with a downtime of 1 second it seems there is a good chance it wouldn't affect your MH white damage at all, if you were dropping it early enough on the swing timer that you could restore the hasted speed before the swing time was up.
#2558SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Invictus
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
Also, (and people will disagree with me on this, so take it with a grain of salt), I'm a believer in keeping hit a little lower - in particular, down around the hit cap for level 70-72 mobs, assuming it is possible to do so without losing too much DPS elsewhere, so I generally socket more agi and agi/hit gems than some people do... see this post for a more detailed discussion of my reasoning.
I like doing this as well as there are other buffs to take into account. We have a draenei warrior in our group on occasion, and we used to have a Moonkin with imp FF (still have the Moonkin, just not the imp FF). Those two buffs give you 4%, and another 1.27% from spicy hot talbuk. With my current HR at 269 (17.06 hit%) with just the draenei warr (and no food or moonkin) that puts me at 23.06% - just about perfect for trash. On boss fights I may swap in similarly rated AEP gear but with more hit and eat Talbuk instead of Mudfish. Although I'd prefer to have our Moonkin respec, which would still keep me under the hitcap for bosses.
#2559SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Houseplant
As it stands right now it seems that I will not have a chance at getting a DST because my guild hasn't done Gruul's Lair in over a month and I don't we have any plans on going back there anytime soon.

I am currently working on getting the Shard of Contempt and should have it by next week, but my question is how much DPS do I actually lose from not having a DST and what should I do to compensate for not having one?
#2560SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Vulajin
Originally Posted by Houseplant View Post
As it stands right now it seems that I will not have a chance at getting a DST because my guild hasn't done Gruul's Lair in over a month and I don't we have any plans on going back there anytime soon.

I am currently working on getting the Shard of Contempt and should have it by next week, but my question is how much DPS do I actually lose from not having a DST and what should I do to compensate for not having one?
You should get the next best trinket? You lose maybe 20 DPS, which sucks, and you'll pretty much never find a genuine replacement for the thing, but it's hardly killer. I'd estimate (completely without any hard evidence to back myself up) that 25-50% of raiding rogues beyond T4 don't have a Dragonspine Trophy.
#2561SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1koaschten
Originally Posted by Invictus View Post
... we used to have a Moonkin with imp FF (still have the Moonkin, just not the imp FF). ...
Just a note, how can that Moonkin hold his raidspot when not supporting as well as he can as a hybrid? Does he do that much more DPS to outvalue imp FF? I doubt that.
#2562SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1drumbum
Originally Posted by Invictus View Post
EDIT: Another thought (not that you could ever time it), but with a downtime of 1 second it seems there is a good chance it wouldn't affect your MH white damage at all, if you were dropping it early enough on the swing timer that you could restore the hasted speed before the swing time was up.
That's not true. Even if the SND downtime occurred in-between swings, it would still increase the time gap between the two swings. The "swing timer" will dynamically slow down right when SND falls, and speed up again when SND is reapplied. Therefore, even the tiniest downtime of SND *will* translate into a DPS loss -- and as Aldriana already pointed out, most of the time, it's not worthwhile to let it drop given other alternatives.
#2563SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Shaker
Now I haven't personally tested this, but one of our more methodical people was talking about it the other night, and he said swing time was locked at the start of the swing, so technically, if you had SnD drop for .5s while both weapons had already swung, it wouldn't affect DPS at all.

I could be wrong about the swing speed thing, but it really doesn't matter because there's no realistic way to be able to alter the cycle while anticipating the swing timer for two independently swinging weapons with enough regularity to make it a DPS increase.
#2564SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Aldriana
I think Shaker is right. My understanding is that when you make a swing, it determines based on your current haste value when the next swing should happen, and anything that happens in between doesn't matter. Now, this in theory this can lead to all sorts of interesting optimizations about allowing brief drops of SnD and the like; in practice, weaving this between attacks when you're dual wielding (and one of your weapons is attacking more than once a second anyway) falls in the same category as trying to land Sinister Strikes during the Windfury buff - it's sort of a cool trick, and if you could pull it off reliably it might be an ever-so-slight DPS increase... but it's just totally impractical to actually do it in a raid.
#2565SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1drumbum
Hmm. Well, the reason I suspected that it worked this way is due to the findings of the boss parry mechanics. When a boss parries an attack, his swing timer is basically hasted at the point where it was, such that if the boss parries an attack immediately before his next swing, the difference would be small; while if he parried right after an attack, the next attack would come quite a bit sooner.

I figured this same mechanic would be in place for player swings as well, although I suppose this could be an entirely different mechanic entirely. However, this does show that the game is capable of more or less adjusting swing timers on the fly, so it seems logical they could implement it for players as well.
#2566SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Aldriana
Well, I do know that parry haste applies to player attacks as well. That said, parry haste has always struck me as sort of a one-off in terms of melee mechanics - it's not clear to me it exists, and it works unlike just about anything else. What I really meant is that changes in haste rating between swings tend not to recalculate the time of the next swing, but I haven't honestly tested that so I can't swear as to whether it's true.
#2567SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Invictus
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
I think Shaker is right. My understanding is that when you make a swing, it determines based on your current haste value when the next swing should happen, and anything that happens in between doesn't matter. Now, this in theory this can lead to all sorts of interesting optimizations about allowing brief drops of SnD and the like; in practice, weaving this between attacks when you're dual wielding (and one of your weapons is attacking more than once a second anyway) falls in the same category as trying to land Sinister Strikes during the Windfury buff - it's sort of a cool trick, and if you could pull it off reliably it might be an ever-so-slight DPS increase... but it's just totally impractical to actually do it in a raid.
Yeah I was hoping this was the case (if I understood correctly). Not so much for planning on a direct DPS increase, but that the occasional short downtime of SnD wasn't more than losing the faster swing time during that interval. So to overly simplify it, say I had a 2.6 speed weapon. With just SnD, that puts me at 2.06. If I swing, and SnD falls off, there is no impact to MH damage until I arrive at +2.06 from last swing. By then, if I don't have it up again, I start increasing the time to next swing up to 2.6.

It makes sense that this is how it would work, as resetting the swing timer every time you gained/faded a haste buff...you'd lose a lot between mongoose and DST procs coming and going.

EDIT: Nevermind, I did misunderstand what you said
#2568SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Capek
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
Also, (and people will disagree with me on this, so take it with a grain of salt), I'm a believer in keeping hit a little lower - in particular, down around the hit cap for level 70-72 mobs, assuming it is possible to do so without losing too much DPS elsewhere, so I generally socket more agi and agi/hit gems than some people do... see this post for a more detailed discussion of my reasoning.
Your linked post was quite eye-opening to me and I intend to follow suit with my gemming/gearing.
It sounds like you're suggesting a 'sweet spot'. Perhaps the section from the OP should be changed to reflect this, at least when considering a weighted, not offensive, perspective.

Originally Posted by VULAJIN
The hit and expertise caps are NOT magic numbers that every rogue [or any rogue] must reach. Whether you're in T4 or T6, there are NO MAGIC NUMBERS for how much hit or expertise rating you "should" have. There is no special benefit to being capped with either stat, nor is there any special benefit to reaching an arbitrary threshold. The purpose of listing the caps here is so that you do not accidentally overshoot either cap by equipping too much hit rating or expertise rating. Always remember that any hit rating or expertise rating beyond the cap will have zero positive effect on your DPS.
#2569SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Aldriana
Well, the point is, "sweet spots" really only exist when you're talking about tuning final gear. When it comes to gemming, you have the flexibility between hit and agi and can tune where you land. What Vulajin's post is intended to discourage - and rightly so - is the notion that magic numbers of hit and expertise are somehow more important than what pieces of gear are actually good. It doesn't happen as much anymore, but there was a time when it was not uncommon to hear statements like "the absolute best amount of hit to have is 273, so I'm going wear otherwise inferior gear to get to that number" - which is bad. The point (and maybe this can be clarified in the official writeup, but nevertheless) is that the correct train of thought in itemization is as follows:

1) Select the best piece of gear that you have available to you for each slot.
2) Make sure that this doesn't have any obvious issues, and correct any that appear. For instance, if your best options are Vashj Belt, Slayer's Boots, and Shard of Contempt, you need to figure out which one has the best alternative, since using all 3 puts you in a bad place relative to the Expertise cap.
3) Socket with agi and hit to wind up in your favorite place of the itemization space. Pretty much any point of balance in agi and hit is fine, but if you're truly optimizing there are subtle things you can do to squeeze out a bit more advantage.

The key point in this is that relative to the first 2 points, the third one is a trivial optimization. Any combination of hit and agi is pretty much fine; hence, addressing details at that level will more likely confuse people than provide meaningful improvements. Hence, the current wording is designed to make the first 2 points clear - pick your best items, and don't go over the cap - as they're really the important two. And given that this is the Roguecraft 101 thread, I think that's the right approach. When we have the "Extremely subtle details of Rogue DPS" thread, we can start including optimizations like "figure out where you are relative to vitality and BoK breakpoints".
#2570SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Vulajin
Originally Posted by Capek View Post
Your linked post was quite eye-opening to me and I intend to follow suit with my gemming/gearing.
It sounds like you're suggesting a 'sweet spot'. Perhaps the section from the OP should be changed to reflect this, at least when considering a weighted, not offensive, perspective.
Not in the sense that most people tend to suggest "sweet spots" for hit rating. Aldriana simply suggests that it makes a bit of sense to cap yourself at the hit cap for level 72 mobs, rather than the one for boss mobs. The reasoning is that at most gear levels, the value of 5 agility is reasonably close to the value of 5 hit rating anyway, but the agility will have value on all types of mobs, whereas hit rating beyond the level 72 hit cap only applies to the boss itself, not any trash nor any boss adds.

(edit: f,b)
#2571SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Shaker
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
When we have the "Extremely subtle details of Rogue DPS" thread, we can start including optimizations like "figure out where you are relative to vitality and BoK breakpoints".
Just what we need, racially sensitive topics.

I kid, I kid....
#2572SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
excelion
Hi everyone, long timer lurker first time poster in need of some assistance. I'm sorry to interrupt your discussion regarding weapon swings, but this shouldn't be much of a distraction. I'm in a quite casual guild that has just started out in 25man, we've downed Maulgar, Gruul, Magtheridon and gotten Void Reaver to 1%, we also do the 3rd timed chest in Zul'Aman.

Despite being far far more casual than most of you guys I really enjoy theorycrafting and utilizing the information and spreadsheets available to improve my raid performance. Even though I'm usually our best DPSer in most fights I'm not satisfied. We have quite a few hybrids (enh shamans, a ret paladin, a moonkin every now and then) and they're doing pretty much the same damage as I am. Because of this it feels like I'm not worth taking to raids since I don't contribute half as much as they do in the form of buffs and utility.

I have a good rotation going, use hit food and agility elixirs every try in addition to spamming drums of battle, but for me to feel satisfied I'd like to be ahead of the hybrids by a larger margin. Do rogues just scale slowly, is my gear too bad, is it daggers fault or might it be a learn2play-issue? Any suggestions you throw my way would be greatly appreciated.

Last edited by excelion : 04/16/08 at 6:52 PM.
#2573SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Stoux
AR what doyou do with the energy?

I am am the classic 20/41 Combat Sword build I have 2 tier 4 bonus and I am tring to figure out how to best use my AR.
So I am looking for some advice and what other use to maximise the extra energy.

I usally drop it right after a 5 point Rupture then build up a 5 point snd then drop a 5 point rupture then build up a 5 point Evis then start my normal 1 SnD 5 Rup. combo. It this stupid, wise, or not the best?
#2574SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Valize
Originally Posted by Stoux View Post
I am am the classic 20/41 Combat Sword build I have 2 tier 4 bonus and I am tring to figure out how to best use my AR.
So I am looking for some advice and what other use to maximise the extra energy.

I usally drop it right after a 5 point Rupture then build up a 5 point snd then drop a 5 point rupture then build up a 5 point Evis then start my normal 1 SnD 5 Rup. combo. It this stupid, wise, or not the best?
I hold a 2s/5r rotation, but what I do is after I refresh my SnD (lasts 15s) I have just enough time to do a 5cp Evis and another 5cp Rupture and am still able to keep SnD up. This is key for me, cause this way my Rupture uptime is as high as it can be.
#2575SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Stoux
Originally Posted by Valize View Post
I hold a 2s/5r rotation, but what I do is after I refresh my SnD (lasts 15s) I have just enough time to do a 5cp Evis and another 5cp Rupture and am still able to keep SnD up. This is key for me, cause this way my Rupture uptime is as high as it can be.

So by a 2s/5r you mean you don't have the 2tier4 bonus or you use the extra point to carry you through your SnD? Either way I am up to trying it sounds like better combo then what I have going on anyways.
#2576SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Valize
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
When we have the "Extremely subtle details of Rogue DPS" thread, we can start including optimizations like "figure out where you are relative to vitality and BoK breakpoints".
I would love to see a thread like this.

Originally Posted by Stoux View Post
So by a 2s/5r you mean you don't have the 2tier4 bonus or you use the extra point to carry you through your SnD? Either way I am up to trying it sounds like better combo then what I have going on anyways.
I am in 4pc T6, so no, no 2pc T4. While I can hold 2s/5r, I usually have to do a 3s/5r every now and again when I blow Blade Flurry or I just need my energy to regen.

Honestly though, it's all up to what you feel you are comfortable with. The only things that really matter in rogue dps is keeping SnD up always, never letting your energy cap out, and knowing that Rupture > Evis.
#2577SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Seleli
I had a question on Expose Armor. My guild currently runs 2 Kara groups, and are about to start 25-man raids. On 25-mans we will have 2 or 3 warrior tanks, so sunders won't be an issue. On our Kara runs though, I often don't have a warrior, and when we do, he doesn't tank all the bosses, sometimes a Pally will. I don't often know what the raid setup will be until I'm standing outside Kara, so to my point.

Is it worth using non-talented Expose Armor in these situations? I'm, of course, not going to respec on a fight by fight basis in an instance, and I'd prefer to not have to go back to a major city and respec after a raid is formed and I see I have no warriors. Basically it comes down to: if no sunders are available for a particular fight, is it worth using non-talented EA in place of Rupture?

Note: In Kara, we have at a minimum 2, and max 3 physical DPS. If a warrior isn't tanking, than a Pally is, and while lower armor would help them, it doesn't seem as important as for a warrior/feral druid tank.
#2578SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Feist-Mok
Originally Posted by Stoux View Post
I am am the classic 20/41 Combat Sword build I have 2 tier 4 bonus and I am tring to figure out how to best use my AR.
So I am looking for some advice and what other use to maximise the extra energy.

I usally drop it right after a 5 point Rupture then build up a 5 point snd then drop a 5 point rupture then build up a 5 point Evis then start my normal 1 SnD 5 Rup. combo. It this stupid, wise, or not the best?

If I have an energy defecit and AR is up, I'll use it to even out my cycle and try to get back onto it.

If I'm doing fine maintaining my cycle after the 45 seconds or so I allow for tank threat, then I pop it alongside all my other cooldowns and try to sneak in an eviscerate.
#2579SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Valize
Originally Posted by Feist-Mok View Post
If I have an energy defecit and AR is up, I'll use it to even out my cycle and try to get back onto it.

If I'm doing fine maintaining my cycle after the 45 seconds or so I allow for tank threat, then I pop it alongside all my other cooldowns and try to sneak in an eviscerate.

I just Thistle Tea if I find my Energy Bottoming out.

Sure it blows a Healthstone Cool, but rarely do healthstones save me in End-Game Encounters. Plus our healers are ballin'.
#2580SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Aaberg
Originally Posted by excelion View Post
...I have a good rotation going, use hit food and agility elixirs every try in addition to spamming drums of battle, but for me to feel satisfied I'd like to be ahead of the hybrids by a larger margin. Do rogues just scale slowly, is my gear too bad, is it daggers fault or might it be a learn2play-issue? Any suggestions you throw my way would be greatly appreciated...
Try and work towards a sword spec. That probably the best you can do atm.
#2581SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Valize
Originally Posted by Seleli View Post
Basically it comes down to: if no sunders are available for a particular fight, is it worth using non-talented EA in place of Rupture?

Note: In Kara, we have at a minimum 2, and max 3 physical DPS. If a warrior isn't tanking, than a Pally is, and while lower armor would help them, it doesn't seem as important as for a warrior/feral druid tank.

If you have a warrior in there, tanking or not, he should be throwing sunders up there, not only for his DPS, but all your Physical DPS aswell. I would throw EA up there (talented or not) if I had 3 Physical DPS, anything less than that is a waste imho.
#2582SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Feist-Mok
Originally Posted by Valize View Post
I just Thistle Tea if I find my Energy Bottoming out.

Sure it blows a Healthstone Cool, but rarely do healthstones save me in End-Game Encounters. Plus our healers are ballin'.
Thistle Tea is for the second time that happens :P

And healthstones save my ass constantly - I'd rather use a healthstone and save my potion cooldown for haste than use a health pot and save my stone cooldown for tea.
#2583SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Valize
Originally Posted by Feist-Mok View Post
Thistle Tea is for the second time that happens :P

And healthstones save my ass constantly - I'd rather use a healthstone and save my potion cooldown for haste than use a health pot and save my stone cooldown for tea.
I use Haste Potions on Every cool.

It's always a judgement call whether to use Thistle Tea, if I feel I can survive through the 2 minutes till another HS timer is up, then I use it.
#2584SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1drumbum
Originally Posted by Valize View Post
If you have a warrior in there, tanking or not, he should be throwing sunders up there, not only for his DPS, but all your Physical DPS aswell. I would throw EA up there (talented or not) if I had 3 Physical DPS, anything less than that is a waste imho.
If for some reason there are really zero warriors in the raid group, then you should use EA regardless of whether any other physical DPS is present. 2050 armor penetration is much better than Rupture even just for your own damage, nevermind any other physical DPS present. I'm not sure where you came up with "3 physical DPS" being the cutoff, but you're clearly undervaluing the need for at least EA or Sunder up on your target.
#2585SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Sneakiest
I'd like to ask a few questions on energy pooling. I know it's probably already been covered, but I read something just a few posts ago in one of the rogue threads sometime these past two days which is something that I have indeed been wondering about for some time.

When should you exactly energy pool? I've read around things like keeping a good 60-80 energy prior to a rupture to avoid screwing up rotations. I'm doing 4s/5r cut with ashtongue over the shard of contempt simply because I don't like the way the shard operates. I'm using Elk's buff bars to monitor my self-buffs and having to wait on procs before using trinkets, cooldowns etc is something I don't really enjoy.

Sorry, I'm derailing myself. Basically my questions come down to this:
- You don't pool energy before SnD unless you're not using a cut cycle. A cut cycle straight up means you won't pool it, you'll just cut your SnD off as soon as those 3/4/5 CPs (depending on your cycle's SnD CP count) to maximize rupture uptime, am I correct?

- I do pool my energy before five sunders are up, but what would practically be best for an opener? A one point SnD straight up without five sunders up, or pooling energy and slowly getting three-four CPs and then charging up SnD? This is what I used to do until about a month ago, since I'm guessing one point and then climbing to my usual four-pointers should be more effective. I guess openers aren't too important.

- Cooldown synergy -- should I wait on proc effects for cooldowns? Just ignore fight lengths -- Say Brutallus. You should pop everything right from the start -- but would the benefit from waiting, say, for an unleashed rage proc from our shaman, maybe a pair of mongoose effects and waiting on ashtongue uptime before blowing my blade flurry be a noticeable benefit? We're not talking a massive time difference here, say a ten seconds later than I should pop it for instance. I know there's no way to theoretically measure this, but maybe some people here have the experience to tell me as my DPS bounces around too much between 1750 and 2050 DPS for me to conclude anything. I do really solid damage -- just not consistent, at all.

Here's A TL;DR version:
- When is it beneficial to energy pool?

Sorry above all if I'm making things too complex. Generally my playstyle is just nuking my instants and (recentely) pooling for rupture. It's just that in my experience, whenever I've seriously attempted things like pooling and waiting on proc effects for cooldowns, I end up losing out in DPS for one reason or another.

I'm trying to really stretch out my DPS as best as I can. I know more or less the theory fairly well, I've followed spreadsheets since around the late AQ40/Naxxramas days (I had an orc rogue I unfortunately transferred out of this server one day and regretted it in a day or two, having ended up rerolling in early BC for the same reason, character stuck on a server I hated for three months).

I'm asking this because there's some differences I just can't explain. In theory rogues are an easy class -- you keep your 3s/5r or whatever other cycle you use up and use cooldowns whenever they're up. But that's the thing, I suck at synergy. I use haste potions with blade flurry, but that's it. I don't wait on procs of any kind before using my cooldowns. I've tried to, but I haven't really noticed a difference and sometimes I'd dare say I've performed worse from what I could tell, but like I said, my DPS is also very inconsistent on long-term sustained damage fights like Teron/Brutallus. I do much, much better on fights with movement simply because I'm very good at maximizing my time on target.

Thanks in advance.
#2586SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1drumbum
As far as energy pooling goes, there are different levels of just how much you want to try to milk from it.

The most beneficial thing you can do with energy pooling is to save energy before refreshing SND (yes, even in a "cut" cycle!) -- but ONLY if your SND isn't going to fall off by doing so. Basically, before refreshing SND, you should wait until either of the following conditions is met: (1) your energy will cap if you do not refresh it now; (2) SND will fall off if you do not refresh it now. In general, when someone talks about a "SND cut" cycle, it only means that you shouldn't spend more energy on an additional combo point before refreshing SND. It does NOT mean that you shouldn't pool energy before refreshing it, since doing so has no adverse effects.

Another way to use energy pooling is to avoid emptying your energy bar until you get a random proc that will increase your yellow damage. For example, you may try to sit around 50-60 energy until Mongoose procs, and then you will try to unload all of your energy to hopefully increase the number of instant attacks that land inside the proc. After the buff fades, you can again let your energy pool back to the 50-60 range and do the same thing. This can be a bit tricky though because you want to make sure you have enough of a buffer to prevent capping your energy bar due to a few combat potency procs in a row.

I believe there are other ways to benefit from it as well, although I think these are the two most significant methods.
#2587SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1hedningen
@excelion
What kind of raid buff do you get?
If you don't have a shaman and a warrior in your group you are in a clear disadvantage compared to other dps.
Combat daggers as Combat swords rely alot on Combat Potency for energy refound. You have a very low hitrating on
your current gear and that effects the amount of energy you get back aswell as to hit procs like the Shard of contempt.
Untill you have better gear for Combat Daggers/Sword you might try to go Mutilate as its not as dependent on hit.
#2588SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Latito
To add a few things to the discussion:

drumbum has the right idea in regards to energy pooling. I generally just end up spamming my energy because I have other things to worry about - micromanaging a energy pool that bounces from 30-70 energy is risky if you don't give it a lot of attention. You WILL go over 100 energy if its not watched closely. With a ~0.6 speed OH (SnD, BF, DST or Lust).. you can achieve 45 energy in about 1.2 seconds (start counting time when the first proc shows up.. next 2 swings after it both proc as well). This combined with a natural energy tick makes for a really dicey situation. That said, pooling energy just before a SnD can be quite nice in regards to smoothing out cycles.

Remember those "theoretical optimal cycles" that are in the spreadsheet.. that assumes you aren't wasn't ANY SnD time. Essentially you would need an energy bar with like 500 energy or something (picking a random number here) to actually be able to absorb the swings in procs. Pooling an extra 40-60 energy is about all you can realistically do. So, say you are using a 4s/5r cycle. You pop SnD, 26.1 seconds remaining on SnD. Build up to 5 combo points. At this point I generally check my buffs. Rupture benefits from 1 thing: AP. If a Mongoose and Heroism (Shard version..) is up, I'll rupture right away. If not, I'll wait 2-4 seconds in case one comes up.. or until I reach ~60 energy. If no AP proc showed up by then, I'll just drop a Rupture right away. Technically you could do this with WF procs as well, but those buffs are up so short its more than likely just a "you might occasionally get lucky and hit one" type of thing.

Once you build back up to 4 (or however many combo point SnD you do) combo points, wait until (like previously mentioned by drumbum) your energy is around ~60 or SnD is about to fall off (0.5 sec left or so, depending on your latency and reaction time, etc). The idea is, you now have about a 60 energy headstart on your next cycle. If you happen to get a few bad Ruthlessness procs or a Combat Potency drought, this energy will help buffer you a bit. It is by no means a "sure-thing" type of safe-guard, but it helps. Essentially, you have borrowed some energy from the first cycle and rolled it over into the next cycle. Think of it like those cell phone plans that advertise Roll Over Minutes or something, but with energy. This allows your cycles to better approximate the average cycle you are able to sustain, without just chopping off your extra procs from good cycles and then getting screwed on bad cycles. It doesn't negate the RNG completely, but it helps. When you drop rupture in the cycle, aside from AP procs, really doesn't matter. If you have a 26 second cycle based on a 4-point SnD, you can rupture 5 seconds in, 10 seconds in, 25 seconds in.. it doesn't matter. Well, ok 5 and 25 are a bit outrageous due to GCD's and whatnot, but you get the idea. So long as you drop a 5-point rupture in there somewhere, your cycle is identical. This is why shifting it a few seconds (when possible) to catch an AP proc is nice. Remember, the AP you have when you apply the rupture is used in Rupture damage calcs for the duration of the bleed. Boss debuffs (Mangle) are applied on a per-tick basis.

On CD usage, specifically for Brutallus:
First, remember you have a few "layers" of CD's available. Haste Pot + Blade Flurry (+ Orc Racial!) should all be poped at the same time. Belf racial doesn't benefit from extra haste (in fact, it runs the risk of capping your energy out), so I would suggest augmenting the use of that cooldown to a low-haste period of time. This set of CD's can be used 3x per fight. Next is AR, used twice per fight. The only key is to use it within the first 45 seconds of the fight (assuming your killed kills him in exactly 6 minutes). This allows the second AR to get full usage. I would probably pop it a bit earlier, because on the 2nd usage you'll still want to use up those combo points and allowing for not hitting it ON cooldown, perhaps a few sec of needing to use GCD for something else. Next would be Bloodlust - know ahead of time when you get this. Drums are also important, altho usage varries substantially based on how many drummers you have.

Overall, it is not a good idea to use any CD before Sunder / EA is up. CoR, FF(F), EW, BF, etc. are all applied nearly instantly, but Sunder / EA generally takes 10-15 seconds to apply. Second, timing CD's to procs is a good thing to try and do, so long as you get full # of uses out of them. For instance, try and time AR to a mongoose / SoC proc if possible, but don't wait so long you only get to use it once. In general, Mongoose and SoC both proc right at the start of the fight and so using AR isn't a great thing to do then. 230 AP < 2600+ Arm Pen. Since SoC has a 45-sec ICD, you won't be able to use AR when it is up for a second time. Not to mention, poping AR *right* at the start can sometimes be touchy on threat, no matter how good your tank is - parry / dodge / miss happens. Most tanks will not be stacking Expertise for Brutallus, expect threat spikes and dropoffs. As such, I generally just use AR to shorten up my opening few cycles and get into a good rotation. If it happens to time to a mongoose.. great! No big deal.

The other major set of CD's (Haste pot, BF, Orc Racial) are pretty nice in that you can use them *whenever*. You only *have* to use them within the first ~1:40 of the fight to ensure getting a full 3 uses. I generally tend to wait until ~1 min in (when the second SoC proc comes up). This lets me pop them again at 3 min (or shortly thereafter, pending on DST / Mongoose / SoC procs) and once more around 5:30. Generally my group gets 1 or 2 bloodlusts, first being at 3 min (by my request..) and last around 1 min (mostly for Fury warrior execute). This times quite nicely to the haste/AP 2-min CD's.

Lastly, Thistle Tea. Since its on a 5-min CD and we don't need HS.. you can technically use 2. However, if you figure on an average of 2k SS from the extra 40 energy, thats ~5.5 dps. Not exactly game breaking. Instead, I would recomend just saving it until you get a cycle which is like "oh crap, I have 2 combo points and only 7 seconds left on SnD" and you need to get a cycle back on track. Saving a cycle to keep a reasonable SnD finisher out is far more valuable.

A Note to Valize:
Without 2pc T4 you cannot realistically, in any gearset, maintain 2s/5r. Do the math, open the spreadsheet.. it just doesn't work. You can get lucky streaks for sure and it works out for a short while, but overall it just won't work. Consider that a 2pt SnD is 17.4 seconds long. This is, on average roughly 226 incoming energy (10 base + 3 from c-pots). Assume both finishers proc Ruthlessness (a 36% chance to occur) you still need to get 5 SS's, ~200 energy (a bit more due to dodges and such) and then 15 average for the finisher. This gives you 10 energy slack.. every 1 in 3 cycles that you get double-proc. The other 2/3rds of the time you're basically SoL. In the long run, it just is not sustainable. AR and Tea only save 1 cycle each every 5 min. Considering a 17.4 second cycle rotates 17 times in 5 minutes, you have 15 unaccounted for cycles. Figure 1/3 of those, 5 cycles, work out with a double-Ruthlessness proc and you have 10 of every 17 cycles dropping Snd. Hardly "sustainable".
#2589SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Nock
These are some very good points, and some good practices for maximum DPS that I have been working on perfecting more myself as well. When we're able to tell the length of any given fight (like Brutallus), and the maximum DPS is of the utmost importance, practices such as using your BF/Haste during your Mongoose/Heroism (Shard of Contempt) uptimes are the difference in a few thousand more damage.

I know that there are at least two mods for enhancement shaman that support tracking the hidden cooldown of Windfury, and I'm thinking tha a mod that tracked the hidden cooldowns of trinkets that we use to maximize the best time to use our consumables, or even just pool energy for 4 seconds to wait on a rupture refresh might be a very useful tool.

I know for rupture you don't get that much time to wait anyway, and you can already wait the 4 seconds for the proc to happen or not, but when you know that the fight will be 6 minutes and you have a 60 second window of time to play with your BF/Haste pot cooldowns to wait for procs, I think that's worth investing some time into since we don't have much else to worry about.
#2590SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Valize
Originally Posted by Latito View Post
A Note to Valize:
Without 2pc T4 you cannot realistically, in any gearset, maintain 2s/5r. Do the math, open the spreadsheet.. it just doesn't work. You can get lucky streaks for sure and it works out for a short while, but overall it just won't work. Consider that a 2pt SnD is 17.4 seconds long. This is, on average roughly 226 incoming energy (10 base + 3 from c-pots). Assume both finishers proc Ruthlessness (a 36% chance to occur) you still need to get 5 SS's, ~200 energy (a bit more due to dodges and such) and then 15 average for the finisher. This gives you 10 energy slack.. every 1 in 3 cycles that you get double-proc. The other 2/3rds of the time you're basically SoL. In the long run, it just is not sustainable. AR and Tea only save 1 cycle each every 5 min. Considering a 17.4 second cycle rotates 17 times in 5 minutes, you have 15 unaccounted for cycles. Figure 1/3 of those, 5 cycles, work out with a double-Ruthlessness proc and you have 10 of every 17 cycles dropping Snd. Hardly "sustainable".
Spreadsheets or not, I live it, I do it for every raid, and have since I kicked the 2pc T4 Training wheels off. Math only takes you so far, practical usage is what matters. In any raid, I hold a 2s 5r rotation. I only do a 3s 5r when I am gearing up for a Blade Flurry, and thanks to Cutup, I wait till .7s till I refresh a new 2 point SnD. I would agree with you that maybe its luck, but then I would be lucky for 4 months x 12h of raiding a week, that is unlikely.
#2591SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Latito
Originally Posted by Valize View Post
Spreadsheets or not, I live it, I do it for every raid, and have since I kicked the 2pc T4 Training wheels off. Math only takes you so far, practical usage is what matters. In any raid, I hold a 2s 5r rotation. I only do a 3s 5r when I am gearing up for a Blade Flurry, and thanks to Cutup, I wait till .7s till I refresh a new 2 point SnD. I would agree with you that maybe its luck, but then I would be lucky for 4 months x 12h of raiding a week, that is unlikely.
Link a WWS of any boss fight longer than 2-3 minutes where you aren't dropping SnD multiple times. 2s/5r is NOT sustainable over anything more than short lucky bursts of 2, maybe 3 cycles in a row. 1.4 spd OH, Hit Cap, Exp. Cap, 4pcT6, 100+ passive haste, DST.. it doesn't matter, its not sustainable in the long term. You may think you are sustaining it but I can virtually gaurentee you will see a dps increase switching to a longer cycle.

Perhaps I'm coming off a bit strong here, given proper management you may be at a point where 2s/5r is *close* in dmg output to a longer cycle with less SnD downtime. What do you have to lose in trying a longer cycle? Do it for a fight, do it for 2-3 bosses in one night and see how it works out. Most likely you will find it (a longer cycle) to be both easier and higher dps. Not to mention its more forgiving and better suits interrupted combat. Try 4s/5r.
#2592SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1weka
Quick question: Why would the spreadsheet be telling me to use agility gems vs hit gems? According to the model in this thread, at all levels, hit > agi. According to the spreadsheet, depending on what gear I'm using, agility is preferred. Is the spreadsheet correct, or is the info here correct?
#2593SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Vulajin
Originally Posted by weka View Post
Quick question: Why would the spreadsheet be telling me to use agility gems vs hit gems? According to the model in this thread, at all levels, hit > agi. According to the spreadsheet, depending on what gear I'm using, agility is preferred. Is the spreadsheet correct, or is the info here correct?
The EP weights assume a particular set of gear and buffs that may not apply exactly to you. You should always take the spreadsheet as the most accurate answer, especially since the EP weights here are based off the spreadsheet.

TLDR: Read my avatar and user title.
#2594SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Ashere
Originally Posted by Latito View Post
Link a WWS of any boss fight longer than 2-3 minutes where you aren't dropping SnD multiple times. 2s/5r is NOT sustainable over anything more than short lucky bursts of 2, maybe 3 cycles in a row. 1.4 spd OH, Hit Cap, Exp. Cap, 4pcT6, 100+ passive haste, DST.. it doesn't matter, its not sustainable in the long term. You may think you are sustaining it but I can virtually gaurentee you will see a dps increase switching to a longer cycle.

Perhaps I'm coming off a bit strong here, given proper management you may be at a point where 2s/5r is *close* in dmg output to a longer cycle with less SnD downtime. What do you have to lose in trying a longer cycle? Do it for a fight, do it for 2-3 bosses in one night and see how it works out. Most likely you will find it (a longer cycle) to be both easier and higher dps. Not to mention its more forgiving and better suits interrupted combat. Try 4s/5r.
High +hit and lots of haste can help trigger more Combat Potency procs (proc per strike ftw here), which can allow one to reduce his or her SnD uptime. But this is a strategy that is kinda tricky, it needs constant micromanagement of our energy.
#2595SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Shaker
Originally Posted by Ashere View Post
High +hit and lots of haste can help trigger more Combat Potency procs (proc per strike ftw here), which can allow one to reduce his or her SnD uptime. But this is a strategy that is kinda tricky, it needs constant micromanagement of our energy.
No, it won't. Aldriana posted on this not that long ago, but given a .7 offhand swing speed (i.e. your offhand swinging in half the time) and hit-capped/expertise-capped, you can only expect 75 energy from CPot. 75 + 174 = 249 energy in that time. During that time you need to generate 232 energy for 5.8 (average) sinister strikes and 15 energy on average for the 2 finishers, for a total of 247 energy. So yes, it's theoretically stable at the point where you keep your 1.4 speed offhand hasted at .7 AT ALL TIMES, and are 100% hit and expertise capped.

The point is, while hit and haste obviously will effect Combat Potency, it isn't really super significant - at the extreme case we've increased energy regen by less than 10%.
#2596SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Valize
Originally Posted by Latito View Post
Link a WWS of any boss fight longer than 2-3 minutes where you aren't dropping SnD multiple times. 2s/5r is NOT sustainable over anything more than short lucky bursts of 2, maybe 3 cycles in a row. 1.4 spd OH, Hit Cap, Exp. Cap, 4pcT6, 100+ passive haste, DST.. it doesn't matter, its not sustainable in the long term. You may think you are sustaining it but I can virtually gaurentee you will see a dps increase switching to a longer cycle.

Perhaps I'm coming off a bit strong here, given proper management you may be at a point where 2s/5r is *close* in dmg output to a longer cycle with less SnD downtime. What do you have to lose in trying a longer cycle? Do it for a fight, do it for 2-3 bosses in one night and see how it works out. Most likely you will find it (a longer cycle) to be both easier and higher dps. Not to mention its more forgiving and better suits interrupted combat. Try 4s/5r.

Sorry, I re-read my post and found I could be coming off a bit strong.

I would be happy to link a WWS, however my computer @ work can barely handle decent forum trolling, let alone waiting 10 minutes to display WWS. I don't know how I hold it, but I am able to. My Rupture ticks off with just enough time for me for to refresh, sometimes regen a couple ticks of energy and re-do my Slice N Dice. If it ever falls off, its only for less than a split second if I am slow to hit my 7 button when I have .7s left on my SnD Timer.

EDIT: I was able to get it Wow Web Stats

Last edited by Valize : 04/17/08 at 5:44 PM. Reason: Needed to add a WWS
#2597SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
 Aldriana
So, quick notes on Combat Potency and 2s5r:

1) Hit does not scale Combat Potency as much as you think it does. Going from 0 hit and 0 expertise to capped with both increases your total regen by about 50% (Roughly 66% of your attacks hitting going to 100% hitting). That capping requires 363 hit rating and 142 expertise rating. Which means that the difference between, say, 200 hit rating and 300 hit rating is less than a 10% increase in your combat potency regen, and thus about 3% of your total regen.

2) Consider 2s5r for a moment. With Relentless Strikes and Ruthlessness, this takes an average of 15 + 5.8*40 =247 energy even assuming none of your sinister strikes get dodged, ever. 247 energy in 17.4 seconds is 14.195 energy per second; 10 of this is your baseline regen, meaning you need to get 4.195 from other means. Since AR, Tea, and the Blood Elf racial are too infrequent to patch all your cycles, this basically means your only source of regen is Combat Potency (barring Rod of the Sun King, which we'll ignore for the moment). This requires 4.195/3 = 1.4 offhand *hits* - not attacks, hits - per second. Even assuming you're expertise capped, using a 1.3 speed OH (which means you're using a dagger, which has it's own problems), and have 2/5 T6 for the increased SnD speed, this still requires 34.6% haste from other sources. If you assume 100% Mongoose Uptime on both hands (which is obviously impossible, but we'll go with it), that's 464 haste rating. Even with continuous drum uptime and allowing for an average of 100 haste rating from DST (which is more than you actually get, but, against, we're estimating), that's still 284 haste rating on gear, which I'm willing to bet that no raiding rogue in existence actually has at the moment - particularly not while being simultaneously hit and expertise capped.

So: I'll buy that you can sustain 2s5r with maybe a second or two of average SnD downtime. But it's just not possible to get 100% uptime, unless you know about some special rogue mechanic that has eluded the rest of us.

3) Regarding the WWS: Note that you have *9* SnD gains in a 4:26 fight. This means it's dropping about once every 30 seconds, or every other cycle. I can't speak to how *long* it's dropping, per say, but it's definitely dropping.

Edit: Off the top of my head, though: 86 rupture ticks is 11 ruptures, possibly 12 if you're clipping them (which is a problem in it's own right, but lets skip that for the moment). You also have 2 Eviscerates, one of which is presumably from AR. So you have probably 12 but possibly 13 finishers from your normal cycles, which would, in turn, imply 13 SnDs. 13 SnDs lasting 17.4 seconds each is at most 226.2 seconds SnD uptime out of a total of 266 seconds of fight, which implies you had almost 40 seconds without SnD... or you're not doing 2s5r.

Last edited by Aldriana : 04/17/08 at 6:08 PM.
#2598SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Nock
That WWS shows you dropping SnD 9 times, which was the entire point of his post.

2s/5r in theory, would be a 100% uptime of rupture if it was sustainable. 17.4 sec of SnD and 16 seconds of Rupture. The parse you linked was 266 seconds long. Assuming a ramp-up time of 16 seconds for the first Rupture to be applied, that would give you 250 seconds of Rupture uptime, or 125 ticks. You had 86 ticks of Rupture on the boss. That's 68.8% uptime, not 100%.

I double-checked the debuffs that you had on the boss, and while it's possible you had rupture pushed off if absolutlely everything was on the boss at that same time, the reality is that not all debuffs are on the boss 100% (Ignite ticks, Imp Shadowbolt, Immolate, Expose Weakness, etc.)

So for 31.2% of your time, you didn't have rupture uptime, which means you were either working towards refreshing your rupture, or dropping smaller SnD because you were having the current one fall. There's nothing wrong with not having 100% rupture uptime (Haven't had it since 2pc T4 personally) and you really should look into revising your cycles.

Last edited by Nock : 04/17/08 at 6:15 PM.
#2599SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Rearim
new fist vs. swords

hey i was wondering with the new badge rewards now out for my server, would the new fist weaps do more damage then my current pvp swords, switching spec ofcourse, could anyone give me some imput as to their thoughts or numbers on it. thanks
#2600SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Latito
So, I messaged Valize around 2:30 (actually, just after reading and dismissing Ashere's post). I just checked my Sent Mail box and its not there, so I suspect I might have accidentally closed the tab before hitting send. Either way, I looked up his WWS logs (link to his guild below his avatar, their forum has a link to the guild WWS url). Checked out the last 3 Teron's and a Bear-boss kill, mentioned I wouldn't post on this thread since its his guilds own WWS reports, but hey:
Originally Posted by Valize View Post
I would be happy to link a WWS...
So..

Wow Web Stats (Teron, 4:26, 9 SnD gains)
Wow Web Stats (Teron, 4:15, 7 SnD gains)
Wow Web Stats (Teron, 4:16, 8 SnD gains)
Wow Web Stats (Bear, 4:17, 11 SnD gains)

Makes sense that Bear boss is slightly higher number of SnD gains since you lose some combat potency when he charges casters. Overall, very much expected of trying to use a 2s/5r cycle.
#2601SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1stabbarella
Hello! I've been enjoying these posts for some time and am starting to work on the theorycrafting of my game play. Sadly the spreadsheet doesn't work in Mac Office 2008 (trust me they've heard from me about it), so I am doing things on my own and reading as much as I can.

I'm still in some blue gear, but just switched from sword/sword to fist/sword (16/45) with the new Vanir's right. I have yet to test it but I kept good numbers from my runs this week, so I can post some raw data.

My issues have been my rotation, especially when in ZA where I am moving a lot to avoid flames, etc. Another issue I have, which I fully agree with some here, is low stamina. I am sure some of this will change dramatically once I am in better gear, not just from a stam viewpoint but also armor. I also find I need FR, etc a lot as I seem to take most of my damage from AOE spells.

I'd be interested in what the number crunchers find out about a fist/sword build for those of us who don't arena but mainly raid. I'd like to get above 800dps on a raid on a consistent basis.

2s/5r seems to work fine, but I end up with extra cp or energy, so I have not determined when I should toss an evisc in to keep my s&d up without wasting cp.
#2602SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Valize
I got your Message.

I see what you guys are saying, I didn't realize the .5s to max1s I don't have it up is so detrimental.

With my current gear, what rotation would you guys suggest?

Lastly, with a 4s 5r rotation, wouldnt you have some problems with your energy pool capping out? Again I haven't used a rotation like that in a while so sorry if these seem like dumb questions.
#2603SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Latito
At around ~60 energy, if SnD is still running you just refresh it early. Refresh SnD when of the following 2 conditions is met:
1 - Current SnD has ~0.5 to 1 second left
2 - You have ~60 energy pooled (this is to avoid capping out with energy ticks + potency procs)

This is true of basically any cycle. Tighter cycles tend to hit condition 1 more often. Cycles with more slack tend to hit condition 2 more often.

Side note: Is there a way to save sent messages? I can't seem to find any such option anywhere and have 0 messages in my Sent folder.

Last edited by Latito : 04/17/08 at 7:26 PM.
#2604SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Valize
Originally Posted by Latito View Post
At around ~60 energy, if SnD is still running you just refresh it early. Refresh SnD when of the following 2 conditions is met:
1 - Current SnD has ~0.5 to 1 second left
2 - You have ~60 energy pooled (this is to avoid capping out with energy ticks + potency procs)

This is true of basically any cycle. Tighter cycles tend to hit condition 1 more often. Cycles with more slack tend to hit condition 2 more often.
This is what I figured. So I assume that a 4s/5r would require you cutting your SnD a pretty decent amount no?

If that;s the case then I would also assume that you could move to s 3s/5r rotation.
#2605SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Ricard
3s/5r is rough to manage, even, without the t4 2/5. The spreadsheet suggests 3.7s/5r to me, so I bump that up to 4s/5r for safety's sake. You could probably run 3s/5r, though, if you watched your SnD closely and popped Thistle tea on bad proc runs.
#2606SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Valize
Originally Posted by Ricard View Post
3s/5r is rough to manage, even, without the t4 2/5. The spreadsheet suggests 3.7s/5r to me, so I bump that up to 4s/5r for safety's sake. You could probably run 3s/5r, though, if you watched your SnD closely and popped Thistle tea on bad proc runs.
Which I already do.

I think I will try this out on the remainder of our BT run on Sunday.
#2607SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Dorvan
Originally Posted by Ricard View Post
3s/5r is rough to manage, even, without the t4 2/5. The spreadsheet suggests 3.7s/5r to me, so I bump that up to 4s/5r for safety's sake. You could probably run 3s/5r, though, if you watched your SnD closely and popped Thistle tea on bad proc runs.
This has been covered a number of times....if the spreadsheet outputs a X.Ys/5r cycle, Xs/5r is *not* sustainable with 100% SnD uptime. You may be able to weave X - X+1s/5r, but simply going X+1s/5r is usually the best choice (for a basic sustained DPS fight).
#2608SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1drumbum
The thing about cutting into SND time is a lot of people assume it's bad to overwrite SND early, but once you consider what is actually happening, you'll realize it's really not a big deal. You still have 100% SND uptime, and by refreshing it sooner you get to your next Rupture sooner. Spending energy on another SS only delays your next Rupture without increasing SND uptime (which should be 100% either way). So what do you lose by cutting into SND time?

It comes down to this: The benefit of cutting into SND is that your Rupture uptime will be greater. On the other hand, the benefit of not cutting is that your SND will cost less energy on average. As it turns out, these effects are surprisingly close to equal (for example, the difference between 3s/5r and 5s/5r for the default gear set in Aldriana's sheet is only about 5 DPS).

There's just no need to try to overly tighten your cycle. At best you gain 5-10 DPS (although 2pc T4 makes 1s/5r a little more beneficial than this, probably closer to 20 DPS), but that's only in the ideal case. Since raiding isn't ideal, your SND is going to drop, and you're probably just hurting yourself more than helping.
#2609SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Ariose
As the EA rogue, what's the best way to start the fight? You'd want to get it up as soon as possible, I imagine. 1s / AR / 5s / 5a? That almost seems a bit too long still. Ideas?
#2610SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Valize
Originally Posted by Ariose View Post
As the EA rogue, what's the best way to start the fight? You'd want to get it up as soon as possible, I imagine. 1s / AR / 5s / 5a? That almost seems a bit too long still. Ideas?
By EA I assume you mean Expose Armour (Canadian, deal with the U). Anyway, I would start off just like you always would, just instead of using a 5cp Rupture, use an Expose Armour.
#2611SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Aldriana
I find the best way - if your tank can handle it - is 2s->AR->5a->5s->vanish->normal cycles.

If your tank isn't up to the task, I find that the same pattern, without the AR but using Shiv instead of Sinister Strike works fairly well.
#2612SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Kukulkan
Sry wrong thread.

Last edited by Kukulkan : 04/17/08 at 9:28 PM.
#2613SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Vekna
Rogue looking for advice

Ive been working with this spec just trying to see what people thinkhttp://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/rogue/talents.html?2053001000000000000003033050010050140020000005022501002300210000000
#2614SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Acyrith
Originally Posted by Vekna View Post
Ive been working with this spec just trying to see what people thinkhttp://www.worldofwarcraft.com/info/classes/rogue/talents.html?2053001000000000000003033050010050140020000005022501002300210000000
I would take a point out of Imp Gouge or Lightning Reflexes and put that in Imp Sprint, and I'd put the 2 points in Murder instead of Imp Eviscerate but otherwise it looks like a pretty standard tri-spec hemo build.

Depending where you are in progression this should be pretty competitive with Combat in the earlier content but will start to fall behind once you get into Tier 5 content (this is counting the hemo charges towards your damage, your personal dps will be lower than combat regardless).
#2615SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Cyn
That build is close to what is typically referred to as tri-spec hemo. It's a fine utility build for t4/low end t5, after which, just speccing combat will out dps the utility offered by hemo.
#2616SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1evl
Originally Posted by stabbarella View Post
Sadly the spreadsheet doesn't work in Mac Office 2008
It works like a charm in NeoOffice (www.neooffice.org)
#2617SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1rhea
Originally Posted by drumbum View Post
The thing about cutting into SND time is a lot of people assume it's bad to overwrite SND early, but once you consider what is actually happening, you'll realize it's really not a big deal. You still have 100% SND uptime, and by refreshing it sooner you get to your next Rupture sooner. Spending energy on another SS only delays your next Rupture without increasing SND uptime (which should be 100% either way). So what do you lose by cutting into SND time?

It comes down to this: The benefit of cutting into SND is that your Rupture uptime will be greater. On the other hand, the benefit of not cutting is that your SND will cost less energy on average. As it turns out, these effects are surprisingly close to equal (for example, the difference between 3s/5r and 5s/5r for the default gear set in Aldriana's sheet is only about 5 DPS).

There's just no need to try to overly tighten your cycle. At best you gain 5-10 DPS (although 2pc T4 makes 1s/5r a little more beneficial than this, probably closer to 20 DPS), but that's only in the ideal case. Since raiding isn't ideal, your SND is going to drop, and you're probably just hurting yourself more than helping.

By cutting into SND you start of next SND with less energy. This means you will have a harder time getting a 5 point rupture so you can start of another 2-3 point SND. I think the ideal situation is to always have 60+ energy at the end of SND (when you start another cycle). Hitting another SS/Hemo even if you had the time complicates this because you will have less energy to start off with; which means rupture again will start later in the cycle resulting SND to drop. Only if energy caps out you will have to hit another SS/Hemo. This is a no problem for 4-5 point SND cycle tho, ultra-safe-cycle .
Personally I think I gamble a little too much with ruthlessness, weaving SND with less combo points
#2618SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Tarquin
So I'm a little dismayed at my performance in SSC last night; Tidewalker is the fight that sort of stands out. (I did generally terrible on trash but I put most of the blame there on the immense framerate lag I've been suffering since 2.4; not much I can do about that except turn my spell effects down and get a new computer!) Basically, the other rogue and I have exceptionally similar gear; the only major difference was that she was using a Spiteblade and I had a Season 2. And she ended up out-DPSing me by over 150.

Reasons that helped her pull ahead:
-I got Graved once; she didn't get Graved at all. Obviously the big one, especially if I had a Rupture ticking, which I believe would cause WWS to track me at something like 100 DPS for 10-12 seconds as opposed to just lowering my in-combat time.
-I let S&D drop 13 times; she only let it drop 9. I'm reasonably certain that apart from the Grave it was only for a second or two each time, but I could be wrong.
-She had 10 more Windfury procs, 5 more Mongoose procs, and 14 more Potency procs. Gogo RNG I suppose?
-She popped 3 Haste pots to my 1. The other big kicker.

Reasons I could have still made up the difference:
-2 Dren Rushes to her 1. Probably not a huge difference but worth noting.
-Season 2 vs. Spiteblade. Seriously WTF.

Anyway, I'm just wondering if anyone can spot something that I missed, maybe slap me over the head with a large trout. I've been yelled at not to be too hard on myself performance-wise, but as the raid leader I sort of have to be because who else is going to? My goal for next week is to never let S&D drop, which is paradoxically difficult with a 1/5 rotation. Apart from that I guess just pray for less Graves, and maybe pop a few more Haste pots.

Any thoughts?
#2619SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 AtADeadRun
Originally Posted by Tarquin View Post
So I'm a little dismayed at my performance in SSC last night; Tidewalker is the fight that sort of stands out. (I did generally terrible on trash but I put most of the blame there on the immense framerate lag I've been suffering since 2.4; not much I can do about that except turn my spell effects down and get a new computer!) Basically, the other rogue and I have exceptionally similar gear; the only major difference was that she was using a Spiteblade and I had a Season 2. And she ended up out-DPSing me by over 150.

Reasons that helped her pull ahead:
-I got Graved once; she didn't get Graved at all. Obviously the big one, especially if I had a Rupture ticking, which I believe would cause WWS to track me at something like 100 DPS for 10-12 seconds as opposed to just lowering my in-combat time.
-I let S&D drop 13 times; she only let it drop 9. I'm reasonably certain that apart from the Grave it was only for a second or two each time, but I could be wrong.
-She had 10 more Windfury procs, 5 more Mongoose procs, and 14 more Potency procs. Gogo RNG I suppose?
-She popped 3 Haste pots to my 1. The other big kicker.

Reasons I could have still made up the difference:
-2 Dren Rushes to her 1. Probably not a huge difference but worth noting.
-Season 2 vs. Spiteblade. Seriously WTF.

Anyway, I'm just wondering if anyone can spot something that I missed, maybe slap me over the head with a large trout. I've been yelled at not to be too hard on myself performance-wise, but as the raid leader I sort of have to be because who else is going to? My goal for next week is to never let S&D drop, which is paradoxically difficult with a 1/5 rotation. Apart from that I guess just pray for less Graves, and maybe pop a few more Haste pots.

Any thoughts?
If you're raid-leading, you might consider loosening your cycles a touch. You're trying to keep track of what the whole raid is doing *and* maintain a tight cycle, so it could very well be beneficial to your overall DPS to go to 2s5r. That way, you've got some cushion for those times when your attention is momentarily focused on something other than maintaining ideal cycles (because a healer bit it and you have to call for a battle rez or some such). I'm typically just tracking my melee, and I loosen to 2s5r for exactly that reason.

Other than that, just looks like -- as you've already figured out -- the RNG and the haste pots bit you.
#2620SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1mark_f
A little advice please

Hello! I'm an avid reader of this forum and enjoy much of the discussion but I could do with a little advice from you guys. My DPS has been suffering a little lately and I cant seem to figure out why!?

I would be greatful if someone could give me a few tips on spec/gear and dps cycles or just figure out where im going wrong. I used to on average to about 830 DPS but lately this seems to have dropped below 700 and i cant figure out wthether this is because of a respec from classic combat swords or the new MH i am now using? Could someone also let me know what an average DPS for someone with my kit is so I know what to aim for?

I use a 3s/5r cycle generally as i can manage to sustain this.

Here's my armory link: The World of Warcraft Armory

Here's a recent WWS report: Wow Web Stats (I know its only kara but i havent really done any 25mans in this spec to show you)

Some kits available to me for swap in/out (other than what my armory shows):

[Vanir's Left Fist of Savagery]
[Spiteblade]

[Netherblade Facemask]
[Netherblade Breeches]
[Bladed Shoulderpads of the Merciless]
[Malefic Mask of the Shadows]
[Trickster's Stickyfingers]

[Ring of a Thousand Marks]

Thanks in advance!
#2621SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Kumar
First, your weapons are fine, although you can consider going fist spec, with both the MH and OH fists.

I would recommend getting the Gear Speadsheet linked in the Original Post and putting your gear in and see what DPS you should be doing.

Netherblade Facemask will give you a DPS increase, make sure you get the meta gem requirements right.
The Ring of a Thousand Marks should be better than the VE Rep Ring.

But use the spreadsheet to check your upgrades and it will also give you the prime rotation and what DPS you would be doing.

I would also stop using Evenom. You have two Shamans but no Windfury, put one Shaman in your group and use WF Totem. DP on OH, WF for MH.

Your gloves should have +15 agi enchant on them.

It is also good to remember, that meele DPS can vary widely due to the fights, for Kara I personally beleive Nightbane to be the best indicator of your DPS.

Edit: I am looking to get a WWS of mine critiqued, would Tidewalker fight be best for that? I have a Leo and FLK WWS, would those be any useful?

Last edited by Kumar : 04/18/08 at 9:53 AM.
#2622SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1coderego
Originally Posted by stabbarella View Post
Hello! I've been enjoying these posts for some time and am starting to work on the theorycrafting of my game play. Sadly the spreadsheet doesn't work in Mac Office 2008 (trust me they've heard from me about it), so I am doing things on my own and reading as much as I can.

I'm still in some blue gear, but just switched from sword/sword to fist/sword (16/45) with the new Vanir's right. I have yet to test it but I kept good numbers from my runs this week, so I can post some raw data.

My issues have been my rotation, especially when in ZA where I am moving a lot to avoid flames, etc. Another issue I have, which I fully agree with some here, is low stamina. I am sure some of this will change dramatically once I am in better gear, not just from a stam viewpoint but also armor. I also find I need FR, etc a lot as I seem to take most of my damage from AOE spells.

I'd be interested in what the number crunchers find out about a fist/sword build for those of us who don't arena but mainly raid. I'd like to get above 800dps on a raid on a consistent basis.

2s/5r seems to work fine, but I end up with extra cp or energy, so I have not determined when I should toss an evisc in to keep my s&d up without wasting cp.
Download open office and get over yourself mac-user
#2623SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
iuron
Originally Posted by Tarquin View Post
So I'm a little dismayed at my performance in SSC last night; Tidewalker is the fight that sort of stands out. (I did generally terrible on trash but I put most of the blame there on the immense framerate lag I've been suffering since 2.4; not much I can do about that except turn my spell effects down and get a new computer!) Basically, the other rogue and I have exceptionally similar gear; the only major difference was that she was using a Spiteblade and I had a Season 2. And she ended up out-DPSing me by over 150.
...
Any thoughts?
First, beeing one of our raidleaders myself I know that you can easily be distracted from optimal performance and micromanaging energy and cycles. I often experienced that once you loose your cycle it's hard to get back on it. Keeping SnD up at all times is way more important than any other finishers... 10.7k difference are due to blade furry, that's 27 dps.

Your argument saying that your MH is plain better isn't supported by the stats.In fact her average swing did more damage than yours. I'd put that down to a higher crit percentage with her normal swings (33 % compared to your 28 %)... I assume her crit raiting is higher than yours. As you seem to raid with an Moonkin her higher crit might result in better dps output than your focus on getting close to the hit cap. But all these things are assumptions as your armory pages do not seem to represent your gear on that night. Obviously Ceilly got the Talon out of that fight.

edit: take a look at "breakdowns". She hat 10% more swings and the average hit was 564 to 547 in her favour. That should explain the difference.

Last edited by iuron : 04/18/08 at 10:48 AM.
#2624SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1mark_f
Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
First, your weapons are fine, although you can consider going fist spec, with both the MH and OH fists.

I would recommend getting the Gear Speadsheet linked in the Original Post and putting your gear in and see what DPS you should be doing.

Netherblade Facemask will give you a DPS increase, make sure you get the meta gem requirements right.
The Ring of a Thousand Marks should be better than the VE Rep Ring.

But use the spreadsheet to check your upgrades and it will also give you the prime rotation and what DPS you would be doing.

I would also stop using Evenom. You have two Shamans but no Windfury, put one Shaman in your group and use WF Totem. DP on OH, WF for MH.

Your gloves should have +15 agi enchant on them.

It is also good to remember, that meele DPS can vary widely due to the fights, for Kara I personally beleive Nightbane to be the best indicator of your DPS.

Edit: I am looking to get a WWS of mine critiqued, would Tidewalker fight be best for that? I have a Leo and FLK WWS, would those be any useful?
Thanks for the suggestion! Yeah ive been using the dps spreadsheet for some time and it recommends my current gear as being optimal with what I have available. It also says that I should be doing 1036 DPS buffed on a 1s/5r cycle without any raid buffs but boss debuffs left as standard. This is either wildly inaccurate or i am doing something seriously wrong as ive never got anywhere near that sort of number apart from maybe a nuke aran fight.

Generally i spam SS whenever energy allows me to and then rupture at 5 CP, is this the way most people do it or is it best to wait until your energy is full after the first SnD is up then SS multiple times?

Cheers
#2625SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Tarquin
Originally Posted by iuron View Post
Your argument saying that your MH is plain better isn't supported by the stats.In fact her average swing did more damage than yours. I'd put that down to a higher crit percentage with her normal swings (33 % compared to your 28 %)... I assume her crit raiting is higher than yours. As you seem to raid with an Moonkin her higher crit might result in better dps output than your focus on getting close to the hit cap. But all these things are assumptions as your armory pages do not seem to represent your gear on that night. Obviously Ceilly got the Talon out of that fight.
Yeah, during that fight, she was using a Spiteblade, I was using a Season 2 mainhand; I can only suspect that she just has higher AP than I do due to gem choices. At one point my hit was pretty dismal (around 240) so I had to make up the difference with gems; I should probably regem but I'm not yet sure if I'm going to try Mutilate when I get a Fang of Vashj. But eh, I'll just do some dailies and gem for what I've got.

AADR, I'll try sticking with 2/5 tonight/next week and see if it provides a boost. It's a pain in the ass when 9 times out of 10 I'm cutting my S&D with 1/5, but it seem that 1 out of 10 is really hurting me.

Thanks for the tips so far.
#2626SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Kumar
Originally Posted by mark_f View Post
Thanks for the suggestion! Yeah ive been using the dps spreadsheet for some time and it recommends my current gear as being optimal with what I have available. It also says that I should be doing 1036 DPS buffed on a 1s/5r cycle without any raid buffs but boss debuffs left as standard. This is either wildly inaccurate or i am doing something seriously wrong as ive never got anywhere near that sort of number apart from maybe a nuke aran fight.

Generally i spam SS whenever energy allows me to and then rupture at 5 CP, is this the way most people do it or is it best to wait until your energy is full after the first SnD is up then SS multiple times?

Cheers
No, you never your energy to cap out, you keep hitting SS as soon as energy permits it. The important thing for Rogue DPS is to not let SnD fall off at all, if its going to end, renew SnD immediately.

I know the spreadsheet says 1036 dps, for me it says 1350+ DPS but I have never achieved it on any of the fights, because almost all fights have some meele downtime. The best place to measure your DPS in this regards would be Void Reaver as that is one fight you can continue to DPS without any downtime, Tidewalker is another one if you don't get graved. In Kara, I can't think of any sustained fight where you can DPS without interruptions.

Yeah, during that fight, she was using a Spiteblade, I was using a Season 2 mainhand; I can only suspect that she just has higher AP than I do due to gem choices. At one point my hit was pretty dismal (around 240) so I had to make up the difference with gems; I should probably regem but I'm not yet sure if I'm going to try Mutilate when I get a Fang of Vashj. But eh, I'll just do some dailies and gem for what I've got.

AADR, I'll try sticking with 2/5 tonight/next week and see if it provides a boost. It's a pain in the ass when 9 times out of 10 I'm cutting my S&D with 1/5, but it seem that 1 out of 10 is really hurting me.

Thanks for the tips so far.
You can look at gemming for Agi instead of AP, its better IMO.

Also, I think you are overeacting here, unless she has consistently outdpsed you with worse gear. Tidewalker is one fight, you are leading the raid so you are worrying about healers getting graved, whether the Murlock tanks have proper aggro or not, etc. In some way, Leading the raid will in some way affect your DPS. Apart from that, one fight, if RNG hates you that fight not much you can do. I have had fights with few WF procs, Sword Spec procs, Crit procs, etc which then affects my DPS. Then we move to the next fight and I end up doing most DPS on a meele unfriendly fights just because of awesome procs.
#2627SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1drumbum
Originally Posted by rhea View Post
By cutting into SND you start of next SND with less energy. This means you will have a harder time getting a 5 point rupture so you can start of another 2-3 point SND. I think the ideal situation is to always have 60+ energy at the end of SND (when you start another cycle). Hitting another SS/Hemo even if you had the time complicates this because you will have less energy to start off with; which means rupture again will start later in the cycle resulting SND to drop. Only if energy caps out you will have to hit another SS/Hemo. This is a no problem for 4-5 point SND cycle tho, ultra-safe-cycle .
Personally I think I gamble a little too much with ruthlessness, weaving SND with less combo points
I think you have an incorrect understanding of what "SND cut" means (or at least, what most of us on this forum mean by it). Generally when we talk about an "SND cut" cycle, we mean simply that SND should be refreshed before consuming more energy with another instant attack. It does not mean that you should refresh SND the second you have enough energy to do so. You should let your energy pool before using SND, and in fact this is quite beneficial as you have said.
#2628SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1stjmp
I have been trying to improve my character using the gear spreadsheet and shadowpanther as a guide for my upgrades. However I have dropped from 290hit to 229 hit and the spreadsheet still recommends me gemming agi > ap > hit. If I follow the next few logical upgrades my hit will plummet.

I realize hit is not a magical number, but is going under 200hit and gemming agi>ap>hit really such a good idea or am I being led-astray by rogue spreadsheets (sorry!)

Here is my armory in case I have not provided enough information. The World of Warcraft Armory
My guild is casual and my means of upgrade are limited beyond 10mans and Badges. I am an ex-highend raider (pre-tbc, different class), but getting the most from my character is still very important to me. I would appreciate any advice.
#2629SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Vulajin
Originally Posted by stjmp View Post
I have been trying to improve my character using the gear spreadsheet and shadowpanther as a guide for my upgrades. However I have dropped from 290hit to 229 hit and the spreadsheet still recommends me gemming agi > ap > hit. If I follow the next few logical upgrades my hit will plummet.

I realize hit is not a magical number, but is going under 200hit and gemming agi>ap>hit really such a good idea or am I being led-astray by rogue spreadsheets (sorry!)

Here is my armory in case I have not provided enough information. The World of Warcraft Armory
My guild is casual and my means of upgrade are limited beyond 10mans and Badges. I am an ex-highend raider (pre-tbc, different class), but getting the most from my character is still very important to me. I would appreciate any advice.
The one and only answer is contained in my user title.
#2630SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Latito
Hit tends to scale really well with a lot of raid buffs - Windfury in particular. If you have customized the buff menu to not include WF (plausible for a 10-man guild).. well I can see why other stats would come out ahead. 2x AP > 1 Hit is a bit of a stretch though. Are you getting Battle Shout even?
#2631SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Jakani
Originally Posted by stjmp View Post
I have been trying to improve my character using the gear spreadsheet and shadowpanther as a guide for my upgrades. However I have dropped from 290hit to 229 hit and the spreadsheet still recommends me gemming agi > ap > hit. If I follow the next few logical upgrades my hit will plummet.

I realize hit is not a magical number, but is going under 200hit and gemming agi>ap>hit really such a good idea or am I being led-astray by rogue spreadsheets (sorry!)

Here is my armory in case I have not provided enough information. The World of Warcraft Armory
My guild is casual and my means of upgrade are limited beyond 10mans and Badges. I am an ex-highend raider (pre-tbc, different class), but getting the most from my character is still very important to me. I would appreciate any advice.
When I put 10-man buffs into the spreadsheet I get agi/ap recommendations too. It's a matter of scaling, really. Hit scales really well with raid buffs, so for 25-man groups (especially with WF), hit becomes the most efficient dps stat. If you're never going to leave Kara/ZA, then follow the spreadsheet.
#2632SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1stjmp
Yes miss Windfury, mostly get battleshout. I guess I just wanted some reassurance why the spreadsheet gave me such different stat weights to most people on here. Thanks for the explanation.
#2633SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Dontmindme
Actually, I remember using the spreadsheets a long time ago, with gear that was pre-Kara. 2 AP was greater than both, then as gear improved, Agility was best (as AP was still a significant boost), until you reach the point where Hit rating takes over.

It's certainly possible at low gear levels, but as your gear gets better, AP will scale much more poorly and will be quickly taken over by hit rating.
#2634SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1glowacks
Originally Posted by Dontmindme View Post
Actually, I remember using the spreadsheets a long time ago, with gear that was pre-Kara. 2 AP was greater than both, then as gear improved, Agility was best (as AP was still a significant boost), until you reach the point where Hit rating takes over.

It's certainly possible at low gear levels, but as your gear gets better, AP will scale much more poorly and will be quickly taken over by hit rating.
I know "QFT" is basically frowned on, but I was going to say something very similar.

Don't bother looking at what your hit rating is exactly. It doesn't matter. Plug your gear in the spreadsheet, and look at the AEP values. If anyone tells you you should be gemming for hit with 1900 AP and 200 hit rating (which is about my gear level), tell them to guarantee you an enhancement shaman and warrior with Solarian's Sapphrire in every group you're in first. I gem for agility on new gear even though it's very slightly worse than 2AP, just because it'll get better, and treat Hit rating as just another stat.
#2635SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Tarquin
Hah, so, regarding my earlier question about being outdamaged: Ceilly actually has less AP than I do. However, when I was talking about this with her last night during Vashj (first kill whoo) she casually mentioned that she was flasked. I didn't bother for a farming run. I think I can stop kvetching now!
#2636SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Kumar
Originally Posted by Tarquin View Post
Hah, so, regarding my earlier question about being outdamaged: Ceilly actually has less AP than I do. However, when I was talking about this with her last night during Vashj (first kill whoo) she casually mentioned that she was flasked. I didn't bother for a farming run. I think I can stop kvetching now!
The least you can do is use the Elixir of Major Agility for farm content.
#2637SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Drek-SiN
So I've been doing the 4s/5r rotation the spreadsheet suggested and I've ran into a few problems:

*I find myself having 15 seconds or so on SnD with rupture already up and 4 combo points. Most of the time what I do is get a 5th point up and SnD once again (having snd up is superior to rupture) but I'm not sure what I should do if I have 5 combo pts up and rupture already ticking with 10 or so seconds on SnD, would it be worth it to refresh it even though I have 10 seconds left on it?


One other thing:

Sometimes when I burn AR at the start of a fight (like TG for example) I find myself with a similar problem as above, I already have plenty of time on SnD and the time remaining on rupture is either more than enough or I can't over ride it due to procs at the time of application. What I'm wondering here is what I should do with the extra combo points, should I eviscerate, envenom or refresh my SnD timer regardless of how much time is left?
#2638SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Kumar
I usually fit in a Eviscerate when using AR.

As for the other situation, pool your energy (but don't let it cap out), refresh SnD which will allow you get in another 3 SS quickly after the refresh. That would be my suggestion anyway.
#2639SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1drumbum
Originally Posted by Drek-SiN View Post
So I've been doing the 4s/5r rotation the spreadsheet suggested and I've ran into a few problems:

*I find myself having 15 seconds or so on SnD with rupture already up and 4 combo points. Most of the time what I do is get a 5th point up and SnD once again (having snd up is superior to rupture) but I'm not sure what I should do if I have 5 combo pts up and rupture already ticking with 10 or so seconds on SnD, would it be worth it to refresh it even though I have 10 seconds left on it?


One other thing:

Sometimes when I burn AR at the start of a fight (like TG for example) I find myself with a similar problem as above, I already have plenty of time on SnD and the time remaining on rupture is either more than enough or I can't over ride it due to procs at the time of application. What I'm wondering here is what I should do with the extra combo points, should I eviscerate, envenom or refresh my SnD timer regardless of how much time is left?
In general, with a 4s/5r cycle, you're going to have quite a bit of extra SND time by the time your cycle is finished. That's OK -- that's how it's supposed to work. Just refresh SND once you have the proper amount of combo points. Don't bother building up to 5 combo points, as this just separates your Ruptures more. This is what the spreadsheets mean when they recommend a "SND cut" cycle.

That said, a 5s/5r rotation is usually only a couple DPS different from 4s/5r, so if you do build to 5 combo points instead, it's not really hurting you. Although keep in mind that by using 5pt SND, you're actually increasing the extra time on SND you'll end up with at the end of the cycle. It's not a bad thing, though.

Most people seem to add in a 5pt Eviscerate into their cycle when they use AR. Something like 4s/5r/5e then return to your normal cycle since AR should be almost up by that point. As long as you don't let SND drop it should be fine.
#2640SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Jezz
What's the general feeling about a hemo build at the moment? Is the debuff worth it for raid DPS?

I have searched this thread but couldn't find very up-to-date information, though it is definitely possible I missed it.
#2641SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1mctl
Hi,

After reviewing one of my guild's WWS log, I was interested in calculating the Sword Spec damage.
From the WoW raw log, I extracted every event with "Sword Specialization" and copied events with the same timestamp to get the Sword Spec damage. I was quite surprised to see that most of the Sword Spec damage was reflecting my OH damage.
I was always convinced that I should have a MH attack proccing off the Sword Spec, and that this MH could miss, be dodged, glance, hit and critically hit. At least, that's my understanding of the Sword Spec.

I went to Dire Maul and started attacking those poor Gordok Spirits from behind.
For my tests, I removed every item that could proc, haste, etc and took two different weapons to easily differenciate the MH damage from the OH damage.
The log file (22 minutes) is here : log file

Damage is consistent with the weapons and the AP I had during those tests (1294), although I have no idea how much armor these spirits have.
1. MH (2.6 weapon speed, 2-4 damage) :
- normal hit : 178-180
- critical hit : 356-360
2. OH (2.3 weapon speed, 14-26 damage) :
- normal hit : 125-132
- critical hit : 250-264

This was my first and although the configuration is not the best I could get for the test, especially the weapons and the duration (and maybe other things), I'll understand if you throw that to my face. Nevertheless, am I wrong to assume that the Sword Spec is not working as intented or is it related to other factors such as lag or anything else ? Is there any way to be 100 % sure that the Sword Spec really procs MH attacks ?
Thanks.
#2642SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Bluur
Originally Posted by mctl View Post
Hi,

After reviewing one of my guild's WWS log, I was interested in calculating the Sword Spec damage.
From the WoW raw log, I extracted every event with "Sword Specialization" and copied events with the same timestamp to get the Sword Spec damage. I was quite surprised to see that most of the Sword Spec damage was reflecting my OH damage.
I was always convinced that I should have a MH attack proccing off the Sword Spec, and that this MH could miss, be dodged, glance, hit and critically hit. At least, that's my understanding of the Sword Spec.
The sword spec "proc" is at the same time as your swing. The resulting extra swing comes shortly after. Hence, you're seeing most of your sword spec procs COMING from your offhand.

Look at the timestamps on your mainhand swings - every time you get a proc it should be a shorter duration between the previous swing and your next mainhand swing.

To make it really obvious, use a super low dps offhand.
#2643SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Rosvall
Originally Posted by drumbum View Post
That said, a 5s/5r rotation is usually only a couple DPS different from 4s/5r, so if you do build to 5 combo points instead, it's not really hurting you. Although keep in mind that by using 5pt SND, you're actually increasing the extra time on SND you'll end up with at the end of the cycle. It's not a bad thing, though.
Well,
3 SnD 5r gives you as much rupture upptime/minute possible.
5 SnD 5r gives you less rupture, but since your SnD's are cheaper (Relentless strikes) you can fit in more Sinister Strikes/ minute.

The later is not commonly worth it, but when you get 4 t6 your instants do more damage, and at this point it will be worth it.
#2644SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Aldriana
It's not so much that 4/5 T6 set bonus, per se, as the fact that SS scales faster with AP, and with crit and armor pen as well; as your gear improves, your SS thus becomes relatively stronger, and thus 5s5r catches up with 3s5r and 4s5r. The 4/5 T6 helps, to be sure, but the exact time when the cycle even out is, for most people, a somewhat higher level of itemization than most people have when they first get 4/5.
#2645SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1drumbum
Originally Posted by Rosvall View Post
Well,
3 SnD 5r gives you as much rupture upptime/minute possible.
5 SnD 5r gives you less rupture, but since your SnD's are cheaper (Relentless strikes) you can fit in more Sinister Strikes/ minute.

The later is not commonly worth it, but when you get 4 t6 your instants do more damage, and at this point it will be worth it.
I think you're missing my point though. Have you actually looked at the difference in DPS between 3s/5r and 5s/5r at a normal gear level? Usually it's in the ballpark of just 5-10 DPS. That's nothing. And on top of that, 3s/5r has a higher chance of dropping SND due to unlucky lack of procs during a cycle. To me, the cycle is only worth it if you can keep SND active exactly 100% of the time. If it drops even say a combined two seconds over the course of a boss fight, I'm willing to bet that will equate to more than a 10 DPS loss over the course of the fight than if it hadn't. Since there's virtually no chance of SND dropping in a 5s/5r cycle, alternatively, you might actually do MORE damage using 5s/5r in a real raid situation.

Basically I'm not arguing that people shouldn't be using shorter cycles in the general case. However, it's important to realize that if you struggle even a tiny amount to keep SND active in the cycle you are running, then you're probably actually losing the small gain you are trying to get by shortening your cycle in the first place. Mainly I wanted to caution those individuals who think they are improving their damage output by trying to maintain a cycle that is borderline sustainable. In practice they may be doing the opposite.
#2646SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Rosvall
Originally Posted by drumbum View Post
I think you're missing my point though. Have you actually looked at the difference in DPS between 3s/5r and 5s/5r at a normal gear level? Usually it's in the ballpark of just 5-10 DPS. That's nothing. And on top of that, 3s/5r has a higher chance of dropping SND due to unlucky lack of procs during a cycle. To me, the cycle is only worth it if you can keep SND active exactly 100% of the time. If it drops even say a combined two seconds over the course of a boss fight, I'm willing to bet that will equate to more than a 10 DPS loss over the course of the fight than if it hadn't. Since there's virtually no chance of SND dropping in a 5s/5r cycle, alternatively, you might actually do MORE damage using 5s/5r in a real raid situation.

Basically I'm not arguing that people shouldn't be using shorter cycles in the general case. However, it's important to realize that if you struggle even a tiny amount to keep SND active in the cycle you are running, then you're probably actually losing the small gain you are trying to get by shortening your cycle in the first place. Mainly I wanted to caution those individuals who think they are improving their damage output by trying to maintain a cycle that is borderline sustainable. In practice they may be doing the opposite.
Well, having TT's it's really 0 problem keeping up a 3/5 rotation. And dropping SnD for a total of 10 seconds on the only really dps fight there is now, bruttalus. So 6 min at 2k dps at 64% white damage.

1280dps of that fight is white.
984 without SnD.

10 sec of 360sec is 2.8%.

So 1280*0.972 + 984*0.028 = 1271,712.
So you loose about 8dps by letting SnD drop in the MOST "White damage" friendly fight in the whole game. (More than teron since he turns and thus can parry + higher armor = less rupture/poison damage).

It's really just how well you want to play your rogue. Are you okey with not doing your best because it's easier. Good for you. If you want to be the best you can, Go for it!
#2647SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Aldriana
Well, first, I think you're underestimating the contribution of SnD; most rogues in my guild run at least 68% white on Brutallus, and more like 2400 DPS rather than 2000 (with our Warglaive rogue being even higher on both counts). Regardless, I thus make the numbers 1632 white DPS with SnD, and 1209 without; hence 2.8% SnD uptime loses a direct 12 DPS... plus about 10 energy from Combat Potency procs, which is a couple more DPS over the course of the fight. Thus, I'd say the DPS loss is more like 15 than 8.

Now, you might argue that 15 DPS is not that big a deal either... though it's already enough to cover the gap between the two cycles for most Tier 6 rogues (for me, the cycles are less than 5 DPS different in theory, so I'd rather run the safe cycle than give up 15 DPS to SnD drops). But, lets answer the real, correct question - what do you gain in exchange for your 10 seconds of lost SnD? I mean, even by your numbers (much less mine) each second of SnD downtime costs you almost 300 DPS while it's down, and each combo point spent on it gains you over 4 second of uptime. Thus, a combo point spend on SnD gains almost 1300 damage, whereas each spent on, say, Rupture (assuming 300 damage/tick Rupture) is only worth about 400 damage. Now, the reality of cycles means you can't actually trade them off on a 1 to 1 basis... but given the 3:1 ratio, I think it's fair to say that more often than not, it's better to keep SnD up than try to eke out a little extra Rupture uptime. But hey, if you're okay with not doing your best because it's harder, good for you.
#2648SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Rosvall
True that aldriana, but he said "Normal gear values". I don't really know what he meant about that. And he's in PvP gear, so I assumed "Normal" is about t5/few part early BT.

You won't be doing more than 2000 dps on brutallus with that mate. And you could also argue that loosing 10 sec of SnD on a 6 min fight with tea puts you as a quite slacky rogue overall.

How ever, I do not argue with you with my gear level. 5/5 is more damage, safer, works better with AT trinket, I use it. Why wouldn't I?
This argument was about levels where 3/5 is actually preferable than 5/5.
#2649SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1drumbum
To be clear, I'm not talking at all about my own gear. It's purely a hypothetical discussion.

Anyway, the sustainability of a 3s/5r rotation is based mostly on your hit rating, expertise, and haste -- or more directly, your average energy regen. Basically my post was mostly in response to the claim that a 5s/5r cycle "is not commonly worth it, but when you get 4 t6 your instants do more damage, and at this point it will be worth it." I was simply trying to point out that 3s/5r is not always superior to 5s/5r even at lower gear levels. I also wanted to demonstrate that the difference is a lot smaller than most make it out to be, so as to discourage people from taking an overly tight cycle thinking they are substantially increasing their damage output by not "wasting" SND time.

I underestimated how much SND downtime you'd need to cover a 10 DPS difference, but the point is still valid.
#2650SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Grimmlokk
Originally Posted by Tarquin View Post
I should probably regem but I'm not yet sure if I'm going to try Mutilate when I get a Fang of Vashj.

As someone who did exactly that out of sheer boredom(was using Dragonstrike from start of T5 until last keying Vashj kill), let me say this: Don't do it! Not if you are used to combat and gemmed/geared for it with lots of hit. The poison requirement will drive you nuts on trash, especially in MH, and the lower damage will really get on your nerves if you're already frustrated like this. Mutilate will be fun for a week, and from then until you switch you will be completely fed up with it. I grabbed badge fists because Anetheron is a prick, but even if I hadn't I might have switched back to my stupid mace by now.
#2651SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Tarquin
Originally Posted by Grimmlokk View Post
As someone who did exactly that out of sheer boredom(was using Dragonstrike from start of T5 until last keying Vashj kill), let me say this: Don't do it! Not if you are used to combat and gemmed/geared for it with lots of hit. The poison requirement will drive you nuts on trash, especially in MH, and the lower damage will really get on your nerves if you're already frustrated like this. Mutilate will be fun for a week, and from then until you switch you will be completely fed up with it. I grabbed badge fists because Anetheron is a prick, but even if I hadn't I might have switched back to my stupid mace by now.
I actually was Mutilate for most of T4 content, only respeccing Combat once we got to Hydross. I really enjoyed the hectic feel of it and the constant button-pushing; my primary worry right now is that 2.4 absolutely destroyed my framerate for some reason and that's going to make Mutilate highly impractical. If I can figure it out, I'll more than likely be respeccing depending on available weapon drops anyway.
#2652SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Himmel
I replaced my Sinister Strike with simple macro:

/Startattack
/Cast Sinister Strike

This helps on trash if you tab-target between multiple mobs, as if you press SS to attack next mob and out of energy white DPS will not start until first SS landed.

Also I made PVE DPS cycle controlled by one button wich helps to do it smooth and with good precision:
Mouse wheel up: Sinister Strike
Mouse wheel down: Slice and Dice
Scroller (wheel) click: Rupture

Hope this post helps with rogue control optimization.
#2653SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Flerix
I have a question for you guys, according to my spreadsheet my rotation should be 3.6snd/5r, I bumped up my 3.6 to a 4snd/5 rupture and im still finding that snd drops almost constantly for about 1 second. So today I figured id just go up to a 5snd/5r and with this rotation im able to maintain without snd dropping.

My question is, is it really necessary for me to go up to a 5snd/5r rotation. I think i should be able to keep a 4snd/5r rotation with little trouble but its just not happening. I dont think Im doing anything wrong, i suppose it could be extremely unlucky CP procs but this happens quite frequently. There was one time on teron that I was able to maintain a 4/5 cycle through energy queuing but I hit a bad string on CP procs and my snd started dropping again.

Any thoughts?
#2654SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Salain
Having frequented this thread quite often as of late, I've done my best to avoid posting because I'm very aware that I'm no where near the caliber as many of you. I'm just so stuck on something right now, that I just can't help but ask for some help:

With the badge loot on the Isle of Quel'Danas having recently been unlocked, I've already bought the new pants, belt, ring and chest because they were obvious upgrades for me. What I cannot decide now is if I should purchase the [Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality]. I currently wield the [Talon of Azshara] and, considering how not easy it was to get, I'm reluctant to replace it. Just eyeing both weapons over, I'm leaning towards the Fist, but I don't know if the extra hit from Sword Specialication is working better for me.
I've attempted to use the speadsheets available, but I don't have (or have any access to) Microsoft Excel, so I don't have the ability to utilize them. I'm only sitting at 64 badges right now and I really want to know if getting that first weapon is worth working towards or if I should just by a bunch of [Nether Vortex] to put on the Auction House.

Be gentle,
Salain
#2655SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Latito
The essential problem with running a cycle other than 5s/5r (for combat non-dagger builds anyways) is that if you don't proc ruthlessness and/or relentless strikes, you're more or less doomed.

Consider a 3s/5r cycle:
Hit SnD at 65 energy, relentless strikes does not proc, you now have 40 energy. Ruthlessness does not proc either. Sinister strike a bit and drop a rupture.. again, ruthlessness does not proc. Thus, you have to do 8 Sinister Strikes to get your 8 combo points in 21.75 seconds. Assume an average of 13 energy per second, that gives you 282.75 energy, roughly 40 short. Now, with energy queueing you would have been able to gain the 8 combo points *just* as SnD drops, but not have the additional 25 required to refresh SnD. You now have to wait a full 4 seconds to gain the energy required to refresh SnD and further you start the next cycle at 15 energy as opposed to 40. The chance of this happening is actually reasonably high, especially considering I'm assuming an even rate of combat potency. If you assume Ruthlessness and Relentless strikes proc on all finishers (only happens 21.6% of the time) you would need 6 combo points (240+ energy) to maintain the cycle. This would require a minimum of 2 combat potency procs in 20 seconds. So even when all the finisher-based procs go your way (the significant minority of the time), you STILL require a few combat potency procs.

Spreadsheet cycles are built on averages. In any given cycle, your luck can be significantly far away from average. If you had an energy pool several times larger, a tighter cycle which more closely approximates the spreadsheets predicated average sustainable cycle would be a lot more plausible. But we all have 100 energy max, and as such cycles can't be completely averaged out.
#2656SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Gryzemuis
Originally Posted by Salain View Post
and, considering how not easy it was to get, I'm reluctant to replace it.
I totally understand you.
However, the spreadsheets compute dps value. Not emotional value. Nobody can help you there.


I've attempted to use the speadsheets available, but I don't have (or have any access to) Microsoft Excel, so I don't have the ability to utilize them.
You do have the ability to utilize them.
The spreadsheet(s) will work in both Excel and OpenOffice. OpenOffice is free. Although a few features (like armory import) will not work. But you can compute your dps, compare gear, and everything that is required to make an informed decision.

www: OpenOffice.org - The Free and Open Productivity Suite
#2657SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Salain
Originally Posted by Gryzemuis View Post
I totally understand you.
However, the spreadsheets compute dps value. Not emotional value. Nobody can help you there.
Heh, that's why I wanted to be positive that the fist weapon would be better for me.

Thank you for letting me know about OpenOffice. I hadn't seen it anywhere before, and I'll try not to bug you guys again.
#2658SourcePosted on <=2.0.0evild00er
I have a theory which I cannot currently varify as the required gear is not available to me. I am 4/5 t4 and our guild is starting on SSC so I have a fair way to go before t6 but if someone could do a test for me (or if someone already has) I would appreciate it. Basically I understand why having a fast offhand is important for combat rogues, but once you reach the hit cap and are sure of strong sustainable strikes is it possible to build a strong haste set with 2 slow weapons? It seems to me that the extra strong crits from a slow offhand added to the various speed increasing abilities (SS, blade flurry, berserking etc) and a strong haste set should increase DPS significantly without compromising combat potency. As I said I cannot test this myself but would be very interested to see some numbers if they are available. Thanks
#2659SourcePosted on <=2.0.0 Aldriana
Well, so, it's certainly the case that with enough haste you can make a somewhat slower OH give less pathetic energy returns; but it's also true that you can take that same amount of haste and use it to make a fast weapon give *even better* energy return.

Also, the fundamental reason a fast OH is good with sword spec has more to do with the relative speed of your two weapons than it does the absolute speed of either; what's relevant for sword spec is not that you're attacking every second, but that you're attacking twice as fast as your MH weapon.

It should also be kept in mind that the amount of haste that can be stacked is still small on the order of weapon speeds; with end-Sunwell gear you could pretty reasonably have ~300 haste... but that's a 20% speed increase, akin to making a 1.8 speed weapon swing at 1.5 or a 1.5 swing at 1.25. It's not going to take a 2.6 OH and make it give the combo point regen of a 1.4.

So, basically: while it's true that haste will increase the number of SS procs and CP procs, it's still true that you want a slow MH and a fast OH to build off of. In fact, the OH speed becomes, if anything, even more important than it already was, since as itemization improves the damage return on a given amount of energy improves as well, such that the scaling of damage from weapon speed is actually even a bit better than the scaling of damage from weapon damage.
#2660SourcePosted on <=2.0.0drumbum
Originally Posted by evild00er View Post
It seems to me that the extra strong crits from a slow offhand added to the various speed increasing abilities (SS, blade flurry, berserking etc) and a strong haste set should increase DPS significantly without compromising combat potency. As I said I cannot test this myself but would be very interested to see some numbers if they are available. Thanks
You seem to have a misguided understanding of the effect of haste on different speed weapons. A slower weapon does not gain any additional benefit from haste compared to a fast weapon.
#2661SourcePosted on <=2.0.0evild00er
Thanks for the quick reply. I didn't realize how limited haste gear was so with that knowledge I see it is an unattainable prospect but its' good to think outside the box every now and then.
#2662SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Kaay
Quick question (excuse me and fell free to tell me to piss of if its been asked and ansewerd) But with the AP weapon oil would it be better to use that on your OH rather than DP? If its not better than DP how about instant (we use instant on brutallus so its easier for our ret pally to keep his jugments up.)
#2663SourcePosted on <=2.0.0 Aldriana
There's been no official testing of the proc rate that I'm aware of, so it's hard to give certain answers. From what I've heard anecdotally about the proc rate, Deadly Poison OH will be better by a fair margin. As for replacing Instant Poison... my guess would be yes, particularly if you run an Enhancement Shaman. But until we get certain proc rate information, we can't say anything for certain.
#2664SourcePosted on <=2.0.0
Edited on *estimate*Patch 2.4.1
Kaay
Originally Posted by Flerix View Post
I have a question for you guys, according to my spreadsheet my rotation should be 3.6snd/5r, I bumped up my 3.6 to a 4snd/5 rupture and im still finding that snd drops almost constantly for about 1 second. So today I figured id just go up to a 5snd/5r and with this rotation im able to maintain without snd dropping.

My question is, is it really necessary for me to go up to a 5snd/5r rotation. I think i should be able to keep a 4snd/5r rotation with little trouble but its just not happening. I dont think Im doing anything wrong, i suppose it could be extremely unlucky CP procs but this happens quite frequently. There was one time on teron that I was able to maintain a 4/5 cycle through energy queuing but I hit a bad string on CP procs and my snd started dropping again.

Any thoughts?
Duno if its been said but when you do get lucky with CP procs/ruthlesness and you have 3-4+ secs spare on SnD dont hit it straight away let your energy build until its reasonably high (say 70+) then use the next SnD. It shouldnt drop off often then. Easy enough with an energyticker/slice watcher of some description.

Last edited by Kaay : Today at 3:22 AM. Reason: typos
#2665SourcePosted on <=2.0.0kwinto
Originally Posted by Salain View Post
What I cannot decide now is if I should purchase the [Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality]. I currently wield the [Talon of Azshara] and, considering how not easy it was to get, I'm reluctant to replace it.
Originally Posted by Gryzemuis View Post
I totally understand you.
However, the spreadsheets compute dps value. Not emotional value. Nobody can help you there.
I disagree. First thing is: it's a game and even elitist jerks need to have fun from the gear, not only frustration from deleting it
And second thing: it's not always obvious that using spreadsheet when changing weapons needs you to update talents. Especially remove points from vile poisons, when changing from 2*swords to fist/sword. Take a look at "Rough DPS" to estimate DPS gain in both cases (both weapons and talent specs). In my case, changing from Talon to Vanir's effects in +few DPS with enhancement shammie and WF, but -few DPS with IP.
#2666SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Casterbridge
Hey guys, I know this probably isn't the best place to ask but, I'm looking for a page, even on EJ that talks about maxamizing raid dps, for the whole raid.

Stuff such as Ideal Group compositions, blessing priorties etc.

I know all this information is out there as I've seen most of it, I'm just curious if anyone here knows where a nice summary page, or even thread would be located that deals with it as a whole instead of individual classes.

Thanks.
#2667SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Professor Hurt
Originally Posted by Flerix View Post
I have a question for you guys, according to my spreadsheet my rotation should be 3.6snd/5r, I bumped up my 3.6 to a 4snd/5 rupture and im still finding that snd drops almost constantly for about 1 second. So today I figured id just go up to a 5snd/5r and with this rotation im able to maintain without snd dropping.

My question is, is it really necessary for me to go up to a 5snd/5r rotation. I think i should be able to keep a 4snd/5r rotation with little trouble but its just not happening. I dont think Im doing anything wrong, i suppose it could be extremely unlucky CP procs but this happens quite frequently. There was one time on teron that I was able to maintain a 4/5 cycle through energy queuing but I hit a bad string on CP procs and my snd started dropping again.

Any thoughts?
I would say it is necessary if you find SnD dropping, which you do. With my current gear, 5s/5r is the only sustainable option. Sure there are a cases where, even after energy queueing, I clip 5 - 8 seconds off my previous SnD, but I'd rather have that problem than the alternative. Plus, as mentioned elsewhere in this thread, the DPS loss going from 4s to 5s is very small, smaller than the dps loss from a dropped SnD. The added flexability of 5s is also a bonus.
#2668SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Invictus
Originally Posted by Casterbridge View Post
Hey guys, I know this probably isn't the best place to ask but, I'm looking for a page, even on EJ that talks about maxamizing raid dps, for the whole raid.

Stuff such as Ideal Group compositions, blessing priorties etc.

I know all this information is out there as I've seen most of it, I'm just curious if anyone here knows where a nice summary page, or even thread would be located that deals with it as a whole instead of individual classes.

Thanks.
There are a couple things. For group composition: Building Groups That Make Sense
There are some other miscellaneous guides in that think tank forum section, and class specific links compiled here: Quick links to prominent class threads
#2669SourcePosted on <=2.0.0saedo
Hemo

So I got into a bit of a discussion with my other guildy rogues about the hemo spec. One of them wanted to try it so I was saying at this point in gearing he'd lose more dps than the raid can gain doing that. Plugging in some spreadsheet numbers, I got basically a 120 personal dps loss, with our rogues gaining about a 12 dps gain each (combat swords). Even switched around specs to see how much a combat dagger would gain and got the number of 16 dps gain.

Now this got me thinking about the other physical dps classes as well. How much would they gain? I tried doing searches, and looked through their spreadsheets and even Rawr. Pretty much none of them even have hemo in them. Well, one did. One of the kinda outdated Feral Druid ones had hemo in it and plugging in gear from our feral (T5-T6ish) he gained about 9 dps.

Question is, does anyone know how much of a benefit hemo is to other classes? Perhaps a worst geared rogue and a specific physical dps setup can reach an inflection point for this.

So the others I can think of are:

BM Hunter - I figure they get most benefit, fast attacking pet and fast shots to consume the charges
Marks Hunter - Next would be these guys with shots and pets consuming charges
Surv Hunter - This I think would prob get same benefit as marks, I think they have similar rotations/pets to work with.
Enh Shaman - I figure they'd benefit a bit less than rogues due to slower weapon usage
Fury Warrior - Prob same as Enh shaman
2H Warrior - Prob less benefit due to slow weapon
Ret Paladin - Prob even less cause part of their damage output is magic based

Not entirely sure where to fit in Rogues and Ferals on the scale, I'd guess rogues be some where among the hunters, and the Ferals just below the hunters.
#2670SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Latito
Re: Hemo

First, remember that the dps increase per person will be dependant on raid makeup. That is, if you have just 4-5 phyiscal dps'ers, they will all gain more per person than if you had 9-12 phyiscal dps'ers. That said, even a raid with ~3 people consuming the hemo debuff will utilize 95%+ of the charges. The only (rare) case when the hemo charges will NOT be fully consumed is when you Hemo twice back-to-back, generally after a period out of combat during which you queued up some energy.

As such, there are only 2 factors when determining how much added rDPS is gained from Hemo: Average Armor per attack, Average crit rate per attack. Taking resonable averages for both, the Hemo debuff is generally assumed to be worth ~100 rDPS. Now, considering the rogue spec'ing Hemo is losing more than 100 dps, this is a net raid loss.

This topic has been discussed before and the simple answer is that at a T4 level, a single combat rogue is worthwhile. At a T5 level, its a wash. At a T6+ level, all rogues should just go combat to maximize raid dps.
#2671SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Cragzop
Hemo and switching

I too am near the inflection point between Hemo and Combat Swords. I'm sort of stuck on how to tell when to make the switch though.

I see lots of folks saying by T5 it's overall better to be combat spec'd, by that metric I may be overdue. I see other that say it's best done early T6, by that ruler I'm slightly premature.

What confuses me is how to verify this. I assume I could look at the DPS spreadsheet. The DPS value shown is not merely what I should look for in a raid but also includes an estimate of the hemo debuff's value too doesn't it? Wouldn't the test be to simply input my gear, look at the DPS and then swap talents between combat swords and hemo/swords and look again?
#2672SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Dontmindme
Well, it could be as simple as that or not. The DPS spreadsheet is assuming 100% of Hemo charges get used, which is possible on fights where everyone is on the same target, if one makes a conscious effort to not spam Hemos.

Now, there are fights where one might be attacking an off target, in those cases you might be losing charges. You might be in a group with another Hemo rogue. You might have a tendency to spam Hemos. In these cases, you need to make a judgment call based on an estimated dps loss from lost Hemos.
#2673SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Trykon
Combat rogue

I have read in your forums that Fist weapons/sword is basicaly comparable to Sword/Sword combat rogues. I am currently in mainly T-4 gear with some of the new pieces from Sunwell rep. I am looking at buying one of the new fist weapons but not sure from reading here if I need the main hand or the off hand. My current weapons are Merc. Glad. sword and the Talon blade from ZA. Can you please advise me as to which Fist weapon i should buy with badges.
#2674SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Slapstick
Originally Posted by Trykon View Post
I have read in your forums that Fist weapons/sword is basicaly comparable to Sword/Sword combat rogues. I am currently in mainly T-4 gear with some of the new pieces from Sunwell rep. I am looking at buying one of the new fist weapons but not sure from reading here if I need the main hand or the off hand. My current weapons are Merc. Glad. sword and the Talon blade from ZA. Can you please advise me as to which Fist weapon i should buy with badges.
Get both. I upgraded to them from both s2 swords and it's quite a noticeable difference.
#2675SourcePosted on <=2.0.0
Edited on *estimate*Patch 2.4.1
Towelette
Originally Posted by Trykon View Post
I have read in your forums that Fist weapons/sword is basicaly comparable to Sword/Sword combat rogues. I am currently in mainly T-4 gear with some of the new pieces from Sunwell rep. I am looking at buying one of the new fist weapons but not sure from reading here if I need the main hand or the off hand. My current weapons are Merc. Glad. sword and the Talon blade from ZA. Can you please advise me as to which Fist weapon i should buy with badges.
Buy the Mainhand Fist.

Also, use the spreadsheet to figure out if using both badge Fists will outdps a badge Fist MH and a Sword OH with a Combat Fist+Sword spec. My gut feeling is that it won't, but these things vary from person to person.

Last edited by Towelette : Today at 5:35 PM.
#2676SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Jakani
If you're not human, the only Sword offhand that makes Fist/Sword better than Fist/Fist is [Blade of Savagery].
#2677SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Aldriana
Originally Posted by Jakani View Post
If you're not human, the only Sword offhand that makes Fist/Sword better than Fist/Fist is [Blade of Savagery].
Also [Warglaive of Azzinoth].

And, for most people, [Dragonscale-Encrusted Longblade].

And, for at least some people, [Vengeful Gladiator's Quickblade]

Basically: the OH fist is a good option if you don't have access to T6 loot or Arena 3 weapons. But if you do, T6 loot and Arena 3 weapons tend to be better.
#2678SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1AgentQ13
T5 $pc vs Badge Loot

I recently picked up [Deathmantle Handguards] I had to give up the T4 2Pc but I figured that it was an upgrade and that eventually I'd get the T5 4Pc. I did not realize right off the bat that I currently have the [Tunic of the Dark Hour] and am 1 full Kara away from [Trousers of the Scryers' Retainer]. I was wondering if the T5 4Pc is worth not getting the legs, or if I should dump my chest? If I ended up with Helm/Shoulders/Gloves, I'd need to sacrifice one or the other.
Basically is that set bonus super effective, or is it not worth it over the badge upgrades?
#2679SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Vulajin
Read my user title.
#2680SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1AgentQ13
Originally Posted by Vulajin View Post
Read my user title.
Gah! My apologies for that. I honestly posted it and forgot that the spreadsheets take into account the set bonus and their value.
#2681SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Disquette
Are there good WWS parses of people using optimal cycles? The reason that I ask is that for the ones I've looked at, no cycles look tight.

The other option is that I don't know how to read WWS correctly.

My assumption:
Rupture ticks every 2 seconds, so in a perfectly tight cycle, the length of the combat (in seconds), divided by two, is how many dot ticks a rogue should have.

Now, this isn't going to be exactly correct, as you have to start combat before you can rupture. Fair enough, I'll account for that.

In spite of that, when I look at WWS parses, the dot-tick to combat-seconds ratio seems way off. I'll use Nalorakk as an example due to the fact that the fight lasts a while and is generally time-on-target friendly.

So, skipping the first page of wws results (ranked by dps) in order to avoid outliers, I started on the second page. These are people doing high dps, so their cycles would assumedly be pretty tight, right?

Well, here's what I found for the top 10 rogues on the second page:
tick  seconds  sec/tick
40     140       3.5
35     142       4.1
48     125       2.6
42     124       3.0
47     125       2.7
31     128       4.1
31     129       4.2
30     131       4.4
32     131       4.1
43     141       3.3
Note that for the "seconds", I subtracted 24 seconds off the fight time to assume that amount of build up before the first rupture.

I apologize if this has already been covered, but I was having a lot of trouble keeping 100% SnD and 100% rupture uptime using a 4s/5r cycle (which I assume is the goal), which prompted me to look into how the high dps'ers do it. That's when I found that the high dps'ers (that I looked at) average 3.6seconds / tick, which is 80% off from the optimal 2 seconds per tick.

I know this isn't a huge deal, as rupture is basically just filler damage, but it's sticking in my craw, and I'd be interested in knowing if my understanding the goal of the 3/5 or 4/5 cycle is incorrect, if I'm reading the WWS's wrong, or if my math is wrong. 3.6 seems so far off from 2.0 that I feel like I'm missing something here.

Thank you very much in advance - it's been a while since I've played my rogue, and I'd like to do so at least a little better than poorly, which is how I feel I'm playing at the moment.
#2682SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Latito
How would you propose to get 8 rupture ticks (16 seconds worth of rupture) to cover a 4-point SnD? The cycle is by nature not going to have 100% uptime. You get 16 seconds of rupture uptime per cycle. The more combo points you use on SnD, the longer your cycle and the lower your rupture uptime. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it is a fact. given a 3.6 second lapse on average per rupture tick, you are looking at a cycle that is (3.6 * 8) = 28.8 seconds long. This fits quite nicely into either someone who is stretching a 4s/5r cycle too far (4s = 26.1 seconds SnD), or more likely using 5s/5r and just cutting SnD's short a bit (as they should).

Unless you have the 2pc T4 bonus still, you won't be seeing that kind of rupture uptime without hurting your dps via loss of SnD uptime.
#2683SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Aldriana
The point of 3s5r and 4s5r is not to get 100% rupture uptime; it's simply to get increased uptime (usually around 60-70%, as I recall). Only 2/5 T4 rogues have a reasonable shot at 100% uptime, and they are of course not topping meters. Hence, rupture uptime will generally be significantly less than one per 2 seconds of fight length.
#2684SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Disquette
Thank you both for the responses. I think I'm going to be one of those people who do 5s/5r until I get more comfortable with the rogue in raids, and work my way down to 4s or the occasional 3s when I get lucky with c.potency and ruthlessness procs.

Trying to start out with a constant 3s/5r has been fairly disastrous for me with my gear (1.6 speed OH, no haste gear). I suppose if I'd thought about the math more, I wouldn't have thought it to be a reasonable goal in the first place.
#2685SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Towelette
Originally Posted by Jakani View Post
If you're not human, the only Sword offhand that makes Fist/Sword better than Fist/Fist is [Blade of Savagery].
It's coming up as almost a wash on the spreadsheet for me with the gear I have currently (mostly T5 and badge loot level). Switching from Combat Sword + Fist with Vanir's MH and S2 OH Sword to Combat Fist with both Vanir's weapons only gave me an increase of 6dps. That's hardly worth spending the badges on if you don't already have every other badge upgrade available, and even then it'd hardly be noticeable.

That is, of course, unless I'm doing something wrong. I'm thinking that may be the case as I'm actually losing DPS switching from Night Elf to Human due to what looks to be higher racial Agility.
#2686SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Jakani
Originally Posted by Towelette View Post
It's coming up as almost a wash on the spreadsheet for me with the gear I have currently (mostly T5 and badge loot level). Switching from Combat Sword + Fist with Vanir's MH and S2 OH Sword to Combat Fist with both Vanir's weapons only gave me an increase of 6dps. That's hardly worth spending the badges on if you don't already have every other badge upgrade available, and even then it'd hardly be noticeable.

That is, of course, unless I'm doing something wrong. I'm thinking that may be the case as I'm actually losing DPS switching from Night Elf to Human due to what looks to be higher racial Agility.
I agree that it's not a big upgrade, whether it's worth the badges or not is up to you. The point remains, unless you have Savagery (or better, as Aldrianna pointed out), dual Vanir will beat Vanir/Sword (unless you're human - the expertise bonus may switch things in swords' favor).

If you're using swords, you should see better DPS as human than Night Elf. I'd be really surprised if higher base agility could outweigh the benefit of 5 expertise.
#2687SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1rhea
You could keep up rupture with something like 2/4 or 3/3 but it's useless because the stronger ticks make up for it in 3-5/5. That said rupture really isn't a main source of damage (~5%) at all and it's just the most effective combo point dump.
#2688SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Towelette
Originally Posted by Jakani View Post
I agree that it's not a big upgrade, whether it's worth the badges or not is up to you. The point remains, unless you have Savagery (or better, as Aldrianna pointed out), dual Vanir will beat Vanir/Sword (unless you're human - the expertise bonus may switch things in swords' favor).

If you're using swords, you should see better DPS as human than Night Elf. I'd be really surprised if higher base agility could outweigh the benefit of 5 expertise.
That's what I was thinking, too. I'm sure it doesn't -- it's only 5 AGI. There's probably something I'm forgetting to turn on or off elsewhere on the sheet. Too early.

I am glad you mentioned this though, as one of my guild's Rogues with a MH Sword bought the OH Fist and was unsure about what spec and other weapon to go for. I didn't realize that dual Vanir Fists would actually beat out a Fist + Sword build. Until now I've been kind of unsure about how to calculate item values across different weapon specs. Thanks for making me not be lazy and "use the #$*%ing spreadsheet."
#2689SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1koaschten
Originally Posted by Towelette View Post
That is, of course, unless I'm doing something wrong. I'm thinking that may be the case as I'm actually losing DPS switching from Night Elf to Human due to what looks to be higher racial Agility.
I'd rather guess its the 5 expertise humans get for using swords.
#2690SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Akka
I may have missed something, but it seems there is inconsistency in the EP values of the first post.
It states that "1 attack power is worth exactly 1 Equivalence Point" and that "Note that all EP weights assume the following set of buffs: [...] Blessing of Kings".
But then, we can see that "1 Strength" still is considered only as "1 EP", while it should be 1,1 due to the Blessing of Kings.

And as such, I'm wondering : is Agility in the same case (that is, should I add 10 % to the value listed ?), or is the supposed error only about Strength, and is Agility value really already including the blessing ?
#2691SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Towelette
Originally Posted by koaschten View Post
I'd rather guess its the 5 expertise humans get for using swords.
Right, but it's the other way around -- rather than gaining DPS moving from the Night Elf 5agi to the Human 5exp with Swords, the spreadsheet was showing a ~2dps loss. It should have gone up, but went down instead. Like I said though, it's probably just an error on my part somewhere in the sheet.
#2692SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1kwinto
OH weapon switching

I wonder if this is possible:
put DP on normal OH, and each other poison (mind-numbing, wound, crippling) on three other OH, just to switch-and-shiv while in combat. Is it then possible to apply all over-time-poisons on single boss? I'm asking in the utility aspect, not max-dps.

And while we're at this, let me show more of my wishfull thinking (or stupidity? ) : If mongoose procs from MH and OH independently, is it possible that I change my blade after proc to another weapon with Executioner to have the possibility of another proc? Or at least 20 Agi?

Sorry if this question was answered earlier - search engine failed here for me.
#2693SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Kumar
Originally Posted by kwinto View Post
I wonder if this is possible:
put DP on normal OH, and each other poison (mind-numbing, wound, crippling) on three other OH, just to switch-and-shiv while in combat. Is it then possible to apply all over-time-poisons on single boss? I'm asking in the utility aspect, not max-dps.

And while we're at this, let me show more of my wishfull thinking (or stupidity? ) : If mongoose procs from MH and OH independently, is it possible that I change my blade after proc to another weapon with Executioner to have the possibility of another proc? Or at least 20 Agi?

Sorry if this question was answered earlier - search engine failed here for me.
I know Rogues in PvP who use different OHs in case they need to switch poisons.

But doing so in PvE will make you lose DPS and fights that require us to keep Would or Mind Numbing Poison on, we should be doing just that and forget about DP.

Also, by switching weapons you are activating the GCD (If I remember correctly).
#2694SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1drumbum
Originally Posted by Akka View Post
I may have missed something, but it seems there is inconsistency in the EP values of the first post.
It states that "1 attack power is worth exactly 1 Equivalence Point" and that "Note that all EP weights assume the following set of buffs: [...] Blessing of Kings".
But then, we can see that "1 Strength" still is considered only as "1 EP", while it should be 1,1 due to the Blessing of Kings.

And as such, I'm wondering : is Agility in the same case (that is, should I add 10 % to the value listed ?), or is the supposed error only about Strength, and is Agility value really already including the blessing ?
Yes, this is a known error, but Vulajin isn't making any more changes to this thread because he's in the process of converting the information over to the new Theorycrafting Think Tank.

It looks to me like the error is only with strength, however. The agility numbers seem to be accurate.

Originally Posted by kwinto View Post
I wonder if this is possible:
put DP on normal OH, and each other poison (mind-numbing, wound, crippling) on three other OH, just to switch-and-shiv while in combat. Is it then possible to apply all over-time-poisons on single boss? I'm asking in the utility aspect, not max-dps.

And while we're at this, let me show more of my wishfull thinking (or stupidity? ) : If mongoose procs from MH and OH independently, is it possible that I change my blade after proc to another weapon with Executioner to have the possibility of another proc? Or at least 20 Agi?

Sorry if this question was answered earlier - search engine failed here for me.
Yes, you can weapon swap and apply as many different poisons as you want to a target. Some of the more veteran PVP rogues use this technique commonly.

Also, yes you can get more than two Mongoose procs active at once by weapon swapping right after getting the proc from the weapon. However, the amount of micromanagement involved pretty much makes this a waste of time. It also resets your swing timer and triggers a GCD, which partially if not entirely erases any benefit you gain by doing it.
#2695SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1kwinto
Originally Posted by drumbum View Post
Yes, you can weapon swap and apply as many different poisons as you want to a target. Some of the more veteran PVP rogues use this technique commonly.
Does it work on arenas too? I know that I can't change resistance cloaks after battle begins, but never tried the weapons.

Also, thanks for quick answers
#2696SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1McLarge
Originally Posted by kwinto View Post
Does it work on arenas too? I know that I can't change resistance cloaks after battle begins, but never tried the weapons.

Also, thanks for quick answers
Weapons can be swapped during combat, armor can't. However, as mentioned by drumbum, it does reset the global cooldown.
#2697SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Towelette
Originally Posted by kwinto View Post
Does it work on arenas too? I know that I can't change resistance cloaks after battle begins, but never tried the weapons.

Also, thanks for quick answers
Definitely, and you should do so. I don't know any serious PvP Rogues that don't do this, especially in smaller-scale Arenas (2v2 and 3v3). It does trigger the GCD, but that's not nearly as big of an issue in PvP as it is in PvE. Weapon swapping to Shiv Mind-Numbing, Crip, and especially Wound is a great tactic depending on that classes you're fighting.

Gear cannot be changed while in combat, but this doesn't prevent you from getting out of combat and changing it via Vanish or running away. I know a couple of Rogues who do this regularly with a ninja resist set against SPriests\Warlocks, and occassionaly Mages\Druids\Elem Shaman.
#2698SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Law
The following is more of an academic thing than a practical thing, but I believe there are situations where Eviscerate is superior DPS when compared to Rupture (also my first foray into pure theorycraft, so be gentle).

Rupture damage is calculated from: AP * .24 + 1000,
and Eviscerate damage is calculated from: 1045 + AP * .15.

Assuming AP (Attack Power) = 2300, I calculated the following numbers for Rupture and Eviscerate. I also assumed 3/3 Aggression (6% increased Eviscerate damage).

Rupture: 2300 * .24 + 1000 = 1552

Eviscerate: (1045 + 2300*.15)*1.06 = 1473.4

Initially, Rupture out paces Eviscerate. But then I assumed a 30% crit chance on Eviscerate by averaging 7 normal hits with 3 critical hits:

1473.4 * 7 + (1473.4 * 2) * 3 = 1915.18

But Eviscerate is effected by armor mitigation, so I created a formula that took the damage reduction from armor out of the eviscerate, and set it equal to the Rupture damage, to find out how much armor makes Eviscerate equal to Rupture. (The formula I used for calculating mitigation was Armor/(Armor+(467.5 * 70 -22167.5)) = %mitigated):

(1 - (Armor/(Armor+(467.5 * 70 -22167.5)))) * 1915.18 = 1552

Armor = 2470.6

So, for a mob with less than 2470.6 armor, Eviscerate is the superior finisher. No boss I could find has this low armor naturally, but with Sunder Armor and Faerie Fire applied, a few bosses do fall below this line, such as Shade of Aran and Netherspite.

Again, this was mostly an academic idea, but I thought it'd be worth noting in the OP (or in the think tank, if that's where this thread is headed) what the armor value would need to be for Eviscerate to be used over Rupture.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, or am forgetting something.
#2699SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Aldriana
So, you're right in that Eviscerate does do more damage than Rupture; what you're missing is the notion of energy efficiency. The canonical reason why Eviscerate is cited to be inferior is that while it may do more damage, it also costs more energy, and so the damage per energy of Eviscerate is lower than the damage per energy of rupture.

It also might be noted that many rogues benefit from Mangle, which gives a further boost to Rupture.
#2700SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Law
Well, I did forget those two things.

Taking Mangle into account, Rupture damage looks more like this (assuming 2300 AP):

(2300 * .24 + 1000) * 1.30 = 2017.6 damage.

This makes calculating armor pointless, because even without any mitigation, Rupture wins.

As for DPE, let's assume there is no mangle, just for fun. If I modify my formula to divide the left hand side by 35, and the right hand side by 25 (the energy required to use Eviscerate and Rupture, respectively), it will then solve for the amount of armor that makes Eviscerate and Rupture's DPE equal:

(1 - (Armor/(Armor + (467.5 * 70 - 22167.5)))) * 1915.18/35 = 1552/25

Armor = -1251.7

So there will never be a case when Eviscerate is the better choice over Rupture, assuming Rupture will have the time to tick out. Or I punched that one into my calculator wrong. Either way, I'm sad :-(
#2701SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1m1rado
Just wanted to mention, because I recently discovered it, and hadn't read it anywhere else...

Improved Slice and Dice goes in the formula after T4 2pc's +3 seconds, meaning that 2pc T4 actually adds ~4.45 seconds, not 3.

After picking up my helm after holding gloves for weeks and weeks, I was simply amazed by how easy it is to hold a 1s/5r cycle, I won't be breaking T4 2pc for a looong time. =p
#2702SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Vulajin
Originally Posted by drumbum View Post
Yes, this is a known error, but Vulajin isn't making any more changes to this thread because he's in the process of converting the information over to the new Theorycrafting Think Tank.

It looks to me like the error is only with strength, however. The agility numbers seem to be accurate.
Actually, it sort of wasn't known to me, but it's a minor oversight, so I can go correct it right now. But yeah, I'm still working on the Think Tank article and therefore won't be making any changes to the post here more significant than that.
#2703SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1drumbum
Originally Posted by Towelette View Post
Gear cannot be changed while in combat, but this doesn't prevent you from getting out of combat and changing it via Vanish or running away. I know a couple of Rogues who do this regularly with a ninja resist set against SPriests\Warlocks, and occassionaly Mages\Druids\Elem Shaman.
Actually in arena you cannot swap any gear except weapons once the match has begun, regardless of whether you are in or out of combat. This was implemented somewhere around the middle of season 2 to specifically prevent people from equipping shadow resist gear against warlocks and shadow priests. Either you haven't spoken to your friends in many months or they haven't noticed yet that they gear doesn't actually change after they Vanish to leave combat.
#2704SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Latito
Re: Rupture / Evis

Also remember that as rupture scales more with AP, it only continues to get better than Evis. 2300 AP is exceptionally low for a riad-buffed scenerio. You should have at the VERY least, Battle Shout and Blessing of Might. Those 2 buffs alone contribute ~700 AP. You should also have SoE, a flash, etc. Obtaining 2300 AP really shouldn't be an issue in most "real" raid settings. Perhaps in ZA if you get really shafted, but still. This is offset somewhat by the fact that Evis scales with Crit %, while rupture does not. However you generally won't sway *too* far from 30% crit. Having over 40% is already getting quite high, 45% with an AToL trinket I suppose.. but that would then mean you likely have that much more AP also.

When comparing based on stats closer to that of an end-game rogue.. I generally have ~2350 AP before Brutallus is pulled. This is before Battle Shout, before totems, before Elixir of Demonslaying, Expose Weakness, etc. Mid-fight my character sheet often shows me in the 3600 range as a low, peaking around 4500 with a few procs up during a WF. This is my character sheet, meaning Expose Weakness and Elixir of Demonslaying are not factored in, both of which add another ~250+ AP. Rupture ticks of 325-350 are fairly standard. With the average easily above 2500 damage per rupture, thats over 100 dmg / energy.

I guess we're beating a dead horse by this point, but you really do need the absolute most unfavorable circumstances for Evis to pull ahead. No mangle, very low AP, very high crit, very high arm Pen. Since a 50%+ crit rate on a 0-armor boss with low AP and no mangle is a pretty rare occurrence, keep using Rupture until the boss has < 16 seconds to live.
#2705SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Aldriana
Originally Posted by Latito View Post
I guess we're beating a dead horse by this point, but you really do need the absolute most unfavorable circumstances for Evis to pull ahead. No mangle, very low AP, very high crit, very high arm Pen. Since a 50%+ crit rate on a 0-armor boss with low AP and no mangle is a pretty rare occurrence, keep using Rupture until the boss has < 16 seconds to live.
...and at that point, you should probably use Envenom rather than Eviscerate, as the lost poison ticks hurt a lot less if the boss isn't going to survive more than a few seconds. Conventional wisdom is that Eviscerate is basically never worth it - ever - for bosses.
#2706SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Towelette
Originally Posted by drumbum View Post
Actually in arena you cannot swap any gear except weapons once the match has begun, regardless of whether you are in or out of combat. This was implemented somewhere around the middle of season 2 to specifically prevent people from equipping shadow resist gear against warlocks and shadow priests. Either you haven't spoken to your friends in many months or they haven't noticed yet that they gear doesn't actually change after they Vanish to leave combat.
Oh, I didn't know that. Thanks for telling me, though.

You're right: I haven't done much PvP myself, or spoken much with my old PvP friends, for some time now. That's a good change though, the ninja-resist tactic was pretty cheap (but effective!) in my opinion.
#2707SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Casterbridge
hey guys here with another question.

Been playing around with the spreadsheet and I see, as has been, mentioned that the Shattered Sun Pendant of Might beats out the Choker of Vile Intent. However I'm curious in fights where you have to run out quite a bit, and not dps as constant, heck even on trash, would it be better to stick with the choker?

Sorry if this has been covered before tried to look and see what was being said.
#2708SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Evanaescent
Originally Posted by Casterbridge View Post
hey guys here with another question.

Been playing around with the spreadsheet and I see, as has been, mentioned that the Shattered Sun Pendant of Might beats out the Choker of Vile Intent. However I'm curious in fights where you have to run out quite a bit, and not dps as constant, heck even on trash, would it be better to stick with the choker?

Sorry if this has been covered before tried to look and see what was being said.
This has already been covered and the consensus was that it is still better, due to the interruption in DPS time eating up some of the internal cooldown and thus making the proc "better" than its average. I don't believe there was any hard math backing this up, as its a hard thing to model. Conventional wisdom says though that with interrupted dps time, and a fairly high proc rate (15%, I believe?) that you're going to get far more procs just as you get back into dps time versus just as you back out.

Similar results for trash, particularly if you're at/above the trash hit cap for lower level mobs.
#2709SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Casterbridge
ah ok, sorry for the repeated question and thank you for the answer.
#2710SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Latito
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
...and at that point, you should probably use Envenom rather than Eviscerate, as the lost poison ticks hurt a lot less if the boss isn't going to survive more than a few seconds. Conventional wisdom is that Eviscerate is basically never worth it - ever - for bosses.
...except during an Adrenaline rush (although that is a net energy sink if using a 5pt Evis) or at *around* 12-16 seconds of boss-life-left. Also, if the boss will only live for < 12 seconds, you could still end up using Evis if you don't have a 5pt Deadly stack.
#2711SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Left
Originally Posted by Vulajin View Post
Actually, it sort of wasn't known to me, but it's a minor oversight, so I can go correct it right now. But yeah, I'm still working on the Think Tank article and therefore won't be making any changes to the post here more significant than that.
Is there a good location to post recommendations for the think-tank article? There is some interesting discussion regarding cycles and trinkets going on over in the Mutilate thread. It's somewhat preliminary, but the general points of debate are:

1] 2-finisher (SnD/Rupt) versus 3-finisher (SnD/Rupt/Evis) cycles; which is actually more DPS? The jury is out.
2] Evis vs. Envenom for Mutilate builds (again, the jury is out)
3] Best trinkets: For a Mutilate build, Shard of Contempt and Ashtongue Talisman appear to beat out DST, and WSC is really close to DST (within a few DPS). We're still working on this, though.

When (if) we come to any conclusions over there, what's the best way to spread that information?
#2712SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1pheaps
How does Fist/Sword do compared to Sword/Sword?
#2713SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1glowacks
Originally Posted by pheaps View Post
How does Fist/Sword do compared to Sword/Sword?
I feel a huge sense of deja vu writing this.

I think the consensus is that you should use whichever you have better weapons for, because they're extremely close. If you can get any arena weapon 2*Sword is superior due to the additional poison talents available, but if you can get a main hand fist that's better than your main hand sword then fist/sword is better. Both require a good off-hand sword; 2*fist can be better than fist/sword if your offhand fist is much better than your sword. That's true for almost any weapon spec if the difference is large enough.

Or you could just use the spreadsheets to model the options you're looking at.
#2714SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
typ0ninja
im having trouble deciding on some things and could use some help
I have both Talon of Azshara and Blade of Infamy and am unsure which to use

the DMM sheet which is the one im more familiar with had infamy better till 2 0 4 7a then it favored Azshara (+1.07 dps)
Aldriana's however, favors infamy still (+~9 dps)
I know Aldriana favors agi over hit due to its higher value when having to move alot (most fights)
is that why it likes infamy better? is that reflected in her sheet or is it just personal preferance
(Aldriana sheet also seems to favor 5agi5hit over 10 hits for me where DMM recommends 10 hit in most things)

anyhoo sorry if this is another LAWL WHICH ITAM R BETTAR post but i've been messing with the sheets a ton and still cant find an answer. All buffs should be the same I have triple checked that.

I can see both weapons being close enough to be a preference call, infamy winning out on more mobile fights and azshara winning on the stand there and beat on the boss fights.

*edit* I suck at spelling (sorry ald)
tyvm for the help and quick reply I think ill go with Infamy for now

Last edited by typ0ninja : 04/23/08 at 1:50 PM.
#2715SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Aldriana
Recently there have started to turn up some differences of this sort between the two sheets, and, as far as I know, neither DMM nor I really has a good idea as to where they're coming from. It's something I've been meaning to look at and try to resolve, but haven't had time. So, for the moment, it really comes down to which sheet you trust more. I can tell you which one *I* trust more, but I'm admittedly biased on this topic.

It might also be noted that a 1 DPS difference in either sheet is under the error of the sheets; neither sheet, despite the fact that they display your DPS to 2 decimal places, can be considered reliably accurate to within more than a couple of DPS. So what you're really seeing is that they're tied in DMM's sheet and Infamy is a bit ahead in mine.

And by the way: there's an "L" in Aldriana.
#2716SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1daverk50
I have a question on the use of cooldowns. I've currently got a macro which triggers Bloodlust Brooch, Haste Pot and BF. If pressed again it will kick off AR. From my reading I believe that using the BB, HP and BF together is the way to go but I seem to remember reading somewhere (can't refind it) that using AR with those others is a bit of a waste and it should be used alone.

Is this correct?

Thanks
#2717SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1saedo
Originally Posted by daverk50 View Post
I have a question on the use of cooldowns. I've currently got a macro which triggers Bloodlust Brooch, Haste Pot and BF. If pressed again it will kick off AR. From my reading I believe that using the BB, HP and BF together is the way to go but I seem to remember reading somewhere (can't refind it) that using AR with those others is a bit of a waste and it should be used alone.

Is this correct?

Thanks
Well it's not a waste. It's just that it gives no additional benefits than using it without those CDs. Unlike haste based ones which just get better if you stack % based ones. Though AR and BF with adds do get that bit of extra big hitting aoe when you have that situation.
#2718SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Kogan64
Combat dagger trinkets?

I have read that Dragonspine Trophy is a better trinket then Tsunami Talisman is, but I am wondering if that is for the commonly used sword spec rogues. I am a 15/41/5 combat dagger and when using the rogue gear spreadsheet from this website I noticed that TT gave me a much bigger EP then DST did.

Is itemization really that much different? If so is there information about combat dagger gear that I have missed or havent found yet?
#2719SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Latito
Originally Posted by saedo View Post
Well it's not a waste. It's just that it gives no additional benefits than using it without those CDs. Unlike haste based ones which just get better if you stack % based ones. Though AR and BF with adds do get that bit of extra big hitting aoe when you have that situation.
He is using a Bloodlust Brooch. The extra AP would benefit his Adrenaline Rush. However, sometimes you will find that with a significant amount of haste (Haste Pot, Blade Flurry, SnD and probably at least 1 of DST or Bloodlust) you just can't spend energy fast enough if you pop AR at the same time. This is most likely to come up while poping a finisher, thus eating a GCD.
#2720SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
 Aldriana
I'd be, um, surprised if it were actually the case that Dragonspine Trophy comes in behind Tsunami Talisman for, um, anyone - it sounds like you may have found a bug in the sheet. Could you upload your copy of the sheet somewhere so I can take a look at it?

Edit: While playing around with the sheet to investigate, I did find a bug with one of the cycle sheets that will affect Aldor rogues using daggers with the SSO neck which you might be hitting. See the Gear Sheet thread for the problem and the fix to it.

Last edited by Aldriana : 04/23/08 at 3:53 PM.
#2721SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Kogan64
Thank you Aldriana it confused me alot since Hourglass of the unravler hit a 350 rating on the sheet also.

Oh, now I took my necklace off and put on the PVP one and numbers are looking consistant. My 103 DPS badge dagger is no longer worth 170 points. ( I cried a little when I saw that )

Last edited by Kogan64 : 04/23/08 at 4:41 PM. Reason: Added info
#2722SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Dontmindme
Originally Posted by typ0ninja View Post
im having trouble deciding on some things and could use some help
I have both Talon of Azshara and Blade of Infamy and am unsure which to use

the DMM sheet which is the one im more familiar with had infamy better till 2 0 4 7a then it favored Azshara (+1.07 dps)
Aldriana's however, favors infamy still (+~9 dps)
I know Aldriana favors agi over hit due to its higher value when having to move alot (most fights)
is that why it likes infamy better? is that reflected in her sheet or is it just personal preferance
(Aldriana sheet also seems to favor 5agi5hit over 10 hits for me where DMM recommends 10 hit in most things)

anyhoo sorry if this is another LAWL WHICH ITAM R BETTAR post but i've been messing with the sheets a ton and still cant find an answer. All buffs should be the same I have triple checked that.

I can see both weapons being close enough to be a preference call, infamy winning out on more mobile fights and azshara winning on the stand there and beat on the boss fights.

*edit* I suck at spelling (sorry ald)
tyvm for the help and quick reply I think ill go with Infamy for now
My guess is that you have Aldriana's sheet set to "weighted" which will value agility slightly more due to it's dodge component (which likely explains why agi/hit gems are also preferred). With the default gear set on the DPS sheet, I have them as a virtual dead-heat (showing maybe a 0.66 DPS edge to the Talon. That said, there is some very solid theorycraft around the idea that hit is slightly less valuable in fights with movement and crit is more valuable (which is a component of agility). So on that basis, given the small difference displayed on the DPS sheet (which is modeling a static fight where one never moves), I'd lean toward Infamy. They are virtually even in static fights and Infamy should theoretically be stronger in fights with movement.
#2723SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Vulajin
Originally Posted by Left View Post
Is there a good location to post recommendations for the think-tank article? There is some interesting discussion regarding cycles and trinkets going on over in the Mutilate thread. It's somewhat preliminary, but the general points of debate are:

1] 2-finisher (SnD/Rupt) versus 3-finisher (SnD/Rupt/Evis) cycles; which is actually more DPS? The jury is out.
2] Evis vs. Envenom for Mutilate builds (again, the jury is out)
3] Best trinkets: For a Mutilate build, Shard of Contempt and Ashtongue Talisman appear to beat out DST, and WSC is really close to DST (within a few DPS). We're still working on this, though.

When (if) we come to any conclusions over there, what's the best way to spread that information?
I'll subscribe to that thread and read it a bit more often. (I don't usually check the main forums so often these days, so threads I haven't subscribed to often get overlooked.)

I seem to recall that you (or possibly someone else) were doing some work on a Mutilate simulator which could more accurately gauge the DPS of such builds. How's that coming along -- or has my memory failed me?
#2724SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Left
Originally Posted by Vulajin View Post
I'll subscribe to that thread and read it a bit more often. (I don't usually check the main forums so often these days, so threads I haven't subscribed to often get overlooked.)

I seem to recall that you (or possibly someone else) were doing some work on a Mutilate simulator which could more accurately gauge the DPS of such builds. How's that coming along -- or has my memory failed me?
Neshalin was, I believe. I did some work on Aldriana's DP simulator, adapting it for Mutilate, but that wasn't a full Mutilate simulator. Neshalin's was an actual Mutilate simulator, but I don't know how it's coming.

A note - that thread (like this one) has a lot of people asking for advice or posting WWS for illustration, but the theory posts are wedged in there as well.

For reference (for others): [Rogue] Mutilate Raid DPS Discussion

EDIT: Thanks to Hive for the correction.

Last edited by Left : 04/24/08 at 12:38 PM.
#2725SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Hive
Originally Posted by Left View Post
Neshalkin was, I believe. I did some work on Aldriana's DP simulator, adapting it for Mutilate, but that wasn't a full Mutilate simulator. Neshalkin's was an actual Mutilate simulator, but I don't know how it's coming.

A note - that thread (like this one) has a lot of people asking for advice or posting WWS for illustration, but the theory posts are wedged in there as well.

For reference (for others): [Rogue] Mutilate Raid DPS Discussion
*Neshalin.

From what she has been saying in our rogue channel she's making some good progress. Hopefully there will be an accurate Mutilate spreadsheet available soon if she makes a breakthrough. I know I'm bursting to try it on a BT run one day when we're not in sunwell.
#2726SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Ditsy
The World of Warcraft Armory

Is it the smart play for me to get the BoJ fist OH to go with my sword MH?

If so, what is the right spec for the mixed weapons?

Thanks!!
#2727SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Wickedchild
Theres an awesome post here that basically explains all that stuff in an easy to read and understand way: Roguecraft 101

Suggest you read it.
Maybe check out the spreadsheet linked at the bottom as well.
#2728SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Azuj
Originally Posted by Ditsy View Post
The World of Warcraft Armory

Is it the smart play for me to get the BoJ fist OH to go with my sword MH?

If so, what is the right spec for the mixed weapons?

Thanks!!

The smart play is for you to download the latest spreadsheets and input your gear into them to determine what your best upgrade path should be. The SMARTER play would be for you read through the last 10 pages of this thread and the Rogue Gear spreadsheet, along with their respective first posts to really see that this topic has been talked to death and you didn't bother searching either thread to read about this exact same topic.
#2729SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Shroomism
I apologize in advance if this has been covered in this thread.. but I have been unable to find any recent data regarding Executioner vs. Mongoose on MH. I realize that this thread and the recent spreadsheet say that 2x mongoose is superior, but I am in question. Basically, I was one of the many rogues who put Executioner on my MH after seeing the flawed data, stating that Exec is better than mongoose once you reach a certain passive armor penetration.. later finding out that dual mongoose was in fact better in all instances for optimal DPS.

But my guild is currently working on Brutallus and I have been looking for every possible way to min/max and squeeze out more damage. After looking over numerous WWS reports of Brutallus kills, I armoried every rogue with <2100 DPS and almost every single one of them had Executioner on MH. Is there something I am missing here? Almost everything I can find says dual Mongoose is best. Yet, there are a ton of rogues topping the charts in Sunwell running Executioner/Mongoose.

Are these rogues just clueless and could be doing even more DPS with dual goose... or did I miss a memo somewhere?
#2730SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1saedo
Originally Posted by Shroomism View Post
Are these rogues just clueless and could be doing even more DPS with dual goose... or did I miss a memo somewhere?
Well it's not a huge difference. A few dps either way. The cost of mats to change over could just be too much for that little extra dps. But any new weapons you get you'd wanna dive straight into mongoose.
#2731SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1nalfer_077s
Fist spec (crit proc)

Ok, no one in WoW has giving me the proper answer for this, everyone goes to saying go swords... so please spare me your best spec openion and answer my question with facts.

i am a Fist spec PVE rogue. now when i equip my fist as MH, i gain %5 crit, DESPITE whatever the offhand is. even if the offhand is also FIST i would still get the 5% from the mainhand fist. so by having 2 fists i only gained 5% crit.

thats all fine to me. BUT, will the offhand fist crit more than having an offhand(sword/mace/dagger)?

should i stick to a fist offhand? or upgrade it to a better wep even if it is not Fist. keeping in mind the mainhand is Fist permanant.
#2732SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Ricard
I believe, and I'll be corrected if I'm wrong, that the 5% extra crit chance you get from your MH counts to your MH only, and doesn't include OH attacks. Since you'll be critting with MH autos and specials, it ends up being more than 50% of your damage that's bolstered by 5% extra chance to crit. So, I think you'll crit more often on offhand attacks of you stick to an OH fist, even though the 5% to main hand attacks is a bigger deal to your damage than 5% to offhand. I'm not at all certain, though, that I'm correct, so I'd be obliged if I can get some validation/correction.
#2733SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Outtasight
I have a question as to what opener to use on a boss... i didnt see it in the roguecraft 101... but is SS always the ideal

opener for raid dps? Thx for the answer
#2734SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 pewsey
Originally Posted by Outtasight View Post
I have a question as to what opener to use on a boss... i didnt see it in the roguecraft 101... but is SS always the ideal

opener for raid dps? Thx for the answer
Best opener for raid dps is always sinister strike (provided you're swords/fists/maces).

However, there's nothing more embarassing than SS crit, white hit crit, WF crit, Sword Spec Proc crit for about 12k damage in the first second of a fight. Yes, I did this on Kalecgos this week. Yes - he smacked me into the middle of next week.

Being dead severely limits your DPS.

Unless I know the tank is going to get good threat, and heavily misdirected, then I find it's best to stealth in and garotte, even though it's less opening DPS. At the end of the day, I'm not sure the 1-2k difference in damage is worth the risk.
#2735SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Aldriana
I believe there have been calculations recently on this forum that if you can start in position, Garrote at the very opening of the fight is actually marginally more damage per energy than Sinister Strike, due to the lack of Sunders on the target for the first few seconds of the fight. That said, if you have to stealth in this advantage quickly disappears... but on, for instance, Brutallus, where you can start in position and never move, Garrote is a reasonable option.
#2736SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Latito
Not to mention, Garrote [slightly] lowers the max potential burst that you can output on a luck streak of extra attack procs at the start of the fight. Ultimately, you can proc an infinite number of extra attacks if you have WF and a sword in your MH, but practically speaking.. well yea.

If you need to run to the start of the fight (Kalecgos), Sinister Strike is certainly the way to go. If you can start in position (Brutallus, Felmyst).. Garrote works nicely.
#2737SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Iluat
Question about gear

Hi all, I'm a wow player and my character is a lv 70 rogue.
I'd like to ask one thing about rogue gear and EP.
I've got a problem since blizzard applied the patch 2.4 about new badges loot, now I've got 154 badges of justice and I really don't know what to buy. Are there any possibilities to have an EP table not only for gear but also for weapons? Something that gives teh number of EP for each dps or something similar .
My problem is that at the moment I'm combat sword specced and I've got the two merciless gladiator swords, I love swords and the swords spccialization (+5% to have an extra attack), and I'd like to use badges to buy chest or waiste, but I think that using badges for the new fists and changing spec with the fists specialization (I think that the combat mechanic will be the same as swords) my dps will improve....But I'm not sure. If are there any ways to compare my actual gear (including weapons) and what I can buy with badges, I could find the best way to maximize my dps.
Anyway, I'm a PVE rogue, at the moment my guild, where I'm the main dps (not a full raiding guild), is farming kara and trying to get down the first bosses of zul'aman, waiting for 3-4 ppls to head to 25 men raid; so at the moment my gear is based on kara and some heroic drops, for example, I've got chestguard of the conniver, edgewalker boots, grips of defiesness, etc.
Thk you for reading and I'm sorry for my not-good english, I hope you answer me soon, bye all.
Iluat.
#2738SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Towelette
Originally Posted by Iluat View Post
Hi all, I'm a wow player and my character is a lv 70 rogue.
I'd like to ask one thing about rogue gear and EP.
I've got a problem since blizzard applied the patch 2.4 about new badges loot, now I've got 154 badges of justice and I really don't know what to buy. Are there any possibilities to have an EP table not only for gear but also for weapons? Something that gives teh number of EP for each dps or something similar .
My problem is that at the moment I'm combat sword specced and I've got the two merciless gladiator swords, I love swords and the swords spccialization (+5% to have an extra attack), and I'd like to use badges to buy chest or waiste, but I think that using badges for the new fists and changing spec with the fists specialization (I think that the combat mechanic will be the same as swords) my dps will improve....But I'm not sure. If are there any ways to compare my actual gear (including weapons) and what I can buy with badges, I could find the best way to maximize my dps.
Anyway, I'm a PVE rogue, at the moment my guild, where I'm the main dps (not a full raiding guild), is farming kara and trying to get down the first bosses of zul'aman, waiting for 3-4 ppls to head to 25 men raid; so at the moment my gear is based on kara and some heroic drops, for example, I've got chestguard of the conniver, edgewalker boots, grips of defiesness, etc.
Thk you for reading and I'm sorry for my not-good english, I hope you answer me soon, bye all.
Iluat.
Use the spreadsheet linked in the first post of this thread. This has also been discussed within the past few pages of this thread as well.
#2739SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Xiar
Opening with Garrote seems like the best option.

Garrote->SND and look at threat before beginning to build combo points.
#2740SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Lucke
Originally Posted by Xiar View Post
Opening with Garrote seems like the best option.

Garrote->SND and look at threat before beginning to build combo points.
This is quoted for truth. Our tank had some bad lack-of-aggro streaks last night on Felmyst, and this opening rotation is what saved us from pulling aggro.
#2741SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1buster
personally i use garotte everytime.
Even for stealthing in, it's just the time our tanks need to get a decent amount of threat.
So its like a built-in "let the tank get threat"-skill :p

(especially as mutilate rogue burst damage can be quite heavy in the beginning)
#2742SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Arindelest
Originally Posted by buster View Post
personally i use garotte everytime.
Even for stealthing in, it's just the time our tanks need to get a decent amount of threat.
So its like a built-in "let the tank get threat"-skill :p

(especially as mutilate rogue burst damage can be quite heavy in the beginning)
Well, the thing is, the time you spent stealthing in could actually have been spent on target doing DPS (hell, don't use any yellow attacks at the start if you're threat-capped), and by the time you are in range to Garrotte, it's likely that all boss debuffs are up and you're not really gaining any extra DPE by using Garrote as your opener. It's better to get on target as quickly as possible and hold back a little bit than wait a while doing absolutely no damage. Remember, DPS is a nice number but damage (in the absolute sense) is what matters.
#2743SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Acyrith
Originally Posted by Latito View Post
Not to mention, Garrote [slightly] lowers the max potential burst that you can output on a luck streak of extra attack procs at the start of the fight. Ultimately, you can proc an infinite number of extra attacks if you have WF and a sword in your MH, but practically speaking.. well yea.

If you need to run to the start of the fight (Kalecgos), Sinister Strike is certainly the way to go. If you can start in position (Brutallus, Felmyst).. Garrote works nicely.
Not to be too pedantic but it's not actually true that you could have an infinite number of extra attacks in that situation.

I'm not sure how to get into the Latex mode on these forums or I'd show the math itself, but essentially what you're doing is taking the limit of the probability as the number of attacks goes to infinity. (On that note if someone could possible explain how to use the latex here that would be great, or at least I think I remember having read there was latex installed here)

Given that the probability of an extra attack is less than one it then follows that multiplying together an infinite number of values between zero and one will in the limit given you zero. This then means that it is actually impossible to have an infinite number of attacks. In fact the only way you could have a probability greater than zero is if the chance on hit for an extra attack for both windfury and sword spec was one in both cases, and then you would end up with an infinite number of extra attacks on every swing.
#2744SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Aldriana
Yes, technically he meant unbounded rather than infinite. Although I'm not sure the distinction is relevant to most people on these forums. Suffice it to say: you can get impressive strings of chain procs that kill you if you get unlucky, which is why one generally doesn't open fire at the exact same instant as the tank.
#2745SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Ricter
With regards to the opener discussion, at what point is optimal to first Slice and Dice? Right after you pull that first combo point, or wait until you get 4-5 points for your normal cycle? I realize it's a small difference, but when all you bring is dps...

This next question may be beyond the scope of the thread, but I'll ask regardless. I've recently found myself not only class leader, but a co-raid leader. While I have a decent understand of raid mechanics, I have a lot to learn. My question (finally, I know) is what should I watching the other rogues for? I understand what to do myself, but I'm not sure what "common" mistakes are. Basically, I want to avoid the dreaded "bad class leader" that everyone whispers about.

Also, what about group composition? The classes we available are the following:

Ret Paladin (well geared)
Ret Paladin (well geared)

Combat Rogue (well geared) (myself)
Shadowstep Backstab Rogue (well geared)
Combat Rogue (moderately geared)
Combat Rogue (poorly geared)

Enhancement Shaman (well geared)

Arms Warrior (moderately geared) (Blood Frenzy - 2h)
Fury Warrior (well geared) (Has the gear to go arms 2h Blood Frenzy)
Fury Warrior (well geared)

For my purposes, "well geared" means an optimal mix of t4 and s3 gear, with a few pieces of t5, t6 mixed in. For an example, look at my armory at The World of Warcraft Armory

Moderately geared is a character running with an s3 pvp set, and maybe a few "PvE" t4 epics.

Poorly geared is a mix of s1 (mostly) and scattered blues, with a few t4 drops.

We're learning SSC/TK/MH, if that's relevant to determining group composition.

Here's what I've been running:

Enhancement Shaman (well geared)
Combat Rogue (well geared) (myself)
Fury Warrior (well geared) (Has the gear to go arms 2h Blood Frenzy)
Shadowstep Backstab Rogue (well geared)
Ret Paladin (well geared)

Thoughts?
#2746SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Cos-
Originally Posted by Ricter View Post
With regards to the opener discussion, at what point is optimal to first Slice and Dice? Right after you pull that first combo point, or wait until you get 4-5 points for your normal cycle? I realize it's a small difference, but when all you bring is dps...

This next question may be beyond the scope of the thread, but I'll ask regardless. I've recently found myself not only class leader, but a co-raid leader. While I have a decent understand of raid mechanics, I have a lot to learn. My question (finally, I know) is what should I watching the other rogues for? I understand what to do myself, but I'm not sure what "common" mistakes are. Basically, I want to avoid the dreaded "bad class leader" that everyone whispers about.

Also, what about group composition? The classes we available are the following:


We're learning SSC/TK/MH, if that's relevant to determining group composition.

Here's what I've been running:

Enhancement Shaman (well geared)
Combat Rogue (well geared) (myself)
Fury Warrior (well geared) (Has the gear to go arms 2h Blood Frenzy)
Shadowstep Backstab Rogue (well geared)
Ret Paladin (well geared)

Thoughts?
Replace the shs dagger rogue with the arms warrior. Shs dagger? Seriously? 0/0/0 would be funnier and not nearly as sad.

Snd gives the same dps benefit at 1 cp as it does at 5. Start it asap.
#2747SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Ricter
Originally Posted by Cos- View Post
Replace the shs dagger rogue with the arms warrior. Shs dagger? Seriously? 0/0/0 would be funnier and not nearly as sad.
I know, I know. My problem is he puts out top damage, as he's one of our top geared players. He's also got the gear for it. I can't get him to spec out of it either.

On the flip side, I haven't put the arms warrior in there because he's always bottom of the barrel in dps. Sure, he isn't getting windfury, but he shouldn't be that low with his gear. Meh. Thanks for the input, it'll probably happen that way.

Originally Posted by Cos- View Post
Snd gives the same dps benefit at 1 cp as it does at 5. Start it asap.
Cool, thanks.

New question:

I've put my gear through the rogue dps spreadsheet available http://rogue.raidcal.com/ However, it puts me at around 700 dps unbuffed, 1300 dps buffed. In practice, I'm running ~950 dps. I understand that I'm not perfect, and that raid encounters play out a lot differently. However, it still seems like a lot of dps behind.

I've double-checked my talents and gear. Gems, enchants, and buffs. I'm using the recommended cycle, etc. I try to stack similar cooldowns (i.e. blade flurry with a clean slice and dice cycle, etc), and have a consistent uptime of them.

The only thing I can think of is that it assumes optimal "up time" of outside cooldowns, such as unleashed rage and heroism. Even still, I don't think this would compensate for the dps difference.
#2748SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Cos-
Originally Posted by Ricter View Post
I know, I know. My problem is he puts out top damage, as he's one of our top geared players. He's also got the gear for it. I can't get him to spec out of it either.

On the flip side, I haven't put the arms warrior in there because he's always bottom of the barrel in dps. Sure, he isn't getting windfury, but he shouldn't be that low with his gear. Meh. Thanks for the input, it'll probably happen that way.

Cool, thanks.

New question:

I've put my gear through the rogue dps spreadsheet available http://rogue.raidcal.com/ However, it puts me at around 700 dps unbuffed, 1300 dps buffed. In practice, I'm running ~950 dps. I understand that I'm not perfect, and that raid encounters play out a lot differently. However, it still seems like a lot of dps behind.

I've double-checked my talents and gear. Gems, enchants, and buffs. I'm using the recommended cycle, etc. I try to stack similar cooldowns (i.e. blade flurry with a clean slice and dice cycle, etc), and have a consistent uptime of them.

The only thing I can think of is that it assumes optimal "up time" of outside cooldowns, such as unleashed rage and heroism. Even still, I don't think this would compensate for the dps difference.
Arms warriors do pitiful dps without WF. Just like Ret.

You should really look for answers in the WWS thread or the thread about the particular dps sheet you're looking at. Keep in mind those sheets do nothing to take into account bad days, bad RNG time, and any fight that makes drags you off target for any length of time kills your damage. The sheets never take that into account, how could they.

You said you're in tk/eye/mh? about the only fights the sheet will probably have a chance to come close on are morogrim and anetheron. I guess you'd see ok numbers if you got a rage with 0 Death and Decays on the melee but still.
#2749SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Towelette
Originally Posted by Ricter View Post
I know, I know. My problem is he puts out top damage, as he's one of our top geared players. He's also got the gear for it. I can't get him to spec out of it either.
No, that's just it: There's no such thing as "having the gear for it" with a ShS Backstab build. It's just 100% awful in almost every single way. I really don't know how he's outdamaging everyone in your raid unless his gear is light-years ahead of all of your Rogues, Warlocks, Mages, and BM Hunters.

Originally Posted by Ricter View Post
On the flip side, I haven't put the arms warrior in there because he's always bottom of the barrel in dps. Sure, he isn't getting windfury, but he shouldn't be that low with his gear. Meh. Thanks for the input, it'll probably happen that way
The Arms Warrior isn't there for massive personal DPS -- he's there for added raid DPS. He needs to be in the melee group for the buffs if you want his damage to be anything approaching respectable. His personal damage will almost always be pretty garbage if he's not getting Windfury. He really does need it.

Honestly? Drop the ShS Rogue from the group. Since he refuses to respec for the benefit of the raid, refuse to give him the best raid group.
#2750SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Ricter
Originally Posted by Cos- View Post
Arms warriors do pitiful dps without WF. Just like Ret.

You should really look for answers in the WWS thread or the thread about the particular dps sheet you're looking at. Keep in mind those sheets do nothing to take into account bad days, bad RNG time, and any fight that makes drags you off target for any length of time kills your damage. The sheets never take that into account, how could they.

You said you're in tk/eye/mh? about the only fights the sheet will probably have a chance to come close on are morogrim and anetheron. I guess you'd see ok numbers if you got a rage with 0 Death and Decays on the melee but still.
Doesn't recount take into account the time you're not on your target when it calculates your dps? I always assumed it did.

I'll take the suggestions about the Arms Warrior / ShS Rogue. Any other suggestions for a new rogue "leader"?
#2751SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Cos-
Originally Posted by Ricter View Post
Doesn't recount take into account the time you're not on your target when it calculates your dps? I always assumed it did.

I'll take the suggestions about the Arms Warrior / ShS Rogue. Any other suggestions for a new rogue "leader"?
How is that sheet supposed to know how much time you spend running around mid fight. Do you spend the same amount of time running from Leo as from Solarian? etc.

You need people who can get out of the fire. Teron's ghosts, doomfire, flamestrike, fatal attraction, etc. All way more of a threat then someone who enjoys a terrible spec.
#2752SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Iluat
Originally Posted by Towelette View Post
Use the spreadsheet linked in the first post of this thread. This has also been discussed within the past few pages of this thread as well.
Towelette I've read the first posts of this thread, but I haven't found what I'm seeking. I now that there's the way to have the EP from gear stats like agility, hit, crit, etc, but I'm speaking about the number of EP given by the weapon's dps.
If anyone knows the formula, something like "1 dps = 2EP" I happy to know it.
Thk anyway Towelette.
#2753SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Khazrak
I join in on this question, was wondering the exact same thing..
#2754SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Ricard
I believe Aldriana's spreadsheet will do this for you, if you open up the DamageCalcs sheet. It would be under the MHDamage or OHDamage columns.
#2755SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Havenwood
Yes, check the DamageCalcs sheet on the Gear Spreadsheet if you want a meaningful number. Unhide the DamageCalcs sheet then look at the fields Q11 and S11 for the EP values of MH and OH. As a very rough estimate, a combat rogue may fall around 9EP for 1DPS MH, and 3EP for 1DPS OH. It really does vary with gear and buffs.

Last edited by Havenwood : 04/26/08 at 1:42 PM.
#2756SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Ricard
Is it DPS? Or is it average damage? I'm referring to what's being calculated as the marginal change in those columns.
#2757SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Aldriana
Those columns are the EP value of 1 point of MH and OH DPS. Average damage turns out to be an inferior way of scoring items (particular on the OH) due to the fact that two weapons with the same DPS and different speed wind up with significantly different average damages.

Also, for those of you that were curious about the EP values of other things, row 11 of that sheet has EP values for just about everything under the sun, given that it's the entire basis of how the sheet makes gear recommendations.
#2758SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
drumbum
Originally Posted by Ricard View Post
Is it DPS? Or is it average damage? I'm referring to what's being calculated as the marginal change in those columns.
It's the EP value of adding 1 average damage.

Of course, if you are interested in the value of increasing 1 weapon DPS, you can simply multiply by the weapon speed. For example, adding 1 weapon DPS to a 2.6 speed weapon is the same as adding 2.6 to the average weapon damage.


Edit: Sorry, I misunderstood how it was labeled in the spreadsheet. (The row is labeled as "MH Damage" but is in fact DPS, not damage. I blame Aldriana. )

However, the point still stands about being able to infer one from the other. The EP value of adding one weapon damage would be equal to the EP value of adding 1 weapon DPS divided by the weapon speed.

Last edited by drumbum : 04/26/08 at 3:27 PM.
#2759SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1antonied90
Hey.. I'm relatively new to the forums but straight to the point -> The dps spreadsheet shows that the optimal cycle for me would be 4s/5r snd cut. But so far I've always been using a 5s/5r rotation. Now from what I read so far here i understand that my dps will go higher with 4s/5r but what i cannot understand is why. I just dont see the logic behind it - the rupture uptime will be more but I won't always get the 25energy proc from 5s relentless. So can anyone please explain it to me?
Also if i start using this new cycle how should i start it in the very beginning - 1s/4s/5r or straight to 4s/5r?
And finally, since I've never used the cycle I have no idea how to best use my adrenaline rush on it, so any suggestion there, please? Thank you in advance!
#2760SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1chrisrichardson
I can't see a 2.4 Mutilate spec in the original post, or on the last few pages of this thread, so I'll attempt to contribute something useful.

41/20/0
[Obviously take what you want from the first line in the Combat tree. I personally prefer Gouge for PvP/grinding viability.]

Considering you poison applications should be brilliant at end-game with decent hit rating/haste procs/fast daggers, there's no real calling to improve those.

Which leaves the only real toss up between Murder and Master Poisoner.

I'm not sure if anybody has the numbers to deduce which of the two would be more beneficial, but I'm inclined to go with Master Poisoner.

Would be great if someone could provide a response/some data, thank you!
#2761SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1drumbum
Originally Posted by antonied90 View Post
Hey.. I'm relatively new to the forums but straight to the point -> The dps spreadsheet shows that the optimal cycle for me would be 4s/5r snd cut. But so far I've always been using a 5s/5r rotation. Now from what I read so far here i understand that my dps will go higher with 4s/5r but what i cannot understand is why. I just dont see the logic behind it - the rupture uptime will be more but I won't always get the 25energy proc from 5s relentless. So can anyone please explain it to me?
Also if i start using this new cycle how should i start it in the very beginning - 1s/4s/5r or straight to 4s/5r?
And finally, since I've never used the cycle I have no idea how to best use my adrenaline rush on it, so any suggestion there, please? Thank you in advance!
Basically that's exactly what's happening. The spreadsheet believes it is worth gambling on the 25 energy return from Relentless Strikes to squeeze your Ruptures a little closer together. Now, in the general case, when the spreadsheets recommend a 4s/5r cycle, you can almost always go up to 5s/5r without even noticing a difference in your damage output. For example, I loaded your own gear into the spreadsheet with default buffs and it gives:

4s/5r SND cut = 1905.02 DPS
5s/5r SND cut = 1904.47 DPS

If you like the reliability of a 5s/5r cycle, then by all means, keep using it.
#2762SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Gern
I often find myself with way too much energy, and nothing to spend it on. I run a 1s/5r cycle, but occasionally I'll get lucky with combat potency and I'll find myself with a full set of combo points mere moments after refreshing SnD. I can't refresh rupture because it's still got like 7 seconds on it, and dumping 5cps into a SnD that I just refreshed seems like the most counter productive thing I could do. I could pop it off with an eviscerate, but then I'd only have a couple of points to use when it came time to refresh rupture. So is it best to just continue SS'ing, with a full rack of cps, until rupture is ready to be refreshed?
#2763SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Feist-Mok
Originally Posted by Gern View Post
I often find myself with way too much energy, and nothing to spend it on. I run a 1s/5r cycle, but occasionally I'll get lucky with combat potency and I'll find myself with a full set of combo points mere moments after refreshing SnD. I can't refresh rupture because it's still got like 7 seconds on it, and dumping 5cps into a SnD that I just refreshed seems like the most counter productive thing I could do. I could pop it off with an eviscerate, but then I'd only have a couple of points to use when it came time to refresh rupture. So is it best to just continue SS'ing, with a full rack of cps, until rupture is ready to be refreshed?
I think the ideal solution here, if you can see it coming, is to pop off a 3-ish point Evisc mid cycle so that you'll have 5 ready for your rupture again..
#2764SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1drumbum
Originally Posted by Feist-Mok View Post
I think the ideal solution here, if you can see it coming, is to pop off a 3-ish point Evisc mid cycle so that you'll have 5 ready for your rupture again..
I personally don't think popping a low rank Eviscerate is *ever* a good idea. I think you're better off spamming SS past 5 combo points until Rupture is finished, but I'd have to spend more time thinking about it.
#2765SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Aszune
I had a question, i didn't see it anywhere else, but i may have not looked hard enough

Is there a point on a rogue, where you can have too much haste (almost a haste cap i suppose)? Reason i ask this is cause more haste means you swing faster, which means more offhand attacks land, more combat potency procs, which would lead to you not being able to smash Sinster strike fast enough with GCD to actually use all your energy
#2766SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1drumbum
Originally Posted by Aszune View Post
I had a question, i didn't see it anywhere else, but i may have not looked hard enough

Is there a point on a rogue, where you can have too much haste (almost a haste cap i suppose)? Reason i ask this is cause more haste means you swing faster, which means more offhand attacks land, more combat potency procs, which would lead to you not being able to smash Sinster strike fast enough with GCD to actually use all your energy
That amount of haste is not really attainable. You can spend roughly 40 energy per second if you are not energy starved (one SS per 1 second GCD) which means you need about 2 combat potency procs per second to generate that much energy (10 from natural regen + 30 from two procs). With combat potency occurring on only 1/5 of offhand swings, you'd have to get your offhand swing speed to about 0.1 to generate that much energy.

With 2pc T6 SND (35%) and a 1.4 offhand you'd need roughly 937% haste to get there. Good luck.
#2767SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Killaq
Drum I would like you to review my rotations and see if you can spot any flaws with it (I'm attempting to become as efficient as possible).

I run a 3s/5r Rotation which rarely ever drops SnD, and if it does I have it back up within 1-2 seconds.

But where I often think I have flaws is on my CD rotation.
Once I have my 3pt SnD up I usually get 2-3 pts and blow AR->BF->Trink, and if the fight isn't healing intensive Blood Fury. (Yes, I am an orc rogue)

Once thats up I quickly finish my 5 pt rupture move into another 3 pt SnD and then work towards a 5 pt evis where my CD's begin to wear out, this is followed by a 3pt SnD and then a return to Rupture/SnD. By doing the evis I avoid the downtime of waiting for my rupture to wear off, and usually seems to put me above my rogue counterparts.

See anyway I could improve this? I realize rupture/evis is but a small percentage of my damage, but with the guild I raid with, it often means above or below 1-2 people.
#2768SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Towelette
Originally Posted by antonied90 View Post
Hey.. I'm relatively new to the forums but straight to the point -> The dps spreadsheet shows that the optimal cycle for me would be 4s/5r snd cut. But so far I've always been using a 5s/5r rotation. Now from what I read so far here i understand that my dps will go higher with 4s/5r but what i cannot understand is why. I just dont see the logic behind it - the rupture uptime will be more but I won't always get the 25energy proc from 5s relentless. So can anyone please explain it to me?
The increased damage from Rupture uptime will theoretically outweigh the times that you do not get the Relentless proc. However, as has been stated a couple of times in the past several pages, the total DPS difference between 4s/5r and 5s/5r is really not all that much. If you're more comfortable with the 5s/5r cycle, you can stick with it and not see much of a drop in DPS at all. It may not even be noticeable to you.

Originally Posted by antonied90 View Post
Also if i start using this new cycle how should i start it in the very beginning - 1s/4s/5r or straight to 4s/5r?
And finally, since I've never used the cycle I have no idea how to best use my adrenaline rush on it, so any suggestion there, please? Thank you in advance!
The way I've read it in this thread, and the way it makes the most sense to me logically, is to start with 1s and then build into your normal cycle. The reasoning is that SnD is extremely important to Rogue DPS, so getting it up as early as possible if desired. I do know Rogues that begin with 2 SSs for a 2CP SnD to build into their cycle, but I wouldn't go any further than that with my CPs, as you have to regen energy and extend SnD downtime to go beyond an intitial 2CPs. Going for 4CP immediately is not a good idea because you leave yourself with several seconds of time that SnD is not up. My recommendation is to just start with a 1s and then work into your cycle from there if possible.

Originally Posted by drumbum View Post
I personally don't think popping a low rank Eviscerate is *ever* a good idea. I think you're better off spamming SS past 5 combo points until Rupture is finished, but I'd have to spend more time thinking about it.
Seconding this. In recent memory, I can't recall any Evis of less than 4CP even outdamaging my SS.

Originally Posted by Killaq View Post
Drum I would like you to review my rotations and see if you can spot any flaws with it (I'm attempting to become as efficient as possible).

I run a 3s/5r Rotation which rarely ever drops SnD, and if it does I have it back up within 1-2 seconds.

But where I often think I have flaws is on my CD rotation.
Once I have my 3pt SnD up I usually get 2-3 pts and blow AR->BF->Trink, and if the fight isn't healing intensive Blood Fury. (Yes, I am an orc rogue)

Once thats up I quickly finish my 5 pt rupture move into another 3 pt SnD and then work towards a 5 pt evis where my CD's begin to wear out, this is followed by a 3pt SnD and then a return to Rupture/SnD. By doing the evis I avoid the downtime of waiting for my rupture to wear off, and usually seems to put me above my rogue counterparts.

See anyway I could improve this? I realize rupture/evis is but a small percentage of my damage, but with the guild I raid with, it often means above or below 1-2 people.
This question has been addressed in the past 10 pages or so, but I believe the answer was along these lines:
-Keeping SnD up is always the primary objective. As a rule, anything that would decrease it's uptime is generally a bad move. Have you checked the difference in damage on the spreadsheet between a 3s/5r and a 4s/5r cycle? You may actually do better switching to 4s/5r and having SnD never drop off.
-Dropping a 5CP Evis because Rupture is still ticking is not necessarily an increase in damage. Using the Evis and then going back into your cycle is going to make your next Rupture later than it normally would be, thus decreasing its uptime. You're trading X amount of Rupture uptime for an Evis, which does less damage.

Rupture being up doesn't count as its downtime. The time it takes from that Rupture to complete until the next Rupture you use is the downtime; what you're looking at is rather how best to spend your CPs and energy while it's up. Is your using Evis increasing the time between Ruptures finishing and being refreshed?

Veterans correct me if I'm wrong, but I think what it would come down to is if the damage difference of using an Evis over spamming SS at 5CP would outweigh the increased Rupture downtime. Does that sound about right?

Last edited by Towelette : 04/27/08 at 8:43 PM.
#2769SourcePosted on <=2.0.0wowmarx
There are many threads / posts about standard rogue cycles, but I haven't seen much formal theorycraft about a cycle that maximises Ashtongue Talisman uptime as part of a modified Snd/Rupture cycle.

Ashtongue:
Equip: 20% chance per combo point for your finishing moves to grant 145 critical strike rating for 10 sec.

I've often found myself following a standard t6 3snd-cut/5r cycle, but modifying it on the fly to maximise Ashtongue talisman uptime, usually doing quicker finishers if the trinket hasn't procced, or hitting a 4scut/4r cycle intermittently to give 2x80% proc chances on the trinket.

Is there any formal theorycraft about the use of this trinket and how to modify a standard 3s/5r cycle to maximise trinket uptime - and especially modifications to the standard cycle to "get the trinket back up and running" if bad luck means it hasn't procced in a few cycles
#2770SourcePosted on <=2.0.0koaschten
You should check out the dmgcalc sheet of the rogue gear spreadsheet and notice the minor differences between 3/5 and 5/5 cycles. With energy queueing you can in theory even do more dps than any sheet with 5/5 cycle and AToL suggests. A 4/4 cycle is ALWAYS inferior because your rupture is not free anymore.
#2771SourcePosted on <=2.0.0wowmarx
Indeed, having also tried the 5s/5r cycle, it works fine for some reliable trinket uptime, but again, at 10 secs trinket uptime per 5cp cycle, it strikes me there must be a way to maximise uptime further.

The problem is that I'm basically experimenting with uptime in practice, including 4scut/5r cycles, but there's a lot of improvisation here, depending on relentless strikes/potency procs as well as haste etc - so what I was wondering is whether anyone had done some formalised theorycraft on a specific ashtongue cycle that maximises that 10 second proc uptime while still maintaining a consistent cycle over time.
#2772SourcePosted on <=2.0.0 Aldriana
As it turns out, there's no real good way to increase Ashtongue Uptime without simply having more energy to spend. To get a cycle shorter than 5s5r involves using smaller finishers; and smaller finishers don't always proc. When you work out the loss of proc uptime from nonprocs and compare it to the increased uptime from a shorter cycle, it works out to be mostly a wash. As such, it's generally believed that the best cycle to make use of AToL is 5s5r, because it has uptime as good as any and allows you to do energy queuing and squeeze in a few extra SS during the buff uptime.

It also might be noted, of course, that the effects of cycle optimization on trinket uptime are small on the scale of total DPS: that is, don't totally redo your cycle around one trinket. It's not a bad trinket, but it's not good enough to change the usual rules.
#2773SourcePosted on <=2.0.0 Vulajin
Originally Posted by wowmarx View Post
Indeed, having also tried the 5s/5r cycle, it works fine for some reliable trinket uptime, but again, at 10 secs trinket uptime per 5cp cycle, it strikes me there must be a way to maximise uptime further.

The problem is that I'm basically experimenting with uptime in practice, including 4scut/5r cycles, but there's a lot of improvisation here, depending on relentless strikes/potency procs as well as haste etc - so what I was wondering is whether anyone had done some formalised theorycraft on a specific ashtongue cycle that maximises that 10 second proc uptime while still maintaining a consistent cycle over time.
Well, the issue is that uptime has specific limits since you're always making a tradeoff. If you run 5/5, then you're guaranteed to have the trinket proc on every finisher, and therefore have 20 seconds of uptime per cycle. On the other hand, if you run 1/1, you could have 20 seconds of uptime, but only 4% of the time. (In actuality, it doesn't work exactly like that for 1/1; actually, the performance of 1/1 for the trinket will be pretty good thanks to the sheer number of finishers being used.)

Obviously, for each combo point we chop off a finisher, we lose 20% chance of having the trinket proc on that finisher. Since the proc duration is 10 seconds, we can roughly estimate that each combo point reduced means an average uptime reduction of 2 seconds. However, each combo point reduced also means a shortening of the cycle. Let's assume that, for a given cycle, the uptime of the trinket is U = T/C, where T is the length of time the trinket is active, and C is the cycle duration. Now assume that reducing either finisher by one CP reduces the length of the cycle by X. In order to achieve an uptime increase by chopping off a combo point, the following condition must be met:

(T-2)/(C-X) > U
T-2 > U(C-X)
T - 2 > T - UX
UX > 2
X > 2/U

This is actually a reasonably easy condition to meet for most cycles, if you take as a baseline the cycle with the most CP invested in finishers: 5/5. This cycle has uptime of roughly 67% (determined via spreadsheet), so X must be greater than 3. There is an interesting breakpoint involved here. If X > 3, then decreasing 1 CP from 5/5 is an uptime gain; and since U is higher for 4/5 or 5/4, then 2/U is lower, therefore decreasing 1 CP from those must also be an uptime gain (since X is static); and so on, to the conclusion that 1/1 is the best trinket uptime cycle. On the other hand, if X <= 3, then decreasing 1 CP from 5/5 is not an uptime gain; and since U is lower, then 2/U is higher, therefore decreasing 1 CP from those must also not be an uptime gain; and so on, so that 5/5 is the best trinket uptime cycle. Of course, for most builds other than Mutilate, X is greater than 3, so it stands to reason that 1/1 is the greatest trinket uptime cycle.

So the real question is, how much of a gain is this, really? Well, you're not going to get 100% uptime, period. And even if you go all the way down to 1/1 for maximum uptime, you're losing a lot on your actual cycle: energy efficiency (read as Sinister Strike DPS) and Rupture DPS, both in large amounts. Between 5/5 and, say, 4/5 or 5/4, you don't lose as much DPS from the cycle itself, but you also don't gain as much uptime, so it's basically a wash. In the end, just trust the gear spreadsheet, its model is perfectly sufficient. Yes, it feels like you can "game" the trinket for better uptime, but in reality, no you can't, other than some simple energy queueing between a trinket proc expiry and your next finisher.
#2774SourcePosted on <=2.0.0 Aldriana
You need to be a bit careful with carrying that analysis through to it's logical conclusion; if your cycle gets too short, you start losing uptime to overlapping procs. For instance, in the case of 1s1r, you're doing a finisher, on average, every 3 seconds. Thus, if you get procs on consecutive finishers, the first one doesn't give a full 10 seconds of uptime - it only gives 3. So a slightly compressed cycle - 3s5r or 4s5r - may experience slightly higher uptime than 5s5r, but if your cycle gets too short, your uptime actually starts to drop off as your cycle just isn't long enough to get the full benefit from procs.
#2775SourcePosted on <=2.0.0 Vulajin
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
You need to be a bit careful with carrying that analysis through to it's logical conclusion; if your cycle gets too short, you start losing uptime to overlapping procs. For instance, in the case of 1s1r, you're doing a finisher, on average, every 3 seconds. Thus, if you get procs on consecutive finishers, the first one doesn't give a full 10 seconds of uptime - it only gives 3. So a slightly compressed cycle - 3s5r or 4s5r - may experience slightly higher uptime than 5s5r, but if your cycle gets too short, your uptime actually starts to drop off as your cycle just isn't long enough to get the full benefit from procs.
Well, I ignored that consideration mostly because it makes the math overly complex. In addition, I'd say there's about as much loss to overlapping procs as there is gain from a proc from a previous finisher carrying through extra future finishers simply due to the brevity of the cycle. All in all, I'd say it's obvious that the important consideration isn't trinket uptime anyway, and a 1/1 cycle obviously has major negative consequences such that any considerations about trinket uptime are moot.
#2776SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
wowmarx
Originally Posted by Vulajin View Post
So the real question is, how much of a gain is this, really? Well, you're not going to get 100% uptime, period. And even if you go all the way down to 1/1 for maximum uptime, you're losing a lot on your actual cycle: energy efficiency (read as Sinister Strike DPS) and Rupture DPS, both in large amounts. Between 5/5 and, say, 4/5 or 5/4, you don't lose as much DPS from the cycle itself, but you also don't gain as much uptime, so it's basically a wash. In the end, just trust the gear spreadsheet, its model is perfectly sufficient. Yes, it feels like you can "game" the trinket for better uptime, but in reality, no you can't, other than some simple energy queueing between a trinket proc expiry and your next finisher.

Thanks Vulajin, this is exactly the formalisation I was looking for.

There is clearly a tradeoff that balances out the uptime maximisation for the ATOL, I was very interested in this because the ATOL provides no passive benefits but also has no in-built limitations such as a PPM or hidden cd (making it more like a rogue talent than a standard stat-boosting trinket) - so the value of the trinket is very much a case of "what you do with it". I'll be trying out both the 5/5 as well as an alternating x/5+x/5 and see how it feels in practice with a little improvisation around the energy regen.

Last edited by wowmarx : 04/28/08 at 6:48 AM.
#2777SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Flaw
I'm sure this has been asked countless times before but there are quite a few pages in this thread.

I am currently using a 3s/5r rotation and every now and then my S&D would fall off and I would get it back up within 1-2 seconds.
What I started doing as I've become more comfortable with the healers in my guild is to use a thistle tea so that it won't fall off.

Now my question is will this suffice or would a rotation of 4s/5r be better?

P.S - How do I change the cycle on the spreadsheet so that I can see the changes between them.

Last edited by Flaw : 04/28/08 at 7:37 AM.
#2778SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Vulajin
Personally, I'd rather run a longer cycle with less chance of dropping Slice than have to use Thistle Tea to sustain it. In my experience, 3/5 requires a decent amount of consistent proc luck, even with energy queueing, in order to not have Slice drop periodically. I don't like relying that much on luck. 4/5 requires much less luck on procs, and therefore is much more amenable to periodic bad luck streaks*.

*Last week on Felmyst, after opening with my first 4s, I had a bad proc streak so bad that by the time I generated my next 4 CP, Slice was already running out, and I had to refresh it.
#2779SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Flaw
Thanks for the speedy reply, I will definitely try the 4s/5r and see how it goes.

3s/5r has been serving me well, putting out roughly 1400-1500 dps, it was never that often that S&D fell off but of course it's still a problem that it did.
I try to pool but sometimes paying attention to the fight gets in the way. *lol*

Last edited by Flaw : 04/28/08 at 7:51 AM.
#2780SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1dinesh
A bit of a sidetrack, but when I was was setting up one of my proc watcher mods, I had to look up the names of the procs from the various rogue equipments and enchants. Perhaps I was just having a Google challenged day, but it was much harder to track down than I thought it would be, mainly because none of the 4 major sites (thott, alla, wowdb, wowhead) had a link from the item page to the proc page (though some had the reverse link only).

Even though this information is static and not really analysis or theorycrafting related, it got me thinking that it might be useful to have stickied here in the 101 thread. So I offer up the list I found for due consideration here. Note that this was stolen entirely from a comment from user Xgen at curse: Rogue Power Bars | World of Warcraft Addons | Downloads
I have added a few new procs/abilities that I see most ppl around here suggested and a few more.
Coup de Grace - Tier 5 , 4 pices set bonus
Exploit Weakness - Ashtongue Talisman of Lethality
Fury of the Crashing Waves - Tsunami Talisman
Forceful Strike - Madness of the Betrayer
The Twin Blades of Azzinoth - The Warglaves haste proc ( Not tested , got only 1 warglave -_- )
Perceived Weakness - Warp-Spring Coil ( Not tested )
#2781SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1drumbum
I never really use the other sites you listed, but Wowhead at least DOES link from the item to the proc, with perhaps a couple exceptions. (From your list, the only one it didn't have a link for was the Ashtongue trinket -- although in that specific case, someone has linked to the proc spell in the comments.) You can find it by clicking on the text in the "Equip:" line in the tooltip of the item.
#2782SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1dinesh
Ahh, good to know, I never noticed that before.

In my defense, you'll notice the proc pages have a separate "Used By" tab which links back to the item, which has no reciprocal on the item page, thus confusing me.
#2783SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1kabonos
This seems like the best place to post this.
I was pushing some numbers around today and noticed that my crit rate on the character tab was always 0.295 or 0.3 less than the sum of crit from agi, rating, and talents. Anybody know what's the deal with that?
#2784SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Aldriana
That's because crit given from agility is not simply agility/40, but (agility-11.5)/40; and, conveniently, the difference between those two values is .2875% crit.
#2785SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Aaberg
I hope you can give me an answer so a small question. I've seen several places Dire Maul mentioned as a place to test procs and such on large scale test; but have yet to find which mob to go hit. I've looked as much as possible, but have resorted to ask.

Thanks in advance.
#2786SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1seminarca
Dire Maul North, behind King Gordok. There are a bunch of yellow marked ghost ogres that you can beat on without them turning around and attacking. There's a locked door on the way, but you should be able to lockpick it (or kill Mol'dar if your skill isn't high enough) or blow it up with some species of seaforium (you'll need to kill the 2 mobs near it). Aside from this, you can stealth all the way through (there are some wandering Kilrogg eyes, that you need to be careful around).
#2787SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1drumbum
Specifically, this is the mob: Gordok Spirit
#2788SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Prinsesa
Originally Posted by Aaberg View Post
I hope you can give me an answer so a small question. I've seen several places Dire Maul mentioned as a place to test procs and such on large scale test; but have yet to find which mob to go hit. I've looked as much as possible, but have resorted to ask.

Thanks in advance.
The mob you're looking for are the Gordok Spirits.

You can beat on them all day like the Blasted Lands servants, but since they do not fight back, you don't get parried. Keep in mind though that since they're still level 60 mobs, the hit/expertise caps are much lower, while your own crit rate will be higher as well.
#2789SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Feanora
After lurking on EJ for a long time, I haven't seen this topic covered in depth anywhere yet, but I don't think it warrants a new thread, so I guess this is a logical place for it.

Anyway, I've been toying for the past month or so with some more extreme energy management (as a swords rogue); that is, instead of mindlessly spamming SS, I've been trying to keep my energy as high as possible without capping out (between 60-80) normally, so that when SoC procs (or whatever other proc effects I may get in the future), I'm able to get an extra SS in. Doing very very rough math in my head suggests a very small dps increase over normal SS spam doing this (but every little bit counts, right?), and I've seen on average a slightly higher number, but this could very well just be a random luck swing. Have there been any numbers kicked around to support this theory, or am I just putting in a bunch of extra effort for no gain?
#2790SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
rhea
Regarding expertise cap... Please excuse me, my memory gives false readings about seeing "dodge" on my screen..

Last edited by rhea : 04/29/08 at 8:38 AM.
#2791SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Roguo
Originally Posted by Feanora View Post
After lurking on EJ for a long time, I haven't seen this topic covered in depth anywhere yet, but I don't think it warrants a new thread, so I guess this is a logical place for it.

Anyway, I've been toying for the past month or so with some more extreme energy management (as a swords rogue); that is, instead of mindlessly spamming SS, I've been trying to keep my energy as high as possible without capping out (between 60-80) normally, so that when SoC procs (or whatever other proc effects I may get in the future), I'm able to get an extra SS in. Doing very very rough math in my head suggests a very small dps increase over normal SS spam doing this (but every little bit counts, right?), and I've seen on average a slightly higher number, but this could very well just be a random luck swing. Have there been any numbers kicked around to support this theory, or am I just putting in a bunch of extra effort for no gain?
I tried this today in DM North on the Gordok's Spirit and got 3 WWS from it.

Wow Web Stats 4s/5r energy management
Wow Web Stats 4s/5r SS spam
Wow Web Stats 5s/5r energy management

It seems that energy management is indeed a dps increase over mindless SS spam
#2792SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Kumar
Originally Posted by Roguo View Post
I tried this today in DM North on the Gordok's Spirit and got 3 WWS from it.

Wow Web Stats 4s/5r energy management
Wow Web Stats 4s/5r SS spam
Wow Web Stats 5s/5r energy management

It seems that energy management is indeed a dps increase over mindless SS spam
You had 37% crit on SS Energy management, 25% on SS Spam.

1755 Combat Potency Procs vs 1545 on SS Spam.

The only way you can say Energy Management does better DPS is if the Cit percent is same, procs are similar and the time period for both tests is the same.
#2793SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Roguo
Originally Posted by Kumar View Post
You had 37% crit on SS Energy management, 25% on SS Spam.

1755 Combat Potency Procs vs 1545 on SS Spam.

The only way you can say Energy Management does better DPS is if the Cit percent is same, procs are similar and the time period for both tests is the same.
The test period is about the same, 12 seconds differ I think. The reason SS crit is higher is because I was waiting for mongoose to go up before SS'ing. But yes the combat potency is really random for me. All the tests were unbuffed with only trinket + weapon enchants. I might have misunderstood what you meant with the crit and potencies so sorry if I did :P. Both SS management test had 37-39% crit though so that should be a small dps gain over SS spam atleast
#2794SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Feanora
Roguo, were you waiting for double mongoose procs to use the extra SS, or did you just use it on singles? And were you using other procs as benchmarks too, or just the mongoose?
#2795SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Roguo
Originally Posted by Feanora View Post
Roguo, were you waiting for double mongoose procs to use the extra SS, or did you just use it on singles? And were you using other procs as benchmarks too, or just the mongoose?
If I got a mongoose to proc I would wait until it was around 5 seconds left and check if I would a second proc(so 2 buffs were up) and if I did not get a second proc I would spam SS. If Shard of Contempt was off the internal CD I would wait a bit for the trinket to proc before SS'ing so I could see if I would get mongoose together with trinket.
#2796SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1drumbum
Originally Posted by Roguo View Post
The reason SS crit is higher is because I was waiting for mongoose to go up before SS'ing.
Even if Mongoose had 0% uptime on SS attacks in the SS spam test, and it had 200% uptime on SS attacks in the energy queuing test (i.e. both hands procced constantly), you wouldn't see that big of a difference in your crit chance. One Mongoose proc provides 120 agility, which gives 3% crit chance, so the maximum you could possibly expect is 6% difference. You observed a difference of 12%.

Now, the problem is that your sample size is incredibly small for providing any meaningful information. You'd need a much much larger number of SS attacks before you could draw any conclusions from it. Finding a statistically significant difference between such a small DPS gain is not something you can do in 10 minutes of DPS time. This is why we use spreadsheets to eliminate variance.
#2797SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Vulajin
"Energy management," or as it is more commonly called, "energy queuing" or "energy pooling," isn't actually a new thing, though it isn't often talked about among the general rogue populace and hasn't been formalized anywhere (though that will change if I ever complete the damn TTT article). As has already been pointed out, the procedure is to allow your energy to stay at some non-zero quantity at all times, consuming it only as necessary to prevent your energy from ticking over 100.

There three main situations in which energy pooling is typically applicable, listed in increasing order of anal-retentiveness.

1) Pooling 25 energy in combination with consevative GCD usage.
2) Pooling your energy either until Slice and Dice is about to drop or you are about to tick over 100 before refreshing Slice and Dice.
3) Pooling your energy until a trinket/other proc occurs (including pooling before finishers while using Ashtongue Talisman).

Situation 1 is very common and is used by most rogues on any fight that involves interrupts. This most notably includes Reliquary of Souls phase 2, though it certainly occurs in other fights as well. Situation 2 is important for sustaining cycles like 3s/5r -- without a bit of pooled energy, even the slightest bit of poor proc luck will cause your Slice to drop, whereas a substantial energy pool will offset most such circumstances.

Situation 3 is the most involved way for a rogue to increase his DPS, since every proc has a different mechanism and cooldown (or no cooldown). It also depends on how many procs you think you should wait for before blowing your energy pool. However, if done correctly, you can actually obtain slightly better performance than the spreadsheet model.

I would venture that most PvE rogues use some form of energy pooling without necessarily having a name or standardized procedure for it. The best PvE rogues probably use it more liberally, but on most fights that aren't Brutallus there's also a limit to just how much attention you can pay to your energy bar while worrying about the actual ongoing fight.
#2798SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Weimar
Forgive me if this has been asked but a recent conversation came up between another Rogue guild member and myself.

Over at Shadowpanther's site on the PVE Weapons spreadsheet http://shadowpanther.net/weapons-pve.htm he has everything grouped together for the most part.
For my example he ranks: Merciless Gladiator's Right Ripper Merciless Gladiator's Right Ripper - Items - World of Warcraft higher than Gladiator's Slicer Gladiator's Slicer - Thottbot: World of Warcraft

Now here is the confusion I am hoping one of you more knowledgeable people can clear up for me. I am currently spec'ed for combat swords. Cookie cutter combat build. This is for raiding 100%. I switch to a Sub., build for my pvp'ing fun. If I am spec'ed with the talent of sword specialization because I am dual wielding two swords, and then switch to a higher ranked fist weapon in my main hand, what would I have to do to my talent spec.?

Would I the things in my Assassination tree so I could spec both in sword specialization and fist specialization?

Honestly I am thinking that I am just reading the spreadsheet wrong. My thought is if you are combat swords, you should have two swords. If you are combat fists, then you should have two fist weapons.

The second question that comes to mind based off of that spreadsheet, is would I be better off going Combat Fists using the Vanir's Right Fist of Brutality and Vanir's Left Fist of Savagery for raiding? My own answer/thought here is No. Combat swords is the best overall DPS dealer. Perhaps this is wrong or has changed?
#2799SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Dorvan
The build you want to consider (consult your local spreadsheet to figure out what comes out ahead with your gear) is a combat fist/sword build, which is mentioned and listed in the very first post of this thread, dropping a few points out of poison talents to grab 2 weapon specializations.
#2800SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Aldriana
Combat Hybrid Fist/Sword builds drop the poison talents from assassination and some nondamage filler in combat to get both sword and fist spec, and then use Fist MH Sword OH. This build is generally considered to be roughly comparable to straight Combat Swords assuming comparable weapon quality - that is, if you compare the damage done by this build with an Arena 3 MH Sword and an Arena 3 MH Fist, they will be pretty close - the damage gain by combining sword and fist spec is offset by the loss of poison talents, leaving them pretty close with swords usually a bit ahead.

The reason why this is interesting is that not everyone has equal access to swords and fists. If you get unlucky with drops on one or the other and aren't a serious PvPer, it's sort of a question of what you have access to. For instance, if you're not willing/able to get 1850 Arena Rating right now and don't have a MH Warglaive, Vanir's proves to be better than any MH Sword available to you. Thus, Hybrid Fist/Sword is a very sensible option for people who's best weapon option is a fist.

That said: if you're talking PvP weapons, and get a choice between swords and fists, I am of the opinion that it's generally better to pick swords, because a) I believe it's damage, while extremely comparable, is ever-so-slightly superior in practice, and b) It gives you the additional flexibility to pick up other talents that might be necessary, with Improved Expose Armor being the notable entry in that list.

For exact details of how the weapons compare in your exact situation, I would suggest checking out the spreadsheet.
#2801SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Latito
Also note that Shadowpanther has the two weapons ranked/rated exactly the same. One of them had to come first when listing the rows, it looks to be alphabetical. This should be expected, considering they have exactly the same stats, the only difference is weapon damage range, however the dps and speed are identical - the smaller damage range on the sword means nothing. This is all completely disregarding the fact that using a completely static rating system for various stats isn't the best way of ranking which item is better for *you*, only a spreadsheet or something with your other ~16 pieces of gear can tell you that.
#2802SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Salhik
I have a new convert to combat swords, so I wanted to just get a little advice.
I had been combat daggers and most recently combat mutilate for a very long time, and thus am I'm rather unsure that I am playing swords as it is intended. I've checked over this forum a number of times, but wanted to see if anyone had some advice, either as of my gear selections, or my gemming and enchants.

My rotation is 3-5 Snd / 5-5 R and 3-5 SnD / 5-5 R / 3+ Evis when AD is on. I understand that hit is primary for this spec and feel I may be lacking a bit there as well. Right now I'm raiding SSC TK and just getting to start Hyjal, though I haven't been lucky enough to get anything from these places yet.

Feel free to rip me to shreds, I can take it.

Thank you in advance for the advice.
The World of Warcraft Armory
#2803SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Feanora
Originally Posted by Salhik View Post
I have a new convert to combat swords, so I wanted to just get a little advice.
I had been combat daggers and most recently combat mutilate for a very long time, and thus am I'm rather unsure that I am playing swords as it is intended. I've checked over this forum a number of times, but wanted to see if anyone had some advice, either as of my gear selections, or my gemming and enchants.

My rotation is 3-5 Snd / 5-5 R and 3-5 SnD / 5-5 R / 3+ Evis when AD is on. I understand that hit is primary for this spec and feel I may be lacking a bit there as well. Right now I'm raiding SSC TK and just getting to start Hyjal, though I haven't been lucky enough to get anything from these places yet.

Feel free to rip me to shreds, I can take it.

Thank you in advance for the advice.
The World of Warcraft Armory
What do you mean when you say "3-5 Snd / 5-5 R"? In any case, you have 2 piece t4, so the proper rotation for you would be 1s5r. No ifs, ands, or buts. Just get one combo point, hit SnD, then get 5 combo points and hit rupture. Rinse and repeat as necessary.
#2826SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Danther
Originally Posted by Towelette View Post
My guild is starting attempts on Vashj (yeah, I know), and there's some disagreement over what the melee should be killing during Phase 2. Some members feel that Rogues should be on the backs of the Coilfang Elites, while others (like myself) think that Rogues should be on the Elementals. What are all of your experiences with Vashj Phase 2 for Rogues and which adds have you had the most success with?
We had much more success with melee on the Elites. If we had extra melee (which we usually did), then we'd put warriors on the elementals. They can get around a lot better than we can.

Just make sure you hold off on DPSing the Elites for a second or two until they are fully in position. They tend to ping-pong their facing just a little bit as they're being moved, and that can put you in cleave range if you're not careful. With solid melee on them, four people can keep up with them no problem. Pick off any stray elementals that get by, but make sure you all don't run for the same one. Task one or two people to be on elemental pickup. Everyone else stay on the Elites full time. Also remember to remind your elemental DPS folks that it's better to let one elemental through with 100% health than to let three slip by with 33% health. The latter requires that melee folks are running every which way to pick them off, when it's easier to focus on one and burn it down in one second.

On Phase 3, I fell into the camp of "don't save your abilities for anything" with regards to root and goo. That is, I didn't wait until I was rooted+goo'd+charged to blow my Cloak/Sprint/Vanish. The second I was rooted, I got out of it immediately and continued DPSing. She has to die fast, and I'd rather take the 100% chance to continue damaging her than hold off and see how the dice roll later.
#2827SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Snus
Guardian's Leather Bracers

Season 4 items are up on the PTR now. I've been scouring the internet and can't find the stats for (what I assume to be called) Guardian's Leather/Dragonhide Bracers. As a rogue stuck in t5 content, I was wondering if anyone has been onto the PTR to see the stats for it? I'd like to plug it into the Gear Spreadsheet to see what kind of upgrade I can look forward to.

The new Season 4 helm looks promising for rogues stuck in my situation as well, although the look makes me (and my rogue look as if he wants to) cry.
#2828SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1drumbum
Since your best weapons are fist/sword, you really don't have the option of speccing Hemo. A 11/28/22 build does not give the flexibility of picking up more than one weapon specialization talent. If you have the offhand badge fist also you could possibly get away with Hemo fists, but I don't know how much of a damage hit it is. As always, consult the spreadsheets.
#2829SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1drumbum
Originally Posted by Snus View Post
Season 4 items are up on the PTR now. I've been scouring the internet and can't find the stats for (what I assume to be called) Guardian's Leather/Dragonhide Bracers. As a rogue stuck in t5 content, I was wondering if anyone has been onto the PTR to see the stats for it? I'd like to plug it into the Gear Spreadsheet to see what kind of upgrade I can look forward to.

The new Season 4 helm looks promising for rogues stuck in my situation as well, although the look makes me (and my rogue look as if he wants to) cry.
The honor non-set epics are viewable in this image: http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...4a_leather.jpg

(And everything else is also viewable from their front page: MMO-Champion)
#2830SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Neftali
Originally Posted by Towelette View Post
This seemed like as good a thread as any to ask my question.

My guild is starting attempts on Vashj (yeah, I know), and there's some disagreement over what the melee should be killing during Phase 2. Some members feel that Rogues should be on the backs of the Coilfang Elites, while others (like myself) think that Rogues should be on the Elementals. What are all of your experiences with Vashj Phase 2 for Rogues and which adds have you had the most success with?
Echoing some others - we also ran with melee on the Elites. I found it difficult to keep up with the elementals when we put melee on them instead of the Elites, because all of that target switching is not exactly conducive to maximizing a rogue's abilities. We put our DPS warrior on core duty - he picked up the cores when the Tainted Elemental was killed, tossed them up to a ranged DPS class on the top of the stairs, then went to a generator to dunk the core.

We rarely ended up with more than 2 Elites up at a time at any point during the fight with our melee on them, which also gave us some time to clean up leaks if they happened to get through (because Elites weren't overrunning the raid, we could stop DPS on them for a moment to clean up leaks).
#2831SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Left
Originally Posted by Towelette View Post
4) The spreadsheet showed me having a small DPS gain by going TSH (including debuff) over Fist + Sword. My thinking was that in addition to the DPS gain over Combat, even on an endless uninterrupted fight, TSH may be hurt less by the target switching and downtime than Combat, and might gain more from lower armor values when burning Phase 1 + 3.
You shouldn't be including the debuff when analyzing killing the elementals. If assigned to elemental duty, you are likely to be the only one using Hemo charges. Thus, you won't get full benefit out of your Hemos, especially since you are also unlikely to get a Windfury totem at that range to help you eat them up.

Combat potency is helpful anytime that you are DPSing a target for longer than it takes to empty your energy bar from full. It may be most helpful long-term on a target, but if you are staying on the elementals for longer than ~10 seconds you are likely to get a good amount of benefit from combat potency, especially if you keep up SnD.

All that said, my guild as well used melee on Coilfang Elites. It made much more sense. We were able to clean up stray elementals and also stay on a long-term DPS target nearly the whole time. With 3-4 melee in the mix (and occasionally help from our warlocks) we were able (after much practice) to consistently get the Elites down within the 45 second window.
#2832SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Ricard
Originally Posted by Towelette View Post
This seemed like as good a thread as any to ask my question.

My guild is starting attempts on Vashj (yeah, I know), and there's some disagreement over what the melee should be killing during Phase 2. Some members feel that Rogues should be on the backs of the Coilfang Elites, while others (like myself) think that Rogues should be on the Elementals. What are all of your experiences with Vashj Phase 2 for Rogues and which adds have you had the most success with?

The main question I have is this: Given the nature of the fight, I've been considering going TSH for Vashj nights. The fight doesn't seem to favor melee in general or Combat Rogues in particular. I was thinking that the added cooldown availability, constant target switching, and relatively low armor of Vashj may favor a more mobile spec with better armor penetration and Rupture damage. Have any of you tried Vashj as both Combat and TSH? Or have any comments on one or the other?

I'm open to all suggestions, and any tips would be greatly appreciated. Thanks everyone.

Note: I'm normally Combat Fist + Sword. The spec I have now is just an idea I was toying around with in my head, mostly with the intention of getting 3 Sprints and some other talents I thought may be situationally useful on Vashj. The gear I logged in is my PvE raiding gear, though. I may have the Honor AP trinket equipped, but I run with WSC and SoC in raids.
I went TSH for the same reasons you're thinking of doing it, and ran into a different problem; my hemo charges weren't getting used up in phase two all the time due to the fact that the raid was so split up fighting different things.
#2833SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Latito
Originally Posted by Towelette View Post
1) Less DPS in-time
That is exactly the problem with nearly all melee classes on the elementals. Have a class which can either stand at the top of the stairs and nuke or charge around from target to target do the elemental stuff. Melee dps, Rogues in particular, are best on the Elites. Remember that we are a class which scales with buffs more than basically any other class. Elementals means no WF, no Battle Shout, no UR, etc. As TSH, you won't even be making use of half of the debuff charges and lose some cooldowns which come in handy when a Tainted spawns and you're 30+ yards away from it.
#2834SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Eyegore
Putting mele on the naga is of course ideal in terms on getting the most dps out of them, on elementals the amount of time spent running around kills your efficiency while a ranged class could stand in the center of their zone and non stop nuke (more or less). Elemental duty can be done by a rogue however, should you not happen to have the perfect people for every job. I have done it on my rogue alt when we went and did an alt/friends/pugish ssc off night run a while ago, and I would say that combat is the way to go for it. Perfecting dps on the elementals is really not the issue, doing enough damage to keep up while absolutely positively never letting a tainted get by is. If you get caught up at the top of the steps on the far side of your zone when a tainted spawns the on demand burst of AR-BF may make the difference between getting that core (once you sprint over if its up, if not you will have even less time once you get there) and getting to phase 3, or wiping.

edit* beaten by 20 minutes it looks like ^ man I type slow :-/
#2835SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1dinesh
This feels like a discussion better handled in the Vashj thread in Public Discussion, but since we're here...

Rogues are obviously better suited to Elite duty, but if you have too much melee in your raid balance, you may end up on elemental duty. I almost always did. I was either assigned a 2-panel side, or paired with a ranged person where I was only accountable for 2 out of 3 panels. Save sprint and AR for tainted elementals (this is the one time i would have to hit the 3rd panel on my side, potentially). Help out up top when needed, or when nothing is happening in your two panels, but don't get too carried away, since it's easy to fall behind on your own stuff if you're busy doing other people's jobs.

Don't even think about comparing your dps to anyone on naga duty - it won't even be close.
#2836SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Towelette
Originally Posted by drumbum View Post
Since your best weapons are fist/sword, you really don't have the option of speccing Hemo. A 11/28/22 build does not give the flexibility of picking up more than one weapon specialization talent. If you have the offhand badge fist also you could possibly get away with Hemo fists, but I don't know how much of a damage hit it is. As always, consult the spreadsheets.
I did. 11/22(21)/28(29) came up as better DPS when including the debuff bonus. My thinking was that if it came out better in even an uninterrupted, endless fight, that it would do equally as well or better in an interrupted one.

Originally Posted by Danther View Post
Just make sure you hold off on DPSing the Elites for a second or two until they are fully in position. They tend to ping-pong their facing just a little bit as they're being moved, and that can put you in cleave range if you're not careful. With solid melee on them, four people can keep up with them no problem. Pick off any stray elementals that get by, but make sure you all don't run for the same one. Task one or two people to be on elemental pickup. Everyone else stay on the Elites full time. Also remember to remind your elemental DPS folks that it's better to let one elemental through with 100% health than to let three slip by with 33% health. The latter requires that melee folks are running every which way to pick them off, when it's easier to focus on one and burn it down in one second.
This was my primary concern with melee on the Elites. I didn't want a bad spin, or a slightly off adjustment during the Forked Lightning, to get the melee group cleaved and be down several people for Phase 3.

Originally Posted by Left View Post
You shouldn't be including the debuff when analyzing killing the elementals. If assigned to elemental duty, you are likely to be the only one using Hemo charges. Thus, you won't get full benefit out of your Hemos, especially since you are also unlikely to get a Windfury totem at that range to help you eat them up.

Combat potency is helpful anytime that you are DPSing a target for longer than it takes to empty your energy bar from full. It may be most helpful long-term on a target, but if you are staying on the elementals for longer than ~10 seconds you are likely to get a good amount of benefit from combat potency, especially if you keep up SnD.

All that said, my guild as well used melee on Coilfang Elites. It made much more sense. We were able to clean up stray elementals and also stay on a long-term DPS target nearly the whole time. With 3-4 melee in the mix (and occasionally help from our warlocks) we were able (after much practice) to consistently get the Elites down within the 45 second window.
I think I was unclear about this, I wasn't considering it a benefit for the Elementals, but rather on Vashj herself and the Elites if that was the direction we took with our melee's assignments. Personally, I'm not sure at what length of in-time that Combat Potency becomes very powerful, but I have a hard time believing that point to be getting one proc while moving between Elementals. On the Elites though, I can definitely understand CP's value. I've been Combat for ages now, I just didn't know how badly the benefit was affected when a ton of movement was involved.

I can see that melee on Elites is definitely the way to go. Thank you for all of your help everyone, much appreciated
#2837SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Outtasight
I have a two part question. First I use a 1s/5r Cut Rotation and sometimes i find myself with 5 combo points with 4 or 5 seconds left on rupture. My question is what do i do since a lot of the time i cant rupture and my energy is just regenerating and being wasted?

The second question is when i pop AR, should i just use the same cycle as i do normally or what should i do spam SS and Rupture?

Thank You for the help.
#2838SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Kaiyn
Got a nice little theorycrafting question here.

I am in a little discussion with my raid leader about best group synergy effect. The reason for this is that he put me (the only rogue at that time in the raid) in group with a couple of paladin healers and the maintank and he put a BM hunter in group with the other melee. Which was a enhancement shaman, Retridin, Feral druid (cat form) and a MS warrior.

His point being was that I wouldnt bring anything into the melee group while the BM hunter does. Now that is absolutely true that a BM hunter does bring some dmg buff to the group while a rogue doesn't (Blizz please fix this).

My question is what would be the best way to go. I know that for my own dps it would be best if I am in the group and my dps will even be better then the hunters cause I benefit from more buff that the other melee give.

The only problem here is that my RL wants proof as to what does more dmg. Having the hunter in the melee group or me in the melee group and the hunter in a caster group.
#2839SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Mideci
Well, the fact is you, the retadin, and the warrior benefit insanely from Windfury, the BM hunter only benefits nicely from GoA, which would be a disaster for the retadin and the MS warrior if it was used. The hunter would not benefit from WF. You should be in the melee group, the hunter should not, this is a no brainer.

You will never bring anything to any group, the question is who will leech more successfully from the group and / or where can you go? If the raid has a boomkin or shadow priest, the hunter can go in with that group and get some synergy out of it. Otherwise, it's a bummer for the hunter but he'll be fine. For you, that Windfury totem is going to be mammoth as will the battle shout. If they want to put you outside the melee group, they should like to go without rogues entirely.
#2840SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Kaiyn
Originally Posted by Mideci View Post
Well, the fact is you, the retadin, and the warrior benefit insanely from Windfury, the BM hunter only benefits nicely from GoA, which would be a disaster for the retadin and the MS warrior if it was used. The hunter would not benefit from WF. You should be in the melee group, the hunter should not, this is a no brainer.
I know that. The shaman wasnt useing GoA in this case since there where more people who had benefit from the WF totem. Also he just chaged his UI and lost his keybinds for totemtwisting.

My point here is the fact that my RL came up with the arguement that I bring nothing to the melee group while the hunter does with his 3% dmg increase. (He's a BM hunter).

Hehe I told them that on our forums that not having me in the melee group was a waste of my raid slot. And I am top dps in our guild. On Bossencounters that is.
#2841SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Zenith
2s/5r instead of 1s/5r

To Outtasight's questions

Your best bet is to use a 2s/5r cycle, as the loss of rupture uptime is made up by the increased reliability and flexibility of this cycle. Using 1s/5r even with 350-360hit rating sometimes my SnD dropped for 1-2sec if i had a bad streak of procs. The other extreme is not better either, since sometimes i found myself with 5cp while the previous rupture was still ticking, unable to refresh it because of the "a more powerful spell ..." message, while SnD was running out. Not to mention that any fight that required kick/feint made 1s/5r unusable.
It's true that sometimes i have to cut 5-6 seconds of SnD, even if i pool energy up to 60-70, but I find that preferable to SnD dropping for several seconds.

About Adrenaline Rush, in my opinion the best time to use it right after you renew SnD, since most of the times you can get both a 5cp Rupture and a 5cp Evis before you have to renew SnD again. However i find it even better to time AR with AP/ArPen/Crit procs(Shard of Contempt, SSO neck, Mongoose, WSC) and improvise your cycle(while making sure SnD stays up).

Last edited by Zenith : Yesterday at 7:27 AM. Reason: Typo, English is not my native languag
#2842SourcePosted on <=2.0.0drumbum
Originally Posted by Kaiyn View Post
My point here is the fact that my RL came up with the arguement that I bring nothing to the melee group while the hunter does with his 3% dmg increase. (He's a BM hunter).
Sure, but Ferocious Inspiration is also a nice buff for any DPS group, because it affects both magic and physical damage. So the buff is not wasted just because he's not in the melee group. On the other hand, your own damage output is going to suffer a lot without Battle Shout or Windfury.

Yes, rogues don't provide any "tangible" benefit to the rest of the raid in the general sense. However, that doesn't mean you should ignore them. Really the benefit that the rogue brings to the table is the ability to scale ridiculously with all the buffs from other raid members, while having an innate lower threat generation. That's the way Blizzard created the classes, and your raid leader just needs to get over it and put you in the melee group. That is, if he has maximizing your raid's DPS as a goal.
#2843SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Kaiyn
I did a little calculation with the DPS spreadsheet here and this is my conclusion:

Ok my own numbers without being in the melee group.

Melee White ------ DPS: 638,84 85%
Sinister Strike ---- DPS: 303,61 28%
Finisher ----------- DPS: 67,48 6%
Other ------------- DPS: 85,85 8%
Total DPS--------------- 1095,78 100%

This is with the following buffs: BoM, BoK, MotW, 20hit Food and Flask (120AP)

Now if I add the buffs I would get from a warrior, Retridin, Shaman and druid my DPS would be this.

Melee White -------- DPS: 1004,91 63%
Sinister Strike ------ DPS: 394,57 25%
Finisher ------------- DPS: 102,37 6%
Other ---------------- DPS: 98,13 6%
Total DPS ----------------- 1599,98 100%

(this calculation was done with the latest version of the rogue dps spreadsheet. With my current gear and talent build).
That would be an increase of more then 400 dps. This are the numbers for actuall DPS. The numbers for Base DPS are a bit higher.

Note that Ferocious Inspiration (BM hunter buff) will give me a dps increase of ~15. I don't exactly know how much it is with other classes but I doubt it is alot more then that.
#2844SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Tarquin
Kaiyn, I think your raid leader is suffering from adult-onset Down Syndrome. Someone who cannot grasp concepts that obvious may be a lost cause, but if you want to take a shot at convincing him, just send him two copies of the spreadsheet you just filled out - one with group buffs, one without. Then show him how much benefit FI gives. If you're not in the melee group next week, find a new raid.
#2845SourcePosted on <=2.0.0 Merple
Originally Posted by drumbum View Post
Yes, rogues don't provide any "tangible" benefit to the rest of the raid in the general sense.
This is because rogues are the class you build your groups around buffing. They are the premier melee dps class. The other classes are there, yes, to improve their own damage, but their main priority is to increase raid DPS, which in most cases, translates to "buff the rogues".

This is why classes like Ret paladins and kitty druids still have trouble getting into raids - it's often simply more beneficial to stack the melee group with good rogues.

Yes, a ret paladin is useless to the raid without WF, and if you put him in the melee group, he's going to put out some excellent DPS (assuming the player is good). But if you're bumping a rogue to put in that ret paladin, you're going to have to be able to properly accommodate the rogue in another DPS group (Hunter, Hunter, Feral Druid, Rogue, Resto Shaman ain't bad with poisons), and justify the move with math on overall raid DPS with the two possible variations.

If the Ret pally in the melee group/Rogue in hunter group offers higher raid DPS, as well as offering additional judgements and blessings, then yes, that's a good trade.

But if the raid DPS is lower, or you wind up with a rogue in a caster group, then you're being stupid, and the Ret Pally needs to sit or be put in the tank group (also non-optimal, but the rogue simply does more DPS).

Putting a hunter in the melee group, however, is just braindead. You're literally hurting both players' DPS by organizing the groups that way. The hunter doesn't benefit from UR or SoE either.
#2846SourcePosted on <=2.0.0McLarge
Originally Posted by Kaiyn View Post
I did a little calculation with the DPS spreadsheet here and this is my conclusion:

Ok my own numbers without being in the melee group.

Melee White ------ DPS: 638,84 85%
Sinister Strike ---- DPS: 303,61 28%
Finisher ----------- DPS: 67,48 6%
Other ------------- DPS: 85,85 8%
Total DPS--------------- 1095,78 100%

This is with the following buffs: BoM, BoK, MotW, 20hit Food and Flask (120AP)
Your non-buffed melee white percentage is a bit suspect... probably 58% is what you meant to type.

What others have said about party makeup is correct. Email your raid leader with the link to these forums so he can see for himself. Raid damage is more important than party damage. Rogues do damage. If the RL is going to bring a rogue then that damage should be maximized. The only time you won't end up in the "melee" group is when you've got a lot of rogues in the raid--and then you should be hanging out with the warrior and druid tanks probably.

edit: others got their posts up quicker... what they said
#2847SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Kaiyn
Originally Posted by McLarge View Post
Your non-buffed melee white percentage is a bit suspect... probably 58% is what you meant to type.
Oops typo. Yes it is 58% not 85%. I blame fast typing and no sleep.

Well anyway I have made a nice "little" post on our own forums now. With alot of explenation about melee group setup. I also added my dps graphs I gto from the spreadsheet. And to make it all total I added the dps the warrior, paladin, shaman and druid would get from Ferocious Inspiration (which is about 150 dps in total). I did make alot of friends with our other melee classes in the guild btw. The thanked me for the fact that finally someone pointed this out to the RL.

Now the only thing we can do is wait and see I guess.


Ohh btw. We killed Archimonde for the first time yesterday.
#2848SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Dorvan
Originally Posted by Merple View Post
But if the raid DPS is lower, or you wind up with a rogue in a caster group, then you're being stupid, and the Ret Pally needs to sit or be put in the tank group (also non-optimal, but the rogue simply does more DPS).
Although their absolute DPS is lower, Ret Pallies scale better with melee group buffs than Rogues do: WF affects a larger portion of Pally damage (and instant poison mitigates the loss of that damage better for rogues), Strength of Earth gives them more than double the AP benefit, Unleashed Rage gives Ret Pallies a bigger boost since they have more AP than rogues. If you've got enhance shammy, arms warrior, ret pally, rogue x3, raid DPS is almost always maximized by moving your lowest DPS rogue out of the melee group, not the Ret Pally.

Last edited by Dorvan : Yesterday at 12:12 PM.
#2849SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Lyco
I am a SS Rogue, and my guild is doing Leotharas/Al'ar as our next target boss' to down. I am at 313 HR unbuffed, and am wondering, do I need to max out my HR before focusing on another stat, or can I step back a little and start looking to my other stats? And when I do move my focus to a new stat, what should I work on? IE- armor reduction, agility, crit, etc.
#2850SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Zenith
Originally Posted by Lyco View Post
I am a SS Rogue, and my guild is doing Leotharas/Al'ar as our next target boss' to down. I am at 313 HR unbuffed, and am wondering, do I need to max out my HR before focusing on another stat, or can I step back a little and start looking to my other stats? And when I do move my focus to a new stat, what should I work on? IE- armor reduction, agility, crit, etc.
Just read the first post of this thread and you'll find the answers for your questions. But to sum it up, while powerful, hit rating is still a stat like any other. It might be better than say crit/agi/ap point for point, but every stat has it's value, you can't just stack hit to get to a certain threshold disregarding your other offensive attributes. Just use the spreadsheet linked countless times here to look for potential upgrades.
#2851SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Lyco
Originally Posted by Zenith View Post
Just read the first post of this thread and you'll find the answers for your questions. But to sum it up, while powerful, hit rating is still a stat like any other. It might be better than say crit/agi/ap point for point, but every stat has it's value, you can't just stack hit to get to a certain threshold disregarding your other offensive attributes. Just use the spreadsheet linked countless times here to look for potential upgrades.
I am sorry, I most have been unclear in my question. It is my understanding in reading this thread, that HR is generally the most important stat, as a whole. Should HR remain my main priority (ie - using +hit instead of +agi gem) or can I start to look at improving my other stats?
#2852SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Wickedchild
You must have misunderstood then.
Hit Rating isnt the most important stat, but the one that generaelly yields the best dps upgrade point for point, compared to other stats.
Having over 300 hit rating is all good and even great assuming your raid buffs dont throw you over the top of the cap, but it is in no way the most important thing to aim for when choosing gear/gem/enchant upgrades.
To better choose what to aim for with future items, follow the simple instructions in the first post, and use the Spreadsheet linked at the bottom of that very same post.
It just doesnt get simpler than that.
#2853SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Aldriana
So, there are actually two questions here:

1) Should I gem for hit or for agility, and
2) Is hit my main priority.

The answer to the first question is a matter or personal preference. At this point you're above the hit cap against level 71s and very close to it for 72s, so pumping further hit basically does nothing against trash and bosses with adds. However, it's still the most valuable stat against level 73s (bosses) so you'll get slightly more damage on them than you would by stacking a lesser stat.

The answer to the second question is no. Your main priority is selecting the gear that will give you the largest DPS increase. Hit is a valuable stat which will increase your DPS... but there are lots of other stats that do as well, and you should pick items based on which items have the best combination of stats that will yield the most DPS. At no point should you find yourself thinking "I need to wear this item because I need the hit". You should select all pieces of gear based on how much DPS they give, and wear the best ones. The exact hit value matters only so far as making sure you're not over the hit cap.
#2854SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Latito
Originally Posted by Dorvan View Post
Although their absolute DPS is lower, Ret Pallies scale better with melee group buffs than Rogues do: WF affects a larger portion of Pally damage (and instant poison mitigates the loss of that damage better for rogues), Strength of Earth gives them more than double the AP benefit, Unleashed Rage gives Ret Pallies a bigger boost since they have more AP than rogues. If you've got enhance shammy, arms warrior, ret pally, rogue x3, raid DPS is almost always maximized by moving your lowest DPS rogue out of the melee group, not the Ret Pally.
Although your conclusion is generally accurate (keep the ret pally in the melee group).. I disagree that Ret Pallies benefit more from UR. While you may have *slightly* more AP (3-500 or so, greatly depending on gear and buffs).. you are not Dual Wield. You're AP applies to a single weapon, ours applies to both weapons. Also, consider that Crusader Strike is on a 6 second CD while Sinister Strike can be preformed roughly every 3 to 3.5 seconds.

Either way, I wouldn't recommend bringing 3 rogues and a ret paladin to the same raid if you are trying to maximize raid dps. Ret Paladin + Rogues should pretty much always be 3. I believe Zurm was planning on a more lengthy writeup about this general topic for the Ret thread, this thread should remain on the Rogue topics and not raid composition.
#2855SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Dev93L
Originally Posted by Himmel View Post
I replaced my Sinister Strike with simple macro:

/Startattack
/Cast Sinister Strike

This helps on trash if you tab-target between multiple mobs, as if you press SS to attack next mob and out of energy white DPS will not start until first SS landed.

Also I made PVE DPS cycle controlled by one button wich helps to do it smooth and with good precision:
Mouse wheel up: Sinister Strike
Mouse wheel down: Slice and Dice
Scroller (wheel) click: Rupture

Hope this post helps with rogue control optimization.

Thanks! I've been looking for a solution that problem.
#2856SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Latito
I would suggest adding: "/run UIErrorsFrame:Clear()" to the end. It will clear the error spam you get from constantly having "cast" SS within the 1 second GCD and/or before you have enough energy. If you have a G9 mouse (or something similar with a wheel that doesn't click-scroll but rather free-scrolls).. you end up with a LOT of spam REALLY quickly.

/startattack
/cast Sinister Strike
/run UIErrorsFrame:Clear()
#2857SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1drumbum
Well, I'd say using the addon ErrorMonster (or one of the alternatives) is a superior choice. This addon basically lets you choose the exact error messages that you wish to always hide. If you keep spamming UIErrorsFrame:Clear() you may be clearing other error messages too that you DO want to see. Although, in the general case, it's pretty easy to tell what caused your attack to fail.
#2858SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Cronax
In my experience, /startattack in a macro with an ability you use DECREASES your dps because every time you push the button for the macro, it resets your swing timer. I may be wrong though.
#2859SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1drumbum
Originally Posted by Cronax View Post
In my experience, /startattack in a macro with an ability you use DECREASES your dps because every time you push the button for the macro, it resets your swing timer. I may be wrong though.
It doesn't reset your swing timer.
#2860SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Svinpälsarn
Hi there,

Right now Im using the Blade of Infamy and Vanir's Left Fist of Savagery, before i had the S2 sword in offhand. And now im thinking of getting the MH fist but Im not really sure if it's better to use Sword/fist, Fist/sword, Fist/Fist or Sword/Sword with the weapons I have. So I hope someone can help me out with this because i don't want to waste 105 badges on a fist weapon if it's not going to boost my DPs.

Thanks for all answers.
#2861SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Arindelest
Originally Posted by Svinpälsarn View Post
Hi there,

Right now Im using the Blade of Infamy and Vanir's Left Fist of Savagery, before i had the S2 sword in offhand. And now im thinking of getting the MH fist but Im not really sure if it's better to use Sword/fist, Fist/sword, Fist/Fist or Sword/Sword with the weapons I have. So I hope someone can help me out with this because i don't want to waste 105 badges on a fist weapon if it's not going to boost my DPs.

Thanks for all answers.
The Spreadsheet could help you.
#2862SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1drumbum
Originally Posted by Svinpälsarn View Post
Hi there,

Right now Im using the Blade of Infamy and Vanir's Left Fist of Savagery, before i had the S2 sword in offhand. And now im thinking of getting the MH fist but Im not really sure if it's better to use Sword/fist, Fist/sword, Fist/Fist or Sword/Sword with the weapons I have. So I hope someone can help me out with this because i don't want to waste 105 badges on a fist weapon if it's not going to boost my DPs.

Thanks for all answers.
Days and days of effort have been put into creating and maintaining two excellent rogue spreadsheets which are both available on these forums. These spreadsheets are designed specifically to address questions just like this. In addition, there is even discussion about weapon specs on the first post of this very thread.

If you've made some effort to use the spreadsheets to answer your question, then you might get some willing responses. But until you do so, you probably will find that the people here aren't willing to go to extra trouble to accommodate the lazy.
#2863SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Svinpälsarn
Originally Posted by drumbum View Post
Days and days of effort have been put into creating and maintaining two excellent rogue spreadsheets which are both available on these forums. These spreadsheets are designed specifically to address questions just like this. In addition, there is even discussion about weapon specs on the first post of this very thread.

If you've made some effort to use the spreadsheets to answer your question, then you might get some willing responses. But until you do so, you probably will find that the people here aren't willing to go to extra trouble to accommodate the lazy.
my bad, i will look in to that thread, thanks anyways.
#2864SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Zurm
Just a heads up for the rogues, I've made a raid spot comparison with Latito, comparing ret pallies and rogues in various group setups. I think a lot of you may find it interesting.

Ret vs Rogue Raid Spots

Criticism is welcome, feel free to look it over and post/PM either of us. There may be a feral analysis at some point in the future.
#2865SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Xaoc
I thought this was already a pretty well accepted idea at higher-tier content
#2866SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1epicfailguy
I've been using EJ almost from the moment I started leveling a rogue. In my guild, we are currently 3/5 Hyjal, and working on Kael this upcoming week. I consider myself well versed in a lot of rogue queries, but coming into t6 content I have a question regarding haste.

I read in a post a while back that haste and hit are similar. Haste increases the amount of hits in X amount of time, while hit increases X amount of hits landed. My question: Is haste weighted the same as hit? Say for example in my current gear I have just over 300 hit, 1900ap, about 24% crit. Using a spreadsheet I see that a glove upgrade with haste will be better than the one with hit. Is it then advisable to take the haste upgrade over losing the hit?

Please forgive me if I began rambling.
#2867SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Aldriana
Hit and haste do somewhat similar things in that they increase the number of white hits you get, but the similarities end there. Because they do so in different ways, their scaling properties are really pretty different; hence, this is why they are scored separately in the EP weights in the first post of this thread.

In terms of whether it's better to take hit over haste... depends on how much of each, and what else you're giving up. The spreadsheet is your friend here - it will recommend which is better on an item by item basis, eliminating the need for crude rules of the form "hit is usually better than haste" or vice versa.
#2868SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1epicfailguy
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
Hit and haste do somewhat similar things in that they increase the number of white hits you get, but the similarities end there. Because they do so in different ways, their scaling properties are really pretty different; hence, this is why they are scored separately in the EP weights in the first post of this thread.

In terms of whether it's better to take hit over haste... depends on how much of each, and what else you're giving up. The spreadsheet is your friend here - it will recommend which is better on an item by item basis, eliminating the need for crude rules of the form "hit is usually better than haste" or vice versa.
Thanks for the quick response. Looks like I'll be taking the haste gloves!
#2869SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Blankstar
Do Curse of Tongues and Mind-Numbing stack? Cause some say it does and some don't. And I don't want to gimp my DPS with MN instead of DP when the locks can keep up CoT...

Let's say P2 of RoS for example. With 2-3 locks, is MN a back-up when they fail to keep CoT up, or does it help?
#2870SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Giantlol
Originally Posted by Blankstar View Post
Do Curse of Tongues and Mind-Numbing stack? Cause some say it does and some don't. And I don't want to gimp my DPS with MN instead of DP when the locks can keep up CoT...

Let's say P2 of RoS for example. With 2-3 locks, is MN a back-up when they fail to keep CoT up, or does it help?
Fairly sure they don't stack, locks should just keep up CoT, if your locks are having trouble keeping up CoT then you MIGHT want to put up MN, but I remember our rogues complaining that they were getting high resist rates on their MN poisons when they were trying to put it up the night that we had no locks for P2
#2871SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Feist-Mok
Originally Posted by Blankstar View Post
Do Curse of Tongues and Mind-Numbing stack? Cause some say it does and some don't. And I don't want to gimp my DPS with MN instead of DP when the locks can keep up CoT...

Let's say P2 of RoS for example. With 2-3 locks, is MN a back-up when they fail to keep CoT up, or does it help?

CoT won't block mind numbing (or vice versa) in the way that Sunder and EA block each other, but the effects do not stack.

For situations where a cast MUST BE SLOWED, it can be handy to keep MN on.
#2872SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1tetracycloide
The DPS loss from using MN instead of DP is, at most, 75 DPS assuming a full stack of 5 up 100% of the time. The DPS loss from using CoT instead of CoD is at least 70 assuming 0 +damage.

The raid is much better off with MN unless something prevents it from being applied or maintained.
#2873SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Latito
Originally Posted by tetracycloide View Post
The raid is much better off with MN unless something prevents it from being applied or maintained.
This is often the case. While I agree that MN is a less of a rDPS loss, often times (RoS p2, Council Priest) it won't always stay stacked up there. Rogues can, and probably should in those cases, shiv to keep it on. However once we start talking about shiv.. that dps loss to the rogue starts to increase. Its a bit more sketchy to keep up, and generally the raid pretty much requires it staying up. If you can take the relatively small (from a raid standpoint) dps hit, having a lock put up CoT once every 30 seconds is the safer option in nearly all cases. But yes, if your raid requires every last ounce of dps, MN would be better dps than CoT.
#2874SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Feanora
As far as haste goes, some dirty math as to why hit is slightly better, point for point. Keep in mind haste and hit require the same amount of rating to increase the respective stat by 1%:

Assume you're taking 100 swings in 100 seconds, or a 1.0 attack speed, and you have 90% to hit at a base. Now, if you add 1% hit, you'll hit 91 times in that 100 seconds. If you add 1% haste, you'll swing 101 times in that 100 seconds, but still only hit 90% of them, which works out to 90.9 hits in the given time period. As you would expect from an ugly example like this, the values of haste and hit are very close by EP, with hit slightly ahead. The value of haste approaches that of hit as you approach the hitcap, and would surpass it if you ever managed to get 100% hit for whatever reason.

Last edited by Feanora : 05/05/08 at 12:24 PM.
#2875SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Nock
I've been looking over a lot of Brutallus DPS reports lately, seeing what factors would cause different DPS over one another outside of the obvious gear, buff and group setup. More specifically, I've been looking at the RNG based procs.

I'm sure we've all had anomalies in our expected DPS reports, only to find a higher crit rate, or freakish amount of WF procs, Sword Spec procs or Combat Potency Procs that allowed us to do a higher amount of damage than would be expected of us.

Now since I’m not very good at math the way that a lot of you on these boards are, this is more of a request to one of you statisticians who are bored on a Monday to possibly create a rough baseline of the number of procs we should be seeing on a static timed fight so we can look at WWS reports with more of an over/under average mindset in regards to those procs.

The three procs that I believe can swing DPS numbers the most are Windfury, Sword Spec, and Combat Potency. These are also independent of the number of crits or the cycle that we choose to perform. Weapon attack speeds and the length of the fight would obviously be a factor. I don’t have a situation to solve weapon speeds, but since we all tend to agree that Brutallus is the new benchmark, 6 minutes would make sense for the length of the fight.

I know this is possible since we have two spreadsheets that work with proc uptimes in a more complex manner than an estimated average. Maybe if someone could help me with a formula where I could plug in the different variables in Excel?

If no one is up to the work, I understand. I’m just curious how far over/under people are when you can see a range of low 20’s to mid 50’s on WF/SS procs and what amount we should be seeing, on average.
#2876SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1tetracycloide
Originally Posted by Latito View Post
If you can take the relatively small (from a raid standpoint) dps hit
Actually I used CoD from a naked lock as an extream example to illustrate the point. In reality the RDPS lost is several orders of magnitude higher because a raid that has enough locks for anyone to actually use CoD instead of elements, shadow, and recklessness is rare and the utility curses provide hundreds of RDPS, not tens of RDPS.
#2877SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1koaschten
I'd rather say if you are not running 4 locks you are better off with mindnumbing because you either loose Shadows, Elements or Recklessness, which is a far bigger impact on raid dps.
#2878SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Aldriana
Originally Posted by Nock View Post
I've been looking over a lot of Brutallus DPS reports lately, seeing what factors would cause different DPS over one another outside of the obvious gear, buff and group setup. More specifically, I've been looking at the RNG based procs.

I'm sure we've all had anomalies in our expected DPS reports, only to find a higher crit rate, or freakish amount of WF procs, Sword Spec procs or Combat Potency Procs that allowed us to do a higher amount of damage than would be expected of us.

Now since I’m not very good at math the way that a lot of you on these boards are, this is more of a request to one of you statisticians who are bored on a Monday to possibly create a rough baseline of the number of procs we should be seeing on a static timed fight so we can look at WWS reports with more of an over/under average mindset in regards to those procs.

The three procs that I believe can swing DPS numbers the most are Windfury, Sword Spec, and Combat Potency. These are also independent of the number of crits or the cycle that we choose to perform. Weapon attack speeds and the length of the fight would obviously be a factor. I don’t have a situation to solve weapon speeds, but since we all tend to agree that Brutallus is the new benchmark, 6 minutes would make sense for the length of the fight.

I know this is possible since we have two spreadsheets that work with proc uptimes in a more complex manner than an estimated average. Maybe if someone could help me with a formula where I could plug in the different variables in Excel?

If no one is up to the work, I understand. I’m just curious how far over/under people are when you can see a range of low 20’s to mid 50’s on WF/SS procs and what amount we should be seeing, on average.
So, the challenge with this is that it depends heavily on your gear, spec, and buffs, such that coming up with a general number is actually quite challenging.

In terms of a ballpark figure - I'm going to use my own gear as an example, which I imagine isn't too atypical of rogues on Brutallus. Some of you lucky bastards of course have Warglaives which will reduce the number of procs observed (due to the slowness of the weapon) but I imagine we'll still be in the same neck of the woods.

So, lets see. I have 256 hit rating and 22 expertise, 17 passive haste rating, and 2/5 T6 set bonus. This means each white attack expects to hit a little over 92% of the time.

Buffwise, the melee group in my guild tends to have 3 drums in it, so we need to add 60 average-case haste rating for that; Haste Potions used every cool is another 50; and the average uptime of my DST gives another 80 or so haste rating on top of that; thus, my total effective haste rating is about 207, which works out to about 13% haste. We then factor is 35% haste from SnD, Mongoose Procs, Blade Flurry, and, oh, say, 2 heroisms. Crunching the numbers a bit gives us an estimated 435 OH attacks over the course of the fight. From there, it's a simple matter to estimate the number of those attacks that proc combat potency - on average, there should be about 401 OH hits and thus about 80 combat potency procs. But what's the reasonable variance here?

Well, to do this right, we'd have to propagate uncertainty through every step of the above calculation - which is a serious pain. But, I'm going to guess that the bulk of the variance is in that last step, and come up with a range on that; doing so, we find that 95% (or so) of the time, I'd expect to see between 64 and 96 Combat Potency procs.

So, that's the easy calculation. Next the hard ones. Doing the same calculation as we did above for the OH, we find that we expect to get about 235 MH autoattacks, which will generate about 43 WF procs (but that's not the final answer for WF; keep reading). Additionally, with the 3600 base energy regen for a 6 minute fight, plus the 1200 (or so) more we got from Combat Potency, we have about 4800 energy to spend, which works out to about 120 SS - exact number depends on which cycle one is running. So we have a grand total of 120 yellow attacks and 723 white attacks so far, which, between them, will generate around 39 sword spec procs - which, in turn, will generate about another 7 WF procs.

Thus, all in all, we expect to have "about" 80 combat potency procs, 50 WF procs, and 40 Sword Spec procs over the course of the fight. But all these numbers are highly interrelated and, as such, have quite a bit of variance associated with them. Also note that the answer is fairly heavily subject to gear and buffs. But in terms of a ballpark figure, this probably isn't too far off.
#2879SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1madman
According to the rumors about S4, it seems that the arena offhands do not have any rating requirement.

Season 4 on PTRs

http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...quickblade.jpg
http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...l/s4w_shiv.jpg

If that is correct, there is a huge upgrade for most combat rogues to be had for a mere 1125 arena points.
#2880SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Aldriana
I'm not sure how "Huge" it really is, honestly. I mean, don't get me wrong, it's certainly a nice weapon, but when you look at the big picture: the DPS stats on the OHs haven't really changed much since season 2. Mostly what you're getting by upgrading your OH is a higher damage OH with slightly better stats and the same speed. And as it turns out, damage on your OH weapon is one of the least important stats there is. So, it's a decent upgrade - say, 25 EP over season 3 and about 60 relative to Season 2 or Talonblade - and if it turns out to be obtainable for only 1125 honor, I imagine a fair number of people will go for it. But on the grand scale of upgrades, it's not quite into the territory I'd call "huge". Nice, certainly. Depending on what you're using, "large", even. But it's not an earthshaking upgrade on the level of DST, Warglaives, or 3/4 of the stuff in Sunwell.
#2881SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1saedo
Originally Posted by madman View Post
According to the rumors about S4, it seems that the arena offhands do not have any rating requirement.

Season 4 on PTRs

http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...quickblade.jpg
http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...l/s4w_shiv.jpg

If that is correct, there is a huge upgrade for most combat rogues to be had for a mere 1125 arena points.

[Blade of Savagery] still trumps it. And if the rumors are based on that pic, then the Slicer doesn't need rating requirements either.

http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...s4w_slicer.jpg

Don't think any of the pics have rating requirements on them. It'll probably be like S3 was, Weapon Rating applies to all weapons, main/off/2H, which was said to be 2050.
#2882SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
madman
It is not based on the pics, it is based on the text on that page:

The new Season 4 items will have the below personal and team arena rating requirements:
Shoulders: 2200
Weapon: 2050
Head: 1700
Chest: 1600
Legs: 1550
Gloves: none
Off-hand: none
The Blade of Savagery might be better, I haven't checked the spreadsheets.. but after all it is a drop that you never know when you will get, and not every guild is in BT yet. So I imagine a lot of rogues will get a much awaited OH upgrade if this information is correct. I sure will.

Aldriana: Sure, it may not be enormous.. but it will only take a few weeks of arena, even if you lose, so I imagine most combat rogues who have not been in BT would be wise to get it before any other arena gear. And raiding rogues in that situation who don't do arena, should do it to get this.

Just trying to spread the word.. though ofc I'm not 100% sure this info is correct yet.

Last edited by madman : 05/05/08 at 3:02 PM.
#2883SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1tetracycloide
Originally Posted by madman View Post
It is not based on the pics, it is based on the text on that page
Considering it is blizzard's language we are talking about it is less than clear but 'Off-Hand' items are classed completely differently than weapons that can only be used in the off-hand. Given the current and previous structures of the arena gear system, the auction house, and item naming conventions pulled from data mining it is most likely that weapons that can only be used in the off-hand will fall under the 'weapons' designation of personal rating requirements and not the 'off-hand' designation.
#2884SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
madman
Good point. That could be... I hope not though. It would be nice to finally be able to upgrade my S2 OH dagger... because there are no alternatives atm. That 1.50 speed badge dagger is not an uprade

Last edited by madman : 05/05/08 at 4:13 PM.
#2885SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Latito
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
So, the challenge with this is that it depends heavily on your gear, spec, and buffs, such that coming up with a general number is actually quite challenging.

In terms of a ballpark figure - I'm going to use my own gear as an example, which I imagine isn't too atypical of rogues on Brutallus. Some of you lucky bastards of course have Warglaives which will reduce the number of procs observed (due to the slowness of the weapon) but I imagine we'll still be in the same neck of the woods.

So, lets see. I have 256 hit rating and 22 expertise, 17 passive haste rating, and 2/5 T6 set bonus. This means each white attack expects to hit a little over 92% of the time.

Buffwise, the melee group in my guild tends to have 3 drums in it, so we need to add 60 average-case haste rating for that; Haste Potions used every cool is another 50; and the average uptime of my DST gives another 80 or so haste rating on top of that; thus, my total effective haste rating is about 207, which works out to about 13% haste. We then factor is 35% haste from SnD, Mongoose Procs, Blade Flurry, and, oh, say, 2 heroisms. Crunching the numbers a bit gives us an estimated 435 OH attacks over the course of the fight. From there, it's a simple matter to estimate the number of those attacks that proc combat potency - on average, there should be about 401 OH hits and thus about 80 combat potency procs. But what's the reasonable variance here?

Well, to do this right, we'd have to propagate uncertainty through every step of the above calculation - which is a serious pain. But, I'm going to guess that the bulk of the variance is in that last step, and come up with a range on that; doing so, we find that 95% (or so) of the time, I'd expect to see between 64 and 96 Combat Potency procs.

So, that's the easy calculation. Next the hard ones. Doing the same calculation as we did above for the OH, we find that we expect to get about 235 MH autoattacks, which will generate about 43 WF procs (but that's not the final answer for WF; keep reading). Additionally, with the 3600 base energy regen for a 6 minute fight, plus the 1200 (or so) more we got from Combat Potency, we have about 4800 energy to spend, which works out to about 120 SS - exact number depends on which cycle one is running. So we have a grand total of 120 yellow attacks and 723 white attacks so far, which, between them, will generate around 39 sword spec procs - which, in turn, will generate about another 7 WF procs.

Thus, all in all, we expect to have "about" 80 combat potency procs, 50 WF procs, and 40 Sword Spec procs over the course of the fight. But all these numbers are highly interrelated and, as such, have quite a bit of variance associated with them. Also note that the answer is fairly heavily subject to gear and buffs. But in terms of a ballpark figure, this probably isn't too far off.
I would note this to be exceptionally accurate when comparing it to my findings in studying some Brutallus parses. You can also calculate the *exact* expected number of SS/WF/Cpots procs you should have expected, given your own actual results. I put together a screenshot of WWS from a kill a couple weeks ago:



So, in the bottom image, add up Nrm, Crit, Glanc and All Mss in the Nb row. You should get 241 + 263 + 175 27 = 706 attacks. WWS's "landed" column is just hits + glances, not crits. Adjust for WF and SS attacks, so 706 - 45 - 36 = 625 auto attacks. Now, 3.8% of those missed, so multiply 625 * (1 - 0.038) = 601 landed auto attacks. This assumes 3 of your SS/WF attacks missed (also roughly 3.8% of 45 + 36..). Now we need to split those into MH and OH attacks. I am assuming you have an identical landed rate for each hand - not entirely accurate but you cannot tell by WWS which hand is attacking when its a miss.. so we'll just have to go with this.

I have a 2.6spd MH and 1.4spd OH. Therefore, my MH will account for 1.4 / (2.6 + 1.4) % of the attacks, the OH for 2.6 / ( 2.6 + 1.4) % of the attacks. This works out to 35 and 65%. Since haste effects both weapons equally this is a reasonably valid assumption. 35% of 601 landed attacks is 210 landed MH attacks. 65% of 601 is 391 landed OH attacks. 391 * 0.2 = 78 expected Combat Potency procs. Considering I had an actual of 77.. not bad.

Back to the 210 landed MH attacks. Add in the 36 sword spec attacks and you have 246 swings which could potentially proc a WF attack. However, since 3.8% of those SS attacks actually missed, its more like 245. 245 * 0.2 = 49 expected WF attacks. I was a bit low at 45 - perhaps my Shaman missed some twists, or I just got a hair unlucky.

610 landed auto attacks + 45 WF attacks (subtract 2 from the WF since 3.8% them misses). Add in the 72 SS hits and 41 SS crits to get a total of 610 + 43 + 72 + 41 = 766 attacks which can potentially proc sword spec. Technically rupture can as well, so thats maybe another half a proc. 766 * 0.05 = 38.3 expected Sword spec procs. Looks like I scored a bit low on all 3 areas (and hey look.. my crit was only ~36.5.. it should be around 40), ended up at 2400 dps w/o a MH glaive.

Its not exactly scientific, but it might give you a closer idea as to how lucky you got with procs.
#2886SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Nock
Thanks Aldriana, that's exactly what I was looking for. I thought you might take a different approach with it in regards to the haste procs which would make it harder, but I was able to follow all of that pretty well and should be able to work out some numbers for different speeds of weapons.

On a related note, I thought that they changed sword spec to only proc off of white attacks some time ago, did that not ever happen? I apologize if I missed some information stating otherwise.
#2887SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Aldriana
Windfury was changed to be white attacks only a couple patches back; as far as I know Sword Spec still procs off everything.
#2888SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1ripcurl82
Mother Sharaz

Can anyone post what gear a rogue needs to tank Mother Sharaz? I hear alot of dodge and agility any specifics?
#2889SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1saedo
Originally Posted by ripcurl82 View Post
Can anyone post what gear a rogue needs to tank Mother Sharaz? I hear alot of dodge and agility any specifics?
I'd assume 102.4% passive avoidance (sum total of dodge, parry, and boss miss rate).
#2890SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Vulajin
Originally Posted by ripcurl82 View Post
Can anyone post what gear a rogue needs to tank Mother Sharaz? I hear alot of dodge and agility any specifics?
Although rogue tanking is a fun and interesting gimmick, this is not the thread to discuss it. You should check out this thread, where there has been discussion of that topic: [Tanking] Attempting to Reach 100% Avoidence
#2891SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1hordminion
imp faerie fire.

Does the talent Imp faerie fire work on bosses? if it does can you please include it into the hit cap section. Thank you!
#2892SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Vulajin
It does and it has been incorporated into the forthcoming article for the Theorycrafting Think Tank.
#2893SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1hordminion
thanks vul. another question. what would hit cap be then? i dont really feel like doing the math :P
#2894SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1drumbum
Originally Posted by madman View Post
According to the rumors about S4, it seems that the arena offhands do not have any rating requirement.
The S4 weapons definitely *DO* have an arena rating requirement of 2050. This is 100% certain. When the blue poster said that "off-hands" do not have an arena requirement, s/he is specifically referring only to caster off-hands.
#2895SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Tryss
Originally Posted by hordminion View Post
thanks vul. another question. what would hit cap be then? i dont really feel like doing the math :P
28% - 5% from Precision, 3% from IFF, 20% from gear. 15.77 hit rating per 1%.

Do the math.
#2896SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Butaka
I'm a fairly regular reader here on the forums of EJ; however, this is my first time posting. Anywho, the question I have is this: according to Aldriana's spreadsheet, [Ring of Lethality] is a slight up grade (DPS-wise) to [Band of the Eternal Champion]. I was wondering if Aldriana's spreadsheet calculated in the proc rate on [Band of the Eternal Champion] though, or if it was just the base stats. I know I've read the majority of posts on this forum and never recall seeing anything regarding this topic. Thanks in advance for your help.
Butaka, 70 Troll Rogue, Khadgar
#2897SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Vulajin
Questions specific to the gear sheet would be better asked in that thread in the future, but the answer to your question is that yes, the proc is accounted for. In general the gear sheet accounts for most procs on most items, so when it makes a recommendation, that recommendation includes the proc. (edit - To state that more usefully, I'm pretty sure all procs on gear that a rogue would reasonably consider wearing for best raid DPS are accommodated.)
#2898SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1misada
can anyone confirm with 100% certainty that sword specialization's proc from offhand will affect your mainhand's hit? specifically if you use fist/mace mainhand and sword offhand, will the extra hit proc'd from your offhand give your mainhand the swing? was going through my combat log and my mh hits for about twice as much as my oh, yet the next 2 damage numbers in my log aren't always 2 of the higher value not counting ones that have modifiers such as (glancing) (critical)
#2899SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Vulajin
Originally Posted by misada View Post
can anyone confirm with 100% certainty that sword specialization's proc from offhand will affect your mainhand's hit? specifically if you use fist/mace mainhand and sword offhand, will the extra hit proc'd from your offhand give your mainhand the swing? was going through my combat log and my mh hits for about twice as much as my oh, yet the next 2 damage numbers in my log aren't always 2 of the higher value not counting ones that have modifiers such as (glancing) (critical)
Yes, I re-tested this not two weeks ago at the prompting of another rogue friend of mine. The combat log always displays the "You gain 1 extra attack through Sword Specialization" note immediately preceding the hit that causes the proc. The sword spec swing itself comes last. So for example:

You gain 1 extra attack through Sword Specialization.
Your melee swing hits Some Douche for 234. (off hand swing that procced sword spec)
Your melee swing hits Some Douche for 564. (main hand swing from sword spec)
Your melee swing hits Some Douche for 535. (regularly scheduled main hand swing)
#2900SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1woodrow
Tad bit of help ,thanks in advance.

The World of Warcraft Armory
Is direct link to armory , Ive used the spreedsheet to the best of my ability, also read through the stickies @ the front of the forums, but maybe im missing something. normaly alone in a raid "10 man" no shammy etc. i only average 600ish dps. odd imo. yeah i use +120 hit food. and i try to max out my hit towards around 350ish. At the moment im only geared enough for SSC and some MH trash possibly. does a rogue need to get close to 350 NOW @ this level or work on it as a progression type hit+. the spreedsheet always suggest + 10 hit gems in pretty much all socketed gear. Please elaborate ? lol thanks tho in advance.
#2901SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Roefyll
Check to make sure raid buffs have been disabled in your spreadsheet if they're not available. What DPS is your spreadsheet giving you, as a discrepency of a few hundred DPS is normal especially for less experienced rogues.
#2902SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1misada
Originally Posted by Vulajin View Post
Yes, I re-tested this not two weeks ago at the prompting of another rogue friend of mine. The combat log always displays the "You gain 1 extra attack through Sword Specialization" note immediately preceding the hit that causes the proc. The sword spec swing itself comes last. So for example:

You gain 1 extra attack through Sword Specialization.
Your melee swing hits Some Douche for 234. (off hand swing that procced sword spec)
Your melee swing hits Some Douche for 564. (main hand swing from sword spec)
Your melee swing hits Some Douche for 535. (regularly scheduled main hand swing)
thank you vula, going back through it all that does make things work out properly :-D
#2903SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1woodrow
well it use to be around 700ish on normal raid buffs, now its like taking a noticble dive since i started using alot of hit gems , im doing a couple of test using +4hit and + 4 agi to see if that truly was the lose, but maybe someone can answer this. A rogue @ SSC/TK content. does or doesnt need to be near 350ish or 360ish hit ?
#2904SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1neg^
Originally Posted by woodrow View Post
well it use to be around 700ish on normal raid buffs, now its like taking a noticble dive since i started using alot of hit gems , im doing a couple of test using +4hit and + 4 agi to see if that truly was the lose, but maybe someone can answer this. A rogue @ SSC/TK content. does or doesnt need to be near 350ish or 360ish hit ?
A rogue at any content need to use whatever items he has access to that nets him the highest possible dps. Wether that gives you 200 or 350 HR is irrelevant. Although at 320+ you'll start to be hitcapped against 70-71 mobs, so depending on what you're raiding you might have a bit of wasted stats. I've noticed that my cycles get a bit more random when I'm dropping down closer to 200-220 hr, but I can't be arsed to regem everything constantly.

You really can't go much wrong with hit/agi in all red and yellows though. Try your favourite spreadsheet and check the differences yourself.
#2905SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Jezz
Originally Posted by woodrow View Post
well it use to be around 700ish on normal raid buffs, now its like taking a noticble dive since i started using alot of hit gems , im doing a couple of test using +4hit and + 4 agi to see if that truly was the lose, but maybe someone can answer this. A rogue @ SSC/TK content. does or doesnt need to be near 350ish or 360ish hit ?
The answer to this question is in the original post.

The hit and expertise caps are NOT magic numbers that every rogue [or any rogue] must reach. Whether you're in T4 or T6, there are NO MAGIC NUMBERS for how much hit or expertise rating you "should" have. There is no special benefit to being capped with either stat, nor is there any special benefit to reaching an arbitrary threshold. The purpose of listing the caps here is so that you do not accidentally overshoot either cap by equipping too much hit rating or expertise rating. Always remember that any hit rating or expertise rating beyond the cap will have zero positive effect on your DPS.
#2906SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1woodrow
I know what the priginal post said. but maybe it was clear as to what level of content your dealing with. kara rogues imo shouldnt be going for 300+ hit rating ? vs rogues in Hyjal. maybe my cycle is off but im doing 680ish dps reguardless
#2907SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Aldriana
Okay, if you'd actually *read* the first post, you'll note that it specifically says that there is no magic level hit that you should be trying for, at any gear level. You shouldn't be trying for "300+ hit" no matter whether you're in T4 content or T6.

The first post also provides useful information like stat point weightings at every gear level, and thus gives a very precise estimate of how much hit might be worth for you.
#2908SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1purrvious
Hi everyone

This is my first post, but i have been reading these forums for a while now. I would like to thank the people that have contributed to improving not only my dps but many other rogues. Thanks a lot guys

Right now i have a few quetions

First. marcos?
i have a speedpad, my keys are macroed but not in sequence. For example ss 5 times then ruture. Mine are; for example:
/cast [modifier:shift] deadly throw
/stopmacro [modifier:shift]
/cast [nostealth, nocombat] Stealth
/cast [stealth] garrote ; [nostealth] rupture

Basically i spam my buttons to do my damage. However now im thinking if i had a macro in a sequence that would allowed me to check my energy/procs more. Im interested in what you guys do. Any input would be useful. Thanks.

Now for pooling energy. When should we be pooling energy? I gather right before poping cooldowns but if i went to a 5s/5r rotation before repeating i would have time to energy pool. Is this wise? My way of thinking is the more energy i use the more damage i can do. I get the concept of having a certain amount of energy in a fight due to procs and combat potency. Does pooling energy really do more damage over all?

Finally, demo warlocks in our guild do more damage then our rogues. Right now we are 5/8 BT we have a warlock in full t5 and he does more dps then anyone in the guild, around 1700-1900 dps. i cannot catch this person on dps. My question is, when i start getting end game items will my dps improve so i can beat warlocks? I can only manage 1400-1600 dps with my current gear. You are welcome to look me up on armoury and see if i am doing anything wrong.


Thanks again and keep up the good work
#2909SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Latito
Originally Posted by purrvious View Post
Finally, demo warlocks in our guild do more damage then our rogues. Right now we are 5/8 BT we have a warlock in full t5 and he does more dps then anyone in the guild, around 1700-1900 dps. i cannot catch this person on dps. My question is, when i start getting end game items will my dps improve so i can beat warlocks? I can only manage 1400-1600 dps with my current gear. You are welcome to look me up on armoury and see if i am doing anything wrong.
Skill and Group buffs go a LOOOONG way towards your dps. Warlocks can do very excellent dps. 1700-1900 in T5 is certainly on the excellent end of things. Properly buffed, they are a fierce competitor on the dps meters - often the nature of the fight will determine who comes out on top.

How are your group buffs? I may have Sunwell gear, but if I don't have Battle Shout.. I may as well be in ZA gear. With the gear and buffs I have for Brutallus, if I take the enhancement shaman out of my group (not replacing him w/ another class) I lose 30% of my dps. 30%. Over 600 dps gain from a single party member. If you're getting unimproved battle shout, resto-windfury (no UR or twisted GoA), no drums, no CoR, no Surv hunter, no Arms warrior, etc. and the warlock has an Ele shaman, Spriest, Moonkin, well it just isn't a fair fight.




And just to confirm about the /startattack line in macros - it does NOT reset your swing timer. I have that bound to a wheel on my mouse that has free-spin. about 20MB of my combat log each night is "Not enough energy" or "Not yet recovered" from my spinning that thing so fast. If it reset my auto attack, I wouldn't be dps'ing.
#2910SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1madman
0/2 Weapon Expertise, non-Human: 103
1/2 Weapon Expertise, non-Human: 83
2/2 Weapon Expertise, non-Human: 64
0/2 Weapon Expertise, Human (wielding swords or maces): 83
1/2 Weapon Expertise, Human: 64
2/2 Weapon Expertise, Human: 44
Does this mean that when I apply the talent point, the exp cap is the same for dagger as for sword/mace?
#2911SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1drumbum
Originally Posted by madman View Post
Does this mean that when I apply the talent point, the exp cap is the same for dagger as for sword/mace?
No, a Human wielding a dagger or fist weapon should follow the "non-Human" values.
#2912SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1madman
Originally Posted by drumbum View Post
No, a Human wielding a dagger or fist weapon should follow the "non-Human" values.
So it goes like this (assuming 2/2 weap expertise)?

Expertise: 64
Expertise dagger: 84
Expertise (human): 44
Expertise dagger (human): 64
#2913SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Vulajin
Originally Posted by madman View Post
So it goes like this (assuming 2/2 weap expertise)?

Expertise all weapons (non-human): 64
Expertise swords/maces (human): 44
Expertise other weapons (human): 64
Fixed.
#2914SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1vyedma
For daggers (any race) it would be:

0/2 Weapon Expertise: 103
1/2 Weapon Expertise: 83
2/2 Weapon Expertise: 64
#2915SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1madman
Aha. Thanks.
#2916SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Alexandyr
Would the Bloodlust Brooch be an upgrade over the Hour of the Unraveller?

Would the Bloodlust Brooch be an upgrade over the Hour of the Unraveller?

I ask this only because the hourglass has a proc on crit, where the brooch has a set cooldown. I have the badges and I was just wondering if it would be worth it for the upgrade. I also have Romulo’s Poison Vial which I would like to get rid of, but I need the 35hit at this moment in time.

Also I am putting out around 1,200 DPS on rogue friendly fights in Kara, and about 750ish on Prince. In ZA I do 1k on bear, eagle. Is that good or bad for my gear? The World of Warcraft Armory

If anyone is bored or does not mind answering me it would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks for running and maintaining such a great site on advice for all types of classes and specs, this thread has been a huge help to me as a player so far. Also any comment on my gear and upgrade suggestions would be very welcome. If there is a better place to be posting this please let me know.

Thanks!
#2917SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Shaker
Try reading the first post, which has links to these arcane bits of knowledge known only as "spreadsheets". They contain the answers to your questions.
#2918SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Cally
I know some posters on here say that trash dps matters. However, there isn't
anything specific on the first post stating what the best use of energy/combo points
is on trash, especially trash that dies quickly.

I've searched on this thread for some answers and there seems to be two options:

1. Don't worry about envenom/eviscerate, get SnD up as soon as possible and burn
remaining CPs on SnD and move to the next trash mob.

2. Get a 1-2 CP SnD up, if 4/5 CPs are left, envenom if 5 stacks of DP up, otherwise
eviscerate.

Now, there are many scenarios we can consider. For example, a trash mob has a few
seconds to live, you still have SnD up, and you have 3 CPs. Do you burn the CPs on
an eviscerate/envenom or do you extend SnD for several more seconds and "transfer"
those CPs to the next trash mob?

Just wanted to know what the consensus is on maximizing trash dps. Thanks.

Last edited by Cally : 05/07/08 at 4:52 PM.
#2919SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Vulajin
I'll usually use trailing CP on the first mob to extend SnD so that I can spend all of my CP on the next mob on an Eviscerate or whatever.

Honestly, the most important factors in trash DPS are getting from mob to mob quickly and keeping your cooldowns on cooldown whenever you're in combat. Anything else is icing.
#2920SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1sevol
Apologies if this has been discussed in other threads but so far I have been unable to find it.

My guild has recently downed Kale and we are preparing to begin work on Brutallus. To this end I have been looking at a lot of WWS pages to see how other rogues have been performing and what buffs etc they are bringing in. One thing that I have been noticing is that a lot of the top damage rogues on the WWS reports have had the expose weakness buff up from the Ashtounge trinket. No matter how I plug my gear into the spreadsheet and what buffs I have selected I cannot see why they would be making this choice in trinket over the DST/Shard combo which for me beats out Ashtounge/DST by around 10dps. Is this due to the relatively short nature of the fight and the fact that the Ashtounge has no internal cooldown or is it a dual warglaive thing?

Your insight into this would be appreciated as it has been bugging me.

Cheers.
#2921SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Kytrarewn
Originally Posted by sevol View Post
To this end I have been looking at a lot of WWS pages to see how other rogues have been performing and what buffs etc they are bringing in. One thing that I have been noticing is that a lot of the top damage rogues on the WWS reports have had the expose weakness buff up from the Ashtounge trinket.
Have you tried T6 boots, Vashj Belt?

If you're otherwise expertise-capped otherwise (and haven't received the T6 belt yet for whatever reason), Shard of Contempt isn't the superior trinket.
#2922SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Vulajin
Here's an excerpt from the upcoming TTT version of this article:

The [Ashtongue Talisman of Lethality] is worthy of special mention because its proc's power can be somewhat controlled through appropriate timing of finisher usage. Specifically, by delaying usage of each finisher until your energy is nearly full (see the Advanced Play Skills section for more on this technique, called "energy pooling"), it is possible to have the Talisman's proc last until you've generated all or almost all of the combo points for your next finisher. This effect enables the Talisman to reach slightly greater performance in reality than theoretical models indicate, pulling much closer to Dragonspine Trophy or Shard of Contempt.
When you combine this effect with the fact that some of the Shard's expertise is extraneous for some rogues, it's very possible for AToL's performance to surpass SoC's on Brutallus.
#2923SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
sevol
delete me

Last edited by sevol : 05/07/08 at 10:27 PM. Reason: posting without thinking
#2924SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Aerlyn
Hello everyone,
I have recently started BT and after a few runs, it became evident to me that my DPS is nowhere as close as where it should be with my gear.
For example, I made 1400 dps at akama and 1724 on RoS, both fights where rogues should shine. Worst is that I can't exactly figure what I did wrong. The rotation I am using is 4snd/5r, on akama i used AR+BF+haste pot when i had 2 of the channellers close to maximize BF effect, on RoS I was just keeping up the rotation and using haste pots paired with BF everytime they were on CD (I was not on kicking duty). AR was used at the start of the fight and again 20 sec before RoS died (I actually ended up in pulling aggro at RoS 5 seconds before he died and died myself).
Note to mention that in those tries, I had a perfect group make up: enh shaman,warrior (imp bs but no solarian trinket), and a feral druid. Basically I can't understand what I do wrong. SnD never felt,also I was the highest amount of time possible on my target (if you exclude the time in which you move from one channeller to another in akama).
I don't play a rogue since a long so my conclusion is that I am doing something way off, but I can't exactly pinpoint what. Any helps/suggestion by fellow experienced rogue would be appreciated. Thanks in advance for the help.

Edit: forgot to mention I was using a flask, and hot spicy talbuk. Also the armory seem to show me with a few pieces of pvp gear, In pve I use the t4 helm with a RED and 5agi/4hit gems, bracers are the master assassin wristwraps with +8 hit, boots are the nyn'jah's tabi boots with 4agi/6 sta and a 5agi/4 hit gem (getting the socket bonus here), arcanite steam pistol instead of the war edge, lust brooch instead of the pvp trinket and cloak of the craft (25 agi 20AP and 13 HR) instead of the dory's embrace. That puts me at 1880 AP, 304 hit, w/o buffs.

Last edited by Aerlyn : Yesterday at 6:15 AM.
#2925SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Diora
I highly doubt you are doing anything wrong. Get 2-piece T6 working your way up to 4-piece. A survival hunter in the raid also helps your dps. I think you are mainly lacking gear.
#2926SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Urbanpt
Eya guys. Ive a issue with shoulders should i use.
I always used [Shoulderpads of the Stranger] since i gotta them over t5 of VR.

But now with [Shard of Contempt], racial bonus of sword spec (im human) and 2 talent points on weapon expertise im capped for expertise and dont need [Shoulderpads of the Stranger].

For replace them ive [Deathmantle Shoulderpads] and [Shoulderpads of the Silvermoon Retainer]. I use [Deathmantle Handguards] too.

Ive used sheet and score was very, very similar like 1 or 2dps. After i get expertise capped, why sheet shouldnt give a "decent result" telling me for drop Stranger's?! I think [Shoulderpads of the Silvermoon Retainer] are better and that im using atm. Btw our guild are killing Naj and im looking for [Mantle of Darkness] thats a better replace.

Let me know your opinion. Thx in advance.

EDIT: In addition, i have 2 gems 4agi/6sta on [Deathmantle Shoulderpads] cos some months ago i need blue gems for meta works. But now, i dont need them. So when i ask about what shoulders should i use, we need to think about if worth change the gems. If i dont change gems, [Shoulderpads of the Silvermoon Retainer] is better i guess. Dont forget about t5 bonus with gloves. I think first bonus of t5 is pretty useless most of times in raid ambients, cos i use 4s5r. Maybe good in bosses immune to bleed effects.

Last edited by Urbanpt : 05/09/08 at 12:30 PM.
#2927SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Furyblade
I believe Deathmantle comes out on top because of it's ilvl, but the items are indeed similiar. My roommate and I were debating these two items the other day ironically and we viewed hit/crit on a 1:1 ration, weighed up all the stats and the T5 came out on top, but barely. Please correct me if I'm wrong, still trying to learn from reading here =)
#2928SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1 Hanos
Originally Posted by sevol View Post
Apologies if this has been discussed in other threads but so far I have been unable to find it.

My guild has recently downed Kale and we are preparing to begin work on Brutallus. To this end I have been looking at a lot of WWS pages to see how other rogues have been performing and what buffs etc they are bringing in. One thing that I have been noticing is that a lot of the top damage rogues on the WWS reports have had the expose weakness buff up from the Ashtounge trinket. No matter how I plug my gear into the spreadsheet and what buffs I have selected I cannot see why they would be making this choice in trinket over the DST/Shard combo which for me beats out Ashtounge/DST by around 10dps. Is this due to the relatively short nature of the fight and the fact that the Ashtounge has no internal cooldown or is it a dual warglaive thing?

Your insight into this would be appreciated as it has been bugging me.

Cheers.
Also, despite prolonged and repeated efforts, some of us (regardless of gear level), simply have not been able to obtain a DST and/or Shard of Contempt. Personally I have been running Gruul since March of 2007, so 14+ months, and I have run Heroic Magister's Terrace 25-30 times, and have simply not been able to pick one up. When and if I am able to get either trinket I would use it, but currently my choices are Warpspring, Madness or Ashtongue, so I use Warpspring/Ashtongue for Brutallus.
#2929SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Balkoth
Originally Posted by Furyblade View Post
I believe Deathmantle comes out on top because of it's ilvl, but the items are indeed similiar. My roommate and I were debating these two items the other day ironically and we viewed hit/crit on a 1:1 ration, weighed up all the stats and the T5 came out on top, but barely. Please correct me if I'm wrong, still trying to learn from reading here =)
Yes, you're completely wrong. If you had actually read the first post of this thread, specifically section 5 (Gear Selection), you would have noticed the handy stat tables. Looking at the tables would have showed you that hit rating is a full 50% better than crit rating at any given gear level.

Or, of course, you could have used either spreadsheet. I use the Gear Spreadsheet, and here are my results:

Shoulderpads of the Silvermoon Retainer: 1606.06
Deathmantle Shoulders: 1607.93 DPS
Mantle of Darkness: 1609.56

Thus, the Mantle of Darkness, at least for my gear (some t4, some ZA, some badge loot) is better by 1.5 DPS, or 5 EP. And that seems likely to hold true regardless.
#2930SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1apocalypticanada
Eviscerate vs. Envenom

I was wondering if putting points in improved Eviscerate is worth the points so that your Deadly poison can be left ticking a little bit longer before using Envenom, and if this will increase over-all DPS. For example; Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft or Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft vs. Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Because it looks like Eviscerate causes more instant damage making deadly poisons more useful ticking even after eviscerate, but not long enough to end without the instant Envenom damage.
#2931SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1saedo
Originally Posted by apocalypticanada View Post
I was wondering if putting points in improved Eviscerate is worth the points so that your Deadly poison can be left ticking a little bit longer before using Envenom, and if this will increase over-all DPS. For example; Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft or Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft vs. Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

Because it looks like Eviscerate causes more instant damage making deadly poisons more useful ticking even after eviscerate, but not long enough to end without the instant Envenom damage.

Read the first post of this thread. Section 9 near the bottom. On Eviscerate and On Envenom sections.
#2932SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Mideci
Originally Posted by Vulajin View Post
Here's an excerpt from the upcoming TTT version of this article:



When you combine this effect with the fact that some of the Shard's expertise is extraneous for some rogues, it's very possible for AToL's performance to surpass SoC's on Brutallus.
Spreadsheet notwithstanding, a good friend of mine with glaives and DST/Shard/AtoL is quite certain the best combo on Brutallus is Shard/AtoL. They've wiped enough he's had enough tries to be firmly convinced of this. It's possible his data set is somehow skewed. It's also possible the spreadsheet is an imperfect modeler of the universe. He has the tier 6 boots, so some of the shard's expertise is "extraneous" and yet, this is what he reports.

We've discussed at some length that the spredsheets suggest other combos would beat it, but they don't on the actual fight.
#2933SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Ricard
I would suggest that, subconsciously trying to prove a point, your friend has been performing slightly worse with the DST in instead of the Shard, or whatever other combo is suggested to be better. It is often the case that if a person notices a pattern and they want to prove that it is universal, they'll unknowingly skew their own performance to make it so.

On the other hand, are you certain that the DST is better at your friend's gear level? I know that at mine, the Shard is better than the DST and Aldriana said something about this phenomenon repeating its self at extremely high gear levels.
#2934SourcePosted on <=2.0.0purrvious
Hello me again

Going back to latito's post.

You have a macro that uses your mouse wheel. Do u mind elaborating on that? Im very interested in maximizing my macros for pve. Because atm i think my macros are inferior. So if you could give me/us some marco advice that would be great thnx.

Also another question.

We have in the group 2xrogues, warrior, shaman, druid.

Now the warrior usually wants heroism at the end of the fight where he can execute spam. However me being more popular in the guild can make the shaman cast heroism whenever i say. So when is the best time? To begin with when warrior has 5 sunders and all cool-downs and procs up or save my AR and time my BF cool-down till the end of the fight for the warrior?

These things seem like a small dps gain to me, but my way of thinking is if i can gain that addition 1%'s, soon i will have a full 10% dps gain. So i really want to get all the little things out and right.

One more thing. I was looking for a mod that tells me when things like when battleshout falls off. I know natures enemy task bar is a good one but i want it to make a sound or give a big icon, so i can see it fall off and i dont have to look at it and lose concentration on rotation and fight. So if someone else isn't refreshing there buffs i can see it. Any idea's, i was thinking maybe pallie aura, but im not sure how i would set that up

Thanks again guys.

(i have written this late at night so i hope it all makes sense) i will edit it if i read it tomorrow and i cant understand it. :P GL
#2935SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Ricard
Depending on the length of the fight, you want to have heroism happen during execute range for the warrior's sake. If the fight is generally under ten minutes in length, say, it shouldn't matter to you -where- in the fight you get heroism, so long as you can time it with your Blade Flurry and, if possible, your AR (Blade Flurry has better synergy with heroism than AR does, but you will see some small benefit with AR due to increased chance for mongoose proc). It will matter to the warrior, though, who will get increased rage generation during Heroism that he can burn into executes. This doesn't by any means say that you should save your BF and AR for execute range. You should pop them as soon as you can. However, BF should come up again several times in the fight, and if you're nearing 20% when it comes up, you might want to save it. If it's still on cooldown when 20% comes up, you can ask for heroism to wait a few seconds. Just so long as the heroism buff gets near it's full duration before the boss dies.
#2936SourcePosted on <=2.0.0 Aldriana
Originally Posted by Mideci View Post
Spreadsheet notwithstanding, a good friend of mine with glaives and DST/Shard/AtoL is quite certain the best combo on Brutallus is Shard/AtoL. They've wiped enough he's had enough tries to be firmly convinced of this. It's possible his data set is somehow skewed. It's also possible the spreadsheet is an imperfect modeler of the universe. He has the tier 6 boots, so some of the shard's expertise is "extraneous" and yet, this is what he reports.

We've discussed at some length that the spredsheets suggest other combos would beat it, but they don't on the actual fight.
So let me make a quick comment on this.

DPS, as we all know, has a fair amount of variance in it. Even wearing the exact same gear with the exact same buffs on the exact same fight, your DPS can easily be fairly significantly different. As an off-the-cuff estimate, lets say the standard deviation on a 6 minute fight is 50 DPS, which is probably on the right order of magnitude.

The differences that you're trying to detect between the trinkets in question is probably under 5 DPS in most cases. So in order to accurately determine which is better, you need to reduce the standard deviation of the difference between the two to under 2 DPS (such that 5 DPS falls outside the 95% confidence range). Doing so would require, based on our estimates, about 1250 attempts which each combination of gear. So to get a fair comparison in combat between 2 different trinkets, you need to do Brutallus in otherwise identical gear and spec, with the exact same raid group keeping up the exact same raid buffs. at least 2500 times... which I somehow doubt that your friend has done. If he has, kindly give him my sympathies.

Also note that this assumes that you play each trinket with identical skill. If the buff management of AToL makes you pay better attention to you energy management causing you to cap out less often and/or drop SnD less, you might very well do more damage with it. But that doesn't mean it's a better trinket - it just means that you're better at playing it.

Basically: there's a reason I don't put much stock in anecdotal evidence of any sort - it's just too inaccurate except on scales not achievable by any human. Even imperfect statistical models like the ones in the spreadsheets will more often give useful numbers than any number of WWS parses.
#2937SourcePosted on <=2.0.0 frmorrison
Originally Posted by purrvious View Post

You have a macro that uses your mouse wheel. Do u mind elaborating on that? Im very interested in maximizing my macros for pve. Because atm i think my macros are inferior. So if you could give me/us some marco advice that would be great thnx.
I have mouse wheel down bound to action bar 3, which is bound to my main attack or main heal.

I use it for that button so that I can spam it (via doing mouse down a lot) once the cooldown or casting bar is up.
#2938SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Mideci
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
So let me make a quick comment on this.

DPS, as we all know, has a fair amount of variance in it. Even wearing the exact same gear with the exact same buffs on the exact same fight, your DPS can easily be fairly significantly different. As an off-the-cuff estimate, lets say the standard deviation on a 6 minute fight is 50 DPS, which is probably on the right order of magnitude.

The differences that you're trying to detect between the trinkets in question is probably under 5 DPS in most cases. So in order to accurately determine which is better, you need to reduce the standard deviation of the difference between the two to under 2 DPS (such that 5 DPS falls outside the 95% confidence range). Doing so would require, based on our estimates, about 1250 attempts which each combination of gear. So to get a fair comparison in combat between 2 different trinkets, you need to do Brutallus in otherwise identical gear and spec, with the exact same raid group keeping up the exact same raid buffs. at least 2500 times... which I somehow doubt that your friend has done. If he has, kindly give him my sympathies.

Also note that this assumes that you play each trinket with identical skill. If the buff management of AToL makes you pay better attention to you energy management causing you to cap out less often and/or drop SnD less, you might very well do more damage with it. But that doesn't mean it's a better trinket - it just means that you're better at playing it.

Basically: there's a reason I don't put much stock in anecdotal evidence of any sort - it's just too inaccurate except on scales not achievable by any human. Even imperfect statistical models like the ones in the spreadsheets will more often give useful numbers than any number of WWS parses.
Ald, no he hasn't suffered 2500 goes on Brut. They have their share of wipes, but not quite that many.

I'll leave it to him to report the numbers and/or link the WWS. I'm not sure what variance he's seeing or how accurate his perception really is. I am sure he's certain of it. He's extremely well geared. He's extremely competent at playing his rogue.

And at this point he's pretty certain of the trinket combo.

Take it all with a grain of salt or a shaker's worth but it's one person's opinion. And in this case, the guy is qualified to offer the opinion at least.
#2939SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Left
With respect to the DST/Shard conversation, I would think Shard would be superior from a playability standpoint. With DST, the change in haste affects Combat Potency procs, which could cause you to have issues with your cycle for the duration of the effect (greater chance for energy to cap out, etc). DST might edge out Shard in a theoretical cycle, but in practice Shard may be easier to play (as AP doesn't affect your cycle itself, just cycle damage).
#2951SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Tornsoul
Raid DPS and scaling

I did Rage Winterchill yesterday, On him and the trash before him (with a warrior and enh shammy in grp) I averaged about 980 DPS on average.

In 5man instances (without battleshout or wf totems/drums/hastepots) I average about 700-800 DPS.

I've been trying to max out my gear and I still have some upgrades left but I'm still deviating from dps spreadsheet by 200 DPS in raids and about 200 DPS in normal instances (and yes I've changed the debuffs part)

With my t4 bonus, 1s/5r is suggested, on trash I generally make it 1s/5e because they die too quickly for rupture to leverage (on hp intensive trash I use rupture when I see it'll run out) A problem for me is that I generally do one SS too much and mob ends up dying with 4 points up and me at 0 energy (not managing to evisc).
In 5man instances I generally go for 2s/5r to reduce my reliance on combat potency procs.

Would it be better DPS to start trailing the snd? (i.e doing a 5 point snd on first mob and then only evisc on next)

I use the CD's whenever they're up, if I see the AR and BF cd's reasonably timed on cd's I'll try to time them together.

I feel that my DPS is far too low, yet in the recently mentioned raid I managed to outdps (in total) both other rogues in my guild, albeit them being better geared.

I've been playing a warlock for a large part of my raiding time and with full karagear and craftable epics I had about 1100 shadowdmg selfbuffed and with it I could keep 1,1k DPS in raids no problem, it just feels that with my rogues current gear I'm still doing less dmg than my warlock even though my gear should be better.

What am I doing wrong?

Secondary question - While I understand the meaning of "don't let your energy go to 0"
How do you keep it from going there?
Should I just not use SS until I'm at 50-60 energy in order to not hit 0 energy or what does that imply?
#2952SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Balkoth
Trash DPS will be no where near the spreadsheet DPS. The spreadsheet is assuming you never have to move and can endlessly DPS. If you can get a Rage Winterchill attempt where you NEVER have a death and decay or frostbolt on you and he doesn't have the frost armor buff (is that random?), then you should be within 50 DPS of the spreadsheet. If anything interrupts your damage for whatever reason, the DPS recorded by meters is going to less than the ideal in 99% of the cases.
#2953SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Tercero
Originally Posted by Tornsoul View Post
Secondary question - While I understand the meaning of "don't let your energy go to 0"
How do you keep it from going there?
Should I just not use SS until I'm at 50-60 energy in order to not hit 0 energy or what does that imply?
"Don't let your energy cap out" is probably what you're referring to and that just means you don't want to have a full energy bar w/ ticks being wasted by not being used. (correct me if I'm wrong P-L-E-A-S-E*)

*Laugh Out Loud

Last edited by Tercero : 05/12/08 at 8:10 PM.
#2954SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1
Edited onPatch 2.4.1
Tornsoul
Thanks alot for the help, Yeah thats true balkoth, I had Death and decay on me numerous times and also frost armor buff ( I think its percentage @ melee attack based )

Yes Tercero, that was what I was referring to but I was just thinking the other way around, then I get it

So 980 DPS is quite okay for a rogue with my gear then?

I just feel that its so low damnit, I want to do more DPS!

I guess the place where I can do most is the "keep on at mobs at all times" part.

But yet again,
Would it be better DPS to start trailing the snd? (i.e doing a 5 point snd on first mob and then only evisc on next) in favor of approaching the mob as if a boss (1s/5r) but doing evisc instead?

EDIT: Thanks - I'm still new to "search this thread features.

Last edited by Tornsoul : 05/12/08 at 7:45 PM. Reason: Energypooling.
#2955SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Capek
Originally Posted by Tornsoul View Post
EDIT: and where can I read up on energypooling? I dont find it.
Click the search this thread button and type 'pooling'.
#2956SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.1Balkoth
Originally Posted by Tornsoul View Post
Thanks alot for the help, Yeah thats true balkoth, I had Death and decay on me numerous times and also frost armor buff ( I think its percentage @ melee attack based )

So 980 DPS is quite okay for a rogue with my gear then?
I meant is it random if he HAS the buff, because I could swear I've seen attempts where he doesn't have frost armor.

As to whether 980 DPS is fine...use the spreadsheet on a more sustained fight. One of the easiest ways to test it would be to do to DM north and find the ghosts. Uncheck all buffs on the spreadsheet and then DPS a ghost. You will be HIGHER than the spreadsheet says due to not missing, critting more, less armor reduction, and less dodges, so if you aren't, say, at least 10% of the spreadsheet...you're probably doing something wrong. Otherwise, your cycle is likely fine.

If you're lucky, you'll get a Tidewalker or Gorefiend kill to test your DPS on with no graves or constructs.
#2957SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Ermengol
EP?

I suppose this has been asked before (100+ pages to check, and search option doesn't help, my apologies) but, where do these numbers come from? My (simple) assumption was WoW-Europe.com Forums -> Agi > AP for PvE?

I read how 1agi is about 2.15AP but I don't understand why.
#2958SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Tornsoul
I'll do that, thanks balkoth.
#2959SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2drumbum
The EP values are based on the calculations from the Rogue Gear Spreadsheet when used with a "typical" set of raid gear chosen by Vulajin for each particular raid tier level. The spreadsheet simply calculates DPS with that gear and also with that gear plus 1 additional agility, subtracts the two calculated values, and uses that difference to determine the EP value for agility. (The same process is used for the other stats as well.)
#2960SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Tornsoul
So I tested at DM north and did about 40 DPS more than the spreadsheet - it's cool I guess.

Guess I just have the feeling that I should be doing more DPS.
#2961SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2neg^
Originally Posted by Tornsoul View Post
So I tested at DM north and did about 40 DPS more than the spreadsheet - it's cool I guess.

Guess I just have the feeling that I should be doing more DPS.
You still have 2pc t4 and a few pvp items, so will be higher once you gear up. Apart from that rogue dps is highly dependant on group and raid (de)buffs, all of which is modelled in your favourite spreadsheet.

Different mods and tools also calculate dps somewhat differently. Most in-game meters will show lower numbers then WWS reports for example. And last but not least, your dps numbers will be higher the better gear the whole raid has.
#2962SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2monkstah
Hit Rating vs Attack Power

Ok, so I've been playing a rogue now for several several months. Due to drops, I am straight combat fist specced and done properly as shown on here. I am curious though, because I've heard people say some things in trade recently.

Is it worth me having a 1600 AP and 300 Hit Rating (after +20 Spicy Hot Talbuk), or me having a 1750 AP and maybe a 200 Hit Rating?

I am on the Scarlet Crusade server as Monkstah if you wish to check out my gear.

But the gist is, right now unbuffed I am at 287 Hit Rating, 1573 AP. I could probably switch out some Hit Rating for AP if need be, or get other items that lose Hit, but gain AP, but based on everything I've read... I can afford to lose about 100-200 AP, if I gain 100 Hit.
#2963SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Dorvan
The answer is the same as virtually any "this gear or that gear" question: use one of the spreadsheets.
#2964SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2hedningen
Originally Posted by monkstah View Post
Ok, so I've been playing a rogue now for several several months. Due to drops, I am straight combat fist specced and done properly as shown on here. I am curious though, because I've heard people say some things in trade recently.

Is it worth me having a 1600 AP and 300 Hit Rating (after +20 Spicy Hot Talbuk), or me having a 1750 AP and maybe a 200 Hit Rating?

I am on the Scarlet Crusade server as Monkstah if you wish to check out my gear.

But the gist is, right now unbuffed I am at 287 Hit Rating, 1573 AP. I could probably switch out some Hit Rating for AP if need be, or get other items that lose Hit, but gain AP, but based on everything I've read... I can afford to lose about 100-200 AP, if I gain 100 Hit.
100Hit ~220 AP on a tier 4/5 level so fast answer would be no.

To get the full truth use the spreadsheets in the first post.
#2965SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Tosa
A couple of minor dps tricks I'd like to share.

Flame Cap shares a cooldown with Thistle Tea (and healthstones). But while Thistle Tea's cooldown is 5 minutes, it triggers only a 2 minute cooldown on the Flame Cap, even though Flame Cap itself has a 3 minute cooldown. In other words, you can chain both if you're not saving your cooldown for a healthstone or if you've already used all of the ones you had.

Oil of Immolation doesn't share a cooldown with anything. Too bad it only lasts 15 seconds, so you would need to bring a lot. It doesn't seem to trigger the global cooldown, so you can macro it to SnD or rupture or something.



The gains from them are small even when factoring in Misery, Curse of Elements, and Imp Scorch. But as far as I can tell they have no major downside, other than having to farm more.
#2966SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Iluat
Little problem

Hi all, I got a little problem with the spredsheet, it shows a total hit rating grater then mine in the game, I've carefuly looked at my gear, gems, enchants and talents, but I don't know why in the spreadshet I've got bout 20 more hit points. Do you know why?
Another question, if I have 2 pieces of the same set, is the bonus set used by the spreadsheet and automacally added to the "rough dps" or I have to add the ones described in the page "set bonus values"?
Thank you all.
#2967SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2drumbum
Set bonuses are automatically applied when you equip the proper pieces. You shouldn't modify the set bonus values.

As for the discrepancy -- first are you talking about HP ("hit points") or hit rating? You used both words so it's a bit confusing. Assuming you mean hit rating, the difference of 20 is probably coming from [Spicy Hot Talbuk], which can be set in the "Buffs_Menu" sheet.
#2968SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2monkstah
Originally Posted by hedningen View Post
100Hit ~220 AP on a tier 4/5 level so fast answer would be no.

To get the full truth use the spreadsheets in the first post.
Sorry I had tried to use the spreadsheet, but it doesn't have my fist weapon listed in it. The Left fist Brutality one, and I do not have Microsoft Excel, I use Openoffice. So causes problems.

Anyways, having read this forum countless times... Assuming Hit rating and AP are high, would haste be a good attribute to boost, or would Hit Rating still beat that out. Ie, if an item has a + haste vs one with + hit, would haste be an acceptable substitute if you are closing in on your max hit rating. Just between hit rating and haste only.
#2969SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Feist-Mok
Originally Posted by monkstah View Post
Sorry I had tried to use the spreadsheet, but it doesn't have my fist weapon listed in it. The Left fist Brutality one, and I do not have Microsoft Excel, I use Openoffice. So causes problems.
Thats because the Left Fist of Brutality is a 2.5 speed OFFHAND. Vanir's Left Fist of Savagery is fast, and is a very nice offhand, and is found in both spreadsheets.

If you are a rogue, using a 2.5 speed offhand, at an endgame level, you fail on so many levels, you are pre-spreadsheet in your need for gear optimization. Get a fast offhand. It will do more for your DPS than any stats you could hope to pick up.
#2970SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2 Ashersky
Originally Posted by Tosa View Post
A couple of minor dps tricks I'd like to share.

Flame Cap shares a cooldown with Thistle Tea (and healthstones). But while Thistle Tea's cooldown is 5 minutes, it triggers only a 2 minute cooldown on the Flame Cap, even though Flame Cap itself has a 3 minute cooldown. In other words, you can chain both if you're not saving your cooldown for a healthstone or if you've already used all of the ones you had.

Oil of Immolation doesn't share a cooldown with anything. Too bad it only lasts 15 seconds, so you would need to bring a lot. It doesn't seem to trigger the global cooldown, so you can macro it to SnD or rupture or something.



The gains from them are small even when factoring in Misery, Curse of Elements, and Imp Scorch. But as far as I can tell they have no major downside, other than having to farm more.
Along these lines, the [Crystal Charge] is useful if you don't use drums or bombs (shared cooldown) and like running around Un'Goro.
#2971SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2relax_ok
non 2 pc t4 cycle / gordok spirit testing

Hi

I was spoiled for a long time by the ezmode that is 2 pc t4 combat swords. 1s/5r, neither SnD or rupture ever dropping. After losing that, I am failing to understand the wisdom of 4s/5r and 5s/5r -- do these methods just assume that rupture will fall off 30-40% of the time? I've tested extensively on the Gordok Spirits to see how the uptime of the two was working, and found that by the time a 4 pt SnD was prepared, there were only about ~7 seconds left on a 5 pt rupture. I would estimate rupture being down 30-40% of the time as i said, as another was being built up. The spreadsheet shows 4.1s/5 for me, i've tried both 4s and 5s with little luck keeping rupture up. Is it common to be boggled when making this switch?


As a corollary to that, i'm used to starting mobs with garrote and the 1 pt straight into SnD which gets me into my cycle instantly. What do people start off fights with without 2pc t4? Is garrote into 1 pt SnD then 4 pt SnD then building 5 for rupture a common start?

Thanks
#2972SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2 Vulajin
You seem to be under the misunderstanding that 100% Rupture uptime is a requirement. While it is true that you want to strive for as high Rupture uptime as possible, 100% simply isn't feasible most of the time even if you do have T4 2pc, let alone if you don't.
#2973SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Tornsoul
As a corollary to that, i'm used to starting mobs with garrote and the 1 pt straight into SnD which gets me into my cycle instantly. What do people start off fights with without 2pc t4? Is garrote into 1 pt SnD then 4 pt SnD then building 5 for rupture a common start?
ditto.
#2974SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2 Vulajin
Garrote generally seems to be the preferred opener provided you can get to the mob's back in stealth in a reasonably short time. If it's going to take a long time just to get there, you're going to lose more DPS from the wait than you'll gain from using Garrote. Positioning yourself as close as possible to the spot where a boss will be tanked is usually a good idea. I think the last boss where I found it not worthwhile to try for Garrote was Supremus.
#2975SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Highlander
Originally Posted by Vulajin View Post
I think the last boss where I found it not worthwhile to try for Garrote was Supremus.
Depends on your tank I guess. Taking an extra second or three to get into position for a Garrote can give your tank 1-3k extra threat, which makes life a little easier.
#2976SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2patcherke
I was comparing a dagger build and a sword build.

Changing from a dagger build to a sword build, basically this is what happens:

1.First the 5 points of dagger specialization are changed into 5 points of sword specialization.

2.The 5 points of Opportunity (subtlety tree), and the 3 of Puncturing wounds (assassination tree) are converted to:

(Assassination tree)
1 extra point in Ruthlessness
1 extra point in Lethality
2 points in Murder
3 points in vile poison

3. Leaves us with 1 point to spend.

And the strange thing is what happens with that point.
This seems to be put in the talent ‘Nerves of steel’ in the combat tree.
Can someone tell me why this point is put in a talent, that is a filler talent, and which is unneeded to get to the higher talents? (I am sure it is unneeded, as the dagger build didn't need it either to get to Surprise Attacks)

As far as I can see it is more useful to put that extra point in Vile poisons (a 4th point)
Or even put it in another talent.

I know that removing movement impairing effects can give you extra damage (ie more time on the mob, but is the poison point not worth a lot more?
It appears to me that a 20/41/0 build is more damaging then a 19/42/0 build.

I don't know if it has been covered so far, somewhere in the thread (or that I have read over it). If so, then my apologies, and please point me to the correct posts then.
#2977SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2rhea
A matter of preference. The Nerves of Steel talent also works on many abilities that would be unresistable otherwise.

I would argue that in practice those resists give you alot more DPS-time on the target. eg. Kaz'rogal.
#2978SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Highlander
Originally Posted by patcherke View Post
Can someone tell me why this point is put in a talent, that is a filler talent, and which is unneeded to get to the higher talents? (I am sure it is unneeded, as the dagger build didn't need it either to get to Surprise Attacks)
Because Blizzard still loves to use fear mechanics to control the difficulty of fights and an extra 5% resistance to this equates to more DPS on those fights than 4% extra poison damage.
#2979SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Towelette
As for Garrote, I use it on most encounters myself. It gives the tank a little extra time to build threat and does solid damage compared to SS when there are no Sunders up on the target. I don't always use it on fights like Gruul or Void Reaver though; the room is so massive that I'd lose way too much DPS in-time stealthing all the way to the back of the bosses.

I do have a couple more questions of my own.

-From my understanding, a Rogue using Imp EA is going to be a rDPS increase over his personal loss from using Rupture -- is this correct?
-Because of that assumption, lately I've been thinking of asking one of our least-geared Rogues to spec for and keep up Imp EA on bosses to play around with it and see how our results turn out. I know I read of this being a strategy that a lot of guilds use on Brutallus; my guild is far from being in Sunwell, but is this a worthwhile strategy to use beforehand (think SSC, TK, early MH)?
-Besides the rDPS factor, how much, if any, would this interfere with Warrior threat generation from Devastate? I tried to read the Prot Warrior megathread to find an answer, but the math on that thread just kills me. It didn't sound like Imp EA would interfere with threat generation, but I thought I'd ask to make sure.
#2980SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Goldengiff
You don't ever use EA if there is a warrior tank, as imp EA will overwrite sunder stacks. Sunder/Devestate is a prot warrior's main source of threat. If you have bear/pally tanks, then by all means have your least-geared rogue do imp EA. Hell, our dual-warglaive rogue does Imp EA rotations on Brut some nights
#2981SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2 Aldriana
Yes, Imp EA is a rDPS increase, and a fairly significant one, assuming you have at least 2 physical DPS in the raid (the rogue and one other). The catch is that if you have a prot warrior tanking, you generally can't use it - it costs them quite a bit of threat, and I suspect it'd be almost impossible for them to hold aggro with EA up. I mean, talk to your tanks, and if they're okay with trying it feel free to do so and tell us how it goes; but I suspect you'll find that you're badly aggro limited, which negates the advantage of Imp EA.

Additionally, Imp EA isn't appropriate in all circumstances; it takes rather longer to stack up than Sunders do, so on a fight with lots of interruptions it's not worth it - it doesn't take too much Imp EA downtime before Sunders catch back up in rDPS contribution. So while it's good for largely sustained fights where you get it up initially 10 seconds into the fight and never drop it, it'd be a poor choice for, like, Al'ar or Solarian.

So, all in all: Imp EA does have it's uses, and there are fights where it's a great benefit in combination with druid (or paladin) tanks. But it's not something you can use all the time.

Edit to address Goldengiff's comment: keeping up Imp EA doesn't really cost a 2-glaive rogue any more damage than it does a rogue with lesser weapons; the only damage you're losing is Rupture, which only scales with AP; hence, it's entirely possible that a Infamy/Savagery rogue will lose less DPS than a 2-glaive rogue, depending on what their other gear looks like.
#2982SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2tetracycloide
There are a few things to consider when opting for EA

Rupture only scales with AP, not all gear, so least geared, in the general sense, does not necessarily mean least ruputre damage lost, in the absolute sense.

Imp EA dropping is a huge DPS loss for every physical damage dealer in the raid, poor rupture uptime is a loss of, at most, 100% rupture damage for one rogue.

Picking up Imp EA requires droping points from poison talents only, the DPS lost from the rogue picking up the talents does not scale significantly with gear.

Running an EA rotation will, in almost all cases, be a 5s/5ea rotation meaning that more energy will be going to sinister strike than in a typical 4.xs/5r rotation. SS DPE scales very well with gear meaning there is a smaller loss in effecency for a well geared rogue than a poorly geared rogue.

Given the DPS losses from maintaining EA that scale with gear are small and mitigated by a change in cycle machanics that favors high gear levels priorities for Imp EA assignments should not be driven by gear but by skill level. The most skilled rogue, i.e. the rogue least likely to bungle the rotation, should be assigned with keeping it up.
#2983SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
Splenius
I was able to convince our Prot Warriors to allow me to try using Imp EA on bosses which they were tanking after reading this article on Tankspot:
Warrior Expose Armour vs. Sunder Armour Revisited - TankSpot
I was using the 5s/5e rotation, which I found somewhat difficult to keep up on certain fights, especially Supremus (for whom I returned to using Rupture). None of the tanks had any complaints in terms of threat loss, and I did not notice a drop in their TPS as reported by Omen (I tried to keep on eye on to be sensitive to any problems). I'm including a WWS of that night, the first 3 Naj tries were with a Paladin tank, but everything beyond was tanked by a Prot Warrior.
Wow Web Stats
EDIT: I realize there are a lot of "didn't notice" and other subjective descriptors. If there is anything I can do to generate more reliable evidence, I'll do everything in my power to get it. I'll be adding another WWS of tonight's raid if that's deemed worthwhile.

Last edited by Splenius : 05/14/08 at 2:00 PM.
#2984SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2relax_ok
Rupture uptime

Originally Posted by Vulajin View Post
You seem to be under the misunderstanding that 100% Rupture uptime is a requirement. While it is true that you want to strive for as high Rupture uptime as possible, 100% simply isn't feasible most of the time even if you do have T4 2pc, let alone if you don't.

Hmm. For the longest time, i was using t4 helm+legs despite many significant upgrades elsewhere. Now i'm using badge legs but still t4 helm. Has anyone done some serious math as far as how much dps is lost from rupture dropping? I'd wonder if you compared the static increase of the badge pants over t4 pants, if it outweighed the old rupture damage over its complete cycle.

Assuming 6 second rupture downtime per 18 second cycle (12r + 6), 275 average tick.. that's 825 damage every 18 seconds lost, or 2750 per minute, 45 dps. Switching from t4 pants to badge pants on the spreadsheet, it actually claims a 48 dps increase. Hmm, that seems excessive. I wonder how much rupture downtime the spreadsheet model assumes - because there's a rotation that's recommended, but that doesnt imply how it calculates rupture damage falling off.

If this all somehow works out, it does seem to imply that at least in ideal circumstances, dropping 2 pc t4 for even 1 piece upgraded like that, is worthwhile.
#2985SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
Caspian
One thing to keep in mind is that the majority of our damage is our white damage, particularly with SnD. So, yes, you will lose fairly significant damage due to the downtime of Rupture, but according to the spreadsheet its a net gain in dps, presumably from the increased white damage you'll receive from the better pants.

EDIT: I double checked, and I do believe the decreased rupture is accounted for. In Aldrana's spreadsheet it lists the set bonus value of 2pc T4 as 39.30~ dps. For me, I've noticed it takes nearly a full tier upgrade in each piece in order to increase my overall dps just from losing that set bonus.

Last edited by Caspian : 05/14/08 at 2:31 PM.
#2986SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2lubricious
I have a question. I've noticed that lately many rogues are using mutilate for high-end content (by which I mean Sunwell).

I left mutilate behind after Karazhan, and have been combat swords ever since.
However now that I'm working on Sunwell (Just Kalecgos attempts so far), I'm wondering if all these rogues using a mutilate build in there know something I don't.

I have pretty good swords (Infamy/S2 quickblade), but I also have decent daggers (boundless agony/messenger of fate) so I don't think there's any reason as a non-human for me to prefer one build over the other from a weapons perspective at the moment.

Has mutilate at the t6 level finally caught up with combat swords?
I'd greatly appreciate input from someone else at the t6 level who may have experience with these builds.
#2987SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2 Aldriana
Originally Posted by Splenius View Post
I was able to convince our Prot Warriors to allow me to try using Imp EA on bosses which they were tanking after reading this article on Tankspot:
Warrior Expose Armour vs. Sunder Armour Revisited - TankSpot
I was using the 5s/5e rotation, which I found somewhat difficult to keep up on certain fights, especially Supremus (for whom I returned to using Rupture). None of the tanks had any complaints in terms of threat loss, and I did not notice a drop in their TPS as reported by Omen (I tried to keep on eye on to be sensitive to any problems). I'm including a WWS of that night, the first 3 Naj tries were with a Paladin tank, but everything beyond was tanked by a Prot Warrior.
Wow Web Stats
EDIT: I realize there are a lot of "didn't notice" and other subjective descriptors. If there is anything I can do to generate more reliable evidence, I'll do everything in my power to get it. I'll be adding another WWS of tonight's raid if that's deemed worthwhile.
So, the math in that tankspot article does have some definite issues, but fundamentally I suspect their answer is on the right order of magnitude - it's probably "about" 80 TPS. It might be 60 and it might be 100, but it's not going to be 500 or anything. Which, I admit, is a smaller threat loss than I might have expected, and there are certainly circumstances where that loss is survivable.

On the other hand, it's also true that, at least in my guild, a number of people are already threat limited. There's a fair number of people in the raid - warlocks, fury warriors, sometimes even our dual-glaive rogue - who pull off the tank even as it is. So if tank threat were lowered by 80 TPS... that would be a bad thing, on the whole.

But, if you're in the situation where no one is even coming close to pulling, and your tanks can lose 80 TPS and still hold aggro against everyone - or if, for instance, they have a significant head start on the mob - then, it could be worth considering.
#2988SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Rogar_Nox
Rogue specific attack table addon

Sorry for the potential off-topic post, but this seems to be the most focused Rogue specific thread in existence.

I am looking for an addon that displays the current attck table for my Rogue based on the gear at the moment. There is a similar addon for tanks called "Tankpoints".


Anyone know of something similiar for us Rogues?

Thanks.
#2989SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2drumbum
Originally Posted by relax_ok View Post
Hmm. For the longest time, i was using t4 helm+legs despite many significant upgrades elsewhere. Now i'm using badge legs but still t4 helm. Has anyone done some serious math as far as how much dps is lost from rupture dropping? I'd wonder if you compared the static increase of the badge pants over t4 pants, if it outweighed the old rupture damage over its complete cycle.
It does, easily. The math is in the spreadsheet. The 2pc T4 bonus is "good" but it's not "that good". Back when people would make small upgrades from T4 to T5, it made sense in some situations to keep 2 pieces of T4, because the upgrades were small when looking at it piece-by-piece. However, now that people can easily upgrade directly to T6 quality badge gear, this just isn't true anymore.

The spreadsheets don't "assume" any arbitrary Rupture uptime. It calculates the average length of your cycle, and adds the damage from one Rupture to that span of time.
#2990SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2 songster
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
Yes, Imp EA is a rDPS increase, and a fairly significant one, assuming you have at least 2 physical DPS in the raid (the rogue and one other).
Depends on gear/progression level. Imp EA at boss armor values comes out to about a 3% increase for physical DPSers.

For a Brutallus-killing guild you'll have something like 7 of them (5 melee group + 2 hunters) turning out 2k DPS each, that's a 420 DPS increase. Losing Rupture damage is going to take ~80 DPS off that, for a net of 340 DPS boost. If you have a warrior tanking, you're costing yourself threat - a progression guild can probably afford that though. For a less-progressed guild in BT, you're looking at your physical DPS only turning out an average of ~1500 DPS each. After accounting for loss of Rupture damage, you're looking at only ~240 DPS boost. Moreover, at that level, you may have less-geared or less-skilled tanks, which means you can't afford to lose the threat.

In addition, for my group, we often end up with a prot warrior on the raid even when we have a feral or pally tanking. That is, we run with one of each type of tank, and on fights where the feral's tanking, the prot warrior does leet Devastate DPS(*). In cases like this, the prot warrior is turning out ~1k DPS, 25% of which is from Devastate, which will be approximately halved if Expose is up. That drops the net gain from using Expose Armor down to only about 115 DPS, which is much less worth it, especially given the problem of temporary drops, etc..

Of course it goes without saying that if you don't have a prot warrior on the raid, it's pretty much always going to be worth using Improved Expose Armor. But if you do, then for most T6-level guilds it's only worth it on multi-tank fights - i.e. any time you can guarantee that the prot warrior isn't hitting your target.


(*) Yes, I know it usually makes more sense for the prot warrior to tank and the feral to go DPS, but there are some fights where a feral tank is plain better for other reasons, not least of which are resistance fights where the warrior doesn't have the kit yet. The feral is also our highest threat tank overall, so on DPS race fights it actually makes sense to lose his DPS in exchange for a higher threat ceiling on the rest of the DPS.
#2991SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2 Aldriana
Sure, I mean, there are other considerations regarding raid composition. Of course, on true progression content it's not unreasonable to respec your prot warrior for a fight he's not going to be tanking - our MT for the rest of Sunwell goes MS every week for Brutallus so we can run 2 feral tanks + Imp EA.

That said: even with all the considerations you raised, it's *still* a 115 DPS boost, and a DPS gain is a DPS gain. If your Imp EA rogue is bad it's possible that you'll lose the advantage, but with a little practice it's not really that hard to keep Imp EA up for all but the first 8 seconds or so of the fight (which is about what it takes to get Sunders up anyway). So I maintain that it is generally worth it to use Imp EA on any reasonably sustained fight that is not being tanked by a warrior.
#2992SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Towelette
Originally Posted by Goldengiff View Post
You don't ever use EA if there is a warrior tank, as imp EA will overwrite sunder stacks. Sunder/Devestate is a prot warrior's main source of threat. If you have bear/pally tanks, then by all means have your least-geared rogue do imp EA. Hell, our dual-warglaive rogue does Imp EA rotations on Brut some nights
Yes, I know it overwrites the Sunder. The entire point of my question was how much threat, if any, is lost from Devastating without the 5 stack of Sunders up due to Imp EA overwriting it.

Originally Posted by tetracycloide View Post
Rupture only scales with AP, not all gear, so least geared, in the general sense, does not necessarily mean least ruputre damage lost, in the absolute sense.

Imp EA dropping is a huge DPS loss for every physical damage dealer in the raid, poor rupture uptime is a loss of, at most, 100% rupture damage for one rogue.

Given the DPS losses from maintaining EA that scale with gear are small and mitigated by a change in cycle machanics that favors high gear levels priorities for Imp EA assignments should not be driven by gear but by skill level. The most skilled rogue, i.e. the rogue least likely to bungle the rotation, should be assigned with keeping it up.
All good points, thank you! And thanks for your explanations as well Aldrianna and songster.
#2993SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2 Hanos
Originally Posted by lubricious View Post
I have a question. I've noticed that lately many rogues are using mutilate for high-end content (by which I mean Sunwell).

I left mutilate behind after Karazhan, and have been combat swords ever since.
However now that I'm working on Sunwell (Just Kalecgos attempts so far), I'm wondering if all these rogues using a mutilate build in there know something I don't.

I have pretty good swords (Infamy/S2 quickblade), but I also have decent daggers (boundless agony/messenger of fate) so I don't think there's any reason as a non-human for me to prefer one build over the other from a weapons perspective at the moment.

Has mutilate at the t6 level finally caught up with combat swords?
I'd greatly appreciate input from someone else at the t6 level who may have experience with these builds.
I know I got a couple PM's when I was running around as Mutilate with the Sunwell Daggers (Twins and Kalecgos ones), about spec'ing Mutilate, but I would be curious if there is anyone else in a M'uru level guild that is actively raiding as mutilate, my experience was I could get close to the same DPS if I wasn't getting chained heroisms, but in a muti heroism situation I fell behind. In addition I was having to pay more attention to rotations and combo points and as a result wasn't able to help out as much with calls, group swaps etc.

My experience was that it was not an increase in DPS, if anything it was net even to a slight decrease and that is going from 100.2 DPS Sword to 108.1 DPS daggers, and it really didn't offer and advantages, and considering we are working on M'uru, the poison on target issue was more then a little annoying.
#2994SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2lubricious
Thanks, that's exactly the kind of information I needed.
#2995SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2bueller
Hello, i am a bit new to the whole theorycrafting and was wondering what exactly 3s/5r means.
Does it mean that you get 8 CP for a 5 point rupture and the next 3 point SnD while you have a 3 CP SnD running, or do you throw anything else in, so that rupture is not up permanently?
#2996SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Ricard
It means you build 3 combo points, cast Slice and Dice, build 5 combo points, cast Rupture, then build 3 combo points and refresh slice and dice, so on and so forth.
#2997SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Jojo_el_Mono
Originally Posted by Feanora View Post
As far as haste goes, some dirty math as to why hit is slightly better, point for point. Keep in mind haste and hit require the same amount of rating to increase the respective stat by 1%:

Assume you're taking 100 swings in 100 seconds, or a 1.0 attack speed, and you have 90% to hit at a base. Now, if you add 1% hit, you'll hit 91 times in that 100 seconds. If you add 1% haste, you'll swing 101 times in that 100 seconds, but still only hit 90% of them, which works out to 90.9 hits in the given time period. As you would expect from an ugly example like this, the values of haste and hit are very close by EP, with hit slightly ahead. The value of haste approaches that of hit as you approach the hitcap, and would surpass it if you ever managed to get 100% hit for whatever reason.
So, forgive me if this a foolish question, but I was discussing this very thing with my friend (who plays a hunter) just tonight, and we came up with the exact same math that is laid out in the quote. He then brought up the subject of how crit affects the math. Since hit and crit are on separate rolls on the attack table, neither affect the other. However, with haste, you are simply swinging faster... which means more rolls overall. So then, does haste actually end up adding more than hit does, due to critical strikes?

This is my friend's math. So, say you had 90% hit. Out of 100 swings you land 90 of them. So if you add 1% hit you go up to 91. If you add 1% haste, you go up to 90.9. But now thinking of crit... if you had say, 30% crit, and you treated each critical hit as two swings, you'd end up gaining around 1.17 swings instead of .9 from 1% of haste rating, while still only the 1 from hit. So, 1% haste is 91.17, and 1% hit is 91.

I feel though that I am missing something, since I've not heard of anything like this in regards to haste before, and I try to keep pretty updated on my roguecraft. Is this math correct, or is there a factor that my friend and I are missing here?
#2998SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Latito
Originally Posted by Jojo_el_Mono View Post
is there a factor that my friend and I are missing here?
Procs. It doesn't matter if you hit or if you crit, both will proc a WF / Sword Spec / Mongoose / DST / SoC / whatever. Also, current theorycrafting math indicates that PPM effects (such as Mongoose, DST, MotB, etc) are based off of hasted speed. That is to say, if you increase your haste, you will not increase the frequency of such procs. However, if you increase your hit, you have more landed attacks which are capable of proc'ing .. stuff.

From a strict "damage from auto attacks alone" sense, yes you are correct. Haste will add more than hit. However, since hit increases the frequency of procs and therefore uptime, it is *generally* a better stat, point for point.
#2999SourcePosted on <=2.0.0 Aldriana
At the risk of sounding like a bit of an ass: do you really think that these effects aren't modeled in painstaking detail in both spreadsheets?

In terms of a slightly more helpful answer: yes, crits increase the value of haste relative to hit. But glancing blows reduce the value of haste relative to the value of hit. And Sword Spec and Windfury count hit twice and haste only once in resolving their effects. And proc uptime of PPM effects is increased by hit and not haste.

Fundamentally: yes, the effect you describe exists. But there are many many others that aren't included by your logic; as such your analysis is incomplete.
#3000SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Highlander
Originally Posted by Rogar_Nox View Post
Sorry for the potential off-topic post, but this seems to be the most focused Rogue specific thread in existence.

I am looking for an addon that displays the current attck table for my Rogue based on the gear at the moment. There is a similar addon for tanks called "Tankpoints".


Anyone know of something similiar for us Rogues?

Thanks.
Try using Pawn.

Download here: Pawn | World of Warcraft Addons | Curse
or use WowAceUpdater.

Then look at the first post in this thread and use the weighting values that have been posted to create your own Pawn Sets.
#3001SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
bueller
Originally Posted by Ricard View Post
It means you build 3 combo points, cast Slice and Dice, build 5 combo points, cast Rupture, then build 3 combo points and refresh slice and dice, so on and so forth.


Which means Rupture is not constantly up, or do you actually manage to keep it going all the time?I have serious problems doing that with 3s/5r.




Also, i was wondering whether Swords do scale much better with raid buffs than daggers do.When i go (unbuffed) and attack the Ogre Spirits in Dire Maul with Daggers i usually do ~100 dps more than when i do the same with sword spec.
I am using a Shard of Azzinoth/Trackers Blade for Dagger Spec and BoI/BoS for Sword spec.
I am wondering this because my guild of course urges me to stay sword specced, i do understand that on trash, but on bosses i am not all too sure if its the right choice.
I have screenshots from Teronfights where i do about 400 dps less with Daggers than i do now with Swords.That time when i was using Daggers i had zero T6, a warrior in group and only BoM from paladins.
I was using Boundless Agony and WSC though and he is a low armor mob, but now i have 6 T6, had a warrior and enhancement shaman and BoK/BoM.
I am mostly doing 1500-1800 DPS sword specced and since we are moving towards Brutallus i am wondering if i would not indeed be better with Daggers, since i still do unbuffed better DPS using Daggers on those Ogre Spirits.

Last edited by bueller : 05/15/08 at 6:55 AM.
#3002SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2 Vulajin
No, 3s/5r will not sustain 100% Rupture uptime. 100% Rupture uptime isn't really a realistic goal for any cycle anyway, so don't concern yourself too much about it.

There are many problems trying to compare unbuffed DPS against a level 60 target with buffed DPS against a boss-level target. Suffice it to say that you will not achieve superior DPS to combat swords unless you're doing something wrong.
#3003SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Tornsoul
When I use AR - I often stumble on rupture still being applied and SnD still up but my energy stocking up to 100, in this situation is it better to dump a 5cp SnD (to renew) or do a evisc? (I have the 2 tier 4 bonus)

Also, When using blade flurry on AOE pulls (like MH trash) is it better to use evisc since you get it "twice" when it hits the other mob?

Yesterday I received the fists of fury set and respecced fists - Today I tried the DPS on the gordok spirits and over the course of ten minutes, I landed at 1003 DPS, thats 260 DPS more than the spreadsheet tells me I'm supposed to do, is that a sign of something good or is it just expectable?

(Armory shows skybreaker whip, I normally use SoC)
#3004SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2rhea
I usually time AR right before I use a 3-4 point SND, after that I do a quick 5 point rupture, get another 5 point eviscerate and still manage to refresh a 3-4 point SND, with some lucky procs it won't mess with my cycle any more than that.

When using BF on multiple mobs, of course eviscerate is better because it is double the dmg. Simply put crit evis is better than rupture.
#3005SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Tornsoul
Yeah, thats what I was thinking, but I use 1s/5r so for me its 1s and then what u said, managing to refresh a 1 point SND.
#3006SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Left
Originally Posted by lubricious View Post
I have a question. I've noticed that lately many rogues are using mutilate for high-end content (by which I mean Sunwell).

I left mutilate behind after Karazhan, and have been combat swords ever since.
However now that I'm working on Sunwell (Just Kalecgos attempts so far), I'm wondering if all these rogues using a mutilate build in there know something I don't.

I have pretty good swords (Infamy/S2 quickblade), but I also have decent daggers (boundless agony/messenger of fate) so I don't think there's any reason as a non-human for me to prefer one build over the other from a weapons perspective at the moment.

Has mutilate at the t6 level finally caught up with combat swords?
I'd greatly appreciate input from someone else at the t6 level who may have experience with these builds.
I'm in early T6, not late T6, so I don't have the advantage of full T6 gear to look at. However, I have been playing Mutilate recently because (a) I have better weapons for it, and (b) I enjoy it. It is competitive with CSwords, although it certainly does not beat them straight up. Here is what I see in the build:

Advantages
  • Quicker cycles
    It only takes a single attack to get fully back into your regular cycle, which means on interrupted fights it is easier to get into a rhythm again
  • More relaxed cycles
    Because of the insane combo point generation, you end up clipping SnD earlier and also getting a higher Rupture uptime. It's easier, in my opinion, to maintain 100% SnD uptime. Also, your primary move costs more and you have less overall energy, so you aren't mashing buttons as fast as in a combat build.
  • +20% boost to incoming heals
    This makes you a lot more survivable on heavy raid damage content. (For my level of progression, this means Naj'entus, Gorefiend, Azgalor, etc.)
  • +15% move speed
    This is useful for interrupted fights or moving between targets on trash, as well as for getting out of AOE.

Disadvantages
  • Not as much damage as CSwords
    Under pretty much all buff sets, Mutilate lags 3-5% behind Combat Swords in a pure DPS burn type fight. EG, if you can do 2100 DPS as Combat Swords, expect to do 2000 as Mutilate. (This difference fades a bit, though, in interrupted fights.)
  • Lack of cooldowns
    Combat has Adrenaline Rush and Blade Flurry; Mutilate has only Cold Blood. This makes it harder to turn on the burst with Mutilate.
  • No Blade Flurry
    This means AOE pulls allow your combat friends to get ahead. But trash is trash anyway, I suppose
  • Poison and positional requirements
    The poison thing isn't much of an issue anymore, as almost everything is poisonable (even nature-type elementals in BT, to my surprise). However, in interrupted fights, reapplying poison is annoying. Positional requirements are worse, though, especially for trash. I often find myself orbiting a target trying to find its back among all the other mobs and spell effects, losing out on yellow DPS in the meantime as I keep seeing "you must be behind your target". The positional thing can also throw you off for bosses that turn a lot to cast, or even for bosses where you have to occasionally move to the sides to get out of AOE.

At the moment, I'm sticking with Mutilate because I like the challenge of it, but if I get a Blade of Infamy I may very well respec back.
#3007SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Beleynn
Question regarding Combat spec'd gemming

So I was reading the guide concerning Combat-spec'd gemming, and had a question regarding it.

Here's what I have currently:

2 Rigid Lionseye (10 hit)
3 Smooth Lionseye (10 Crit)
1 Bright Crimson Spinel (20 AP)
1 Glinting Pyrestone (5 hit / 5 agi)
1 Crimson Sun (24 AP)
1 Stone of Blades (12 Crit)

Which gives me a total of 25 Hit rating, 2.03% crit rating, and 49 AP.

However, according to the guide, Smooth Lionseye are wrong (and Stone of Blades by extension) and Bright Crimson Spinel isn't mentioned either way. Thus, to follow the guide, I'd regem in a few places, and end up with 6 Rigid Lionseye and 3 Glinting Pyrestone.

I'd end up with a total 75 Hit Rating (putting me a mere 13 points from the cap of 363), .679% crit rating, and 15 AP. I understand the importance of hit rating, but I'd be losing 1.40% Crit and 34 AP.

Is this *actually* going to increase my DPS, with the loss of so much crit and AP?
#3008SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Evanaescent
Your entire question can be answered in the very first post of this thread. Take the EP values for your particular build and level of content and weigh the AEP total in gem set #1 versus gem set #2. You could also use a spreadsheet to calculate a potentially more exact answer to this question by switching gem sets there.

The short answer however, is yes, you will gain DPS by regemming properly.
#3009SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2lubricious
Originally Posted by Left View Post
I'm in early T6, not late T6, so I don't have the advantage of full T6 gear to look at. However, I have been playing Mutilate recently because (a) I have better weapons for it, and (b) I enjoy it. It is competitive with CSwords, although it certainly does not beat them straight up. Here is what I see in the build:

Advantages
  • Quicker cycles
    It only takes a single attack to get fully back into your regular cycle, which means on interrupted fights it is easier to get into a rhythm again
  • More relaxed cycles
    Because of the insane combo point generation, you end up clipping SnD earlier and also getting a higher Rupture uptime. It's easier, in my opinion, to maintain 100% SnD uptime. Also, your primary move costs more and you have less overall energy, so you aren't mashing buttons as fast as in a combat build.
  • +20% boost to incoming heals
    This makes you a lot more survivable on heavy raid damage content. (For my level of progression, this means Naj'entus, Gorefiend, Azgalor, etc.)
  • +15% move speed
    This is useful for interrupted fights or moving between targets on trash, as well as for getting out of AOE.

Disadvantages
  • Not as much damage as CSwords
    Under pretty much all buff sets, Mutilate lags 3-5% behind Combat Swords in a pure DPS burn type fight. EG, if you can do 2100 DPS as Combat Swords, expect to do 2000 as Mutilate. (This difference fades a bit, though, in interrupted fights.)
  • Lack of cooldowns
    Combat has Adrenaline Rush and Blade Flurry; Mutilate has only Cold Blood. This makes it harder to turn on the burst with Mutilate.
  • No Blade Flurry
    This means AOE pulls allow your combat friends to get ahead. But trash is trash anyway, I suppose
  • Poison and positional requirements
    The poison thing isn't much of an issue anymore, as almost everything is poisonable (even nature-type elementals in BT, to my surprise). However, in interrupted fights, reapplying poison is annoying. Positional requirements are worse, though, especially for trash. I often find myself orbiting a target trying to find its back among all the other mobs and spell effects, losing out on yellow DPS in the meantime as I keep seeing "you must be behind your target". The positional thing can also throw you off for bosses that turn a lot to cast, or even for bosses where you have to occasionally move to the sides to get out of AOE.

At the moment, I'm sticking with Mutilate because I like the challenge of it, but if I get a Blade of Infamy I may very well respec back.
Thanks for the information!
I'm sticking with combat swords, I've just seen so many WWS parses from Sunwell involving mutilate builds that I was getting a little paranoid that I'd missed something somewhere.
Apparently it's just the fun factor of using a different playstyle (Mutilate IS fun to play).

Originally Posted by Beleynn View Post
So I was reading the guide concerning Combat-spec'd gemming, and had a question regarding it.

Here's what I have currently:

2 Rigid Lionseye (10 hit)
3 Smooth Lionseye (10 Crit)
1 Bright Crimson Spinel (20 AP)
1 Glinting Pyrestone (5 hit / 5 agi)
1 Crimson Sun (24 AP)
1 Stone of Blades (12 Crit)

Which gives me a total of 25 Hit rating, 2.03% crit rating, and 49 AP.

However, according to the guide, Smooth Lionseye are wrong (and Stone of Blades by extension) and Bright Crimson Spinel isn't mentioned either way. Thus, to follow the guide, I'd regem in a few places, and end up with 6 Rigid Lionseye and 3 Glinting Pyrestone.

I'd end up with a total 75 Hit Rating (putting me a mere 13 points from the cap of 363), .679% crit rating, and 15 AP. I understand the importance of hit rating, but I'd be losing 1.40% Crit and 34 AP.

Is this *actually* going to increase my DPS, with the loss of so much crit and AP?
I took a look at your armory sheet, and if you are buying those gems with badges I'd skip regemming until you have the badge chest + legs. Those will give you a big DPS boost.

While the hit gems will give you the highest DPS gain on bosses right up to the cap, if you are concerned with your performance on trash, you might want to use glinting gems (hit/agi) to keep from going so close to the cap that you have over 100% hit on non-boss targets. Normally only damage on bosses is what really matters, but if your guild is ignorant and likes to judge you based on trash meters that may be an issue for you.

Also, on a side note: Scopes only increase damage on ranged attacks and are a waste of money.
#3010SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2path411
Anyone have the actual math supporting an improved Expose Armor rogue in raids? (Drop 2 points from vile poisons).

I know many guilds already use this for brutallus, with only a 1-2% personal loss to a rogue that simply replaces rupture with expose, you practically give your raid a second blood frenzy.

At the moment, the main concern is the TPS loss from devastate losing the extra damage. (I guess this is the main math that would be interesting)

Thanks in advance =)
#3011SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2lubricious
Originally Posted by path411 View Post
Anyone have the actual math supporting an improved Expose Armor rogue in raids? (Drop 2 points from vile poisons).

I know many guilds already use this for brutallus, with only a 1-2% personal loss to a rogue that simply replaces rupture with expose, you practically give your raid a second blood frenzy.

At the moment, the main concern is the TPS loss from devastate losing the extra damage. (I guess this is the main math that would be interesting)

Thanks in advance =)
I do believe that was just discussed a page or two back.
#3012SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2path411
ah sorry, I checked early a day or two ago =S shoulda rechecked before I posted.
#3013SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Beleynn
Originally Posted by lubricious View Post
I took a look at your armory sheet, and if you are buying those gems with badges I'd skip regemming until you have the badge chest + legs. Those will give you a big DPS boost.
I'm working towards the badge chest & legs now, and using cash from dailies (and badges from alts) for the gems, so regemming isn't a big deal I also have a yellow and an orange in the bank from Mag last week.

but if your guild is ignorant and likes to judge you based on trash meters
Fortunately, we aren't. Bosses are the only thing I'm concerned about. Not that it really matters to the question at hand, but for the record, I'm the officer in charge of posting and reviewing WWS reports.

At any rate, thanks for the advice, I'll regem ASAP.

As a side note, I would like an opinion on keeping a second set of gear for soloing - Is it worth gemming all the old Kara gear thats currently rotting in the bank for AP, and keeping it around for soloing, since the +Hit is wasted on basic mobs?
#3014SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Towelette
Originally Posted by Beleynn View Post
As a side note, I would like an opinion on keeping a second set of gear for soloing - Is it worth gemming all the old Kara gear thats currently rotting in the bank for AP, and keeping it around for soloing, since the +Hit is wasted on basic mobs?
Probably not. As your gear gets better and better, soloing really just becomes a joke. With only TK\SSC\Badge gear, I'm dropping daily quest mobs in a few seconds unless I get an unlucky string of noncrits. You'd probably be better off just swapping in a couple pieces of gear, like ZJ\Heroic\Badge AP trinket or the like. Regemming T4\KZ gear for AP is unlikely to give you all that noticeable of a change; gemming for Agility would still be superior to AP anyhow, particularly for a Dagger build soloing.

Of course, all my experience is as a SS build, so I may be misunderstanding something.
#3015SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Arindelest
Originally Posted by lubricious View Post
While the hit gems will give you the highest DPS gain on bosses right up to the cap, if you are concerned with your performance on trash, you might want to use glinting gems (hit/agi) to keep from going so close to the cap that you have over 100% hit on non-boss targets. Normally only damage on bosses is what really matters, but if your guild is ignorant and likes to judge you based on trash meters that may be an issue for you.
There's a fair case to make (and one that has been made before multiple times) that performance on trash does indeed make a difference. Considering you're likely to spend the majority of your raiding time on trash, gemming to stay under the cap for 71s and 72s (i.e., using Hit/Agi) may be worthwhile. And the minor DPS loss you get from gemming Hit/Agi as opposed to straight Hit on a boss is going to have a negligible impact, except perhaps on Brutallus. The argument is further strengthened if you consider dodge (defensive stats) to have some value.

Either way gemming Hit/Agi or Hit is fine, good arguments can be made for both sides.
#3016SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2 Aldriana
Also, some bosses have adds that are other than level 73, and being able to do good DPS on them strikes me as very much worthwhile. When doing Sunwell there's a very very strong case to be made that one should have a set of gear available that is not hitcapped on level 71s (the exact reasons for which I'm not allowed to discuss, but you can probably guess what I mean) even neglecting the trash considerations. Hence, my recommended approach is to wind up with hit right around that level (or perhaps even a bit lower to accommodate the level 70 hit cap), as it really doesn't cost you that much DPS. And, frankly, if you're really worried about the small amount of DPS you lose from not being near the hit cap on boss-level mobs, you can always carry around multiple copies of some pieces of gear with different gems in them - with set pieces dropping 3/week, it really isn't that hard to get multiple copies of some of them.
#3017SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
Jojo_el_Mono
Originally Posted by Latito View Post
Procs. It doesn't matter if you hit or if you crit, both will proc a WF / Sword Spec / Mongoose / DST / SoC / whatever. Also, current theorycrafting math indicates that PPM effects (such as Mongoose, DST, MotB, etc) are based off of hasted speed. That is to say, if you increase your haste, you will not increase the frequency of such procs. However, if you increase your hit, you have more landed attacks which are capable of proc'ing .. stuff.

From a strict "damage from auto attacks alone" sense, yes you are correct. Haste will add more than hit. However, since hit increases the frequency of procs and therefore uptime, it is *generally* a better stat, point for point.
I see. That makes quite a bit of sense, and I figured we were missing something like that. Thank you

Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
At the risk of sounding like a bit of an ass: do you really think that these effects aren't modeled in painstaking detail in both spreadsheets?

In terms of a slightly more helpful answer: yes, crits increase the value of haste relative to hit. But glancing blows reduce the value of haste relative to the value of hit. And Sword Spec and Windfury count hit twice and haste only once in resolving their effects. And proc uptime of PPM effects is increased by hit and not haste.

Fundamentally: yes, the effect you describe exists. But there are many many others that aren't included by your logic; as such your analysis is incomplete.
A little bit harsh, but I don't mind :3. In any case, I did figure that this had all been taken into account, checked, and rechecked many times for the spreadsheets and such, but I was curious as to what the factor was that we were missing. Also it is hard to convince my friend that there is something else at work by just saying "well according to the spreadsheet...", though I do myself put a good deal of trust into it. Being able to go back to him and say "This is why" helps to get him to shut up though :P.

Again, much thanks

Last edited by Jojo_el_Mono : 05/15/08 at 3:01 PM.
#3018SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2tetracycloide
"4.Xs/5r" describes a cycle where you proactively selected the number of CP you spend on a slice and dice based on your current level of energy with the goal of averaging "4.X" CP per SnD.

If the sheet said 5s/5r and then switched to 3s/5r I would go with 3s/5r unless you have trouble keeping SnD up 100% of the time in which case I would stick with 5s/5r. If you unhide the relevent sheets you can compare the DPS directly between the two cycles and I'm betting it's +/-5DPS at most.
#3019SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Coldric
Possible Mutilate/combat spec change

Here is what i think would be best for Mutilate/combat build. If your gonna strictly just raid and use mutilate you don't need all the fancy stuff for example Fleet footed. You had 5 points in Vile Poisons which in most cases in raids mostly all bosses are immune to poison damage. I may only raid kara gruuls and Mags. I am currently specced Hemo for pvp. I have been specced Mut in the past. Blizzard has been trying to address the situation with poisons on bosses. On most cases I found Wound healing and/or mind numbing poisons worked on raiding bosses.

Talent Calculator - World of Warcraft

To compensate for lose of FF you could put speed enchant on boots. Also for sockets and enchants I would go agility or crit over hit.

If someone could test this build in higher end raiding instances please do. If my information is incorrect on the poisons I apologize.
#3020SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Left
Originally Posted by Coldric View Post
...

in most cases in raids mostly all bosses are immune to poison damage.

...

On most cases I found Wound healing and/or mind numbing poisons worked on raiding bosses.

...
Well, the top one is total nonsense. Every boss except a very select few is susceptible to Deadly Poison and Instant Poison. Since Deadly is a debuff, it counts for Mutilate. Instant does not.

The second one is half nonsense. Most bosses aren't immune to Wound Poison, but Deadly is a better choice unless you need the anti-healing component. On the other hand, I know of no bosses at all who are susceptible to Mind Numbing Poison, annoying as that is.

There is an excellent discussion in the Mutilate Raid DPS thread on the merits of the various poison talents. The general conclusion is the Improved and Vile are mostly interchangeable, while Master Poisoner is inferior. The exact VP/IP split depends on your offhand speed. Read the linked post for more info.

So, in summary, yes, please check further next time before posting invalid information.
#3021SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2tetracycloide
In raids almost nothing is immune to poison damage, vile poisons is a significant DPS talent for both mutilate AND combat speced rogues.

Fleet Footed is strictly better than Cat's Swiftness, 6 addtional dexterity on the boot enchant on top of an addtional chance to resist snare mechannics will always be better for DPS than Cat's Swiftness alone. There really is nowhere in the assassination tree you can move these points to that will completely compensate for the loss of 6 dexterity by switching boot enchants much less the potential DPS gain from resisting a snare attempt.
#3022SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Xaoc
Originally Posted by Left View Post
...On the other hand, I know of no bosses at all who are susceptible to Mind Numbing Poison, annoying as that is...
Priest add for Karathress, priest add for Council, ROS P2 as well.
#3023SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Ricard
The listed Mutilate spec is wrong, though, due to the fact that it hasn't grabbed Puncturing Wounds. Though, Vulajin isn't updating this thread anymore, as I understand it, as he's working on the Theorycrafting Think tank.
#3024SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2 Vulajin
That's correct. The TTT article will have the correct spec.
#3025SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Oscarvil
Originally Posted by Ricard View Post
The listed Mutilate spec is wrong, though, due to the fact that it hasn't grabbed Puncturing Wounds. Though, Vulajin isn't updating this thread anymore, as I understand it, as he's working on the Theorycrafting Think tank.
I made that spec on one of the first pages... As you can see from the date it was long before Imp Backstab was changed to Puncturing wounds. It was also before the discussion about the optimal distribution of poison talents based on offhand speed. These should be included in the new one and I'm sure V will take care of it.

Fake edit: oh snap.
#3026SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2forphium
Perhaps it has been discussed ad nauseam at some point when I was not paying attention, but I was wondering if the rogue community had proposed any change to (for instance) Dagger Specialization in order to make combat daggers more viable, as I seem to be cursed to having 10,000 daggers in my inventory.
I took a look at the item values proposed on WoWwiki for crit rating and armor penetration, and 5% crit at 70 works out to 740 armor pen, then used Aldriana's spreadsheet to play around with high-end gear. I set it at a standard 15/41/5 combat daggers build, though I actually removed the 5 points from Dagger Spec as I wanted to see the crit changed to armor pen, and then lowered the boss armor value by 740. I found combat daggers to end-up very competitive with combat swords after this change, and I think this could definetly be a viable change.

I hope the above was legible, logical and reasonably complete; I suffer from an inability to express myself much of the time.
#3027SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Unjulus
I've received two set piece T6 and the BoS recently, so my combat potencey regen has increased. The spreadsheet has shown my cycle needs to be "3s/5r." I find myself attempting to run this and ending up with rupture and s'n'd on the same timer after one rotation. Or in the other scenario, my s'n'd runs out and I have 4-5 combo points built up. I usually spend these on s'n'd.

I've read that the '3s/5r' rotation is nothing to keep to, and is just a suggestion/theory of an optimal DPS cycle. However, I am curious as to how to prevent this/recover from A). Not keeping rupture up, or B). Having the timers run equally.
#3028SourcePosted on <=2.0.0 Vulajin
Somehow, on the past two pages there have now been three separate questions all confused about not being able to maintain 100% Rupture uptime. Was there something unclear in the first post that leads people to believe that 100% Rupture uptime is necessary or even possible? I'd genuinely like to know, so that if there is something misleading, I can fix it.

To answer your question, you cannot keep 100% Rupture uptime and shouldn't be worrying about. Rupture will fall a lot, the point of the cycle is to maximize your Rupture uptime as much as possible within the limitation of keeping Slice up 100% of the time. The more important question, regardless of cycle, is whether you are allowing Slice and Dice to fall off. If you are, then no amount of Rupture uptime gain will save you.

Last edited by Vulajin : Yesterday at 12:55 AM.
#3029SourcePosted on <=2.0.0 Aldriana
With 3s5r, your expected rupture uptime is about 65%. It won't up be up all the time. It's not supposed to be up all the time. SnD should never drop, and you should be able to get fairly regular ruptures up too. That's all the cycle is trying to do.
#3030SourcePosted on <=2.0.0glowacks
Originally Posted by Vulajin View Post
The more important question, regardless of cycle, is whether you are allowing Slice and Dice to fall off. If you are, then no amount of Rupture uptime gain will save you.
While I'm probably just being pedantic on this point, it is possible in theory to lose a slight amount of SnD uptime in order to gain a large amount of Rupture time. In fact, the DPS spreadsheet might suggest a cycle for combat with SnD uptime just under 100% in order to increase the Rupture uptime by some significant amount. However, it is true that as combat one's goal should be to keep SnD up at all times. Worrying about Rupture uptime is really not productive; it's just the best way to use your combo points once you've managed to keep up SnD and contributes a rather marginal amount of DPS in comparison.
#3031SourcePosted on <=2.0.0 Aldriana
There do exists specs where dropping SnD makes sense. They are few and far between, and definitely do not include Combat Potency. As a rule of thumb, "never let SnD drop" is a pretty good one. In terms of the rest of the story... well, I'm working on an answer for that. But think of it this way: SnD typically gives 400+ DPS while it's up. Rupture is around 150 DPS while it's up. Each CP spent on SnD gives over 4 seconds uptime. Each CP spent on Rupture gives 2 seconds uptime. As such, it is extremely uncommon that worrying about rupture uptime matters at all, in comparison to the benefits of keeping SnD up.
#3032SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Balkoth
Maybe this will help:

Your main damaging attack is Sinister Strike/Hemorrhage. Your main finisher is Slice and Dice. However, you end up with combo points that aren't needed to maintain SnD. So you have two options. The first is to constantly refresh SnD early and waste the combo points, which seems silly. The second is to use the combo points on another finish AS THEY ARE AVAILABLE in an attempt to make some use out of them.

Enter Rupture. Rupture is NOT a primary ability. It is NOT the purpose behind building combo points. It is merely an outlet for the spare points you have. This is why 2t4 is not as powerful as people think, it merely improves the SECONDARY damage of Rupture. Don't worry about Rupture uptime. You aren't a warlock or shadow priest. You're a rogue and your main yellow damage is Sinister Strike or Hemorrhage. You use Rupture when you have points to spare after ensuring the uptime of SnD.
#3033SourcePosted on <=2.0.0neekgan
A bit off topic and sorry for that but I would like some enlightenment, I am trying to convince our melee group leader that placing one of the rogues out of the melee group in order to put there a BM hunter is wrong and I am looking some solid facts to back it up. I did some research on the forums but I didn’t find anything really strong that could convince him.

Most people just say that warrior/enh shaman/rogue/rogue/feral is one of the best if not the best melee group but most of the times the second rogue in our raids gets dumped into a random group because the BM hunter gets all whiny how he loses DPS and how the melee group needs his Ferocious Inspiration buff.
#3034SourcePosted on <=2.0.0missyh
I'm just looking a way to improve my dps, so here we go.

According to rogue spreadsheet I should go with 3,5s/5r cycle. But with that I cant keep rupture running all the time, altho I can keep SnD running. So my point is that should I try to find a cycle where I can keep both SnD and rupture running at same time? I'd guess it would be something like 1s/3r.
#3035SourcePosted on <=2.0.0patcherke
Originally Posted by missyh View Post
I'm just looking a way to improve my dps, so here we go.

According to rogue spreadsheet I should go with 3,5s/5r cycle. But with that I cant keep rupture running all the time, altho I can keep SnD running. So my point is that should I try to find a cycle where I can keep both SnD and rupture running at same time? I'd guess it would be something like 1s/3r.
Look back a few posts (3033 for example).

It is no necessity to keep Rupture up all the time to maximize your DPS. It is only a way to spend 'unneeded' combopoints.
A 5 point rupture does more damage than a 3 point.
But I guess if the DPS sheet points you towards a 4s5r cycle, the DPS you get with this will be higher than with a 1s3r cycle, no matter if you keep rupture up for 100% or not. Slice and Dice up for 100% , that is what matters.

The margin between 1s3r and 4s5r can however be small (don't know exactly how much), and it can be better to get to a 1s3r cycle on fights where you cannot get 100% on target.( 1s3r is i.m.o far more easy to keep up than a 4s5r cycle.)

The DPS sheet should also be taken with a grain of salt as well : it calculates a theorethical maximum (I.e when you can maintain the cycles, and have 100% uptime, not dealing with adds, etc.)
As far as I know, there is no way to achieve this maximum. At least I never succeeded to get even near that maximum.
But it does give you a nice comparison of weapons/gear, and their capabilities, as well as a comparison between different cycles that are used, and can calculate an 'optimal' cycle. Whether this cycle can be maintained every time however, is an other discussion and depends on the fight you are doing.

So you might end up with more DPS on that 1s3r cycle, depending on the fight.
WoW is not a game where you act like a robot (i.e. always do the same thing over and over again)
Sometimes you have to adapt to the situation.
My DPS for example is higher in SSC then it is in TK(difference sometimes around 200 dps), because in TK, a lot of mobs use abilities that are more dangeous for melee, and you have to be more careful as a melee, and it is more difficult to maintain cycles there.
If you take the DPS-sheet's word for true, the DPS in TK and and SSC should be exactly the same, which isn't the case of course.
#3036SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Evanaescent
Originally Posted by neekgan View Post
A bit off topic and sorry for that but I would like some enlightenment, I am trying to convince our melee group leader that placing one of the rogues out of the melee group in order to put there a BM hunter is wrong and I am looking some solid facts to back it up. I did some research on the forums but I didn’t find anything really strong that could convince him.

Most people just say that warrior/enh shaman/rogue/rogue/feral is one of the best if not the best melee group but most of the times the second rogue in our raids gets dumped into a random group because the BM hunter gets all whiny how he loses DPS and how the melee group needs his Ferocious Inspiration buff.
You have two problems here. First, you need to somehow convince your raid leader of the blindingly obvious fact that an enhancement shaman is THE greatest gain to rogue dps in the game. Secondly, you're far better off taking that feral, BM hunter, and throwing them in their own group with a resto shaman and any other hunters you have in your raid. Play around with the spreadsheets, and try to emphasize to your raid leader just how much that other rogue is losing by not having a shaman. With the space freed up in your 'proper' melee group, I'd try to get a ret paladin or another rogue in there, depending on your level of progression or guild/raid composition.

In my experience, while it doesn't necessarily have a greater mathematical impact, you have greater success in these kinds of situations where you can give and take. Even if you present hard numbers as for why replacing the hunter with the rogue would be better, the human nature of things probably suggest that if you do that as well as comment that you could boost his and the other hunters DPS by giving up the feral druid do them, they'd probably be more likely to try it out.
#3037SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Left
Originally Posted by Evanaescent View Post
You have two problems here. First, you need to somehow convince your raid leader of the blindingly obvious fact that an enhancement shaman is THE greatest gain to rogue dps in the game. Secondly, you're far better off taking that feral, BM hunter, and throwing them in their own group with a resto shaman and any other hunters you have in your raid. Play around with the spreadsheets, and try to emphasize to your raid leader just how much that other rogue is losing by not having a shaman. With the space freed up in your 'proper' melee group, I'd try to get a ret paladin or another rogue in there, depending on your level of progression or guild/raid composition.
Also, the BM Hunter may not realize it, but he is not getting any benefit from that warrior or shaman (unless the shaman twists). The only benefit he gets is from the feral, but he could get that benefit in another group just as easily. The boost that the BM hunter gives to the melee is minimal, at best, and is certainly not worth the DPS loss of moving a rogue out of the melee group.

In this case, the best option is to either (a) stick the BM hunter in another group with the feral (or another feral) where he can get GoA from a resto shaman, or (b) stick the BM hunter in a caster group, eg with mages/shadowpriests/warlocks, so that he can give his 3% DPS boost to them.

Last edited by Left : Yesterday at 9:35 AM. Reason: Grammar! Gah.
#3038SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Snus
Originally Posted by Evanaescent View Post
I'd try to get a ret paladin or another rogue in there, depending on your level of progression or guild/raid composition.
While we are on the topic of melee group composition, at what point in progression is it right to go from enh shaman/warrior/rogue x3 to replacing the third rogue with a ret paladin? I recently lost my raid spot, and was wondering if any had found this "new" group composition to be more rDPS. Basically, I am wondering if I have a mathematical chance to get my spot back or if other guilds have actually adopted this composition effectively.

Edit: "We cannot discuss this issue at this time" is a fine response.

Last edited by Snus : Yesterday at 10:25 AM. Reason: fix quote
#3039SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Wickedchild
If I recall correctly, a 3rd rogue in the melee group provides more rDPS than a ret-pally, provided the ret-pally still comes on the raid but in a different group, ranged dps I believe.
#3040SourcePosted on <=2.0.0vyedma
If the ret pally doesn't get WF it's basically a wasted raid spot from a rdps standpoint.
#3041SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Left
Yes, there was some discussion of the rogue vs. ret pally issue a few pages back, with the conclusion that if you have both in the raid it's mostly a wash which is in what group. Putting the rogue in the melee group gives slightly better DPS than putting the paladin there, but it's like 30 DPS.

However, if you are straight up replacing a rogue with a ret pally, you gain a significant amount of rDPS (not to mention increased mana regen and healing from judgments of Wisdom and Light, plus more blessings).

The bulk of the work was done in another thread: http://elitistjerks.com/733943-post3860.html

Originally Posted by vyedma View Post
If the ret pally doesn't get WF it's basically a wasted raid spot from a rdps standpoint.
At end game, the same could pretty much be said for a rogue. You might as well bring a warlock or a mage instead.

Last edited by Left : Yesterday at 11:43 AM.
#3042SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Balkoth
Originally Posted by patcherke View Post
The DPS sheet should also be taken with a grain of salt as well : it calculates a theorethical maximum (I.e when you can maintain the cycles, and have 100% uptime, not dealing with adds, etc.)
As far as I know, there is no way to achieve this maximum. At least I never succeeded to get even near that maximum.
But it does give you a nice comparison of weapons/gear, and their capabilities, as well as a comparison between different cycles that are used, and can calculate an 'optimal' cycle. Whether this cycle can be maintained every time however, is an other discussion and depends on the fight you are doing.
Tidewalker, Gorefiend, Anetheron if you don't get slept/don't get an infernal on you, Azgalor if you can stand in the Rain of Fire, and Brutallus all can give the theoretical maximum. But yes, in general, your DPS will be lower due to interruptions.
#3043SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Seleli
I tried a couple of searches on this topic and didn't find anything, so please excuse me if it's been answered before.

My guild is entering T5 content, with our first attempts on Hydross and Lurker ~12 hours ago. My question is about Hydross, and poison usage on weapons. I happened to be lucky enough to have Windfury for the fight (10+ melee DPS, and *1* shaman in the whole raid, quite a few went without), so I was using WF/IP. I know poisons make up a fairly small portion of our DPS, but I'd still like to maximize the best I can.

Is it safe to use Deadly Poison? Being a DoT that I can't "stop using," I was worried about possible aggro when he switches forms and drops aggro. From looking at recount, it seems like he's immune to Instant Poison in Nature form, so I'm guessing he would be immune to DP as well... but will he slough off the debuff when he ditches aggro, or is there still a chance he could take a tick and aggro me right as he's aggro-wiping?

If DP is a no-no, and WF is not available, then double IP seems the route to go... or is there something special you recommend for this fight? Our strat involved keeping him in nature form longer than frost, thus meaning poisons are getting less than 1/2 of their full effect. If there's something else that's marginally worse than poisons in most cases, it may be better overall for this fight.

Just as a note, we managed to down Hydross, so this info isn't going to make or break us, it's just knowledge for future runs.
#3044SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Feist-Mok
Just run across the line ahead of your tank (and, by extension, ahead of hydross) even if he does aggro from a dot tick then you won't cause a transition and thus not wipe anything. I havent done the fight since he became poisonable to know whether it stays on, but given the mechanics of the transition, if you're smart it shouldn't matter.
#3045SourcePosted on <=2.0.0lubricious
You won't pull aggro from a poison tick if your tanks are doing their jobs at all, as the amount of threat should be insignificant. However you can use an Adamantite Sharpening Stone if you are having poison issues. They add +12 weapon damage and 14 crit on the weapon, and they cost very little.
#3046SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Elabama
Hydross

Actually, after he switches phases he becomes immune to poisons so you wouldn't have to worry about the ticks after transition.
#3051SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Jagiya
I've been fiddling around with the Rogue spreadsheet a bit and run into a speedbump. I have a question. But first, a few facts:

- I have T4 Helm, but I use Grimgrin Faceguard with 3x Delicate Living Ruby instead.
- I have T4 Gloves, I use them.
- I have T4 Legs, I use them. I intend on replacing them with Trousers of the Scryers' Retainer when I get ~30 more badges.

So currently, I'm maintaining my 2pc T4 bonus via Legs and Gloves. The Legs will soon be replaced, and I'll be losing the set bonus. Is it worth putting on the T4 Helm rather than Grimgrin Faceguard to maintain the 2pc T4 bonus? In my mind, it's not worth it, but the potential damage increase from RED is attractive. Just looking to get a few peoples' opinions to be sure. Alternatively, if Grips of Damnation drop from Reliquary this week, I'll be taking those. Again, is it worth losing the 2pc bonus, or should I use the Helm/Legs combo?

Note that my gear selection is very limited as I'm guild Main Tank - the Rogue is just my alt and there are only a few bosses I can bring him along to each week.

Armory Link:
Armory Lite for Veevee of Blackrock
(Ignore the spec, we had no Warrior for a ZA Bear run so I specced Imp. EA.)
#3052SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2 Vulajin
Originally Posted by Jagiya View Post
I've been fiddling around with the Rogue spreadsheet a bit and run into a speedbump. I have a question. But first, a few facts:

- I have T4 Helm, but I use Grimgrin Faceguard with 3x Delicate Living Ruby instead.
- I have T4 Gloves, I use them.
- I have T4 Legs, I use them. I intend on replacing them with Trousers of the Scryers' Retainer when I get ~30 more badges.

So currently, I'm maintaining my 2pc T4 bonus via Legs and Gloves. The Legs will soon be replaced, and I'll be losing the set bonus. Is it worth putting on the T4 Helm rather than Grimgrin Faceguard to maintain the 2pc T4 bonus? In my mind, it's not worth it, but the potential damage increase from RED is attractive. Just looking to get a few peoples' opinions to be sure. Alternatively, if Grips of Damnation drop from Reliquary this week, I'll be taking those. Again, is it worth losing the 2pc bonus, or should I use the Helm/Legs combo?

Note that my gear selection is very limited as I'm guild Main Tank - the Rogue is just my alt and there are only a few bosses I can bring him along to each week.

Armory Link:
Armory Lite for Veevee of Blackrock
(Ignore the spec, we had no Warrior for a ZA Bear run so I specced Imp. EA.)
See my user title. There's your opinion, hope it helps.
#3053SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2 Aldriana
Originally Posted by Biarch View Post


have found personally since i often dont get WF due to sometime low melee numbers that i am quite often top or at least up in top 3
Well, it depends somewhat on gear level and what you're getting instead, but, for reference: my guild usually runs three rogues on Brutallus, two of which are in the melee group (with enhancement shaman, fury warrior, and ret pally) and the third gets thrown in with the hunters (with GoA and a couple righteous furies). Those in the melee group are usually in the top 3 damage dealers; the one in the hunter group tends to be only barely in the top 10. So, like, if you're still getting battle shout and leader of the pack or some such, I can still see performing pretty well; but if you're running in, like, a hunter group and still beating casters and hunters, this is a sign that the rest of your DPSers are doing something very very wrong.
#3054SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Jagiya
Sorry, I was confused.
Is the overall DPS calculation inclusive of the 2pc T4 bonus? Or do I add that value to my final result?
I notice the Approximate Cycle updates to reflect 2pc T4 so I wasn't entirely sure.
Regardless, thanks for the great spreadsheet. It's already "opened my eyes" to alot of potential DPS increases I had been neglecting.
#3055SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Professor Hurt
Set bonuses are included in the DPS calculations.
#3056SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
Biarch
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
Well, it depends somewhat on gear level and what you're getting instead, but, for reference: my guild usually runs three rogues on Brutallus, two of which are in the melee group (with enhancement shaman, fury warrior, and ret pally) and the third gets thrown in with the hunters (with GoA and a couple righteous furies). Those in the melee group are usually in the top 3 damage dealers; the one in the hunter group tends to be only barely in the top 10. So, like, if you're still getting battle shout and leader of the pack or some such, I can still see performing pretty well; but if you're running in, like, a hunter group and still beating casters and hunters, this is a sign that the rest of your DPSers are doing something very very wrong.
Typical makeup if we are low on melee has been in the past

2 rogue/war/sham/hunt or rogue/war/sham/2xhunt with GOA/STR/BS dont have a raiding feral druid so no lop

recently we have had a few extra melee so last 2 raid we ran 3xrogue/sham/war with the hunter of in a group with another shammie

Had Rogue/Shaman/Warrior/Hunter/Hunter the other night and took out top 4 spots and 6th spot on one of the bosses in MH cant memba atm think was 3rd.

note we are not in sunwell but 4/5 MH and only 1 week in bt for the first 2 so obviously not as far along as you.

Last edited by Biarch : 05/19/08 at 2:21 AM.
#3057SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Jagiya
Originally Posted by Professor Hurt View Post
Set bonuses are included in the DPS calculations.
Thank you. <3
#3058SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Biarch
Originally Posted by Biarch View Post
Had Rogue/Shaman/Warrior/Hunter/Hunter the other night and took out top 4 spots and 6th spot on one of the bosses in MH cant memba atm think was 3rd.
was second boss sorry - Wow Web Stats
#3059SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Capek
boss debuff addon

Is anyone aware of an addon that can be used to build a list of buff/debuffs on the player/boss respectively?
I'd like to build a 'checklist' in order to see that everyone is doing what they should be doing to ensure DPS is being maximised.
I appreciate that Elekk Buff Bars comes very close to satisfying this request but I'm really seeking something that helps me see that everyone is doing what they should be doing (which I find tricky in the 'heat of battle'). Ultimately I'd like to set specifications for what 'optimal' buff/debuffing is in a given raid group and then have the addon notify me when the parameters are not being satisfied.

On the subject of addons, is there one that helps synergise drum rotations or even just shows me when other party members last used their drums?
#3060SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Seleli
From a little testing with my gear in the Gear spreadsheet, GoA + IP is ~30 DPS lower than WF. At your gear level, it may even be more than that. That being said, I think the general knowledge is 1 DPS war is enough to make Windfury better than GoA, escpecialy with a rogue there. Might be something to discuss with your shaman and/or raid leader.


Capek: I beleive RBM (an Ace addon, I think it's a form of Boss Mods), has a drum watch plugin that should help with the drums, and may be able to help with some of the other features you want, though I haven't tested it myself.
#3061SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2koaschten
Originally Posted by Capek View Post
Is anyone aware of an addon that can be used to build a list of buff/debuffs on the player/boss respectively?
I'd like to build a 'checklist' in order to see that everyone is doing what they should be doing to ensure DPS is being maximised.
I appreciate that Elekk Buff Bars comes very close to satisfying this request but I'm really seeking something that helps me see that everyone is doing what they should be doing (which I find tricky in the 'heat of battle'). Ultimately I'd like to set specifications for what 'optimal' buff/debuffing is in a given raid group and then have the addon notify me when the parameters are not being satisfied.

On the subject of addons, is there one that helps synergise drum rotations or even just shows me when other party members last used their drums?
http://files.wowace.com/Demon/Demon-r54777.53.zip
#3062SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
Primalr
Originally Posted by Jagiya View Post
I've been fiddling around with the Rogue spreadsheet a bit and run into a speedbump. I have a question. But first, a few facts:

- I have T4 Helm, but I use Grimgrin Faceguard with 3x Delicate Living Ruby instead.
- I have T4 Gloves, I use them.
- I have T4 Legs, I use them. I intend on replacing them with Trousers of the Scryers' Retainer when I get ~30 more badges.

So currently, I'm maintaining my 2pc T4 bonus via Legs and Gloves. The Legs will soon be replaced, and I'll be losing the set bonus. Is it worth putting on the T4 Helm rather than Grimgrin Faceguard to maintain the 2pc T4 bonus? In my mind, it's not worth it, but the potential damage increase from RED is attractive. Just looking to get a few peoples' opinions to be sure. Alternatively, if Grips of Damnation drop from Reliquary this week, I'll be taking those. Again, is it worth losing the 2pc bonus, or should I use the Helm/Legs combo?

Note that my gear selection is very limited as I'm guild Main Tank - the Rogue is just my alt and there are only a few bosses I can bring him along to each week.

Armory Link:
Armory Lite for Veevee of Blackrock
(Ignore the spec, we had no Warrior for a ZA Bear run so I specced Imp. EA.)
Except for the obvious answer: Consult the spreadsheet, my advice would be to keep 2p T4 until you get 2p T6. It allows you to have a 1s/5r rotation which is very nice.


A question to theorycraft junkies:
Has anyone made any calcs about the difference between using 4x Drums of battle in row, compared to using 2x Drums of Battle + 2x Drums of War together?

Any another one:
Lately I've been starting to save energy (without dropping my cycle or capping energy ofc), to unleash it when I have many dmg-increasing temporary item-buffs active (such as hyjal ring, warp spring coil, mongoose). The way I do this is by looking at the average dmg calculated on my tooltip through an addon. But it's kind of an icky way to do it, and ideas on a better way to do it would be appreciated. Would also be cool to see some napkin math on how much dps could potentially be increased this way.

Last edited by Primalr : 05/19/08 at 10:25 AM.
#3063SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2sveno
Originally Posted by Capek View Post
Is anyone aware of an addon that can be used to build a list of buff/debuffs on the player/boss respectively?
I'd like to build a 'checklist' in order to see that everyone is doing what they should be doing to ensure DPS is being maximised.
I appreciate that Elekk Buff Bars comes very close to satisfying this request but I'm really seeking something that helps me see that everyone is doing what they should be doing (which I find tricky in the 'heat of battle'). Ultimately I'd like to set specifications for what 'optimal' buff/debuffing is in a given raid group and then have the addon notify me when the parameters are not being satisfied.

On the subject of addons, is there one that helps synergise drum rotations or even just shows me when other party members last used their drums?
#Showtooltip
/p Using Drums of Battle
/use Drums of Battle
/in 25 /p My Drums will run out in 5 secs
/in 115 /p My drums will be ready in 5 secs
Is an excellent party macro for drums. Only requires that you look at your party window.
#3064SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Capek
Thanks Seleli and Koaschten for your help. Much appreciated. I'll be continuing discussion of it in the UI and addons section so as not to get off topic.
#3065SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2folderol
Originally Posted by Primalr View Post
Lately I've been starting to save energy (without dropping my cycle or capping energy ofc), to unleash it when I have many dmg-increasing temporary item-buffs active (such as hyjal ring, warp spring coil, mongoose). The way I do this is by looking at the average dmg calculated on my tooltip through an addon. But it's kind of an icky way to do it, and ideas on a better way to do it would be appreciated. Would also be cool to see some napkin math on how much dps could potentially be increased this way.
Simply use a timer add-on which allows you to customize the buffs it tracks such as ClassTimer.
I usually configure it to visualize the procs from mongoose, WSC and DST.
#3066SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2 Aldriana
Originally Posted by Primalr View Post
A question to theorycraft junkies:
Has anyone made any calcs about the difference between using 4x Drums of battle in row, compared to using 2x Drums of Battle + 2x Drums of War together?

Any another one:
Lately I've been starting to save energy (without dropping my cycle or capping energy ofc), to unleash it when I have many dmg-increasing temporary item-buffs active (such as hyjal ring, warp spring coil, mongoose). The way I do this is by looking at the average dmg calculated on my tooltip through an addon. But it's kind of an icky way to do it, and ideas on a better way to do it would be appreciated. Would also be cool to see some napkin math on how much dps could potentially be increased this way.
Regarding the first one: I think you're vastly overestimating the value of stacking procs. If Drums of Battle and Drums of War were otherwise comparable, what you describe would make sense. But they're not - Drums of Battle are about 3 times better than Drums of War, and while stacking the effects will improve Drums of War somewhat, it's going to be nowhere remotely close to a factor of 3 improvement. So Drums of War are clearly superior.

Regarding the second one: Cooldown stacking of this sort certainly can increase DPS. It just doesn't increase it by very much. So, for instance: with my gear and the default buffs in the Gear sheet, I do right around 2k DPS. If I artificially force it to give me an extra 4% crit and 160 AP on specials - which is roughly consistant with every single SS performed occuring with two mongoose procs up (which is clearly not possible - I gain a grand total of 33 DPS by so doing. Realistically, I suspect one would be lucky to get a quarter of that benefit. So we're talking DPS improvements on the half-a-percent type level. Does that mean it's not worth doing? Not at all. It's a small effect, but it's still worth doing. It's just that one should have reasonable expectations on how much it matters, and thus on how much risk it's worth incorporating into your cycle to do - one could very easily screw up and let your energy cap out by so doing, which kills any advantage you gained outright.
#3067SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2 Hanos
Originally Posted by neekgan View Post
A bit off topic and sorry for that but I would like some enlightenment, I am trying to convince our melee group leader that placing one of the rogues out of the melee group in order to put there a BM hunter is wrong and I am looking some solid facts to back it up. I did some research on the forums but I didn’t find anything really strong that could convince him.

Most people just say that warrior/enh shaman/rogue/rogue/feral is one of the best if not the best melee group but most of the times the second rogue in our raids gets dumped into a random group because the BM hunter gets all whiny how he loses DPS and how the melee group needs his Ferocious Inspiration buff.
Some bullet points to take to your raid leader:
-Battle Shout only affects MELEE Attack Power (so the hunter gets nothing from being in a group with a warrior)
-Unleash Rage only affects MELEE Attack Power (so the hunter gets nothing from being in a group with an Enhancement Shaman).
-Strength of Earth doesn't do much at all for a hunter if anything

Basically you normal malee synergy group is:
-DPS Warrior - Provides Battle Shout which buffs Warriors, Shamans, Rogues and Feral Druids
-Enhancement Shaman - Provides Windfury (if he is droppinig Grace of Air instead, this is a mistake, if there is a warrior in the group he should ALWAYS drop WF), Strength of Earth and Unleash Rage - All of these benefit Warriors and Rogues, and all of them except WF benefit Druids and Shaman
-3 Other MELEE - Rogues, Ret Paladins or Feral Druids

A Feral Druid provides 5% Crit which is about 3% more damage, which is about the same as a Ret Pally, if you don't have 3 rogues or another DPS Warrior, then you can slot a Feral in there.

What you can see: NONE of those buffs benefit a hunter, Strength of Earth and Battle Shout Benefit the Hunter's Pet, and Leader of the Pack helps the hunter, but you are far better off putting the Hunter and Feral together with any other hunters and having them drop GoA.

The DPS gain from the hunter buff doesn't even come close to the DPS lost by a rogue from not being in the right group (you lose about 1/3 of your potential DPS).

If you "melee group leader" still insists on buffing himself (which is all he is doing) at the expense of total raid DPS (which is what really matters), then talk to someone who can get through to him. Basically he is building a group that is ideal for himself and gives him all the buffs he can get, but it isn't helping the raid, a hunter has no business in a melee group unless you are only running 4 melee, and even then you are better off putting the tank in there.

The hunter is far better off in another group getting Grace of Air, Mana Spring, etc from a Resto Shaman and you should put a Feral in there as well because Hunters benefit far more from the Crit Aura then Rogues, Warriors, or Shaman.
#3068SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Dampfbrumsel
Originally Posted by Hanos View Post
Some bullet points to take to your raid leader:
-Battle Shout only affects MELEE Attack Power (so the hunter gets nothing from being in a group with a warrior)
-Unleash Rage only affects MELEE Attack Power (so the hunter gets nothing from being in a group with an Enhancement Shaman).
-Strength of Earth doesn't do much at all for a hunter if anything
/snip
This is not correct. As most hunters are BM, the pet plays a major role in their DPS composition. While a hunter will gain noticably less DPS from a Battle Shout, he'll still see some effect. I myself am by no means a hunter expert, but claiming that hunters will not gain anything from melee buffs is wrong.
#3069SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2 Aldriana
Hunters do gain something from Battle Shout and Unleashed Rage on their pet. However, as their pet is about a quarter of their total damage, I don't think there's much argument that they gain vastly less from it than do meleers. So while the exact details of the argument are incorrect, the conclusion that putting a hunter in the melee group is a complete and total waste is still valid.
#3070SourcePosted on <=2.0.0drumbum
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
So Drums of War are clearly superior.
Obviously this was just a typo and Aldriana meant to conclude that Drums of Battle are clearly superior, not Drums of War.
#3071SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Salvador
Guys, a great thread that has explained to me quite a bit on how rogues can excel! There is something that is bothering me, though, and it concerns weapon expertise.

I understand that the more points you have in it, the less is the chance that a boss will dodge or parry your attack. But when fighting a boss as a rogue you are always positioned behind him, which means he cannot parry or dodge your attacks (right?). If that is the case, then is it correct to conclude that +weapon expertise is useless when fighting bosses?

I doubt this is the case, since I have read on a few reputable forums that it is very good to have plenty of +hit and +weapon expertise. So there must be something I am not taking into consideration. What is it?
#3072SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Slapstick
Bosses can still dodge attacks from behind.
#3073SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Salvador
Originally Posted by Slapstick View Post
Bosses can still dodge attacks from behind.
Bastards! Thanks for the quick answer. Now I know I really need to go to the Magister's Terrace to get THAT trinket...
#3074SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Caladnei
To be more specific, every mob can dodge from behind. Players can not.
#3075SourcePosted on <=2.0.0crzyazn
Review and Recommends for my guy

Just wanted to see what you guys thought of my current setup for my guy, granted i will prob go with Combat fist+sword.

Armory Link:
The World of Warcraft Armory

Gear wise i do have 2-3 pieces of T4 in my bank but went with that setup. With the chest piece being pvp gear im plannin on goin with the 2.4 new badge chest as soon as i get enough badges.

If there are things that needs to be changed please let me know i will take any tips with great appreciation.

Lately ive went to combat fists, was combat swords, to see if my dps and damage would b up'd. before with combat swords i usually hovered around #6-10 spot in dmg and usually #3-5 spot in dps. i used DP on OH as always whenever windfury was down but when it wasnt i usually went IP on MH and DP on OH. rotations are a bit flaiky at times since i kinda just go a couple CP(2-3), SnD, couple CD(3),couple CD, eviscerate, and etc.

when i switched to combat fists i now hover around #3-5 spot in dmg and #2-4 in dps. had psns typically the same as swords and so were rotations on CPs and Finishing moves. so overall it went up a bit but not drastically and still behind the other rogues in my guild, which are always around the #1-2 spot in dmg. reading over the huge information at the beginning of the thread has now made me just stick to the 1s/5r to up my dmg and dps, along with goin Combat Fist+swoird.


are there any suggestions in wat i could possibly do, besides the things ive mention, to increase dmg and dps? just feeling a bit shameful to be a rogue and not b on top charts, where i should b.
#3076SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Caladnei
Get yourself a spreadsheet of your choosing linked in the first post in this thread and compare your equip options to find out what's best for you. Find yourself a leatherworker for a suitable trousers enchantment (which will be recommended in aforementioned spreadsheet). Always heed the 7 commandmends of rogue dps. Mind your rotation, watch your procs. Everything you need is to be found in the first post.
Invest time and hard work to farm badges - probably by far the most effective way to upgrade your equip (and thus your dps) at your level of progression.
#3077SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Dampfbrumsel
Originally Posted by Aldriana View Post
Hunters do gain something from Battle Shout and Unleashed Rage on their pet. However, as their pet is about a quarter of their total damage, I don't think there's much argument that they gain vastly less from it than do meleers. So while the exact details of the argument are incorrect, the conclusion that putting a hunter in the melee group is a complete and total waste is still valid.
I am not arguing that putting hunters in the melee group is generally a good idea, but depending on the composition of the raid, it can actually make sense.
To illustrate it, here's an example from on of our recent raids: Group 1 is the tank group (2 prot warriors, 1 paladin, 1 r-shaman, X), group 2's the melee one (1 Enhancer, 1 Arms warrior, 3 rogues). The other groups are filled with casters. Now there's one BM hunter in the raid. For several reasons, mostly encounter dependent, there's no room for him in group 3-5. So we could put him in group 1, where all the support he'd get would be an untalented Battle Shout for his pet while his pets Ferocious Inspiration would only increase the tanks DPS (1000 DPS * 0.03 = 30 DPS), or we could switch a rogue in group 1 and put the hunter in group 2. The rogue would lose around 300 DPS (according to the Gear spreadsheet) from this switch and the hunter would gain around 100 personal DPS (more like 180 DPS according to my guilds hunter, but since I don't trust him that much and I myself know very little about hunters, I chose a conservative value). So there's 200 + 30 DPS to be covered by Ferocious Inspiration. For that to happen, the other 4 DDs (2 rogues [2500 DPS, 2300 DPS], 1 arms warrior [1500 DPS], 1 enh-shaman [1900 DPS]) need to put out a total DPS of >7667. This is the case.
The most debatable variable here is the hunters gain from the melee buffs and I guess we all know too little about that. If someone could prove me wrong, I'd be genuinely pleased though!

Summary: An unusually poor group composition can call for an unusual group setup, sometimes even kicking a rogue out of a melee group in favour of a huntard.

And since this discussion has left the field of rogue theorycrafting and is now somewhere between hunter DPS and raid leading, I suggest we drop it or take it some place else
#3078SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Towelette
Originally Posted by Dampfbrumsel View Post
I am not arguing that putting hunters in the melee group is generally a good idea, but depending on the composition of the raid, it can actually make sense.
To illustrate it, here's an example from on of our recent raids: Group 1 is the tank group (2 prot warriors, 1 paladin, 1 r-shaman, X), group 2's the melee one (1 Enhancer, 1 Arms warrior, 3 rogues). The other groups are filled with casters. Now there's one BM hunter in the raid. For several reasons, mostly encounter dependent, there's no room for him in group 3-5. So we could put him in group 1, where all the support he'd get would be an untalented Battle Shout for his pet while his pets Ferocious Inspiration would only increase the tanks DPS (1000 DPS * 0.03 = 30 DPS), or we could switch a rogue in group 1 and put the hunter in group 2. The rogue would lose around 300 DPS (according to the Gear spreadsheet) from this switch and the hunter would gain around 100 personal DPS (more like 180 DPS according to my guilds hunter, but since I don't trust him that much and I myself know very little about hunters, I chose a conservative value). So there's 200 + 30 DPS to be covered by Ferocious Inspiration. For that to happen, the other 4 DDs (2 rogues [2500 DPS, 2300 DPS], 1 arms warrior [1500 DPS], 1 enh-shaman [1900 DPS]) need to put out a total DPS of >7667. This is the case.
The most debatable variable here is the hunters gain from the melee buffs and I guess we all know too little about that. If someone could prove me wrong, I'd be genuinely pleased though!

Summary: An unusually poor group composition can call for an unusual group setup, sometimes even kicking a rogue out of a melee group in favour of a huntard.

And since this discussion has left the field of rogue theorycrafting and is now somewhere between hunter DPS and raid leading, I suggest we drop it or take it some place else
You neglected to explain why placing the Hunter in one of the other three groups was not a possibility. This is a pretty important fact considering your entire argument is based on it.

Beyond that though, I guess when there's a subpar composition it may make sense to have "different" group structures, but not many guilds are in the business of running with bad raid comps.
#3079SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Trivia
Posting my very first message here. Before I go on would like to say that this has been a very helpful forum ( thanks EJ ! ) for various classes.

If I'm posting this on the wrong thread, my apoligies - but didn't find another suitable thread for this.

On to my question :

First off : link to webstats report of last night's SSC raid Here

I was comparing myself to the other combat sword rogue ( Ordos )
and he's not that far behind me in total damage and dps ( even above me on some vashj attempts )

I've been looking at his talent build ( practically the same as mine ) and gear he is using - and i should be normally way above him, DPS & dmg wise. I've also compared his stats to mine ( i have much higher hit rating, that's about the only obvious thing that i can see ). My agility is also higher, so i don't really get it. What am I doing wrong - or am I just fine and shouldn't i worry ?

Secondly , on the hit & miss ratings.

Very weird thing with misses, I got more miss on sinister then on auto attack and Ordos got more on autoattack. I thought sinister strike required less hit rating to cap than the auto attack.

I'm 300% certain that i was nicely positioned in the back for the tidewalker fight.

Can anyone shed some light on that
#3080SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Towelette
Originally Posted by Trivia View Post
I was comparing myself to the other combat sword rogue ( Ordos )
and he's not that far behind me in total damage and dps ( even above me on some vashj attempts )

I've been looking at his talent build ( practically the same as mine ) and gear he is using - and i should be normally way above him, DPS & dmg wise. I've also compared his stats to mine ( i have much higher hit rating, that's about the only obvious thing that i can see ). My agility is also higher, so i don't really get it. What am I doing wrong - or am I just fine and shouldn't i worry ?
On the Tidewalker kill you were far above him. On the Vashj attempts where he beat you, his DPS in-time was significantly higher than yours. Basically, he did more damage than you because he got onto the mobs faster than you did. It could be reaction speed, his use of Sprint compared to yours, something like that.

Originally Posted by Trivia View Post
Secondly , on the hit & miss ratings.

Very weird thing with misses, I got more miss on sinister then on auto attack and Ordos got more on autoattack. I thought sinister strike required less hit rating to cap than the auto attack.

I'm 300% certain that i was nicely positioned in the back for the tidewalker fight.

Can anyone shed some light on that
You're looking at total misses -- this includes dodges and parries. If you bring up your Sinister Strikes on WWS and click the line to expand for more details, you'll see that your Sinister Strike misses were actually the boss dodging your SS, not you outright missing it. Expertise is the only way to reduce this, so you may want to make some serious efforts towards getting a Shard of Contempt from Heroic Magister's Terrace if you haven't already. It would be a pretty significant upgrade to either of the trinkets you have equipped now.
#3081SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Trivia
You're looking at total misses -- this includes dodges and parries. If you bring up your Sinister Strikes on WWS and click the line to expand for more details, you'll see that your Sinister Strike misses were actually the boss dodging your SS, not you outright missing it. Expertise is the only way to reduce this, so you may want to make some serious efforts towards getting a Shard of Contempt from Heroic Magister's Terrace if you haven't already. It would be a pretty significant upgrade to either of the trinkets you have equipped now.
Didn't look that far. Seems the miss rate is not that big of an issue. Also saw that i haven't used Blade Flurry enough, compared to the other rogues.

Have been trying to get that trinket, after 7 runs still hasn't dropped for me =/

Other then that, think gear+equipment wise i'm pretty much set, don't think I have to regem.

Just spent 100 badges on the scryers pants, next upgrade will be the ring ( angelista's revenge ) for 50 badges.
#3082SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Primalr
Originally Posted by Dampfbrumsel View Post
I am not arguing that putting hunters in the melee group is generally a good idea, but depending on the composition of the raid, it can actually make sense.
To illustrate it, here's an example from on of our recent raids: Group 1 is the tank group (2 prot warriors, 1 paladin, 1 r-shaman, X), group 2's the melee one (1 Enhancer, 1 Arms warrior, 3 rogues). The other groups are filled with casters. Now there's one BM hunter in the raid. For several reasons, mostly encounter dependent, there's no room for him in group 3-5. So we could put him in group 1, where all the support he'd get would be an untalented Battle Shout for his pet while his pets Ferocious Inspiration would only increase the tanks DPS (1000 DPS * 0.03 = 30 DPS), or we could switch a rogue in group 1 and put the hunter in group 2. The rogue would lose around 300 DPS (according to the Gear spreadsheet) from this switch and the hunter would gain around 100 personal DPS (more like 180 DPS according to my guilds hunter, but since I don't trust him that much and I myself know very little about hunters, I chose a conservative value). So there's 200 + 30 DPS to be covered by Ferocious Inspiration. For that to happen, the other 4 DDs (2 rogues [2500 DPS, 2300 DPS], 1 arms warrior [1500 DPS], 1 enh-shaman [1900 DPS]) need to put out a total DPS of >7667. This is the case.
The most debatable variable here is the hunters gain from the melee buffs and I guess we all know too little about that. If someone could prove me wrong, I'd be genuinely pleased though!

Summary: An unusually poor group composition can call for an unusual group setup, sometimes even kicking a rogue out of a melee group in favour of a huntard.

And since this discussion has left the field of rogue theorycrafting and is now somewhere between hunter DPS and raid leading, I suggest we drop it or take it some place else
First of all.. It was previously stated that a rogue loose approx 1/3 of his dps without a good group. And you say this is 300 dps, so that rogue should be 900 dps then... Then you state the other melee dps deals 7667/4 = 1916 dps each... Seems quite skewed approximations in my opinion. Maybe if you have a group with 5x full T6 and one single rogue with blue gear it can be justified. Is this the case?

Then you forgot to measure in the fact that Feroicous Inspiration buffs ANY damage aswell, so putting the hunter in a group with ANY other dps will increase their dps, hence contributing to raid dps without having to gimp one specific rogue.
#3083SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Arindelest
Originally Posted by Primalr View Post
First of all.. It was previously stated that a rogue loose approx 1/3 of his dps without a good group. And you say this is 300 dps, so that rogue should be 900 dps then... Then you state the other melee dps deals 7667/4 = 1916 dps each... Seems quite skewed approximations in my opinion. Maybe if you have a group with 5x full T6 and one single rogue with blue gear it can be justified. Is this the case?

Then you forgot to measure in the fact that Feroicous Inspiration buffs ANY damage aswell, so putting the hunter in a group with ANY other dps will increase their dps, hence contributing to raid dps without having to gimp one specific rogue.
1/3 was a rough approximation, perhaps based on the idea that the rogue would lose WF and Battle Shout as well as everything else. 300 seems more accurate -- but possibly a bit low. I, for example, lose 370 DPS in the above posited scenario (T6-level gear; we're 5/5 9/9 0/6), pushing the DPS reqs for the other group members up further. On the other hand, 1916 DPS is easily attainable for any guild in Sunwell among a melee group. Bottom line is that under almost every reasonable circumstance, putting a hunter in a melee group is silly.
#3084SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Dampfbrumsel
Originally Posted by Primalr View Post
First of all.. It was previously stated that a rogue loose approx 1/3 of his dps without a good group. And you say this is 300 dps, so that rogue should be 900 dps then... Then you state the other melee dps deals 7667/4 = 1916 dps each... Seems quite skewed approximations in my opinion. Maybe if you have a group with 5x full T6 and one single rogue with blue gear it can be justified. Is this the case?

Then you forgot to measure in the fact that Feroicous Inspiration buffs ANY damage aswell, so putting the hunter in a group with ANY other dps will increase their dps, hence contributing to raid dps without having to gimp one specific rogue.
I had a wall of text lined up, but Firefox crashed on me, so here's the short version:
Losing 1/3 of his DPS going from what to what? In my example, the rogue went from a twisting enhancement shaman to an unskilled WF totem and from a fully skilled / sapphired battle shout to a basic one. With these changes, a rogue geared like me loses 300 DPS (check the gear spreadsheet if you don't trust me).
And again, the rogue DPS was not guessed, but taken from the gear spreadsheet. The other two estimates on the other hand were taken from WWS logs, so there might be a slight inaccuracy, but nothing that would have changed the outcome.
And as stated before, the other groups were untouchable for several rather complex and mostly idiotic reasons. Healers and their hiccups, hn?

This will be my last post regarding this subject. I feel we've left the topic of this thread behind us miles ago and it's not leading anywhere anyway. Putting a hunter in a melee group is usually a silly idea, but not always.
#3085SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2 Hanos
Originally Posted by Dampfbrumsel View Post
And as stated before, the other groups were untouchable for several rather complex and mostly idiotic reasons. Healers and their hiccups, hn?
This is the problem. Screwing a rogue over and losing total raid DPS because you have a bunch of whiny healers, and no one willing to tell them to "Shut up and pot", means that you are optimizing a stupid situation, if you eliminate the stupid situation, then you eliminate the reason for screwing over the rogue. If you only have 1 Hunter in a raid, first off he should be survival, but if he is BM, he will normally benefit more from being in a caster group where he can get mana spring, mana tide, and a shadow priest and run a 3:2 rotation, while buffing all the casters. Your scenario is essentially net even, this is an improvement.
#3086SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2 Shaker
To sum up what I believe Hanos is saying is - the biggest optimization you can do on a stupid situation is to clean up the stupidity. Theorycrafting the best hunter shot rotations in +dmg gear isn't worthwhile, and neither is 'should i put the rogue in the healer group or the caster dps group'.
#3087SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Left
Originally Posted by Dampfbrumsel View Post
I had a wall of text lined up, but Firefox crashed on me, so here's the short version:
Losing 1/3 of his DPS going from what to what? In my example, the rogue went from a twisting enhancement shaman to an unskilled WF totem and from a fully skilled / sapphired battle shout to a basic one. With these changes, a rogue geared like me loses 300 DPS (check the gear spreadsheet if you don't trust me).
In my guild, the MT group runs Warrior/Paladin/Resto Druid/Warlock/Shaman. The only shout in the group is Commanding; the totem is often GoA depending on the avoidance requirements for the fight. Thus, for my guild dropping a rogue in there somewhere loses WF entirely, drops to untalented GoA, and doesn't get a battle shout at all. That's likely to be more than 300 DPS lost, especially when factoring in the loss of Unleashed Rage as well.
#3088SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Dragonus-Drenden
Question on Expertise

Hello,

I am a primarily raiding rogue, my guild currently has cleared Gruul's a few times, attempts on Mag's ( Got close ), and is starting into early SSC and TK atm.

My question is; How important is expertise to have at my level of progression? And if it is, what should i roughly be at?

Also, I currently am Fist/Sword spec, and i have been told that this is a stronger spec then Sword/Sword for SSC and early TK. Any thoughts or opinions on whether this is correct?

Thanks
#3089SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Caspian
Expertise is always important since mobs can always dodge you, even if you are behind them. There is no magic number for expertise until you've hit the cap. For those check the first post of this thread and use the spreadsheet at the bottom of that post.
#3090SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2amtracker1
Originally Posted by Dragonus-Drenden View Post
Hello,

I am a primarily raiding rogue, my guild currently has cleared Gruul's a few times, attempts on Mag's ( Got close ), and is starting into early SSC and TK atm.

My question is; How important is expertise to have at my level of progression? And if it is, what should i roughly be at?

Also, I currently am Fist/Sword spec, and i have been told that this is a stronger spec then Sword/Sword for SSC and early TK. Any thoughts or opinions on whether this is correct?

Thanks
All you need to do is make sure you get a [Shard of Contempt] from H MGT.

That will give you all the expertise you need for your progression level.
#3091SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2mmreed
Hello fellow rogues.

I have been reading through the many pages here, and would like to solicit some advice and help.

I am a combat dagger rogue.
The World of Warcraft Armory

Currently my rotation is use Sinister Strike to build 4CPs then do a SnD. Use SinStrike to build 5CPs and do a rupture. By the time I sinstrike 4 CPs, its time to renew Snd (has a few seconds left).. so basically I repeat the sequence.

In looking at the damage formulas, it looks like it would be better if I switched to Backstabs to generate my CPs. They would generate slower, but the BS dmg would be better than the SinStrike. Am I looking at this the right way?

Also - I have tried looking over my stats and gear to see if there is anything I should change. Not the actual gear yet, but the gems and enchants - I havent noticed any, but I would like some of the better versed players to take a look.

My main goal is to put out as much DPS as I can witht he current gear that I have. My intent is to upgrade via badge items as soon as possible.
#3092SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2 Aldriana
Sinister striking as a dagger rogue is, if you'll pardon me for saying so, beyond stupid. There are occasionally times when you don't have a choice in the matter, but as a general rule you want to be using backstab whenever you possibly can if you're using daggers. If you prefer to use SS, you should get yourself some good swords/fists/maces; the Vanir's fists from badges are a nice option if you wish to go that route.
#3093SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Stabmaster
Originally Posted by mmreed View Post
Hello fellow rogues.

I have been reading through the many pages here, and would like to solicit some advice and help.

I am a combat dagger rogue.
The World of Warcraft Armory

Currently my rotation is use Sinister Strike to build 4CPs then do a SnD. Use SinStrike to build 5CPs and do a rupture. By the time I sinstrike 4 CPs, its time to renew Snd (has a few seconds left).. so basically I repeat the sequence.

In looking at the damage formulas, it looks like it would be better if I switched to Backstabs to generate my CPs. They would generate slower, but the BS dmg would be better than the SinStrike. Am I looking at this the right way?

Also - I have tried looking over my stats and gear to see if there is anything I should change. Not the actual gear yet, but the gems and enchants - I havent noticed any, but I would like some of the better versed players to take a look.

My main goal is to put out as much DPS as I can witht he current gear that I have. My intent is to upgrade via badge items as soon as possible.
1) Using Sinister Strike as your main attack for Combat Dagger is HORRIBLE. You should be using Backstab.
2) You shouldn't even be Combat Dagger, switch to Mutilate.
#3094SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Ruqas
Originally Posted by mmreed View Post
Hello fellow rogues.

I have been reading through the many pages here, and would like to solicit some advice and help.

I am a combat dagger rogue.
The World of Warcraft Armory

Currently my rotation is use Sinister Strike to build 4CPs then do a SnD. Use SinStrike to build 5CPs and do a rupture. By the time I sinstrike 4 CPs, its time to renew Snd (has a few seconds left).. so basically I repeat the sequence.

In looking at the damage formulas, it looks like it would be better if I switched to Backstabs to generate my CPs. They would generate slower, but the BS dmg would be better than the SinStrike. Am I looking at this the right way?

Also - I have tried looking over my stats and gear to see if there is anything I should change. Not the actual gear yet, but the gems and enchants - I havent noticed any, but I would like some of the better versed players to take a look.

My main goal is to put out as much DPS as I can witht he current gear that I have. My intent is to upgrade via badge items as soon as possible.
At the risk of sounding like an ass, is this a joke? Seriously, dude, wtf?

At your gear level, you should know this by now. Of course, backstab does more damage. Sinister Strike is an absolutely terrible substitute for your main damaging move with a combat daggers build. And you're not even specced right. Go 15/41/5. Dude, get your shit together.
#3095SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Dragonus-Drenden
Question about possible weapon upgrade

Hey,

I've been debating this for a few days now, and im wondering if the Spiteblade off Netherspite would be a worthwhile upgrade from my S1 Glad. Fist .......

If you have any thoughts, plz feel free to take a look at my gear on the armory and get back here.

Thanks,

Any input is greatly appreciated

D
#3096SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Ashere
Originally Posted by Dragonus-Drenden View Post
Hey,

I've been debating this for a few days now, and im wondering if the Spiteblade off Netherspite would be a worthwhile upgrade from my S1 Glad. Fist .......

If you have any thoughts, plz feel free to take a look at my gear on the armory and get back here.

Thanks,

Any input is greatly appreciated

D
Short answer: No.
Long story: Spiteblade has a horrible droprate, about every rogue who wanted it at first suddenly went to AV and EotS when S1 gear became wellfare, and the only reason why some still want spiteblade is: out of spite, for the sodded thing never dropping in 20+ kara raids (if not more)
#3097SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Dragonus-Drenden
However, if it does happen to drop, is it a worthwhile upgrade?

That was more my question .... if it doesn't drop, then it doesn't drop. But if, by chance, it does ... is it worth switching to? Do that +stats on it make it worth the loss in DPS from the Fist?
#3098SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Caspian
I did a general switch based on how you're specced. Yes, if the Spiteblade drops and you switch to 5/5 Sword spec, then Spiteblade is an upgrade.
For future questions like these, might I suggest using the Rogue Spreadsheet. It will help you get your answer much more quickly.
#3099SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Furien
Originally Posted by Dragonus-Drenden View Post
Hey,

I've been debating this for a few days now, and im wondering if the Spiteblade off Netherspite would be a worthwhile upgrade from my S1 Glad. Fist .......

If you have any thoughts, plz feel free to take a look at my gear on the armory and get back here.

Thanks,

Any input is greatly appreciated

D
Plug it into one of the spreadsheets because that's what we have to do to give you an answer.

However I think you'll find Spiteblade a sidegrade, the S1 weapons are slightly superior to Spiteblade.
#3100SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Annihilus
Do an above poster about Expertise, it's frickin' sweet, period. I'm about Expertise capped (not now I'm in Pvp gear and spec) and the other night against Vashj my Sinister Strike miss% was less than 1%, which is a personal record. My missed melee swings were like 1.2% misses.

Question, a Rogue in my guild got the Claw of Molten Fury but he already had Vanir's Fist of Brutality for his main hand. He also has the OH and now has the two-piece set. I ran him through the Rogue DPS Spreadsheet with his current gear/spec and then again with the Claw replacing the Vanir's fist and it shows him losing 17DPS. He is arguing the point that the proc rate on the weapon will make up the difference. In my opinion, I don't see how because 17DPS is well..., 17DPS. Does the proc rate of the Claw of Molten Fury's set bonus make up for the loss of DPS? Please somebody chime in on this.

Thanks,

Anni
#3101SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Feist-Mok
Originally Posted by Annihilus View Post
Do an above poster about Expertise, it's frickin' sweet, period. I'm about Expertise capped (not now I'm in Pvp gear and spec) and the other night against Vashj my Sinister Strike miss% was less than 1%, which is a personal record. My missed melee swings were like 1.2% misses.

Question, a Rogue in my guild got the Claw of Molten Fury but he already had Vanir's Fist of Brutality for his main hand. He also has the OH and now has the two-piece set. I ran him through the Rogue DPS Spreadsheet with his current gear/spec and then again with the Claw replacing the Vanir's fist and it shows him losing 17DPS. He is arguing the point that the proc rate on the weapon will make up the difference. In my opinion, I don't see how because 17DPS is well..., 17DPS. Does the proc rate of the Claw of Molten Fury's set bonus make up for the loss of DPS? Please somebody chime in on this.

Thanks,

Anni
I believe the spreadsheet models the proc. Even if it doesn't, it's terrible, and not worth chasing.
#3102SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Roefyll
I used the Molten Fury set for a short while.

I added the proc modelling to the DPS spreadsheet myself from my own WWS stats testing, since there was no data available at the time. (The Molten Fury set IS in the official DPS spreadsheet now, complete with proc)

They were worth using during that short window between 2.4 going live and the heroic badge vendor being unlocked.
#3103SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Annihilus
Originally Posted by Roefyll View Post
I used the Molten Fury set for a short while.

I added the proc modelling to the DPS spreadsheet myself from my own WWS stats testing, since there was no data available at the time. (The Molten Fury set IS in the official DPS spreadsheet now, complete with proc)

They were worth using during that short window between 2.4 going live and the heroic badge vendor being unlocked.
Sweet. Yeah, I couldn't see any reason for him to make the switch. The Badge Fist is much better. NOt that the CoMF is bad, it's just not better than Vanir's.

Anybody know what the internal proc is on the Claw of Molten Fury?
#3104SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Meiryuu
Swords or Fists?

Hello everyone,
I'm currently trying to determine if Combat swords with Heartless and Akil-zon's Talonblade(dual mongoose) would be superior to Combat fists with dual Vanir's (also both mongoose). I currently have T4 set two bonus with some badge gear; my guild is Pre-SSC. I tried using the spread sheet to figure out if I should enchant the swords or spend the badges on the fists but the spreadsheet keeps crashing on my laptop. I've looked through a lot of the posts hoping to see if anyone else has had the same issue/debate. So if anyone can help me out it would be much appreciated.

Thank you,
Meiryuu-70 BE Rogue Feathermoon
#3105SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Aaberg
Meiryuu, what system and program are you using?
#3106SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Meiryuu
Vista with 1gig Ram, and Microsoft Office
#3107SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Ozzmar
Originally Posted by Annihilus View Post
Anybody know what the internal proc is on the Claw of Molten Fury?
A tester here said it's about 5%:



Also, saying in two posts what you can say in one will get your hand slapped by a mod.
#3108SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
 Hanos
Originally Posted by mmreed View Post
Hello fellow rogues.

I have been reading through the many pages here, and would like to solicit some advice and help.

I am a combat dagger rogue.
The World of Warcraft Armory

Currently my rotation is use Sinister Strike to build 4CPs then do a SnD. Use SinStrike to build 5CPs and do a rupture. By the time I sinstrike 4 CPs, its time to renew Snd (has a few seconds left).. so basically I repeat the sequence.

In looking at the damage formulas, it looks like it would be better if I switched to Backstabs to generate my CPs. They would generate slower, but the BS dmg would be better than the SinStrike. Am I looking at this the right way?

Also - I have tried looking over my stats and gear to see if there is anything I should change. Not the actual gear yet, but the gems and enchants - I havent noticed any, but I would like some of the better versed players to take a look.

My main goal is to put out as much DPS as I can witht he current gear that I have. My intent is to upgrade via badge items as soon as possible.
I think everyone else missed the fact that you are level 22, in which case none of the discussions here mean anything to you. Get the slowest weapon you can find, and Sinister Strike your way to 70.

Edit - Apparently the link in your profile is wrong - FIX THAT!

Everything everyone else said is correct, look at the spreadsheets, use the recommended rotation, etc. Sinister Strike with daggers is monumentally stupid, but considering Kara and High King are the extent of your raid experience based on gear, it really isn't going to make or break things. Backstab or Mutilate if you want to use dagger, Sinister Strike or Hemo for Swords/Maces/Fists. Your spec is correct, enchants and gems aren't ideal but you have bigger issues before dealing with that.

Last edited by Hanos : 05/23/08 at 10:06 AM.
#3109SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Ditsy
Properly specced and gemmed the two fists will do more dps IMHO.




Originally Posted by Meiryuu View Post
Hello everyone,
I'm currently trying to determine if Combat swords with Heartless and Akil-zon's Talonblade(dual mongoose) would be superior to Combat fists with dual Vanir's (also both mongoose). I currently have T4 set two bonus with some badge gear; my guild is Pre-SSC. I tried using the spread sheet to figure out if I should enchant the swords or spend the badges on the fists but the spreadsheet keeps crashing on my laptop. I've looked through a lot of the posts hoping to see if anyone else has had the same issue/debate. So if anyone can help me out it would be much appreciated.

Thank you,
Meiryuu-70 BE Rogue Feathermoon
#3110SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Xayne
Hi all. I've created a little spread sheet tool for calculating rupture damage. Feedback is welcome and appreciated.

Visual Rupture Calculator
#3111SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Jankage
Originally Posted by Ditsy View Post
Properly specced and gemmed the two fists will do more dps IMHO.
I believe a lot of folks overlook their rogue's race when determining if fists are better than combat swords with the gear available to them.

As a rough general rule of thumb it's suffice it to say the badge fists will come out ahead of combat swords or hybrid fist/sword setup for all rogues who don't have [Blade of Savagery] and who are not human. Human rogues are better off with say [Merciless Gladiator's Quickblade] paired with any sword [Talon of Azshara] and beyond thanks to the expertise racial they enjoy.

So, Meiryuu, yes both Vanir's is going to be the highest DPS for you at this point.
#3112SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2xsjado
Mark of the Champion

Ok i have a [Mark of the Champion] where on the list do you think this trink ranks for BT / SW seeing that almost every boss is a Demon.
#3113SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2ekval
Originally Posted by xsjado View Post
Ok i have a [Mark of the Champion] where on the list do you think this trink ranks for BT / SW seeing that almost every boss is a Demon.
[Bloodlust Brooch] AP in spreadsheet is 118 which should give you some idea. It's not worth to use over some trinkets BT / SW player can obtain (DST / SoC). If you want to be sure which is best for your gear you can always change Bloodlust Brooch's AP to 150 in spreadsheet and check it that way easily.
#3114SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
madman
I am currently trying to write a list of different items and their EP for the combat rogues in the guild. I want rogues to be able to tell if A is better than B so that people dont roll on worse items. So is there a way of getting these estimates on weapons, how do listed dps and speed relate to EP? And also for trinkets and other proc based items it gets a bit complicated. I guess I can just use the spreadsheet to check the rank and list them in order though without an item value

Last edited by madman : 05/25/08 at 10:09 AM.
#3115SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Seleli
The Spreadsheets have the EP values of trinkets and weapon speed/DPS. With so few trinkets and weapon choices out there though, it would be just as easy to list the best to the worst, as that really doesn't change.

That being said, each gear level, and different set of gear is going to give different EP weights. I'm basically T4 geared and my EP weights look nothing like those in the first post. I've found the easiest way is to do my own research (IE use the spreadsheets myself), and use Pawn in-game configured with the EP values from the spreadsheets for my character, instead of relying on those for someone else. IMO, if you have time to raid, you have 10-15 minutes to devote to entering your gear into a spreadsheet, so you can see the best upgrades for *you.*
#3116SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2
Edited onPatch 2.4.2
madman
Indeed I agree. I have just written a guide for the guildies including advice on how to gem, enchant and playing style, which attacks to use etc so that everyone can get that part right. That is the most important thing, more so that the gear part IMO. I am trying to keep it as simple and TC/math-free as possible to motivate people. So I just want to make it really simple on my 2nd part which is a list of gear, where i plan to just use the T5 values which is the level we're at more or less. I could point ppl to the spreadsheet but I remember that I had trouble getting it to work initially so I don't want to push anything on people who are less inclined.

Last edited by madman : 05/25/08 at 11:13 AM.
#3117SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Arindelest
Originally Posted by xsjado View Post
Ok i have a [Mark of the Champion] where on the list do you think this trink ranks for BT / SW seeing that almost every boss is a Demon.
...it's just 150 EP, compare to other trinkets using the spreadsheet.
#3118SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2Ima krank don
Nervous

After about an hour yesterday deciding between getting the 105 badge dagger or the 105 mh fist I went with the dagger.. I spent a lot of time researching and getting opinions and I was already 41/20/0 so I went with the dagger , saving for OH dagger now. My question is did I make a mistake? I would have been combat/fist spec untill I could afford the OH fist and in the mean time I'd have been using the mh fist and quickblade. But 41/20/0 mut does out dps combat fists (Not cswords) right?
#3119SourcePosted on Patch 2.4.2 Vulajin
The Theorycrafting Think Tank version of this article is now live! Access it here:

Rogue: PvE DPS

Please continue to use this thread for discussion of any of the topics in the article. Responses to the article are to be used only for corrections to its content or concrete suggestions for improvement. In the near future, I will be recasting this thread as a general rogue PvE DPS discussion thread. I will keep the first post up to date with summaries of theorycraft relating to current events in rogue PvE DPS, including (when the beta begins) information about Wrath of the Lich King talents and abilities. Stay tuned!
#3120SourcePosted on <=2.0.0tremotrav
Im starting a rog for another alt, and was wondering what is better, human or NE rogue? does that +5 sword bonus really make that big of a diff?
#3121SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Shych
Originally Posted by tremotrav View Post
Im starting a rog for another alt, and was wondering what is better, human or NE rogue? does that +5 sword bonus really make that big of a diff?
Originally Posted by Original Poster View Post
0/2 Weapon Expertise, non-Human: 103
1/2 Weapon Expertise, non-Human: 83
2/2 Weapon Expertise, non-Human: 64
0/2 Weapon Expertise, Human (wielding swords or maces): 83
1/2 Weapon Expertise, Human: 64
2/2 Weapon Expertise, Human: 44
This is the diffrence. You'll need 20 less expertise
#3122SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Jakani
Originally Posted by Ima krank don View Post
But 41/20/0 mut does out dps combat fists (Not cswords) right?
No, it doesn't. How they compare will depend a bit on your progression/gear level, but in general mutilate does not do as much damage as combat fists, combat fist/sword, or combat swords.
#3123SourcePosted on <=2.0.0 Vulajin
At Aldriana's suggestion, I'll be asking the mods to close this thread, and I have opened a new one for discussion of rogue PvE DPS, including Wrath talents/abilities (when appropriate). The new thread may be found here:

[Rogue] PvE DPS / WotLK Discussion
#3124SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Lorretine
Other races (or humans with other weapon types) can make use of it providing they have at most one of the following items: [Belt of One-Hundred Deaths], [Dragonscale-Encrusted Longblade], [Slayer's Boots], or any other item with more than 20 expertise rating.
Hey all,

Right, I am a night elf rogue raiding gruul karazhan and soon moving to SCC/TK. I recently obtained Shard of Contempt from heroic MGT. But I am a bit confused now, if I would have to believe the above statement, equipping the shard and not capping your expertise with another item is a wasted trinket slot? Or would it still be usefull to get as close to the cap as possible with this trinket?

Hope somebody can clarify this, I am sitting on 255 hit rating at the moment still using Romulo's Poison Vial. I had a lot of other hit rating stuff too but the spreadsheet I used recommended I would stack some more attack power for my Combat Mace/Fist (dragonstrike/vanir off hand) build.

How come hit rating has such a little effect on my dps at my gear level?

Our gruul (and some other fights), right before I upgraded my Trinket, any advise would be greaty appreciated.

WWS STATS

EDIT: Armory is down, but here is my Rogue none the less.

Armory Downtime

EDIT: Oops, just read the latest post.
#3125SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Giltaur
New spreadsheeter, some help needed.

Dear EJ's,

I have a small question, maybe one of you can help me out.

Now, I'm finally using the spreadsheet to finetune my gear. Atm my total dps equals 1493,91 with 279 Hit. I can buy [Angelista's Revenge] to replace my [Violet signet of the Master's Assassin]. According to the spreadsheet this will raise my total dps to 1508,85. Now this is a no-brainer, right? Yet, what makes me doubt a little is that my Hitrating will drop to 254. Is the spreadsheet actually taking into account the specific value of Hitrating to a rogue? If so, it seems I can safely wander even more from the 300+ Hit I had some time ago.

I could buy Tricker's Stickyfingers as well, raising my total dps to 1512,30 even. But...this will be at the costs of another 17 Hit + my 2pc Netherblade armorbonus. Leaving me at 237 Hit. Can you imagine my hesitation as a new user of the spreadsheet?

I would appreciate it if someone could help me a bit what to do.

Cheers,
Giltaur
#3126SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Caladnei
Although this is supposed to be posted into the new thread...

Both of you, did you read the first post? Hit rating is a good stat, but not the only one that increases your dps. There is no magic number you need to reach by all means - if another item means more dps for you, it doesn't matter if your hit rating lowers by equipping it.

@Lorretine: I think you missed the phrase "at most one" in that quote. Meaning, if you don't cap out by using that trinket, you have the second best available trinket for your level of progression in hand. As a night elf, you don't get capped with SoC alone - so you're fine. Just mind the expertise cap (2/2 Weapon Expertise, non-Human: 64) - SoC gives 44, so, plenty of room left to cap.
#3127SourcePosted on <=2.0.0Romerz
Not only did they not read the first post, they seem to have missed reading the post just before their own. If they aren't willing to even have a slight look for their selves...